From haleysumner at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 1 00:05:12 2013 From: haleysumner at sbcglobal.net (haley sumner) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? Message-ID: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hello fellow Nabsters, I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. Thanks, Haley Sumner From sparklylicious at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 00:23:11 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:23:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? Message-ID: <5272f49e.488b440a.2017.7e53@mx.google.com> Haley, I think there are advantages to both. A dog does give the public (especially in college) an opening to start a conversation. However, they are a lot of work. I'm currently working my second dog and we're in a college environment. The advantage to having a cane is that at the end of the day you can just put it away and not have to worry about it. However, with a dog you have to water, feed, play and take them out for bathroom breaks. You may have to take time out of your schedule to take them to the vet for emergency visits. With all this said, I'm still glad I have my dog. She is fantastic in every way possible! This decision is completely up to you because you will be the one responsible for your dog. You have to want to do all that time consuming work, but I think that the end result is worth more. I don't mind all the work that my dog requires because she is a delight, her work is great and she is a living, breathing being. Please email me off list if you have any further questions. Best, Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: haley sumner References: Message-ID: Hi Patrick, I'm a graduate student in Psychology and regularly use SPSS for data analysis. JAWS 14 does work pretty well with the two most recent versions of SPSS (versions 21 and 22). You will need to turn on the screen reader compatibility feature during the installation process by checking a check box. JAWS should start working automatically after the installation is complete, but if this does not happen, go to Control Panel > Ease of Access Center to verify that the option of Enable JAVA Access Bridge is checked. I can't really think of any SPSS-specific JAWS keystrokes. The only thing I would mention is that SPSS displays all output in graphic form, which needs to be exported into Excel or Word by going to File > Export before it is readable with JAWS. I hope this is helpful - Please feel free to let me know if you have any additional questions about the program! Best, Katie On 10/30/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Hi All, > I'm in a research methods class and we're going to be starting SPSS > soon. Has anyone on this list worked with SPSS before? How > user-friendly is it with JAWS? If it's not, is there another program I > can use that will do the same things as SPSS? Any JAWS keystrokes that > I should know beforehand? > Thanks, > Patrick > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Fri Nov 1 00:30:29 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:30:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] questions about SPSS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you don't get a good answer here, we have other lists where you might be more successful, such as blind Math, social-sciences-list, and nfb-science. You can find them all at: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/ Dave At 09:00 PM 10/30/2013, you wrote: >Hi All, >I'm in a research methods class and we're going to be starting SPSS >soon. Has anyone on this list worked with SPSS before? How >user-friendly is it with JAWS? If it's not, is there another program I >can use that will do the same things as SPSS? Any JAWS keystrokes that >I should know beforehand? >Thanks, >Patrick From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 01:00:41 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:00:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] questions about SPSS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Patrick, SPSS is accessible, but the problem is that a license costs money. If you have JAWS on a public computer on campus that has SPSS, then you should be able to use it, but if you need to run software on your own computer, it probably doesn't make sense to buy an SPSS license unless you are planning to use it for multiple semesters. There is a free and easy-to-use stats calculator at www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ that will do a lot of basic stuff. If you know the names of the statistical procedures that your class is doing in SPSS, I can tell you whether GraphPad will work as a free substitute. Alternatively, if the SPSS project is a group project, you could ask someone from your group to email you the output as an Excel file. Best, Arielle On 10/31/13, David Andrews wrote: > If you don't get a good answer here, we have other lists where you > might be more successful, such as blind Math, social-sciences-list, > and nfb-science. You can find them all at: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/ > > Dave > > > At 09:00 PM 10/30/2013, you wrote: >>Hi All, >>I'm in a research methods class and we're going to be starting SPSS >>soon. Has anyone on this list worked with SPSS before? How >>user-friendly is it with JAWS? If it's not, is there another program I >>can use that will do the same things as SPSS? Any JAWS keystrokes that >>I should know beforehand? >>Thanks, >>Patrick > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 01:03:02 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:03:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: > > > Hello fellow Nabsters, > I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. > Thanks, > Haley Sumner > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 1 01:07:12 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 01:07:12 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <358a0218c8794abc9d2000a96a3c80a5@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> I agree! I'd say that canes are more superior, because they're less expensive! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kirt [kirt.crazydude at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: > > > Hello fellow Nabsters, > I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. > Thanks, > Haley Sumner > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 01:13:36 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:13:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <5272f49e.488b440a.2017.7e53@mx.google.com> References: <5272f49e.488b440a.2017.7e53@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Haley, When I was in high school several people from outside the blindness world pressured me to get a guide dog before college. I also knew very few competent blind adults who used canes, so I was pushed toward getting a dog because I thought I needed one to be a competent traveler. I eventually decided to delay getting a dog because at age 18 I didn't feel ready for the responsibility. After delaying for a couple years and meeting a bunch of competent cane travelers in college, I made that a permanent decision. I'm not sure if you too are experiencing pressure to get a dog but if you are, I don't think that should factor into your decision. There are many people who are happy as guide dog users and have a great travel experience. But there are others of us who are equally happy using a cane. I think if you want to get a dog, it should be because you really love dogs, because you like that style of travel, or ideally both. For me, I chose not to for two main reasons. First, I am the kind of traveler who needs to know what's around and be in control. If another being is guiding me I tend to space out and lose track of where I am going. I need to be in contact with things in the environment to keep my bearings and be able to make confident travel decisions. However, some people don't have that problem and they appreciate being guided around obstacles. Second, I like my solitude and am not motivated to have a companion all the time, plus the responsibility and stress that goes along with it. But again, it's a personal choice and for some people it is worth the trouble to have that special bond with a dog. I think you can learn a lot by talking with lots of guide dog users and seeing how well the lifestyle and travel method fits with your personal style. But there is also the reality that you can always switch from cane to dog, but it is harder to turn back once you have decided to commit to have a dog. So, I would not recommend getting a dog unless you feel you are ready and really motivated to have that experience. Best, Arielle On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Haley, > I think there are advantages to both. A dog does give the public > (especially in college) an opening to start a conversation. > However, they are a lot of work. I'm currently working my second > dog and we're in a college environment. The advantage to having > a cane is that at the end of the day you can just put it away and > not have to worry about it. However, with a dog you have to > water, feed, play and take them out for bathroom breaks. You may > have to take time out of your schedule to take them to the vet > for emergency visits. With all this said, I'm still glad I have > my dog. She is fantastic in every way possible! This decision is > completely up to you because you will be the one responsible for > your dog. You have to want to do all that time consuming work, > but I think that the end result is worth more. I don't mind all > the work that my dog requires because she is a delight, her work > is great and she is a living, breathing being. Please email me > off list if you have any further questions. > Best, Hannah > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: haley sumner To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:05:12 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and > why? > > > Hello fellow Nabsters, > I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog > in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am > still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick > with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is > better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to > hearing about your experiences and preferences. > Thanks, > Haley Sumner > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > s%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 01:28:15 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:28:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: > > > Hello fellow Nabsters, > I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. > Thanks, > Haley Sumner > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 01:28:54 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:28:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Employment Mentoring Opportunity for College Students who are Blind In-Reply-To: <52712C840200007700038348@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu> References: <52712C840200007700038348@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu> Message-ID: Hello all, Do you know a college student graduating next year who is legally (or totally) blind? The National Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision (NRTC) is pairing students nationwide with mentors who are also legally blind and working in a similar field of interest. Opportunities include face-to-face mentoring, job shadowing, and networking. We offer career preparation resources and student incentives to participate. Students must be under age 35 and should sign up by December 2013. Professionals who are blind and interested in serving as mentors are also encouraged to apply. For more info, visit http://tiny.cc/mentoring-project. For questions, contact Jamie O’Mally at nrtc2 at colled.msstate.edu, or call 662-325-2001 or toll free at1-800-675-7782. Please share this information with anyone you think may be interested! Thank you, Jamie O’Mally, Ph.D. Assistant Research Professor The National Research and Training Center on Blindness & Low Vision (NRTC) Mississippi State University P.O. Box 6189 Mississippi State, MS 39762 662-325-3151 From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 01:36:14 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:36:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] neonatal nurse In-Reply-To: <1da3574aa9e8440aa471bdbabee62752@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <1da3574aa9e8440aa471bdbabee62752@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Keira, Welcome to the list! I would recommend starting one step at a time, by taking some basic nursing classes. You should not face much, if any, discouragement at this early stage, and the basic classes will help you learn more about the nursing field. If you do decide to continue and get your nursing degree, and run into naysayers later, you will have more detailed knowledge to share with them about how you will do the job as a blind person. I'd imagine that being a PCA is completely accessible, and that being a nurse is mostly accessible. There may be a few things with regard to measuring medications that are not accessible without some tweaking, but you could do it in collaboration with a sighted nurse or medical assistant. I know of blind people who have drawn blood and performed very basic surgical procedures as medical students. There is a book called White Coat, White Cane, written by a blind guy named David Hartman who obtained his M.D. and performed such procedures during his training. Tim Cordes is another blind psychiatrist who went through an M.D. program. Nursing and doctoring are different things, but it seems that if these folks were able to do blood draws nonvisually, you should be able to handle giving injections and other nursing duties. Best, Arielle On 10/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Keira, I must ask this question. > Do you have any sight at all? > If so, you may be able to do some things. > PCA's may require little to no sight. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Keira Davis > [keke.davis91 at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:57 AM > To: sandragayer7 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] neonatal nurse > > Thanks to the both of you. Sandra, I haven't tried career connect yet. > That will be my next look. I talked to Fred, my state president and he > said that he will help me. If I don't become a neonatal nurse, I would > take just being a nurse. It's like it's in my blood. My mom's a nurse, > sisters, aunt, and just everyone. I love going with them to work and > jus trying to help out as best as I can. or, use to love doing it. > School has gotten in the way. I go with my aunt if I'm home. Sh'e a > PCA, Person care assistant. I wonder if that could be something I > could start off doing? > > On 10/30/13, Sandra Gayer wrote: >> Hello Keira, >> State your case as well as you can. Give them your reasons for wanting >> this career and let them know about possible solutions you have come >> up with for the problems ahead. Before they tell you, >> "You can't possibly do this or that," tell them how you are able to do >> this or that. >> >> Have you tried Career Connect? There might be someone there who >> followed the same career path you want and they could give you more >> case specific help. >> >> Very best wishes, >> Sandra. >> >> On 10/30/13, Keira Davis wrote: >>> Hello. For some time now, I have been thinking of a career. I really >>> want to become a neonatal nurse. My questions are for all of the >>> college students. When you had a passion to study something, how did >>> you deal with college authority telling you that it wouldn't be >>> possible? How did you show them that it was, in fact possible for you >>> to do this? This are just some question. I really want to do this, but >>> these are the things i'm afraid i'm going to run into. Please help. If >>> anyone knows someone who could give me some guidance, I would be >>> thankful >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Soprano Singer >> www.sandragayer.com >> >> Broadcast Presenter >> >> www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/keke.davis91%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jeffanel at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 01:42:29 2013 From: jeffanel at gmail.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:42:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Haley, I've ben a guide dog user for just over 2 months, and i'm 16 and this is my first guide dog ever. and I love having a guide dog. For me, having a guide dog has made my traveling a lot more easier. With out having to worry about weather i'm going to fall in to some dranage hole in the side walk which has happened to some one I personaly new, but with a guide dog I just love having that fluid walking, I can say when I was a cane user, I was the best cane user my O&M teacher had, and that is what he told me one day. I love my dog, and like someone else minchened, don't let people pressure you in to getting one, and if you deside to get one, don't let people pressure you in to going some where over some other place. Personal story, I had a person who was trying to pressure me in to going to guide dog foundation in New York, but I looked in to a guide dog school in ohio called Pilot dogs, and I loved it there. Now i'm not going to tell you what I love about it there, because I don't want to influence you to go there or not to go there, you need to deside that if you even want to get one. Like the famious phrase says, "Don't judge a book by its cover." translated to this topic, don't judge a guide dog school by just what is said around in the blind community, call and talk to the staff, and ask the questions that you want to ask, and get to know the staff at the different schools. Feel free to email me off list for anything else. I hope I've helped. On 10/31/13, haley sumner wrote: > > Hello fellow Nabsters, > I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a > year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i > should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all > recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am > looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. > Thanks, > Haley Sumner > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com > -- 73 kd8qiq jeff crouch From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 1 01:52:49 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:52:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52730971.4090403@tysdomain.com> How does one who is a good cane traveler fall into a drainage hole? Your cane would undoubtedly catch that, would it not? I've bumped into stuff when I used a cane (and I still do every so often with a guide), so it's not exactly a full-proof solution to not falling in stuff you shouldn't have fallen in if you were a good cane traveler to begin with. On 10/31/2013 9:42 PM, Jeff Crouch wrote: > Hi Haley, > I've ben a guide dog user for just over 2 months, and i'm 16 and this > is my first guide dog ever. and I love having a guide dog. For me, > having a guide dog has made my traveling a lot more easier. With out > having to worry about weather i'm going to fall in to some dranage > hole in the side walk which has happened to some one I personaly new, > but with a guide dog I just love having that fluid walking, I can say > when I was a cane user, I was the best cane user my O&M teacher had, > and that is what he told me one day. I love my dog, and like someone > else minchened, don't let people pressure you in to getting one, and > if you deside to get one, don't let people pressure you in to going > some where over some other place. Personal story, I had a person who > was trying to pressure me in to going to guide dog foundation in New > York, but I looked in to a guide dog school in ohio called Pilot dogs, > and I loved it there. Now i'm not going to tell you what I love about > it there, because I don't want to influence you to go there or not to > go there, you need to deside that if you even want to get one. Like > the famious phrase says, "Don't judge a book by its cover." > translated to this topic, don't judge a guide dog school by just what > is said around in the blind community, call and talk to the staff, and > ask the questions that you want to ask, and get to know the staff at > the different schools. > > Feel free to email me off list for anything else. > I hope I've helped. > > > > On 10/31/13, haley sumner wrote: >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a >> year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i >> should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all >> recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am >> looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 1 02:02:46 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:02:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <358a0218c8794abc9d2000a96a3c80a5@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, <358a0218c8794abc9d2000a96a3c80a5@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> They are only more superior in one way obviously, and that's due to the money factor you just point out, which really isn't an issue. My guide does an amazing job of getting me from place to place and all I have to do is give him lots of attention and buy him food and the occasional bath (the bath because I don't want to do it myself). I don't really think that's to much to ask. Here's my two cents on it. First, having a dog is fairly useful socially, but there are drawbacks. Mainly that you have to be willing to say no if someone wants to pet your dog sometimes. Second, I've had people talk to me and just ask about O'Mally without bothering to even get my name--there was actually a shirt someone had once that said "I'm with the dog." I heard about it in draining and never really got it, but I'd love to find that shirt now, as it's really true. Your guide will undoubtedly attract a lot of attention--some of it wanted, some of it unwanted. There are a few issues to be aware of, however. First, there are taxis that will just zoom right past you or won't come if they know you have a dog. Obviously this isn't right and people can scream about it (and there are measures being taken to prevent the issue), but it is still an issue. Second, there are people who will not like your dog's fur all over their car if the dog sheds to much. You need to work out something with your roommate if you live on campus and all that as well. It's not a huge drawback, just something to keep in mind. 3) There are obviously a lot of responsibilities that come with having a dog. whether or not you think you can handle them is totally up to you. I honestly believe all of these are factors worth considering. For me, the companionship and awesome work of O'Mally far outweighs the cost of food and thus the cane is obviously not superior. I think one of the most amazing bonuses to traveling with a guide is that you are able to navigate around obsticals without even knowing they're there. I heard this over and over before I got O'Mally, but I never really thought about it to much. Thise irritating poles and chairs on sidewalks and moving people are much easier to navigate--there's honestly nothing better than walking through a mall and your guide zooming you inbetween all sorts of people and stuff you would have usually gotten hung up on with a cane. You are able to train your guide to find stuff as well, which is incredibly nice--no more walking down a wall trailing for that random class in the middle of the hall with no landmarks near by in a huge group of people all socializing right in the middle of the hall. Hope this helps! On 10/31/2013 9:07 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > I agree! > I'd say that canes are more superior, because they're less expensive! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kirt [kirt.crazydude at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >> >> >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 02:07:51 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:07:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, <358a0218c8794abc9d2000a96a3c80a5@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <005f01ced6a7$2b80d8f0$82828ad0$@gmail.com> I really like the finding the proper room or door to a convenient store with no muss no fuss. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? They are only more superior in one way obviously, and that's due to the money factor you just point out, which really isn't an issue. My guide does an amazing job of getting me from place to place and all I have to do is give him lots of attention and buy him food and the occasional bath (the bath because I don't want to do it myself). I don't really think that's to much to ask. Here's my two cents on it. First, having a dog is fairly useful socially, but there are drawbacks. Mainly that you have to be willing to say no if someone wants to pet your dog sometimes. Second, I've had people talk to me and just ask about O'Mally without bothering to even get my name--there was actually a shirt someone had once that said "I'm with the dog." I heard about it in draining and never really got it, but I'd love to find that shirt now, as it's really true. Your guide will undoubtedly attract a lot of attention--some of it wanted, some of it unwanted. There are a few issues to be aware of, however. First, there are taxis that will just zoom right past you or won't come if they know you have a dog. Obviously this isn't right and people can scream about it (and there are measures being taken to prevent the issue), but it is still an issue. Second, there are people who will not like your dog's fur all over their car if the dog sheds to much. You need to work out something with your roommate if you live on campus and all that as well. It's not a huge drawback, just something to keep in mind. 3) There are obviously a lot of responsibilities that come with having a dog. whether or not you think you can handle them is totally up to you. I honestly believe all of these are factors worth considering. For me, the companionship and awesome work of O'Mally far outweighs the cost of food and thus the cane is obviously not superior. I think one of the most amazing bonuses to traveling with a guide is that you are able to navigate around obsticals without even knowing they're there. I heard this over and over before I got O'Mally, but I never really thought about it to much. Thise irritating poles and chairs on sidewalks and moving people are much easier to navigate--there's honestly nothing better than walking through a mall and your guide zooming you inbetween all sorts of people and stuff you would have usually gotten hung up on with a cane. You are able to train your guide to find stuff as well, which is incredibly nice--no more walking down a wall trailing for that random class in the middle of the hall with no landmarks near by in a huge group of people all socializing right in the middle of the hall. Hope this helps! On 10/31/2013 9:07 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > I agree! > I'd say that canes are more superior, because they're less expensive! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kirt > [kirt.crazydude at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me. And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves. but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >> >> >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40 >> gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 02:10:21 2013 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel and Stockard) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:10:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, <358a0218c8794abc9d2000a96a3c80a5@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <1BCCB931-FAE3-4871-A51D-99C102509E15@gmail.com> Hi Hailey. Personally, for me, having a guide dog is the best decision for mobility. This however can be different depending on the person. I find that a guide has dramatically increased my independence and mobility, getting one for me was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Personally, I recommend the best way to find out if a guide dog is for you, would be for you to speak with guide dog users about their personal experiences, and see if that's something that you would think would be best for you. If you would like to write me off list, feel free. My email is laurel.stockard at gmail.com I would be happy to tell you about my experience with a dog. Good luck on your decision. One more thing, for me, a dog is much better than a cain, however, I don't believe that generally one is better than the other. I strongly believe that it's a personal choice, and what's better for me may not be better for somebody else, and vise versa. :-) Laurel and Stockard On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:02 PM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > They are only more superior in one way obviously, and that's due to the money factor you just point out, which really isn't an issue. My guide does an amazing job of getting me from place to place and all I have to do is give him lots of attention and buy him food and the occasional bath (the bath because I don't want to do it myself). I don't really think that's to much to ask. > > Here's my two cents on it. > > First, having a dog is fairly useful socially, but there are drawbacks. Mainly that you have to be willing to say no if someone wants to pet your dog sometimes. Second, I've had people talk to me and just ask about O'Mally without bothering to even get my name--there was actually a shirt someone had once that said "I'm with the dog." I heard about it in draining and never really got it, but I'd love to find that shirt now, as it's really true. Your guide will undoubtedly attract a lot of attention--some of it wanted, some of it unwanted. There are a few issues to be aware of, however. > > First, there are taxis that will just zoom right past you or won't come if they know you have a dog. Obviously this isn't right and people can scream about it (and there are measures being taken to prevent the issue), but it is still an issue. > Second, there are people who will not like your dog's fur all over their car if the dog sheds to much. You need to work out something with your roommate if you live on campus and all that as well. It's not a huge drawback, just something to keep in mind. > 3) There are obviously a lot of responsibilities that come with having a dog. whether or not you think you can handle them is totally up to you. > > I honestly believe all of these are factors worth considering. For me, the companionship and awesome work of O'Mally far outweighs the cost of food and thus the cane is obviously not superior. I think one of the most amazing bonuses to traveling with a guide is that you are able to navigate around obsticals without even knowing they're there. I heard this over and over before I got O'Mally, but I never really thought about it to much. Thise irritating poles and chairs on sidewalks and moving people are much easier to navigate--there's honestly nothing better than walking through a mall and your guide zooming you inbetween all sorts of people and stuff you would have usually gotten hung up on with a cane. You are able to train your guide to find stuff as well, which is incredibly nice--no more walking down a wall trailing for that random class in the middle of the hall with no landmarks near by in a huge group of people all socializing right in the middle of the hall. > > Hope this helps! > On 10/31/2013 9:07 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> I agree! >> I'd say that canes are more superior, because they're less expensive! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kirt [kirt.crazydude at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>> Thanks, >>> Haley Sumner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail.com From haleysumner at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 1 02:31:38 2013 From: haleysumner at sbcglobal.net (Haley Sumner) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:31:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >> >> >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbcglobal.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 02:33:17 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:33:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> The school will teach you everything you need to no. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley Sumner Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >> >> >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 02:37:02 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 20:37:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) has a list on www.nfbnet.org Best, Arielle On 10/31/13, justin williams wrote: > The school will teach you everything you need to no. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley Sumner > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything > in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. > I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best > for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog > lists that I could join? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" >> wrote: >> >> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know >> if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to >> feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane >> ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have >> for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, >> companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are >> great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their >> owner. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my >> life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works >> very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then >> why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is >> inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal >> preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you >> have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even >> consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of >> themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their >> travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't >> fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training >> with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works >> best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane >> for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are >> a competent traveler before you make that decision. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in >>> about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still >>> unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. >>> What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, >>> social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences >>> and preferences. >>> Thanks, >>> Haley Sumner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sparklylicious at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 02:37:16 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 19:37:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000701ced6ab$488fd320$d9af7960$@gmail.com> Yes, NFB also has a guide dog list for all the handlers and people who are considering getting a dog. You can search for it on the nfbnet.org site. It's called nagdu, and there are also state lists for the guide dog users in that state. Hope this helps. I forgot to mention one last thing if you're considering a dog. You should make sure that your cane skills are really good because unexpected things can happen to your dog and you'd have to use your cane or if you decide to go somewhere and don't want to take your dog, you'd need your cane. Just my two cents. Best, Hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley Sumner Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >> >> >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.com From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 02:39:20 2013 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel and Stockard) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:39:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41183795-9923-41B5-81E3-BA8949570E7A@gmail.com> If it helps, I didn't ever have a dog before I joined the ranks of guide dog users. NAGDU is a great list to join, you'll meet a lot of helpful people there and get a lot of good information. :-) Laurel and Stockard On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Yes, National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) has a list on > www.nfbnet.org > > Best, > Arielle > > On 10/31/13, justin williams wrote: >> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley Sumner >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything >> in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. >> I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best >> for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog >> lists that I could join? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" >>> wrote: >>> >>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know >>> if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to >>> feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane >>> ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have >>> for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, >>> companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are >>> great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their >>> owner. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>> >>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my >>> life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works >>> very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then >>> why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is >>> inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal >>> preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you >>> have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even >>> consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of >>> themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their >>> travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't >>> fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training >>> with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works >>> best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane >>> for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are >>> a competent traveler before you make that decision. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in >>>> about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still >>>> unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. >>>> What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, >>>> social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences >>>> and preferences. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Haley Sumner >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbcglobal.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 1 02:54:12 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:54:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> Justin: If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people with lack of said experience isn't helpful. Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. HTH, On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: > The school will teach you everything you need to no. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley Sumner > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: >> >> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>> Thanks, >>> Haley Sumner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbcglobal.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Nov 1 03:40:41 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 23:40:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <830BD31D-4588-4C2F-825F-1AFFAEFF6667@fuse.net> Hi. I have similar views of Kurt, although it is a personal choice. However, another point that I do not think anyone has brouht up is the use of the dog in social situations. Yes, the dog may attract conversation. However, this should not be the main motivator in getting the dog, and the dog should not blatantly be used for these purposes. I thinnk there needs to be a good amount of social skills, as well as travel skills, but that is just ;my personal opinion. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Kirt wrote: > > Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >> >> >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lissa1531 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 03:57:25 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:57:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? References: <5272f49e.488b440a.2017.7e53@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2D24150D344745328458384F3212293A@HP30910210001> Arielle. I completely agree with what you said about getting a dog. I figure I should share my story. I hope that it helps in some way. I have had my first dog for over two years now. Before that, I was a cane user. People pressured me to get a dog as well. I didn't feel comfortable with my cane. When I started using my cane a lot, I took myself off of a guide dog school's waiting list. I had to be ready and I knew that I wasn't getting the dog for me, it was for those who thought that I needed a dog because I was blind. Also growing up in an urban neighborhood that was predominatly black. For this reason, I didn't get a lot of O&M services like many other people did. The services that I got was because my mom and the teacher of blind students would raise hell. Then it would last for a few months and then be gone again. When I decided to get a dog, the school that I had removed my name from the waiting list because I wasn't ready held that against me and thus denied my application. I still use my cane at times. I love having the opportunities of both a dog and a cane. But arielle is correct. It takes lots of responsibility. When it is raining outside and the dog has to go out. You have to take the dog out. then there are vet bills, and food costs. think of it this way, your cane won't get diarrhea or vomit in the middle of the night. I love my girl, and I love travvling with her. And, after all of those years of using my cane, I am confortable with it as well. I have said that I may not go back for a second dog when she retires. It ultimately your decision. I would also suggest going to nfbnet and joining the national asociation of guide dog users, as well as the state devision of guide dog users. If there is one, and talk to other dog users. Best, Melissa Green and Pj "There's a God that loves you, you matter, & you have value & purpose." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? Hi Haley, When I was in high school several people from outside the blindness world pressured me to get a guide dog before college. I also knew very few competent blind adults who used canes, so I was pushed toward getting a dog because I thought I needed one to be a competent traveler. I eventually decided to delay getting a dog because at age 18 I didn't feel ready for the responsibility. After delaying for a couple years and meeting a bunch of competent cane travelers in college, I made that a permanent decision. I'm not sure if you too are experiencing pressure to get a dog but if you are, I don't think that should factor into your decision. There are many people who are happy as guide dog users and have a great travel experience. But there are others of us who are equally happy using a cane. I think if you want to get a dog, it should be because you really love dogs, because you like that style of travel, or ideally both. For me, I chose not to for two main reasons. First, I am the kind of traveler who needs to know what's around and be in control. If another being is guiding me I tend to space out and lose track of where I am going. I need to be in contact with things in the environment to keep my bearings and be able to make confident travel decisions. However, some people don't have that problem and they appreciate being guided around obstacles. Second, I like my solitude and am not motivated to have a companion all the time, plus the responsibility and stress that goes along with it. But again, it's a personal choice and for some people it is worth the trouble to have that special bond with a dog. I think you can learn a lot by talking with lots of guide dog users and seeing how well the lifestyle and travel method fits with your personal style. But there is also the reality that you can always switch from cane to dog, but it is harder to turn back once you have decided to commit to have a dog. So, I would not recommend getting a dog unless you feel you are ready and really motivated to have that experience. Best, Arielle On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Haley, > I think there are advantages to both. A dog does give the public > (especially in college) an opening to start a conversation. > However, they are a lot of work. I'm currently working my second > dog and we're in a college environment. The advantage to having > a cane is that at the end of the day you can just put it away and > not have to worry about it. However, with a dog you have to > water, feed, play and take them out for bathroom breaks. You may > have to take time out of your schedule to take them to the vet > for emergency visits. With all this said, I'm still glad I have > my dog. She is fantastic in every way possible! This decision is > completely up to you because you will be the one responsible for > your dog. You have to want to do all that time consuming work, > but I think that the end result is worth more. I don't mind all > the work that my dog requires because she is a delight, her work > is great and she is a living, breathing being. Please email me > off list if you have any further questions. > Best, Hannah > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: haley sumner To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:05:12 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and > why? > > > Hello fellow Nabsters, > I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog > in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am > still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick > with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is > better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to > hearing about your experiences and preferences. > Thanks, > Haley Sumner > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > s%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Nov 1 04:04:17 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:04:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] neonatal nurse In-Reply-To: References: <1da3574aa9e8440aa471bdbabee62752@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: You should also check out nond, national association of nurses of disabilities. Their website is at www.nnond.org. I hope this helps. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:36 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Keira, > > Welcome to the list! > I would recommend starting one step at a time, by taking some basic > nursing classes. You should not face much, if any, discouragement at > this early stage, and the basic classes will help you learn more about > the nursing field. If you do decide to continue and get your nursing > degree, and run into naysayers later, you will have more detailed > knowledge to share with them about how you will do the job as a blind > person. > > I'd imagine that being a PCA is completely accessible, and that being > a nurse is mostly accessible. There may be a few things with regard to > measuring medications that are not accessible without some tweaking, > but you could do it in collaboration with a sighted nurse or medical > assistant. > > I know of blind people who have drawn blood and performed very basic > surgical procedures as medical students. There is a book called White > Coat, White Cane, written by a blind guy named David Hartman who > obtained his M.D. and performed such procedures during his training. > Tim Cordes is another blind psychiatrist who went through an M.D. > program. Nursing and doctoring are different things, but it seems that > if these folks were able to do blood draws nonvisually, you should be > able to handle giving injections and other nursing duties. > > Best, > Arielle > >> On 10/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Keira, I must ask this question. >> Do you have any sight at all? >> If so, you may be able to do some things. >> PCA's may require little to no sight. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Keira Davis >> [keke.davis91 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:57 AM >> To: sandragayer7 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing From jim.hulme at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 04:06:30 2013 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:06:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <2D24150D344745328458384F3212293A@HP30910210001> References: <5272f49e.488b440a.2017.7e53@mx.google.com> <2D24150D344745328458384F3212293A@HP30910210001> Message-ID: always use the white cane Twitter: @JimHulmeLookout Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jimmy.hulme1 On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:57 PM, melissa Green wrote: > Arielle. > I completely agree with what you said about getting a dog. > > I figure I should share my story. > > I hope that it helps in some way. > I have had my first dog for over two years now. > Before that, I was a cane user. > People pressured me to get a dog as well. > I didn't feel comfortable with my cane. > When I started using my cane a lot, I took myself off of a guide dog > school's waiting list. > I had to be ready and I knew that I wasn't getting the dog for me, it was > for those who thought that I needed a dog because I was blind. > Also growing up in an urban neighborhood that was predominatly black. For > this reason, I didn't get a lot of O&M services like many other people did. > The services that I got was because my mom and the teacher of blind > students > would raise hell. Then it would last for a few months and then be gone > again. > When I decided to get a dog, the school that I had removed my name from the > waiting list because I wasn't ready held that against me and thus denied my > application. > I still use my cane at times. > I love having the opportunities of both a dog and a cane. > But arielle is correct. > It takes lots of responsibility. > When it is raining outside and the dog has to go out. > You have to take the dog out. > then there are vet bills, and food costs. > think of it this way, your cane won't get diarrhea or vomit in the middle > of > the night. > I love my girl, and I love travvling with her. > And, after all of those years of using my cane, I am confortable with it as > well. > I have said that I may not go back for a second dog when she retires. > It ultimately your decision. > I would also suggest going to nfbnet and joining the national asociation of > guide dog users, as well as the state devision of guide dog users. If > there > is one, and talk to other dog users. > Best, > Melissa Green and Pj > "There's a God that loves you, you matter, & you have value & purpose." > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:13 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > > Hi Haley, > > When I was in high school several people from outside the blindness > world pressured me to get a guide dog before college. I also knew very > few competent blind adults who used canes, so I was pushed toward > getting a dog because I thought I needed one to be a competent > traveler. I eventually decided to delay getting a dog because at age > 18 I didn't feel ready for the responsibility. After delaying for a > couple years and meeting a bunch of competent cane travelers in > college, I made that a permanent decision. I'm not sure if you too are > experiencing pressure to get a dog but if you are, I don't think that > should factor into your decision. There are many people who are happy > as guide dog users and have a great travel experience. But there are > others of us who are equally happy using a cane. I think if you want > to get a dog, it should be because you really love dogs, because you > like that style of travel, or ideally both. > For me, I chose not to for two main reasons. First, I am the kind of > traveler who needs to know what's around and be in control. If another > being is guiding me I tend to space out and lose track of where I am > going. I need to be in contact with things in the environment to keep > my bearings and be able to make confident travel decisions. However, > some people don't have that problem and they appreciate being guided > around obstacles. Second, I like my solitude and am not motivated to > have a companion all the time, plus the responsibility and stress that > goes along with it. But again, it's a personal choice and for some > people it is worth the trouble to have that special bond with a dog. > I think you can learn a lot by talking with lots of guide dog users > and seeing how well the lifestyle and travel method fits with your > personal style. But there is also the reality that you can always > switch from cane to dog, but it is harder to turn back once you have > decided to commit to have a dog. So, I would not recommend getting a > dog unless you feel you are ready and really motivated to have that > experience. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > > Haley, > > I think there are advantages to both. A dog does give the public > > (especially in college) an opening to start a conversation. > > However, they are a lot of work. I'm currently working my second > > dog and we're in a college environment. The advantage to having > > a cane is that at the end of the day you can just put it away and > > not have to worry about it. However, with a dog you have to > > water, feed, play and take them out for bathroom breaks. You may > > have to take time out of your schedule to take them to the vet > > for emergency visits. With all this said, I'm still glad I have > > my dog. She is fantastic in every way possible! This decision is > > completely up to you because you will be the one responsible for > > your dog. You have to want to do all that time consuming work, > > but I think that the end result is worth more. I don't mind all > > the work that my dog requires because she is a delight, her work > > is great and she is a living, breathing being. Please email me > > off list if you have any further questions. > > Best, Hannah > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: haley sumner > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:05:12 -0700 (PDT) > > Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and > > why? > > > > > > Hello fellow Nabsters, > > I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog > > in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am > > still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick > > with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is > > better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to > > hearing about your experiences and preferences. > > Thanks, > > Haley Sumner > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > > s%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Nov 1 04:07:47 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:07:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] neonatal nurse In-Reply-To: References: <1da3574aa9e8440aa471bdbabee62752@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Oops. Its organization, not association. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 12:04 AM, Lillie Pennington wrote: > > You should also check out nond, national association of nurses of disabilities. Their website is at www.nnond.org. I hope this helps. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:36 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi Keira, >> >> Welcome to the list! >> I would recommend starting one step at a time, by taking some basic >> nursing classes. You should not face much, if any, discouragement at >> this early stage, and the basic classes will help you learn more about >> the nursing field. If you do decide to continue and get your nursing >> degree, and run into naysayers later, you will have more detailed >> knowledge to share with them about how you will do the job as a blind >> person. >> >> I'd imagine that being a PCA is completely accessible, and that being >> a nurse is mostly accessible. There may be a few things with regard to >> measuring medications that are not accessible without some tweaking, >> but you could do it in collaboration with a sighted nurse or medical >> assistant. >> >> I know of blind people who have drawn blood and performed very basic >> surgical procedures as medical students. There is a book called White >> Coat, White Cane, written by a blind guy named David Hartman who >> obtained his M.D. and performed such procedures during his training. >> Tim Cordes is another blind psychiatrist who went through an M.D. >> program. Nursing and doctoring are different things, but it seems that >> if these folks were able to do blood draws nonvisually, you should be >> able to handle giving injections and other nursing duties. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >>> On 10/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Keira, I must ask this question. >>> Do you have any sight at all? >>> If so, you may be able to do some things. >>> PCA's may require little to no sight. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Keira Davis >>> [keke.davis91 at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:57 AM >>> To: sandragayer7 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 04:43:17 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 00:43:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own business. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? Justin: If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people with lack of said experience isn't helpful. Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. HTH, On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: > The school will teach you everything you need to no. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley > Sumner > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: >> >> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>> Thanks, >>> Haley Sumner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>> 0gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >> global.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 04:50:32 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 22:50:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <358a0218c8794abc9d2000a96a3c80a5@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <67A04FBA-E3DA-40D8-97EF-EA3C51790B78@gmail.com> Tyler, You make some good points, and I guess it all boils down to personal preference. However, only speaking for myself, I think I'm with Arielle on this one. Obviously, for you, avoiding obstacles without even knowing they are there is an advantage… And more power to you. However, one of the things I love most about my cane is the way is the way it shows me all the obstacles in my way, Which often turn out to be superb landmarks later, and then I can decide how I want to deal with them. In all sorts of familiar and unfamiliar environments, from my tiny studio apartment all the way to the streets of New York City and everywhere else in between that I have navigated ever since becoming a competent traveler a couple years back, this characteristic you describe as one of the cane's main disadvantages is, for me, one of the things I love most. Best, Kirt Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 8:02 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > They are only more superior in one way obviously, and that's due to the money factor you just point out, which really isn't an issue. My guide does an amazing job of getting me from place to place and all I have to do is give him lots of attention and buy him food and the occasional bath (the bath because I don't want to do it myself). I don't really think that's to much to ask. > > Here's my two cents on it. > > First, having a dog is fairly useful socially, but there are drawbacks. Mainly that you have to be willing to say no if someone wants to pet your dog sometimes. Second, I've had people talk to me and just ask about O'Mally without bothering to even get my name--there was actually a shirt someone had once that said "I'm with the dog." I heard about it in draining and never really got it, but I'd love to find that shirt now, as it's really true. Your guide will undoubtedly attract a lot of attention--some of it wanted, some of it unwanted. There are a few issues to be aware of, however. > > First, there are taxis that will just zoom right past you or won't come if they know you have a dog. Obviously this isn't right and people can scream about it (and there are measures being taken to prevent the issue), but it is still an issue. > Second, there are people who will not like your dog's fur all over their car if the dog sheds to much. You need to work out something with your roommate if you live on campus and all that as well. It's not a huge drawback, just something to keep in mind. > 3) There are obviously a lot of responsibilities that come with having a dog. whether or not you think you can handle them is totally up to you. > > I honestly believe all of these are factors worth considering. For me, the companionship and awesome work of O'Mally far outweighs the cost of food and thus the cane is obviously not superior. I think one of the most amazing bonuses to traveling with a guide is that you are able to navigate around obsticals without even knowing they're there. I heard this over and over before I got O'Mally, but I never really thought about it to much. Thise irritating poles and chairs on sidewalks and moving people are much easier to navigate--there's honestly nothing better than walking through a mall and your guide zooming you inbetween all sorts of people and stuff you would have usually gotten hung up on with a cane. You are able to train your guide to find stuff as well, which is incredibly nice--no more walking down a wall trailing for that random class in the middle of the hall with no landmarks near by in a huge group of people all socializing right in the middle of the hall. > > Hope this helps! >> On 10/31/2013 9:07 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> I agree! >> I'd say that canes are more superior, because they're less expensive! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kirt [kirt.crazydude at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:03 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>> Thanks, >>> Haley Sumner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 04:54:40 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:54:40 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] #Nabschat Message-ID: <6D8D9C40-D1DD-4804-9FDC-80FAFAD72465@gmail.com> Hi all, The discussion about guide dogs and Cain's has become such an interesting one that it has now made its way to Twitter If you want to be a part of the Twitter conversation you can simply use the hashtag #nabschat This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 05:01:03 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 23:01:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <5272f49e.488b440a.2017.7e53@mx.google.com> <2D24150D344745328458384F3212293A@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <19F37128-09A3-4D7F-B91F-3AB282275990@gmail.com> James, Coming from an avid cane user, I think this is hardly fair and I strongly object to the idea that, just because a particular method works well for me, it categorically must also always be the best option for everybody else. If a dog genuinely works better for some people than using a cane all the time, Who am I to say that's wrong just because I travel differently? Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:06 PM, James Hulme wrote: > > always use the white cane > > Twitter: @JimHulmeLookout > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jimmy.hulme1 > > >> On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:57 PM, melissa Green wrote: >> >> Arielle. >> I completely agree with what you said about getting a dog. >> >> I figure I should share my story. >> >> I hope that it helps in some way. >> I have had my first dog for over two years now. >> Before that, I was a cane user. >> People pressured me to get a dog as well. >> I didn't feel comfortable with my cane. >> When I started using my cane a lot, I took myself off of a guide dog >> school's waiting list. >> I had to be ready and I knew that I wasn't getting the dog for me, it was >> for those who thought that I needed a dog because I was blind. >> Also growing up in an urban neighborhood that was predominatly black. For >> this reason, I didn't get a lot of O&M services like many other people did. >> The services that I got was because my mom and the teacher of blind >> students >> would raise hell. Then it would last for a few months and then be gone >> again. >> When I decided to get a dog, the school that I had removed my name from the >> waiting list because I wasn't ready held that against me and thus denied my >> application. >> I still use my cane at times. >> I love having the opportunities of both a dog and a cane. >> But arielle is correct. >> It takes lots of responsibility. >> When it is raining outside and the dog has to go out. >> You have to take the dog out. >> then there are vet bills, and food costs. >> think of it this way, your cane won't get diarrhea or vomit in the middle >> of >> the night. >> I love my girl, and I love travvling with her. >> And, after all of those years of using my cane, I am confortable with it as >> well. >> I have said that I may not go back for a second dog when she retires. >> It ultimately your decision. >> I would also suggest going to nfbnet and joining the national asociation of >> guide dog users, as well as the state devision of guide dog users. If >> there >> is one, and talk to other dog users. >> Best, >> Melissa Green and Pj >> "There's a God that loves you, you matter, & you have value & purpose." >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> >> Hi Haley, >> >> When I was in high school several people from outside the blindness >> world pressured me to get a guide dog before college. I also knew very >> few competent blind adults who used canes, so I was pushed toward >> getting a dog because I thought I needed one to be a competent >> traveler. I eventually decided to delay getting a dog because at age >> 18 I didn't feel ready for the responsibility. After delaying for a >> couple years and meeting a bunch of competent cane travelers in >> college, I made that a permanent decision. I'm not sure if you too are >> experiencing pressure to get a dog but if you are, I don't think that >> should factor into your decision. There are many people who are happy >> as guide dog users and have a great travel experience. But there are >> others of us who are equally happy using a cane. I think if you want >> to get a dog, it should be because you really love dogs, because you >> like that style of travel, or ideally both. >> For me, I chose not to for two main reasons. First, I am the kind of >> traveler who needs to know what's around and be in control. If another >> being is guiding me I tend to space out and lose track of where I am >> going. I need to be in contact with things in the environment to keep >> my bearings and be able to make confident travel decisions. However, >> some people don't have that problem and they appreciate being guided >> around obstacles. Second, I like my solitude and am not motivated to >> have a companion all the time, plus the responsibility and stress that >> goes along with it. But again, it's a personal choice and for some >> people it is worth the trouble to have that special bond with a dog. >> I think you can learn a lot by talking with lots of guide dog users >> and seeing how well the lifestyle and travel method fits with your >> personal style. But there is also the reality that you can always >> switch from cane to dog, but it is harder to turn back once you have >> decided to commit to have a dog. So, I would not recommend getting a >> dog unless you feel you are ready and really motivated to have that >> experience. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >>> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Haley, >>> I think there are advantages to both. A dog does give the public >>> (especially in college) an opening to start a conversation. >>> However, they are a lot of work. I'm currently working my second >>> dog and we're in a college environment. The advantage to having >>> a cane is that at the end of the day you can just put it away and >>> not have to worry about it. However, with a dog you have to >>> water, feed, play and take them out for bathroom breaks. You may >>> have to take time out of your schedule to take them to the vet >>> for emergency visits. With all this said, I'm still glad I have >>> my dog. She is fantastic in every way possible! This decision is >>> completely up to you because you will be the one responsible for >>> your dog. You have to want to do all that time consuming work, >>> but I think that the end result is worth more. I don't mind all >>> the work that my dog requires because she is a delight, her work >>> is great and she is a living, breathing being. Please email me >>> off list if you have any further questions. >>> Best, Hannah >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: haley sumner >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:05:12 -0700 (PDT) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and >>> why? >>> >>> >>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog >>> in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am >>> still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick >>> with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is >>> better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to >>> hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>> Thanks, >>> Haley Sumner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >>> s%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 05:01:33 2013 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 01:01:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] questions about SPSS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Patrick, Sorry to make another post, but Arielle actually made a really good point. The problem with SPSS is that its accessibility feature is not turned on by default (i.e., the check box I mentioned in my previous message), so if you are using it on a public computer it will most likely NOT work with JAWS unless you have it removed first and go through the installation process again. A 1-year student license for SPSS costs around $90, I believe, so you will have to decide whether you would like to invest in the purchase especially if you will only need it for one semester. If the free calculator Arielle sent would be sufficient for your purpose that might be the best solution. Good luck! Katie On 10/31/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Patrick, > > SPSS is accessible, but the problem is that a license costs money. If > you have JAWS on a public computer on campus that has SPSS, then you > should be able to use it, but if you need to run software on your own > computer, it probably doesn't make sense to buy an SPSS license unless > you are planning to use it for multiple semesters. > There is a free and easy-to-use stats calculator at > www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ > that will do a lot of basic stuff. If you know the names of the > statistical procedures that your class is doing in SPSS, I can tell > you whether GraphPad will work as a free substitute. > Alternatively, if the SPSS project is a group project, you could ask > someone from your group to email you the output as an Excel file. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 10/31/13, David Andrews wrote: >> If you don't get a good answer here, we have other lists where you >> might be more successful, such as blind Math, social-sciences-list, >> and nfb-science. You can find them all at: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/ >> >> Dave >> >> >> At 09:00 PM 10/30/2013, you wrote: >>>Hi All, >>>I'm in a research methods class and we're going to be starting SPSS >>>soon. Has anyone on this list worked with SPSS before? How >>>user-friendly is it with JAWS? If it's not, is there another program I >>>can use that will do the same things as SPSS? Any JAWS keystrokes that >>>I should know beforehand? >>>Thanks, >>>Patrick >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 05:20:34 2013 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 23:20:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> Justin, At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, Tyler has a very good point. His cane users, we can talk about canes all we want… I, for instance, don't have any qualms at all explaining why I like my cane and why it works so well for me personally that I've pretty much entirely ruled out getting a dog, though I did consider it at one time. However, I don't really think it's right for me to tell people how guide dog school's work, or what it's like using the dog, beyond perhaps relaying things I've heard from competent dog handlers and making it clear that this isn't an area with which I have any experience or expertise. Imagine if you had a coworker Who maybe was friends with a couple blind students in college or high school, and this person started telling your boss what it's like being blind, even with you in the room. Do you think that would bother you, even a little bit? Best, Kirt Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own business. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Justin: > If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people with lack of said experience isn't helpful. > > Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. > > I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. > > HTH, >> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >> Sumner >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: >>> >>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>> >>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Haley Sumner >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >>> global.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 06:22:32 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 02:22:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Haley, People have given you amazing advice regarding whether or not to get a guide, but I just want to add that you should seriously think about when would be an appropriate time for you to do so. Before entering my freshman year of college last year, I was very insistent on getting a guide to ease my transition to college. For various reasons, that didn't work out and I am extremely glad I didn't have a dog to take care of while I was struggling with adjusting to college. Freshman year is really hard for most people and I don't think I could have handled the stress of a dog as well as the myriad other demands of campus life. That being said, I went to GDB over the summer and got my first guide, Viva and she has dramatically made it easier to travel around my campus and the surrounding city. Also, don't worry that youd on't know how to take care of a dog; the guide dog school will give you all the skills you need in order to effectively take care of your guide. I only had cats before I started working with Viva. Cheers, Minh On 11/1/13, Kirt wrote: > Justin, > At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, Tyler has a very good point. His > cane users, we can talk about canes all we want… I, for instance, don't have > any qualms at all explaining why I like my cane and why it works so well for > me personally that I've pretty much entirely ruled out getting a dog, though > I did consider it at one time. However, I don't really think it's right for > me to tell people how guide dog school's work, or what it's like using the > dog, beyond perhaps relaying things I've heard from competent dog handlers > and making it clear that this isn't an area with which I have any experience > or expertise. Imagine if you had a coworker Who maybe was friends with a > couple blind students in college or high school, and this person started > telling your boss what it's like being blind, even with you in the room. Do > you think that would bother you, even a little bit? > Best, > Kirt > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "justin williams" >> wrote: >> >> I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own >> business. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >> Tyler >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> Justin: >> If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the >> case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no >> experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people >> with lack of said experience isn't helpful. >> >> Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A >> lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools >> usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask >> those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be >> someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. >> >> I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide >> dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good >> mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention >> that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. >> >> HTH, >>> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >>> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >>> Sumner >>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>> >>> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn >>> everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all >>> of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to >>> see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are >>> there any guide dog lists that I could join? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t >>>> know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra >>>> funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, >>>> but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The >>>> question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog >>>> as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if >>>> handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition >>>> to the life or their owner. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>> >>>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >>>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of >>>> my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just >>>> works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't >>>> broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of >>>> travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of >>>> personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest >>>> that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before >>>> you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs >>>> in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it >>>> because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog >>>> probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get >>>> quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then >>>> decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a >>>> dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to >>>> you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that >>>> decision. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in >>>>> about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still >>>>> unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the >>>>> cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better >>>>> travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about >>>>> your experiences and preferences. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Haley Sumner >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>>> 40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >>>> global.net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>> 0gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>> com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 06:46:09 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 02:46:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007901ced6ce$0c96f5b0$25c4e110$@gmail.com> If I overstepped my bounds, then I apologize. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 1:21 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? Justin, At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, Tyler has a very good point. His cane users, we can talk about canes all we want… I, for instance, don't have any qualms at all explaining why I like my cane and why it works so well for me personally that I've pretty much entirely ruled out getting a dog, though I did consider it at one time. However, I don't really think it's right for me to tell people how guide dog school's work, or what it's like using the dog, beyond perhaps relaying things I've heard from competent dog handlers and making it clear that this isn't an area with which I have any experience or expertise. Imagine if you had a coworker Who maybe was friends with a couple blind students in college or high school, and this person started telling your boss what it's like being blind, even with you in the room. Do you think that would bother you, even a little bit? Best, Kirt Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own business. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Justin: > If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people with lack of said experience isn't helpful. > > Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. > > I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. > > HTH, >> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >> Sumner >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: >>> >>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>> >>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Haley Sumner >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude% >>>> 4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 >>> % >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sb >>> c >>> global.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >> 4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40g > mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 1 06:57:01 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 06:57:01 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, <358a0218c8794abc9d2000a96a3c80a5@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>, <52730BC6.3030600@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Tyler, you forgot the visits to the vet. The vets here in Arkansas are super-expensive, so for the blind student in Arkansas, if you don't have the luxury of having Pel or other grants to pay for your education, having the dogs can be way too expensive for us. Textbooks are too expensive as it is, so an added expense, (IE,) the dog, is way too much. If I could get the certain one like I've mentioned before, after graduation from college, I would probably look into it, but Guiding Eyes last I checked doesn't train poodles, boxers, etc. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Littlefield, Tyler [tyler at tysdomain.com] Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? They are only more superior in one way obviously, and that's due to the money factor you just point out, which really isn't an issue. My guide does an amazing job of getting me from place to place and all I have to do is give him lots of attention and buy him food and the occasional bath (the bath because I don't want to do it myself). I don't really think that's to much to ask. Here's my two cents on it. First, having a dog is fairly useful socially, but there are drawbacks. Mainly that you have to be willing to say no if someone wants to pet your dog sometimes. Second, I've had people talk to me and just ask about O'Mally without bothering to even get my name--there was actually a shirt someone had once that said "I'm with the dog." I heard about it in draining and never really got it, but I'd love to find that shirt now, as it's really true. Your guide will undoubtedly attract a lot of attention--some of it wanted, some of it unwanted. There are a few issues to be aware of, however. First, there are taxis that will just zoom right past you or won't come if they know you have a dog. Obviously this isn't right and people can scream about it (and there are measures being taken to prevent the issue), but it is still an issue. Second, there are people who will not like your dog's fur all over their car if the dog sheds to much. You need to work out something with your roommate if you live on campus and all that as well. It's not a huge drawback, just something to keep in mind. 3) There are obviously a lot of responsibilities that come with having a dog. whether or not you think you can handle them is totally up to you. I honestly believe all of these are factors worth considering. For me, the companionship and awesome work of O'Mally far outweighs the cost of food and thus the cane is obviously not superior. I think one of the most amazing bonuses to traveling with a guide is that you are able to navigate around obsticals without even knowing they're there. I heard this over and over before I got O'Mally, but I never really thought about it to much. Thise irritating poles and chairs on sidewalks and moving people are much easier to navigate--there's honestly nothing better than walking through a mall and your guide zooming you inbetween all sorts of people and stuff you would have usually gotten hung up on with a cane. You are able to train your guide to find stuff as well, which is incredibly nice--no more walking down a wall trailing for that random class in the middle of the hall with no landmarks near by in a huge group of people all socializing right in the middle of the hall. Hope this helps! On 10/31/2013 9:07 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > I agree! > I'd say that canes are more superior, because they're less expensive! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kirt [kirt.crazydude at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >> >> >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 1 06:58:50 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 06:58:50 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <52730971.4090403@tysdomain.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> , <52730971.4090403@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <2fc8192bc2914fff973066216210b80f@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Wow! Tyler! Say it ain't so! We actually agree on something for once! LOL! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Littlefield, Tyler [tyler at tysdomain.com] Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? How does one who is a good cane traveler fall into a drainage hole? Your cane would undoubtedly catch that, would it not? I've bumped into stuff when I used a cane (and I still do every so often with a guide), so it's not exactly a full-proof solution to not falling in stuff you shouldn't have fallen in if you were a good cane traveler to begin with. On 10/31/2013 9:42 PM, Jeff Crouch wrote: > Hi Haley, > I've ben a guide dog user for just over 2 months, and i'm 16 and this > is my first guide dog ever. and I love having a guide dog. For me, > having a guide dog has made my traveling a lot more easier. With out > having to worry about weather i'm going to fall in to some dranage > hole in the side walk which has happened to some one I personaly new, > but with a guide dog I just love having that fluid walking, I can say > when I was a cane user, I was the best cane user my O&M teacher had, > and that is what he told me one day. I love my dog, and like someone > else minchened, don't let people pressure you in to getting one, and > if you deside to get one, don't let people pressure you in to going > some where over some other place. Personal story, I had a person who > was trying to pressure me in to going to guide dog foundation in New > York, but I looked in to a guide dog school in ohio called Pilot dogs, > and I loved it there. Now i'm not going to tell you what I love about > it there, because I don't want to influence you to go there or not to > go there, you need to deside that if you even want to get one. Like > the famious phrase says, "Don't judge a book by its cover." > translated to this topic, don't judge a guide dog school by just what > is said around in the blind community, call and talk to the staff, and > ask the questions that you want to ask, and get to know the staff at > the different schools. > > Feel free to email me off list for anything else. > I hope I've helped. > > > > On 10/31/13, haley sumner wrote: >> Hello fellow Nabsters, >> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a >> year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i >> should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all >> recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am >> looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >> Thanks, >> Haley Sumner >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Fri Nov 1 09:46:48 2013 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Leye-Shprintse_=C3=96berg?=) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 10:46:48 +0100 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <900DA1E2-0006-4CDB-8F10-DE53F0988F0A@ymail.com> BS"D Haley, I think it depends on your own lifestyle. Some people are dog persons and some aren't. For me, I've always been a good cane user but I've always known that I'd become a guide dog handler one day. I feel so blessed to have my girl in my life, she makes my traveling easier but she also light up my life! Actually, I don't think you can compare a cane with a guide dog, the first is a dead thing and the other is a living creature! I wouln't count the social part into my decision either since it isn't the main goal with getting a guide dog. If you get a guide dog you need to be willing to plan your own life around the dog's routines and needs, feeding, relieving, resting, playing, cuddling etc, etc. Somedays, you'll maybe be forced to stay home since the dog is sick or isn't in the mood of working, dogs can have bad days too! Other costs which I've not seen are dog candy, toys, leashe, collars, beds and bowls, if they get old/distroyed, shoes, raincoats, winter coats, towels, ear cleaning etc, etc. To become a guide dog handler is like becoing a parent! I wish you good luck with your decisions! Lesholom, Leye-Shprintse <3 From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 1 12:53:21 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 08:53:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <5272f49e.488b440a.2017.7e53@mx.google.com> <2D24150D344745328458384F3212293A@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <5273A441.9070305@tysdomain.com> thank you james, for your one liner wisdom. It's clear that you put much thought and effort into answering the question at hand. On 11/1/2013 12:06 AM, James Hulme wrote: > always use the white cane > > Twitter: @JimHulmeLookout > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jimmy.hulme1 > > > On Thu, Oct 31, 2013 at 11:57 PM, melissa Green wrote: > >> Arielle. >> I completely agree with what you said about getting a dog. >> >> I figure I should share my story. >> >> I hope that it helps in some way. >> I have had my first dog for over two years now. >> Before that, I was a cane user. >> People pressured me to get a dog as well. >> I didn't feel comfortable with my cane. >> When I started using my cane a lot, I took myself off of a guide dog >> school's waiting list. >> I had to be ready and I knew that I wasn't getting the dog for me, it was >> for those who thought that I needed a dog because I was blind. >> Also growing up in an urban neighborhood that was predominatly black. For >> this reason, I didn't get a lot of O&M services like many other people did. >> The services that I got was because my mom and the teacher of blind >> students >> would raise hell. Then it would last for a few months and then be gone >> again. >> When I decided to get a dog, the school that I had removed my name from the >> waiting list because I wasn't ready held that against me and thus denied my >> application. >> I still use my cane at times. >> I love having the opportunities of both a dog and a cane. >> But arielle is correct. >> It takes lots of responsibility. >> When it is raining outside and the dog has to go out. >> You have to take the dog out. >> then there are vet bills, and food costs. >> think of it this way, your cane won't get diarrhea or vomit in the middle >> of >> the night. >> I love my girl, and I love travvling with her. >> And, after all of those years of using my cane, I am confortable with it as >> well. >> I have said that I may not go back for a second dog when she retires. >> It ultimately your decision. >> I would also suggest going to nfbnet and joining the national asociation of >> guide dog users, as well as the state devision of guide dog users. If >> there >> is one, and talk to other dog users. >> Best, >> Melissa Green and Pj >> "There's a God that loves you, you matter, & you have value & purpose." >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Arielle Silverman" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:13 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> >> Hi Haley, >> >> When I was in high school several people from outside the blindness >> world pressured me to get a guide dog before college. I also knew very >> few competent blind adults who used canes, so I was pushed toward >> getting a dog because I thought I needed one to be a competent >> traveler. I eventually decided to delay getting a dog because at age >> 18 I didn't feel ready for the responsibility. After delaying for a >> couple years and meeting a bunch of competent cane travelers in >> college, I made that a permanent decision. I'm not sure if you too are >> experiencing pressure to get a dog but if you are, I don't think that >> should factor into your decision. There are many people who are happy >> as guide dog users and have a great travel experience. But there are >> others of us who are equally happy using a cane. I think if you want >> to get a dog, it should be because you really love dogs, because you >> like that style of travel, or ideally both. >> For me, I chose not to for two main reasons. First, I am the kind of >> traveler who needs to know what's around and be in control. If another >> being is guiding me I tend to space out and lose track of where I am >> going. I need to be in contact with things in the environment to keep >> my bearings and be able to make confident travel decisions. However, >> some people don't have that problem and they appreciate being guided >> around obstacles. Second, I like my solitude and am not motivated to >> have a companion all the time, plus the responsibility and stress that >> goes along with it. But again, it's a personal choice and for some >> people it is worth the trouble to have that special bond with a dog. >> I think you can learn a lot by talking with lots of guide dog users >> and seeing how well the lifestyle and travel method fits with your >> personal style. But there is also the reality that you can always >> switch from cane to dog, but it is harder to turn back once you have >> decided to commit to have a dog. So, I would not recommend getting a >> dog unless you feel you are ready and really motivated to have that >> experience. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 10/31/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Haley, >>> I think there are advantages to both. A dog does give the public >>> (especially in college) an opening to start a conversation. >>> However, they are a lot of work. I'm currently working my second >>> dog and we're in a college environment. The advantage to having >>> a cane is that at the end of the day you can just put it away and >>> not have to worry about it. However, with a dog you have to >>> water, feed, play and take them out for bathroom breaks. You may >>> have to take time out of your schedule to take them to the vet >>> for emergency visits. With all this said, I'm still glad I have >>> my dog. She is fantastic in every way possible! This decision is >>> completely up to you because you will be the one responsible for >>> your dog. You have to want to do all that time consuming work, >>> but I think that the end result is worth more. I don't mind all >>> the work that my dog requires because she is a delight, her work >>> is great and she is a living, breathing being. Please email me >>> off list if you have any further questions. >>> Best, Hannah >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: haley sumner >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Date sent: Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:05:12 -0700 (PDT) >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and >>> why? >>> >>> >>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog >>> in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am >>> still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick >>> with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is >>> better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to >>> hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>> Thanks, >>> Haley Sumner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >>> s%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 1 13:07:35 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 09:07:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5273A797.5090808@tysdomain.com> I'm really glad Minh pointed this out because I had totally forgotten it. I also got O'mally after I was already in college--my campus wasn't huge, but it was larger. If you are really spacial, it helps to know where stuff is before the dog because you will still need to be oriented. I just transferred to a new college with O'mally and it was a bit harder for me to figure stuff out sometimes--even if the campus is smaller. I found that taking my cane out and walking around a bit was really useful in getting an idea of where I am. Also Kert, for me that's one of the bonuses to a guide. If I'm learning a new area and need to find landmarks, you can "heel" your guide (just have them walk next to you and not work), and just use a cane you can carry around to find a specific landmark--perhaps a bench next to the bus stop or something. Then you can pattern your guide to find that specific bench. It's the best of both worlds--you evade all the stuff in your way while being able to tell them which specific things to find. Someone else already mentioned leashes and bowls--you will need to buy bowls and toys and food, the school gives you a leash. I've had O'Mally for about two years now and I don't really need another leash--I know of a lady that had about 5 guides and just kept using the same leash. A lot of schools also help with vet costs (if the finances are an issue with you, this might be something you think about when choosing a school), as well as flea and heartworm medications. There are other little things you need to do for your guide, but like I said if you have a bit of extra money it's well worth it. O'Mally might cost $45 a month usually with the random toy or something every once in a while as a bit extra. That's less than my phone bill--and a cost I don't really mind at all. On 11/1/2013 2:22 AM, minh ha wrote: > Haley, > > People have given you amazing advice regarding whether or not to get a > guide, but I just want to add that you should seriously think about > when would be an appropriate time for you to do so. Before entering my > freshman year of college last year, I was very insistent on getting a > guide to ease my transition to college. For various reasons, that > didn't work out and I am extremely glad I didn't have a dog to take > care of while I was struggling with adjusting to college. Freshman > year is really hard for most people and I don't think I could have > handled the stress of a dog as well as the myriad other demands of > campus life. That being said, I went to GDB over the summer and got my > first guide, Viva and she has dramatically made it easier to travel > around my campus and the surrounding city. Also, don't worry that youd > on't know how to take care of a dog; the guide dog school will give > you all the skills you need in order to effectively take care of your > guide. I only had cats before I started working with Viva. > > Cheers, > Minh > > On 11/1/13, Kirt wrote: >> Justin, >> At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, Tyler has a very good point. His >> cane users, we can talk about canes all we want… I, for instance, don't have >> any qualms at all explaining why I like my cane and why it works so well for >> me personally that I've pretty much entirely ruled out getting a dog, though >> I did consider it at one time. However, I don't really think it's right for >> me to tell people how guide dog school's work, or what it's like using the >> dog, beyond perhaps relaying things I've heard from competent dog handlers >> and making it clear that this isn't an area with which I have any experience >> or expertise. Imagine if you had a coworker Who maybe was friends with a >> couple blind students in college or high school, and this person started >> telling your boss what it's like being blind, even with you in the room. Do >> you think that would bother you, even a little bit? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "justin williams" >>> wrote: >>> >>> I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own >>> business. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>> Tyler >>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>> >>> Justin: >>> If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the >>> case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no >>> experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people >>> with lack of said experience isn't helpful. >>> >>> Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A >>> lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools >>> usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask >>> those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be >>> someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. >>> >>> I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide >>> dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good >>> mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention >>> that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. >>> >>> HTH, >>>> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >>>> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >>>> Sumner >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>> >>>> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn >>>> everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all >>>> of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to >>>> see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are >>>> there any guide dog lists that I could join? >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t >>>>> know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra >>>>> funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, >>>>> but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The >>>>> question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog >>>>> as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if >>>>> handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition >>>>> to the life or their owner. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>>> >>>>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >>>>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of >>>>> my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just >>>>> works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't >>>>> broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of >>>>> travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of >>>>> personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest >>>>> that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before >>>>> you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs >>>>> in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it >>>>> because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog >>>>> probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get >>>>> quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then >>>>> decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a >>>>> dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to >>>>> you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that >>>>> decision. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in >>>>>> about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still >>>>>> unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the >>>>>> cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better >>>>>> travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about >>>>>> your experiences and preferences. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Haley Sumner >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >>>>> global.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>> com >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From louvins at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 13:41:31 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 08:41:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <5273A797.5090808@tysdomain.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> <5273A797.5090808@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hi to all. Reading this discussion about dog verses cane is very interesting. Haley like others have already said. It is completely up to you. I am a cane user, and have been one all my life. I know I don't have the needed travel skills needed to make it worth my while to get a guide dog. Right now besides not being a good traveler, I don't want to take care of a dog right now. I have nothing against dogs or amimals at all. Dogs can be great. We just got a little puggle as a pet. However, I know guide dogs aren't pets but workers as well. I haven't ruled out the possibility of getting a dog in future now, I know it isn't right for me. You need to do whatever you feel is best for you. If you get a dog, great and I hope it works out fine, but if you stay a cane user, great as well. I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide. On 11/1/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > I'm really glad Minh pointed this out because I had totally forgotten > it. I also got O'mally after I was already in college--my campus wasn't > huge, but it was larger. If you are really spacial, it helps to know > where stuff is before the dog because you will still need to be > oriented. I just transferred to a new college with O'mally and it was a > bit harder for me to figure stuff out sometimes--even if the campus is > smaller. I found that taking my cane out and walking around a bit was > really useful in getting an idea of where I am. > > Also Kert, for me that's one of the bonuses to a guide. If I'm learning > a new area and need to find landmarks, you can "heel" your guide (just > have them walk next to you and not work), and just use a cane you can > carry around to find a specific landmark--perhaps a bench next to the > bus stop or something. Then you can pattern your guide to find that > specific bench. It's the best of both worlds--you evade all the stuff in > your way while being able to tell them which specific things to find. > > Someone else already mentioned leashes and bowls--you will need to buy > bowls and toys and food, the school gives you a leash. I've had O'Mally > for about two years now and I don't really need another leash--I know of > a lady that had about 5 guides and just kept using the same leash. A lot > of schools also help with vet costs (if the finances are an issue with > you, this might be something you think about when choosing a school), as > well as flea and heartworm medications. There are other little things > you need to do for your guide, but like I said if you have a bit of > extra money it's well worth it. O'Mally might cost $45 a month usually > with the random toy or something every once in a while as a bit extra. > That's less than my phone bill--and a cost I don't really mind at all. > On 11/1/2013 2:22 AM, minh ha wrote: >> Haley, >> >> People have given you amazing advice regarding whether or not to get a >> guide, but I just want to add that you should seriously think about >> when would be an appropriate time for you to do so. Before entering my >> freshman year of college last year, I was very insistent on getting a >> guide to ease my transition to college. For various reasons, that >> didn't work out and I am extremely glad I didn't have a dog to take >> care of while I was struggling with adjusting to college. Freshman >> year is really hard for most people and I don't think I could have >> handled the stress of a dog as well as the myriad other demands of >> campus life. That being said, I went to GDB over the summer and got my >> first guide, Viva and she has dramatically made it easier to travel >> around my campus and the surrounding city. Also, don't worry that youd >> on't know how to take care of a dog; the guide dog school will give >> you all the skills you need in order to effectively take care of your >> guide. I only had cats before I started working with Viva. >> >> Cheers, >> Minh >> >> On 11/1/13, Kirt wrote: >>> Justin, >>> At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, Tyler has a very good point. His >>> cane users, we can talk about canes all we want… I, for instance, don't >>> have >>> any qualms at all explaining why I like my cane and why it works so well >>> for >>> me personally that I've pretty much entirely ruled out getting a dog, >>> though >>> I did consider it at one time. However, I don't really think it's right >>> for >>> me to tell people how guide dog school's work, or what it's like using >>> the >>> dog, beyond perhaps relaying things I've heard from competent dog >>> handlers >>> and making it clear that this isn't an area with which I have any >>> experience >>> or expertise. Imagine if you had a coworker Who maybe was friends with a >>> couple blind students in college or high school, and this person started >>> telling your boss what it's like being blind, even with you in the room. >>> Do >>> you think that would bother you, even a little bit? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "justin williams" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own >>>> business. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>> Littlefield, >>>> Tyler >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>> >>>> Justin: >>>> If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the >>>> case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no >>>> experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from >>>> people >>>> with lack of said experience isn't helpful. >>>> >>>> Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. >>>> A >>>> lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The >>>> schools >>>> usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask >>>> those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be >>>> someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. >>>> >>>> I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide >>>> dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good >>>> mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention >>>> that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. >>>> >>>> HTH, >>>>> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >>>>> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >>>>> Sumner >>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>>> >>>>> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn >>>>> everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of >>>>> all >>>>> of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives >>>>> to >>>>> see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are >>>>> there any guide dog lists that I could join? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t >>>>>> know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the >>>>>> extra >>>>>> funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, >>>>>> but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The >>>>>> question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a >>>>>> dog >>>>>> as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if >>>>>> handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful >>>>>> addition >>>>>> to the life or their owner. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and >>>>>> why? >>>>>> >>>>>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a >>>>>> guy >>>>>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest >>>>>> of >>>>>> my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just >>>>>> works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't >>>>>> broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method >>>>>> of >>>>>> travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of >>>>>> personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly >>>>>> suggest >>>>>> that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane >>>>>> before >>>>>> you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to >>>>>> dogs >>>>>> in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do >>>>>> it >>>>>> because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I >>>>>> dog >>>>>> probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to >>>>>> get >>>>>> quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then >>>>>> decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a >>>>>> dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to >>>>>> you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that >>>>>> decision. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>>>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in >>>>>>> about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still >>>>>>> unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the >>>>>>> cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better >>>>>>> travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about >>>>>>> your experiences and preferences. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Haley Sumner >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >>>>>> global.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>> com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From piano.girl0299 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 13:54:07 2013 From: piano.girl0299 at gmail.com (Kelsey Nicolay) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 09:54:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Message-ID: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com> Hello, I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first grade. "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. Thanks, Kelsey Nicolay From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 14:20:22 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 07:20:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher In-Reply-To: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com> References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> Helloo Kelsey, Thank you for posting this question. I doubt that I’ll be the last person to say so, but I know for a fact that a blind person can teach sighted students. I have friends who are either currently teaching or studying to teach. I imagine that there are people on this list that can speak directly to this. If you like, I can be sure to connect you with some of the folks I know that can answer some of your questions, just contact me off-list. Otherwise, I am sure that some early helpful suggestions and experiences will be forthcoming. Thanks again. Darian On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:54 AM, Kelsey Nicolay wrote: > Hello, > I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first grade. > "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. > Thanks, > Kelsey Nicolay > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Nov 1 15:00:47 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 08:00:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good morning, Kirt, and other threadmates, I second Kirt, here. For once, he and i are in total agreement. Personally, large ly as a result of presure from ol' Sighty, at the age of 16 even went so far as to be "Juno-ized," the process in which a trainer from the guide dog school comes out to you and assesses the prospective handler's travel skills. At the time and perhaps now, my travel skills were fairly mediocre. Lately, I have figured out that a guide dog is not the way I wanna interact with the world, so thank you, Juno-izer! After deviating from the point I will second Kurt in saying I don't feel in a position of suggesting or recomending anything to anyone, particularly when I haven't experience with the question at hand. for today, Car 408-209-3239 of adding fuel to the fire, Tyler has a very good point. His cane users, we can talk about canes all we want I, for instance, don't have any qualms at all explaining why I like my cane and why it works so well for me personally that I've pretty much entirely ruled out getting a dog, though I did consider it at one time. However, I don't really think it's right for me to tell people how guide dog school's work, or what it's like using the dog, beyond perhaps relaying things I've heard from competent dog handlers and making it clear that this isn't an area with which I have any experience or expertise. Imagine if you had a coworker Who maybe was friends with a couple blind students in college or high school, and this person started telling your boss what it's like being blind, even with you in the room. Do you think that would bother you, even a little bit? Best, Kirt Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own business. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Justin: > If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people with lack of said experience isn't helpful. > > Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. > > I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. > > HTH, >> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >> Sumner >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: >>> >>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>> >>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me And, you knoww that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves but the majority of people I know get dogss do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Haley Sumner >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >>> global.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From nabs.president at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 15:01:57 2013 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 11:01:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Employment Mentoring Opportunity for College Students who are Blind In-Reply-To: <52712BAA0200007700036E14@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu> References: <52712BAA0200007700036E14@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu> Message-ID: <000c01ced713$4fa44840$eeecd8c0$@gmail.com> Check out this one on one mentoring opportunity if you are a student under 35 years of age (grad students included). Also, if you are a young professional and would like to serve as a mentor for a blind student, they are looking for you, too! From: Jamie O'Mally [mailto:jomally at colled.msstate.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:54 PM To: nabs.president at gmail.com Subject: Employment Mentoring Opportunity for College Students who are Blind Hello Silverman Arielle, Do you know a college student graduating next year who is legally (or totally) blind? The National Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision (NRTC) is pairing students nationwide with mentors who are also legally blind and working in a similar field of interest. Opportunities include face-to-face mentoring, job shadowing, and networking. We offer career preparation resources and student incentives to participate. Students must be under age 35 and should sign up by December 2013. Professionals who are blind and interested in serving as mentors are also encouraged to apply. For more info, visit http://tiny.cc/mentoring-project. For questions, contact Jamie O'Mally at nrtc2 at colled.msstate.edu, or call 662-325-2001 or toll free at1-800-675-7782. Please share this information with anyone you think may be interested! Thank you, Jamie O'Mally, Ph.D. Assistant Research Professor The National Research and Training Center on Blindness & Low Vision (NRTC) Mississippi State University P.O. Box 6189 Mississippi State, MS 39762 662-325-3151 From nabs.president at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 15:03:32 2013 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 11:03:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Apply Now for NASA Summer 2014 Internships: Recruitment Letter for Student Interns with Disabilities and Frequently Asked Questions Attached (Please Distribute Far and Wide!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901ced713$887c21b0$99746510$@gmail.com> Please see the attached for info about summer internship opportunities with NASA. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nasa_summer_2014_recruitment_letter_for_student_interns_with_disabilities.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 110208 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Frequently Asked Questions About OSSI.doc Type: application/msword Size: 60416 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Frequently Asked Questions About OSSI.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 92243 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nasa_summer_2014_recruitment_letter_for_student_interns_with_disabilities.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 88865 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lucysirianni at earthlink.net Fri Nov 1 15:31:42 2013 From: lucysirianni at earthlink.net (Lucy Sirianni) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 08:31:42 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Message-ID: Hi Kelsey, Yes, a blind person can absolutely become a teacher! I teach literature at the college level and know many other blind folks who teach various subjects and age groups. I wonder if you're aware of the following resources. First, are you familiar with the book Teachers who are Blind or Visually Impaired by Deborah Kendrick? It profiles 18 teachers and discusses their strategies for classroom management, etc. I believe it's available on Bookshare. Also, if you haven't already, check out www.blindteachers.net for more profiles of successful blind teachers at all levels. Also, you might want to register with www.afb.org/careerconnect/. This website allows you to search for and connect with blind individuals in many areas of employment. I received some wonderful tips from the English professors I talked with through the site when I was starting out in the field, and I'm sure you'd find people who could answer your questions as well. Finally, the National Organization of Blind Educators has a listserv. To subscribe, visit this link: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nobe-l_nfbnet.org. I hope this is of help to you, and very best of luck as you decide whether to pursue a career in teaching! Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: Kelsey Nicolay References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> <5273A797.5090808@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <1B8C3065-9B34-4BF7-9FB1-02FE8526278D@gmail.com> Tyler, Fair enough. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'm just constantly relying on all that stuff that is "in the way", so for me that's something I wouldn't want to give up, even partially. Especially since I like to travel a lot and that often puts me in areas where I have never been before it all. But, and I say this with full sincerity, i'm glad you found a method that works better for you and I have no business trying to tell anybody else that the way I travel is superior to the way you travel but I know plenty of dog users Who won't give me that same courtesy and say things like our friend James did about long white canes, only referring to dogs instead. I appreciate that you aren't doing that. Thank you. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 7:07 AM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > I'm really glad Minh pointed this out because I had totally forgotten it. I also got O'mally after I was already in college--my campus wasn't huge, but it was larger. If you are really spacial, it helps to know where stuff is before the dog because you will still need to be oriented. I just transferred to a new college with O'mally and it was a bit harder for me to figure stuff out sometimes--even if the campus is smaller. I found that taking my cane out and walking around a bit was really useful in getting an idea of where I am. > > Also Kert, for me that's one of the bonuses to a guide. If I'm learning a new area and need to find landmarks, you can "heel" your guide (just have them walk next to you and not work), and just use a cane you can carry around to find a specific landmark--perhaps a bench next to the bus stop or something. Then you can pattern your guide to find that specific bench. It's the best of both worlds--you evade all the stuff in your way while being able to tell them which specific things to find. > > Someone else already mentioned leashes and bowls--you will need to buy bowls and toys and food, the school gives you a leash. I've had O'Mally for about two years now and I don't really need another leash--I know of a lady that had about 5 guides and just kept using the same leash. A lot of schools also help with vet costs (if the finances are an issue with you, this might be something you think about when choosing a school), as well as flea and heartworm medications. There are other little things you need to do for your guide, but like I said if you have a bit of extra money it's well worth it. O'Mally might cost $45 a month usually with the random toy or something every once in a while as a bit extra. That's less than my phone bill--and a cost I don't really mind at all. >> On 11/1/2013 2:22 AM, minh ha wrote: >> Haley, >> >> People have given you amazing advice regarding whether or not to get a >> guide, but I just want to add that you should seriously think about >> when would be an appropriate time for you to do so. Before entering my >> freshman year of college last year, I was very insistent on getting a >> guide to ease my transition to college. For various reasons, that >> didn't work out and I am extremely glad I didn't have a dog to take >> care of while I was struggling with adjusting to college. Freshman >> year is really hard for most people and I don't think I could have >> handled the stress of a dog as well as the myriad other demands of >> campus life. That being said, I went to GDB over the summer and got my >> first guide, Viva and she has dramatically made it easier to travel >> around my campus and the surrounding city. Also, don't worry that youd >> on't know how to take care of a dog; the guide dog school will give >> you all the skills you need in order to effectively take care of your >> guide. I only had cats before I started working with Viva. >> >> Cheers, >> Minh >> >>> On 11/1/13, Kirt wrote: >>> Justin, >>> At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, Tyler has a very good point. His >>> cane users, we can talk about canes all we want… I, for instance, don't have >>> any qualms at all explaining why I like my cane and why it works so well for >>> me personally that I've pretty much entirely ruled out getting a dog, though >>> I did consider it at one time. However, I don't really think it's right for >>> me to tell people how guide dog school's work, or what it's like using the >>> dog, beyond perhaps relaying things I've heard from competent dog handlers >>> and making it clear that this isn't an area with which I have any experience >>> or expertise. Imagine if you had a coworker Who maybe was friends with a >>> couple blind students in college or high school, and this person started >>> telling your boss what it's like being blind, even with you in the room. Do >>> you think that would bother you, even a little bit? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "justin williams" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own >>>> business. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>> Tyler >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>> >>>> Justin: >>>> If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the >>>> case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no >>>> experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people >>>> with lack of said experience isn't helpful. >>>> >>>> Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A >>>> lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools >>>> usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask >>>> those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be >>>> someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. >>>> >>>> I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide >>>> dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good >>>> mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention >>>> that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. >>>> >>>> HTH, >>>>> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >>>>> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >>>>> Sumner >>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>>> >>>>> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn >>>>> everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all >>>>> of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to >>>>> see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are >>>>> there any guide dog lists that I could join? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t >>>>>> know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra >>>>>> funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, >>>>>> but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The >>>>>> question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog >>>>>> as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if >>>>>> handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition >>>>>> to the life or their owner. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>>>> >>>>>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >>>>>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of >>>>>> my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just >>>>>> works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't >>>>>> broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of >>>>>> travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of >>>>>> personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest >>>>>> that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before >>>>>> you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs >>>>>> in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it >>>>>> because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog >>>>>> probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get >>>>>> quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then >>>>>> decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a >>>>>> dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to >>>>>> you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that >>>>>> decision. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>>>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in >>>>>>> about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still >>>>>>> unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the >>>>>>> cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better >>>>>>> travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about >>>>>>> your experiences and preferences. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Haley Sumner >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >>>>>> global.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>> com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com From i.c.bray at win.net Fri Nov 1 15:52:30 2013 From: i.c.bray at win.net (I. C. Bray) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 11:52:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: For What it's worth, I am recently blind. In fact, it's only been 14 and a half months. I am looking forward to going back to school to finish my Bachelors, and start Grad School to become a Middle School Teacher. I say DO IT! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelsey Nicolay" To: Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:54 AM Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Hello, I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first grade. "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. Thanks, Kelsey Nicolay _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 15:55:22 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 11:55:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <830BD31D-4588-4C2F-825F-1AFFAEFF6667@fuse.net> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <830BD31D-4588-4C2F-825F-1AFFAEFF6667@fuse.net> Message-ID: I agree that social interaction should not be the only motivating factor in a person getting a dog, but what does social skills have to do with anything? If I was a reclusive person that doesn't like to interact with other people, as long as I have the necessary travel skills, then it really doesn't matter whether or not I have the ability to socialize. Minh On 10/31/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Hi. I have similar views of Kurt, although it is a personal choice. However, > another point that I do not think anyone has brouht up is the use of the dog > in social situations. Yes, the dog may attract conversation. However, this > should not be the main motivator in getting the dog, and the dog should not > blatantly be used for these purposes. I thinnk there needs to be a good > amount of social skills, as well as travel skills, but that is just ;my > personal opinion. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Kirt wrote: >> >> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my >> life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works >> very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then >> why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is >> inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal >> preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you >> have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even >> consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of >> themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their >> travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't >> fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training >> with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works >> best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane >> for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are >> a competent traveler before you make that decision. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in >>> about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still >>> unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. >>> What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, >>> social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences >>> and preferences. >>> Thanks, >>> Haley Sumner >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From valandkayla at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 16:02:08 2013 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 10:02:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher In-Reply-To: References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7B4B5B20-8E91-4195-A3C5-9C01299F1B9C@gmail.com> Greetings, Along with animal training, I’m actually working on pursuing an elementary ed degree now. I guess I love training all creatures. :) If you’d like, i’ll keep you updated on my progress so you can know what to expect. I don’t think i’ll have too much difficulty with it. In a sense, your blindness could be a benefit to you as you could argue that children will be learning from someone who isn’t like your typical sighted american. Schools love diversity. I’m not sure of all the techniques I will need for the job, but I also know there’s not a lack of blind teachers out there. The first teacher I can ever remember was blind. So, go for it, and good luck! :) On Nov 1, 2013, at 9:52 AM, I. C. Bray wrote: > For What it's worth, I am recently blind. In fact, it's only been 14 and a > half months. > I am looking forward to going back to school to finish my Bachelors, and > start Grad School to become a Middle School Teacher. > > I say DO IT! > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kelsey Nicolay" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:54 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher > > > Hello, > I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and > French, but I am finding that the French is not being useful to > me at all since "ow are no jobs in the French field. > Communications is a little better. However, ever since I started > tutoring my two students, especially my student who is in > kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school at some > point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that > there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I > went to a work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to > be a preschool teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued > that or not, but she was talking about it. We both had the same > eye condition but she had a little more vision than I do but she > is still considered legally blind and uses Braille and JAWS. So > my question is, what do you think about this? Can someone who is > totally blind be a teacher? I already decided that I would not > want middle or high school, but early childhood would be ok, > especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are > you majoring in education right now that you could give me some > suggestions on how I could make this happen? I know I would > probably need an aide in the classroom, right? Also, how would I > manage my class effectively without vision? I think I would want > to teach kindergarten or first grade. > "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. > Thanks, > Kelsey Nicolay > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 1 17:59:32 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 17:59:32 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher In-Reply-To: <8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com>, <8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Kelsey! You could teach Frinch in the public school system. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Darian Smith [dsmithnfb at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Helloo Kelsey, Thank you for posting this question. I doubt that I’ll be the last person to say so, but I know for a fact that a blind person can teach sighted students. I have friends who are either currently teaching or studying to teach. I imagine that there are people on this list that can speak directly to this. If you like, I can be sure to connect you with some of the folks I know that can answer some of your questions, just contact me off-list. Otherwise, I am sure that some early helpful suggestions and experiences will be forthcoming. Thanks again. Darian On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:54 AM, Kelsey Nicolay wrote: > Hello, > I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first grade. > "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. > Thanks, > Kelsey Nicolay > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 18:36:00 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 14:36:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher In-Reply-To: References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com> <8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid> Kelsey, If you are interested in teaching French in the public schools, I can put you in touch with a blind person who has done this successfully for over 30 years. Please write me off-list if you are interested in talking with him. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Hi Kelsey! > You could teach Frinch in the public school system. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Darian Smith [dsmithnfb at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:20 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher > > Helloo Kelsey, > > Thank you for posting this question. > I doubt that I’ll be the last person to say so, but I know for a fact that a blind person can teach sighted students. I have friends who are either currently teaching or studying to teach. > I imagine that there are people on this list that can speak directly to this. > If you like, I can be sure to connect you with some of the folks I know that can answer some of your questions, just contact me off-list. Otherwise, I am sure that some early helpful suggestions and experiences will be forthcoming. > > Thanks again. > > Darian > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:54 AM, Kelsey Nicolay wrote: >> >> Hello, >> I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first grade. >> "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. >> Thanks, >> Kelsey Nicolay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Nov 1 18:56:59 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2013 11:56:59 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <1B8C3065-9B34-4BF7-9FB1-02FE8526278D@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> <9AA9CBBF-20F8-416F-88EB-8155890E7CE9@gmail.com> <5273A797.5090808@tysdomain.com> <1B8C3065-9B34-4BF7-9FB1-02FE8526278D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good morning, Kurt, and other threadmates, I so appreciate ways in which skills of wholistic memory recall and imaging, cited by Kurt are usually essential in establishing personal orientation. However, for me, while I do establish relationships between features of my immediate environment, when it comes to memorizing them, my own "picture" of what surrounds me consists primarily of many a fragment. Yet, the way in which said fragments fit together does somehow knit together in my mind's eye to create a sort of mental picture, one suited for my brain that, combined with pretty refined echolocation, perhaps compensates for short term memory loss? for today,Carly 408-209-3239 relying on all that stuff that is "in the way", so for me that's something I wouldn't want to give up, even partially. Especially since I like to travel a lot and that often puts me in areas where I have never been before it all. But, and I say this with full sincerity, i'm glad you found a method that works better for you and I have no business trying to tell anybody else that the way I travel is superior to the way you travel but I know plenty of dog users Who won't give me that same courtesy and say things like our friend James did about long white canes, only referring to dogs instead. I appreciate that you aren't doing that. Thank you. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 7:07 AM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > I'm really glad Minh pointed this out because I had totally forgotten it. I also got O'mally after I was already in college--my campus wasn't huge, but it was larger. If you are really spacial, it helps to know where stuff is before the dog because you will still need to be oriented. I just transferred to a new college with O'mally and it was a bit harder for me to figure stuff out sometimes--even if the campus is smaller. I found that taking my cane out and walking around a bit was really useful in getting an idea of where I am. > > Also Kert, for me that's one of the bonuses to a guide. If I'm learning a new area and need to find landmarks, you can "heel" your guide (just have them walk next to you and not work), and just use a cane you can carry around to find a specific landmark--perhaps a bench next to the bus stop or something. Then you can pattern your guide to find that specific bench. It's the best of both worlds--you evade all the stuff in your way while being able to tell them which specific things to find. > > Someone else already mentioned leashes and bowls--you will need to buy bowls and toys and food, the school gives you a leash. I've had O'Mally for about two years now and I don't really need another leash--I know of a lady that had about 5 guides and just kept using the same leash. A lot of schools also help with vet costs (if the finances are an issue with you, this might be something you think about when choosing a school), as well as flea and heartworm medications. There are other little things you need to do for your guide, but like I said if you have a bit of extra money it's well worth it. O'Mally might cost $45 a month usually with the random toy or something every once in a while as a bit extra. That's less than my phone bill--and a cost I don't really mind at all. >> On 11/1/2013 2:22 AM, minh ha wrote: >> Haley, >> >> People have given you amazing advice regarding whether or not to get a >> guide, but I just want to add that you should seriously think about >> when would be an appropriate time for you to do so. Before entering my >> freshman year of college last year, I was very insistent on getting a >> guide to ease my transition to college. For various reasons, that >> didn't work out and I am extremely glad I didn't have a dog to take >> care of while I was struggling with adjusting to college. Freshman >> year is really hard for most people and I don't think I could have >> handled the stress of a dog as well as the myriad other demands of >> campus life. That being said, I went to GDB over the summer and got my >> first guide, Viva and she has dramatically made it easier to travel >> around my campus and the surrounding city. Also, don't worry that youd >> on't know how to take care of a dog; the guide dog school will give >> you all the skills you need in order to effectively take care of your >> guide. I only had cats before I started working with Viva. >> >> Cheers, >> Minh >> >>> On 11/1/13, Kirt wrote: >>> Justin, >>> At the risk of adding fuel to the fire, Tyler has a very good point. His >>> cane users, we can talk about canes all we want I, for instance, don't have >>> any qualms at all explaining why I like my cane and why it works so well for >>> me personally that I've pretty much entirely ruled out getting a dog, though >>> I did consider it at one time. However, I don't really think it's right for >>> me to tell people how guide dog school's work, or what it's like using the >>> dog, beyond perhaps relaying things I've heard from competent dog handlers >>> and making it clear that this isn't an area with which I have any experience >>> or expertise. Imagine if you had a coworker Who maybe was friends with a >>> couple blind students in college or high school, and this person started >>> telling your boss what it's like being blind, even with you in the room. Do >>> you think that would bother you, even a little bit? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "justin williams" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own >>>> business. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>> Tyler >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>> >>>> Justin: >>>> If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the >>>> case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no >>>> experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people >>>> with lack of said experience isn't helpful. >>>> >>>> Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A >>>> lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools >>>> usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask >>>> those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be >>>> someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. >>>> >>>> I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide >>>> dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good >>>> mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention >>>> that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. >>>> >>>> HTH, >>>>> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >>>>> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >>>>> Sumner >>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>>> >>>>> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn >>>>> everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all >>>>> of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to >>>>> see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are >>>>> there any guide dog lists that I could join? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t >>>>>> know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra >>>>>> funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, >>>>>> but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The >>>>>> question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog >>>>>> as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if >>>>>> handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition >>>>>> to the life or their owner. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>>>>> >>>>>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >>>>>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of >>>>>> my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just >>>>>> works very well for me And, you know that saying about if it ain't >>>>>>> broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of >>>>>> travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of >>>>>> personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest >>>>>> that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before >>>>>> you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs >>>>>> in and of themselves but the majority of people I know geet dogs do it >>>>>> because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog >>>>>> probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get >>>>>> quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then >>>>>> decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a >>>>>> dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to >>>>>> you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that >>>>>> decision. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>>>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in >>>>>>> about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still >>>>>>> unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the >>>>>>> cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better >>>>>>> travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about >>>>>>> your experiences and preferences. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Haley Sumner >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>>>>> 40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >>>>>> global.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >>>>> 0gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>> com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 19:12:56 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 13:12:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher In-Reply-To: <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid> References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com> <8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hi Kelsey, I think the National Organization of Blind Educators list that Lucy mentioned would be a great resource. I've been to a couple of their meetings and they share a lot about classroom management. From what I've learned from them, blind teachers do often have a sighted aide in the classroom, but this isn't an uncommon thing for teachers to have regardless of blindness. As the teacher you are still the main one in charge of the class and the material. Also, Erik Weihenmeyer, the blind guy who climbed Mount Everest, was a fifth-grade teacher in Arizona. He taught some of my sighted friends growing up, and I remember going to visit his class. Best, Arielle On 11/1/13, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Kelsey, > > If you are interested in teaching French in the public schools, I can > put you in touch with a blind person who has done this successfully > for over 30 years. Please write me off-list if you are interested in > talking with him. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> Hi Kelsey! >> You could teach Frinch in the public school system. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Darian Smith >> [dsmithnfb at gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:20 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher >> >> Helloo Kelsey, >> >> Thank you for posting this question. >> I doubt that I’ll be the last person to say so, but I know for a fact >> that a blind person can teach sighted students. I have friends who are >> either currently teaching or studying to teach. >> I imagine that there are people on this list that can speak directly to >> this. >> If you like, I can be sure to connect you with some of the folks I know >> that can answer some of your questions, just contact me off-list. >> Otherwise, I am sure that some early helpful suggestions and experiences >> will be forthcoming. >> >> Thanks again. >> >> Darian >> >>> On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:54 AM, Kelsey Nicolay >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I >>> am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are >>> no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. >>> However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my >>> student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school >>> at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that >>> there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a >>> work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool >>> teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was >>> talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a >>> little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind >>> and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about >>> this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided >>> that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be >>> ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you >>> majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions >>> on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in >>> the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively >>> without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first >>> grade. >>> "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. >>> Thanks, >>> Kelsey Nicolay >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Nov 1 19:17:01 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 15:17:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <830BD31D-4588-4C2F-825F-1AFFAEFF6667@fuse.net> Message-ID: <0FC63CDC-E08B-44F8-8053-666B1CBB4DAB@fuse.net> I should have clarified that. I meant more along the lines of advocacy, meaning in the sense of telling others that they can not pet the dog while it is working, that sort of thing, along with advocating for the dogs rights if say you are told you cannnot bring the dog someplace where ADA says it can be done. Although this does not happen today as much as it used to, these situations still arise and you need to be able to make your case in a clear, firm but respectful way. There was probably a better term for the social skills thing. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 11:55 AM, minh ha wrote: > > I agree that social interaction should not be the only motivating > factor in a person getting a dog, but what does social skills have to > do with anything? If I was a reclusive person that doesn't like to > interact with other people, as long as I have the necessary travel > skills, then it really doesn't matter whether or not I have the > ability to socialize. > > Minh > >> On 10/31/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> Hi. I have similar views of Kurt, although it is a personal choice. However, >> another point that I do not think anyone has brouht up is the use of the dog >> in social situations. Yes, the dog may attract conversation. However, this >> should not be the main motivator in getting the dog, and the dog should not >> blatantly be used for these purposes. I thinnk there needs to be a good >> amount of social skills, as well as travel skills, but that is just ;my >> personal opinion. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Kirt wrote: >>> >>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my >>> life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works >>> very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then >>> why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is >>> inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal >>> preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you >>> have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even >>> consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of >>> themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their >>> travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't >>> fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training >>> with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works From kaybaycar at gmail.com Fri Nov 1 20:41:24 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 15:41:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <0FC63CDC-E08B-44F8-8053-666B1CBB4DAB@fuse.net> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <830BD31D-4588-4C2F-825F-1AFFAEFF6667@fuse.net> <0FC63CDC-E08B-44F8-8053-666B1CBB4DAB@fuse.net> Message-ID: Hi Haley and all, I agree with what has been said in previous posts. As someone who chose to get a guide dog while still in high school, I know what it's like to decide when to get the dog. I know there are students(maybe even some on this list) who have gotten guide dogs the summer before entering college, but I decided against it. When you get a dog, you will spend the first 6 months or so working on your bond with the dog. You and the dog will be learning about each other. You will make mistakes because you are a new dog user, and the dog will test you. Of course, this doesn't mean that you won't be successful. It just means that you will have some work to do. I found the work rewarding, but it's up to you whether or not you want to pursue this path before entering college or even at all. Yes, a dog can be a wonderful conversation starter, but I agree with the others. You not only need to develop the strength to tell people(even people in authority) no if they ask to pet, if you decide that you don't want people petting your dog while it is working, but you need to be aware that you will be stared at and talked about wherever you go. This happens as blind people anyway, but with a dog, it seems more frequent or more obvious. I don't mind this... As a performer, I figure I should get used to being watched. Lol That is up to you of course. You also should be aware that while most people will move from asking you about the dog to discussing topics outside the world of blindness and dogs, others will not, and that can be somewhat annoying. I think the others covered everything else, except I believe there are programs for high school students to go to guide dog schools for two weeks or so in the Summer and test out a guide dog. I think Seeing Eye has one, which is like a mock training program for a week or two. I don't know where you live, and I don't know how these things work, but they are meant for teenagers to see if they would like to apply for a guide dog some day. As far as I know Seeing Eye, Guiding Eyes for the Blind, and Leader Dogs have programs like this, but I could be mistaken. Let me know if you would like me to help you do research into something like that. I am also a board member of the National Association of Guide dog Users, so if you need any help with anything, please feel free to email me off list. On 11/1/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: > I should have clarified that. I meant more along the lines of advocacy, > meaning in the sense of telling others that they can not pet the dog while > it is working, that sort of thing, along with advocating for the dogs rights > if say you are told you cannnot bring the dog someplace where ADA says it > can be done. Although this does not happen today as much as it used to, > these situations still arise and you need to be able to make your case in a > clear, firm but respectful way. There was probably a better term for the > social skills thing. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 11:55 AM, minh ha wrote: >> >> I agree that social interaction should not be the only motivating >> factor in a person getting a dog, but what does social skills have to >> do with anything? If I was a reclusive person that doesn't like to >> interact with other people, as long as I have the necessary travel >> skills, then it really doesn't matter whether or not I have the >> ability to socialize. >> >> Minh >> >>> On 10/31/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>> Hi. I have similar views of Kurt, although it is a personal choice. >>> However, >>> another point that I do not think anyone has brouht up is the use of the >>> dog >>> in social situations. Yes, the dog may attract conversation. However, >>> this >>> should not be the main motivator in getting the dog, and the dog should >>> not >>> blatantly be used for these purposes. I thinnk there needs to be a good >>> amount of social skills, as well as travel skills, but that is just ;my >>> personal opinion. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>> >>>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >>>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of >>>> my >>>> life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works >>>> very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then >>>> why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is >>>> inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal >>>> preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you >>>> have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even >>>> consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and >>>> of >>>> themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because >>>> their >>>> travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably >>>> won't >>>> fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training >>>> with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Fri Nov 1 21:10:00 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 17:10:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher In-Reply-To: <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid> References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com><8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hi Chris, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm interested in learning the French language. Do you know, where I can learn it, or who can teach me the language? Thanks and God bless! -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 2:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Kelsey, If you are interested in teaching French in the public schools, I can put you in touch with a blind person who has done this successfully for over 30 years. Please write me off-list if you are interested in talking with him. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Hi Kelsey! > You could teach Frinch in the public school system. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Darian Smith > [dsmithnfb at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:20 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher > > Helloo Kelsey, > > Thank you for posting this question. > I doubt that I’ll be the last person to say so, but I know for a fact > that a blind person can teach sighted students. I have friends who are > either currently teaching or studying to teach. > I imagine that there are people on this list that can speak directly to > this. > If you like, I can be sure to connect you with some of the folks I know > that can answer some of your questions, just contact me off-list. > Otherwise, I am sure that some early helpful suggestions and experiences > will be forthcoming. > > Thanks again. > > Darian > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:54 AM, Kelsey Nicolay >> wrote: >> >> Hello, >> I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I >> am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are >> no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. >> However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my >> student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school >> at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that >> there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a >> work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool >> teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was >> talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a >> little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind >> and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about >> this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided >> that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be >> ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you >> majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions >> on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in >> the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively >> without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first >> grade. >> "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. >> Thanks, >> Kelsey Nicolay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Fri Nov 1 21:16:25 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 17:16:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher In-Reply-To: <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid> References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com><8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hi Chris, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm interested in learning the French language. Do you know, where I can learn it, or who can teach me the language? I will really appreciate it if you could give me some suggestions. Thanks and God bless!! -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 2:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Kelsey, If you are interested in teaching French in the public schools, I can put you in touch with a blind person who has done this successfully for over 30 years. Please write me off-list if you are interested in talking with him. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Hi Kelsey! > You could teach Frinch in the public school system. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Darian Smith > [dsmithnfb at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:20 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher > > Helloo Kelsey, > > Thank you for posting this question. > I doubt that I’ll be the last person to say so, but I know for a fact > that a blind person can teach sighted students. I have friends who are > either currently teaching or studying to teach. > I imagine that there are people on this list that can speak directly to > this. > If you like, I can be sure to connect you with some of the folks I know > that can answer some of your questions, just contact me off-list. > Otherwise, I am sure that some early helpful suggestions and experiences > will be forthcoming. > > Thanks again. > > Darian > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:54 AM, Kelsey Nicolay >> wrote: >> >> Hello, >> I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I >> am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are >> no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. >> However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my >> student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school >> at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that >> there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a >> work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool >> teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was >> talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a >> little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind >> and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about >> this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided >> that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be >> ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you >> majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions >> on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in >> the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively >> without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first >> grade. >> "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. >> Thanks, >> Kelsey Nicolay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 1 21:20:30 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 21:20:30 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher In-Reply-To: References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com><8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid>, Message-ID: Hi, Helga. Check with your college and see if they teach Frinch. If not, I have a friend who used to teach Frinch in our school, and now she teaches Algebra. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 4:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Hi Chris, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm interested in learning the French language. Do you know, where I can learn it, or who can teach me the language? I will really appreciate it if you could give me some suggestions. Thanks and God bless!! -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 2:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Kelsey, If you are interested in teaching French in the public schools, I can put you in touch with a blind person who has done this successfully for over 30 years. Please write me off-list if you are interested in talking with him. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Hi Kelsey! > You could teach Frinch in the public school system. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Darian Smith > [dsmithnfb at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:20 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher > > Helloo Kelsey, > > Thank you for posting this question. > I doubt that I’ll be the last person to say so, but I know for a fact > that a blind person can teach sighted students. I have friends who are > either currently teaching or studying to teach. > I imagine that there are people on this list that can speak directly to > this. > If you like, I can be sure to connect you with some of the folks I know > that can answer some of your questions, just contact me off-list. > Otherwise, I am sure that some early helpful suggestions and experiences > will be forthcoming. > > Thanks again. > > Darian > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:54 AM, Kelsey Nicolay >> wrote: >> >> Hello, >> I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I >> am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are >> no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. >> However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my >> student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school >> at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that >> there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a >> work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool >> teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was >> talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a >> little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind >> and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about >> this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided >> that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be >> ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you >> majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions >> on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in >> the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively >> without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first >> grade. >> "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. >> Thanks, >> Kelsey Nicolay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From leyeshprintse at ymail.com Sat Nov 2 08:13:53 2013 From: leyeshprintse at ymail.com (=?utf-8?Q?Leye-Shprintse_=C3=96berg?=) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 09:13:53 +0100 Subject: [nabs-l] French (Was: blind person becoming a teacher) In-Reply-To: References: <5273b2bb.03de320a.61be.ffff9da4@mx.google.com> <8F41103B-AC15-4A00-A9AE-7B3D59C76EEE@gmail.com> <4836516175312661260@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: BS"D Helga, Since you're a college student I'd look up if your college is giving French! Anyhow, French is fun and France is a fabulous country! :) Bonne chance ! Lesholom, Mlle. Leye-Shprintse Öberg Courriel : leyeshprintse at ymail.com Journal : http://leyeshprintse.com Envoyé de mon iPad 1 nov 2013 kl. 22:10 skrev "Helga Schreiber" : Hi Chris, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I'm interested in learning the French language. Do you know, where I can learn it, or who can teach me the language? Thanks and God bless! -----Original Message----- From: christopher nusbaum Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 2:36 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher Kelsey, If you are interested in teaching French in the public schools, I can put you in touch with a blind person who has done this successfully for over 30 years. Please write me off-list if you are interested in talking with him. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Hi Kelsey! > You could teach Frinch in the public school system. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Darian Smith [dsmithnfb at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 9:20 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] blind person becoming a teacher > > Helloo Kelsey, > > Thank you for posting this question. > I doubt that I’ll be the last person to say so, but I know for a fact that a blind person can teach sighted students. I have friends who are either currently teaching or studying to teach. > I imagine that there are people on this list that can speak directly to this. > If you like, I can be sure to connect you with some of the folks I know that can answer some of your questions, just contact me off-list. Otherwise, I am sure that some early helpful suggestions and experiences will be forthcoming. > > Thanks again. > > Darian > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 6:54 AM, Kelsey Nicolay wrote: >> >> Hello, >> I completed my undergraduate studies in communications and French, but I am finding that the French is not being useful to me at all since "ow are no jobs in the French field. Communications is a little better. However, ever since I started tutoring my two students, especially my student who is in kindergarten, I think I would like to go back to school at some point to become a teacher. Family members keep telling me that there is no way I could be a teacher, but I think otherwise. I went to a work and learn camp in 2007 with a girl who wanted to be a preschool teacher. I don't know if she eventually persued that or not, but she was talking about it. We both had the same eye condition but she had a little more vision than I do but she is still considered legally blind and uses Braille and JAWS. So my question is, what do you think about this? Can someone who is totally blind be a teacher? I already decided that I would not want middle or high school, but early childhood would be ok, especially kindergarten. Did anyone major in education or are you majoring in education right now that you could give me some suggestions on how I could make this happen? I know I would probably need an aide in the classroom, right? Also, how would I manage my class effectively without vision? I think I would want to teach kindergarten or first grade. >> "To ó please share your thoughts and experiences. >> Thanks, >> Kelsey Nicolay >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/leyeshprintse%40ymail.com From haleysumner at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 2 17:13:40 2013 From: haleysumner at sbcglobal.net (Haley Sumner) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 13:13:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <830BD31D-4588-4C2F-825F-1AFFAEFF6667@fuse.net> <0FC63CDC-E08B-44F8-8053-666B1CBB4DAB@fuse.net> Message-ID: <16BF10C7-0D96-4A9A-8EF8-85253C5E9E34@sbcglobal.net> Thanks everyone for your input, recommendations, and advice. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 1, 2013, at 4:41 PM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > > Hi Haley and all, > > I agree with what has been said in previous posts. As someone who > chose to get a guide dog while still in high school, I know what it's > like to decide when to get the dog. I know there are students(maybe > even some on this list) who have gotten guide dogs the summer before > entering college, but I decided against it. When you get a dog, you > will spend the first 6 months or so working on your bond with the dog. > You and the dog will be learning about each other. You will make > mistakes because you are a new dog user, and the dog will test you. > Of course, this doesn't mean that you won't be successful. It just > means that you will have some work to do. I found the work rewarding, > but it's up to you whether or not you want to pursue this path before > entering college or even at all. > > Yes, a dog can be a wonderful conversation starter, but I agree with > the others. You not only need to develop the strength to tell > people(even people in authority) no if they ask to pet, if you decide > that you don't want people petting your dog while it is working, but > you need to be aware that you will be stared at and talked about > wherever you go. This happens as blind people anyway, but with a dog, > it seems more frequent or more obvious. I don't mind this... As a > performer, I figure I should get used to being watched. Lol That is > up to you of course. You also should be aware that while most people > will move from asking you about the dog to discussing topics outside > the world of blindness and dogs, others will not, and that can be > somewhat annoying. > > I think the others covered everything else, except I believe there are > programs for high school students to go to guide dog schools for two > weeks or so in the Summer and test out a guide dog. I think Seeing > Eye has one, which is like a mock training program for a week or two. > I don't know where you live, and I don't know how these things work, > but they are meant for teenagers to see if they would like to apply > for a guide dog some day. As far as I know Seeing Eye, Guiding Eyes > for the Blind, and Leader Dogs have programs like this, but I could be > mistaken. Let me know if you would like me to help you do research > into something like that. I am also a board member of the National > Association of Guide dog Users, so if you need any help with anything, > please feel free to email me off list. > > > >> On 11/1/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> I should have clarified that. I meant more along the lines of advocacy, >> meaning in the sense of telling others that they can not pet the dog while >> it is working, that sort of thing, along with advocating for the dogs rights >> if say you are told you cannnot bring the dog someplace where ADA says it >> can be done. Although this does not happen today as much as it used to, >> these situations still arise and you need to be able to make your case in a >> clear, firm but respectful way. There was probably a better term for the >> social skills thing. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 1, 2013, at 11:55 AM, minh ha wrote: >>> >>> I agree that social interaction should not be the only motivating >>> factor in a person getting a dog, but what does social skills have to >>> do with anything? If I was a reclusive person that doesn't like to >>> interact with other people, as long as I have the necessary travel >>> skills, then it really doesn't matter whether or not I have the >>> ability to socialize. >>> >>> Minh >>> >>>> On 10/31/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: >>>> Hi. I have similar views of Kurt, although it is a personal choice. >>>> However, >>>> another point that I do not think anyone has brouht up is the use of the >>>> dog >>>> in social situations. Yes, the dog may attract conversation. However, >>>> this >>>> should not be the main motivator in getting the dog, and the dog should >>>> not >>>> blatantly be used for these purposes. I thinnk there needs to be a good >>>> amount of social skills, as well as travel skills, but that is just ;my >>>> personal opinion. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:03 PM, Kirt wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy >>>>> dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of >>>>> my >>>>> life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works >>>>> very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then >>>>> why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is >>>>> inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal >>>>> preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you >>>>> have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even >>>>> consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and >>>>> of >>>>> themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because >>>>> their >>>>> travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably >>>>> won't >>>>> fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training >>>>> with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbcglobal.net From mary.nelle at earthlink.net Sat Nov 2 18:41:47 2013 From: mary.nelle at earthlink.net (Mary Nelle McLennan) Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2013 13:41:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [BANA-Announce] BANA's UEB Transition Forum Brings Braille Leaders Together to Plan Message-ID: [] Press Release October 31, 2013 For Immediate Release CONTACT: Frances Mary D’Andrea, Chair Braille Authority of North America Phone: 412-521-5797 Email: literacy2 at mindspring.com BANA’S UEB Transition Forum Brings Braille Leaders Together to Plan Planning for the implementation of Unified English Braille (UEB) took a huge step forward on Wednesday, October 16, when the Braille Authority of North America convened 48 delegates representing 31 organizations from the braille community in a UEB Transition Forum in Louisville, KY. The Forum was a full day of collaborative planning designed to help delegates and their representative organizations determine the steps and timetable through which the United States will make an effective transition to Unified English Braille. The Forum, organized and facilitated by BANA, provided the rare opportunity for delegates from various braille-related communities to meet face-to-face. The ambitious agenda focused on identifying specific actions and strategies required to develop plans for a smooth and effective implementation of UEB. Forum planners recognize that the transition plan must take into consideration all aspects of using, learning, teaching, and producing braille. With that as a guiding principle, the Forum was organized into facilitated workgroups through which Forum delegates identified and prioritized actions needed in the following areas: · quality UEB training for transcribers, proofreaders, and educators; · the building of UEB transcription capacity; · system adjustments for the procurement and delivery of braille materials in UEB; · a smooth transition to UEB for children’s braille reading and writing instruction and educational assessments; · a smooth transition of adults’ braille instruction to UEB and increased knowledge of UEB among adults who already use braille. The delegates to the Forum acknowledged that the transition to UEB will take time and necessitate extensive preparation and collaboration among all the systems and infrastructures involved. Their work on October 16 laid a foundation that will help leaders build a carefully crafted timeline and coordinated plan. Detailed timelines are under development by individual organizations, and transition efforts are now being initiated. The consensus of the delegates was that January 2016 is a reasonable target date for the implementation of UEB. The work accomplished at the Forum will assist the braille community as it builds and adapts the infrastructure necessary to meet the proposed implementation date. BANA’s UEB Task Force as well as the BANA Board will meet in early November in Louisville. At this meeting, they will discuss the transition to UEB with the goal of setting a definite implementation date, which will then be formally announced. NOTE: This press release is available in HTML on the BANA website at http://www.brailleauthority.org/pressreleases/pr-2013-10-31.html. For additional resource information, visit www.brailleauthority.org The Board of BANA consists of appointed representatives from seventeen member organizations of braille producers, transcribers, teachers, and consumers. The mission of the Braille Authority of North America is to assure literacy for tactile readers through the standardization of braille and/or tactile graphics. The purpose of BANA is to promote and to facilitate the uses, teaching, and production of braille. Pursuant to this purpose, BANA will promulgate rules, make interpretations, and render opinions pertaining to braille codes and guidelines for the provisions of literary and technical materials and related forms and formats of embossed materials now in existence or to be developed in the future for the use of blind persons in North America. When appropriate, BANA shall accomplish these activities in international collaboration with countries using English braille. In exercising its function and authority, BANA shall consider the effects of its decisions on other existing braille codes and guidelines, forms and formats; ease of production by various methods; and acceptability to readers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3339d5.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4211 bytes Desc: not available URL: From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 2 23:31:41 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 18:31:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? In-Reply-To: <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> References: <1383264312.85708.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web182201.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <004e01ced6a1$a3a21430$eae63c90$@gmail.com> <118CBAA5-A091-4D29-9CF8-433FE9308966@sbcglobal.net> <006001ced6aa$b964d2e0$2c2e78a0$@gmail.com> <527317D4.7060600@tysdomain.com> <006101ced6bc$e2742020$a75c6060$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Break it up gents! We are all here to help each other. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 31, 2013, at 11:43 PM, "justin williams" wrote: > > I'm not the only cane user who has answered questions. Mind your own business. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? > > Justin: > If I remember correctly, you said you do not have a dog. If this is the case, please refrane from answering questions when you have had no experience. She is already confused enough as is--random input from people with lack of said experience isn't helpful. > > Haley, the school will indeed teach you some of what you need to know. A lot of it though comes from time with your dog and experience. The schools usually also have support lines and there are lists where you can ask those random questions that pop up--undoubtedly there will always be someone who can help out and you'll have your support center. > > I also wanted to mention since I forgot to in my last post that a guide dog is by no means a replacement for a cane. You will still need good mobility skills in order to utilize a good dog. Just wanted to mention that is all--I'm sure you already figured that out. > > HTH, >> On 10/31/2013 10:33 PM, justin williams wrote: >> The school will teach you everything you need to no. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Haley >> Sumner >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >> >> I love dogs, but have never had one of my own. So I have to learn everything in order to independently take care of the dog on top of all of the stress. I'm trying to weigh all of the positives and negatives to see what is best for me. Thanks for all of your suggestions :-) are there any guide dog lists that I could join? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:28 PM, "justin williams" wrote: >>> >>> There is no one way that is superior. I am a cane user, and I don’t know if I will get a dog or not. At this time, I don't have the extra funds to feed and care for it. I could adapt to using one just fine, but the cane ain't broke, so why fix it at least for right now. The question I have for you is, are you an individual who would like a dog as a travel buddy, companion and friend? They are wonderful, and if handled skillfully, are great at their job and are a wonderful addition to the life or their owner. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt >>> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Guide Dog or Cane? Which do u recommend and why? >>> >>> Haley, I am the cane user and, while I have not ever experienced a guy dog, i'm pretty convinced that I'll stick with my cane for the rest of my life unless something drastic happens to change my mind. It just works very well for me… And, you know that saying about if it ain't broke then why fix it? That being said, I don't think either method of travel is inherently better than the other, it's entirely a matter of personal preference and style. That being said, I would strongly suggest that you have good travel skills and are competent with the cane before you even consider getting a dog. Again, canes x are not superior to dogs in and of themselves… but the majority of people I know get dogs do it because their travel skills are not up to par and, like it or not, I dog probably won't fix that problem. I would strongly encourage you to get quality training with the structured discovery travel method and then decide what works best for you at that point. If that happens to be a dog instead of a cane for the majority of your travel, more power to you. Just make sure you are a competent traveler before you make that decision. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 6:05 PM, haley sumner wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello fellow Nabsters, >>>> I am in the process of deciding whether or not to get a guide dog in about a year and a half, right before I go to college, and am still unsure whether i should go through with this or just stick with the cane. What do you all recommend? Which do you feel is better travel-wise, social-wise, etc. I am looking forward to hearing about your experiences and preferences. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Haley Sumner >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 >>>> 0gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbc >>> global.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 >> 0gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net From lissa1531 at gmail.com Sun Nov 3 03:51:22 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2013 21:51:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] conference call. Message-ID: Hello all. First, don't forget to turn your clocks back an hour. Next, in colorado we will be having our first conference call since state convention. On sunday at 4:00PM standard time. The number to call is: 712-432-1500 and entering access code 564151. The agenda is as follows: introductions secretary's report treasurer's report and discussion on finances. fundraising the Listservs first discussion topic: getting a guide dog Is the dog right for you and points to consider. Suggestions and questions concerning guide dog work such as distractions. nex meeting. Best, Melissa Green and Pj "There's a God that loves you, you matter, & you have value & purpose." From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 07:55:22 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 02:55:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Juicing book reader in my braille note apex Message-ID: Hi guys, this is Helga. Does anybody use a BrailleNote Apex here? Just to let u know, I always download books from Bard, and I use Book Reader in my BrailleNote in order to read them. But for some reason the books that I downloaded from Bard are not in the Book Reader. Actually, whenever I go to my Book Reader, my BrailleNote keeps saying "no more items," and I don't know why it's acting weird. It was working well before, but this problem started today. Do you guys know what can I do about it? I'm actually very worry about it. Thanks and God bless!! :-) Sent from my iPhone From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sun Nov 3 07:59:53 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 02:59:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Juicing book reader in my braille note apex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, I forgot to tell you that I didn't delete my books! :-) Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 3, 2013, at 2:56 AM, "Helga Schreiber" wrote: > > > > Hi guys, this is Helga. Does anybody use a BrailleNote Apex here? Just to let u know, I always download books from Bard, and I use Book Reader in my BrailleNote in order to read them. But for some reason the books that I downloaded from Bard are not in the Book Reader. Actually, whenever I go to my Book Reader, my BrailleNote keeps saying "no more items," and I don't know why it's acting weird. It was working well before, but this problem started today. Do you guys know what can I do about it? I'm actually very worry about it. Thanks and God bless!! :-) Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Nov 3 08:01:48 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 08:01:48 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Juicing book reader in my braille note apex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5480e305b3204778a386508e58b524af@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> I'd E-Mail HumanWare about it. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 1:55 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Juicing book reader in my braille note apex Hi guys, this is Helga. Does anybody use a BrailleNote Apex here? Just to let u know, I always download books from Bard, and I use Book Reader in my BrailleNote in order to read them. But for some reason the books that I downloaded from Bard are not in the Book Reader. Actually, whenever I go to my Book Reader, my BrailleNote keeps saying "no more items," and I don't know why it's acting weird. It was working well before, but this problem started today. Do you guys know what can I do about it? I'm actually very worry about it. Thanks and God bless!! :-) Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Nov 3 08:03:01 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 08:03:01 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Juicing book reader in my braille note apex In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I knew that, because it's a common problem with Braille Notes. My former TVI said that his students that have the Apexes, are having the same issues! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 1:59 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Juicing book reader in my braille note apex Also, I forgot to tell you that I didn't delete my books! :-) Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 3, 2013, at 2:56 AM, "Helga Schreiber" wrote: > > > > Hi guys, this is Helga. Does anybody use a BrailleNote Apex here? Just to let u know, I always download books from Bard, and I use Book Reader in my BrailleNote in order to read them. But for some reason the books that I downloaded from Bard are not in the Book Reader. Actually, whenever I go to my Book Reader, my BrailleNote keeps saying "no more items," and I don't know why it's acting weird. It was working well before, but this problem started today. Do you guys know what can I do about it? I'm actually very worry about it. Thanks and God bless!! :-) Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 01:25:56 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 20:25:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] neonatal nurse In-Reply-To: References: <1da3574aa9e8440aa471bdbabee62752@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi, Another tactic I've used with some success is to site people before you that have successfully done the job. The college I had the most success with, and the one where I attend now, had professors in my major who knew the woman I volunteered under for my four years of high school. It helped that since they knew she was excelent at her job as a blind person that I could be too. Try NAND as Lillie suggested, and see if you can find any blind or visually impaired nurses out there. Career Connect and even Google could be other sources to turn to. The MDs that Arielle mentioned would also be good people to use if you can find nothing else, but see if you can find someone who is in current practice. If you can, try to see if you can talk to them or get permission to refer any doubting professors to them. Having a mentor in your field is an invaluable resource, both for you and your professors. I hope you are able to find someone. Good question! On 11/1/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Oops. Its organization, not association. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 1, 2013, at 12:04 AM, Lillie Pennington >> wrote: >> >> You should also check out nond, national association of nurses of >> disabilities. Their website is at www.nnond.org. I hope this helps. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:36 PM, Arielle Silverman >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Keira, >>> >>> Welcome to the list! >>> I would recommend starting one step at a time, by taking some basic >>> nursing classes. You should not face much, if any, discouragement at >>> this early stage, and the basic classes will help you learn more about >>> the nursing field. If you do decide to continue and get your nursing >>> degree, and run into naysayers later, you will have more detailed >>> knowledge to share with them about how you will do the job as a blind >>> person. >>> >>> I'd imagine that being a PCA is completely accessible, and that being >>> a nurse is mostly accessible. There may be a few things with regard to >>> measuring medications that are not accessible without some tweaking, >>> but you could do it in collaboration with a sighted nurse or medical >>> assistant. >>> >>> I know of blind people who have drawn blood and performed very basic >>> surgical procedures as medical students. There is a book called White >>> Coat, White Cane, written by a blind guy named David Hartman who >>> obtained his M.D. and performed such procedures during his training. >>> Tim Cordes is another blind psychiatrist who went through an M.D. >>> program. Nursing and doctoring are different things, but it seems that >>> if these folks were able to do blood draws nonvisually, you should be >>> able to handle giving injections and other nursing duties. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 10/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> Keira, I must ask this question. >>>> Do you have any sight at all? >>>> If so, you may be able to do some things. >>>> PCA's may require little to no sight. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Keira Davis >>>> [keke.davis91 at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:57 AM >>>> To: sandragayer7 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>>> mailing >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From kaybaycar at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 01:43:54 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 19:43:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] neonatal nurse In-Reply-To: References: <1da3574aa9e8440aa471bdbabee62752@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Keira, The president of the Missouri Association of Blind Students may be able to help you. She currently works as a personal care attendant and (as I understand it) does some nursely type things. If you email me off list, I can probably put you too in contact. On 11/3/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi, > > Another tactic I've used with some success is to site people before > you that have successfully done the job. The college I had the most > success with, and the one where I attend now, had professors in my > major who knew the woman I volunteered under for my four years of high > school. It helped that since they knew she was excelent at her job as > a blind person that I could be too. > > Try NAND as Lillie suggested, and see if you can find any blind or > visually impaired nurses out there. Career Connect and even Google > could be other sources to turn to. The MDs that Arielle mentioned > would also be good people to use if you can find nothing else, but see > if you can find someone who is in current practice. If you can, try > to see if you can talk to them or get permission to refer any doubting > professors to them. Having a mentor in your field is an invaluable > resource, both for you and your professors. > > I hope you are able to find someone. Good question! > > On 11/1/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> Oops. Its organization, not association. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 1, 2013, at 12:04 AM, Lillie Pennington >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> You should also check out nond, national association of nurses of >>> disabilities. Their website is at www.nnond.org. I hope this helps. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Oct 31, 2013, at 9:36 PM, Arielle Silverman >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Keira, >>>> >>>> Welcome to the list! >>>> I would recommend starting one step at a time, by taking some basic >>>> nursing classes. You should not face much, if any, discouragement at >>>> this early stage, and the basic classes will help you learn more about >>>> the nursing field. If you do decide to continue and get your nursing >>>> degree, and run into naysayers later, you will have more detailed >>>> knowledge to share with them about how you will do the job as a blind >>>> person. >>>> >>>> I'd imagine that being a PCA is completely accessible, and that being >>>> a nurse is mostly accessible. There may be a few things with regard to >>>> measuring medications that are not accessible without some tweaking, >>>> but you could do it in collaboration with a sighted nurse or medical >>>> assistant. >>>> >>>> I know of blind people who have drawn blood and performed very basic >>>> surgical procedures as medical students. There is a book called White >>>> Coat, White Cane, written by a blind guy named David Hartman who >>>> obtained his M.D. and performed such procedures during his training. >>>> Tim Cordes is another blind psychiatrist who went through an M.D. >>>> program. Nursing and doctoring are different things, but it seems that >>>> if these folks were able to do blood draws nonvisually, you should be >>>> able to handle giving injections and other nursing duties. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 10/30/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> Keira, I must ask this question. >>>>> Do you have any sight at all? >>>>> If so, you may be able to do some things. >>>>> PCA's may require little to no sight. >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Keira Davis >>>>> [keke.davis91 at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:57 AM >>>>> To: sandragayer7 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students >>>>> mailing >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From sparklylicious at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 04:56:09 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 20:56:09 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files Message-ID: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> Hello list, I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I look forward to your responses. Best, Hannah chadwick University of California, Davis CA From clb5590 at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 06:53:46 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2013 22:53:46 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Hannah, Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and graphics are messy. Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as bookshare. That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook scanning. Cindy On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Hello list, > I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot of > documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just wondering > how you read these file types? I've been converting most of them in to word > files, however when I do, they become very messy. I look forward to your > responses. > Best, Hannah chadwick > University of California, Davis CA > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 09:04:05 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 04:04:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I also use Kurzweil to convert pdf's into word documents as they are easier to read and work with. However, as previously mentioned, they can become very messy if the pdf itself hasn't been formatted right. Another option is robobraille. If you go to robobraille.org, upload a pdf, select your preferences and then type in your email, the site will convert the file for you ad send the conversion to your email. I am still amazed at the quality of the conversions all the time and it saves me time converting a ton of documents in Kurzweil. You should definitely check it out. Cheers, Minh On 11/4/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Hi Hannah, > > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's > accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a > PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There > are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and > Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty successful > with text, tables and graphics are messy. > > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words > with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as > such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that > hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are > others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered > a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a > Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available > for it. > > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere > else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from > journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as > bookshare. > > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good > with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think > there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for > textbook scanning. > > Cindy > > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> Hello list, >> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot of >> documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >> wondering >> how you read these file types? I've been converting most of them in to >> word >> files, however when I do, they become very messy. I look forward to your >> responses. >> Best, Hannah chadwick >> University of California, Davis CA >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From louvins at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 10:46:16 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 04:46:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Hannah. Like others have already said, I'd use kurzweil to convert the pdf's to either word, or txt. However, an even better option at least to me, is to ask your professors to email you .docx word files instead of pdf files if at all possible. If a teacher if unwilling to do this for whatever reason, you can go to your disability support office and talk to them. However, you are entitled to reasonable acomidations which in this case having readible documents is one of these. If you explain to your teachers that it is a challenge for your to read the documents in pdf format, it has been my expierence that most teachers will be more than happy to help you. In my online science class, I was having trouble reading the review questions online,, and when I emailed my teacher, she emailed me the document in .docx format. Just a quick note, when you do get a .docx file emailed to you, it will most likely be in protected format. This will make it unreadible by jaws. There is an easy solution to this if you do get one of these type of documents. What you do, is download the attached file to whatever is your prefered location on your system. Next, go to the document that is protected. Make sure the document is selected by using your arrow keys. Now hit your aplications key and arrow down, you'll hear edit, now press enter. You will now be able to read the document. I hope I haven't confused you to much. Best of luck. On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: > I also use Kurzweil to convert pdf's into word documents as they are > easier to read and work with. However, as previously mentioned, they > can become very messy if the pdf itself hasn't been formatted right. > Another option is robobraille. If you go to robobraille.org, upload a > pdf, select your preferences and then type in your email, the site > will convert the file for you ad send the conversion to your email. I > am still amazed at the quality of the conversions all the time and it > saves me time converting a ton of documents in Kurzweil. You should > definitely check it out. > > Cheers, > Minh > > On 11/4/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> Hi Hannah, >> >> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >> accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a >> PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There >> are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and >> Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty successful >> with text, tables and graphics are messy. >> >> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >> with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as >> such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that >> hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >> >> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are >> others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered >> a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a >> Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available >> for it. >> >> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >> >> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere >> else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from >> journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. >> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >> bookshare. >> >> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good >> with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think >> there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for >> textbook scanning. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Hello list, >>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot of >>> documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >>> wondering >>> how you read these file types? I've been converting most of them in to >>> word >>> files, however when I do, they become very messy. I look forward to your >>> responses. >>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>> University of California, Davis CA >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From sparklylicious at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 16:13:15 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 08:13:15 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ad01ced978$c5a76d30$50f64790$@gmail.com> Joshua, Thank you for your advice. These documents are not from my professors. I'm doing a research paper and when I looked online for sources, I found a large amount of pdf files. hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Hendrickson Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 2:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hello Hannah. Like others have already said, I'd use kurzweil to convert the pdf's to either word, or txt. However, an even better option at least to me, is to ask your professors to email you .docx word files instead of pdf files if at all possible. If a teacher if unwilling to do this for whatever reason, you can go to your disability support office and talk to them. However, you are entitled to reasonable acomidations which in this case having readible documents is one of these. If you explain to your teachers that it is a challenge for your to read the documents in pdf format, it has been my expierence that most teachers will be more than happy to help you. In my online science class, I was having trouble reading the review questions online,, and when I emailed my teacher, she emailed me the document in .docx format. Just a quick note, when you do get a .docx file emailed to you, it will most likely be in protected format. This will make it unreadible by jaws. There is an easy solution to this if you do get one of these type of documents. What you do, is download the attached file to whatever is your prefered location on your system. Next, go to the document that is protected. Make sure the document is selected by using your arrow keys. Now hit your aplications key and arrow down, you'll hear edit, now press enter. You will now be able to read the document. I hope I haven't confused you to much. Best of luck. On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: > I also use Kurzweil to convert pdf's into word documents as they are > easier to read and work with. However, as previously mentioned, they > can become very messy if the pdf itself hasn't been formatted right. > Another option is robobraille. If you go to robobraille.org, upload a > pdf, select your preferences and then type in your email, the site > will convert the file for you ad send the conversion to your email. I > am still amazed at the quality of the conversions all the time and it > saves me time converting a ton of documents in Kurzweil. You should > definitely check it out. > > Cheers, > Minh > > On 11/4/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> Hi Hannah, >> >> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >> accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open >> a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. >> There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended >> settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is >> pretty successful with text, tables and graphics are messy. >> >> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >> with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns >> as such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found >> that hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >> >> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are >> others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered >> a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to >> a Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically >> available for it. >> >> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >> >> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere >> else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from >> journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. >> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >> bookshare. >> >> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good >> with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think >> there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for >> textbook scanning. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Hello list, >>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a >>> lot of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was >>> just wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting >>> most of them in to word files, however when I do, they become very >>> messy. I look forward to your responses. >>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>> University of California, Davis CA >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om From sparklylicious at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 16:15:22 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 08:15:22 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b101ced979$1138ac00$33aa0400$@gmail.com> Minh, Thank you. I've used robobraille in the past. They are pretty awesome! hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 1:04 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files I also use Kurzweil to convert pdf's into word documents as they are easier to read and work with. However, as previously mentioned, they can become very messy if the pdf itself hasn't been formatted right. Another option is robobraille. If you go to robobraille.org, upload a pdf, select your preferences and then type in your email, the site will convert the file for you ad send the conversion to your email. I am still amazed at the quality of the conversions all the time and it saves me time converting a ton of documents in Kurzweil. You should definitely check it out. Cheers, Minh On 11/4/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Hi Hannah, > > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's > accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a > PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There > are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and > Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty successful > with text, tables and graphics are messy. > > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words > with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as > such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that > hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are > others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered > a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a > Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available > for it. > > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere > else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from > journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as > bookshare. > > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good > with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think > there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for > textbook scanning. > > Cindy > > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> Hello list, >> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >> look forward to your responses. >> Best, Hannah chadwick >> University of California, Davis CA >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.c >> om >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail > .com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om From sparklylicious at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 16:16:54 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 08:16:54 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> Cindy, I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? Thank you, Hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hi Hannah, Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and graphics are messy. Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as bookshare. That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook scanning. Cindy On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Hello list, > I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot > of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just > wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of > them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I > look forward to your responses. > Best, Hannah chadwick > University of California, Davis CA > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co > m > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 19:25:10 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 14:25:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Cindy, > I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is > there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? > Thank you, Hannah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Hi Hannah, > > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's accessibility > feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is > under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of > boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I > will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and > graphics are messy. > > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words with > no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such and > so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned in > documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others > such > as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable > accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of > Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. > > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. For > example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and I > could find accessible versions on my library's website. > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as > bookshare. > > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with > math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a > math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook scanning. > > Cindy > > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> Hello list, >> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >> look forward to your responses. >> Best, Hannah chadwick >> University of California, Davis CA >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co >> m >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From sparklylicious at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 23:02:51 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 15:02:51 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files Message-ID: <527827cf.68f2440a.248b.50fc@mx.google.com> Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture because after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to get Jaws to read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. I've been using Robobraille. ----- Original Message ----- From: minh ha wrote: Cindy, I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? Thank you, Hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hi Hannah, Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and graphics are messy. Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as bookshare. That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook scanning. Cindy On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: Hello list, I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I look forward to your responses. Best, Hannah chadwick University of California, Davis CA _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma il.co m -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou s%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 gmail.com -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou s%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 23:12:46 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 16:12:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty good job of preserving formatting. Best, Arielle On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: > What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, > document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the > document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo > ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. > > On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> Cindy, >> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is >> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >> Thank you, Hannah >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >> Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >> >> Hi Hannah, >> >> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's accessibility >> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is >> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of >> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I >> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and >> graphics are messy. >> >> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >> with >> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such >> and >> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned >> in >> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >> >> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others >> such >> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable >> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of >> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. >> >> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >> >> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. >> For >> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and I >> could find accessible versions on my library's website. >> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >> bookshare. >> >> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with >> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a >> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook >> scanning. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Hello list, >>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >>> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >>> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >>> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >>> look forward to your responses. >>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>> University of California, Davis CA >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co >>> m >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Nov 4 23:13:52 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 23:13:52 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <527827cf.68f2440a.248b.50fc@mx.google.com> References: <527827cf.68f2440a.248b.50fc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <79f4dc8fc650461f9ad2b19fcf58b0d4@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> PDF's are a pain! Get this mess! One of my favorite Southern Gospel quartets sent me their newsletter as a PDF, and Jaws read the attachment just fine, but if there's a PDF as a link on a Website, it won't read it! Good grief! What's the deal? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hannah Chadwick [sparklylicious at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:02 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture because after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to get Jaws to read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. I've been using Robobraille. ----- Original Message ----- From: minh ha wrote: Cindy, I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? Thank you, Hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hi Hannah, Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and graphics are messy. Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as bookshare. That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook scanning. Cindy On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: Hello list, I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I look forward to your responses. Best, Hannah chadwick University of California, Davis CA _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma il.co m -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou s%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 gmail.com -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou s%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From shickeytha at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 23:23:12 2013 From: shickeytha at gmail.com (Shickeytha Chandler) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 18:23:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hannah, The others who have responded have some good ideas-actually some that I wasn't aware of and am going to look into for my own use. But have you tried the convenient OCR feature in JAWS? It's not great, but can be helpful sometimes, even with documents that have been scanned as pictures. For pdf docs, it helps to zoom to 100% or more before trying the OCR. Like I said, it doesn't work great, but can be helpful for a quick read-through of the document to help you see if you want to go to the trouble of having more extensive OCR work done by Kurzweil, etc. I am not sure of the key command in JAWS 14, but in JAWS 13, you press insert plus the space bar, then o, then w, and wait for JAWS to say "OCR finished". HTH, Shickeytha On 11/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your > computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the > attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though > won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for > PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll > need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty > good job of preserving formatting. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: >> What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, >> document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the >> document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo >> ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. >> >> On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Cindy, >>> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is >>> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >>> Thank you, Hannah >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >>> >>> Hi Hannah, >>> >>> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>> accessibility >>> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is >>> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of >>> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. >>> I >>> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and >>> graphics are messy. >>> >>> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >>> with >>> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such >>> and >>> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned >>> in >>> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >>> >>> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others >>> such >>> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable >>> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of >>> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. >>> >>> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >>> >>> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. >>> For >>> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and >>> I >>> could find accessible versions on my library's website. >>> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >>> bookshare. >>> >>> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with >>> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a >>> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook >>> scanning. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>> Hello list, >>>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >>>> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >>>> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >>>> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >>>> look forward to your responses. >>>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>>> University of California, Davis CA >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail.com > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Nov 4 23:38:25 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 23:38:25 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Hi Shickeytha! What would the key commands be for Jaws 10, which I still have? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Shickeytha Chandler [shickeytha at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hannah, The others who have responded have some good ideas-actually some that I wasn't aware of and am going to look into for my own use. But have you tried the convenient OCR feature in JAWS? It's not great, but can be helpful sometimes, even with documents that have been scanned as pictures. For pdf docs, it helps to zoom to 100% or more before trying the OCR. Like I said, it doesn't work great, but can be helpful for a quick read-through of the document to help you see if you want to go to the trouble of having more extensive OCR work done by Kurzweil, etc. I am not sure of the key command in JAWS 14, but in JAWS 13, you press insert plus the space bar, then o, then w, and wait for JAWS to say "OCR finished". HTH, Shickeytha On 11/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your > computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the > attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though > won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for > PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll > need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty > good job of preserving formatting. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: >> What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, >> document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the >> document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo >> ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. >> >> On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Cindy, >>> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is >>> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >>> Thank you, Hannah >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >>> >>> Hi Hannah, >>> >>> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>> accessibility >>> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is >>> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of >>> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. >>> I >>> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and >>> graphics are messy. >>> >>> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >>> with >>> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such >>> and >>> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned >>> in >>> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >>> >>> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others >>> such >>> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable >>> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of >>> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. >>> >>> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >>> >>> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. >>> For >>> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and >>> I >>> could find accessible versions on my library's website. >>> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >>> bookshare. >>> >>> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with >>> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a >>> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook >>> scanning. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>> Hello list, >>>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >>>> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >>>> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >>>> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >>>> look forward to your responses. >>>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>>> University of California, Davis CA >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From shickeytha at gmail.com Mon Nov 4 23:42:19 2013 From: shickeytha at gmail.com (Shickeytha Chandler) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 18:42:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Joshua! Actually, if I am not mistaken, I believe the convenient OCR feature was only introduced in either JAWS 12 or JAWS 13. Others can feel free to chime in and correct me if that's not the case. Sorry! Shickeytha On 11/4/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi Shickeytha! > What would the key commands be for Jaws 10, which I still have? > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Shickeytha Chandler > [shickeytha at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Hannah, > > The others who have responded have some good ideas-actually some that > I wasn't aware of and am going to look into for my own use. But have > you tried the convenient OCR feature in JAWS? It's not great, but can > be helpful sometimes, even with documents that have been scanned as > pictures. For pdf docs, it helps to zoom to 100% or more before trying > the OCR. Like I said, it doesn't work great, but can be helpful for a > quick read-through of the document to help you see if you want to go > to the trouble of having more extensive OCR work done by Kurzweil, > etc. I am not sure of the key command in JAWS 14, but in JAWS 13, you > press insert plus the space bar, then o, then w, and wait for JAWS to > say "OCR finished". > > HTH, > > Shickeytha > > On 11/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your >> computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the >> attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though >> won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for >> PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll >> need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty >> good job of preserving formatting. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: >>> What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, >>> document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the >>> document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo >>> ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. >>> >>> On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>> Cindy, >>>> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is >>>> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >>>> Thank you, Hannah >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>>> Bennett >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >>>> >>>> Hi Hannah, >>>> >>>> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>>> accessibility >>>> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is >>>> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of >>>> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. >>>> I >>>> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and >>>> graphics are messy. >>>> >>>> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >>>> with >>>> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such >>>> and >>>> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned >>>> in >>>> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >>>> >>>> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others >>>> such >>>> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable >>>> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of >>>> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. >>>> >>>> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >>>> >>>> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. >>>> For >>>> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and >>>> I >>>> could find accessible versions on my library's website. >>>> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >>>> bookshare. >>>> >>>> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with >>>> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is >>>> a >>>> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook >>>> scanning. >>>> >>>> Cindy >>>> >>>> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>>> Hello list, >>>>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >>>>> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >>>>> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >>>>> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >>>>> look forward to your responses. >>>>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>>>> University of California, Davis CA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Cindy Bennett >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail.com > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Mon Nov 4 23:47:52 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 23:47:52 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> , Message-ID: <019be3b2417840da93184ef2088e87bd@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> This is another reason why I want to switch to the Mac. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Shickeytha Chandler [shickeytha at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hi Joshua! Actually, if I am not mistaken, I believe the convenient OCR feature was only introduced in either JAWS 12 or JAWS 13. Others can feel free to chime in and correct me if that's not the case. Sorry! Shickeytha On 11/4/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi Shickeytha! > What would the key commands be for Jaws 10, which I still have? > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Shickeytha Chandler > [shickeytha at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:23 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Hannah, > > The others who have responded have some good ideas-actually some that > I wasn't aware of and am going to look into for my own use. But have > you tried the convenient OCR feature in JAWS? It's not great, but can > be helpful sometimes, even with documents that have been scanned as > pictures. For pdf docs, it helps to zoom to 100% or more before trying > the OCR. Like I said, it doesn't work great, but can be helpful for a > quick read-through of the document to help you see if you want to go > to the trouble of having more extensive OCR work done by Kurzweil, > etc. I am not sure of the key command in JAWS 14, but in JAWS 13, you > press insert plus the space bar, then o, then w, and wait for JAWS to > say "OCR finished". > > HTH, > > Shickeytha > > On 11/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your >> computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the >> attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though >> won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for >> PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll >> need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty >> good job of preserving formatting. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: >>> What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, >>> document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the >>> document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo >>> ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. >>> >>> On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>> Cindy, >>>> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is >>>> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >>>> Thank you, Hannah >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>>> Bennett >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >>>> >>>> Hi Hannah, >>>> >>>> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>>> accessibility >>>> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is >>>> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of >>>> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. >>>> I >>>> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and >>>> graphics are messy. >>>> >>>> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >>>> with >>>> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such >>>> and >>>> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned >>>> in >>>> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >>>> >>>> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others >>>> such >>>> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable >>>> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of >>>> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. >>>> >>>> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >>>> >>>> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. >>>> For >>>> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and >>>> I >>>> could find accessible versions on my library's website. >>>> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >>>> bookshare. >>>> >>>> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with >>>> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is >>>> a >>>> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook >>>> scanning. >>>> >>>> Cindy >>>> >>>> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>>> Hello list, >>>>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >>>>> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >>>>> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >>>>> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >>>>> look forward to your responses. >>>>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>>>> University of California, Davis CA >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co >>>>> m >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Cindy Bennett >>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>> >>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c >>>> om >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From hope.paulos at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 00:39:20 2013 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 19:39:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <527827cf.68f2440a.248b.50fc@mx.google.com> References: <527827cf.68f2440a.248b.50fc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <968F532F-DDC8-4169-A9E6-625E2B61B3A6@gmail.com> Can you try reading document with convenient OCR? Hope Paulos > On Nov 4, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > > Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture because after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to get Jaws to read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. I've been using Robobraille. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 14:25:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, > document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the > document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo > ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. > > On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Cindy, > I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is > there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? > Thank you, Hannah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Hi Hannah, > > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's accessibility > feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is > under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of > boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I > will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and > graphics are messy. > > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words with > no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such and > so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned in > documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others > such > as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable > accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of > Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. > > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. For > example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and I > could find accessible versions on my library's website. > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as > bookshare. > > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with > math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a > math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook scanning. > > Cindy > > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Hello list, > I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot > of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just > wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of > them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I > look forward to your responses. > Best, Hannah chadwick > University of California, Davis CA > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma > il.co > m > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > s%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 > gmail.com > > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > s%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 5 01:09:37 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 20:09:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com><00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <0A40F7C0F6FC4ACAB06BD5445E5D8E6F@OwnerPC> Joshua, jaws 10 does not have OCR. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 6:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hi Shickeytha! What would the key commands be for Jaws 10, which I still have? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Shickeytha Chandler [shickeytha at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hannah, The others who have responded have some good ideas-actually some that I wasn't aware of and am going to look into for my own use. But have you tried the convenient OCR feature in JAWS? It's not great, but can be helpful sometimes, even with documents that have been scanned as pictures. For pdf docs, it helps to zoom to 100% or more before trying the OCR. Like I said, it doesn't work great, but can be helpful for a quick read-through of the document to help you see if you want to go to the trouble of having more extensive OCR work done by Kurzweil, etc. I am not sure of the key command in JAWS 14, but in JAWS 13, you press insert plus the space bar, then o, then w, and wait for JAWS to say "OCR finished". HTH, Shickeytha On 11/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your > computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the > attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though > won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for > PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll > need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty > good job of preserving formatting. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: >> What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, >> document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the >> document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo >> ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. >> >> On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Cindy, >>> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is >>> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >>> Thank you, Hannah >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >>> >>> Hi Hannah, >>> >>> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>> accessibility >>> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is >>> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of >>> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. >>> I >>> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and >>> graphics are messy. >>> >>> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >>> with >>> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such >>> and >>> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned >>> in >>> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >>> >>> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others >>> such >>> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable >>> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of >>> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. >>> >>> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >>> >>> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. >>> For >>> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and >>> I >>> could find accessible versions on my library's website. >>> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >>> bookshare. >>> >>> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with >>> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a >>> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook >>> scanning. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>> Hello list, >>>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >>>> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >>>> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >>>> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >>>> look forward to your responses. >>>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>>> University of California, Davis CA >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Nov 5 01:12:02 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 01:12:02 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <0A40F7C0F6FC4ACAB06BD5445E5D8E6F@OwnerPC> References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com><00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com>, , <0A40F7C0F6FC4ACAB06BD5445E5D8E6F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I didn't know that. I lost the manual somewhere. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 7:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Joshua, jaws 10 does not have OCR. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 6:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hi Shickeytha! What would the key commands be for Jaws 10, which I still have? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Shickeytha Chandler [shickeytha at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hannah, The others who have responded have some good ideas-actually some that I wasn't aware of and am going to look into for my own use. But have you tried the convenient OCR feature in JAWS? It's not great, but can be helpful sometimes, even with documents that have been scanned as pictures. For pdf docs, it helps to zoom to 100% or more before trying the OCR. Like I said, it doesn't work great, but can be helpful for a quick read-through of the document to help you see if you want to go to the trouble of having more extensive OCR work done by Kurzweil, etc. I am not sure of the key command in JAWS 14, but in JAWS 13, you press insert plus the space bar, then o, then w, and wait for JAWS to say "OCR finished". HTH, Shickeytha On 11/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your > computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the > attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though > won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for > PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll > need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty > good job of preserving formatting. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: >> What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, >> document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the >> document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo >> ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. >> >> On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Cindy, >>> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is >>> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >>> Thank you, Hannah >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >>> >>> Hi Hannah, >>> >>> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>> accessibility >>> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is >>> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of >>> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. >>> I >>> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and >>> graphics are messy. >>> >>> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >>> with >>> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such >>> and >>> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned >>> in >>> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. >>> >>> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others >>> such >>> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable >>> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of >>> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. >>> >>> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >>> >>> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. >>> For >>> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and >>> I >>> could find accessible versions on my library's website. >>> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >>> bookshare. >>> >>> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with >>> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a >>> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook >>> scanning. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>> Hello list, >>>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot >>>> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just >>>> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of >>>> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I >>>> look forward to your responses. >>>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>>> University of California, Davis CA >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co >>>> m >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From sparklylicious at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 01:40:05 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 17:40:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00cf01ced9c7$f5d2df40$e1789dc0$@gmail.com> Hi, Thank you for this info. I'll try that. The command in jaws 13 is probably the same or very similar to jaws 14. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Shickeytha Chandler Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 3:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hannah, The others who have responded have some good ideas-actually some that I wasn't aware of and am going to look into for my own use. But have you tried the convenient OCR feature in JAWS? It's not great, but can be helpful sometimes, even with documents that have been scanned as pictures. For pdf docs, it helps to zoom to 100% or more before trying the OCR. Like I said, it doesn't work great, but can be helpful for a quick read-through of the document to help you see if you want to go to the trouble of having more extensive OCR work done by Kurzweil, etc. I am not sure of the key command in JAWS 14, but in JAWS 13, you press insert plus the space bar, then o, then w, and wait for JAWS to say "OCR finished". HTH, Shickeytha On 11/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your > computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the > attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though > won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for > PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll > need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty > good job of preserving formatting. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: >> What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, >> document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the >> document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way >> fo ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. >> >> On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>> Cindy, >>> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. >>> is there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >>> Thank you, Hannah >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>> Bennett >>> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >>> >>> Hi Hannah, >>> >>> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>> accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open >>> a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. >>> There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended >>> settings, and Adobe does an OCR. >>> I >>> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and >>> graphics are messy. >>> >>> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of >>> words with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple >>> columns as such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have >>> found that hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the >>> Adobe OCR. >>> >>> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are >>> others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be >>> considered a reasonable accommodation if your state has something >>> comparable to a Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is >>> typically available for it. >>> >>> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. >>> >>> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. >>> For >>> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals >>> and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. >>> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >>> bookshare. >>> >>> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good >>> with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think >>> there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for >>> textbook scanning. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >>>> Hello list, >>>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a >>>> lot of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was >>>> just wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting >>>> most of them in to word files, however when I do, they become very >>>> messy. I look forward to your responses. >>>> Best, Hannah chadwick >>>> University of California, Davis CA >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail >>>> .co >>>> m >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%4 >>> 0gmail.c >>> om >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gma >>> il.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/shickeytha%40gmail > .com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om From sparklylicious at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 01:41:49 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 17:41:49 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <968F532F-DDC8-4169-A9E6-625E2B61B3A6@gmail.com> References: <527827cf.68f2440a.248b.50fc@mx.google.com> <968F532F-DDC8-4169-A9E6-625E2B61B3A6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <013801ced9c8$32d99550$988cbff0$@gmail.com> Hope, What does that mean? Sorry, but I'm not up to date with all this technology. Haha. Thank you, hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 4:39 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Can you try reading document with convenient OCR? Hope Paulos > On Nov 4, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > > Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture because after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to get Jaws to read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. I've been using Robobraille. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, > document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the > document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo > ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. > > On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Cindy, > I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. > is there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? > Thank you, Hannah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Bennett > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Hi Hannah, > > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's > accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open > a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. > There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, > and Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty > successful with text, tables and graphics are messy. > > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words > with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as > such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that > hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are > others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered > a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a > Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available > for it. > > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere > else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from > journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as > bookshare. > > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good > with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think > there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook scanning. > > Cindy > > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Hello list, > I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot > of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just > wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of > them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I > look forward to your responses. > Best, Hannah chadwick > University of California, Davis CA > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma > il.co > m > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > s%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 > gmail.com > > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the > dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > s%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmai > l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om From jim.hulme at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 01:55:19 2013 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 20:55:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <013801ced9c8$32d99550$988cbff0$@gmail.com> References: <527827cf.68f2440a.248b.50fc@mx.google.com> <968F532F-DDC8-4169-A9E6-625E2B61B3A6@gmail.com> <013801ced9c8$32d99550$988cbff0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Hannah OCR stands for optical character reader or recognition OCR in full *optical character recognition* Scanning and comparison technique intended to identify printed text or numerical data. It avoids the need to retype already printed material for data entry. OCR software attempts to identify characters by comparing shapes to those stored in the software library. The software tries to identify words using character proximity and will try to reconstruct the original page layout. High accuracy can be obtained by using sharp, clear scans of high-quality originals, but it decreases as the quality of the original declines. text)*Optical Character Recognition* - (OCR, sometimes /oh'k*/) Recognition of printed or written characters by computer. Each page of text is converted to a digital using a scannerand OCR is then applied to this image to produce a text file. This involves complex image processing algorithms and rarely achieves 100% accuracy so manual proof reading is recommended. if whenever you do not know what something stands for whether it be an acronym or meaning of a word you can now just use: Free Dict Please also send this message back to Hope Paulos and tell her as well. I am sorry I do not have her email here. Please answer me back to jim.hulme at gmail.com Hope that helps, Jimmy Hulme (New Jersey) jim.hulme at gmail.com On Mon, Nov 4, 2013 at 8:41 PM, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Hope, > What does that mean? Sorry, but I'm not up to date with all this > technology. > Haha. > Thank you, hannah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Hope Paulos > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 4:39 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Can you try reading document with convenient OCR? > > Hope Paulos > > > On Nov 4, 2013, at 6:02 PM, Hannah Chadwick > wrote: > > > > Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture because > after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to get Jaws to read it, > there doesn't seem to be anything there. I've been using Robobraille. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > > > What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, > > document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the > > document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo > > ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. > > > > On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > > Cindy, > > I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. > > is there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? > > Thank you, Hannah > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > > Bennett > > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > > > Hi Hannah, > > > > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's > > accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open > > a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. > > There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, > > and Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is pretty > > successful with text, tables and graphics are messy. > > > > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words > > with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as > > such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that > > hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > > > > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are > > others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered > > a reasonable accommodation if your state has something comparable to a > > Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available > > for it. > > > > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > > > > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere > > else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from > > journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's website. > > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as > > bookshare. > > > > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good > > with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think > > there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for > textbook scanning. > > > > Cindy > > > > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > > Hello list, > > I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot > > of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just > > wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of > > them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I > > look forward to your responses. > > Best, Hannah chadwick > > University of California, Davis CA > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma > > il.co > > m > > > > > > > > -- > > Cindy Bennett > > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > > s%40gmail.c > > om > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 > > gmail.com > > > > > > > > -- > > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the > > dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was > vanity: > > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou > > s%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmai > > l.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From dandrews at visi.com Tue Nov 5 02:42:45 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 20:42:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <79f4dc8fc650461f9ad2b19fcf58b0d4@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.pro d.outlook.com> References: <527827cf.68f2440a.248b.50fc@mx.google.com> <79f4dc8fc650461f9ad2b19fcf58b0d4@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Joshua your statement that JAWS will not read a PDF file that is a link is not correct. Granted, this isn't the best way to read a PDF, but if the PDF contains text it generally works. >However, when you read from a web site your computer uses an add-on >to your borwser to read the PDF. Many of us have found that this >method isn't quite as reliable or stable as reading a file with the >full acrobat reader from your PC;. However it does work most of the time. Dave >At 05:13 PM 11/4/2013, you wrote: >PDF's are a pain! >Get this mess! >One of my favorite Southern Gospel quartets sent me their newsletter >as a PDF, and Jaws read the attachment just fine, but if there's a >PDF as a link on a Website, it won't read it! >Good grief! >What's the deal? >Thanks, Joshua >________________________________________ >From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hannah >Chadwick [sparklylicious at gmail.com] >Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:02 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture >because after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to >get Jaws to read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. >I've been using Robobraille. > > ----- Original Message ----- >From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Date sent: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 14:25:10 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say >"alert, >document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, >the >document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no >way fo >ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert >them. > >On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Cindy, > I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't >read it. is > there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? > Thank you, Hannah > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >Cindy Bennett > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Hi Hannah, > > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >accessibility > feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, >but it is > under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a >series of > boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does >an OCR. I > will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables >and > graphics are messy. > > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of >words with > no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns >as such and > so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand >scanned in > documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There >are others > such > as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a >reasonable > accommodation if your state has something comparable to a >Division of > Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for >it. > > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file >somewhere else. For > example, professors would sometimes give out readings from >journals and I > could find accessible versions on my library's website. > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites >such as > bookshare. > > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are >good with > math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think >there is a > math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for >textbook scanning. > > Cindy > > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Hello list, > I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that >a lot > of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was >just > wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting >most of > them in to word files, however when I do, they become very >messy. I > look forward to your responses. > Best, Hannah chadwick > University of California, Davis CA > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma >il.co > m > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >s%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 >gmail.com > > > >-- >"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >dusty >recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >vanity: >but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act >on >their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >Lawrence From dandrews at visi.com Tue Nov 5 02:44:25 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 20:44:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <00ba01ced91a$2e721a90$8b564fb0$@gmail.com> <00b301ced979$4807e430$d817ac90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't believe convenient OCR was in JAWS that far back. I think it came in around version 12. Dave At 05:38 PM 11/4/2013, you wrote: >Hi Shickeytha! >What would the key commands be for Jaws 10, which I still have? >Thanks, Joshua >________________________________________ >From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Shickeytha >Chandler [shickeytha at gmail.com] >Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:23 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >Hannah, > >The others who have responded have some good ideas-actually some that >I wasn't aware of and am going to look into for my own use. But have >you tried the convenient OCR feature in JAWS? It's not great, but can >be helpful sometimes, even with documents that have been scanned as >pictures. For pdf docs, it helps to zoom to 100% or more before trying >the OCR. Like I said, it doesn't work great, but can be helpful for a >quick read-through of the document to help you see if you want to go >to the trouble of having more extensive OCR work done by Kurzweil, >etc. I am not sure of the key command in JAWS 14, but in JAWS 13, you >press insert plus the space bar, then o, then w, and wait for JAWS to >say "OCR finished". > >HTH, > >Shickeytha > >On 11/4/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Don't forget that if you use Gmail, you can save the PDF to your > > computer, email it to yourself as an attachment and then open the > > attached file in HTML. It will make navigation much easier though > > won't fix all the column formatting problems. And this only works for > > PDF's that haven't been scanned. If it's been scanned, then you'll > > need to use OCR of some sort to convert it. RoboBraille does a pretty > > good job of preserving formatting. > > > > Best, > > Arielle > > > > On 11/4/13, minh ha wrote: > >> What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, > >> document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the > >> document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo > >> ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. > >> > >> On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > >>> Cindy, > >>> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. is > >>> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? > >>> Thank you, Hannah > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > >>> Bennett > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >>> > >>> Hi Hannah, > >>> > >>> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's > >>> accessibility > >>> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, but it is > >>> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a series of > >>> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does an OCR. > >>> I > >>> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables and > >>> graphics are messy. > >>> > >>> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words > >>> with > >>> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns as such > >>> and > >>> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand scanned > >>> in > >>> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > >>> > >>> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are others > >>> such > >>> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a reasonable > >>> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a Division of > >>> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for it. > >>> > >>> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > >>> > >>> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere else. > >>> For > >>> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from journals and > >>> I > >>> could find accessible versions on my library's website. > >>> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as > >>> bookshare. > >>> > >>> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good with > >>> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think there is a > >>> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for textbook > >>> scanning. > >>> > >>> Cindy > >>> > >>> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > >>>> Hello list, > >>>> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a lot > >>>> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was just > >>>> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting most of > >>>> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very messy. I > >>>> look forward to your responses. > >>>> Best, Hannah chadwick > >>>> University of California, Davis CA > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co > >>>> m > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Cindy Bennett > >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > >>> > >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > >>> clb5590 at gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c > >>> om > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From steve.jacobson at visi.com Tue Nov 5 03:03:02 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2013 21:03:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: <79f4dc8fc650461f9ad2b19fcf58b0d4@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Joshua, There is a setting within Adobe Acrobat that determines if a PDF link is opened within the web browser or whether it is opened in a new window. If you set that option to open in a new window, you will have better results. Open Adobe Reader, bring up Preferences with CONTROL-K, use the arrow keys to navigate to the Internet entry, Then tab to the "display within Browser" checkbox and uncheck it, and perhaps tab to the next box that allows fast view from browser and uncheck that, too. Then tab to OK. You should have better luck after doing this. The exact location and label of these checkboxes may vary with the version of Acrobat Reader that you have installed. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 23:13:52 +0000, Joshua Lester wrote: >PDF's are a pain! >Get this mess! >One of my favorite Southern Gospel quartets sent me their newsletter as a PDF, and Jaws read the attachment just fine, but if there's a PDF as a link on a Website, it won't read it! >Good grief! >What's the deal? >Thanks, Joshua >________________________________________ >From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hannah Chadwick [sparklylicious at gmail.com] >Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:02 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture >because after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to >get Jaws to read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. >I've been using Robobraille. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Date sent: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 14:25:10 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say >"alert, >document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, >the >document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no >way fo >ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert >them. >On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Cindy, > I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't >read it. is > there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? > Thank you, Hannah > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >Cindy Bennett > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > Hi Hannah, > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >accessibility > feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, >but it is > under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a >series of > boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does >an OCR. I > will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables >and > graphics are messy. > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of >words with > no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns >as such and > so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand >scanned in > documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There >are others > such > as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a >reasonable > accommodation if your state has something comparable to a >Division of > Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for >it. > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file >somewhere else. For > example, professors would sometimes give out readings from >journals and I > could find accessible versions on my library's website. > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites >such as > bookshare. > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are >good with > math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think >there is a > math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for >textbook scanning. > Cindy > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Hello list, > I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that >a lot > of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was >just > wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting >most of > them in to word files, however when I do, they become very >messy. I > look forward to your responses. > Best, Hannah chadwick > University of California, Davis CA > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma >il.co > m > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >s%40gmail.c > om > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 >gmail.com >-- >"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >dusty >recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >vanity: >but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act >on >their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >Lawrence >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >s%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Nov 5 03:39:42 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 03:39:42 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <79f4dc8fc650461f9ad2b19fcf58b0d4@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>, Message-ID: Thanks! Now, if only Jaws 13 would work correctly with the stuff I have to deal with in my online class, that would be awesome! That's a conversation for another thread! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Steve Jacobson [steve.jacobson at visi.com] Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 9:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Joshua, There is a setting within Adobe Acrobat that determines if a PDF link is opened within the web browser or whether it is opened in a new window. If you set that option to open in a new window, you will have better results. Open Adobe Reader, bring up Preferences with CONTROL-K, use the arrow keys to navigate to the Internet entry, Then tab to the "display within Browser" checkbox and uncheck it, and perhaps tab to the next box that allows fast view from browser and uncheck that, too. Then tab to OK. You should have better luck after doing this. The exact location and label of these checkboxes may vary with the version of Acrobat Reader that you have installed. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 23:13:52 +0000, Joshua Lester wrote: >PDF's are a pain! >Get this mess! >One of my favorite Southern Gospel quartets sent me their newsletter as a PDF, and Jaws read the attachment just fine, but if there's a PDF as a link on a Website, it won't read it! >Good grief! >What's the deal? >Thanks, Joshua >________________________________________ >From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hannah Chadwick [sparklylicious at gmail.com] >Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:02 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture >because after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to >get Jaws to read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. >I've been using Robobraille. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Date sent: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 14:25:10 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files >What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say >"alert, >document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, >the >document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no >way fo >ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert >them. >On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Cindy, > I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't >read it. is > there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? > Thank you, Hannah > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >Cindy Bennett > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > Hi Hannah, > Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >accessibility > feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, >but it is > under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a >series of > boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does >an OCR. I > will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables >and > graphics are messy. > Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of >words with > no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns >as such and > so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand >scanned in > documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There >are others > such > as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a >reasonable > accommodation if your state has something comparable to a >Division of > Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for >it. > I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > One workaround would be to see if you can find the file >somewhere else. For > example, professors would sometimes give out readings from >journals and I > could find accessible versions on my library's website. > If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites >such as > bookshare. > That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are >good with > math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think >there is a > math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for >textbook scanning. > Cindy > On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: > Hello list, > I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that >a lot > of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was >just > wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting >most of > them in to word files, however when I do, they become very >messy. I > look forward to your responses. > Best, Hannah chadwick > University of California, Davis CA > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma >il.co > m > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >s%40gmail.c > om > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >info for > nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 >gmail.com >-- >"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >dusty >recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >vanity: >but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act >on >their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >Lawrence >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >s%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From kaybaycar at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 05:13:27 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 23:13:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <79f4dc8fc650461f9ad2b19fcf58b0d4@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Hannah, I don't know if this is an option for you, but do you have assistive tech people at your university? Are there people who scan your books for you or deal with other alternative formatting or assistive technology issues? I do not have scanning software, so when I do a research project and collect printed books or inaccessible PDFs, I send them to our adaptive computing department. I get them back days later in the format of my choice. It saves me a lot of time and frustration. Plus, they clean the documents up better than I ever could on my own. On 11/4/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Thanks! > Now, if only Jaws 13 would work correctly with the stuff I have to deal with > in my online class, that would be awesome! > That's a conversation for another thread! > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Steve Jacobson > [steve.jacobson at visi.com] > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 9:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Joshua, > > There is a setting within Adobe Acrobat that determines if a PDF link is > opened within the web browser or whether it is opened in a new window. If > you > set that option to open in a new window, you will have better results. Open > Adobe Reader, bring up Preferences with CONTROL-K, use the arrow keys to > navigate to the Internet entry, Then tab to the "display within Browser" > checkbox and uncheck it, and perhaps tab to the next box that allows fast > view > from browser and uncheck that, too. Then tab to OK. You should have better > luck after doing this. The exact location and label of these checkboxes > may vary with the version of Acrobat Reader that you have installed. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 23:13:52 +0000, Joshua Lester wrote: > >>PDF's are a pain! >>Get this mess! >>One of my favorite Southern Gospel quartets sent me their newsletter as a >> PDF, and Jaws read the attachment just fine, but if there's a PDF as a >> link on > a Website, it won't read it! >>Good grief! >>What's the deal? >>Thanks, Joshua >>________________________________________ >>From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hannah Chadwick >> [sparklylicious at gmail.com] >>Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:02 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >>Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture >>because after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to >>get Jaws to read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. >>I've been using Robobraille. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: minh ha >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Date sent: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 14:25:10 -0500 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >>What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say >>"alert, >>document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, >>the >>document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no >>way fo >>ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert >>them. > >>On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> Cindy, >> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't >>read it. is >> there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >> Thank you, Hannah > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>Cindy Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >> Hi Hannah, > >> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>accessibility >> feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open a PDF, >>but it is >> under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. There are a >>series of >> boxes, but I just keep the recommended settings, and Adobe does >>an OCR. I >> will say that although it is pretty successful with text, tables >>and >> graphics are messy. > >> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of >>words with >> no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns >>as such and >> so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found that hand >>scanned in >> documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > >> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There >>are others >> such >> as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be considered a >>reasonable >> accommodation if your state has something comparable to a >>Division of >> Services for the Blind, so funding is typically available for >>it. > >> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > >> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file >>somewhere else. For >> example, professors would sometimes give out readings from >>journals and I >> could find accessible versions on my library's website. >> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites >>such as >> bookshare. > >> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are >>good with >> math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think >>there is a >> math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for >>textbook scanning. > >> Cindy > >> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> Hello list, >> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that >>a lot >> of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was >>just >> wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting >>most of >> them in to word files, however when I do, they become very >>messy. I >> look forward to your responses. >> Best, Hannah chadwick >> University of California, Davis CA > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma >>il.co >> m > > > >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >>s%40gmail.c >> om > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>info for >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 >>gmail.com > > > >>-- >>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >>dusty >>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >>vanity: >>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act >>on >>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >>Lawrence > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >>s%40gmail.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From sparklylicious at gmail.com Tue Nov 5 05:17:05 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 21:17:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] PDF Files In-Reply-To: References: <79f4dc8fc650461f9ad2b19fcf58b0d4@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <000001ced9e6$47175520$d545ff60$@gmail.com> Julie, Yes, I have it here as well. It's kind of a last minute thing though so I can't do that for this paper. However, I'm thinking I might do that in the future as well as check out some of the other options people have mentioned. Thanks, Hannah -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie McGinnity Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 9:13 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files Hi Hannah, I don't know if this is an option for you, but do you have assistive tech people at your university? Are there people who scan your books for you or deal with other alternative formatting or assistive technology issues? I do not have scanning software, so when I do a research project and collect printed books or inaccessible PDFs, I send them to our adaptive computing department. I get them back days later in the format of my choice. It saves me a lot of time and frustration. Plus, they clean the documents up better than I ever could on my own. On 11/4/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Thanks! > Now, if only Jaws 13 would work correctly with the stuff I have to > deal with in my online class, that would be awesome! > That's a conversation for another thread! > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Steve Jacobson > [steve.jacobson at visi.com] > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 9:03 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > > Joshua, > > There is a setting within Adobe Acrobat that determines if a PDF link > is opened within the web browser or whether it is opened in a new > window. If you set that option to open in a new window, you will have > better results. Open Adobe Reader, bring up Preferences with > CONTROL-K, use the arrow keys to navigate to the Internet entry, Then > tab to the "display within Browser" > checkbox and uncheck it, and perhaps tab to the next box that allows > fast view from browser and uncheck that, too. Then tab to OK. You > should have better luck after doing this. The exact location and > label of these checkboxes may vary with the version of Acrobat Reader > that you have installed. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Mon, 4 Nov 2013 23:13:52 +0000, Joshua Lester wrote: > >>PDF's are a pain! >>Get this mess! >>One of my favorite Southern Gospel quartets sent me their newsletter >>as a PDF, and Jaws read the attachment just fine, but if there's a >>PDF as a link on > a Website, it won't read it! >>Good grief! >>What's the deal? >>Thanks, Joshua >>________________________________________ >>From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Hannah Chadwick >>[sparklylicious at gmail.com] >>Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:02 PM >>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >>Adobe processes the files, but I think it's probably a picture because >>after it is processed, nothing happens. When I try to get Jaws to >>read it, there doesn't seem to be anything there. >>I've been using Robobraille. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: minh ha >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >>What do you mean adobi doesn't read the file? Does jaws say "alert, >>document is empty" or something along those lines? If it does, the >>document has been scanned in as a picture and there's really no way fo >>ryou to read it except use Kurzweil or robobraille to convert them. > >>On 11/4/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> Cindy, >> I've tried adobe. However, when I open the file, Jaws won't read it. >>is there something I can purchase to make it more accessible? >> Thank you, Hannah > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy >>Bennett >> Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2013 10:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] PDF Files > >> Hi Hannah, > >> Most of the PDF's that I use are accessible through Adobe's >>accessibility feature. For me, it comes up automatically when I open >>a PDF, but it is under the accessibility tab under the edit menu. >>There are a series of boxes, but I just keep the recommended >>settings, and Adobe does an OCR. I will say that although it is >>pretty successful with text, tables and graphics are messy. > >> Most commonly, I have a problem with Adobe combining strings of words >>with no spaces or not interpreting a page that has multiple columns >>as such and so I hear paragraphs out of order. Also, I have found >>that hand scanned in documents cannot be read well by the Adobe OCR. > >> In this case, I use Kerzweil which is an OCR software. There are >>others such as ABBYY Fine Reader. A good OCR option can be >>considered a reasonable accommodation if your state has something >>comparable to a Division of Services for the Blind, so funding is >>typically available for it. > >> I do not know how to use the OCR function of JAWS 14. > >> One workaround would be to see if you can find the file somewhere >>else. For example, professors would sometimes give out readings from >>journals and I could find accessible versions on my library's >>website. >> If they are excerpts from novels, you could look on websites such as >>bookshare. > >> That being said, I am not well versed at OCR options that are good >>with math, foreign languages, or any subject with symbols. I think >>there is a math solution called Infinty Reader, but this may be for >>textbook scanning. > >> Cindy > >> On 11/3/13, Hannah Chadwick wrote: >> Hello list, >> I'm currently using Jaws 14 with my windows 7 pc. It seems that a >>lot of documents, especially academic ones are in pdf files. I was >>just wondering how you read these file types? I've been converting >>most of them in to word files, however when I do, they become very >>messy. I look forward to your responses. >> Best, Hannah chadwick >> University of California, Davis CA > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gma >>il.co >> m > > > >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >>s%40gmail.c >> om > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40 >>gmail.com > > > >>-- >>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >>dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >>vanity: >>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >>Lawrence > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyliciou >>s%40gmail.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>aedu.onmicrosoft.com > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v >>isi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail. > com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om From agrima at nbp.org Tue Nov 5 14:27:42 2013 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 09:27:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} The Gift of Nothing: "Pure Delight..." - Publishers Weekly Message-ID: <003501ceda33$32079cb0$9616d610$@org> NBP logo November's Print/Braille Book of the Month! _____ November 2013 Book Club Selection The Gift of Nothing by Patrick McDonnell Print/braille children's book, $14.99 In contracted braille Ages 3 to 8 - but with a message for all ages! This is a simple and beautiful book about the true meaning of friendship. It's a special day, so Mooch the cat wants to give Earl the dog a gift. But Earl already has a bowl, a bed, and even a chew toy - in fact, he has it ALL! In a flash of inspiration, Mooch decides to give him nothing - but where does one find nothing? He tries the stores, but alas, "nothing was not for sale." In the end, Mooch wraps a big box with nothing in it and presents it to his friend. "There's nothing here," says Earl. "Nothing... but me and you," Mooch replies. Pure delight. - Publishers Weekly starred review Spare, lovely, moving as a classic fable. - Martha G., Amazon A New York Times Bestseller To order, visit: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/BC1311-GIFT.html And don't miss our 2013 Holiday Sale! See all of our Book Club Selections ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html. Forward to a friend National Braille Press logo Copyright © 2013 National Braille Press, All rights reserved. National Braille Press 88 Saint Stephen St Boston, MA 02115 Add us to your address book www.nbp.org Connect with us! Facebook logo Twitter logo Linkedin logo YouTube logo Email Marketing Powered by MailChimp set email preferences (HTML vs. Plain Text) unsubscribe from this list From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 00:14:19 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 19:14:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} Fwd: New Scholarship Awards; Share Your Success References: <1115427321677.1101553811939.166919.6.67173544@scheduler.constantcontact.com> Message-ID: <7818338873536065812@unknownmsgid> Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: *From:* Learning Ally *Date:* November 5, 2013 at 5:38:18 PM EST *To:* dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com *Subject:* *New Scholarship Awards; Share Your Success* *Reply-To:* enews at learningally.org Having trouble viewing this email? Click here to view this email as a webpage. You're receiving this email because of your relationship with Learning Ally. Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. You only have to do this once. You may unsubscribeif you no longer wish to receive our emails. [image: Learning Ally - The Download] * Taking "The Big Picture" Dyslexia Documentary On the Road * [image: Partners in the Dyslexia Movie Roadshow] "The Big Picture: Rethinking Dyslexia" Roadshow gave a powerful boost to National Dyslexia Awareness Month as Learning Ally and partners presented the documentary in nine cities. View the Roadshow photo albumand learn about the students, parents and educators who attended. The tourconcludes in New Orleans at the IDA Conferenceon November 9th. Read more about the film and roadshow. * You Can Help Another Family Find Success * [image: galaxy tablets] Win a Samsung Galaxy tablet by helping another child and family gain access to Learning Ally's vital services through our Refer a Parentprogram. Contest rules: One entry for each referral; enter by November 15, 2013. Winners will be contacted and announced on November 22. You MUST be a current Learning Ally member to win. Thank you for helping another family find success! * A Dyslexia Story: The First Eleven Years * * [image: Noah playing chess] *"This is our dyslexia story - Noah and me, and of course his dad and his sisters too. I am dyslexic, my brother is dyslexic, and my first cousin is dyslexic; there may be more. But this story is about my journey with my son through his 11 years as a dyslexic." Read more from mom, Kristin Kane. * Parent Support Services * * [image: parent with child] How do I choose the best reading programs for my child? How do I collaborate with teachers to monitor progress so my child can succeed?* Get questions like these answered when you call our parent support specialists. Call us at 800-635-1403 or schedule an appointment now . We're here to help you help your struggling reader. * IDA's Standards for Teachers of Reading * [image: International Dyslexia Association Logo]Most students with learning disabilities attend public schools and spend 80% of their time in general education classes. The International Dyslexia Association has created *Knowledge and Practice Standards for Teachers of Reading* to help all teachers become well-trained in appropriate instruction for all learners. Read more and make sure your public school knows about these standards. And, tell your teachers about Learning Ally professional development workshops . Please encourage your friends to support Learning Ally. Learn more about volunteering or make a donation today . Sincerely, *Your Friends* at Learning Ally *Quick Links* Member Login Donate| Get Help *Apply Now for the 55th National Achievement Awards * [image: NAA winners] Each year, Learning Ally awards college seniors and graduate students who are blind or learn differently and role models of success and inspiration to students across the country. Top winners receive a $6,000 award - apply by March 1, 2014 . Tasting in the Dark [image: blind wine tasting] Henry "Hoby" Wedler, a blind graduate student at the University of California, hosted a blind wine tastingfor Learning Ally supporters in Princeton. For those in California, the next event is Nov. 16 - read the invitation . *Did You Know? * [image: Learning Ally Audio App on iPhone graphic] *Audio app:* Apple's iOS7 is here and we've updated our app - look for the update on your device. You'll see some new titles with our sentence-level *VOICEtext*synchronization. *Myths About Dyslexia Free Public Webinar* [image: Susan Barton] Register now for November 12to hear from leading expert Susan Barton. *Stay Connected * *Contact Us | e-Newsletter * *Blog | Volunteer * [image: Like us on Facebook] [image: Follow us on Twitter] [image: View our videos on YouTube] [image: View our profile on LinkedIn] [image: tumblr] [image: Find us on Pinterest] *Questions or Comments? *Email us: eNews at LearningAlly.org [image: A national nonprofit since 1948 - LearningAlly.org] ©2013 Learning Ally, Inc. All rights reserved. Learning AllyTM, Making reading accessible for allTM, the "Access" icon, Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic®, RFB&D®, the "Heart and Headphones" design and all trademarks and service marks are owned by Learning Ally, Inc. Forward this email This email was sent to dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com by enews at learningally.org | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe™ | Privacy Policy . Learning Ally | 20 Roszel Road | Princeton | NJ | 08540 From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 01:31:07 2013 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 20:31:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Important Message Regarding Google Apps and Accessibility In-Reply-To: <18c9c7a260ce4cb3811276a8e4f1f5cf@BN1PR07MB312.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <29E2083D8849FE43BF6A456890490A0C0D8F8027@BALT-X1-EXCH2K8.BGL.root> <220aea02dfe3406ca7417074a24c3c24@BN1PR07MB424.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> <18c9c7a260ce4cb3811276a8e4f1f5cf@BN1PR07MB312.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <015501ceda8f$de3bc2c0$9ab34840$@gmail.com> Friends and fellow students: We have a wonderful opportunity to use our status as students to help further the work of the NFB. Dr. Maurer called me yesterday afternoon and advised me that we are in continued conversations with Google regarding the accessibility of Google Apps, which are frequently used by schools and universities. Unfortunately, Google Apps has many features that are inaccessible. We need to change this, and this effort is building momentum. The Provost of the University of Michigan has recently circulated the two below communications to faculty and students at U of M. As you can read after this message, Michigan will not be requiring, and is in fact discouraging, the use of Google Apps for coursework, class projects, or communication between students until Google Apps are accessible and fully useable by disabled students, including the blind. This is a strong message, but we need to increase the pressure on Google. They need to hear this message from other colleges and universities, and they need to hear it now. Does your school use Google Apps or are they considering it? Show your administration the principled and courageous stand that the University of Michigan has taken, and urge them to do the same. Educate your school's administration as to how Google Apps leaves blind students out, detracts from our full participation in the classroom, and degrades our educational experience. I personally have run across inaccessible Google products here at HKS, and will certainly be sharing the below message with my Dean. I urge each of you to do the same. This is one of those instances where we as students can step up to really make a difference for all blind students and shape the future. Please take a few minutes to communicate the importance of accessibility of all aspects of education and show your school that it is possible to take a stand. Technology can either open doors for the blind, or seal them shut. I know which I prefer. So, please, take a moment and help show Google that accessibility matters by getting your school to communicate their commitment to accessibility. Please call or write if you have any questions. And, please share this with anybody committed to equal access in education for the blind. Many thanks, Sean Whalen President, National Association of Blind Students (608) 332-4147 --------- Dear Colleagues, As you know, the University of Michigan has transitioned to Google Apps for Education for email, calendar, and collaboration tools. The university has been in regular contact with Google over the past year about the accessibility of their products, and we have conducted numerous tests to measure their progress. While Google has demonstrated definite improvements, much work remains to make the experience acceptable and equitable for individuals who have disabilities. Because Google Docs and Drive, Chat, Sites, and other collaborative technologies in the Google suite do not work well with standard assistive technologies, you should not require students to use them in coursework. In other words, you should not assign work where the only option to complete the work involves use of these tools, and even if their use is optional, you should be extremely sensitive and avoid situations in which students who have disabilities may be disadvantaged if the Google suite is the preferred alternative. I am also writing to our students to ask them to be cautious in their informal use of this suite of applications, avoiding them whenever their use may disadvantage students who have disabilities. Google email and calendar are accessible with standard assistive technologies when used with the client interface for Outlook or MacMail. Students, faculty, or staff may call 4-HELP for assistance in setting up the client interface or they may visit the Knox Center Adaptive Technology Computing Site on the first floor of the Shapiro Library. Generally, if you need assistance in making your courses or technology accessible to students who have disabilities, don't hesitate to work with the Knox Center or the Services for Students with Disabilities. We will continue to work with Google to address the accessibility issues in their software systems, and we expect that changes will be made so that they meet the needs of all our students. The university is committed to equal opportunity and equal access, and we are continually working harder to find ways to make the tools we use, facilities we access, and methods we apply accessible to our entire community. Please visit the sites below to learn more about how to support our community members with disabilities: --Services for Students with Disabilities handbook for faculty (http://ssd.umich.edu/files/ssd/SSD_Faculty_Handbook.pdf) --Knox Center Adaptive Technology Computing Site (http://www.itcs.umich.edu/atcs/computing-site.php) --M+Google site (https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu/going-google/accessibility) Thank you for your attention to this important matter. Sincerely, Martha E. Pollack Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs Dear Students, As you know, the University of Michigan has transitioned to Google Apps for Education for email, calendar, and collaboration tools. The university has been in regular contact with Google over the past year about the accessibility of their products, and we have conducted numerous tests to measure their progress. While Google has demonstrated definite improvements, much work remains to make the experience acceptable and equitable for individuals who have disabilities. Because Google Docs and Drive, Chat, Sites, and other collaborative technologies in the Google suite do not work well with standard assistive technologies, we have instructed the faculty not to require students to use them in coursework, and to be sensitive and avoid situations in which students who have disabilities may be disadvantaged if the Google suite is the preferred alternative. I am also writing to ask you to be cautious in your informal use of this suite of applications, avoiding them whenever their use may disadvantage students who have disabilities. Google email and calendar are accessible with standard assistive technologies when used with the client interface for Outlook or MacMail. Students, faculty, or staff may call 4-HELP for assistance in setting up the client interface or they may visit the Knox Center Adaptive Technology Computing Site on the first floor of the Shapiro Library. Generally, if you need assistance in making your courses or technology accessible to students who have disabilities, don't hesitate to work with the Knox Center or the Services for Students with Disabilities. We will continue to work with Google to address the accessibility issues in their software systems, and we expect that changes will be made so that they meet the needs of all our students. The university is committed to equal opportunity and equal access, and we are continually working harder to find ways to make the tools we use, facilities we access, and methods we apply accessible to our entire community. Please visit the sites below to learn more about how to support our community members with disabilities: --Services for Students with Disabilities handbook for faculty (http://ssd.umich.edu/files/ssd/SSD_Faculty_Handbook.pdf) --Knox Center Adaptive Technology Computing Site (http://www.itcs.umich.edu/atcs/computing-site.php) --M+Google site (https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu/going-google/accessibility) Thank you for your attention to this important matter. Sincerely, Martha E. Pollack Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 12:17:19 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 04:17:19 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Important Message Regarding Google Apps and Accessibility References: <015501ceda8f$de3bc2c0$9ab34840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <932ABD53-B4B2-4846-9655-EF673A69FE20@gmail.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Sean Whalen" > Subject: FW: Important Message Regarding Google Apps and Accessibility > Date: November 5, 2013 at 5:31:07 PM PST > To: , > > Friends and fellow students: > > We have a wonderful opportunity to use our status as students to help > further the work of the NFB. Dr. Maurer called me yesterday afternoon and > advised me that we are in continued conversations with Google regarding the > accessibility of Google Apps, which are frequently used by schools and > universities. Unfortunately, Google Apps has many features that are > inaccessible. We need to change this, and this effort is building momentum. > The Provost of the University of Michigan has recently circulated the two > below communications to faculty and students at U of M. As you can read > after this message, Michigan will not be requiring, and is in fact > discouraging, the use of Google Apps for coursework, class projects, or > communication between students until Google Apps are accessible and fully > useable by disabled students, including the blind. This is a strong message, > but we need to increase the pressure on Google. They need to hear this > message from other colleges and universities, and they need to hear it now. > Does your school use Google Apps or are they considering it? Show your > administration the principled and courageous stand that the University of > Michigan has taken, and urge them to do the same. Educate your school's > administration as to how Google Apps leaves blind students out, detracts > from our full participation in the classroom, and degrades our educational > experience. I personally have run across inaccessible Google products here > at HKS, and will certainly be sharing the below message with my Dean. I urge > each of you to do the same. This is one of those instances where we as > students can step up to really make a difference for all blind students and > shape the future. Please take a few minutes to communicate the importance of > accessibility of all aspects of education and show your school that it is > possible to take a stand. Technology can either open doors for the blind, or > seal them shut. I know which I prefer. So, please, take a moment and help > show Google that accessibility matters by getting your school to communicate > their commitment to accessibility. > > Please call or write if you have any questions. And, please share this with > anybody committed to equal access in education for the blind. > > Many thanks, > > Sean Whalen > President, National Association of Blind Students > (608) 332-4147 > --------- > Dear Colleagues, > > As you know, the University of Michigan has transitioned to Google Apps for > Education for email, calendar, and collaboration tools. The university has > been in regular contact with Google over the past year about the > accessibility of their products, and we have conducted numerous tests to > measure their progress. While Google has demonstrated definite improvements, > much work remains to make the experience acceptable and equitable for > individuals who have disabilities. Because Google Docs and Drive, Chat, > Sites, and other collaborative technologies in the Google suite do not work > well with standard assistive technologies, you should not require students > to use them in coursework. In other words, you should not assign work where > the only option to complete the work involves use of these tools, and even > if their use is optional, you should be extremely sensitive and avoid > situations in which students who have disabilities may be disadvantaged if > the Google suite is the preferred alternative. > > I am also writing to our students to ask them to be cautious in their > informal use of this suite of applications, avoiding them whenever their use > may disadvantage students who have disabilities. > > Google email and calendar are accessible with standard assistive > technologies when used with the client interface for Outlook or MacMail. > Students, faculty, or staff may call 4-HELP for assistance in setting up the > client interface or they may visit the Knox Center Adaptive Technology > Computing Site on the first floor of the Shapiro Library. Generally, if you > need assistance in making your courses or technology accessible to students > who have disabilities, don't hesitate to work with the Knox Center or the > Services for Students with Disabilities. > > We will continue to work with Google to address the accessibility issues in > their software systems, and we expect that changes will be made so that they > meet the needs of all our students. > > The university is committed to equal opportunity and equal access, and we > are continually working harder to find ways to make the tools we use, > facilities we access, and methods we apply accessible to our entire > community. Please visit the sites below to learn more about how to support > our community members with disabilities: > > --Services for Students with Disabilities handbook for faculty > (http://ssd.umich.edu/files/ssd/SSD_Faculty_Handbook.pdf) > --Knox Center Adaptive Technology Computing Site > (http://www.itcs.umich.edu/atcs/computing-site.php) > --M+Google site > (https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu/going-google/accessibility) > > Thank you for your attention to this important matter. > > Sincerely, > > Martha E. Pollack > Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs > > > > > Dear Students, > > As you know, the University of Michigan has transitioned to Google Apps for > Education for email, calendar, and collaboration tools. The university has > been in regular contact with Google over the past year about the > accessibility of their products, and we have conducted numerous tests to > measure their progress. While Google has demonstrated definite improvements, > much work remains to make the experience acceptable and equitable for > individuals who have disabilities. Because Google Docs and Drive, Chat, > Sites, and other collaborative technologies in the Google suite do not work > well with standard assistive technologies, we have instructed the faculty > not to require students to use them in coursework, and to be sensitive and > avoid situations in which students who have disabilities may be > disadvantaged if the Google suite is the preferred alternative. > > I am also writing to ask you to be cautious in your informal use of this > suite of applications, avoiding them whenever their use may disadvantage > students who have disabilities. > > Google email and calendar are accessible with standard assistive > technologies when used with the client interface for Outlook or MacMail. > Students, faculty, or staff may call 4-HELP for assistance in setting up the > client interface or they may visit the Knox Center Adaptive Technology > Computing Site on the first floor of the Shapiro Library. Generally, if you > need assistance in making your courses or technology accessible to students > who have disabilities, don't hesitate to work with the Knox Center or the > Services for Students with Disabilities. > > We will continue to work with Google to address the accessibility issues in > their software systems, and we expect that changes will be made so that they > meet the needs of all our students. > > The university is committed to equal opportunity and equal access, and we > are continually working harder to find ways to make the tools we use, > facilities we access, and methods we apply accessible to our entire > community. Please visit the sites below to learn more about how to support > our community members with disabilities: > > --Services for Students with Disabilities handbook for faculty > (http://ssd.umich.edu/files/ssd/SSD_Faculty_Handbook.pdf) > --Knox Center Adaptive Technology Computing Site > (http://www.itcs.umich.edu/atcs/computing-site.php) > --M+Google site > (https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu/going-google/accessibility) > > Thank you for your attention to this important matter. > > Sincerely, > > > Martha E. Pollack > Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 12:19:57 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 04:19:57 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Employment Mentoring Opportunity for College Students who are Blind References: <000c01ced713$4fa44840$eeecd8c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: "Sean Whalen" > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Employment Mentoring Opportunity for College Students who are Blind > Date: November 1, 2013 at 8:01:57 AM PDT > To: > Reply-To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Check out this one on one mentoring opportunity if you are a student under > 35 years of age (grad students included). Also, if you are a young > professional and would like to serve as a mentor for a blind student, they > are looking for you, too! > > > > From: Jamie O'Mally [mailto:jomally at colled.msstate.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:54 PM > To: nabs.president at gmail.com > Subject: Employment Mentoring Opportunity for College Students who are Blind > > > > Hello Silverman Arielle, > > > > Do you know a college student graduating next year who is legally (or > totally) blind? The National Research and Training Center on Blindness and > Low Vision (NRTC) is pairing students nationwide with mentors who are also > legally blind and working in a similar field of interest. Opportunities > include face-to-face mentoring, job shadowing, and networking. We offer > career preparation resources and student incentives to participate. > Students must be under age 35 and should sign up by December 2013. > Professionals who are blind and interested in serving as mentors are also > encouraged to apply. For more info, visit http://tiny.cc/mentoring-project. > For questions, contact Jamie O'Mally at nrtc2 at colled.msstate.edu, or call > 662-325-2001 or toll free at1-800-675-7782. Please share this information > with anyone you think may be interested! > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Jamie O'Mally, Ph.D. > > Assistant Research Professor > > The National Research and Training Center on Blindness & Low Vision (NRTC) > > Mississippi State University > > P.O. Box 6189 > > Mississippi State, MS 39762 > > 662-325-3151 > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 12:20:07 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 04:20:07 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Apply Now for NASA Summer 2014 Internships: Recruitment Letter for Student Interns with Disabilities and Frequently Asked Questions Attached (Please Distribute Far and Wide!) References: <001901ced713$887c21b0$99746510$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17E058E5-F74F-4DC3-8388-8E5BAF7F3957@gmail.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: "Sean Whalen" > Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Apply Now for NASA Summer 2014 Internships: Recruitment Letter for Student Interns with Disabilities and Frequently Asked Questions Attached (Please Distribute Far and Wide!) > Date: November 1, 2013 at 8:03:32 AM PDT > To: , > Reply-To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Please see the attached for info about summer internship opportunities with > NASA. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Wed Nov 6 13:49:15 2013 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth Mohnke) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 08:49:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Important Message Regarding Google Apps and Accessibility In-Reply-To: <932ABD53-B4B2-4846-9655-EF673A69FE20@gmail.com> References: <015501ceda8f$de3bc2c0$9ab34840$@gmail.com> <932ABD53-B4B2-4846-9655-EF673A69FE20@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you for posting these messages to all of the state student division email lists. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to make sure this information is passed on as widely as possible within the membership of this organization. Elizabeth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Darian Smith" Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 7:17 AM To: "North Carolina Association of blind students" ; "Arizona Association of blind students" ; "Kentucky Association of blind students" ; "Virginia Association of blind students" ; "Maryland Association of blind students" ; "Ohio Association of blind students" ; "West Virginia Association of blind students" ; "New York Association of blind students" ; "New Hampshire Association of blind students" ; "New Jersey Association of blind students" ; "Illinois Association of blind students" ; "Colorado Association of Blind Students" ; "Texas Association of blind students" ; "New Mexico Association of Blind Students" ; "Georgia Association of blind students" ; "Louisiana Association of blind students" ; ; "Massachusetts Association of blind students" ; "Tennessee Association of blind students" ; "Minnesota Association of blind students" ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" ; "List for NABS State Presidents" ; "cabs-talk blind students" ; "Michigan Association of blind students" ; "Wisconsin Association of blind students" ; "Nebraska Association of blind students" ; "Missouri Association of Blind Students" ; "Alabama Association of blind students" ; "Utah Association of blind students" Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Important Message Regarding Google Apps andAccessibility > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "Sean Whalen" >> Subject: FW: Important Message Regarding Google Apps and Accessibility >> Date: November 5, 2013 at 5:31:07 PM PST >> To: , >> >> Friends and fellow students: >> >> We have a wonderful opportunity to use our status as students to help >> further the work of the NFB. Dr. Maurer called me yesterday afternoon and >> advised me that we are in continued conversations with Google regarding >> the >> accessibility of Google Apps, which are frequently used by schools and >> universities. Unfortunately, Google Apps has many features that are >> inaccessible. We need to change this, and this effort is building >> momentum. >> The Provost of the University of Michigan has recently circulated the two >> below communications to faculty and students at U of M. As you can read >> after this message, Michigan will not be requiring, and is in fact >> discouraging, the use of Google Apps for coursework, class projects, or >> communication between students until Google Apps are accessible and fully >> useable by disabled students, including the blind. This is a strong >> message, >> but we need to increase the pressure on Google. They need to hear this >> message from other colleges and universities, and they need to hear it >> now. >> Does your school use Google Apps or are they considering it? Show your >> administration the principled and courageous stand that the University of >> Michigan has taken, and urge them to do the same. Educate your school's >> administration as to how Google Apps leaves blind students out, detracts >> from our full participation in the classroom, and degrades our >> educational >> experience. I personally have run across inaccessible Google products >> here >> at HKS, and will certainly be sharing the below message with my Dean. I >> urge >> each of you to do the same. This is one of those instances where we as >> students can step up to really make a difference for all blind students >> and >> shape the future. Please take a few minutes to communicate the importance >> of >> accessibility of all aspects of education and show your school that it is >> possible to take a stand. Technology can either open doors for the blind, >> or >> seal them shut. I know which I prefer. So, please, take a moment and help >> show Google that accessibility matters by getting your school to >> communicate >> their commitment to accessibility. >> >> Please call or write if you have any questions. And, please share this >> with >> anybody committed to equal access in education for the blind. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Sean Whalen >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> (608) 332-4147 >> --------- >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> As you know, the University of Michigan has transitioned to Google Apps >> for >> Education for email, calendar, and collaboration tools. The university >> has >> been in regular contact with Google over the past year about the >> accessibility of their products, and we have conducted numerous tests to >> measure their progress. While Google has demonstrated definite >> improvements, >> much work remains to make the experience acceptable and equitable for >> individuals who have disabilities. Because Google Docs and Drive, Chat, >> Sites, and other collaborative technologies in the Google suite do not >> work >> well with standard assistive technologies, you should not require >> students >> to use them in coursework. In other words, you should not assign work >> where >> the only option to complete the work involves use of these tools, and >> even >> if their use is optional, you should be extremely sensitive and avoid >> situations in which students who have disabilities may be disadvantaged >> if >> the Google suite is the preferred alternative. >> >> I am also writing to our students to ask them to be cautious in their >> informal use of this suite of applications, avoiding them whenever their >> use >> may disadvantage students who have disabilities. >> >> Google email and calendar are accessible with standard assistive >> technologies when used with the client interface for Outlook or MacMail. >> Students, faculty, or staff may call 4-HELP for assistance in setting up >> the >> client interface or they may visit the Knox Center Adaptive Technology >> Computing Site on the first floor of the Shapiro Library. Generally, if >> you >> need assistance in making your courses or technology accessible to >> students >> who have disabilities, don't hesitate to work with the Knox Center or the >> Services for Students with Disabilities. >> >> We will continue to work with Google to address the accessibility issues >> in >> their software systems, and we expect that changes will be made so that >> they >> meet the needs of all our students. >> >> The university is committed to equal opportunity and equal access, and we >> are continually working harder to find ways to make the tools we use, >> facilities we access, and methods we apply accessible to our entire >> community. Please visit the sites below to learn more about how to >> support >> our community members with disabilities: >> >> --Services for Students with Disabilities handbook for faculty >> (http://ssd.umich.edu/files/ssd/SSD_Faculty_Handbook.pdf) >> --Knox Center Adaptive Technology Computing Site >> (http://www.itcs.umich.edu/atcs/computing-site.php) >> --M+Google site >> (https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu/going-google/accessibility) >> >> Thank you for your attention to this important matter. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Martha E. Pollack >> Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs >> >> >> >> >> Dear Students, >> >> As you know, the University of Michigan has transitioned to Google Apps >> for >> Education for email, calendar, and collaboration tools. The university >> has >> been in regular contact with Google over the past year about the >> accessibility of their products, and we have conducted numerous tests to >> measure their progress. While Google has demonstrated definite >> improvements, >> much work remains to make the experience acceptable and equitable for >> individuals who have disabilities. Because Google Docs and Drive, Chat, >> Sites, and other collaborative technologies in the Google suite do not >> work >> well with standard assistive technologies, we have instructed the faculty >> not to require students to use them in coursework, and to be sensitive >> and >> avoid situations in which students who have disabilities may be >> disadvantaged if the Google suite is the preferred alternative. >> >> I am also writing to ask you to be cautious in your informal use of this >> suite of applications, avoiding them whenever their use may disadvantage >> students who have disabilities. >> >> Google email and calendar are accessible with standard assistive >> technologies when used with the client interface for Outlook or MacMail. >> Students, faculty, or staff may call 4-HELP for assistance in setting up >> the >> client interface or they may visit the Knox Center Adaptive Technology >> Computing Site on the first floor of the Shapiro Library. Generally, if >> you >> need assistance in making your courses or technology accessible to >> students >> who have disabilities, don't hesitate to work with the Knox Center or the >> Services for Students with Disabilities. >> >> We will continue to work with Google to address the accessibility issues >> in >> their software systems, and we expect that changes will be made so that >> they >> meet the needs of all our students. >> >> The university is committed to equal opportunity and equal access, and we >> are continually working harder to find ways to make the tools we use, >> facilities we access, and methods we apply accessible to our entire >> community. Please visit the sites below to learn more about how to >> support >> our community members with disabilities: >> >> --Services for Students with Disabilities handbook for faculty >> (http://ssd.umich.edu/files/ssd/SSD_Faculty_Handbook.pdf) >> --Knox Center Adaptive Technology Computing Site >> (http://www.itcs.umich.edu/atcs/computing-site.php) >> --M+Google site >> (https://sites.google.com/a/umich.edu/going-google/accessibility) >> >> Thank you for your attention to this important matter. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> Martha E. Pollack >> Provost and Executive Vice President for Academic Affairs >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > From johnniejduran at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 17:57:51 2013 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 10:57:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction Message-ID: Hi y'all, I just subscribed to this list, and thought that it'd be a good idea to introduce myself, I don't know if I'm supposed to be posting to this list or not, whereas some lists are just for announcements, so I apologise if not. My name is Johnnie Jean Duran, but I prefer to go by JJ. I am an 8th grade female from Lakewood Colorado, and I am currently attending O'Connell Middle School. I've been totally blind since birth. I have been a member of the NFB of Colorado for 3 years, currently a part of the North Metro Chapter. I look forward to being a part of this list, and it's nice to meet all of you. Thanks, -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Twitter: @johnnie_jean Instagram: @jjd_cx Skype: jj.duran13 Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran Kik: jjd_13 Snapchat: jj_4720 From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 6 18:03:53 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (Justin Williams) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 13:03:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/6/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Hi y'all, > I just subscribed to this list, and thought that it'd be a good idea > to introduce myself, I don't know if I'm supposed to be posting to > this list or not, whereas some lists are just for announcements, so I > apologise if not. > My name is Johnnie Jean Duran, but I prefer to go by JJ. I am an 8th > grade female from Lakewood Colorado, and I am currently attending > O'Connell Middle School. I've been totally blind since birth. I have > been a member of the NFB of Colorado for 3 years, currently a part of > the North Metro Chapter. I look forward to being a part of this list, > and it's nice to meet all of you. > Thanks, > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Twitter: @johnnie_jean > Instagram: @jjd_cx > Skype: jj.duran13 > Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran > Kik: jjd_13 > Snapchat: jj_4720 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > Good to have you. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 6 18:36:42 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 13:36:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F43F202538E4477874F181B14D09E14@OwnerPC> welcome; this list is definitely for posting questions. We have great discussions. -----Original Message----- From: johnnie Jean duran Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 12:57 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction Hi y'all, I just subscribed to this list, and thought that it'd be a good idea to introduce myself, I don't know if I'm supposed to be posting to this list or not, whereas some lists are just for announcements, so I apologise if not. My name is Johnnie Jean Duran, but I prefer to go by JJ. I am an 8th grade female from Lakewood Colorado, and I am currently attending O'Connell Middle School. I've been totally blind since birth. I have been a member of the NFB of Colorado for 3 years, currently a part of the North Metro Chapter. I look forward to being a part of this list, and it's nice to meet all of you. Thanks, -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Twitter: @johnnie_jean Instagram: @jjd_cx Skype: jj.duran13 Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran Kik: jjd_13 Snapchat: jj_4720 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From pgradioman at hotmail.com Wed Nov 6 19:23:53 2013 From: pgradioman at hotmail.com (Preston Gaylor) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 14:23:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello JJ: This is Preston from PA. Welcome to the list! I think that you are going to like it here. We post lots of great discussions, and this is also a great resource to meet and get to know other blind students. Enjoy, and take care! Sincerely, Preston Gaylor Sent from my iPod On Nov 6, 2013, at 12:58 PM, "johnnie Jean duran" wrote: > Hi y'all, > I just subscribed to this list, and thought that it'd be a good idea > to introduce myself, I don't know if I'm supposed to be posting to > this list or not, whereas some lists are just for announcements, so I > apologise if not. > My name is Johnnie Jean Duran, but I prefer to go by JJ. I am an 8th > grade female from Lakewood Colorado, and I am currently attending > O'Connell Middle School. I've been totally blind since birth. I have > been a member of the NFB of Colorado for 3 years, currently a part of > the North Metro Chapter. I look forward to being a part of this list, > and it's nice to meet all of you. > Thanks, > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Twitter: @johnnie_jean > Instagram: @jjd_cx > Skype: jj.duran13 > Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran > Kik: jjd_13 > Snapchat: jj_4720 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pgradioman%40hotmail.com From dburke at cocenter.org Wed Nov 6 22:24:28 2013 From: dburke at cocenter.org (Dan Burke) Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:24:28 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Nook Study textbooks Message-ID: Curious if anyone on the list is using a Nook Study textbook from Barnes & Noble. This is not the iOS app. It can only be used on a PC or Mac. Thanks, Dan Dan Burke Academic and Youth Services Colorado Center for the Blind Take charge with confidence and self-reliance www.cocenter.org facebook.com/coloradocenterfortheblind @CoCenter4Blind www.youtube.com/user/cocenterorg 2233 W. Shepperd Ave. Littleton, CO 80120 303-778-1130 ext. 213 Fax: 303-778-1598 From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 13:35:30 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 08:35:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents Message-ID: Hello, Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend national convention this year through one of the available scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm looking for assistance with it. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks, Josh -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Thu Nov 7 14:05:16 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 14:05:16 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you have some usable vision? How do you usually navigate settings such as school or college? I'm glad you plan to attend. It's a wonderful experience. Let's put our heads together and figure things out so you can make it. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh gregory Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 8:36 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents Hello, Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend national convention this year through one of the available scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm looking for assistance with it. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thanks, Josh -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 14:09:04 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:09:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First thing's first, applying for scholarship... no, I have no usable vision, I can see light but that's it. Navigation, I usually have people push me around, it's faster, but I can do it myself. On 11/7/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > Do you have some usable vision? How do you usually navigate settings such > as school or college? I'm glad you plan to attend. It's a wonderful > experience. Let's put our heads together and figure things out so you can > make it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh gregory > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 8:36 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents > > Hello, > Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. > I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend national > convention this year through one of the available scholarships. However, I'm > wondering how people who are in wheelchairs have managed to navigate, do > things, and stuff like that? What assistance is available for people like > us? Would we have to pay for such things on our own? It'd be my first time > attending and it's quite exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to > tackle, and I'm looking for assistance with it. > Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Josh > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Thu Nov 7 14:23:07 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 14:23:07 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Navigating the convention center is tricky because its huge and there are a lot of crouds. I sort of figure it out as I go. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh gregory Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:09 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents First thing's first, applying for scholarship... no, I have no usable vision, I can see light but that's it. Navigation, I usually have people push me around, it's faster, but I can do it myself. On 11/7/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: > Do you have some usable vision? How do you usually navigate settings > such as school or college? I'm glad you plan to attend. It's a > wonderful experience. Let's put our heads together and figure things > out so you can make it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh > gregory > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 8:36 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents > > Hello, > Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. > I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend > national convention this year through one of the available > scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs > have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What > assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for > such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite > exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm looking for assistance with it. > Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Josh > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40db > s.fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail > .com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 14:30:12 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:30:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FCA3180-D678-4DB1-8A87-29A4B77FBDA8@gmail.com> But could be a potential challenge, then… We can figure it out though. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 7, 2013, at 9:23 AM, "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: > > Navigating the convention center is tricky because its huge and there are a lot of crouds. I sort of figure it out as I go. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh gregory > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents > > First thing's first, applying for scholarship... no, I have no usable vision, I can see light but that's it. Navigation, I usually have people push me around, it's faster, but I can do it myself. > >> On 11/7/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >> Do you have some usable vision? How do you usually navigate settings >> such as school or college? I'm glad you plan to attend. It's a >> wonderful experience. Let's put our heads together and figure things >> out so you can make it. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh >> gregory >> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 8:36 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents >> >> Hello, >> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >> national convention this year through one of the available >> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs >> have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What >> assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for >> such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite >> exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm looking for assistance with it. >> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> -- >> Ways to Connect with me: >> >> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >> >> twitter.com/joshg93 >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40db >> s.fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail >> .com > > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Thu Nov 7 14:34:49 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 14:34:49 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: <4FCA3180-D678-4DB1-8A87-29A4B77FBDA8@gmail.com> References: <4FCA3180-D678-4DB1-8A87-29A4B77FBDA8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <115a9d6f830440ffb85ab40223cabc48@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Maybe you can bring someone to push you around? It would be much easier because of the crouds. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents But could be a potential challenge, then… We can figure it out though. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 7, 2013, at 9:23 AM, "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: > > Navigating the convention center is tricky because its huge and there are a lot of crouds. I sort of figure it out as I go. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh > gregory > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:09 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents > > First thing's first, applying for scholarship... no, I have no usable vision, I can see light but that's it. Navigation, I usually have people push me around, it's faster, but I can do it myself. > >> On 11/7/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >> Do you have some usable vision? How do you usually navigate settings >> such as school or college? I'm glad you plan to attend. It's a >> wonderful experience. Let's put our heads together and figure things >> out so you can make it. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh >> gregory >> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 8:36 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents >> >> Hello, >> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >> national convention this year through one of the available >> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in >> wheelchairs have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? >> What assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay >> for such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's >> quite exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm looking for assistance with it. >> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> -- >> Ways to Connect with me: >> >> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >> >> twitter.com/joshg93 >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40d >> b >> s.fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmai >> l >> .com > > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40db > s.fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail > .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 14:38:53 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:38:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: <115a9d6f830440ffb85ab40223cabc48@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> References: <4FCA3180-D678-4DB1-8A87-29A4B77FBDA8@gmail.com> <115a9d6f830440ffb85ab40223cabc48@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <3EAAF297-FFDA-4334-BF29-DC56AC9C930E@gmail.com> It is quite a possibility, I'll have to see what I can do about that. Thanks! Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 7, 2013, at 9:34 AM, "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: > > Maybe you can bring someone to push you around? It would be much easier because of the crouds. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Josh Gregory > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:30 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents > > But could be a potential challenge, then… We can figure it out though. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 7, 2013, at 9:23 AM, "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: >> >> Navigating the convention center is tricky because its huge and there are a lot of crouds. I sort of figure it out as I go. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh >> gregory >> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:09 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents >> >> First thing's first, applying for scholarship... no, I have no usable vision, I can see light but that's it. Navigation, I usually have people push me around, it's faster, but I can do it myself. >> >>> On 11/7/13, Wasif, Zunaira wrote: >>> Do you have some usable vision? How do you usually navigate settings >>> such as school or college? I'm glad you plan to attend. It's a >>> wonderful experience. Let's put our heads together and figure things >>> out so you can make it. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of josh >>> gregory >>> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 8:36 AM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents >>> >>> Hello, >>> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >>> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >>> national convention this year through one of the available >>> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in >>> wheelchairs have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? >>> What assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay >>> for such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's >>> quite exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm looking for assistance with it. >>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >>> Thanks, >>> Josh >>> >>> -- >>> Ways to Connect with me: >>> >>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>> >>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40d >>> b >>> s.fldoe.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmai >>> l >>> .com >> >> >> -- >> Ways to Connect with me: >> >> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >> >> twitter.com/joshg93 >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40db >> s.fldoe.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail >> .com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 7 14:39:09 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 07:39:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <527BA60D.1020600@comcast.net> On 11/6/2013 10:57 AM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Hi y'all, > I just subscribed to this list, and thought that it'd be a good idea > to introduce myself, I don't know if I'm supposed to be posting to > this list or not, whereas some lists are just for announcements, so I > apologise if not. > My name is Johnnie Jean Duran, but I prefer to go by JJ. I am an 8th > grade female from Lakewood Colorado, and I am currently attending > O'Connell Middle School. I've been totally blind since birth. I have > been a member of the NFB of Colorado for 3 years, currently a part of > the North Metro Chapter. I look forward to being a part of this list, > and it's nice to meet all of you. > Thanks, Hi, Johnny Jean, otherwise known as JJ. JJ, I'm a graduate of the Colorado Center of the Blind, and so I live in Colorado as a result. Congrats on the middle school journey as it was tough on me. I did private school back then, and I did not benefit well fromthat. There are lots of extracurriculars which you can be involved in at middle school versus my k-8 private school had next to nothing but sports and choir and I did math club but that doesn't count much because I hated math with a passion. But seeing so many blind people get into STEM professions, science, tech, engineering, and math, is heartwarming. Hey, Ilive in the Denver area on the border of Lakewood, so hit me up by email or FB anytime. I"m proud of you. Beth From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 14:43:48 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (Justin Williams) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:43:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: > Hello, > Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. > I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend > national convention this year through one of the available > scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs > have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What > assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for > such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite > exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm > looking for assistance with it. > Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Josh > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 14:55:37 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (josh gregory) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:55:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like this might be blank… On 11/7/13, Justin Williams wrote: > On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >> Hello, >> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >> national convention this year through one of the available >> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs >> have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What >> assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for >> such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite >> exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm >> looking for assistance with it. >> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> -- >> Ways to Connect with me: >> >> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >> >> twitter.com/joshg93 >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > -- Ways to Connect with me: facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo twitter.com/joshg93 Skype: joshgregory93 FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 15:49:28 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 10:49:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction References: <527BA60D.1020600@comcast.net> Message-ID: <004401cedbd0$f4a35b30$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Beth, Please tell everyone on skype my computer got a virous, and so I'm getting a new one. My sister is lending me herse. It con't do skype. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth Taurasi" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Introduction > On 11/6/2013 10:57 AM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Hi y'all, > > I just subscribed to this list, and thought that it'd be a good idea > > to introduce myself, I don't know if I'm supposed to be posting to > > this list or not, whereas some lists are just for announcements, so I > > apologise if not. > > My name is Johnnie Jean Duran, but I prefer to go by JJ. I am an 8th > > grade female from Lakewood Colorado, and I am currently attending > > O'Connell Middle School. I've been totally blind since birth. I have > > been a member of the NFB of Colorado for 3 years, currently a part of > > the North Metro Chapter. I look forward to being a part of this list, > > and it's nice to meet all of you. > > Thanks, > Hi, Johnny Jean, otherwise known as JJ. JJ, I'm a graduate of the > Colorado Center of the Blind, and so I live in Colorado as a result. > Congrats on the middle school journey as it was tough on me. I did > private school back then, and I did not benefit well fromthat. There > are lots of extracurriculars which you can be involved in at middle > school versus my k-8 private school had next to nothing but sports and > choir and I did math club but that doesn't count much because I hated > math with a passion. But seeing so many blind people get into STEM > professions, science, tech, engineering, and math, is heartwarming. Hey, > Ilive in the Denver area on the border of Lakewood, so hit me up by > email or FB anytime. I"m proud of you. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Thu Nov 7 15:57:08 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 08:57:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Acrobat Professional Read out loud Message-ID: I normally use zoom but decided I might want to use speech output for some of my texts. I am using acrobat professional x on Mac OS Mavericks. I tried to change the speech rate in the preferences menu and it does not seem to change it at all. The default was 220. I set it to 500 and hear no difference. Do I need to change any other settings. I do not have mac voice over enabled. Thank you From sjhhirst at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 16:15:32 2013 From: sjhhirst at gmail.com (Stephanie H. DeLuca) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 10:15:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Waltham-based company lets people with disabilities rate accessibility of businesses In-Reply-To: <9D328A8A-E37F-4D1E-B300-07C153A64C13@solynx.com> References: <9D328A8A-E37F-4D1E-B300-07C153A64C13@solynx.com> Message-ID: In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind. ~Louis Pasteur, lecture 1854 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Alice Date: Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 6:31 AM Subject: Waltham-based company lets people with disabilities rate accessibility of businesses To: Stephanie DeLuca , Samuel Louis DeLuca < samuel.l.deluca at vanderbilt.edu> *Waltham-based company lets people with disabilities rate accessibility of businesses* http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/waltham/2013/11/waltham-based_company_lets_people_with_disabilities_rate_acc.html?rss_id=Most%20Popular Shared via News360 Sent from my iPad From johnniejduran at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 16:20:34 2013 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:20:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Josh, actually, if you contact the president Marc Mauwer, he will make sure to provide sighted assistance for you. On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: > Looks like this might be blank… > > On 11/7/13, Justin Williams wrote: >> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >>> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >>> national convention this year through one of the available >>> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs >>> have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What >>> assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for >>> such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite >>> exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm >>> looking for assistance with it. >>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >>> Thanks, >>> Josh >>> >>> -- >>> Ways to Connect with me: >>> >>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>> >>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Ways to Connect with me: > > facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo > > twitter.com/joshg93 > Skype: joshgregory93 > FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > -- Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Twitter: @johnnie_jean Instagram: @jjd_cx Skype: jj.duran13 Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran Kik: jjd_13 Snapchat: jj_4720 From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 16:28:03 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 11:28:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47392A81-7F0C-4F0F-90E9-55488FCDB495@gmail.com> Thanks nice piece of advice! Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 7, 2013, at 11:20 AM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Josh, actually, if you contact the president Marc Mauwer, he will make > sure to provide sighted assistance for you. > >> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >> Looks like this might be blank… >> >>> On 11/7/13, Justin Williams wrote: >>>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >>>> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >>>> national convention this year through one of the available >>>> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs >>>> have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What >>>> assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for >>>> such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite >>>> exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm >>>> looking for assistance with it. >>>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Josh >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ways to Connect with me: >>>> >>>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>>> >>>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Ways to Connect with me: >> >> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >> >> twitter.com/joshg93 >> Skype: joshgregory93 >> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > > > -- > Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Twitter: @johnnie_jean > Instagram: @jjd_cx > Skype: jj.duran13 > Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran > Kik: jjd_13 > Snapchat: jj_4720 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 19:56:02 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 12:56:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: <47392A81-7F0C-4F0F-90E9-55488FCDB495@gmail.com> References: <47392A81-7F0C-4F0F-90E9-55488FCDB495@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Josh, I hope you can make it to next year's convention. I always see lots of folks there who use wheelchairs, so I know it can be done. I'm not sure if the convention committee provides wheelchair pushers or if you need to bring your own. They have a lot of UPS volunteers staffing the convention and so someone from that group might be able to help you. I would suggest talking to your NFB state president about funding and also about requesting a pusher as an accommodation. Best of luck! Arielle On 11/7/13, Josh Gregory wrote: > Thanks nice piece of advice! > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 7, 2013, at 11:20 AM, johnnie Jean duran >> wrote: >> >> Josh, actually, if you contact the president Marc Mauwer, he will make >> sure to provide sighted assistance for you. >> >>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>> Looks like this might be blank… >>> >>>> On 11/7/13, Justin Williams wrote: >>>>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>>>> Hello, >>>>> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >>>>> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >>>>> national convention this year through one of the available >>>>> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs >>>>> have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What >>>>> assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for >>>>> such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite >>>>> exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm >>>>> looking for assistance with it. >>>>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Josh >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ways to Connect with me: >>>>> >>>>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>>>> >>>>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ways to Connect with me: >>> >>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>> >>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Johnnie Jean Duran >> 8th Grade Student >> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >> the NFB. >> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >> Twitter: @johnnie_jean >> Instagram: @jjd_cx >> Skype: jj.duran13 >> Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran >> Kik: jjd_13 >> Snapchat: jj_4720 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 20:41:48 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 15:41:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: <47392A81-7F0C-4F0F-90E9-55488FCDB495@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E96FB0B-BE39-4ED0-894B-D4A4A7CFAB40@gmail.com> Thanks very much, greatly appreciated. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 7, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi Josh, > > I hope you can make it to next year's convention. I always see lots of > folks there who use wheelchairs, so I know it can be done. I'm not > sure if the convention committee provides wheelchair pushers or if you > need to bring your own. They have a lot of UPS volunteers staffing the > convention and so someone from that group might be able to help you. I > would suggest talking to your NFB state president about funding and > also about requesting a pusher as an accommodation. Best of luck! > > Arielle > >> On 11/7/13, Josh Gregory wrote: >> Thanks nice piece of advice! >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 7, 2013, at 11:20 AM, johnnie Jean duran >>> wrote: >>> >>> Josh, actually, if you contact the president Marc Mauwer, he will make >>> sure to provide sighted assistance for you. >>> >>>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>>> Looks like this might be blank… >>>> >>>>>> On 11/7/13, Justin Williams wrote: >>>>>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >>>>>> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >>>>>> national convention this year through one of the available >>>>>> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in wheelchairs >>>>>> have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What >>>>>> assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for >>>>>> such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's quite >>>>>> exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm >>>>>> looking for assistance with it. >>>>>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Josh >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ways to Connect with me: >>>>>> >>>>>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>>>>> >>>>>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>>>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>>>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ways to Connect with me: >>>> >>>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>>> >>>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Johnnie Jean Duran >>> 8th Grade Student >>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>> the NFB. >>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>> Twitter: @johnnie_jean >>> Instagram: @jjd_cx >>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>> Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran >>> Kik: jjd_13 >>> Snapchat: jj_4720 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 21:21:58 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 16:21:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: <5E96FB0B-BE39-4ED0-894B-D4A4A7CFAB40@gmail.com> References: <47392A81-7F0C-4F0F-90E9-55488FCDB495@gmail.com> <5E96FB0B-BE39-4ED0-894B-D4A4A7CFAB40@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, As was said, I met/saw a lot of people who use wheelchairs at the 2013 convention, so it is doable. There are plenty of UPS volunteers that walk around to provide assistance to everyone, so I'm sure that one or two might look out for wheelchair or users specifically. I would talk to your state president and see what they say about it. Either a volunteer can be arranged at convention, or sometimes people from affiliates volunteer to push wheelchairs. One of my scholarship mentors and his wife were wheelchair users, and other people in their affiliate volunteered themselves just because it was easier. I would hope that people from your state would do the same. Good luck in applying for the scholarship! It's a great honor and a great experience to attend convention for the first time. On 11/7/13, Josh Gregory wrote: > Thanks very much, greatly appreciated. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 7, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi Josh, >> >> I hope you can make it to next year's convention. I always see lots of >> folks there who use wheelchairs, so I know it can be done. I'm not >> sure if the convention committee provides wheelchair pushers or if you >> need to bring your own. They have a lot of UPS volunteers staffing the >> convention and so someone from that group might be able to help you. I >> would suggest talking to your NFB state president about funding and >> also about requesting a pusher as an accommodation. Best of luck! >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 11/7/13, Josh Gregory wrote: >>> Thanks nice piece of advice! >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 7, 2013, at 11:20 AM, johnnie Jean duran >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Josh, actually, if you contact the president Marc Mauwer, he will make >>>> sure to provide sighted assistance for you. >>>> >>>>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>>>> Looks like this might be blank… >>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/7/13, Justin Williams wrote: >>>>>>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >>>>>>> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >>>>>>> national convention this year through one of the available >>>>>>> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in >>>>>>> wheelchairs >>>>>>> have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What >>>>>>> assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for >>>>>>> such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's >>>>>>> quite >>>>>>> exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm >>>>>>> looking for assistance with it. >>>>>>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Ways to Connect with me: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>>>>>> >>>>>>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>>>>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>>>>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ways to Connect with me: >>>>> >>>>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>>>> >>>>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Johnnie Jean Duran >>>> 8th Grade Student >>>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>>> the NFB. >>>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>>> Twitter: @johnnie_jean >>>> Instagram: @jjd_cx >>>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>>> Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran >>>> Kik: jjd_13 >>>> Snapchat: jj_4720 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From joshkart12 at gmail.com Thu Nov 7 21:32:02 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 16:32:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Convention and Wheelchair Attendents In-Reply-To: References: <47392A81-7F0C-4F0F-90E9-55488FCDB495@gmail.com> <5E96FB0B-BE39-4ED0-894B-D4A4A7CFAB40@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, it's greatly appreciated, I'm sure somebody can help out. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 7, 2013, at 4:21 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi, > > As was said, I met/saw a lot of people who use wheelchairs at the 2013 > convention, so it is doable. There are plenty of UPS volunteers that > walk around to provide assistance to everyone, so I'm sure that one or > two might look out for wheelchair or users specifically. I would talk > to your state president and see what they say about it. Either a > volunteer can be arranged at convention, or sometimes people from > affiliates volunteer to push wheelchairs. One of my scholarship > mentors and his wife were wheelchair users, and other people in their > affiliate volunteered themselves just because it was easier. I would > hope that people from your state would do the same. > > Good luck in applying for the scholarship! It's a great honor and a > great experience to attend convention for the first time. > >> On 11/7/13, Josh Gregory wrote: >> Thanks very much, greatly appreciated. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 7, 2013, at 2:56 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >>> Hi Josh, >>> >>> I hope you can make it to next year's convention. I always see lots of >>> folks there who use wheelchairs, so I know it can be done. I'm not >>> sure if the convention committee provides wheelchair pushers or if you >>> need to bring your own. They have a lot of UPS volunteers staffing the >>> convention and so someone from that group might be able to help you. I >>> would suggest talking to your NFB state president about funding and >>> also about requesting a pusher as an accommodation. Best of luck! >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 11/7/13, Josh Gregory wrote: >>>> Thanks nice piece of advice! >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Nov 7, 2013, at 11:20 AM, johnnie Jean duran >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Josh, actually, if you contact the president Marc Mauwer, he will make >>>>> sure to provide sighted assistance for you. >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>>>>> Looks like this might be blank… >>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/7/13, Justin Williams wrote: >>>>>>>> On 11/7/13, josh gregory wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> Maybe a weird question for some, but here goes. >>>>>>>> I am, indeed, in a wheelchair. I'm looking to hopefully attend >>>>>>>> national convention this year through one of the available >>>>>>>> scholarships. However, I'm wondering how people who are in >>>>>>>> wheelchairs >>>>>>>> have managed to navigate, do things, and stuff like that? What >>>>>>>> assistance is available for people like us? Would we have to pay for >>>>>>>> such things on our own? It'd be my first time attending and it's >>>>>>>> quite >>>>>>>> exciting, but this is one of the things I'd have to tackle, and I'm >>>>>>>> looking for assistance with it. >>>>>>>> Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Josh >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Ways to Connect with me: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>>>>>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>>>>>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ways to Connect with me: >>>>>> >>>>>> facebook.com/evercuriousmasteryodo >>>>>> >>>>>> twitter.com/joshg93 >>>>>> Skype: joshgregory93 >>>>>> FaceTime, iMessage and iChat: joshkart12 at gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Johnnie Jean Duran >>>>> 8th Grade Student >>>>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>>>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>>>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>>>> the NFB. >>>>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>>>> Twitter: @johnnie_jean >>>>> Instagram: @jjd_cx >>>>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>>>> Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran >>>>> Kik: jjd_13 >>>>> Snapchat: jj_4720 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 03:10:58 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 22:10:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover Message-ID: Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the guitar, and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will really appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like to learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! From johnniejduran at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 03:16:38 2013 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 20:16:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The talking tuner app for $0.99 is completely accessible. On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: > Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the guitar, > and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a > accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just > wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me > sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will really > appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like to > learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! > P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > -- Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Twitter: @johnnie_jean Instagram: @jjd_cx Skype: jj.duran13 Goodreads: Johnnie Jean Duran Kik: jjd_13 Snapchat: jj_4720 From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 8 03:18:12 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 03:18:12 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7489e3bd95104451bca2888c8f6d2ff1@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> I play guitar, but I don't use apps. I go by how it sounds. Please join the Music Talk list. musictlk-subscribe at nfbnet.org musictlk at nfbnet.org to post. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:10 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the guitar, and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will really appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like to learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Fri Nov 8 03:27:25 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 22:27:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: <7489e3bd95104451bca2888c8f6d2ff1@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <7489e3bd95104451bca2888c8f6d2ff1@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hey Joshua! How do I joint the music Talk list? Just curious! Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 10:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover I play guitar, but I don't use apps. I go by how it sounds. Please join the Music Talk list. musictlk-subscribe at nfbnet.org musictlk at nfbnet.org to post. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:10 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the guitar, and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will really appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like to learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From codyjbair at yahoo.com Fri Nov 8 05:05:01 2013 From: codyjbair at yahoo.com (Cody Bair) Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 22:05:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] GMAT Message-ID: Hi All, I am writing as I am curious as to whether any of you have taken the GMAT exam? If so how did you go about requesting accomidations and were you successfull in getting your desired accomidations? Thanks, Cody From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 06:46:41 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 01:46:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: <7489e3bd95104451bca2888c8f6d2ff1@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Helga, I use "Pitch Pipe," which is free on the ITunes store. It's completely accessible with voiceover, and allows you to hear all the pitches on a chromatic scale so you can tune any note. Just make sure that if you're using standard tuning you use E for String 6, A for string 5, D for string 4, G for string 3, B for string 2, and E for string 1. The numbers refer to the position of the strings, with string 1 being the one closest to the ground and the high E and string 6 being closest to you or the cieling and the lower E. Hope the app information and my explanation of tuning helps. On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: > Hey Joshua! How do I joint the music Talk list? Just curious! Thanks and God > > bless!! :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 10:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is > Accessible with voiceover > > I play guitar, but I don't use apps. > I go by how it sounds. > Please join the Music Talk list. > musictlk-subscribe at nfbnet.org > musictlk at nfbnet.org to post. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber > [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:10 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible > with voiceover > > Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the guitar, > and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a > accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just > wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me > sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will really > appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like to > > learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! > P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 10:11:53 2013 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 10:11:53 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: <7489e3bd95104451bca2888c8f6d2ff1@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hello Helga, I use a tuning fork. There's nothing to fiddle with regarding apps etc. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Helga, > > I use "Pitch Pipe," which is free on the ITunes store. It's > completely accessible with voiceover, and allows you to hear all the > pitches on a chromatic scale so you can tune any note. Just make sure > that if you're using standard tuning you use E for String 6, A for > string 5, D for string 4, G for string 3, B for string 2, and E for > string 1. The numbers refer to the position of the strings, with > string 1 being the one closest to the ground and the high E and string > 6 being closest to you or the cieling and the lower E. > > Hope the app information and my explanation of tuning helps. > > On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >> Hey Joshua! How do I joint the music Talk list? Just curious! Thanks and >> God >> >> bless!! :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 10:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is >> Accessible with voiceover >> >> I play guitar, but I don't use apps. >> I go by how it sounds. >> Please join the Music Talk list. >> musictlk-subscribe at nfbnet.org >> musictlk at nfbnet.org to post. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber >> [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:10 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is >> Accessible >> with voiceover >> >> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >> guitar, >> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >> really >> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like >> to >> >> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Nov 8 11:12:34 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2013 04:12:34 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction In-Reply-To: <004401cedbd0$f4a35b30$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <527BA60D.1020600@comcast.net> <004401cedbd0$f4a35b30$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <527CC722.6010807@comcast.net> On 11/7/2013 8:49 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Beth, Please tell everyone on skype my computer got a virous, and so I'm > getting a new one. My sister is lending me herse. It con't do skype. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth Taurasi" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Introduction > > >> On 11/6/2013 10:57 AM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>> Hi y'all, >>> I just subscribed to this list, and thought that it'd be a good idea >>> to introduce myself, I don't know if I'm supposed to be posting to >>> this list or not, whereas some lists are just for announcements, so I >>> apologise if not. >>> My name is Johnnie Jean Duran, but I prefer to go by JJ. I am an 8th >>> grade female from Lakewood Colorado, and I am currently attending >>> O'Connell Middle School. I've been totally blind since birth. I have >>> been a member of the NFB of Colorado for 3 years, currently a part of >>> the North Metro Chapter. I look forward to being a part of this list, >>> and it's nice to meet all of you. >>> Thanks, >> Hi, Johnny Jean, otherwise known as JJ. JJ, I'm a graduate of the >> Colorado Center of the Blind, and so I live in Colorado as a result. >> Congrats on the middle school journey as it was tough on me. I did >> private school back then, and I did not benefit well fromthat. There >> are lots of extracurriculars which you can be involved in at middle >> school versus my k-8 private school had next to nothing but sports and >> choir and I did math club but that doesn't count much because I hated >> math with a passion. But seeing so many blind people get into STEM >> professions, science, tech, engineering, and math, is heartwarming. Hey, >> Ilive in the Denver area on the border of Lakewood, so hit me up by >> email or FB anytime. I"m proud of you. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > Holy God, RJ, I'm so sorry! That's fine. I hope you get a new computer soon. And I will tell Blake and the crew all that stuff about the ... virus. Beth From louvins at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 11:41:12 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 05:41:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: <7489e3bd95104451bca2888c8f6d2ff1@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi to Helga and all. I agree with Sandra. You should really use tuning forks for tuning your guitar. There is an e fork to tune both your e strings, and an a fork to tune your a string. I have been tuning my guitar by ear for years, and have gotten pretty good at it, but still not perfect. I'm one of those people who probly tunes my guitar to much, because I want to be in 440 tuning which just means, that all the strings are tuned perfectly. I don't like pitch pipes because I don't think I can get as close to the correct note as I can with a tuning fork. Good luck. Also, a good string to buy for an acoustic guitar is martin strings. They are very good at staying in tune compared to other brands I've tried in the past. On 11/8/13, Sandra Gayer wrote: > Hello Helga, > I use a tuning fork. There's nothing to fiddle with regarding apps etc. > > Very best wishes, > Sandra. > > On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi Helga, >> >> I use "Pitch Pipe," which is free on the ITunes store. It's >> completely accessible with voiceover, and allows you to hear all the >> pitches on a chromatic scale so you can tune any note. Just make sure >> that if you're using standard tuning you use E for String 6, A for >> string 5, D for string 4, G for string 3, B for string 2, and E for >> string 1. The numbers refer to the position of the strings, with >> string 1 being the one closest to the ground and the high E and string >> 6 being closest to you or the cieling and the lower E. >> >> Hope the app information and my explanation of tuning helps. >> >> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >>> Hey Joshua! How do I joint the music Talk list? Just curious! Thanks and >>> God >>> >>> bless!! :) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 10:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is >>> Accessible with voiceover >>> >>> I play guitar, but I don't use apps. >>> I go by how it sounds. >>> Please join the Music Talk list. >>> musictlk-subscribe at nfbnet.org >>> musictlk at nfbnet.org to post. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber >>> [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:10 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is >>> Accessible >>> with voiceover >>> >>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >>> guitar, >>> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >>> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >>> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >>> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >>> really >>> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like >>> to >>> >>> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >>> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Soprano Singer > www.sandragayer.com > > Broadcast Presenter > > www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From violingirl30794 at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 11:42:16 2013 From: violingirl30794 at gmail.com (Abigail Bolling) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 06:42:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: <7489e3bd95104451bca2888c8f6d2ff1@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <0AD96AC6-E17C-4E99-A2BC-3F6AE5FEDF64@gmail.com> Hi Helga, I also use pitch pipe. I find it to be the most helpful. Best of luck. Abigail Bolling Ohio Association of Blind Students: Treasurer Phone: 513-258-5043 > On Nov 8, 2013, at 1:46 AM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi Helga, > > I use "Pitch Pipe," which is free on the ITunes store. It's > completely accessible with voiceover, and allows you to hear all the > pitches on a chromatic scale so you can tune any note. Just make sure > that if you're using standard tuning you use E for String 6, A for > string 5, D for string 4, G for string 3, B for string 2, and E for > string 1. The numbers refer to the position of the strings, with > string 1 being the one closest to the ground and the high E and string > 6 being closest to you or the cieling and the lower E. > > Hope the app information and my explanation of tuning helps. > >> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >> Hey Joshua! How do I joint the music Talk list? Just curious! Thanks and God >> >> bless!! :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2013 10:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is >> Accessible with voiceover >> >> I play guitar, but I don't use apps. >> I go by how it sounds. >> Please join the Music Talk list. >> musictlk-subscribe at nfbnet.org >> musictlk at nfbnet.org to post. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber >> [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:10 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible >> with voiceover >> >> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the guitar, >> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will really >> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like to >> >> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/violingirl30794%40gmail.com From jeffanel at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 15:14:24 2013 From: jeffanel at gmail.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 10:14:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second fret e on the 3rd string. I hope this wasn't to confusing. thanks On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: > Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the guitar, > and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a > accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just > wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me > sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will really > appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like to > learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! > P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com > -- 73 kd8qiq jeff crouch From jeffanel at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 15:22:26 2013 From: jeffanel at gmail.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 10:22:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] capsha solver questions Message-ID: Hi all, Jeff here, i am using a mac book pro, with safary, and i am running in to lots of capshas and i don't know how to get around them, i don't have sighted assistance, and as you all are aware of the audio is uncopible. If anyone has any sajustions on what i should do, please let me know. thanks -- 73 k8tvv jeff crouch From louvins at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 15:24:47 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 09:24:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jeff. I also use the fifth fret method as you do, but I use the tuning forks just in case. I always like to recheck my tuning. On 11/8/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: > Hi, > I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, > i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. > So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th > string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play > that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below > that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to > the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with > the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd > string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch > with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next > string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is > different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is > the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are > perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you > will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with > the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it > with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way > to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and > play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the > 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second > fret e on the 3rd string. > > I hope this wasn't to confusing. > > thanks > > On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >> guitar, >> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >> really >> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like >> to >> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > 73 > kd8qiq > jeff crouch > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 15:29:31 2013 From: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com (ryan bishop) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 08:29:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] capsha solver questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000d01cedc97$5fb08760$1f119620$@gmail.com> Hi Jeff, If your able to get Firefox I would recommend getting WebVism. Write me off list and I can send you a referral if you want. It will allow you to solve captias in one click. Ryan Ryan Bishop Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com 480-221-5195 Secretary Arizona Association of blind students http://az.nfb.org/aabs National Federation of the Blind of Arizona http://az.nfb.org The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind person has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical nuisance. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Crouch Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:22 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] capsha solver questions Hi all, Jeff here, i am using a mac book pro, with safary, and i am running in to lots of capshas and i don't know how to get around them, i don't have sighted assistance, and as you all are aware of the audio is uncopible. If anyone has any sajustions on what i should do, please let me know. thanks -- 73 k8tvv jeff crouch _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co m From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 8 16:30:48 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 11:30:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction In-Reply-To: <527CC722.6010807@comcast.net> References: <527BA60D.1020600@comcast.net><004401cedbd0$f4a35b30$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <527CC722.6010807@comcast.net> Message-ID: <05B3B2702FB14495A89AA7A2B9F5EF38@OwnerPC> beth, your messages are at the bottom again. Hope you can fix this. -----Original Message----- From: Beth Taurasi Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 6:12 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Introduction On 11/7/2013 8:49 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Beth, Please tell everyone on skype my computer got a virous, and so I'm > getting a new one. My sister is lending me herse. It con't do skype. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Beth Taurasi" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2013 9:39 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Introduction > > >> On 11/6/2013 10:57 AM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>> Hi y'all, >>> I just subscribed to this list, and thought that it'd be a good idea >>> to introduce myself, I don't know if I'm supposed to be posting to >>> this list or not, whereas some lists are just for announcements, so I >>> apologise if not. >>> My name is Johnnie Jean Duran, but I prefer to go by JJ. I am an 8th >>> grade female from Lakewood Colorado, and I am currently attending >>> O'Connell Middle School. I've been totally blind since birth. I have >>> been a member of the NFB of Colorado for 3 years, currently a part of >>> the North Metro Chapter. I look forward to being a part of this list, >>> and it's nice to meet all of you. >>> Thanks, >> Hi, Johnny Jean, otherwise known as JJ. JJ, I'm a graduate of the >> Colorado Center of the Blind, and so I live in Colorado as a result. >> Congrats on the middle school journey as it was tough on me. I did >> private school back then, and I did not benefit well fromthat. There >> are lots of extracurriculars which you can be involved in at middle >> school versus my k-8 private school had next to nothing but sports and >> choir and I did math club but that doesn't count much because I hated >> math with a passion. But seeing so many blind people get into STEM >> professions, science, tech, engineering, and math, is heartwarming. Hey, >> Ilive in the Denver area on the border of Lakewood, so hit me up by >> email or FB anytime. I"m proud of you. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > Holy God, RJ, I'm so sorry! That's fine. I hope you get a new computer soon. And I will tell Blake and the crew all that stuff about the ... virus. Beth _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 19:45:43 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 14:45:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I use fifth fret as well, and am beginning to tune with harmonics but am not that great at it yet. Fifth fret tuning is definitely a skill you should work on, but in order for it to work you need to make sure your low E string is in tune first. The really nice thing about the pitch pipe app is that you can have one tuner for all your musical needs on your phone; no buying guitar tuners and having a separate chromatic one, or falling into the trap of buying a tuner that only does guitar in the first place, as to me that seems like kind of a scam and a waste of money. This way you can check any note. You want to tune a guitar, this thing covers it; you want to sing in a group and everyone needs a starting pitch, you've got that too. I like using tuning forks for some things, but especially since I carry a lot around I prefer the app because it's already on my phone. It's also one less thing in my guitar case with my strings, capo, and other stuff. On 11/8/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: > Hi Jeff. I also use the fifth fret method as you do, but I use the > tuning forks just in case. I always like to recheck my tuning. > > On 11/8/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: >> Hi, >> I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, >> i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. >> So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th >> string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play >> that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below >> that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to >> the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with >> the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd >> string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch >> with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next >> string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is >> different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is >> the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are >> perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you >> will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with >> the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it >> with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way >> to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and >> play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the >> 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second >> fret e on the 3rd string. >> >> I hope this wasn't to confusing. >> >> thanks >> >> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >>> guitar, >>> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >>> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >>> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >>> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >>> really >>> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would like >>> to >>> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >>> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> 73 >> kd8qiq >> jeff crouch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 19:52:44 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 14:52:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also regarding strings; Martins do get a good sound, but there are a couple of other factors to consider. I use Elixyr strings because I play a lot, (nearly every day), so I want my strings to last. The Elixyrs sound pretty good, and have a special coating which resists wear and allows for the strings to be used longer. Whereas I used to change my strings twice a year without playing nearly as much as I do now, I've had these Elixyrs since last Christmas and they've just recently given out on me. If you're still a beginner longevity might not be a huge concern right now, but it may be something to think about in the future. On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I use fifth fret as well, and am beginning to tune with harmonics but > am not that great at it yet. Fifth fret tuning is definitely a skill > you should work on, but in order for it to work you need to make sure > your low E string is in tune first. > > The really nice thing about the pitch pipe app is that you can have > one tuner for all your musical needs on your phone; no buying guitar > tuners and having a separate chromatic one, or falling into the trap > of buying a tuner that only does guitar in the first place, as to me > that seems like kind of a scam and a waste of money. This way you can > check any note. You want to tune a guitar, this thing covers it; you > want to sing in a group and everyone needs a starting pitch, you've > got that too. > > I like using tuning forks for some things, but especially since I > carry a lot around I prefer the app because it's already on my phone. > It's also one less thing in my guitar case with my strings, capo, and > other stuff. > > On 11/8/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >> Hi Jeff. I also use the fifth fret method as you do, but I use the >> tuning forks just in case. I always like to recheck my tuning. >> >> On 11/8/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: >>> Hi, >>> I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, >>> i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. >>> So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th >>> string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play >>> that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below >>> that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to >>> the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with >>> the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd >>> string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch >>> with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next >>> string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is >>> different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is >>> the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are >>> perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you >>> will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with >>> the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it >>> with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way >>> to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and >>> play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the >>> 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second >>> fret e on the 3rd string. >>> >>> I hope this wasn't to confusing. >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >>>> guitar, >>>> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >>>> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >>>> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >>>> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >>>> really >>>> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would >>>> like >>>> to >>>> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >>>> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> 73 >>> kd8qiq >>> jeff crouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 8 19:58:20 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 19:58:20 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Diederio strings are much better than elixyrs. They last longer. My friend Timothy Clark, from Music Talk uses them. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kaiti Shelton [crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 1:52 PM To: louvins at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover Also regarding strings; Martins do get a good sound, but there are a couple of other factors to consider. I use Elixyr strings because I play a lot, (nearly every day), so I want my strings to last. The Elixyrs sound pretty good, and have a special coating which resists wear and allows for the strings to be used longer. Whereas I used to change my strings twice a year without playing nearly as much as I do now, I've had these Elixyrs since last Christmas and they've just recently given out on me. If you're still a beginner longevity might not be a huge concern right now, but it may be something to think about in the future. On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I use fifth fret as well, and am beginning to tune with harmonics but > am not that great at it yet. Fifth fret tuning is definitely a skill > you should work on, but in order for it to work you need to make sure > your low E string is in tune first. > > The really nice thing about the pitch pipe app is that you can have > one tuner for all your musical needs on your phone; no buying guitar > tuners and having a separate chromatic one, or falling into the trap > of buying a tuner that only does guitar in the first place, as to me > that seems like kind of a scam and a waste of money. This way you can > check any note. You want to tune a guitar, this thing covers it; you > want to sing in a group and everyone needs a starting pitch, you've > got that too. > > I like using tuning forks for some things, but especially since I > carry a lot around I prefer the app because it's already on my phone. > It's also one less thing in my guitar case with my strings, capo, and > other stuff. > > On 11/8/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >> Hi Jeff. I also use the fifth fret method as you do, but I use the >> tuning forks just in case. I always like to recheck my tuning. >> >> On 11/8/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: >>> Hi, >>> I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, >>> i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. >>> So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th >>> string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play >>> that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below >>> that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to >>> the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with >>> the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd >>> string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch >>> with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next >>> string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is >>> different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is >>> the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are >>> perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you >>> will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with >>> the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it >>> with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way >>> to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and >>> play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the >>> 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second >>> fret e on the 3rd string. >>> >>> I hope this wasn't to confusing. >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >>>> guitar, >>>> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >>>> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >>>> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >>>> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >>>> really >>>> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would >>>> like >>>> to >>>> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >>>> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> 73 >>> kd8qiq >>> jeff crouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From louvins at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 20:02:24 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 14:02:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Caiti. I'm sure you wipe down your strings after you play. I do that, and that also helps your strings to last longer. I've heard of elixer strings. I'll have to go to guitar center and get some. I can take my guitar strings off, but I don't know how to put them on. On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Also regarding strings; Martins do get a good sound, but there are a > couple of other factors to consider. > > I use Elixyr strings because I play a lot, (nearly every day), so I > want my strings to last. The Elixyrs sound pretty good, and have a > special coating which resists wear and allows for the strings to be > used longer. Whereas I used to change my strings twice a year without > playing nearly as much as I do now, I've had these Elixyrs since last > Christmas and they've just recently given out on me. > > If you're still a beginner longevity might not be a huge concern right > now, but it may be something to think about in the future. > > On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I use fifth fret as well, and am beginning to tune with harmonics but >> am not that great at it yet. Fifth fret tuning is definitely a skill >> you should work on, but in order for it to work you need to make sure >> your low E string is in tune first. >> >> The really nice thing about the pitch pipe app is that you can have >> one tuner for all your musical needs on your phone; no buying guitar >> tuners and having a separate chromatic one, or falling into the trap >> of buying a tuner that only does guitar in the first place, as to me >> that seems like kind of a scam and a waste of money. This way you can >> check any note. You want to tune a guitar, this thing covers it; you >> want to sing in a group and everyone needs a starting pitch, you've >> got that too. >> >> I like using tuning forks for some things, but especially since I >> carry a lot around I prefer the app because it's already on my phone. >> It's also one less thing in my guitar case with my strings, capo, and >> other stuff. >> >> On 11/8/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>> Hi Jeff. I also use the fifth fret method as you do, but I use the >>> tuning forks just in case. I always like to recheck my tuning. >>> >>> On 11/8/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, >>>> i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. >>>> So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th >>>> string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play >>>> that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below >>>> that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to >>>> the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with >>>> the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd >>>> string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch >>>> with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next >>>> string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is >>>> different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is >>>> the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are >>>> perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you >>>> will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with >>>> the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it >>>> with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way >>>> to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and >>>> play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the >>>> 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second >>>> fret e on the 3rd string. >>>> >>>> I hope this wasn't to confusing. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> >>>> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >>>>> guitar, >>>>> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >>>>> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >>>>> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >>>>> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >>>>> really >>>>> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would >>>>> like >>>>> to >>>>> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >>>>> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> 73 >>>> kd8qiq >>>> jeff crouch >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> > > > -- > Kaiti > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 8 20:07:25 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 20:07:25 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <97e1ab02609b4b51b2b8050441b2ce75@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> That's an issue I also have with my guitar. I need a new High E string, because that one always breaks on me! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Joshua Hendrickson [louvins at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:02 PM To: Kaiti Shelton Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover Caiti. I'm sure you wipe down your strings after you play. I do that, and that also helps your strings to last longer. I've heard of elixer strings. I'll have to go to guitar center and get some. I can take my guitar strings off, but I don't know how to put them on. On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Also regarding strings; Martins do get a good sound, but there are a > couple of other factors to consider. > > I use Elixyr strings because I play a lot, (nearly every day), so I > want my strings to last. The Elixyrs sound pretty good, and have a > special coating which resists wear and allows for the strings to be > used longer. Whereas I used to change my strings twice a year without > playing nearly as much as I do now, I've had these Elixyrs since last > Christmas and they've just recently given out on me. > > If you're still a beginner longevity might not be a huge concern right > now, but it may be something to think about in the future. > > On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I use fifth fret as well, and am beginning to tune with harmonics but >> am not that great at it yet. Fifth fret tuning is definitely a skill >> you should work on, but in order for it to work you need to make sure >> your low E string is in tune first. >> >> The really nice thing about the pitch pipe app is that you can have >> one tuner for all your musical needs on your phone; no buying guitar >> tuners and having a separate chromatic one, or falling into the trap >> of buying a tuner that only does guitar in the first place, as to me >> that seems like kind of a scam and a waste of money. This way you can >> check any note. You want to tune a guitar, this thing covers it; you >> want to sing in a group and everyone needs a starting pitch, you've >> got that too. >> >> I like using tuning forks for some things, but especially since I >> carry a lot around I prefer the app because it's already on my phone. >> It's also one less thing in my guitar case with my strings, capo, and >> other stuff. >> >> On 11/8/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>> Hi Jeff. I also use the fifth fret method as you do, but I use the >>> tuning forks just in case. I always like to recheck my tuning. >>> >>> On 11/8/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, >>>> i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. >>>> So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th >>>> string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play >>>> that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below >>>> that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to >>>> the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with >>>> the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd >>>> string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch >>>> with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next >>>> string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is >>>> different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is >>>> the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are >>>> perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you >>>> will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with >>>> the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it >>>> with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way >>>> to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and >>>> play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the >>>> 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second >>>> fret e on the 3rd string. >>>> >>>> I hope this wasn't to confusing. >>>> >>>> thanks >>>> >>>> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >>>>> guitar, >>>>> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >>>>> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just >>>>> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >>>>> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >>>>> really >>>>> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would >>>>> like >>>>> to >>>>> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >>>>> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> 73 >>>> kd8qiq >>>> jeff crouch >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> > > > -- > Kaiti > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From andrewjedg at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 20:17:59 2013 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 15:17:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations Message-ID: Hi all I been trying to find answers to the following problem. a couple months or so ago I was listen to this one Christian radio station and some other things but for some reason now I can't tune in for some reason. when I go to the play link it says get adoby flash player I did update the flash player to flash 11 but it is still not playing at all. I am trying to figure out what the problem could be when I have latest adoby flash player. is there something else I need to update? I have windows 7 and I use jaws and things like that. would any of you have an idea what the problem could be has anybody ran into this before? From louvins at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 20:18:07 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 14:18:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover In-Reply-To: <97e1ab02609b4b51b2b8050441b2ce75@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <97e1ab02609b4b51b2b8050441b2ce75@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Joshua. Everyone has their own opinion when it comes to guitar strings. I've used Diederio strings myself. They do have a very nice sound, but the one's I had, were always getting out of tune very easily which drove me nuts. You can also get into differentstrings due to gadge . Such as light medium, or heavy. You can take the acoustic guitar as far or as little as you want. On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > That's an issue I also have with my guitar. > I need a new High E string, because that one always breaks on me! > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Joshua Hendrickson > [louvins at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:02 PM > To: Kaiti Shelton > Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is > Accessible with voiceover > > Caiti. I'm sure you wipe down your strings after you play. I do > that, and that also helps your strings to last longer. I've heard of > elixer strings. I'll have to go to guitar center and get some. I can > take my guitar strings off, but I don't know how to put them on. > > On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Also regarding strings; Martins do get a good sound, but there are a >> couple of other factors to consider. >> >> I use Elixyr strings because I play a lot, (nearly every day), so I >> want my strings to last. The Elixyrs sound pretty good, and have a >> special coating which resists wear and allows for the strings to be >> used longer. Whereas I used to change my strings twice a year without >> playing nearly as much as I do now, I've had these Elixyrs since last >> Christmas and they've just recently given out on me. >> >> If you're still a beginner longevity might not be a huge concern right >> now, but it may be something to think about in the future. >> >> On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I use fifth fret as well, and am beginning to tune with harmonics but >>> am not that great at it yet. Fifth fret tuning is definitely a skill >>> you should work on, but in order for it to work you need to make sure >>> your low E string is in tune first. >>> >>> The really nice thing about the pitch pipe app is that you can have >>> one tuner for all your musical needs on your phone; no buying guitar >>> tuners and having a separate chromatic one, or falling into the trap >>> of buying a tuner that only does guitar in the first place, as to me >>> that seems like kind of a scam and a waste of money. This way you can >>> check any note. You want to tune a guitar, this thing covers it; you >>> want to sing in a group and everyone needs a starting pitch, you've >>> got that too. >>> >>> I like using tuning forks for some things, but especially since I >>> carry a lot around I prefer the app because it's already on my phone. >>> It's also one less thing in my guitar case with my strings, capo, and >>> other stuff. >>> >>> On 11/8/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>>> Hi Jeff. I also use the fifth fret method as you do, but I use the >>>> tuning forks just in case. I always like to recheck my tuning. >>>> >>>> On 11/8/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, >>>>> i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. >>>>> So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th >>>>> string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play >>>>> that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below >>>>> that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to >>>>> the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with >>>>> the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd >>>>> string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch >>>>> with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next >>>>> string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is >>>>> different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is >>>>> the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are >>>>> perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you >>>>> will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with >>>>> the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it >>>>> with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way >>>>> to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and >>>>> play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the >>>>> 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second >>>>> fret e on the 3rd string. >>>>> >>>>> I hope this wasn't to confusing. >>>>> >>>>> thanks >>>>> >>>>> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: >>>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the >>>>>> guitar, >>>>>> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a >>>>>> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was >>>>>> just >>>>>> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me >>>>>> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will >>>>>> really >>>>>> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would >>>>>> like >>>>>> to >>>>>> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! >>>>>> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> 73 >>>>> kd8qiq >>>>> jeff crouch >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 8 20:24:27 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 20:24:27 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andrew, if you update to Flash 13, you shouldn't have any problem. 11's still outdated! If you want a good station, just go here! http://www.loudcity.com/stations/oldtimechristianradio There's a bunch of Southern Gospel, Bluegrass Gospel and old hymns here. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew [andrewjedg at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:17 PM To: nabs-l Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations Hi all I been trying to find answers to the following problem. a couple months or so ago I was listen to this one Christian radio station and some other things but for some reason now I can't tune in for some reason. when I go to the play link it says get adoby flash player I did update the flash player to flash 11 but it is still not playing at all. I am trying to figure out what the problem could be when I have latest adoby flash player. is there something else I need to update? I have windows 7 and I use jaws and things like that. would any of you have an idea what the problem could be has anybody ran into this before? _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From andrewjedg at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 20:31:01 2013 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 15:31:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Joshua where do I find flash player 13 I am running a windows 7 64 bit system. On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Andrew, if you update to Flash 13, you shouldn't have any problem. > 11's still outdated! > If you want a good station, just go here! > http://www.loudcity.com/stations/oldtimechristianradio > There's a bunch of Southern Gospel, Bluegrass Gospel and old hymns here. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew > [andrewjedg at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:17 PM > To: nabs-l > Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations > > Hi all > > I been trying to find answers to the following problem. > > a couple months or so ago I was listen to this one Christian radio > station and some other things but for some reason now I can't tune in > for some reason. when I go to the play link it says get adoby flash > player I did update the flash player to flash 11 but it is still not > playing at all. I am trying to figure out what the problem could be > when I have latest adoby flash player. is there something else I need > to update? I have windows 7 and I use jaws and things like that. > would any of you have an idea what the problem could be has anybody > ran into this before? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 8 20:33:46 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 20:33:46 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <9ad9bd2d562b48beb504ea961114a1e3@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> You need to update the computer then! Windows 7's outdated too. Forget Windows altogether, and get a Mac! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew [andrewjedg at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations Joshua where do I find flash player 13 I am running a windows 7 64 bit system. On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Andrew, if you update to Flash 13, you shouldn't have any problem. > 11's still outdated! > If you want a good station, just go here! > http://www.loudcity.com/stations/oldtimechristianradio > There's a bunch of Southern Gospel, Bluegrass Gospel and old hymns here. > Thanks, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew > [andrewjedg at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:17 PM > To: nabs-l > Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations > > Hi all > > I been trying to find answers to the following problem. > > a couple months or so ago I was listen to this one Christian radio > station and some other things but for some reason now I can't tune in > for some reason. when I go to the play link it says get adoby flash > player I did update the flash player to flash 11 but it is still not > playing at all. I am trying to figure out what the problem could be > when I have latest adoby flash player. is there something else I need > to update? I have windows 7 and I use jaws and things like that. > would any of you have an idea what the problem could be has anybody > ran into this before? > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From andrewjedg at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 20:37:06 2013 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 15:37:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations In-Reply-To: <9ad9bd2d562b48beb504ea961114a1e3@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <9ad9bd2d562b48beb504ea961114a1e3@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: macks cost so much more though I will stay with windows instead of learning a whole new system at this time. On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > You need to update the computer then! > Windows 7's outdated too. > Forget Windows altogether, and get a Mac! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew > [andrewjedg at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:31 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations > > Joshua where do I find flash player 13 I am running a windows 7 64 bit > system. > > On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Andrew, if you update to Flash 13, you shouldn't have any problem. >> 11's still outdated! >> If you want a good station, just go here! >> http://www.loudcity.com/stations/oldtimechristianradio >> There's a bunch of Southern Gospel, Bluegrass Gospel and old hymns here. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew >> [andrewjedg at gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:17 PM >> To: nabs-l >> Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations >> >> Hi all >> >> I been trying to find answers to the following problem. >> >> a couple months or so ago I was listen to this one Christian radio >> station and some other things but for some reason now I can't tune in >> for some reason. when I go to the play link it says get adoby flash >> player I did update the flash player to flash 11 but it is still not >> playing at all. I am trying to figure out what the problem could be >> when I have latest adoby flash player. is there something else I need >> to update? I have windows 7 and I use jaws and things like that. >> would any of you have an idea what the problem could be has anybody >> ran into this before? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > From steve.jacobson at visi.com Fri Nov 8 20:53:32 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2013 14:53:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations In-Reply-To: <9ad9bd2d562b48beb504ea961114a1e3@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Slow down a little, Windows 7 will be supported for a good while yet, there is no particular advantage to upgrading to Windows 8 at this point if Windows 7 is working. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Fri, 8 Nov 2013 20:33:46 +0000, Joshua Lester wrote: >You need to update the computer then! >Windows 7's outdated too. >Forget Windows altogether, and get a Mac! >Blessings, Joshua >________________________________________ >From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew [andrewjedg at gmail.com] >Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:31 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations >Joshua where do I find flash player 13 I am running a windows 7 64 bit system. >On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Andrew, if you update to Flash 13, you shouldn't have any problem. >> 11's still outdated! >> If you want a good station, just go here! >> http://www.loudcity.com/stations/oldtimechristianradio >> There's a bunch of Southern Gospel, Bluegrass Gospel and old hymns here. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew >> [andrewjedg at gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:17 PM >> To: nabs-l >> Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations >> >> Hi all >> >> I been trying to find answers to the following problem. >> >> a couple months or so ago I was listen to this one Christian radio >> station and some other things but for some reason now I can't tune in >> for some reason. when I go to the play link it says get adoby flash >> player I did update the flash player to flash 11 but it is still not >> playing at all. I am trying to figure out what the problem could be >> when I have latest adoby flash player. is there something else I need >> to update? I have windows 7 and I use jaws and things like that. >> would any of you have an idea what the problem could be has anybody >> ran into this before? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 21:05:20 2013 From: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com (Ryan) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 14:05:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20914117-00F8-4E90-871B-2F356062BB3A@gmail.com> Andrew, As soon as I get home, I'll send u the link for flash 13 Ryan Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 8, 2013, at 13:53, "Steve Jacobson" wrote: > > Slow down a little, Windows 7 will be supported for a good while yet, there is no particular advantage to > upgrading to Windows 8 at this point if Windows 7 is working. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > >> On Fri, 8 Nov 2013 20:33:46 +0000, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> You need to update the computer then! >> Windows 7's outdated too. >> Forget Windows altogether, and get a Mac! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew [andrewjedg at gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:31 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations > >> Joshua where do I find flash player 13 I am running a windows 7 64 bit system. > >>> On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Andrew, if you update to Flash 13, you shouldn't have any problem. >>> 11's still outdated! >>> If you want a good station, just go here! >>> http://www.loudcity.com/stations/oldtimechristianradio >>> There's a bunch of Southern Gospel, Bluegrass Gospel and old hymns here. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew >>> [andrewjedg at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:17 PM >>> To: nabs-l >>> Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations >>> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I been trying to find answers to the following problem. >>> >>> a couple months or so ago I was listen to this one Christian radio >>> station and some other things but for some reason now I can't tune in >>> for some reason. when I go to the play link it says get adoby flash >>> player I did update the flash player to flash 11 but it is still not >>> playing at all. I am trying to figure out what the problem could be >>> when I have latest adoby flash player. is there something else I need >>> to update? I have windows 7 and I use jaws and things like that. >>> would any of you have an idea what the problem could be has anybody >>> ran into this before? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Fri Nov 8 23:01:12 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 18:01:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] capsha solver questions In-Reply-To: <000d01cedc97$5fb08760$1f119620$@gmail.com> References: <000d01cedc97$5fb08760$1f119620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Rumola is another effective solution for Safari. You do have to create an account and it costs a little bit, but it is well worth the hassle. If I remember correctly, it is $0.99 for 60 solutions or something like that. Very cheap and very fast. Do a search for it and their website will explain more. Best, Greg On Nov 8, 2013, at 10:29 AM, "ryan bishop" wrote: > Hi Jeff, > If your able to get Firefox I would recommend getting WebVism. Write me off > list and I can send you a referral if you want. It will allow you to solve > captias in one click. > Ryan > > > Ryan Bishop > Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com > 480-221-5195 > Secretary > Arizona Association of blind students > http://az.nfb.org/aabs > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona > http://az.nfb.org > > The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is > the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind person > has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical nuisance. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Crouch > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 8:22 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] capsha solver questions > > Hi all, > Jeff here, i am using a mac book pro, with safary, and i am running in to > lots of capshas and i don't know how to get around them, i don't have > sighted assistance, and as you all are aware of the audio is uncopible. If > anyone has any sajustions on what i should do, please let me know. > > thanks > > -- > 73 > k8tvv > jeff crouch > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co > m > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 01:34:07 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2013 20:34:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations In-Reply-To: References: <9ad9bd2d562b48beb504ea961114a1e3@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I also like to listen to a Christian radio Station. The name of my radio station is called 88.1 Way Fm. This radio station has a website as well, the website is wayfm.com, in order to stream the radio alive. It has many variety of music, and I really like it a lot! By the way, do you have an iPhone? If you do, you can download the radio ap from the ap store. It is actually free! Let me know what do you think about it? Thanks and God bless!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 3:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations macks cost so much more though I will stay with windows instead of learning a whole new system at this time. On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > You need to update the computer then! > Windows 7's outdated too. > Forget Windows altogether, and get a Mac! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew > [andrewjedg at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:31 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations > > Joshua where do I find flash player 13 I am running a windows 7 64 bit > system. > > On 11/8/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Andrew, if you update to Flash 13, you shouldn't have any problem. >> 11's still outdated! >> If you want a good station, just go here! >> http://www.loudcity.com/stations/oldtimechristianradio >> There's a bunch of Southern Gospel, Bluegrass Gospel and old hymns here. >> Thanks, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Andrew >> [andrewjedg at gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:17 PM >> To: nabs-l >> Subject: [nabs-l] problem with tuning into some radio stations >> >> Hi all >> >> I been trying to find answers to the following problem. >> >> a couple months or so ago I was listen to this one Christian radio >> station and some other things but for some reason now I can't tune in >> for some reason. when I go to the play link it says get adoby flash >> player I did update the flash player to flash 11 but it is still not >> playing at all. I am trying to figure out what the problem could be >> when I have latest adoby flash player. is there something else I need >> to update? I have windows 7 and I use jaws and things like that. >> would any of you have an idea what the problem could be has anybody >> ran into this before? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From i.c.bray at win.net Sat Nov 9 11:32:59 2013 From: i.c.bray at win.net (I. C. Bray) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 06:32:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover References: , <97e1ab02609b4b51b2b8050441b2ce75@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <9EAACE54ECAD4FCFA527D238195FB1B9@JAWS> I stopped playing guitar because #1, I suck. #2, I read braille left handed. However, I know of a couple of people who mix & match strings -- especially high E ( #1 ) strings. Their reason is that they get a slightly thicker gauge as it will stretch less, and lasts longer. Do any of you use a spray called "Finger Ease?" I'm not sure what's in it, but I used it to condition my fretboard & it seemed to keep strings dry and nice! Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: ; "National Association of BlindStudents mailing list" Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover : That's an issue I also have with my guitar. : I need a new High E string, because that one always breaks on me! : Thanks, Joshua : ________________________________________ : From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Joshua Hendrickson [louvins at gmail.com] : Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 2:02 PM : To: Kaiti Shelton : Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list : Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Tuner ap, in order to tune my guitar, that is Accessible with voiceover : : Caiti. I'm sure you wipe down your strings after you play. I do : that, and that also helps your strings to last longer. I've heard of : elixer strings. I'll have to go to guitar center and get some. I can : take my guitar strings off, but I don't know how to put them on. : : On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: : > Also regarding strings; Martins do get a good sound, but there are a : > couple of other factors to consider. : > : > I use Elixyr strings because I play a lot, (nearly every day), so I : > want my strings to last. The Elixyrs sound pretty good, and have a : > special coating which resists wear and allows for the strings to be : > used longer. Whereas I used to change my strings twice a year without : > playing nearly as much as I do now, I've had these Elixyrs since last : > Christmas and they've just recently given out on me. : > : > If you're still a beginner longevity might not be a huge concern right : > now, but it may be something to think about in the future. : > : > On 11/8/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: : >> Hi all, : >> : >> I use fifth fret as well, and am beginning to tune with harmonics but : >> am not that great at it yet. Fifth fret tuning is definitely a skill : >> you should work on, but in order for it to work you need to make sure : >> your low E string is in tune first. : >> : >> The really nice thing about the pitch pipe app is that you can have : >> one tuner for all your musical needs on your phone; no buying guitar : >> tuners and having a separate chromatic one, or falling into the trap : >> of buying a tuner that only does guitar in the first place, as to me : >> that seems like kind of a scam and a waste of money. This way you can : >> check any note. You want to tune a guitar, this thing covers it; you : >> want to sing in a group and everyone needs a starting pitch, you've : >> got that too. : >> : >> I like using tuning forks for some things, but especially since I : >> carry a lot around I prefer the app because it's already on my phone. : >> It's also one less thing in my guitar case with my strings, capo, and : >> other stuff. : >> : >> On 11/8/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: : >>> Hi Jeff. I also use the fifth fret method as you do, but I use the : >>> tuning forks just in case. I always like to recheck my tuning. : >>> : >>> On 11/8/13, Jeff Crouch wrote: : >>>> Hi, : >>>> I use the good old methid of what they call the fifth fret tuning, : >>>> i've ben playing guitar for 19 years now, and am pretty good at it. : >>>> So what you want to do is on the low E string or refird to as the 6th : >>>> string, the thickest string, you will want to go to fret 5, and play : >>>> that fret, that fret will aline with the a string or the string below : >>>> that, once you have made both of thoughs pitches pirfict, you go to : >>>> the 5th fret of the a or second string, the pitch will match up with : >>>> the third string d, once thoughes are tuned, you will go to the 3rd : >>>> string the d string and play the 5th fret, it will line up in pitch : >>>> with the 4th string, once this is tuned, you will go to the next : >>>> string being string 4 or the g string, now this is ware it is : >>>> different, insted of playing the 5th fret on te 4th string which is : >>>> the g string, you will play the 4th fret, and once these tones are : >>>> perfict, you move to the 5th string also known as the b string, you : >>>> will go back to the 5th fret, and once these string is in pitch with : >>>> the high e string you will play the high string e open and play it : >>>> with the bottom e string, and match them up to eachother, another way : >>>> to make sure that the e strings are right is to go to the d string and : >>>> play at the second fret this will be the e note but on the d or the : >>>> 3rd string. and match the high e up with the bottom e using the second : >>>> fret e on the 3rd string. : >>>> : >>>> I hope this wasn't to confusing. : >>>> : >>>> thanks : >>>> : >>>> On 11/7/13, Helga Schreiber wrote: : >>>>> Hi guys, this is Helga. I just wanted to tell you that I Play the : >>>>> guitar, : >>>>> and I just wanted to ask you, do you guys know, where can I find a : >>>>> accessible tuner ap that works with Voiceover on my iPhone? I was just : >>>>> wondering, since my friends and my brother are the ones that help me : >>>>> sometimes whenever they have a chance to tune my guitar. I will : >>>>> really : >>>>> appreciate it, if you could give me some suggestions, since I would : >>>>> like : >>>>> to : >>>>> learn how to tune my guitar! Thanks so much and God bless! : >>>>> P.S. Does anybody here play the guitar? Just curious! as well! : >>>>> _______________________________________________ : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >>>>> nabs-l: : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com : >>>>> : >>>> : >>>> : >>>> -- : >>>> 73 : >>>> kd8qiq : >>>> jeff crouch : >>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ : >>>> nabs-l mailing list : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >>>> nabs-l: : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com : >>>> : >>> : >>> _______________________________________________ : >>> nabs-l mailing list : >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >>> nabs-l: : >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com : >>> : >> : >> : >> -- : >> Kaiti : >> : > : > : > -- : > Kaiti : > : : _______________________________________________ : nabs-l mailing list : nabs-l at nfbnet.org : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com : : _______________________________________________ : nabs-l mailing list : nabs-l at nfbnet.org : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Nov 9 16:28:31 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 09:28:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] pdf's read aloud in acrobat speech rate issue Message-ID: I normally use zoom but decided I want to use speech output for some of my texts. I am using acrobat professional x on Mac OS Mavericks. I tried to change the speech rate in the preferences menu and it does not seem to change it at all. The default was 220. I set it to 500 and hear no difference. Do I need to change any other settings. I do not have mac voice over enabled. Thank you From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sat Nov 9 18:56:43 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 12:56:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] News features blind family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Our local ABC news featured Declan, Ross and myself on the ten o' clock news last night. It was for Diabetes Awareness Week, but it inevitably focused on blindness as well. They did a really good job with the story. Here's the link for anyone interested: http://www.ketv.com/news/local-news/blind-couple-overcomes-challenges-ra ising-son/-/9674510/22880666/-/of07u1/-/index.html Bridgit Pollpeter From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 21:30:13 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 14:30:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [Arizona-students] pdf's read aloud in acrobat speech rate issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Suzanne, I don't know much about the ReadAloud feature, but suspect you will have more control over the speech if you enable VoiceOver on your device. You can turn it on by pressing Command+F5, I believe. Best, Arielle On 11/9/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > I normally use zoom but decided I want to use speech output for some of my > texts. > > I am using acrobat professional x on Mac OS Mavericks. > > I tried to change the speech rate in the preferences menu and it does not > seem to change it at all. The default was 220. I set it to 500 and hear no > difference. Do I need to change any other settings. I do not have mac voice > over enabled. > > Thank you > _______________________________________________ > Arizona-students mailing list > Arizona-students at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/arizona-students_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > Arizona-students: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/arizona-students_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Nov 9 23:33:55 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 18:33:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Question Message-ID: <288d01cedda4$28ac7950$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Does any one know of a good twitter client? RJ From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sat Nov 9 23:40:20 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 23:40:20 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Question In-Reply-To: <288d01cedda4$28ac7950$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <288d01cedda4$28ac7950$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: What's wrong with the current client you're using? Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of RJ Sandefur [joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 5:33 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Question Does any one know of a good twitter client? RJ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From jeffanel at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 00:17:41 2013 From: jeffanel at gmail.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 19:17:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Question In-Reply-To: <288d01cedda4$28ac7950$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <288d01cedda4$28ac7950$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Hello, For windows you can use the cube, and for mac, you can use yorufukrou, both of which are a free program. On 11/9/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Does any one know of a good twitter client? RJ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com > -- 73 kd8qiq jeff crouch From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Nov 10 00:42:09 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 17:42:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [Arizona-students] pdf's read aloud in acrobat speech rate issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok thanks Arielle. I'll give that a try. I have just never used voice over so don't knwo all the in's and outs of having it read just a document. On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Suzanne, > > I don't know much about the ReadAloud feature, but suspect you will > have more control over the speech if you enable VoiceOver on your > device. You can turn it on by pressing Command+F5, I believe. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/9/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > I normally use zoom but decided I want to use speech output for some of > my > > texts. > > > > I am using acrobat professional x on Mac OS Mavericks. > > > > I tried to change the speech rate in the preferences menu and it does not > > seem to change it at all. The default was 220. I set it to 500 and hear > no > > difference. Do I need to change any other settings. I do not have mac > voice > > over enabled. > > > > Thank you > > _______________________________________________ > > Arizona-students mailing list > > Arizona-students at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/arizona-students_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > Arizona-students: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/arizona-students_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 00:43:52 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 19:43:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Question In-Reply-To: <288d01cedda4$28ac7950$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <288d01cedda4$28ac7950$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <27c901ceddad$ee523a10$caf6ae30$@gmail.com> I saw something at the convention called amaze. I don't know if amaze is the same thing as a client, but I think the web iste is www.amaze.org. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 6:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Question Does any one know of a good twitter client? RJ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 03:29:31 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 22:29:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Question In-Reply-To: <27c901ceddad$ee523a10$caf6ae30$@gmail.com> References: <288d01cedda4$28ac7950$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <27c901ceddad$ee523a10$caf6ae30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, I don't use Twitter, but I've also heard of Quitter and Chicken Nugget. I've also heard of Miranda which is an all-in-one social media client if you want to run multiple social media accounts in one program. Hope this helps. On 11/9/13, justin williams wrote: > I saw something at the convention called amaze. I don't know if amaze is > the same thing as a client, but I think the web iste is www.amaze.org. > Someone please correct me if I am wrong. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur > Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2013 6:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Question > > Does any one know of a good twitter client? RJ > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From lizzym0827 at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 15:44:19 2013 From: lizzym0827 at gmail.com (lizzy) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 10:44:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Message-ID: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Hi All, I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Lizzy From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 16:29:32 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 10:29:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Message-ID: <527fb484.0416ec0a.3a13.ffff90ed@mx.google.com> Lizzy, I would bring your dog with you. If this is your number one school, and if it's highly likely you'll be going there next year, people there should get used to you having a dog. I would not worry about someone being offended by you having your dog. ----- Original Message ----- From: lizzy Hello, Is anyone using one of the NFB's telescopic canes? If so, how have your tips faired? I recently bought one where the tip became detached, and I see no easy way of making it stick short of using heavy glue, which almost becomes counterproductive when it comes to replacing it. I wish whomever was producing the previous models would come back. These latter models are comparatively crappy. I did take a chance on an Ambutec model, and although it is more durable, the length completely defeats the purpose of portability. I was told it would collapse in three pieces. It only collapses in a rough half. Anyway, I digress. If I'm completely ignorant on the proper maintenance of the NFB telescopic cane tips, by all means let me know. Joe From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Nov 10 17:56:52 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:56:52 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I wouldn't take the dog, since you still have parents at home and they can feed and take care of her. Just use the cane. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of lizzy [lizzym0827 at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi All, I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Lizzy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Nov 10 18:01:11 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 13:01:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <527FC9E7.9030101@tysdomain.com> I would take her, because it would be a great experience for you all. Josh's idea of stashing the dog at home like an extra cane is pretty typical, however. Here are a few things that may help. first, just get in touch with the coordenator and have them ask your roommate if they're cool with dogs. Most people are and you could always put her on tiedown (using the bed post or something). Second, make sure you bring ample food, especially if you use treats. While she may be having a hard time adapting, it'd be a really really good time to start. While she may follow often--you could even heel her and do sighted guide. Basically it's a good time for you two to work together and get used to being at a college, and there's no better time to start! On 11/10/2013 12:56 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > I wouldn't take the dog, since you still have parents at home and they can feed and take care of her. > Just use the cane. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of lizzy [lizzym0827 at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:44 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, > but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in > high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first > over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To > all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a > half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair > and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that > I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions > about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually > been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not > sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over > campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically > she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in > new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her > look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with > a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who > doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a > correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any > accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since > I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there > anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give > would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From sparklylicious at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 18:08:07 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 10:08:07 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <00f601cede3f$d0775330$7165f990$@gmail.com> Joshua, Just a quick note. When you get a guide dog, it's entirely your responsibility. You have to feed, relieve and play with your dog. Your guide dog is working for you and no one else, therefore you cannot expect other people to take care of him/her. Lizzy may want to take her dog because she will be going to that college next year and this would be a great time for her dog to be introduced to the new environment. College campuses can be very confusing so any exposure would be fantastic prior to moving in to the dorms or wherever she is planning on living. Or, she might just want to leave her dog at home since her dog has some distractions to work on and it's only for one day. My point is, as guide dog users, we can't have the mindset of someone else can take care of my dog so I'll just use my cane today. Plus, when we go off to college and our mommys and daddys aren't around, then who would take care of our dogs? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:57 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I wouldn't take the dog, since you still have parents at home and they can feed and take care of her. Just use the cane. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of lizzy [lizzym0827 at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi All, I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Lizzy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Nov 10 18:11:29 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 11:11:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: If you chose to take the dog I would tell them. That way they can be sure to room you with someone who does not have a dog allergy. On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 10:56 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > I wouldn't take the dog, since you still have parents at home and they can > feed and take care of her. > Just use the cane. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of lizzy [ > lizzym0827 at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:44 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, > but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in > high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first > over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To > all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a > half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair > and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that > I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions > about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually > been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not > sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over > campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically > she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in > new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her > look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with > a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who > doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a > correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any > accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since > I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there > anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give > would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 10 19:20:18 2013 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 14:20:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <0CF89725-6A81-4DA5-BEB9-9A9499E394F8@yahoo.com> Lizzy, Hello, I think everyone is giving you the right advice. But I don't have a guide dog so I can't participate in that part of the conversation. But I definitely think you should ask for accommodations because you never know what kind of materials they are going to provide that you will need to access so you can learn more about your school. Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:44 AM, lizzy wrote: > > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 20:16:49 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 14:16:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <0CF89725-6A81-4DA5-BEB9-9A9499E394F8@yahoo.com> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <0CF89725-6A81-4DA5-BEB9-9A9499E394F8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Lizzy, I agree with what most everyone has said. You should bring the dog. Here are my reasons: People need to get used to you having the dog, and you should get used to their reactions: You may do other college visits, interviews, retreats, etc in your life, and you may be concerned about reactions to the dog. It is good to get into the habbit of taking the dog to these things so that you and the dog can work on navigating new environments together. She(or he) is your mobility tool, and people need to understand that. You also should know that throughout your life as a guide dog user, you will encounter people who don't like you correcting your dog. It has happened to me, and it will probably happen again. As long as you correct quietly, give lots of praise when it's earned, and use positive reinforcement when you can, I think you will be fine. You have a new dog. People should understand this. If the dog does something bad(sniffing, going after food), just smile, and say that the dog is new and likes to test you. That is quite normal, and most sighted people think it's funny or cute. But seriously, for the most part, that is what your dog is probably doing. You need to give him/her the boundaries she/he needs to sement your bond together. So I think it would help you to take the dog to help your bond as a team. Like others have said, if this is your top choice school, you might want to see how they react to the dog before you make your choice to go there. I wouldn't want to go to a school where all my professors were uncomfortable with me having a dog in the classroom, for example. I doubt this would happen, but you never know. Finally, in terms of accomidations, I would talk to the people with whom you will be interviewing and working, just in case they have handouts. You should do this for two reasons: to see how they react to accomidating you(Do they promise to give you things and then never deliver? Do they refuse completely, send you to disability services and refuse to work with you themselves?). You want to know how willing people at this university are to work with you. Also, this place will be where you spend the next four years of your life. You don't want to be left out of any information given. You should be as prepared as everyone else is to make your decision. Hope this helps, and feel free to email me off list with other questions. On 11/10/13, Bobbi Pompey wrote: > Lizzy, > > Hello, I think everyone is giving you the right advice. But I don't have a > guide dog so I can't participate in that part of the conversation. But I > definitely think you should ask for accommodations because you never know > what kind of materials they are going to provide that you will need to > access so you can learn more about your school. > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:44 AM, lizzy wrote: >> >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 10 20:53:35 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:53:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Lizzy, I agree with Joshua. I'm a cane user btw. You seem unsure of handling your new dog in a new environment. I would leave your dog at home and let your family care for him or her. It’s a brief time so it should not mess up any working time you have. I think it will be less stressful and easier for you to navigate the campus with just your cane. You can have more tactile contact with surfaces then. You'd also have to plan to take your dog out to relieve him or herself and you don't know where that is. I would also be concerned about what you said regarding the dog's behavior. Remember you want to present a good professional appearance. Points are that: 1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are meeting all new very important people. 2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a distraction in such a situation when visiting a class. 3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. 4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. I have to say that I've seen new guide dogs act like you describe and it bothers me. I want to enjoy myself especially if I'm at a restaurant. But when I have dogs sniffing or licking me, its offensive. I do not! want to have dog saliva on me when food is around. I do not want it on me if I cannot wash my hands. I do not want dogs rubbing against me because it can get dog hair on my slacks when I'm out and the dog hair shows. Now, do I like dogs? Yes, yes. I like dogs to play with in the yard or at a house when I'm dressed down. But when I'm dressed in slacks and a nice blouse, the last thing I want if a sniffy dog at my side or a dog licking me. There are plenty other times to work with and train your dog without going to the campus with her at this time. I think you two need to work together more and you have a chance to train and correct her so she exhibits more of a guide dog behavior. So, I'd keep the dog home. You can always revisit campus with your dog if you decide to go there. Speaking from experience, I find it offensive when guide dogs lick me. Now, if they are off harness its fine; they are just a dog then and not working. But when in the harness, I expect them not to bother me. Finally, if you choose to take your pooch, tell the campus. You should be in a room with someone who isn't alergic to dogs. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: lizzy Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi All, I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Lizzy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 10 21:00:08 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 15:00:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <001101cede57$d72acaf0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon Ashley and everyone, If the person in question cannot handle their dog especially in new situations one wonders how they managed to graduate from guide dog training. If the guide dog program had done its job well its students should leave being able to handle their dogs in new situations with ease. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Lizzy, I agree with Joshua. I'm a cane user btw. You seem unsure of handling your new dog in a new environment. I would leave your dog at home and let your family care for him or her. It’s a brief time so it should not mess up any working time you have. I think it will be less stressful and easier for you to navigate the campus with just your cane. You can have more tactile contact with surfaces then. You'd also have to plan to take your dog out to relieve him or herself and you don't know where that is. I would also be concerned about what you said regarding the dog's behavior. Remember you want to present a good professional appearance. Points are that: 1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are meeting all new very important people. 2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a distraction in such a situation when visiting a class. 3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. 4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. I have to say that I've seen new guide dogs act like you describe and it bothers me. I want to enjoy myself especially if I'm at a restaurant. But when I have dogs sniffing or licking me, its offensive. I do not! want to have dog saliva on me when food is around. I do not want it on me if I cannot wash my hands. I do not want dogs rubbing against me because it can get dog hair on my slacks when I'm out and the dog hair shows. Now, do I like dogs? Yes, yes. I like dogs to play with in the yard or at a house when I'm dressed down. But when I'm dressed in slacks and a nice blouse, the last thing I want if a sniffy dog at my side or a dog licking me. There are plenty other times to work with and train your dog without going to the campus with her at this time. I think you two need to work together more and you have a chance to train and correct her so she exhibits more of a guide dog behavior. So, I'd keep the dog home. You can always revisit campus with your dog if you decide to go there. Speaking from experience, I find it offensive when guide dogs lick me. Now, if they are off harness its fine; they are just a dog then and not working. But when in the harness, I expect them not to bother me. Finally, if you choose to take your pooch, tell the campus. You should be in a room with someone who isn't alergic to dogs. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: lizzy Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi All, I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Lizzy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Nov 10 21:01:30 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:01:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <527FF42A.9060804@tysdomain.com> I'm going to respond to this, but I believe this yet again is a case of someone with no training with a guide spouting off. If you have suggestions, it helps, but lots of random conclusions don't help. >1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are meeting all new very important people. And she will continue to meet good people. It isn't uncommon for dogs to get excited around new people, and this won't go away for a while. It's something Lizzy as the handler has to deal with. most people don't mind, and usually you can just get your guide to sit and life is good. >2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a distraction in such a situation when visiting a class. how so? While she might be sniffy and excited, the guide will settle easily in a class. It's also a really good idea to get her used to doing it! >3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. Dogs are always sniffy, no matter what. It's something you get used to and deal with. >4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. If someone gets offended because I have a dog, they can always feel free to leave. I personally could not care less, and neither should anyone else. If your dog is calm, well behaved and obediant, there is no problem what so ever. Lizzy will continue to meet new important people all the time, and stashing her guide at home and letting someone else handle the responsibility of taking care of the guide is probably not the best way to go. These important presidents she will be meeting will not need to come in contact with the dog, and thus they won't get any of that pesky dangerous fur on their clothing! Also, most dogs are trained to lie down while the handler eats, so the dog won't be up in someone's business sniffing at their food, either. It will also not be all that hard to find a patch of grass and a trashcan. I've been to at least three different colleges and they're pretty easy to locate. There will be someone running the orientation or even a group leader, who lizzy could ask for help finding a spot. Similarly, she could just ask her parents when they drop her off, if they do or if there is a chance. On 11/10/2013 3:53 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Lizzy, > > I agree with Joshua. I'm a cane user btw. > You seem unsure of handling your new dog in a new environment. > I would leave your dog at home and let your family care for him or her. > It’s a brief time so it should not mess up > any working time you have. > > I think it will be less stressful and easier for you to navigate the > campus with just your cane. You can have more tactile contact with > surfaces then. You'd also have to plan to take your dog out to relieve > him or herself and you don't know where that is. > > I would also be concerned about what you said regarding the dog's > behavior. Remember you want to present a good professional appearance. > Points are that: > 1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are > meeting all new very important people. > 2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a > distraction in such a situation when visiting a class. > 3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. > 4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. > > I have to say that I've seen new guide dogs act like you describe and > it bothers me. I want to enjoy myself especially if I'm at a > restaurant. But when I have dogs sniffing or licking me, its > offensive. I do not! want to have dog saliva on me when food is > around. I do not want it on me if I cannot wash my hands. I do not > want dogs rubbing against me because it can get dog hair on my slacks > when I'm out and the dog hair shows. > Now, do I like dogs? Yes, yes. I like dogs to play with in the yard or > at a house when I'm dressed down. But when I'm dressed in slacks and a > nice blouse, the last thing I want if a sniffy dog at my side or a dog > licking me. > > There are plenty other times to work with and train your dog without > going to the campus with her at this time. > I think you two need to work together more and you have a chance to > train and correct her so she exhibits more of a guide dog behavior. > So, I'd keep the dog home. You can always revisit > campus with your dog if you decide to go there. > > Speaking from experience, I find it offensive when guide dogs lick me. > Now, if they are off harness its fine; they are just a dog then and > not working. But when in the harness, I expect them not to bother me. > > Finally, if you choose to take your pooch, tell the campus. You should > be in a room with someone who isn't alergic to dogs. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- From: lizzy > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, > but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in > high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first > over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To > all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a > half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair > and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that > I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions > about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually > been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not > sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over > campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically > she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in > new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her > look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with > a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who > doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a > correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any > accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since > I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there > anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give > would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Nov 10 21:01:56 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:01:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <001101cede57$d72acaf0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <001101cede57$d72acaf0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <527FF444.1050208@tysdomain.com> Peter, have you ever had a guide? On 11/10/2013 4:00 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Good afternoon Ashley and everyone, > > If the person in question cannot handle their dog especially in new > situations one wonders how they managed to graduate from guide dog training. > If the guide dog program had done its job well its students should leave > being able to handle their dogs in new situations with ease. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:53 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > Lizzy, > > I agree with Joshua. I'm a cane user btw. > You seem unsure of handling your new dog in a new environment. > I would leave your dog at home and let your family care for him or her. > It’s a brief time so it should not mess up > any working time you have. > > I think it will be less stressful and easier for you to navigate the campus > with just your cane. You can have more tactile contact with surfaces then. > You'd also have to plan to take your dog out to relieve him or herself and > you don't know where that is. > > I would also be concerned about what you said regarding the dog's behavior. > Remember you want to present a good professional appearance. Points are > that: > 1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are meeting > all new very important people. > 2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a distraction in > such a situation when visiting a class. > 3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. > 4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. > > I have to say that I've seen new guide dogs act like you describe and it > bothers me. I want to enjoy myself especially if I'm at a restaurant. But > when I have dogs sniffing or licking me, its offensive. I do not! want to > have dog saliva on me when food is around. I do not want it on me if I > cannot wash my hands. I do not want dogs rubbing against me because it can > get dog hair on my slacks when I'm out and the dog hair shows. > Now, do I like dogs? Yes, yes. I like dogs to play with in the yard or at a > house when I'm dressed down. But when I'm dressed in slacks and a nice > blouse, the last thing I want if a sniffy dog at my side or a dog licking > me. > > There are plenty other times to work with and train your dog without going > to the campus with her at this time. > I think you two need to work together more and you have a chance to train > and correct her so she exhibits more of a guide dog behavior. > So, I'd keep the dog home. You can always revisit > campus with your dog if you decide to go there. > > Speaking from experience, I find it offensive when guide dogs lick me. Now, > if they are off harness its fine; they are just a dog then and not working. > But when in the harness, I expect them not to bother me. > > Finally, if you choose to take your pooch, tell the campus. You should be in > a room with someone who isn't alergic to dogs. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lizzy > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, > but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in > high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first > over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To > all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a > half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair > and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that > I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions > about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually > been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not > sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over > campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically > she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in > new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her > look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with > a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who > doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a > correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any > accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since > I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there > anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give > would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From kramc11 at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 21:11:40 2013 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:11:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi, Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from when giving advice. Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student. My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said, you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. Feel free to email me off list Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "lizzy" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I > am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not > for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at > my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my > lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if > it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons > are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've > taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a > specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or > not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is > very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make > her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an > interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current > student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or > vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I > haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll > need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the > dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 10 22:21:42 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:21:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> Mark, I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or exhibit other behavior she mentioned. I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you might think again. I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I mention barks? Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes responsibility. I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have a guide dog. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mark J. Cadigan Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi, Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from when giving advice. Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student. My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said, you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. Feel free to email me off list Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "lizzy" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I > am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not > for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at > my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my > lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if > it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons > are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've > taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a > specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or > not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is > very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make > her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an > interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current > student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or > vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I > haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll > need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the > dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Nov 10 22:32:50 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:32:50 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> , <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Great post, Ashley! Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or roam around the room, when not being handled? That has happened way too much where I'm from! Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the Blind! Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Mark, I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or exhibit other behavior she mentioned. I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you might think again. I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I mention barks? Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes responsibility. I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have a guide dog. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mark J. Cadigan Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi, Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from when giving advice. Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student. My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said, you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. Feel free to email me off list Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "lizzy" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I > am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not > for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at > my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my > lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if > it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons > are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've > taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a > specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or > not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is > very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make > her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an > interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current > student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or > vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I > haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll > need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the > dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 10 22:40:01 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:40:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com>, <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <460BF776499746868E2AACDD3C2F5635@OwnerPC> Josh, Oh my goodness! You saw dogs relieving themselves in wrong places? Holy cow! I'd be so mad if I stepped in that stuff and it was not outside, I'd threaten to sue the handler. They have the responsibility to take their dog outside to do its business and clean it up. They need to clean up dog mess if it has an accident. What is your email address so we can write off list? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Great post, Ashley! Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or roam around the room, when not being handled? That has happened way too much where I'm from! Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the Blind! Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Mark, I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or exhibit other behavior she mentioned. I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you might think again. I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I mention barks? Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes responsibility. I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have a guide dog. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mark J. Cadigan Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi, Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from when giving advice. Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student. My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said, you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. Feel free to email me off list Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "lizzy" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I > am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not > for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at > my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my > lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if > it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons > are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've > taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a > specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or > not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is > very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make > her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an > interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current > student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or > vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I > haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll > need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the > dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 10 22:49:37 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:49:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><001101cede57$d72acaf0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <527FF444.1050208@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <001501cede67$2392e3f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, I have had four guide dogs including two from The Seeing Eye. None of the guide dog programs I have had experience with measure up to my standards of what a quality guide dog training program should be and what it should expect of its teams when they leave. I've observed many of the same problems others spoke of on this list. I and others believe that many of them could have been addressed in training. It's for this reason that unless I find myself traveling more in the future I have serious doubts about whether I'll seek a replacement for my current dog Johnny when he retires. One thing that would change my mind about going all cane is if the NFB were to start its own guide dog program. Lizzie's situation is a symptom of an underlying problem with every last guide dog program in this country! As a consumer of services for the blind I'll set my standards and expect those from whom I seek such services including guide dog training schools to meet or exceed them and urge others to do the same. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Peter, have you ever had a guide? On 11/10/2013 4:00 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Good afternoon Ashley and everyone, > > If the person in question cannot handle their dog especially in new > situations one wonders how they managed to graduate from guide dog > training. > If the guide dog program had done its job well its students should leave > being able to handle their dogs in new situations with ease. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:53 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > Lizzy, > > I agree with Joshua. I'm a cane user btw. > You seem unsure of handling your new dog in a new environment. > I would leave your dog at home and let your family care for him or her. > It’s a brief time so it should not mess up > any working time you have. > > I think it will be less stressful and easier for you to navigate the > campus > with just your cane. You can have more tactile contact with surfaces then. > You'd also have to plan to take your dog out to relieve him or herself and > you don't know where that is. > > I would also be concerned about what you said regarding the dog's > behavior. > Remember you want to present a good professional appearance. Points are > that: > 1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are > meeting > all new very important people. > 2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a distraction > in > such a situation when visiting a class. > 3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. > 4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. > > I have to say that I've seen new guide dogs act like you describe and it > bothers me. I want to enjoy myself especially if I'm at a restaurant. But > when I have dogs sniffing or licking me, its offensive. I do not! want to > have dog saliva on me when food is around. I do not want it on me if I > cannot wash my hands. I do not want dogs rubbing against me because it can > get dog hair on my slacks when I'm out and the dog hair shows. > Now, do I like dogs? Yes, yes. I like dogs to play with in the yard or at > a > house when I'm dressed down. But when I'm dressed in slacks and a nice > blouse, the last thing I want if a sniffy dog at my side or a dog licking > me. > > There are plenty other times to work with and train your dog without going > to the campus with her at this time. > I think you two need to work together more and you have a chance to train > and correct her so she exhibits more of a guide dog behavior. > So, I'd keep the dog home. You can always revisit > campus with your dog if you decide to go there. > > Speaking from experience, I find it offensive when guide dogs lick me. > Now, > if they are off harness its fine; they are just a dog then and not > working. > But when in the harness, I expect them not to bother me. > > Finally, if you choose to take your pooch, tell the campus. You should be > in > a room with someone who isn't alergic to dogs. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lizzy > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, > but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in > high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first > over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To > all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a > half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair > and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that > I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions > about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually > been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not > sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over > campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically > she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in > new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her > look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with > a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who > doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a > correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any > accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since > I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there > anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give > would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From kaybaycar at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 22:52:59 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:52:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Nov 10 22:54:34 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:54:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] guide dog debate again: was Re: Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> , <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <52800EAA.3090605@tysdomain.com> I've changed the subject line of this thread so that maybe lizzy can get more good information without more spurious facts being given. Josh: You've told us a lot about how it is in the sticks where you're from, and I'm sorry you've came into contact with handlers who do not take care of their dogs. Truth is though, while I've seen some aweful handlers I've seen some really good handlers. We are getting off topic here and this has nothing to do with lizzy's origenal question, but most dogs will not do this. It seems like you're coming to these threads with these misconceptions which you point out again and again on every thread which vaguely talks about guide dogs. While there are dogs who do go to the bathroom in doors from time to time, this is not the norm. I find it rude and at least somewhat close minded then, to continually ignore those good dogs who you may have came into contact with. Ashley: I am a bit concerned at your logical conclusion that someone who has a guide will remain forever lonely and not have the life you white-cane users will have, just because they may have a dog. Again with the misconceptions, but let me try to clear some things up for you, always assuming that you will bother to read and process it. First, you can threaten to sue someone all you want, but I'm having trouble picturing this suit go to court. Perhaps you and Josh should exchange emails so you can keep this crap off list, but I digress. A dog will generally sniff at people, and I've not really found anyone who it's a problem for. If they don't like it, either the person with the issue or myself can move and that's that. It's not a sign of bad manners, but more a sign of the dog being curious. This really isn't disruptive by any means--if this is an issue one just has to mention it to the handler. As to your licks, sniffs, barks and jumps, O my! If you pet a dog, it will probably lick you, so I recommend you don't actually pet the dog if you don't want to be licked. I don't remember O'Mally ever just randomly licking someone unless they were giving him attention, in which case that's your own problem yourself. Dogs also don't tend to just jump on random people unless they know them, which is again something the handler should work on. As for the barks, I've never in the more than two years I've had O'Mally heard him bark in public, nor have I ever seen other dogs do this during training or hwen I came into contact with them. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it is uncommon. What it basically comes down to is this. You, Josh and others prefer the cane; if that is your prefered mode of travel, I could honestly care less as long as you are comfortable with it. I am, however getting tired of hearing tall tales about a dog who once went to the bathroom in a public place and your assumptions. The chance of a dog going to the bathroom in public is fairly unlikely, but then again so is getting struck by lightning. I therefore recommend you stay indoors! Now, I'd like to address one other point before I sign off. Peter has not been kind enough to enlighten me as to the depths of his vast guide handling and/or training experiences, but I'll address the message he sent. When one attends a training program, the goal of that program is to teach you the basic skills you will need in order to work with your guide as a team. You will not leave knowing everything there is to know about guide work, just as one who attends a few mobility lessons will not leave knowing everything there is to travel. To add to this, having a new guide is challenging. Not only are these guides puppies generally, but they will also do what they can to test you and figure out the bounds of what they can and can not do. it takes a handler and their guide a while to become comfortable with their work and work well together. This is a lot of givve and take on both sides, but from my own experiences I can honestly say that the time when you begin to connect with your guide is amazing. The thing also to remember here is unlike canes your guides do have a mind of their own, and they might have their off days, just like anyone else. With all of this said, I do not believe it is right or even proper to sit here and trash a handler who you do not know, or have never seen work. If you have no experience in one of these training programs or working with a guide, it is a bit insane to assume that because one does not graduate with your vast knowledge, their handling skills are thus somewhat inferior or should be questioned. On 11/10/2013 5:32 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or roam around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Nov 10 22:59:16 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:59:16 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> , Message-ID: Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 23:00:33 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 18:00:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Lots of others have given good and not so good advice on this, so I'll keep it short. Bring your dog with you, if for no other reason that you need to have practice getting your dog to settle in new situations. I'm not sure when your college visit is, but you could give yourself practice in new environments in the meantime. That's a phase that all new teams have to go through and its better to address it head on than avoiding situations where it might be a problem. The fact that you are concerned shows that you are a conscientious handler. I don't think you have anything to worry about. You should contact the program and let them know you have a dog out of courtesy for the person you will stay with. They are inviting you into their "home" and it would be thoughtful to let them know in case they are allergic or have an extreme fear of dogs. That way you can avoid any awkward, uncomfortable drama. Best of luck on the visit. It will be a great opportunity for you to learn about college life at that school and good practice for advocating for yourself. Best, Greg On Nov 10, 2013, at 10:44 AM, lizzy wrote: > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 10 23:16:49 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 18:16:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <001501cede67$2392e3f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><001101cede57$d72acaf0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><527FF444.1050208@tysdomain.com> <001501cede67$2392e3f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <3E25A7C2070043CAA41E8561C95B9835@OwnerPC> Peter, Wow, we agree for once. I agree that Lizzy's dog situation is a symptom of a underlying problem with dog programs. I agree with you that many disruptive guide dog behaviors can and should be addressed in training. I have met some guide dogs who do lick and excessively sniff. I also believe the owners should correct such behavior too after leaving the formal dog training. I believe with time the dog will improve. Remember Lizzy only had the dog 3.5 months! I just do not think taking the dog for a overnight visit to a school is the right place to train and get used to a dog. There are certainly good and bad teams but I'm not judging Lizzy and the dog because its so new. However, I have met several guide dog teams that work wonderfully together. Do you know Judy Dickson? She is consumer relations offericer of nls. She and her dog work beautifully together. Her dog is clean. The dog does NOT sniff. The dog does not smell or shed much! The team is a neat pair! Judy trained her dog well during guide dog training and afterward. What I think is so beautiful about this guide dog pair is the dog reads her body language. She can even say a name of a colleague and the dog turns in that direction! If she says go to Ed's desk, it does that. The guide dog helps her walk so gracefully and smoothly! She does not veer as some people do with canes. This team is truly an excellent example! For anyone needing tips for guide dog handling, ask Judy Dickson. She is one of the best handlers I met. I also think good dog teams have a good walking stride and the dog stays still and quiet when its at work. Peter, I do hope you find a good school. You can also home train your guide dog and correct its behavior if it is misbehaving. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Donahue Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:49 PM To: tyler at tysdomain.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Good afternoon everyone, I have had four guide dogs including two from The Seeing Eye. None of the guide dog programs I have had experience with measure up to my standards of what a quality guide dog training program should be and what it should expect of its teams when they leave. I've observed many of the same problems others spoke of on this list. I and others believe that many of them could have been addressed in training. It's for this reason that unless I find myself traveling more in the future I have serious doubts about whether I'll seek a replacement for my current dog Johnny when he retires. One thing that would change my mind about going all cane is if the NFB were to start its own guide dog program. Lizzie's situation is a symptom of an underlying problem with every last guide dog program in this country! As a consumer of services for the blind I'll set my standards and expect those from whom I seek such services including guide dog training schools to meet or exceed them and urge others to do the same. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Peter, have you ever had a guide? On 11/10/2013 4:00 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Good afternoon Ashley and everyone, > > If the person in question cannot handle their dog especially in new > situations one wonders how they managed to graduate from guide dog > training. > If the guide dog program had done its job well its students should leave > being able to handle their dogs in new situations with ease. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:53 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > Lizzy, > > I agree with Joshua. I'm a cane user btw. > You seem unsure of handling your new dog in a new environment. > I would leave your dog at home and let your family care for him or her. > It’s a brief time so it should not mess up > any working time you have. > > I think it will be less stressful and easier for you to navigate the > campus > with just your cane. You can have more tactile contact with surfaces then. > You'd also have to plan to take your dog out to relieve him or herself and > you don't know where that is. > > I would also be concerned about what you said regarding the dog's > behavior. > Remember you want to present a good professional appearance. Points are > that: > 1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are > meeting > all new very important people. > 2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a distraction > in > such a situation when visiting a class. > 3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. > 4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. > > I have to say that I've seen new guide dogs act like you describe and it > bothers me. I want to enjoy myself especially if I'm at a restaurant. But > when I have dogs sniffing or licking me, its offensive. I do not! want to > have dog saliva on me when food is around. I do not want it on me if I > cannot wash my hands. I do not want dogs rubbing against me because it can > get dog hair on my slacks when I'm out and the dog hair shows. > Now, do I like dogs? Yes, yes. I like dogs to play with in the yard or at > a > house when I'm dressed down. But when I'm dressed in slacks and a nice > blouse, the last thing I want if a sniffy dog at my side or a dog licking > me. > > There are plenty other times to work with and train your dog without going > to the campus with her at this time. > I think you two need to work together more and you have a chance to train > and correct her so she exhibits more of a guide dog behavior. > So, I'd keep the dog home. You can always revisit > campus with your dog if you decide to go there. > > Speaking from experience, I find it offensive when guide dogs lick me. > Now, > if they are off harness its fine; they are just a dog then and not > working. > But when in the harness, I expect them not to bother me. > > Finally, if you choose to take your pooch, tell the campus. You should be > in > a room with someone who isn't alergic to dogs. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lizzy > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, > but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in > high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first > over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To > all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a > half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair > and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that > I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions > about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually > been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not > sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over > campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically > she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in > new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her > look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with > a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who > doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a > correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any > accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since > I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there > anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give > would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Nov 10 23:23:30 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:23:30 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <3E25A7C2070043CAA41E8561C95B9835@OwnerPC> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><001101cede57$d72acaf0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><527FF444.1050208@tysdomain.com> <001501cede67$2392e3f0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn>, <3E25A7C2070043CAA41E8561C95B9835@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <3da7a0d95ef547f0a863de208c5d13bf@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Another great post! I'd like to say that I'm not judging Lizzy either, but since the dog is as new as it is, Ashley's correct that this is too much too soon. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Peter, Wow, we agree for once. I agree that Lizzy's dog situation is a symptom of a underlying problem with dog programs. I agree with you that many disruptive guide dog behaviors can and should be addressed in training. I have met some guide dogs who do lick and excessively sniff. I also believe the owners should correct such behavior too after leaving the formal dog training. I believe with time the dog will improve. Remember Lizzy only had the dog 3.5 months! I just do not think taking the dog for a overnight visit to a school is the right place to train and get used to a dog. There are certainly good and bad teams but I'm not judging Lizzy and the dog because its so new. However, I have met several guide dog teams that work wonderfully together. Do you know Judy Dickson? She is consumer relations offericer of nls. She and her dog work beautifully together. Her dog is clean. The dog does NOT sniff. The dog does not smell or shed much! The team is a neat pair! Judy trained her dog well during guide dog training and afterward. What I think is so beautiful about this guide dog pair is the dog reads her body language. She can even say a name of a colleague and the dog turns in that direction! If she says go to Ed's desk, it does that. The guide dog helps her walk so gracefully and smoothly! She does not veer as some people do with canes. This team is truly an excellent example! For anyone needing tips for guide dog handling, ask Judy Dickson. She is one of the best handlers I met. I also think good dog teams have a good walking stride and the dog stays still and quiet when its at work. Peter, I do hope you find a good school. You can also home train your guide dog and correct its behavior if it is misbehaving. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Donahue Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:49 PM To: tyler at tysdomain.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Good afternoon everyone, I have had four guide dogs including two from The Seeing Eye. None of the guide dog programs I have had experience with measure up to my standards of what a quality guide dog training program should be and what it should expect of its teams when they leave. I've observed many of the same problems others spoke of on this list. I and others believe that many of them could have been addressed in training. It's for this reason that unless I find myself traveling more in the future I have serious doubts about whether I'll seek a replacement for my current dog Johnny when he retires. One thing that would change my mind about going all cane is if the NFB were to start its own guide dog program. Lizzie's situation is a symptom of an underlying problem with every last guide dog program in this country! As a consumer of services for the blind I'll set my standards and expect those from whom I seek such services including guide dog training schools to meet or exceed them and urge others to do the same. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Peter, have you ever had a guide? On 11/10/2013 4:00 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Good afternoon Ashley and everyone, > > If the person in question cannot handle their dog especially in new > situations one wonders how they managed to graduate from guide dog > training. > If the guide dog program had done its job well its students should leave > being able to handle their dogs in new situations with ease. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:53 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > Lizzy, > > I agree with Joshua. I'm a cane user btw. > You seem unsure of handling your new dog in a new environment. > I would leave your dog at home and let your family care for him or her. > It’s a brief time so it should not mess up > any working time you have. > > I think it will be less stressful and easier for you to navigate the > campus > with just your cane. You can have more tactile contact with surfaces then. > You'd also have to plan to take your dog out to relieve him or herself and > you don't know where that is. > > I would also be concerned about what you said regarding the dog's > behavior. > Remember you want to present a good professional appearance. Points are > that: > 1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are > meeting > all new very important people. > 2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a distraction > in > such a situation when visiting a class. > 3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. > 4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. > > I have to say that I've seen new guide dogs act like you describe and it > bothers me. I want to enjoy myself especially if I'm at a restaurant. But > when I have dogs sniffing or licking me, its offensive. I do not! want to > have dog saliva on me when food is around. I do not want it on me if I > cannot wash my hands. I do not want dogs rubbing against me because it can > get dog hair on my slacks when I'm out and the dog hair shows. > Now, do I like dogs? Yes, yes. I like dogs to play with in the yard or at > a > house when I'm dressed down. But when I'm dressed in slacks and a nice > blouse, the last thing I want if a sniffy dog at my side or a dog licking > me. > > There are plenty other times to work with and train your dog without going > to the campus with her at this time. > I think you two need to work together more and you have a chance to train > and correct her so she exhibits more of a guide dog behavior. > So, I'd keep the dog home. You can always revisit > campus with your dog if you decide to go there. > > Speaking from experience, I find it offensive when guide dogs lick me. > Now, > if they are off harness its fine; they are just a dog then and not > working. > But when in the harness, I expect them not to bother me. > > Finally, if you choose to take your pooch, tell the campus. You should be > in > a room with someone who isn't alergic to dogs. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: lizzy > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, > but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in > high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first > over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To > all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a > half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair > and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that > I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions > about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually > been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not > sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over > campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically > she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in > new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her > look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with > a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who > doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a > correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any > accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since > I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there > anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give > would be greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Nov 10 23:28:14 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 18:28:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC>, Message-ID: I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It’s a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Nov 10 23:33:52 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:33:52 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC>, , Message-ID: <6cacc171b1c84c2e8aa60a3c8a1f862b@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> The only dog that mis-behaved at the NFB convention, was in 2010. The scholarship winner was playing his classical piece, and his dog went roaming around the room. When he was through playing, he was looking for his dog. Thankfully, the dog was well-behaved enough not to sniff, bark, or anything else. My friend Chris Jones solved this problem with his dog, by keeping the dog close to him. The dog would stay on the floor, and the leash was on chris's left foot, so the dog couldn't go anywhere. He used his right foot to hold down the pedal so that the notes on the piano could be sustained. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It’s a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 23:37:00 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 18:37:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> , <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <39CD82BB-F2C5-41AC-B123-9B8ECF3A45DF@gmail.com> I think its unfortunate that whenever a thread about guide dogs comes up, there is a contingent that feels like its their job to pull out all of the guide dog horror stories they can think of. Yes, we've all met bad guide dog handlers and it makes us uncomfortable. I would dare say that as a guide dog handler, I am even more offended by badly behaved dogs than you are, because it reflects poorly on dogs in general. Yours and my bad experiences though are no excuse for discouraging a young student from learning how to use her chosen mobility tool well. It's also no excuse for putting down a specific guide dog school that you haven't attended yourself, and so by proxy putting down the dogs and handlers that come from that school. Why isn't it ok to just say, "I haven't had great experiences with guide dogs in the past and I really don't think a guide dog is the mobility tool for me." It would make sense for people to share their own experiences related to the concerns at hand, i.e. sniffing, excitable guide dogs, bad first impressions, but I'm not sure how dog guides relieving themselves in inappropriate places has any place in this conversation. It just feels like another dig at guide dogs in general, which is divisive and inflammatory in a group composed of people who use a variety of tools and techniques for travel. As I reread what I have written, I realize that my response might come off a little strong (must have hit a nerve or something). Just be considerate of people who have different preferences than you, and think carefully about whether you are offering opinions and here say or good advice based on experience and knowledge. Best, Greg On Nov 10, 2013, at 5:32 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or roam around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sun Nov 10 23:40:01 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:40:01 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <39CD82BB-F2C5-41AC-B123-9B8ECF3A45DF@gmail.com> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> , <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> , <39CD82BB-F2C5-41AC-B123-9B8ECF3A45DF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5a7d58c69fcb40a1a3a26bbe1d92a1aa@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Greg, I've been around good dog handlers too, and I'm not trying to focus on the negative. I just want her to wait until the dog is used to her, and all that stuff before she puts it in that environment. I'm headed to church now. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Greg Aikens [gpaikens at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I think its unfortunate that whenever a thread about guide dogs comes up, there is a contingent that feels like its their job to pull out all of the guide dog horror stories they can think of. Yes, we've all met bad guide dog handlers and it makes us uncomfortable. I would dare say that as a guide dog handler, I am even more offended by badly behaved dogs than you are, because it reflects poorly on dogs in general. Yours and my bad experiences though are no excuse for discouraging a young student from learning how to use her chosen mobility tool well. It's also no excuse for putting down a specific guide dog school that you haven't attended yourself, and so by proxy putting down the dogs and handlers that come from that school. Why isn't it ok to just say, "I haven't had great experiences with guide dogs in the past and I really don't think a guide dog is the mobility tool for me." It would make sense for people to share their own experiences related to the concerns at hand, i.e. sniffing, excitable guide dogs, bad first impressions, but I'm not sure how dog guides relieving themselves in inappropriate places has any place in this conversation. It just feels like another dig at guide dogs in general, which is divisive and inflammatory in a group composed of people who use a variety of tools and techniques for travel. As I reread what I have written, I realize that my response might come off a little strong (must have hit a nerve or something). Just be considerate of people who have different preferences than you, and think carefully about whether you are offering opinions and here say or good advice based on experience and knowledge. Best, Greg On Nov 10, 2013, at 5:32 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or roam around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From arielle71 at gmail.com Sun Nov 10 23:43:44 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:43:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Still seeking participants for online research study Message-ID: Hi all, My name is Arielle Silverman and I am a doctoral student in the Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of Colorado. As you may know, I am conducting a series of studies for my dissertation examining blind people’s experiences finding employment as well as your experiences in interacting with the blind and sighted communities. I would once again appreciate your help with a brief online study. For this study, you will be asked to write a brief essay and then, depending on which version you are randomly assigned to, to either complete some math problems, verbal problems or a short survey. The entire study should take no more than 30 minutes to complete. Again, in appreciation of your time, you will have the opportunity to enter a raffle drawing to win a $50 gift certificate to a merchant of your choice (Amazon.com, Itunes.com, Olive Garden, or AMC Theaters). All of your responses in the study will be anonymous and confidential. Anyone who is legally blind and at least 18 years old is welcome to participate. However, some of the materials in this study are materials I have used in previous studies. The results are most reliable with participants who have not seen the materials before. Therefore, if you have participated in any of my studies that involved math or verbal problems in the past, I kindly ask that you refrain from participating in this one. If you have just participated in my studies about employment, however, you are welcome to participate in this study. I appreciate your cooperation. To begin please go to: http://ucsas.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_73NGov2j8E4SNOR Thank you as always for your assistance. As many of you have asked about results from this research, I intend to send out a summary of results from all these studies once the project is completed, most likely at some point in the spring. Best, Arielle Silverman, M.A. Doctoral Candidate, Social Psychology Department of Psychology and Neuroscience 345 UCB Boulder, CO 80309-0345 arielle.silverman at colorado.edu On 10/25/13, David Andrews wrote: > I am sorry, I thought I sent it out to the members list, but > didn't. I must have sent it to some individual lists. Send me a > clean copy and I will send it out to everybody, that means over 6000 > persons. > > Dave > > At 12:03 PM 10/25/2013, you wrote: >>You distributed the study I sent out to a few lists on Monday? I >>didn't see it go to all the lists. >>Thanks, >>Arielle >> >>On 10/25/13, David Andrews wrote: >> > I did distribute this to everybody the other day, it is a little soon >> > to do it again. And ... by the way, for us out of school for a long >> > time, the Math was difficult. >> > >> > Dave >> > >> > At 11:49 AM 10/25/2013, you wrote: >> >>Hi Dave, >> >> >> >>I know this is not an NFB-sponsored research project, but I have >> >>really appreciated your willingness to forward these announcements to >> >>NFBNet in the past. This is most likely the last large online study I >> >>will be running and I would appreciate your help with spreading the >> >>word to as many people as possible. Would you be willing to forward >> >>the below to NFBNet? Thank you! >> >> >> >>Hi all, >> >>My name is Arielle Silverman and I am a doctoral student in the >> >>Department of Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of >> >>Colorado. As you may know, I am conducting a series of studies for my >> >>dissertation examining blind people's experiences finding employment >> >>as well as your experiences in interacting with the blind and sighted >> >>communities. I would once again appreciate your help with a brief >> >>online study. For this study, you will be asked to write a brief essay >> >>and then, depending on which version you are randomly assigned to, to >> >>either complete some math problems, verbal problems or a short survey. >> >>The entire study should take no more than 30 minutes to complete. >> >>Again, in appreciation of your time, you will have the opportunity to >> >>enter a raffle drawing to win a $50 gift certificate to a merchant of >> >>your choice (Amazon.com, Itunes.com, Olive Garden, or AMC Theaters). >> >>All of your responses in the study will be anonymous and confidential. >> >>Anyone who is legally blind and at least 18 years old is welcome to >> >>participate. However, some of the materials in this study are >> >>materials I have used in previous studies. The results are most >> >>reliable with participants who have not seen the materials before. >> >>Therefore, if you have participated in any of my studies that involved >> >>math or verbal problems in the past, I kindly ask that you refrain >> >>from participating in this one. If you have just participated in my >> >>studies about employment, however, you are welcome to participate in >> >>this study. I appreciate your cooperation. >> >>To begin please go to: >> >>http://ucsas.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_73NGov2j8E4SNOR >> >>Thank you as always for your assistance. As many of you have asked >> >>about results from this research, I intend to send out a summary of >> >>results from all these studies once the project is completed, most >> >>likely at some point in the spring. >> >>Best, >> >>Arielle Silverman, M.A. >> >>Doctoral Candidate, Social Psychology >> >>Department of Psychology and Neuroscience >> >>345 UCB >> >>Boulder, CO 80309-0345 >> >>arielle.silverman at colorado.edu >> > >> > > > From kaybaycar at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 00:02:46 2013 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 18:02:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <5a7d58c69fcb40a1a3a26bbe1d92a1aa@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> <39CD82BB-F2C5-41AC-B123-9B8ECF3A45DF@gmail.com> <5a7d58c69fcb40a1a3a26bbe1d92a1aa@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Ok this thread is really helping my procrastination efforts... I think the piece of advice that we are all missing here, that may be the most important is that Lizzy has the final decision. She knows her dog, and yes, they may be a new team, but she did the training, and knows her dog better than we do from the past few months. I know from personal experience being a young guide dog handler that sometimes it's easy to feel overwhelmed by the responsibility. But in the end, your decision is the only one that carries any weight. What will give you the most confidence as a handler will be to make a decision based on logical judgement of the pros and cons and then act accordingly. Confidence as a guide dog handler grows over time. If it makes you feel better, do you have a guide dog user friend or two to call in case of any weird behaviors? That is, if you do choose to bring the dog? If you do not choose to bring the dog, do you truly trust that your parents/friends will obey the rules that you lay down? This is very very important both as a matter of respect for you and as a new team. I want you to be comfortable, have confidence in your decision, and remember, take each piece of advice(yes, even mine :)) with a handful of salt. We all have our own biases. P.S. Thank you for the complements. My dog and I are a good team because we have a strong bond, strengthened through the hard work we do together as a team. My dog works, and I give her love and the boundaries she needs to succeed. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Greg, I've been around good dog handlers too, and I'm not trying to focus on > the negative. > I just want her to wait until the dog is used to her, and all that stuff > before she puts it in that environment. > I'm headed to church now. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Greg Aikens > [gpaikens at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > I think its unfortunate that whenever a thread about guide dogs comes up, > there is a contingent that feels like its their job to pull out all of the > guide dog horror stories they can think of. Yes, we've all met bad guide > dog handlers and it makes us uncomfortable. I would dare say that as a > guide dog handler, I am even more offended by badly behaved dogs than you > are, because it reflects poorly on dogs in general. Yours and my bad > experiences though are no excuse for discouraging a young student from > learning how to use her chosen mobility tool well. It's also no excuse for > putting down a specific guide dog school that you haven't attended yourself, > and so by proxy putting down the dogs and handlers that come from that > school. Why isn't it ok to just say, "I haven't had great experiences with > guide dogs in the past and I really don't think a guide dog is the mobility > tool for me." > > It would make sense for people to share their own experiences related to the > concerns at hand, i.e. sniffing, excitable guide dogs, bad first > impressions, but I'm not sure how dog guides relieving themselves in > inappropriate places has any place in this conversation. It just feels like > another dig at guide dogs in general, which is divisive and inflammatory in > a group composed of people who use a variety of tools and techniques for > travel. > > As I reread what I have written, I realize that my response might come off a > little strong (must have hit a nerve or something). Just be considerate of > people who have different preferences than you, and think carefully about > whether you are offering opinions and here say or good advice based on > experience and knowledge. > > Best, > Greg > On Nov 10, 2013, at 5:32 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Great post, Ashley! >> Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or >> roam around the room, when not being handled? >> That has happened way too much where I'm from! >> Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! >> You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, >> (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the >> Blind! >> Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because >> that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! >> That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! >> Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett >> [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> Mark, >> I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. >> I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. >> I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have >> no >> problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or >> exhibit other behavior she mentioned. >> I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. >> >> You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but >> when >> you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you >> might >> think again. >> >> I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in >> public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. >> You >> have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a >> working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should >> I >> mention barks? >> Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But >> to >> what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting >> before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights >> comes >> responsibility. >> I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have >> a >> guide dog. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark J. Cadigan >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide >> Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are >> themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw >> from >> when giving advice. >> >> >> >> Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I >> would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I >> have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people >> say >> about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting >> accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely >> do >> so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to >> get >> an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a >> student. >> >> >> >> My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there >> problem >> and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, >> and >> if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being >> said, >> you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should >> stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. >> >> >> >> The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with >> someone >> while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no >> clue >> what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on >> the >> college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not >> let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they >> are >> just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. >> >> >> >> Feel free to email me off list >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "lizzy" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> >>> Hi All, >>> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >>> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >>> not >>> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is >>> at >>> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >>> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >>> if >>> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My >>> reasons >>> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a >>> lot >>> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >>> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple >>> (a >>> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this >>> or >>> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >>> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she >>> is >>> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't >>> make >>> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >>> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >>> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >>> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >>> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >>> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >>> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about >>> the >>> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >>> greatly appreciated. >>> Thanks, >>> Lizzy >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From trillian551 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 00:26:23 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 19:26:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Telescopic Cane Tips In-Reply-To: <001501cede33$5792a610$06b7f230$@gmail.com> References: <001501cede33$5792a610$06b7f230$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Joe, sounds like you may have gotten a defective cane all together. If the tip isn't staying on the screw-like thingy, that might be the cane's and not the tip's fault. I have one of the new telescoping, I've replaced the tip a few times with no issues. Good luck. Mary F On 11/10/13, Joe wrote: > Hello, > > > > Is anyone using one of the NFB's telescopic canes? If so, how have your > tips > faired? I recently bought one where the tip became detached, and I see no > easy way of making it stick short of using heavy glue, which almost becomes > counterproductive when it comes to replacing it. I wish whomever was > producing the previous models would come back. These latter models are > comparatively crappy. I did take a chance on an Ambutec model, and although > it is more durable, the length completely defeats the purpose of > portability. I was told it would collapse in three pieces. It only > collapses > in a rough half. Anyway, I digress. If I'm completely ignorant on the > proper > maintenance of the NFB telescopic cane tips, by all means let me know. > > > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From sparklylicious at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 00:52:28 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:52:28 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <001101cede57$d72acaf0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <001101cede57$d72acaf0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <006001cede78$4caab220$e6001660$@gmail.com> Hi all, The thing is, dogs will be dogs and they will lick. There is no way to expect them to not do so 100%. Especially if there's a new team, it takes a while for them to bond and for the dog to know the expectations. It's not fair or practical to expect a dog to do all the things you want him/her to do right away. Please keep in mind that things take time. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 1:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Good afternoon Ashley and everyone, If the person in question cannot handle their dog especially in new situations one wonders how they managed to graduate from guide dog training. If the guide dog program had done its job well its students should leave being able to handle their dogs in new situations with ease. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Lizzy, I agree with Joshua. I'm a cane user btw. You seem unsure of handling your new dog in a new environment. I would leave your dog at home and let your family care for him or her. It’s a brief time so it should not mess up any working time you have. I think it will be less stressful and easier for you to navigate the campus with just your cane. You can have more tactile contact with surfaces then. You'd also have to plan to take your dog out to relieve him or herself and you don't know where that is. I would also be concerned about what you said regarding the dog's behavior. Remember you want to present a good professional appearance. Points are that: 1. the dog is very excited around new people. Keep in mind you are meeting all new very important people. 2. Her behavior is unpredictable. I believe a dog would be a distraction in such a situation when visiting a class. 3. The dog is sniffy in new environments and it interferes with her work. 4. You might offend people with the dog's untrained behavior. I have to say that I've seen new guide dogs act like you describe and it bothers me. I want to enjoy myself especially if I'm at a restaurant. But when I have dogs sniffing or licking me, its offensive. I do not! want to have dog saliva on me when food is around. I do not want it on me if I cannot wash my hands. I do not want dogs rubbing against me because it can get dog hair on my slacks when I'm out and the dog hair shows. Now, do I like dogs? Yes, yes. I like dogs to play with in the yard or at a house when I'm dressed down. But when I'm dressed in slacks and a nice blouse, the last thing I want if a sniffy dog at my side or a dog licking me. There are plenty other times to work with and train your dog without going to the campus with her at this time. I think you two need to work together more and you have a chance to train and correct her so she exhibits more of a guide dog behavior. So, I'd keep the dog home. You can always revisit campus with your dog if you decide to go there. Speaking from experience, I find it offensive when guide dogs lick me. Now, if they are off harness its fine; they are just a dog then and not working. But when in the harness, I expect them not to bother me. Finally, if you choose to take your pooch, tell the campus. You should be in a room with someone who isn't alergic to dogs. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: lizzy Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi All, I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Lizzy _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.com From sparklylicious at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 00:58:58 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 16:58:58 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <006201cede79$34f58dc0$9ee0a940$@gmail.com> Ashley, Most guide dogs I've met do not exhibit any of the behaviors you just mentioned. Like I said in my previous post, things take time and since you've never had a guide dog, i would have to disagree with you. I think Mark and others are right. if Lizzy, or anyone for that matter, is planning on attending a certain college, they should probably take their guide with them. -----Original Message---- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 2:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Mark, I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or exhibit other behavior she mentioned. I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you might think again. I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I mention barks? Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes responsibility. I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have a guide dog. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mark J. Cadigan Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi, Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from when giving advice. Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student. My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said, you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. Feel free to email me off list Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "lizzy" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > Hi All, > I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I > am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going not > for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at > my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my > lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if > it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons > are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot > of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've > taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a > specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or > not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is > very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make > her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an > interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current > student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or > vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I > haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll > need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the > dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > greatly appreciated. > Thanks, > Lizzy > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.com From sparklylicious at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 01:09:22 2013 From: sparklylicious at gmail.com (Hannah Chadwick) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:09:22 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC>, Message-ID: <006401cede7a$a92bcf00$fb836d00$@gmail.com> Ashley and Josh, Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 01:36:19 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:36:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <006401cede7a$a92bcf00$fb836d00$@gmail.com> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC>, <006401cede7a$a92bcf00$fb836d00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hannah, Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which school this is although I plan to find out. Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many teams are fine. I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him or her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole dog user group a bad representation. I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged animal given the advice so far. I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new environment and stress. I hope it’s the right decision. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hannah Chadwick Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Ashley and Josh, Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 01:54:31 2013 From: ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com (ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 18:54:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> <006401cede7a$a92bcf00$fb836d00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A8586D1-7764-452D-9A5F-832AB439BA0C@gmail.com> Josh It is my understanding that you expect a guy dog to not lick and put the dog into stressful environments Until the dog shows it can handle it, but how is the dog supposed to learn unless you put it into those type of experiences. A dog is not a cane you can just leave it at home. That is a waste of the hard earned training. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 10, 2013, at 6:36 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Hannah, > Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. > He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which school this is although I plan to find out. > > Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many teams are fine. > I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him or her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. > But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole dog user group a bad representation. > > I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged animal given the advice so far. > I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new environment and stress. I hope it’s the right decision. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- From: Hannah Chadwick > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Ashley and Josh, > Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great > things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you > put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to > your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address > many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you > guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has > never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't > judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us > free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I > strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides > and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. > AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams > better than others. > I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. > It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to > correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the > dog too. > > Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, > not the one in CA. > You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. > Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well > behaved dogs. > In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that > cubicle. > > They do not make messes. > They do not sniff excessively. > And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new > people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. > > > Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to > national convention. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi Julie. > You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. > I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! > The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! > All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. > This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, > and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned > me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. > Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your > school! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity > [kaybaycar at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi all, > > I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is > worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's > behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us > means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make > judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on > college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt > well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about > how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the > challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized > we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. > Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. > > As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but > most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing > people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide > us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we > are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it > to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of > dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how > important this is after all. > > Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate > being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my > dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The > reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a > little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if > they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog > no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the > bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other > part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. > But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and > intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to > others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure > you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a > dog at this college visit. > >> On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Great post, Ashley! >> Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or >> roam >> around the room, when not being handled? >> That has happened way too much where I'm from! >> Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! >> You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, >> (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the >> Blind! >> Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because >> that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! >> That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! >> Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett >> [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> Mark, >> I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. >> I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. >> I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have >> no >> problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or >> exhibit other behavior she mentioned. >> I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. >> >> You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but >> when >> you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you >> might >> think again. >> >> I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in >> public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. >> You >> have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a >> working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should >> I >> mention barks? >> Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to >> what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting >> before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights >> comes >> responsibility. >> I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have >> a >> guide dog. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark J. Cadigan >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide >> Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are >> themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from >> when giving advice. >> >> >> >> Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I >> would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I >> have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say >> about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting >> accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do >> so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to >> get >> an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a >> student. >> >> >> >> My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem >> and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, >> and >> if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being >> said, >> you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should >> stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. >> >> >> >> The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with >> someone >> while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue >> what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on >> the >> college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not >> let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they >> are >> just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. >> >> >> >> Feel free to email me off list >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "lizzy" >> To: >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> >>> Hi All, >>> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >>> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >>> not >>> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >>> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >>> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >>> if >>> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >>> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >>> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >>> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >>> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >>> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >>> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >>> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >>> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >>> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >>> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >>> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >>> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >>> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >>> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >>> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >>> greatly appreciated. >>> Thanks, >>> Lizzy >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o > nmicrosoft.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o > nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com From brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 01:55:18 2013 From: brandonkeithbiggs at gmail.com (Brandon Keith Biggs) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 17:55:18 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Apex email list? Message-ID: <52803906.6000104@gmail.com> Hello, I am trying to move over to the Apex as my primary device finally after a long time of resisting it, and I would like to know if there is an email list for the Apex? Also, a completely different question, If I get the Sendero maps for my APEX and get a Braille sense later, will I need to buy another $1000 set of maps? Thanks, -- Brandon Keith Biggs From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 02:48:33 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:48:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! From valandkayla at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 03:05:20 2013 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:05:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> Greetings, This could get ugly. haha. I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t think to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem like that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire lives, say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on a psych paper. it shows. :D For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun intended. You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a valid concern, I think. Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say that PE classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many aren’t going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i was in high school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do this. you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, but who can say. I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Mon Nov 11 03:05:39 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:05:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <52804983.4020001@tysdomain.com> RJ: I see some pros and cons to this. First, a blind school would theoretically allow someone to be given all the accomadations they need. Without parents who are willing to really fight, many times children in the public school system do not get everything they need. My parents went to bat for me so many times in public schools--first they wanted to transport me on the special ed bus to a school where they had special ed kids and a room just for them. When I finally entered school, it was after a lot of argument; something which a lot of parents may not be aware they can do, or want to do. Even after I was in to the public school system, there were many times in middle school and even high school where I did not have the materials I needed. My issues against the school are along the same lines as what you've noted. I feel like a lot of people come out with many blindisms that may not work so well in the public. This isn't to say that the public school is the end-all be-all for this, because it took my parents and teachers working with me to keep me from walking with my head down, but I feel like more exposure to the public is always a plus. Along the same line, I believe that having everything brailled for you every day no matter what is going to prepare you for nothing. I am able to work with my professors and advocate mainly because I had to advocate for myself in high school when I was not getting the materials I needed to get my work done. I think also, schools for the blind serve a duel purpose of allowing the parent to not have to "take care" of the kid, as well as allowing them to brush off the responsibility on someone else. Sometimes this is intentional, others it may just be because there is a huge lack of resources for parents of blind children. I tried going to a school for the blind for about 6 months before I gave it up. While accomidations were great, I really missed the interaction I received with friends I made in public schools. On 11/10/2013 9:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 03:08:59 2013 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:08:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Apex email list? In-Reply-To: <52803906.6000104@gmail.com> References: <52803906.6000104@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Brandon, I'm not sure about the maps, but I do know the braille note list is where the apex is mostly discussed. Hth Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote: > > Hello, > I am trying to move over to the Apex as my primary device finally after a long time of resisting it, and I would like to know if there is an email list for the Apex? > Also, a completely different question, > If I get the Sendero maps for my APEX and get a Braille sense later, will I need to buy another $1000 set of maps? > Thanks, > > -- > Brandon Keith Biggs > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Mon Nov 11 03:09:36 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:09:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52804A70.8010008@tysdomain.com> Valerie: I am confused on one point you make. While I did get some basic training from my school district (and by basic I mean very very basic) and my mom provided a bit more, a lot of what I did learn I did teach myself. I've always been able to take some small knowledge of something and put it to some use--if I have questions, more times than not I can find them out with Google. I also know other blind people who have lost their sight or have always been blind who do the same thing. How is this hard to believe? Do we need someone to show us everything? On 11/10/2013 10:05 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote: > Greetings, > > This could get ugly. haha. > > I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t think to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem like that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. > > I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire lives, say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on a psych paper. it shows. :D > > For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun intended. > > You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. > > In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a valid concern, I think. > > Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say that PE classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many aren’t going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i was in high school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. > > Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do this. you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, but who can say. > > I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) > > > > > On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 03:14:53 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:14:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <2A0A5BB9AF9B4058AA896ECD93A781F4@OwnerPC> RJ, Oh, I could write a book to answer this question. There are so many answers. Think about what blind people face. We face lack of training in school growing up such as kids not learning braille and use of a white cane. We face lack of opportunity from being in sheltered homes and over protective parents. We face lack of work skills from not getting jobs as teens. How many high school students do you know who have jobs? I know zero blind students having jobs. We face social barriers too. So why do people attend centers? It is because we need training to survive. Some specific reasons are these. First, a person needs the braille, technology, living and work skills to make a living. Second, a person needs more opportunity to practice such skills and get confident. Third, a person needs to socialize by doing normal activities in the community. Fourth, a person needs to be challenged to do more than they thought possible and have the spirit to confront societal misconceptions. Finally, we need to thrive in a sighted society and centers help us do that. I'm curious. Based on your question, I suspect you did not attend a center. So how did you learn your skills? Parents? Home rehab teachers? Do you use all the tools of blindness? Not sure if you have any vision. I'm considering a center in fact, although not nfb related as I am uncomfortable with some nfb policies at centers. I'm certainly not a hard core nfb person, although I'm a member and take what I like of the philosophy for myself. Your question does raise good points. No other disability has so many centers dedicated for training. I guess there are centers for blind people because we need such specialized training to live well that providing training via community based programs simply does not cut it well for most people. However, if blind people get the good training on their own or via community based programs like lighthouses for the blind, all the better. No need then to take time away from home and life to attend a center. But for those who need it, I'm glad many centers exist. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 03:23:35 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:23:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC> Valerie, Excellent points! I thought of the learning point you made after sending my email. Sighted kids learn so much by observation. They take it in and do not realize they have learned. But blind kids need to be shown or told how to do things. So, we need more training. I think your reason for schools for the blind makes a lot of sense. Another reason for training centers is opportunity to meet other blind people. At centers you learn together, have parties together, and share stories together. This social bonding with peers helps one adjust to blindness or adjust to independence if you were blind your whole life. The social aspect of meeting people who have gone through what you are going through is very powerful. You actually have friends there who identify with your feelings for once. Too often, blind people feel lonely or feel like no one understands them. I know students in school who know few other blind people and none their age. Sure we can have sighted friends, but having blind friends does help in talking about common problems. So centers fill a social void. All this socialization will hopefully help one's self esteem. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Greetings, This could get ugly. haha. I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t think to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem like that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire lives, say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on a psych paper. it shows. :D For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun intended. You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a valid concern, I think. Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say that PE classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many aren’t going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i was in high school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do this. you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, but who can say. I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind > people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real > world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to > aschool for autistic kids! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From valandkayla at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 03:39:19 2013 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:39:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <52804A70.8010008@tysdomain.com> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <52804A70.8010008@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Yeah, you google them, which means indirectly learning from others. That’s not learning it completely and soupy on your own. And how would you know what to google if you didn’t know the question? If that makes sense. for example, a blind person, who’s bee blind their whole life, most likely wouldn’t know that looking at a person when speaking to them is culturally acceptable if he or she was not told or if he or she did not find this out through another way. On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:09 PM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Valerie: > I am confused on one point you make. While I did get some basic training from my school district (and by basic I mean very very basic) and my mom provided a bit more, a lot of what I did learn I did teach myself. I've always been able to take some small knowledge of something and put it to some use--if I have questions, more times than not I can find them out with Google. I also know other blind people who have lost their sight or have always been blind who do the same thing. How is this hard to believe? Do we need someone to show us everything? > On 11/10/2013 10:05 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> This could get ugly. haha. >> >> I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t think to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem like that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. >> >> I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire lives, say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on a psych paper. it shows. :D >> >> For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun intended. >> >> You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. >> >> In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a valid concern, I think. >> >> Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say that PE classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many aren’t going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i was in high school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. >> >> Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do this. you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, but who can say. >> >> I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> >>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com From valandkayla at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 03:41:43 2013 From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:41:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4BD70011-0FB5-4B45-A056-C75C130DA809@gmail.com> That is an awesomee point. Meeint people who are like you does fill a void that sighted people don’t have to overcome. I remember being about seven or eight. One morning when my mom came to wake me, I remember telling her that I felt like an endangered species because no one was like me. Those were my words. Looking back on it, I can’t imagine how my mom must have felt after hearing those seemingly innocent words. On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Valerie, > Excellent points! > I thought of the learning point you made after sending my email. > Sighted kids learn so much by observation. They take it in and do not realize they have learned. > But blind kids need to be shown or told how to do things. So, we need more training. > I think your reason for schools for the blind makes a lot of sense. > > Another reason for training centers is opportunity to meet other blind people. > At centers you learn together, have parties together, and share stories together. > This social bonding with peers helps one adjust to blindness or adjust to independence if you were blind your whole life. > The social aspect of meeting people who have gone through what you are going through is > very powerful. You actually have friends there who identify with your feelings for once. > Too often, blind people feel lonely or feel like no one understands them. I know students in school who know few other blind people and none their age. > Sure we can have sighted friends, but having blind friends does help in talking about common problems. > So centers fill a social void. All this socialization will hopefully help one's self esteem. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Greetings, > > This could get ugly. haha. > > I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t think to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem like that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. > > I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire lives, say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on a psych paper. it shows. :D > > For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun intended. > > You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. > > In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a valid concern, I think. > > Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say that PE classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many aren’t going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i was in high school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. > > Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do this. you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, but who can say. > > I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) > > > > > On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com From lucysirianni at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 03:47:50 2013 From: lucysirianni at earthlink.net (Lucy Sirianni) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 19:47:50 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Apex email list? Message-ID: Hi Brandon, You can subscribe to the BrailleNote users' listserv at this link: http://www.freelists.org/list/braillenote Hope all's well! Lucy ----- Original Message ----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <52804A70.8010008@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Actually, many parents of autistic children will sometimes send them to a school or specialty resource center for people with autism. While I totally agree that at least the training center nearest my home does not seem to give its students a realistic taste of the world while supposedly preparing them to live in the real world, I see the idea behind the training center for the blind. While most parents can at least bumble around and figure out how to "train" their sighted children to be self-sufficient, employable adults with at least a touch of ambition, many sighted adults have very low expectations of their blind children. You also sometimes get sighted adults who would love for their blind children to be as self-sufficient and capable as they themselves are, but either can't fathom how to teach them the skills they need, or become lazy in the process and decide it's just faster/easier/less expensive/less messy to do things for them. My parents were guilty of this. They knew I could easily learn to serve and cut my own food at the dinner table, but I wasn't going to learn how simply by watching them do it, and at meal time, once the food hit the table, they found it less stressful for them to do it themselves so they wouldn't have to deal with the mess I would make the first few times I tried, or the extra time it would take to stand over me and show me the proper way to hold a steak knife... Consequently, I had to teach myself to do this in my late teens when I began having more meals without my parents present... This is just one example of many, and a very basic one at that. It gets harder and harder for sighted parents who have been taking these "shortcuts" in parenting their blind kids from early on as they move towards things like food preparation, laundry and home maintenance skills, independent travel, money management, the skills of employment, and so on. Many parents think the "experts on blindness" at their local public school are supposed to take on these tasks of parenting for them, but that is neither fair nor realistic in the slightest, and consequently, some blind folks reach adulthood and need a way to gain these skills and this knowledge from someone who has both the knowledge and the patience to teach them thoroughly and properly. Training centers are (should be) a great resource for this. On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote: > Yeah, you google them, which means indirectly learning from others. > That’s not learning it completely and soupy on your own. And how would > you know what to google if you didn’t know the question? If that makes > sense. > > for example, a blind person, who’s bee blind their whole life, most likely > wouldn’t know that looking at a person when speaking to them is culturally > acceptable if he or she was not told or if he or she did not find this out > through another way. > On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:09 PM, Littlefield, Tyler > wrote: > > > Valerie: > > I am confused on one point you make. While I did get some basic training > from my school district (and by basic I mean very very basic) and my mom > provided a bit more, a lot of what I did learn I did teach myself. I've > always been able to take some small knowledge of something and put it to > some use--if I have questions, more times than not I can find them out with > Google. I also know other blind people who have lost their sight or have > always been blind who do the same thing. How is this hard to believe? Do we > need someone to show us everything? > > On 11/10/2013 10:05 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote: > >> Greetings, > >> > >> This could get ugly. haha. > >> > >> I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly > through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react > to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such > visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t think > to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless > they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of > doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing > streets or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem like > that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. > >> > >> I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire > lives, say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, > but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on a > psych paper. it shows. :D > >> > >> For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow > difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun > intended. > >> > >> You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated > differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless > their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I > could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. > >> > >> In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents > thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i > cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a > school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a > mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a > valid concern, I think. > >> > >> Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a > more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only > went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind > people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say > that PE classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many > aren’t going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i was > in high school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. > >> > >> Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do > this. you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones > sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. > This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For > those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, > but who can say. > >> > >> I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in > anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur > wrote: > >> > >>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind > people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real > world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to > aschool for autistic kids! > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > > > > -- > > Take care, > > Ty > > http://tds-solutions.net > > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 03:56:46 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:56:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi RJ and all, I think that in an ideal world, blind students would be able to learn everything they need to know through regular integrated schools. However, in the world that we live in, Braille and cane instruction often falls short in public schools. Schools for the blind and centers are designed to fill those voids. There are certainly some successful blind people who never attended a blindness center of any kind, because they received their basic Braille and cane instruction from TVI's in the regular school and learned everything else at home. However, many of us suffered either from a lack of specialized training at school or from a lack of multi-sensory life experiences at home that allowed us to learn to do some things nonvisually. Also, for folks who become blind later in life, it is necessary to take some time out to learn specialized blindness skills. Incidentally, autistic children usually receive specialized instruction too, though it is usually integrated into some kind of mainstreamed school environment. Many kids today who attend schools for the blind full-time are doing so because they have intellectual disabilities which overshadow their blindness, but families and educators wrongly assume that the blindness is the disability that should be addressed. In my opinion such kids would probably be better served in a special-education program that addresses the intellectual impairments rather than blindness. But there might be more funding for schools for the blind than for self-contained programs for those with intellectual disabilities, I don't know. Perhaps cross-disability education needs to get better. I think the ideal arrangement is for someone to attend a blind-specific school or center for a brief period, a year or two, to learn the basic blindness skills in an intensive way and then return to integrated school or work situations. If kids have had quality blindness training, they shouldn't need nearly as much in the way of public school accommodations, so it is probably a financial advantage too for districts to send blind kids to specialized schools first and then accommodate them in public schools. This was my own experience having gone to a preschool for blind children before entering public school in kindergarten having already mastered Braille and basic cane skills. I really needed relatively little specialized instruction compared to kids who entered kindergarten with no Braille skills at all. I was in a rare place where preschool for the blind was right near my home, but perhaps we should be investing more in developing specialized school classes for very young blind kids. Adult center training, too, should really be just a temporary thing. That is why NFB centers are designed to train a student in 6-9 months so the student never has to go back and re-train, but instead can jump directly into work or school alongside sighted people. I also agree that contact between blind people is really important. Specialized school programs and centers can help make that happen especially in towns where blind people may not run into each other on their own. I know that my own friendships with other blind people growing up completely changed my life and my feelings about blindness. As an adult I still am friends with most of these folks and I still seek contact with other blind people, but in addition to that, I have a sighted husband and good friends and colleagues who are sighted. Again, it's a balance between socializing with other blind people and socializing with family, coworkers and friends who happen to be sighted. Things like NFB chapters or summer kids' camps can help us build connections within the blind community without pulling us out of the sighted one. Best, Arielle On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Valerie, > Excellent points! > I thought of the learning point you made after sending my email. > Sighted kids learn so much by observation. They take it in and do not > realize they have learned. > But blind kids need to be shown or told how to do things. So, we need more > training. > I think your reason for schools for the blind makes a lot of sense. > > Another reason for training centers is opportunity to meet other blind > people. > At centers you learn together, have parties together, and share stories > together. > This social bonding with peers helps one adjust to blindness or adjust to > independence if you were blind your whole life. > The social aspect of meeting people who have gone through what you are going > > through is > very powerful. You actually have friends there who identify with your > feelings for once. > Too often, blind people feel lonely or feel like no one understands them. I > > know students in school who know few other blind people and none their age. > Sure we can have sighted friends, but having blind friends does help in > talking about common problems. > So centers fill a social void. All this socialization will hopefully help > one's self esteem. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Valerie Gibson > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Greetings, > > This could get ugly. haha. > > I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through > modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to > situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such > visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t think > > to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless > they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of > > doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets > > or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem like that, we > > must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. > > I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire lives, > > say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, but more > > often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on a psych > paper. it shows. :D > > For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult it > > must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun intended. > > You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated > differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless > their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I > could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. > > In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents > thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i > cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a > school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a > mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a > valid concern, I think. > > Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a more > > rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went my > > last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people can > > participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say that PE > classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many aren’t > going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i was in high > > school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. > > Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do this. > you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones > sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. > This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For > those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, > but who can say. > > I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in anything > > that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) > > > > > On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur > wrote: > >> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to >> >> aschool for autistic kids! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 03:59:40 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:59:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <4BD70011-0FB5-4B45-A056-C75C130DA809@gmail.com> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC> <4BD70011-0FB5-4B45-A056-C75C130DA809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009001cede92$735784b0$5a068e10$@gmail.com> I can totally agree that interacting with fellow blind peers is a healthy thing. I'm just not sure a training program has to be the way to achieve that level of interaction. I never attended a training program, NFB or otherwise, and far be it from me to tell anyone what they ought or ought not to do. My advice for whatever it's worth is that if you want to go, do it right after high school. It's harder to make it a priority the more responsibilities you accumulate, and after you become gainfully employed, forget about it. Me, I'm surprised the traditional training model still exists. There ought to be some sort of a weekend option for working professionals who would not mind learning woodwork and such. Not everyone enrolls in a program with the intention of proving themselves at Square 1. Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:42 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world That is an awesomee point. Meeint people who are like you does fill a void that sighted people don't have to overcome. I remember being about seven or eight. One morning when my mom came to wake me, I remember telling her that I felt like an endangered species because no one was like me. Those were my words. Looking back on it, I can't imagine how my mom must have felt after hearing those seemingly innocent words. On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Valerie, > Excellent points! > I thought of the learning point you made after sending my email. > Sighted kids learn so much by observation. They take it in and do not realize they have learned. > But blind kids need to be shown or told how to do things. So, we need more training. > I think your reason for schools for the blind makes a lot of sense. > > Another reason for training centers is opportunity to meet other blind people. > At centers you learn together, have parties together, and share stories together. > This social bonding with peers helps one adjust to blindness or adjust to independence if you were blind your whole life. > The social aspect of meeting people who have gone through what you are > going through is very powerful. You actually have friends there who identify with your feelings for once. > Too often, blind people feel lonely or feel like no one understands them. I know students in school who know few other blind people and none their age. > Sure we can have sighted friends, but having blind friends does help in talking about common problems. > So centers fill a social void. All this socialization will hopefully help one's self esteem. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Greetings, > > This could get ugly. haha. > > I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don't get such visual feedback and our sighted peers either don't know how, or don't think to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets or cooking seem like a "Duh" moment, but in order for to seem like that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. > > I don't usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire > lives, say, "Oh i taught myself this or that". Sometimes it may be > true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i'm > working on a psych paper. it shows. :D > > For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently.no pun intended. > > You mentioned autistic children.most autistic children are treated differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless their autism is mild enough where they can get away with "normalcy". I could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. > > In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a mistake. I'm sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It's a valid concern, I think. > > Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn't to say that PE classes at public schools can't modify their curriculum, but many aren't going to do it just for one student, or that's how it was when i was in high school, but I'm sure things have changed in the past six years. > > Back to the training programs, many people have heard, "you can't do this. you're blind" their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, but who can say. > > I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in > anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) > > > > > On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gma >> il.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmai > l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 04:07:06 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:07:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Valerie, Your point about learning has nothing to do with blindness. All of us learn indirectly from other people. And sighted people need training too. The difference is that schools are already set up to train sighted children. They have to be specially configured to train us, and many school districts just aren't up to the challenge. Training blind people is not inherently harder than training sighted people, but because there are few blind people in the world, many folks just don't know how to train us. That said, there are some things sighted people learn by watching, that we have to learn through listening. If something isn't readily audible, then it has to be explained to us. There are, however, many things we learn by listening, feeling, etc. without being explicitly taught. Arielle On 11/10/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi RJ and all, > > I think that in an ideal world, blind students would be able to learn > everything they need to know through regular integrated schools. > However, in the world that we live in, Braille and cane instruction > often falls short in public schools. Schools for the blind and centers > are designed to fill those voids. There are certainly some successful > blind people who never attended a blindness center of any kind, > because they received their basic Braille and cane instruction from > TVI's in the regular school and learned everything else at home. > However, many of us suffered either from a lack of specialized > training at school or from a lack of multi-sensory life experiences at > home that allowed us to learn to do some things nonvisually. Also, for > folks who become blind later in life, it is necessary to take some > time out to learn specialized blindness skills. > Incidentally, autistic children usually receive specialized > instruction too, though it is usually integrated into some kind of > mainstreamed school environment. Many kids today who attend schools > for the blind full-time are doing so because they have intellectual > disabilities which overshadow their blindness, but families and > educators wrongly assume that the blindness is the disability that > should be addressed. In my opinion such kids would probably be better > served in a special-education program that addresses the intellectual > impairments rather than blindness. But there might be more funding for > schools for the blind than for self-contained programs for those with > intellectual disabilities, I don't know. Perhaps cross-disability > education needs to get better. > I think the ideal arrangement is for someone to attend a > blind-specific school or center for a brief period, a year or two, to > learn the basic blindness skills in an intensive way and then return > to integrated school or work situations. If kids have had quality > blindness training, they shouldn't need nearly as much in the way of > public school accommodations, so it is probably a financial advantage > too for districts to send blind kids to specialized schools first and > then accommodate them in public schools. This was my own experience > having gone to a preschool for blind children before entering public > school in kindergarten having already mastered Braille and basic cane > skills. I really needed relatively little specialized instruction > compared to kids who entered kindergarten with no Braille skills at > all. I was in a rare place where preschool for the blind was right > near my home, but perhaps we should be investing more in developing > specialized school classes for very young blind kids. Adult center > training, too, should really be just a temporary thing. That is why > NFB centers are designed to train a student in 6-9 months so the > student never has to go back and re-train, but instead can jump > directly into work or school alongside sighted people. > > I also agree that contact between blind people is really important. > Specialized school programs and centers can help make that happen > especially in towns where blind people may not run into each other on > their own. I know that my own friendships with other blind people > growing up completely changed my life and my feelings about blindness. > As an adult I still am friends with most of these folks and I still > seek contact with other blind people, but in addition to that, I have > a sighted husband and good friends and colleagues who are sighted. > Again, it's a balance between socializing with other blind people and > socializing with family, coworkers and friends who happen to be > sighted. Things like NFB chapters or summer kids' camps can help us > build connections within the blind community without pulling us out of > the sighted one. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Valerie, >> Excellent points! >> I thought of the learning point you made after sending my email. >> Sighted kids learn so much by observation. They take it in and do not >> realize they have learned. >> But blind kids need to be shown or told how to do things. So, we need >> more >> training. >> I think your reason for schools for the blind makes a lot of sense. >> >> Another reason for training centers is opportunity to meet other blind >> people. >> At centers you learn together, have parties together, and share stories >> together. >> This social bonding with peers helps one adjust to blindness or adjust to >> independence if you were blind your whole life. >> The social aspect of meeting people who have gone through what you are >> going >> >> through is >> very powerful. You actually have friends there who identify with your >> feelings for once. >> Too often, blind people feel lonely or feel like no one understands them. >> I >> >> know students in school who know few other blind people and none their >> age. >> Sure we can have sighted friends, but having blind friends does help in >> talking about common problems. >> So centers fill a social void. All this socialization will hopefully help >> one's self esteem. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Valerie Gibson >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> Greetings, >> >> This could get ugly. haha. >> >> I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly >> through >> modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to >> situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such >> visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t >> think >> >> to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless >> they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways >> of >> >> doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing >> streets >> >> or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem like that, >> we >> >> must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. >> >> I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire >> lives, >> >> say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, but >> more >> >> often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on a psych >> paper. it shows. :D >> >> For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult >> it >> >> must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun intended. >> >> You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated >> differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, >> unless >> their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I >> could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. >> >> In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents >> thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i >> cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to >> a >> school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a >> mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a >> valid concern, I think. >> >> Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a >> more >> >> rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went >> my >> >> last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people >> can >> >> participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say that PE >> classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many aren’t >> going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i was in >> high >> >> school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. >> >> Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do >> this. >> you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones >> sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the >> train. >> This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For >> those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as >> others, >> but who can say. >> >> I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in >> anything >> >> that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur >> wrote: >> >>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism >>> to >>> >>> aschool for autistic kids! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 11 04:21:18 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:21:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC>, <006401cede7a$a92bcf00$fb836d00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01cede95$7824e3e0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good evening everyone, He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as guide dog instructors. Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your questions. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hannah, Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which school this is although I plan to find out. Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many teams are fine. I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him or her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole dog user group a bad representation. I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged animal given the advice so far. I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new environment and stress. I hope it’s the right decision. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hannah Chadwick Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Ashley and Josh, Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 04:21:59 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:21:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625><25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com><52804A70.8010008@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Valerie, All of us learn indirectly for some things. I see your point about needing to be explicitly taught some fundamentals, but I think your statement was oversimplified. We can learn without it being explicitly taught. We just use other senses. For instance, using the sense of touch or hearing. Some examples about social etiquette come to mind. By listening, I learned about conversation rules, how to politely interrupt a person, how to end a conversation, and the appropriate use of titles such as when to use Mrs. and Mr. I learned many computer keystrokes on my own such as with jaws short cut keys by simply trial and error and reading the daisy training book. However, I did get the basic jaws training in face to face training through my vr agency who paid for it. So, I think we learn more on our own than we give ourselves credit for sometimes. But point well taken about googling. You can only google what you know to google. If you have no knowledge, you cannot ask the question. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:39 PM To: tyler at tysdomain.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Yeah, you google them, which means indirectly learning from others. That’s not learning it completely and soupy on your own. And how would you know what to google if you didn’t know the question? If that makes sense. for example, a blind person, who’s bee blind their whole life, most likely wouldn’t know that looking at a person when speaking to them is culturally acceptable if he or she was not told or if he or she did not find this out through another way. On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:09 PM, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Valerie: > I am confused on one point you make. While I did get some basic training > from my school district (and by basic I mean very very basic) and my mom > provided a bit more, a lot of what I did learn I did teach myself. I've > always been able to take some small knowledge of something and put it to > some use--if I have questions, more times than not I can find them out > with Google. I also know other blind people who have lost their sight or > have always been blind who do the same thing. How is this hard to believe? > Do we need someone to show us everything? > On 11/10/2013 10:05 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> This could get ugly. haha. >> >> I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly >> through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react >> to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such >> visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t >> think to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and >> unless they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express >> such ways of doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as >> crossing streets or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to >> seem like that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non >> visually. >> >> I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire >> lives, say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, >> but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on >> a psych paper. it shows. :D >> >> For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult >> it must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun intended. >> >> You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated >> differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, >> unless their autism is mild enough where they can get away with >> “normalcy”. I could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic >> people. >> >> In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents >> thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i >> cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to >> a school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making >> a mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s >> a valid concern, I think. >> >> Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a >> more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only >> went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind >> people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say >> that PE classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many >> aren’t going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i >> was in high school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six >> years. >> >> Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do >> this. you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the >> ones sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the >> train. This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a >> center. For those who have condifence, they may not need the center as >> much as others, but who can say. >> >> I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in >> anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur >> wrote: >> >>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism >>> to aschool for autistic kids! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From clb5590 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 04:26:28 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:26:28 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <52804A70.8010008@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: RJ, I think these are good questions. First, you say that "we" send blind people to centers and schools. The NFB does not have a collective policy on where blind kids go to school or where they get training or even if they get training. But in the NFB, we believe that blind children deserve the same educational opportunities as sighted children. Furthermore, we believe that blindness training centers equip blind people with the skills and confidence necessary to pursue fulfilling lives. I will say that personally, I would love to see a day when we don't have to have specialized facilities. In this world, blind children would receive appropriate educations and have opportunities to interact with blind and sighted children. And in this perfect world, blind kids would gain all of the nonvisual techniques and confidence necessary to leading fulfilling lives. But as of now, our society isn't like that, and unfortunately, many schools for the blind and training centers do not equip blind people with the skills and confidence they need. That's why we have worked so hard to develop the teachers of blind students educational curriculum and why we host programs for TBS's and blind students like Youth Slam to provide examples of how to educate blind children. And that's why we have opened 3 training centers that do not make excuses for blind attendees but put them through a curriculum that while taken at face value does not mimic an exact day-in-the-life of a blind person but prepares blind people for real life. And I would argue that going to training is quite like reality. Sure, I am probably never going to live in an apartment complex with 20 other blind people just for probability's sake, but the interactions we had, and the curriculum at the training center very much represent reality. For example, I will never get into a van and ask the driver to drop me off somewhere randomly and not tell me, but the confidence during drop offs has prepared me for several real-world situations when directions from Google maps didn't tell me about the giant diagonal intersection or when I am dealing with a cab driver who drops me off in the wrong place. I think that taking time off to go to training is very important for getting the full value. For example, when I was in college, there were times when I had technology access issues. Instead of plugging through alternative techniques for hours, I often hired a reader. Sometimes this is more efficient, but it can also become an excuse. My priority was to get an education and to turn an assignment, not to learn accessibility workarounds for a particular software. So, if blindness training was a class or something done while one is continuing their life, it would be very easy to fall back into those patterns of making excuses. For example, I went to training, because I knew that I was making excuses not to use public transportation, so I had to be put into a situation where it was my only option to help me become more comfortable with traveling alone. When you go to training, you are literally giving yourself time to solely focus on skills of blindness and the confidence to use those skills and go to school or get a job and live independently. I am thankful that I was able to take advantage of such an amazing opportunity. There are some strict policies at training centers, and not every day was an amazing euphoria of learning 700 new skills, but the curriculum is set for a reason, and we have hundreds of success stories to prove that the reasons are valid. I would encourage anyone who is able to take the time to go to training, because you will never be able to concentrate like that on blindness skills at any other time in your life. Other things will always take priority and your nonvisual techniques will go to the back burner. I tend to agree with you more about your schools for the blind point simply because I have yet to witness a school for the blind giving blind students better education than I have seen done in public schools. This may be the case for some students who attend because their school at home wasn't providing services, but overall, I haven't seen much. I do think that Valerie's point is well taken though. Most of the blind people I know who play sports went to a school for the blind or lived near a goalball team or something like that. Similarly, I know that access in math and science is sometimes better at schools for the blind. So organized blindness-related schooling, sports, training, and everything else can be good and is essential so blind people meet role models and friends. But it would be awesome to live in a society where this is not necessary, but chosen because of the positive value of blind people interacting with one another. That being said, I have enjoyed my times with other blind people because I have developed a lot of great friendships. Cindy On 11/10/13, Jamie P. wrote: > Actually, many parents of autistic children will sometimes send them to a > school or specialty resource center for people with autism. While I totally > agree that at least the training center nearest my home does not seem to > give its students a realistic taste of the world while supposedly preparing > them to live in the real world, I see the idea behind the training center > for the blind. While most parents can at least bumble around and figure out > how to "train" their sighted children to be self-sufficient, employable > adults with at least a touch of ambition, many sighted adults have very low > expectations of their blind children. You also sometimes get sighted adults > who would love for their blind children to be as self-sufficient and > capable as they themselves are, but either can't fathom how to teach them > the skills they need, or become lazy in the process and decide it's just > faster/easier/less expensive/less messy to do things for them. My parents > were guilty of this. They knew I could easily learn to serve and cut my own > food at the dinner table, but I wasn't going to learn how simply by > watching them do it, and at meal time, once the food hit the table, they > found it less stressful for them to do it themselves so they wouldn't have > to deal with the mess I would make the first few times I tried, or the > extra time it would take to stand over me and show me the proper way to > hold a steak knife... Consequently, I had to teach myself to do this in my > late teens when I began having more meals without my parents present... > This is just one example of many, and a very basic one at that. It gets > harder and harder for sighted parents who have been taking these > "shortcuts" in parenting their blind kids from early on as they move > towards things like food preparation, laundry and home maintenance skills, > independent travel, money management, the skills of employment, and so on. > Many parents think the "experts on blindness" at their local public school > are supposed to take on these tasks of parenting for them, but that is > neither fair nor realistic in the slightest, and consequently, some blind > folks reach adulthood and need a way to gain these skills and this > knowledge from someone who has both the knowledge and the patience to teach > them thoroughly and properly. Training centers are (should be) a great > resource for this. > > > > > On Sun, Nov 10, 2013 at 8:39 PM, Valerie Gibson > wrote: > >> Yeah, you google them, which means indirectly learning from others. >> That’s not learning it completely and soupy on your own. And how would >> you know what to google if you didn’t know the question? If that makes >> sense. >> >> for example, a blind person, who’s bee blind their whole life, most >> likely >> wouldn’t know that looking at a person when speaking to them is >> culturally >> acceptable if he or she was not told or if he or she did not find this >> out >> through another way. >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:09 PM, Littlefield, Tyler >> wrote: >> >> > Valerie: >> > I am confused on one point you make. While I did get some basic >> > training >> from my school district (and by basic I mean very very basic) and my mom >> provided a bit more, a lot of what I did learn I did teach myself. I've >> always been able to take some small knowledge of something and put it to >> some use--if I have questions, more times than not I can find them out >> with >> Google. I also know other blind people who have lost their sight or have >> always been blind who do the same thing. How is this hard to believe? Do >> we >> need someone to show us everything? >> > On 11/10/2013 10:05 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote: >> >> Greetings, >> >> >> >> This could get ugly. haha. >> >> >> >> I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly >> through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react >> to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don’t get such >> visual feedback and our sighted peers either don’t know how, or don’t >> think >> to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless >> they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways >> of >> doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing >> streets or cooking seem like a “Duh” moment, but in order for to seem >> like >> that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. >> >> >> >> I don’t usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire >> lives, say, “Oh i taught myself this or that”. Sometimes it may be true, >> but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i’m working on >> a >> psych paper. it shows. :D >> >> >> >> For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow >> difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently…no pun >> intended. >> >> >> >> You mentioned autistic children…most autistic children are treated >> differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, >> unless >> their autism is mild enough where they can get away with “normalcy”. I >> could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. >> >> >> >> In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents >> thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i >> cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to >> a >> school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a >> mistake. I’m sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It’s a >> valid concern, I think. >> >> >> >> Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with >> >> a >> more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only >> went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind >> people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn’t to say >> that PE classes at public schools can’t modify their curriculum, but many >> aren’t going to do it just for one student, or that’s how it was when i >> was >> in high school, but I’m sure things have changed in the past six years. >> >> >> >> Back to the training programs, many people have heard, “you can’t do >> this. you’re blind” their entire lives. Training centers, such as the >> ones >> sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the >> train. >> This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. >> For >> those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as >> others, >> but who can say. >> >> >> >> I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in >> anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to >> aschool for autistic kids! >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Take care, >> > Ty >> > http://tds-solutions.net >> > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that dares not reason is a slave. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 04:31:02 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 20:31:02 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> Hi all, good points thus far, and great discussion. The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is that students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their classmates. They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for the blind where in the public school setting these things are not always readily available . In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will help you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in the world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us to be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this should be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. So, while the implication one might get is that such learning environments shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real world” in a way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you otherwise ill equipped to do. Darian From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Mon Nov 11 04:57:17 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:57:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who has autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this talk are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was born with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't remember much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but pretty close. So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught my sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me longer? Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for the blind. I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was getting worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed to learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. That had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my public school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing learning disability rather then being blind. That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled students is not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state standards. I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public school and graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really really left. Sent from my iPad On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 05:33:06 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> Message-ID: All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the experience. Minh On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: > Hi all, > good points thus far, and great discussion. > The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is that > students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that > would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their classmates. > They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for the > blind where in the public school setting these things are not always readily > available . > In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will help > you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in the > world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us to > be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we > lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this should > be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. > So, while the implication one might get is that such learning environments > shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally > speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real world” in a > way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you > otherwise ill equipped to do. > Darian > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 05:40:17 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:40:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Bridgit, You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your sisters. That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had a two parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit by observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would rather do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do chores ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or guests come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help in chores. However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal care. Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes. Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing what a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike with training wheels once I got that. They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in your lap and chew with mouth closed. In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact, I've met blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents did not expect this of them. But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my parents did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did not go together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher. Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but other more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher. She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes. Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less stressful. So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridget Walker Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who has autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this talk are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was born with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't remember much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but pretty close. So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught my sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me longer? Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for the blind. I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was getting worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed to learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. That had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my public school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing learning disability rather then being blind. That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled students is not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state standards. I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public school and graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really really left. Sent from my iPad On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind > people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real > world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to > aschool for autistic kids! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 05:51:10 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:51:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <000f01cede95$7824e3e0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> <006401cede7a$a92bcf00$fb836d00$@gmail.com> <000f01cede95$7824e3e0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: You might not agree with their managerial policies, but in no way does that reflect on the quality of their guide dogs. ... Personally, I think the people that place the entire blame on the training programs for the faults of their guide dogs are usually the people that can't handle or maintain their guide's training and thus, shouldn't have a guide in the first place. Yes, some training programs aren't as conscientious as others and some dogs just have behavior problems in general, but every training program will work with their graduates to fix the issues if possible. A lot of people who don't have guides forget that dogs are not robots; they're living, breathing, independently thinking creatures that have quirks as we do. From kwakmiso at aol.com Mon Nov 11 05:52:23 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:52:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0ACB953C9F43E-FA4-36FBA@webmail-d172.sysops.aol.com> Just like all other things I think it should be personal decision - whether to attend training centers or not. For school for the blind, I am a hardcore mainstream advocate. However, I agree that learning Braille and basic cane skills is essential. Personally I attended school for the blind for 10 years in South Korea. It was done so because at least at the time being mainstreamed as a non-print reader was almost impossible in Korea. My parents gave me opportunities to learn with sighted peers by sending me to piano and English classes that were taught in private sectors. I am grateful that my parents gave me the opportunity to interact with sighted peers because it was a good motivator and eye-opener for me personally. For the past 6 years since I came to the U.S. I have been mainstreamed. I believe I was able to do it quite successfully because I was competent in Braille and basic cane skills acquired in school for the blind in Korea. I have no idea how it would be to be mainstreamed entire life but as long as a student can learn Braille and cane skills properlhy I believe mainstreaming is better because like RJ mentioned essentially we have to learn to live in the sighted world. Also, being mainstreamed provides so many more opportunities. Yes, it might be harder to play sports at full measure but it doesn't mean you don't have the opportunities to participate in extracurricular activities. While some school districs are better than others, I have fought and still fighting to do what I want to do. I was able to experience activities like competitive marching band, model UN, and competitive swim team because I was mainstreamed. Again, I have a different background than most of people on this list and honestly my knowledge on how school for the blind runs in the state is not as deep as my knowledge on Korean system but I am a firm believer that being mainstreamed is beneficial for students in many ways. When it comes to training centers, I do not yet have a firm stance. I experienced it a little over this past summer and I honestly learned a lot but as Minh pointed out I am still not sure if it's necessary to take 6-9 months out of my life to just focus on learning "blind skills." -----Original Message----- From: Bridget Walker To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Sun, Nov 10, 2013 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who has autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this talk are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was born with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't remember much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but pretty close. So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught my sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me longer? Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for the blind. I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was getting worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed to learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. That had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my public school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing learning disability rather then being blind. That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled students is not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state standards. I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public school and graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really really left. Sent from my iPad On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 06:00:38 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 23:00:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Hi Min, I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle. Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have been reasonably successful without center training. But I had specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills and even though I know how to learn things on my own. Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again as a working, married woman. You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates were lower among traditional center grads than among those who attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore, unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment problem. But it's a step in the right direction. Best, Arielle On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bridgit, > You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your sisters. > That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had a two > parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit by > observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would rather > > do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do chores > ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or guests > > come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help in > chores. > However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal care. > Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes. > Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing what > > a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike with > training wheels once I got that. > They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in your > lap and chew with mouth closed. > In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact, I've met > > blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents did > not expect this of them. > > But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my parents > > did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did not go > > together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher. > Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but other > more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher. > She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes. > > Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less > stressful. > So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you. > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridget Walker > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who has > autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread > emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this talk > > are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was born > with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't remember > much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but pretty > close. > So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught my > sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me longer? > > Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. > That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for the > blind. > I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was getting > worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed to > learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. > Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. That > > had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my public > school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing learning > disability rather then being blind. > That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled students is > > not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state standards. > > I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public school and > > graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really really > left. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" > wrote: > >> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to >> >> aschool for autistic kids! >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 06:11:14 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 01:11:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Arielle, I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for viewing online? I would love to read it. On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Min, > > I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the > best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to > provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were > sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less > learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I > did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been > allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher > at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required > to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle. > Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit > and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent > skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have > been reasonably successful without center training. But I had > specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home > instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel > confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do > think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills > and even though I know how to learn things on my own. > Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I > don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week > so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I > probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't > gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center > students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while > they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just > blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing > social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again > as a working, married woman. > > You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the > evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did > recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have > higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who > attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates > were lower among traditional center grads than among those who > attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who > attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I > think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as > possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training > actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to > go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more > employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore, > unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center > graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment > problem. But it's a step in the right direction. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Bridgit, >> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your sisters. >> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had a >> two >> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit by >> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would >> rather >> >> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do >> chores >> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or >> guests >> >> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help in >> chores. >> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal care. >> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes. >> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing >> what >> >> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike >> with >> training wheels once I got that. >> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in your >> lap and chew with mouth closed. >> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact, I've >> met >> >> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents did >> not expect this of them. >> >> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my >> parents >> >> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did not >> go >> >> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher. >> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but >> other >> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher. >> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes. >> >> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less >> stressful. >> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bridget Walker >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who has >> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread >> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this >> talk >> >> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was born >> with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't remember >> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but pretty >> close. >> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught my >> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me >> longer? >> >> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. >> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for the >> blind. >> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was getting >> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed to >> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. >> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. >> That >> >> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my public >> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing learning >> disability rather then being blind. >> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled students >> is >> >> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state >> standards. >> >> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public school >> and >> >> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really really >> left. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >> >> wrote: >> >>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism >>> to >>> >>> aschool for autistic kids! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From clb5590 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 06:23:13 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:23:13 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Minh, I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with opportunities to build confidence. As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle brought up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether a graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is the desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide later that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates according to these measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure. But the paper will probably provide more insight on this. Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in. I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class takes up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the day does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I made friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool people. The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example, your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at home and in the community. However, I don't think that this experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from society. I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic, but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized that I needed the opportunity to be successful. Cindy On 11/10/13, minh ha wrote: > Arielle, > I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for > viewing online? I would love to read it. > > On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi Min, >> >> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the >> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to >> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were >> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less >> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I >> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been >> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher >> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required >> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle. >> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit >> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent >> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have >> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had >> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home >> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel >> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do >> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills >> and even though I know how to learn things on my own. >> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I >> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week >> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I >> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't >> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center >> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while >> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just >> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing >> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again >> as a working, married woman. >> >> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the >> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did >> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have >> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who >> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates >> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who >> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who >> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I >> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as >> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training >> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to >> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more >> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore, >> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center >> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment >> problem. But it's a step in the right direction. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Bridgit, >>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your sisters. >>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had a >>> two >>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit by >>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would >>> rather >>> >>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do >>> chores >>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or >>> guests >>> >>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help in >>> chores. >>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal care. >>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes. >>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing >>> what >>> >>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike >>> with >>> training wheels once I got that. >>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in >>> your >>> lap and chew with mouth closed. >>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact, I've >>> met >>> >>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents >>> did >>> not expect this of them. >>> >>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my >>> parents >>> >>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did not >>> go >>> >>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but >>> other >>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes. >>> >>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less >>> stressful. >>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Bridget Walker >>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who >>> has >>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread >>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this >>> talk >>> >>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was >>> born >>> with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't remember >>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but pretty >>> close. >>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught my >>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me >>> longer? >>> >>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. >>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for the >>> blind. >>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was getting >>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed >>> to >>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. >>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. >>> That >>> >>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my public >>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing learning >>> disability rather then being blind. >>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled >>> students >>> is >>> >>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state >>> standards. >>> >>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public school >>> and >>> >>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really >>> really >>> left. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism >>>> to >>>> >>>> aschool for autistic kids! >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From louvins at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 12:49:51 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 06:49:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Hi to all. I have been reading this thread with great interest. After I get my associates of Arts degree in January, I will be going to Icrewood in Chicago which is an in state training center to learn some indipendent living skills. For me, I need to attend this center so I can get the skills I'll need when I leave for college. Personally I would have liked to attend an NFB training center, but it is very difficult in Illinois to get VOC. rehab to pay for out of state services. As for schools for the blind, I was mainstreamed through my Junior year of High School then attended the school for the blind for 3 years. Personally, I like mainstreaming a lot better. I feel the education I received in public school was better than what I received at ISVI. I wish I had learned algebra while at ISVI because I would have gotten my associates degree a lot quicker and not have had to take so many remedial math classes. Like others have already stated, it is up to the individual whether to go to a center or not. I did receive some daily living skills while at the school for the blind, but since I didn't use them when I came back home, I lost them. We were never allowed to use the stove or oven unattended which to me kind of defeated the purpose of them trying to teach us to cook. Anyway have a grat day all, and there are my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Minh, > > I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with > opportunities to build confidence. > > As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle brought > up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an > informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al > Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether a > graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of > graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I > think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is the > desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may > attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide later > that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable > measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates > according to these measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the > state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure. > But the paper will probably provide more insight on this. > Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and > not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in. > > I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from > society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class takes > up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the day > does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or > overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I made > friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I > did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I > realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I > wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with > center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and > classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because > someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted > people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool > people. > > The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example, > your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice > your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at > home and in the community. However, I don't think that this > experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class > wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from > society. > > I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic, > but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and > people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it > as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was > just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what > society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and > confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized > that I needed the opportunity to be successful. > > Cindy > > On 11/10/13, minh ha wrote: >> Arielle, >> I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for >> viewing online? I would love to read it. >> >> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi Min, >>> >>> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the >>> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to >>> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were >>> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less >>> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I >>> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been >>> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher >>> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required >>> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle. >>> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit >>> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent >>> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have >>> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had >>> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home >>> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel >>> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do >>> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills >>> and even though I know how to learn things on my own. >>> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I >>> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week >>> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I >>> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't >>> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center >>> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while >>> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just >>> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing >>> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again >>> as a working, married woman. >>> >>> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the >>> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did >>> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have >>> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who >>> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates >>> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who >>> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who >>> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I >>> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as >>> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training >>> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to >>> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more >>> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore, >>> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center >>> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment >>> problem. But it's a step in the right direction. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Bridgit, >>>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your >>>> sisters. >>>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had a >>>> two >>>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit >>>> by >>>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would >>>> rather >>>> >>>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do >>>> chores >>>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or >>>> guests >>>> >>>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help >>>> in >>>> chores. >>>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal care. >>>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes. >>>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing >>>> what >>>> >>>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike >>>> with >>>> training wheels once I got that. >>>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in >>>> your >>>> lap and chew with mouth closed. >>>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact, >>>> I've >>>> met >>>> >>>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents >>>> did >>>> not expect this of them. >>>> >>>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my >>>> parents >>>> >>>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did >>>> not >>>> go >>>> >>>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but >>>> other >>>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes. >>>> >>>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less >>>> stressful. >>>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you. >>>> >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bridget Walker >>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who >>>> has >>>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread >>>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this >>>> talk >>>> >>>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was >>>> born >>>> with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't >>>> remember >>>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but >>>> pretty >>>> close. >>>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught my >>>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me >>>> longer? >>>> >>>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. >>>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for the >>>> blind. >>>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was >>>> getting >>>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed >>>> to >>>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. >>>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. >>>> That >>>> >>>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my >>>> public >>>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing learning >>>> disability rather then being blind. >>>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled >>>> students >>>> is >>>> >>>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state >>>> standards. >>>> >>>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public >>>> school >>>> and >>>> >>>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really >>>> really >>>> left. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >>>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >>>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism >>>>> to >>>>> >>>>> aschool for autistic kids! >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 14:56:28 2013 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:56:28 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Hello, I have had to read this thread, listening to people complaining about having resources which are simply non-existent in England. I live here and if you'd like to live here as well, I can promise you there are no such things as "Light Houses" or "Blind Preschool" or, ha ha ha, "Training Centres" for the blind, unless you count a couple of dedicated schools for the blind which haven't been closed down yet. In this country, there are gangs who specialise in guide dog bashing. I remember a girl who wouldn't leave the house with her cane because some people in her area found it funny to spit on her. I've never been to America although I have read about the extraordinary work The NFB does. If I had access to even half the things you are moaning about, I would be extatic! I could go on about The NLS and how people this side of the world aren't permitted access to web Braille, let alone the hard copy Braille books available but I won't. I could also talk about how Braille transcription is billed by the hour not the page. Come and live here for a month and you'll be greatful for what you have. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 11/11/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: > Hi to all. I have been reading this thread with great interest. > After I get my associates of Arts degree in January, I will be going > to Icrewood in Chicago which is an in state training center to learn > some indipendent living skills. For me, I need to attend this center > so I can get the skills I'll need when I leave for college. > Personally I would have liked to attend an NFB training center, but it > is very difficult in Illinois to get VOC. rehab to pay for out of > state services. As for schools for the blind, I was mainstreamed > through my Junior year of High School then attended the school for the > blind for 3 years. Personally, I like mainstreaming a lot better. I > feel the education I received in public school was better than what I > received at ISVI. I wish I had learned algebra while at ISVI because > I would have gotten my associates degree a lot quicker and not have > had to take so many remedial math classes. Like others have already > stated, it is up to the individual whether to go to a center or not. > I did receive some daily living skills while at the school for the > blind, but since I didn't use them when I came back home, I lost them. > We were never allowed to use the stove or oven unattended which to me > kind of defeated the purpose of them trying to teach us to cook. > Anyway have a grat day all, and there are my thoughts for whatever > they may be worth. > > On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> Minh, >> >> I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with >> opportunities to build confidence. >> >> As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle brought >> up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an >> informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al >> Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether a >> graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of >> graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I >> think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is the >> desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may >> attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide later >> that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable >> measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates >> according to these measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the >> state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure. >> But the paper will probably provide more insight on this. >> Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and >> not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in. >> >> I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from >> society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class takes >> up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the day >> does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or >> overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I made >> friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I >> did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I >> realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I >> wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with >> center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and >> classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because >> someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted >> people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool >> people. >> >> The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example, >> your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice >> your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at >> home and in the community. However, I don't think that this >> experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class >> wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from >> society. >> >> I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic, >> but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and >> people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it >> as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was >> just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what >> society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and >> confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized >> that I needed the opportunity to be successful. >> >> Cindy >> >> On 11/10/13, minh ha wrote: >>> Arielle, >>> I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for >>> viewing online? I would love to read it. >>> >>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi Min, >>>> >>>> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the >>>> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to >>>> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were >>>> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less >>>> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I >>>> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been >>>> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher >>>> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required >>>> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle. >>>> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit >>>> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent >>>> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have >>>> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had >>>> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home >>>> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel >>>> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do >>>> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills >>>> and even though I know how to learn things on my own. >>>> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I >>>> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week >>>> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I >>>> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't >>>> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center >>>> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while >>>> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just >>>> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing >>>> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again >>>> as a working, married woman. >>>> >>>> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the >>>> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did >>>> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have >>>> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who >>>> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates >>>> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who >>>> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who >>>> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I >>>> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as >>>> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training >>>> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to >>>> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more >>>> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore, >>>> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center >>>> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment >>>> problem. But it's a step in the right direction. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Bridgit, >>>>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your >>>>> sisters. >>>>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had a >>>>> two >>>>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit >>>>> by >>>>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would >>>>> rather >>>>> >>>>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do >>>>> chores >>>>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or >>>>> guests >>>>> >>>>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help >>>>> in >>>>> chores. >>>>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal >>>>> care. >>>>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes. >>>>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing >>>>> what >>>>> >>>>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike >>>>> with >>>>> training wheels once I got that. >>>>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in >>>>> your >>>>> lap and chew with mouth closed. >>>>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact, >>>>> I've >>>>> met >>>>> >>>>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents >>>>> did >>>>> not expect this of them. >>>>> >>>>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my >>>>> parents >>>>> >>>>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did >>>>> not >>>>> go >>>>> >>>>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>>>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but >>>>> other >>>>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>>>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes. >>>>> >>>>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less >>>>> stressful. >>>>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Bridget Walker >>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who >>>>> has >>>>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread >>>>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this >>>>> talk >>>>> >>>>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was >>>>> born >>>>> with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't >>>>> remember >>>>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but >>>>> pretty >>>>> close. >>>>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught >>>>> my >>>>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me >>>>> longer? >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. >>>>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for >>>>> the >>>>> blind. >>>>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was >>>>> getting >>>>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed >>>>> to >>>>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. >>>>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. >>>>> That >>>>> >>>>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my >>>>> public >>>>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing >>>>> learning >>>>> disability rather then being blind. >>>>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled >>>>> students >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state >>>>> standards. >>>>> >>>>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public >>>>> school >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really >>>>> really >>>>> left. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >>>>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >>>>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has >>>>>> autism >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>> aschool for autistic kids! >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html From carlymih at comcast.net Mon Nov 11 15:29:52 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 07:29:52 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com> <58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC> <006401cede7a$a92bcf00$fb836d00$@gmail.com> <000f01cede95$7824e3e0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: Good morning, I was outraged when people were talking about their animals being "sniffy," while indeed I can imagine being inclined to amungst guide dog handlers, seems a litttle to me like getting mad at your baby for crying. It's a dog! Not some robot whose whole lot in life is to guide your blind, candy ass around! for today, Car 408-209-323951 PM 11/10/2013, minh ha wrote: >You might not agree with their managerial policies, but in no way does >that reflect on the quality of their guide dogs. ... Personally, I >think the people that place the entire blame on the training programs >for the faults of their guide dogs are usually the people that can't >handle or maintain their guide's training and thus, shouldn't have a >guide in the first place. Yes, some training programs aren't as >conscientious as others and some dogs just have behavior problems in >general, but every training program will work with their graduates to >fix the issues if possible. A lot of people who don't have guides >forget that dogs are not robots; they're living, breathing, >independently thinking creatures that have quirks as we do. > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 16:09:42 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:09:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Huge difference between schools for the blind and training centers for the blind. Theoretically, not necessary to send children to schools for the blind. If a child has the appropriate skills to learn, Braille, travel skill of some kind, adaptive technology, they should be able to survive in any learning environment as long as proper accomodations are made available. A training center though, is a place where adults spend a short amount of time learning nonvisual skills so they can go back to the so-called real world and live, work and learn alongside sighted people. Having lost my sight at the age of 22, I would not have finished my degree, married or have a child without a training center for the blind. In order to live my life and do things as efficiently as I did when sighted, I require tools like Braille, white cane travel and the use of a screenreader, not to mention various methods picked up and developed in the last ten years since losing my vision. I spent nine months learning these nonvisual skills then went back to my life, finishing my degree. I also married and now am the mommy of a very active 14 month-old son, and being a stay-at-home mom, I would not be able to handle this without having learned nonvisual tools. So if you know of a way for blind people to learn nonvisual skills outside of a training center, with the help of those who work in such centers, please enlighten us. Bridgit Message: 10 Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 21:48:33 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! From wmodnl at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 16:26:34 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:26:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: While reading this thread, the following salient points come to mind. First, simply put, school districts, the "normal sited world", and others will not interact with us unless they are forced. Schools for the blind and other centers allow for the burden shift to happen, fostering legal discrimination against us. While my views are not swayed that all people want this, when you are part of a minority group like blindness, no one wants to be responsible for your success. Blind schools, training centers, and other resources can act as extra voices when parrents and children are up against opposing systems like public schools. The low expectations, negative attitudes force us in many ways to need these places. A school system is going to do what it wants, regardless of the blind child's and parents wishes. It can be argued that, these other institutions provide us a needed system of checks and balances. Without them, the doctors, local government, and others in power would probably set laws to keep us out of the public. Sent from my iPad > On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:57 AM, "Sandra Gayer" wrote: > > Hello, > I have had to read this thread, listening to people complaining about > having resources which are simply non-existent in England. I live here > and if you'd like to live here as well, I can promise you there are no > such things as "Light Houses" or "Blind Preschool" or, ha ha ha, > "Training Centres" for the blind, unless you count a couple of > dedicated schools for the blind which haven't been closed down yet. In > this country, there are gangs who specialise in guide dog bashing. I > remember a girl who wouldn't leave the house with her cane because > some people in her area found it funny to spit on her. I've never been > to America although I have read about the extraordinary work The NFB > does. If I had access to even half the things you are moaning about, I > would be extatic! I could go on about The NLS and how people this side > of the world aren't permitted access to web Braille, let alone the > hard copy Braille books available but I won't. I could also talk about > how Braille transcription is billed by the hour not the page. Come and > live here for a month and you'll be greatful for what you have. > > Very best wishes, > Sandra. > >> On 11/11/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >> Hi to all. I have been reading this thread with great interest. >> After I get my associates of Arts degree in January, I will be going >> to Icrewood in Chicago which is an in state training center to learn >> some indipendent living skills. For me, I need to attend this center >> so I can get the skills I'll need when I leave for college. >> Personally I would have liked to attend an NFB training center, but it >> is very difficult in Illinois to get VOC. rehab to pay for out of >> state services. As for schools for the blind, I was mainstreamed >> through my Junior year of High School then attended the school for the >> blind for 3 years. Personally, I like mainstreaming a lot better. I >> feel the education I received in public school was better than what I >> received at ISVI. I wish I had learned algebra while at ISVI because >> I would have gotten my associates degree a lot quicker and not have >> had to take so many remedial math classes. Like others have already >> stated, it is up to the individual whether to go to a center or not. >> I did receive some daily living skills while at the school for the >> blind, but since I didn't use them when I came back home, I lost them. >> We were never allowed to use the stove or oven unattended which to me >> kind of defeated the purpose of them trying to teach us to cook. >> Anyway have a grat day all, and there are my thoughts for whatever >> they may be worth. >> >>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>> Minh, >>> >>> I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with >>> opportunities to build confidence. >>> >>> As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle brought >>> up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an >>> informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al >>> Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether a >>> graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of >>> graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I >>> think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is the >>> desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may >>> attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide later >>> that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable >>> measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates >>> according to these measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the >>> state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure. >>> But the paper will probably provide more insight on this. >>> Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and >>> not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in. >>> >>> I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from >>> society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class takes >>> up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the day >>> does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or >>> overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I made >>> friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I >>> did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I >>> realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I >>> wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with >>> center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and >>> classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because >>> someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted >>> people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool >>> people. >>> >>> The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example, >>> your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice >>> your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at >>> home and in the community. However, I don't think that this >>> experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class >>> wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from >>> society. >>> >>> I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic, >>> but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and >>> people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it >>> as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was >>> just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what >>> society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and >>> confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized >>> that I needed the opportunity to be successful. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>>> On 11/10/13, minh ha wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for >>>> viewing online? I would love to read it. >>>> >>>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> Hi Min, >>>>> >>>>> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the >>>>> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to >>>>> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were >>>>> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less >>>>> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I >>>>> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been >>>>> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher >>>>> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required >>>>> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle. >>>>> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit >>>>> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent >>>>> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have >>>>> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had >>>>> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home >>>>> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel >>>>> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do >>>>> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills >>>>> and even though I know how to learn things on my own. >>>>> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I >>>>> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week >>>>> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I >>>>> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't >>>>> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center >>>>> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while >>>>> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just >>>>> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing >>>>> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again >>>>> as a working, married woman. >>>>> >>>>> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the >>>>> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did >>>>> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have >>>>> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who >>>>> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates >>>>> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who >>>>> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who >>>>> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I >>>>> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as >>>>> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training >>>>> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to >>>>> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more >>>>> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore, >>>>> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center >>>>> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment >>>>> problem. But it's a step in the right direction. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Bridgit, >>>>>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your >>>>>> sisters. >>>>>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had a >>>>>> two >>>>>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit >>>>>> by >>>>>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would >>>>>> rather >>>>>> >>>>>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do >>>>>> chores >>>>>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or >>>>>> guests >>>>>> >>>>>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help >>>>>> in >>>>>> chores. >>>>>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal >>>>>> care. >>>>>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes. >>>>>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing >>>>>> what >>>>>> >>>>>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike >>>>>> with >>>>>> training wheels once I got that. >>>>>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in >>>>>> your >>>>>> lap and chew with mouth closed. >>>>>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact, >>>>>> I've >>>>>> met >>>>>> >>>>>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents >>>>>> did >>>>>> not expect this of them. >>>>>> >>>>>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my >>>>>> parents >>>>>> >>>>>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did >>>>>> not >>>>>> go >>>>>> >>>>>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>>>>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but >>>>>> other >>>>>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>>>>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less >>>>>> stressful. >>>>>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Bridget Walker >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who >>>>>> has >>>>>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread >>>>>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this >>>>>> talk >>>>>> >>>>>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was >>>>>> born >>>>>> with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't >>>>>> remember >>>>>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but >>>>>> pretty >>>>>> close. >>>>>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught >>>>>> my >>>>>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me >>>>>> longer? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. >>>>>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for >>>>>> the >>>>>> blind. >>>>>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was >>>>>> getting >>>>>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed >>>>>> to >>>>>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. >>>>>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. >>>>>> That >>>>>> >>>>>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my >>>>>> public >>>>>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing >>>>>> learning >>>>>> disability rather then being blind. >>>>>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled >>>>>> students >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state >>>>>> standards. >>>>>> >>>>>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public >>>>>> school >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really >>>>>> really >>>>>> left. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >>>>>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >>>>>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has >>>>>>> autism >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> aschool for autistic kids! >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > > > -- > Soprano Singer > www.sandragayer.com > > Broadcast Presenter > > www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 16:35:35 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:35:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <52804983.4020001@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <005601cedefc$0dfc0c70$0902a8c0@S0032244625> My parents fought the school s ystem, and so did my vision teacher. I went to our blind school, and did not thrive there, but when I went to public school, I thrived both socially and accademically RJ. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > RJ: > I see some pros and cons to this. > First, a blind school would theoretically allow someone to be given all > the accomadations they need. Without parents who are willing to really > fight, many times children in the public school system do not get > everything they need. My parents went to bat for me so many times in > public schools--first they wanted to transport me on the special ed bus > to a school where they had special ed kids and a room just for them. > When I finally entered school, it was after a lot of argument; something > which a lot of parents may not be aware they can do, or want to do. Even > after I was in to the public school system, there were many times in > middle school and even high school where I did not have the materials I > needed. > > My issues against the school are along the same lines as what you've > noted. I feel like a lot of people come out with many blindisms that may > not work so well in the public. This isn't to say that the public school > is the end-all be-all for this, because it took my parents and teachers > working with me to keep me from walking with my head down, but I feel > like more exposure to the public is always a plus. Along the same line, > I believe that having everything brailled for you every day no matter > what is going to prepare you for nothing. I am able to work with my > professors and advocate mainly because I had to advocate for myself in > high school when I was not getting the materials I needed to get my work > done. I think also, schools for the blind serve a duel purpose of > allowing the parent to not have to "take care" of the kid, as well as > allowing them to brush off the responsibility on someone else. Sometimes > this is intentional, others it may just be because there is a huge lack > of resources for parents of blind children. > > I tried going to a school for the blind for about 6 months before I gave > it up. While accomidations were great, I really missed the interaction I > received with friends I made in public schools. > On 11/10/2013 9:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 16:45:38 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:45:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <2A0A5BB9AF9B4058AA896ECD93A781F4@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <006901cedefd$73c97dc0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> I attended our states rehabilitation center, and it was not a good expierence. When I came home, my aunt who works with people with disabili taught me the skills that I wasn't taught from the center. She usd structured discovery theory although at the time she nor I didn't have a clue what it was. My aunt would not allow me to go sighted guide. She'd make me use my cane. Our rehab agency would tell my aunt she didn't have the training in order to help a blind person, but she didn't listen to them and I am better off today because she didn't listen to a NAC accredited agency RJties ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > RJ, > Oh, I could write a book to answer this question. There are so many answers. > Think about what blind people face. We face lack of training in school > growing up such as kids not learning braille and use of a white cane. We > face lack of opportunity from being in sheltered homes and over protective > parents. > > We face lack of work skills from not getting jobs as teens. How many high > school students do you know who have jobs? > I know zero blind students having jobs. > We face social barriers too. > > So why do people attend centers? > It is because we need training to survive. > Some specific reasons are these. > First, a person needs the braille, technology, living and work skills to > make a living. > Second, a person needs more opportunity to practice such skills and get > confident. > Third, a person needs to socialize by doing normal activities in the > community. > Fourth, a person needs to be challenged to do more than they thought > possible and have the spirit to confront societal misconceptions. > Finally, we need to thrive in a sighted society and centers help us do > that. > > I'm curious. Based on your question, I suspect you did not attend a center. > So how did you learn your skills? Parents? Home rehab teachers? > Do you use all the tools of blindness? Not sure if you have any vision. > > I'm considering a center in fact, although not nfb related as I am > uncomfortable with some nfb policies at centers. I'm certainly not a hard > core nfb person, although I'm a member and take what I like of the > philosophy for myself. > > Your question does raise good points. No other disability has so many > centers dedicated for training. > I guess there are centers for blind people because we need such specialized > training to live well that providing training via community based programs > simply does not cut it well for most people. > > However, if blind people get the good training on their own or via community > based programs like lighthouses for the blind, all the better. No need then > to take time away from home and life to attend a center. > But for those who need it, I'm glad many centers exist. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 9:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people > to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do > we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for > autistic kids! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 16:50:45 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:50:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Minh, You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that training centers are necessary. I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a blind person because you received training or carry yourself with confidence, but your chances certainly are better. And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in school, employment and life in general. Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the experience. Minh From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 16:56:24 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC><4BD70011-0FB5-4B45-A056-C75C130DA809@gmail.com> <009001cede92$735784b0$5a068e10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0@S0032244625> I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and she has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training center due to her having a child. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > I can totally agree that interacting with fellow blind peers is a healthy > thing. I'm just not sure a training program has to be the way to achieve > that level of interaction. I never attended a training program, NFB or > otherwise, and far be it from me to tell anyone what they ought or ought not > to do. My advice for whatever it's worth is that if you want to go, do it > right after high school. It's harder to make it a priority the more > responsibilities you accumulate, and after you become gainfully employed, > forget about it. Me, I'm surprised the traditional training model still > exists. There ought to be some sort of a weekend option for working > professionals who would not mind learning woodwork and such. Not everyone > enrolls in a program with the intention of proving themselves at Square 1. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:42 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > That is an awesomee point. Meeint people who are like you does fill a void > that sighted people don't have to overcome. I remember being about seven or > eight. One morning when my mom came to wake me, I remember telling her that > I felt like an endangered species because no one was like me. Those were my > words. Looking back on it, I can't imagine how my mom must have felt after > hearing those seemingly innocent words. > > On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Ashley Bramlett > wrote: > > > Valerie, > > Excellent points! > > I thought of the learning point you made after sending my email. > > Sighted kids learn so much by observation. They take it in and do not > realize they have learned. > > But blind kids need to be shown or told how to do things. So, we need more > training. > > I think your reason for schools for the blind makes a lot of sense. > > > > Another reason for training centers is opportunity to meet other blind > people. > > At centers you learn together, have parties together, and share stories > together. > > This social bonding with peers helps one adjust to blindness or adjust to > independence if you were blind your whole life. > > The social aspect of meeting people who have gone through what you are > > going through is very powerful. You actually have friends there who > identify with your feelings for once. > > Too often, blind people feel lonely or feel like no one understands them. > I know students in school who know few other blind people and none their > age. > > Sure we can have sighted friends, but having blind friends does help in > talking about common problems. > > So centers fill a social void. All this socialization will hopefully help > one's self esteem. > > > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Greetings, > > > > This could get ugly. haha. > > > > I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through > modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to > situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don't get such > visual feedback and our sighted peers either don't know how, or don't think > to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless > they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of > doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets > or cooking seem like a "Duh" moment, but in order for to seem like that, we > must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. > > > > I don't usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire > > lives, say, "Oh i taught myself this or that". Sometimes it may be > > true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i'm > > working on a psych paper. it shows. :D > > > > For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult > it must be for them to have to see the world differently.no pun intended. > > > > You mentioned autistic children.most autistic children are treated > differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless > their autism is mild enough where they can get away with "normalcy". I > could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. > > > > In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents > thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i > cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a > school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a > mistake. I'm sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It's a > valid concern, I think. > > > > Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a > more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only > went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind > people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn't to say > that PE classes at public schools can't modify their curriculum, but many > aren't going to do it just for one student, or that's how it was when i was > in high school, but I'm sure things have changed in the past six years. > > > > Back to the training programs, many people have heard, "you can't do this. > you're blind" their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones > sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. > This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For > those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, > but who can say. > > > > I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in > > anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur > wrote: > > > >> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind > people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real > world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to > aschool for autistic kids! > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gma > >> il.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmai > > l.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Mon Nov 11 17:03:59 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:03:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC><4BD70011-0FB5-4B45-A056-C75C130DA809@gmail.com> <009001cede92$735784b0$5a068e10$@gmail.com> <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <52810DFF.6090409@tysdomain.com> Is this an issue with training centers? It has already been pointed out that they are hard for people to just up and leave. On 11/11/2013 11:56 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and she > has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training center > due to her having a child. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:59 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> I can totally agree that interacting with fellow blind peers is a healthy >> thing. I'm just not sure a training program has to be the way to achieve >> that level of interaction. I never attended a training program, NFB or >> otherwise, and far be it from me to tell anyone what they ought or ought > not >> to do. My advice for whatever it's worth is that if you want to go, do it >> right after high school. It's harder to make it a priority the more >> responsibilities you accumulate, and after you become gainfully employed, >> forget about it. Me, I'm surprised the traditional training model still >> exists. There ought to be some sort of a weekend option for working >> professionals who would not mind learning woodwork and such. Not everyone >> enrolls in a program with the intention of proving themselves at Square 1. >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie > Gibson >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:42 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> That is an awesomee point. Meeint people who are like you does fill a > void >> that sighted people don't have to overcome. I remember being about seven > or >> eight. One morning when my mom came to wake me, I remember telling her > that >> I felt like an endangered species because no one was like me. Those were > my >> words. Looking back on it, I can't imagine how my mom must have felt after >> hearing those seemingly innocent words. >> >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Ashley Bramlett >> wrote: >> >>> Valerie, >>> Excellent points! >>> I thought of the learning point you made after sending my email. >>> Sighted kids learn so much by observation. They take it in and do not >> realize they have learned. >>> But blind kids need to be shown or told how to do things. So, we need > more >> training. >>> I think your reason for schools for the blind makes a lot of sense. >>> >>> Another reason for training centers is opportunity to meet other blind >> people. >>> At centers you learn together, have parties together, and share stories >> together. >>> This social bonding with peers helps one adjust to blindness or adjust > to >> independence if you were blind your whole life. >>> The social aspect of meeting people who have gone through what you are >>> going through is very powerful. You actually have friends there who >> identify with your feelings for once. >>> Too often, blind people feel lonely or feel like no one understands > them. >> I know students in school who know few other blind people and none their >> age. >>> Sure we can have sighted friends, but having blind friends does help in >> talking about common problems. >>> So centers fill a social void. All this socialization will hopefully > help >> one's self esteem. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson >>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> Greetings, >>> >>> This could get ugly. haha. >>> >>> I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly > through >> modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to >> situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don't get such >> visual feedback and our sighted peers either don't know how, or don't > think >> to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless >> they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways > of >> doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing > streets >> or cooking seem like a "Duh" moment, but in order for to seem like that, > we >> must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. >>> I don't usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire >>> lives, say, "Oh i taught myself this or that". Sometimes it may be >>> true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i'm >>> working on a psych paper. it shows. :D >>> >>> For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult >> it must be for them to have to see the world differently.no pun intended. >>> You mentioned autistic children.most autistic children are treated >> differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless >> their autism is mild enough where they can get away with "normalcy". I >> could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. >>> In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents >> thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i >> cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a >> school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a >> mistake. I'm sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It's a >> valid concern, I think. >>> Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a >> more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only >> went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind >> people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn't to say >> that PE classes at public schools can't modify their curriculum, but many >> aren't going to do it just for one student, or that's how it was when i > was >> in high school, but I'm sure things have changed in the past six years. >>> Back to the training programs, many people have heard, "you can't do > this. >> you're blind" their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones >> sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. >> This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For >> those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, >> but who can say. >>> I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in >>> anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur >> wrote: >>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to >> aschool for autistic kids! >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gma >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart >>> hlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmai >>> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 17:05:28 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625><25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com><57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> Message-ID: <010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years ago. Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "minh ha" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the experience. Minh On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: > Hi all, > good points thus far, and great discussion. > The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is that > students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that > would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their classmates. > They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for the > blind where in the public school setting these things are not always readily > available . > In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will help > you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in the > world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us to > be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we > lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this should > be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. > So, while the implication one might get is that such learning environments > shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally > speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real world” in a > way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you > otherwise ill equipped to do. > Darian > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 17:14:44 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:14:44 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: First, at least in my experience, attending a training center is not akin to walling yourself away from society for 6 to 9 months. I had more interaction with the world while in training than I did the year-and-a-half I spent losing my sight and subsequent dealing with the situation. I had to travel independently constantly interacting with people. We attended several community events where social interaction was necessary. Every class was designed to incorporate social interaction with the "sighted world." The goal is to learn nonvisual skills in a real-world setting so you can adapt the skills to fit your personal needs and the immediate need of a given situation. A practical application of the skills is allowed through very much living within the real-world while in training. So to say that attending a training center cuts you off from the real world, this is an inaccurate statement. Having said that, I do agree that if confidence building is not essential for you, fewer time could be spent focusing on the nonvisual skills alone. I was fortunate and already had confidence when I attended a training center. After four months, I had learned Braille, JAWS and cane travel, but I was expected to spend at least three more months at the center. I don't think this is the norm, but for those who truly need the skills alone, I think they should be able to go through an accelerated course of sorts focusing on the skills alone. This may make training more amendable to some. I still whole-heartedly support sleep-shade training, and I wouldn't make this optional, but based on my own experience, I think it's possible to learn nonvisual skills sufficiently in less than 9 months. The majority of this time-frame is spent building confidence, and honestly, a handful of us are lucky enough to not require this step. Bridgit From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 17:16:49 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:16:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008b01cedf01$cf47beb0$6dd73c10$@gmail.com> Very true. Everyone has had different experiences and may not have had the ability and the resources to learn or to self-teach themselves. Also, I have taught some consumers who told me that they self-taught themselves JAWS. They had okay basic skills, but tried to come off to me as if they were experts. I quickly showed them that they had a log way to go. A good teacher is a great ghing. Most of us would not have learned without them. Sure, I and the rest of you have self-taught our-selves some things. Good luck teaching yourself jaws skills Cane skills, Braille and home management without some help. You may get one down perfectly, but the others won't be as good . The things that sighted people observe about dress we have to be told, or shown. The centers act as a pool of knowledge in one place, like a huge database. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:51 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Minh, You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that training centers are necessary. I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a blind person because you received training or carry yourself with confidence, but your chances certainly are better. And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in school, employment and life in general. Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the experience. Minh _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From tbrown.brl at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 17:21:16 2013 From: tbrown.brl at gmail.com (tbrown.brl at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 10:21:16 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> <010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Some centers may allow the students to bring their children with them. You would have to check with each individual center. Tom Brown Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:05 AM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > > Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years ago. > Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a > training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "minh ha" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over > the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, > etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to > learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach > me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain > employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can > learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > going to do me any good without the experience. > > Minh > >> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> good points thus far, and great discussion. >> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is > that >> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that >> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their > classmates. >> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for > the >> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always > readily >> available . >> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will > help >> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in > the >> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us > to >> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this should >> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning > environments >> shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally >> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real world” in > a >> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >> otherwise ill equipped to do. >> Darian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 17:18:55 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <52810DFF.6090409@tysdomain.com> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57E61EFBF8BE4F1E8632A858A2F4A524@OwnerPC><4BD70011-0FB5-4B45-A056-C75C130DA809@gmail.com><009001cede92$735784b0$5a068e10$@gmail.com><00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <52810DFF.6090409@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Tyler, No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one due to circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more home based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately using your own equipment and marking them if needed. Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about receiving services from her vr agency? They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who can help her at home. Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she lives in NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there are two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to find them. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Is this an issue with training centers? It has already been pointed out that they are hard for people to just up and leave. On 11/11/2013 11:56 AM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and > she > has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training > center > due to her having a child. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:59 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> I can totally agree that interacting with fellow blind peers is a healthy >> thing. I'm just not sure a training program has to be the way to achieve >> that level of interaction. I never attended a training program, NFB or >> otherwise, and far be it from me to tell anyone what they ought or ought > not >> to do. My advice for whatever it's worth is that if you want to go, do it >> right after high school. It's harder to make it a priority the more >> responsibilities you accumulate, and after you become gainfully employed, >> forget about it. Me, I'm surprised the traditional training model still >> exists. There ought to be some sort of a weekend option for working >> professionals who would not mind learning woodwork and such. Not everyone >> enrolls in a program with the intention of proving themselves at Square >> 1. >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie > Gibson >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:42 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> That is an awesomee point. Meeint people who are like you does fill a > void >> that sighted people don't have to overcome. I remember being about seven > or >> eight. One morning when my mom came to wake me, I remember telling her > that >> I felt like an endangered species because no one was like me. Those were > my >> words. Looking back on it, I can't imagine how my mom must have felt >> after >> hearing those seemingly innocent words. >> >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Ashley Bramlett >> wrote: >> >>> Valerie, >>> Excellent points! >>> I thought of the learning point you made after sending my email. >>> Sighted kids learn so much by observation. They take it in and do not >> realize they have learned. >>> But blind kids need to be shown or told how to do things. So, we need > more >> training. >>> I think your reason for schools for the blind makes a lot of sense. >>> >>> Another reason for training centers is opportunity to meet other blind >> people. >>> At centers you learn together, have parties together, and share stories >> together. >>> This social bonding with peers helps one adjust to blindness or adjust > to >> independence if you were blind your whole life. >>> The social aspect of meeting people who have gone through what you are >>> going through is very powerful. You actually have friends there who >> identify with your feelings for once. >>> Too often, blind people feel lonely or feel like no one understands > them. >> I know students in school who know few other blind people and none their >> age. >>> Sure we can have sighted friends, but having blind friends does help in >> talking about common problems. >>> So centers fill a social void. All this socialization will hopefully > help >> one's self esteem. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Valerie Gibson >>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:05 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> Greetings, >>> >>> This could get ugly. haha. >>> >>> I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly > through >> modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to >> situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we don't get such >> visual feedback and our sighted peers either don't know how, or don't > think >> to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless >> they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways > of >> doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing > streets >> or cooking seem like a "Duh" moment, but in order for to seem like that, > we >> must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. >>> I don't usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire >>> lives, say, "Oh i taught myself this or that". Sometimes it may be >>> true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, i'm >>> working on a psych paper. it shows. :D >>> >>> For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult >> it must be for them to have to see the world differently.no pun intended. >>> You mentioned autistic children.most autistic children are treated >> differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, >> unless >> their autism is mild enough where they can get away with "normalcy". I >> could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. >>> In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents >> thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i >> cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to >> a >> school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a >> mistake. I'm sure this last sentence is what parents must think. It's a >> valid concern, I think. >>> Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a >> more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only >> went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind >> people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isn't to say >> that PE classes at public schools can't modify their curriculum, but many >> aren't going to do it just for one student, or that's how it was when i > was >> in high school, but I'm sure things have changed in the past six years. >>> Back to the training programs, many people have heard, "you can't do > this. >> you're blind" their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones >> sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the >> train. >> This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For >> those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as >> others, >> but who can say. >>> I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in >>> anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur >> wrote: >>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to >> aschool for autistic kids! >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gma >>>> il.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart >>> hlink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmai >>> l.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon Nov 11 17:36:41 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:36:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <75056F76-DFD3-4C9E-B39D-9F7962CB5270@samobile.net> I want to start by saying amen to Sandra. As US citizens, we have a greater degree of choice than most of our brothers and sisters outside of the country. Second, the choice to attend a school for the blind, mainstream, go to a training center, or just do it alone greatly depends on the resources afforded to an individual in their own life circumstances. Could I have survived without training at LCB? Yes. Am I sorry I took a year out of school to attend? No. As good as my blindness skills were at the time, I can honestly say that I made considerable improvement while there. The problem is that we don't know what we don't know and that's dangerous, especially for a blind person in the competitive market. I give credit to myself and the training center for my success. A training center by itself doesn't make someone successful in the areas of daily living. I have seen many people waste their time during training, including those I train in the itinerant system, to believe otherwise is foolish. I know that training has something to offer anyone who fully engages in the enterprise as my own story shows. So I really think it's a matter of what resources you have and the resources you bring to blindness that make a difference. As to the idea that the training center isn't the real world, one could argue that any educational institution isn't the real world. But that's not really what's being said here. Its the idea that being in the so-called blind world isn't the same as being in the real world, otherwise known as the sighted world. I should remind you that we all, the blind and sighted, live in the same world and that we all experience it as reality. When you're hanging out with other blind people, you're suddenly exposed to the same level of privilege afforded to the sighted. I think that's a good thing because then we know what equal feels like and can fight for it. Likewise, we do need to know how to work around the inconveniences of blindness because, like it or not, we are a minority. Neither experience is more real than the other. Neither experience is superior to the other. A well rounded blind person needs both if she or he is going to be truly well adjusted in my opinion. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:56 AM, Sandra Gayer wrote: > > Hello, > I have had to read this thread, listening to people complaining about > having resources which are simply non-existent in England. I live here > and if you'd like to live here as well, I can promise you there are no > such things as "Light Houses" or "Blind Preschool" or, ha ha ha, > "Training Centres" for the blind, unless you count a couple of > dedicated schools for the blind which haven't been closed down yet. In > this country, there are gangs who specialise in guide dog bashing. I > remember a girl who wouldn't leave the house with her cane because > some people in her area found it funny to spit on her. I've never been > to America although I have read about the extraordinary work The NFB > does. If I had access to even half the things you are moaning about, I > would be extatic! I could go on about The NLS and how people this side > of the world aren't permitted access to web Braille, let alone the > hard copy Braille books available but I won't. I could also talk about > how Braille transcription is billed by the hour not the page. Come and > live here for a month and you'll be greatful for what you have. > > Very best wishes, > Sandra. > >> On 11/11/13, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >> Hi to all. I have been reading this thread with great interest. >> After I get my associates of Arts degree in January, I will be going >> to Icrewood in Chicago which is an in state training center to learn >> some indipendent living skills. For me, I need to attend this center >> so I can get the skills I'll need when I leave for college. >> Personally I would have liked to attend an NFB training center, but it >> is very difficult in Illinois to get VOC. rehab to pay for out of >> state services. As for schools for the blind, I was mainstreamed >> through my Junior year of High School then attended the school for the >> blind for 3 years. Personally, I like mainstreaming a lot better. I >> feel the education I received in public school was better than what I >> received at ISVI. I wish I had learned algebra while at ISVI because >> I would have gotten my associates degree a lot quicker and not have >> had to take so many remedial math classes. Like others have already >> stated, it is up to the individual whether to go to a center or not. >> I did receive some daily living skills while at the school for the >> blind, but since I didn't use them when I came back home, I lost them. >> We were never allowed to use the stove or oven unattended which to me >> kind of defeated the purpose of them trying to teach us to cook. >> Anyway have a grat day all, and there are my thoughts for whatever >> they may be worth. >> >>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>> Minh, >>> >>> I think you have a lot of great points. I wish I had been raised with >>> opportunities to build confidence. >>> >>> As for the research, I am excited about the paper that Arielle brought >>> up. When I was justifying to my state that I had the right to an >>> informed choice and to go to an out-of-state training center, Al >>> Spooner at BLIND, Inc. taught me that one success measure is whether a >>> graduate obtains employment or starts school within a year of >>> graduating from training. There are flaws to this. For example, I >>> think one year is a long time, and who says employment obtained is the >>> desired job. Plus, many people go blind as older adults, so one may >>> attend a training center for more daily living skills and decide later >>> that they don't want to work anymore. But it is a quantafiable >>> measure. I think that the NFB training centers have success rates >>> according to these measures in the 90 percentile or higher and the >>> state training enter in NC had a 16% rate according to that measure. >>> But the paper will probably provide more insight on this. >>> Unfortunately there is not a lot of research like this going on, and >>> not a lot of good blindness-related journals to publish in. >>> >>> I would say that going to a training center does not remove you from >>> society. I think that is a misconception. Just as going to class takes >>> up time and working a job takes time, going to training during the day >>> does take time. And there are some field trips that were all day or >>> overnight, but school and work have these requirements as well. I made >>> friends outside the center, volunteered, and explored Minneapolis. I >>> did not choose to work or do an internship during training, but I >>> realize that could have provided another great experience. Once I >>> wasn't in class, my time was mine. I happened to make friends with >>> center students just as you would make friends with neighbors and >>> classmates. I didn't hang out because they were blind or because >>> someone told me I had to. I hung out with them, and the other sighted >>> people I met in Minneapolis because I met them and they were cool >>> people. >>> >>> The NFB training center philosophy is all encompassing. For example, >>> your life outside of class does give you opportunities to practice >>> your skills and you are expected to use your nonvisual techniques at >>> home and in the community. However, I don't think that this >>> experiential part of training meant that my time outside of class >>> wasn't mine, and so therefore, I feel that I was not "removed" from >>> society. >>> >>> I realize that statement was kind of a segue from the original topic, >>> but it is one that I am passionate about. I had several naysayers and >>> people make fun of me for going to training because they perceived it >>> as a time when I would be removing myself from society. But it was >>> just the opposite. It has allowed me to take more advantage of what >>> society has to offer. Someone who already possesses these skills and >>> confidence could then perceive this as unnecessary, but I realized >>> that I needed the opportunity to be successful. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>>> On 11/10/13, minh ha wrote: >>>> Arielle, >>>> I'm really interested in this topic. Is the paper available for >>>> viewing online? I would love to read it. >>>> >>>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> Hi Min, >>>>> >>>>> I think you make some good points and I agree that experience is the >>>>> best teacher. However, I think part of what the centers do is to >>>>> provide opportunities for that experience. Many of us who were >>>>> sheltered didn't even get the chance to try things out, much less >>>>> learn the proper nonvisual way to do them. For example, one thing I >>>>> did for the first time at LCB was light candles. I had never been >>>>> allowed to do anything with matches before I went to LCB. My teacher >>>>> at LCB taught me a few tricks but mostly it was just me being required >>>>> to swallow my fear and strike a match and put it to the candle. >>>>> Through that experience I learned how to tell when the candle was lit >>>>> and how to put the match out safely. That said, I did have decent >>>>> skills before coming to the center and I think I probably could have >>>>> been reasonably successful without center training. But I had >>>>> specialized blindness training at the preschool and in-home >>>>> instruction in daily living skills because my parents didn't feel >>>>> confident enough to teach me a lot of things themselves at home. I do >>>>> think the center gave me a lot of confidence even if I did have skills >>>>> and even though I know how to learn things on my own. >>>>> Also, I combined my center training with a research internship, so I >>>>> don't feel like I put my life on hold. It was just two mornings a week >>>>> so it didn't interfere with classes, but it really helped my resume. I >>>>> probably would not have gotten the research internship if I hadn't >>>>> gone to the center since it was at Louisiana Tech. I know some center >>>>> students have a brief volunteer stint or take a college class while >>>>> they are at the center as part of their training. So it isn't just >>>>> blindness training the whole time. In addition, I had a lot of amazing >>>>> social experiences while I was there that I probably won't have again >>>>> as a working, married woman. >>>>> >>>>> You also ask how success is measured. Regrettably, I think most of the >>>>> evidence is anecdotal. However, Dr. Bell at Louisiana Tech did >>>>> recently conduct a study which showed that NFB center graduates have >>>>> higher employment rates and earn higher incomes than those who >>>>> attended traditional centers or no center at all. Actually, the rates >>>>> were lower among traditional center grads than among those who >>>>> attended no center, but the rates were highest among those who >>>>> attended NFB centers. I have read his paper and as a researcher I >>>>> think the research was conducted well and with as little bias as >>>>> possible. However, it is impossible to tell if the center training >>>>> actually caused the increase in employment or if people who choose to >>>>> go to NFB centers have other attributes that make them more >>>>> employable. More rigorous research has to be done. Furthermore, >>>>> unemployment was still pretty high even among the NFB center >>>>> graduates, so NFB training doesn't completely fix the unemployment >>>>> problem. But it's a step in the right direction. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/10/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>>> Bridgit, >>>>>> You were lucky your parents taught you just as they taught your >>>>>> sisters. >>>>>> That is how it should be. But my experience was the opposite. I had a >>>>>> two >>>>>> parent middle class household. My older brothers learned a little bit >>>>>> by >>>>>> observation. We never did have to do chores because my parents would >>>>>> rather >>>>>> >>>>>> do that. But when my brothers were teens, I recall that they did do >>>>>> chores >>>>>> ocasionally. When holidays came or when we had an ocasional party or >>>>>> guests >>>>>> >>>>>> come such as that time my aunt and cousins came, my brothers did help >>>>>> in >>>>>> chores. >>>>>> However, my parents taught me little about housework and personal >>>>>> care. >>>>>> Did they teach me about manners and behavior? Yes. >>>>>> Did they teach me basic play skills? Yes. I remember my dad describing >>>>>> what >>>>>> >>>>>> a tricycle was and how to ride it and then telling me to ride my bike >>>>>> with >>>>>> training wheels once I got that. >>>>>> They also told me about dinner etiquette such as placing a napkin in >>>>>> your >>>>>> lap and chew with mouth closed. >>>>>> In this regard, I learned about behavior with my brothers. In fact, >>>>>> I've >>>>>> met >>>>>> >>>>>> blind youth who lack this knowledge and its sad to know their parents >>>>>> did >>>>>> not expect this of them. >>>>>> >>>>>> But when it comes to home management skills and personal skills, my >>>>>> parents >>>>>> >>>>>> did not do anything. Only thing is my mom did say black and blue did >>>>>> not >>>>>> go >>>>>> >>>>>> together. Personal skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>>>>> Okay, mom did help me learn to dress myself and very basic stuff but >>>>>> other >>>>>> more advanced dressing skills were taught by my vision teacher. >>>>>> She taught me how to zip a coat and how to button clothes. >>>>>> >>>>>> Many parents just do for their blind kids because its faster and less >>>>>> stressful. >>>>>> So you were quite fortunate your parents taught you. >>>>>> >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Bridget Walker >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:57 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is my take and I warn you it is strong. You talk about Jonny who >>>>>> has >>>>>> autism. Did anyone catch on to the difference in the label. The thread >>>>>> emphasizes this "we as blind people" thing and I know we have had this >>>>>> talk >>>>>> >>>>>> are we really going to put a disability first? This is just me I was >>>>>> born >>>>>> with sight but lost it very early on in life. I actually don't >>>>>> remember >>>>>> much from when I had bits of vision and I'm not totally blind but >>>>>> pretty >>>>>> close. >>>>>> So how do I know what I do? My parents taught me just as they taught >>>>>> my >>>>>> sisters who are sighted and I understood everything. Did it take me >>>>>> longer? >>>>>> >>>>>> Sometimes yes but, for me I did not have to do anything different. >>>>>> That's not to say I did not go to a training center or a school for >>>>>> the >>>>>> blind. >>>>>> I went to a center for two five week programs when my vision was >>>>>> getting >>>>>> worse in my youth. I needed to gain ONM and tech skills. I also needed >>>>>> to >>>>>> learn to cook. As a college student I still fail lol. >>>>>> Finally I went to a school for the blind for two years of high school. >>>>>> That >>>>>> >>>>>> had nothing to do with my inability to reach expectations but my >>>>>> public >>>>>> school gave up. I was classified as having a visual processing >>>>>> learning >>>>>> disability rather then being blind. >>>>>> That bit about schools for the blind being for multiple disabled >>>>>> students >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>> not true. I was in a setting where students were working to state >>>>>> standards. >>>>>> >>>>>> I spent two years there and was able to do work back at my public >>>>>> school >>>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>> graduate with the mainstream students. Lets face it I never really >>>>>> really >>>>>> left. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 10, 2013, at 9:48 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind >>>>>>> people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real >>>>>>> world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has >>>>>>> autism >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>> aschool for autistic kids! >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Soprano Singer > www.sandragayer.com > > Broadcast Presenter > > www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From mistydbradley at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 17:47:01 2013 From: mistydbradley at gmail.com (Misty Dawn Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:47:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625><25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com><57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com><010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: There are some mothers who were able to bring children with them to the Colorado Center for the Blind. I am looking into attending CCB next year, and I was told by the director that I could bring my daughter with me, since I have no one else to care for her while I attend the center, and they also told me that there are other single mothers like me that have brought their children with them. Misty -----Original Message----- From: tbrown.brl at gmail.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Some centers may allow the students to bring their children with them. You would have to check with each individual center. Tom Brown Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:05 AM, "RJ Sandefur" > wrote: > > Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years > ago. > Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a > training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "minh ha" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over > the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, > etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to > learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach > me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain > employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can > learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > going to do me any good without the experience. > > Minh > >> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> good points thus far, and great discussion. >> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is > that >> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that >> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their > classmates. >> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for > the >> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always > readily >> available . >> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will > help >> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in > the >> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us > to >> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >> should >> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning > environments >> shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally >> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real world” in > a >> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >> otherwise ill equipped to do. >> Darian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Mon Nov 11 17:44:42 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: RJ, It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case such as that of your friend. In general, though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might mean for bringing up a child in the long run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a confident independent traveler without putting in some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident traveler, for example, one is going to find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, or to be there for that child. Your friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take care of the child, and there could be other considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to take training seems very short-sighted to me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years ago. >Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >----- Original Message ----- >From: "minh ha" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >going to do me any good without the experience. >Minh >On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> good points thus far, and great discussion. >> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >that >> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that >> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >classmates. >> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for >the >> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >readily >> available . >> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >help >> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in >the >> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us >to >> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this should >> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >environments >> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world in >a >> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >> otherwise ill equipped to do. >> Darian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> >-- >"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >ail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 18:04:16 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:04:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625><25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com><57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com><010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <009801cedf08$7062ab10$51280130$@gmail.com> Thumbs up to CCb then. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Misty Dawn Bradley Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world There are some mothers who were able to bring children with them to the Colorado Center for the Blind. I am looking into attending CCB next year, and I was told by the director that I could bring my daughter with me, since I have no one else to care for her while I attend the center, and they also told me that there are other single mothers like me that have brought their children with them. Misty -----Original Message----- From: tbrown.brl at gmail.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Some centers may allow the students to bring their children with them. You would have to check with each individual center. Tom Brown Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:05 AM, "RJ Sandefur" > wrote: > > Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years > ago. > Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a > training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "minh ha" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over > the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, > etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to > learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach > me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain > employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can > learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > going to do me any good without the experience. > > Minh > >> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> good points thus far, and great discussion. >> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is > that >> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >> that would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their > classmates. >> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >> for > the >> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always > readily >> available . >> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that >> will > help >> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in > the >> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >> us > to >> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can >> we lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that >> this should be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning > environments >> shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally >> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real >> world” in > a >> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >> otherwise ill equipped to do. >> Darian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmai >> l.com > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu > r%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail > .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From mistydbradley at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 18:09:59 2013 From: mistydbradley at gmail.com (Misty Dawn Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 13:09:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> RJ, Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her to bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she is attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center may be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her on that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but the director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend next year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so I can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow me to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your friend may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of the centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on it. Thanks, Misty -----Original Message----- From: Steve Jacobson Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world RJ, It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case such as that of your friend. In general, though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might mean for bringing up a child in the long run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a confident independent traveler without putting in some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident traveler, for example, one is going to find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, or to be there for that child. Your friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take care of the child, and there could be other considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to take training seems very short-sighted to me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years ago. >Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >----- Original Message ----- >From: "minh ha" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >going to do me any good without the experience. >Minh >On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> good points thus far, and great discussion. >> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >that >> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that >> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >classmates. >> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for >the >> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >readily >> available . >> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >help >> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in >the >> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us >to >> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >> should >> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >environments >> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world in >a >> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >> otherwise ill equipped to do. >> Darian >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> >-- >"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >ail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com From jhud7789 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 20:06:31 2013 From: jhud7789 at gmail.com (Joseph Hudson) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:06:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> <010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Hello, I know that at the Kriskell rehabilitation center you can't have anybody staying with you when you come for the real training I know that whenever you go from one of their many trainings you can have family there with you back in participating or how to help you though. Joseph Hudson Email jhud7789 at yahoo.com Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:21 AM, tbrown.brl at gmail.com wrote: > > Some centers may allow the students to bring their children with them. You would have to check with each individual center. > > Tom Brown > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:05 AM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: >> >> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years ago. >> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "minh ha" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >> going to do me any good without the experience. >> >> Minh >> >>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >> that >>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that >>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >> classmates. >>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for >> the >>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >> readily >>> available . >>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >> help >>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in >> the >>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us >> to >>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this should >>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >> environments >>> shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally >>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real world” in >> a >>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jhud7789%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Mon Nov 11 20:48:17 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 14:48:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <52804A70.8010008@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Tyler, You and I have been on other lists and I've read things you have written long before you joined this list, and I know you are a very capable person who is also very resourceful. I don't know how well you travel independently or handle other aspects of blindness so I can't make judgements. I can therefore only relate the role of training centers to my own experience and my firsthand observation of others. The importance of a training center experience goes well beyond just learning particular skills, although they can help one to do it. One can read up on the theory of the touch technique of a cane, how wide to make the arc, how long the cane should be, and all of that, and one could practice such a skill in one's home. In this particular case, a training center can add two more layers to this experience. First, it provides a way for a student to see other students with varying abilities and at different points in the training cycle. One can observe students who can handle situations that one may find difficult and one gets a sense of how one's abilities should evolve over time. The second layer is the provision of an atmosphere where one must use what one learns while one is learning. Often, I feel that the most significant thing I got from the travel training I received, and it was before we had NFB centers, was that the world didn't come to an end if I got lost. Having a perfect cane technique does not guarantee that one won't get lost. A perfect cane technique does very little to make one feel that they can travel in an unfamiliar area, either, although it helps. Handling situations that arise from traveling in an unfamiliar area or dealing with a situation where one had gotten lost has more to do with one's confidence level and one's problem solving skills. These other layers are important in filling the gape between understanding what good cane technique is and truly independent travel. Another area where a training center can help is when one can't find good information as to how to do something. The ability to work with other students and staff to solve a particular problem is significant. I've seen people who are to some extent isolated from other blind people define what blind people are able to do by what that individual can do. On more than one occasion I've seen cases where an individual was critical of what other blind persons were trying to do because that individual felt that since he couldn't do it, it clearly couldn't be done by blind people. Training centers can expand one's horizons by demonstrating that the capabilities of blind people as a group vary greatly, and that one's limitations are far fewer than one might think. Finally, most of us grow up adopting some of society's stereotypes about us. We understand from our personal experience that some of those stereotypes are not accurate, but training centers can help us see that because we may fit certain stereotypes does not mean all blind people fit that stereotype. What this means in the end is that even if we fit a given stereotype, we gain the understanding that perhaps it doesn't have to be that way. It is very difficult to understand possible gas in our knowledge, to know what we do not know. Training centers can provide that information through experience and exposure. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:09:36 -0500, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >Valerie: >I am confused on one point you make. While I did get some basic training >from my school district (and by basic I mean very very basic) and my mom >provided a bit more, a lot of what I did learn I did teach myself. I've >always been able to take some small knowledge of something and put it to >some use--if I have questions, more times than not I can find them out >with Google. I also know other blind people who have lost their sight or >have always been blind who do the same thing. How is this hard to >believe? Do we need someone to show us everything? >On 11/10/2013 10:05 PM, Valerie Gibson wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> This could get ugly. haha. >> >> I think the reason being that people who can see are taught mostly through modeling as children. They watch how their parents act and react to situations and they follow suit. As blind children, we dont get such visual feedback and our sighted peers either dont know how, or dont think to tell us how, things are done. They see the world visually, and unless they can think non visually, they find it difficult to express such ways of doing things like crossing a street. To us, things such as crossing streets or cooking seem like a Duh moment, but in order for to seem like that, we must have had someone tell us how to do things non visually. >> >> I dont usually buy it when people, who have been blind their entire lives, say, Oh i taught myself this or that . Sometimes it may be true, but more often than not, scaffolding has ucurred. Sorry, im working on a psych paper. it shows. :D >> >> For people who have been sighted and who have gone blind, hhow difficult it must be for them to have to see the world differently&no pun intended. >> >> You mentioned autistic children&most autistic children are treated differently than their sighted peers or peers who are not autistic, unless their autism is mild enough where they can get away with normalcy . I could be wrong here. I only know a handful of autistic people. >> >> In the case of blind schools, I believe this starts with the parents thinking that surely a blind school will be able to teach my child what i cannot, and for some kids this may be true. Better send the child off to a school where teachers specialize in disabled children than risk making a mistake. Im sure this last sentence is what parents must think. Its a valid concern, I think. >> >> Another reason may be that schools for the blind offer the child with a more rounded life as far as extra coriculars. It did for me, and I only went my last two years of high school. Sports are adapted so that blind people can participate, unlike your typical PE class. This isnt to say that PE classes at public schools cant modify their curriculum, but many arent going to do it just for one student, or thats how it was when i was in high school, but Im sure things have changed in the past six years. >> >> Back to the training programs, many people have heard, you cant do this. youre blind their entire lives. Training centers, such as the ones sponsored by the NFB, do provide confidence building skills for the train. This, i think, is the most important skill one can gain at a center. For those who have condifence, they may not need the center as much as others, but who can say. >> >> I hope this helps, and if I am speaking that which is incorrect in anything that I have said, please feel free to correct me. :) >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:48 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> >>> Why do we send blind people to training centers? Why do we send blind people to "schools for the blind" We as blind people live in the real world,Why do we do it? You don't see mom sending Johnny who has autism to aschool for autistic kids! >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >-- >Take care, >Ty >http://tds-solutions.net >He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 20:52:54 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:52:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> <010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: All, I love to see threads that provoke such great thoughts and discussions. First, schools for the blind and NFB training centers are totally different things. For the purposes of my response, I will focus only on the training centers aspect of the question. I think that the reasons we encourage people to go to training centers, are similar to the reasons we encourage people to go to college. Think about it, college is not like the real world. and if you are still in college, know, that while it is preparing you and giving you the critical thinking skills, the writing skills, the analytical skills to do well in the real world, it is not the real world. Training centers serve the same purpose. They give us training, tools, specific methodology to approach problems and solve them, and then when you go into the real world, you have a toolbox from which you can pull out the correct tool for the correct task. Not everyone goes to college. And many people, who do not go to college, are extremely successful. There are a number of extremely successful blind people who did not go to training centers. What a lot of them share in common, at least in my experience, are parents, or family members, or close friends, who enforced the notion that blindness was just a trait and not the defining characteristic of their life. These individuals often sought others to help them learn how to do specific things. We do not live in hermetically sealed environments. Everyone on this list knows the value of asking for advice and help when we don't know how to do something. So to say that we learned to do everything totally on our own, and so didn't need to go to a center, might be a bit of an overstatement of the truth. Up to today, I have not gone to an NFB training center. But that is only because I found the NFB early enough in my life, that I got friends who taught me strategies that i could use to do things in an alternative way. I had a great mother, who pushed me to do anything i wanted. She may not have known how exactly I could do algebra as a blind student, but she knew I could do it, and finding the way was up to me. I've gained the confidence to pursue whatever it is that I want to pursue, knowing that there is always a way, and that fear is the only thing that can hold me back. So, why do we send people to a "blind bubble" to learn blindness skills? The same reason we send our young people to an "academic bubble" to be around each other and professors, to conduct very specific and esoteric research, to learn to think critically. Because, submersion in a certain environment, can often give us skills, and methodology we can then apply in a wider context. Thanks. Mary F On 11/11/13, Joseph Hudson wrote: > Hello, I know that at the Kriskell rehabilitation center you can't have > anybody staying with you when you come for the real training I know that > whenever you go from one of their many trainings you can have family there > with you back in participating or how to help you though. > > Joseph Hudson > Email > jhud7789 at yahoo.com Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:21 AM, tbrown.brl at gmail.com wrote: >> >> Some centers may allow the students to bring their children with them. You >> would have to check with each individual center. >> >> Tom Brown >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:05 AM, "RJ Sandefur" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>> ago. >>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "minh ha" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>> >>> Minh >>> >>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>> that >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>> that >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>> classmates. >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for >>> the >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>> readily >>>> available . >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>> help >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in >>> the >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us >>> to >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>> should >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>> environments >>>> shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real world” >>>> in >>> a >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jhud7789%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 21:08:09 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:08:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625><25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com><57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com><010701cedf00$390472f0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <245f01cedf22$20b8ff00$0902a8c0@S0032244625> My aunt pushed me, because she believed that if her mentelly challenged clients could live indepidently that I could as well. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Fernandez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world All, I love to see threads that provoke such great thoughts and discussions. First, schools for the blind and NFB training centers are totally different things. For the purposes of my response, I will focus only on the training centers aspect of the question. I think that the reasons we encourage people to go to training centers, are similar to the reasons we encourage people to go to college. Think about it, college is not like the real world. and if you are still in college, know, that while it is preparing you and giving you the critical thinking skills, the writing skills, the analytical skills to do well in the real world, it is not the real world. Training centers serve the same purpose. They give us training, tools, specific methodology to approach problems and solve them, and then when you go into the real world, you have a toolbox from which you can pull out the correct tool for the correct task. Not everyone goes to college. And many people, who do not go to college, are extremely successful. There are a number of extremely successful blind people who did not go to training centers. What a lot of them share in common, at least in my experience, are parents, or family members, or close friends, who enforced the notion that blindness was just a trait and not the defining characteristic of their life. These individuals often sought others to help them learn how to do specific things. We do not live in hermetically sealed environments. Everyone on this list knows the value of asking for advice and help when we don't know how to do something. So to say that we learned to do everything totally on our own, and so didn't need to go to a center, might be a bit of an overstatement of the truth. Up to today, I have not gone to an NFB training center. But that is only because I found the NFB early enough in my life, that I got friends who taught me strategies that i could use to do things in an alternative way. I had a great mother, who pushed me to do anything i wanted. She may not have known how exactly I could do algebra as a blind student, but she knew I could do it, and finding the way was up to me. I've gained the confidence to pursue whatever it is that I want to pursue, knowing that there is always a way, and that fear is the only thing that can hold me back. So, why do we send people to a "blind bubble" to learn blindness skills? The same reason we send our young people to an "academic bubble" to be around each other and professors, to conduct very specific and esoteric research, to learn to think critically. Because, submersion in a certain environment, can often give us skills, and methodology we can then apply in a wider context. Thanks. Mary F On 11/11/13, Joseph Hudson wrote: > Hello, I know that at the Kriskell rehabilitation center you can't have > anybody staying with you when you come for the real training I know that > whenever you go from one of their many trainings you can have family there > with you back in participating or how to help you though. > > Joseph Hudson > Email > jhud7789 at yahoo.com Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 11:21 AM, tbrown.brl at gmail.com wrote: >> >> Some centers may allow the students to bring their children with them. You >> would have to check with each individual center. >> >> Tom Brown >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 10:05 AM, "RJ Sandefur" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>> ago. >>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "minh ha" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>> >>> Minh >>> >>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>> that >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>> that >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>> classmates. >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for >>> the >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>> readily >>>> available . >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>> help >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in >>> the >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us >>> to >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>> should >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>> environments >>>> shelter people from the “real world”, it is my view that generally >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that “real world” >>>> in >>> a >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jhud7789%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 21:15:22 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:15:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: Message-ID: <248b01cedf23$22e9f350$0902a8c0@S0032244625> If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at Anywhere baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not Joe Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 21:15:51 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:15:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> Message-ID: Hi all, I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my parents thought and what I believe as well. I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual person. However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the time. In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the process. I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions we came up with to work. I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because ultimately it is their independence that is effected. I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at least. Just my thoughts. On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > RJ, > Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center > she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her to > > bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory > setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, > sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay > with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may > have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she is > > attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center may > > be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her on > that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. > I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but the > director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me > work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to > attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend next > > year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me > bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so I > can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow me > to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your friend > > may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of the > > centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on > it. > Thanks, > Misty > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Jacobson > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > RJ, > > It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case such > as that of your friend. In general, > though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might mean > > for bringing up a child in the long > run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a confident > independent traveler without putting in > some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident > traveler, for example, one is going to > find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, or > to be there for that child. Your > friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take care > of the child, and there could be other > considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to take > > training seems very short-sighted to > me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >> ago. >>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "minh ha" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>going to do me any good without the experience. > >>Minh > >>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>that >>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>> that >>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>classmates. >>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for >>the >>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>readily >>> available . >>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>help >>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in >>the >>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us >>to >>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>> should >>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>environments >>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>> in >>a >>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> > > >>-- >>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>ail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 21:18:31 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 21:20:32 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete his job as well as any sighted pastor. On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Minh, >> >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> training centers are necessary. >> >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> school, employment and life in general. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> From: minh ha >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> experience. >> >> Minh >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 21:27:51 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <248b01cedf23$22e9f350$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <248b01cedf23$22e9f350$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917@OwnerPC> RJ, No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a center and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at Anywhere baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not Joe Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Nov 11 21:28:36 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> RJ, They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the answer. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 22:10:53 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government training centers for the blind. There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and I could have benefited from some training. I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and resources to live independently. Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the skills, but this seems like a simple solution. Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and she has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training center due to her having a child. RJ From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 22:20:54 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes the NFB centers. Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you suggest or even offer day programs. The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency working with people with disabilities. Bridgit Message: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Tyler, No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one due to circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more home based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately using your own equipment and marking them if needed. Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about receiving services from her vr agency? They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who can help her at home. Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she lives in NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there are two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to find them. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 22:30:41 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Steve, I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to be further explored. Bridgit Message: 18 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RJ, It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case such as that of your friend. In general, though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might mean for bringing up a child in the long run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a confident independent traveler without putting in some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident traveler, for example, one is going to find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, or to be there for that child. Your friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take care of the child, and there could be other considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to take training seems very short-sighted to me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. Best regards, Steve Jacobson From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 11 22:37:42 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly when written by a blind person. Bridgit From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 22:48:56 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read a bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > RJ, > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the > answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 23:01:16 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> Message-ID: Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until until now. I went to public school all my life and had many opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well instead of waiting on others. Minh On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > person. > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > time. > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > process. > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > we came up with to work. > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > least. > > Just my thoughts. > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >> RJ, >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >> to >> >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >> is >> >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >> may >> >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >> on >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >> the >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >> next >> >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >> I >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >> me >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >> friend >> >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >> the >> >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on >> it. >> Thanks, >> Misty >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve Jacobson >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> RJ, >> >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >> such >> as that of your friend. In general, >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >> mean >> >> for bringing up a child in the long >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >> confident >> independent traveler without putting in >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >> traveler, for example, one is going to >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >> or >> to be there for that child. Your >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >> care >> of the child, and there could be other >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >> take >> >> training seems very short-sighted to >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>> ago. >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "minh ha" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>going to do me any good without the experience. >> >>>Minh >> >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>>that >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>> that >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>classmates. >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>> for >>>the >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>readily >>>> available . >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>>help >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>> in >>>the >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>> us >>>to >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>> should >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>environments >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>> in >>>a >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >> >> >>>-- >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>ail.com >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From theweird1 at mediacombb.net Mon Nov 11 23:15:34 2013 From: theweird1 at mediacombb.net (Loren Wakefield) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit In-Reply-To: <000f01cede95$7824e3e0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <527fa9ed.aa0c310a.0e3d.ffff8849@mx.google.com><58B51344E90F4D1793AC539B786D1031@OwnerPC>, <006401cede7a$a92bcf00$fb836d00$@gmail.com> <000f01cede95$7824e3e0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> Peter, Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told you have excellent info on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM Theweird1 at mediacombb.net Loren Wakefield To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Good evening everyone, He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as guide dog instructors. Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your questions. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hannah, Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which school this is although I plan to find out. Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many teams are fine. I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him or her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole dog user group a bad representation. I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged animal given the advice so far. I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new environment and stress. I hope it’s the right decision. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hannah Chadwick Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Ashley and Josh, Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gmail.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacombb.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Nov 11 23:36:22 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <52804A70.8010008@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my perspective is that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, but you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea of going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of thinking drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd also put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school was in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth the investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not enroll. But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the Latino culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair share around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a vision teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a stickler. I love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed up with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw down my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor came over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and found the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other side of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep shade training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route to get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns could be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not everyone needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that you have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our sighted peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers could do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to take a break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and breathing a blindness independence philosophy. Joe From johnniejduran at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:01:26 2013 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. Message-ID: Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in independently. I have cooked food before, and -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 From zdreicer at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:03:58 2013 From: zdreicer at gmail.com (Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food before and… "Also call me I need to talk to you. Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com From johnniejduran at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:11:12 2013 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? Do I need an advocate? Thanks, JJ From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:11:56 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results In-Reply-To: References: <127569138B574DD3A76550C764666072@EdwardBell> Message-ID: This is the research report I was talking about. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Edward Bell Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech University. Abstract Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of this study was to determine the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of the factors could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in annual earnings between men and women. Education and rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; where higher educational attainment is associated with better employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings was higher than those who did not use these tools. Keywords Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey This study sought to describe the current employment status of individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the literature that analyze the employment situation of people with disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive employment. The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased employment. Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an entire array of education and employment preparation institutions (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that disability status was the variable that presented the strongest negative correlation with employment. The author determined that disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, were less likely to be employed. A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of working were significantly less for respondents with severe disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with women being less likely to be employed. The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment specifically for the blind and VI population. Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. According to the literature, there are several factors that predict employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an integrated school setting for most of one’s schooling was associated with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology training were associated with being employed. In relation to those factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation teaching. In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of employment. Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR services. The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most statistically significant predictors of competitive employment outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with visual impairments who were competitively employed through the state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at closure was for consumers. An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was not a significant factor impacting on earnings. >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of the work and transportation challenges. The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation services helped them to improve their performances, that the services made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that the services helped them to maintain their jobs. Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 data system) showed an average employ­ment rate of 31.79%, which was significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those with a master’s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not only provide the training that leads to employment but since they spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer’s vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor’s job. As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the instructor’s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the instructor’s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional and alternative approaches related to functional independence, individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a measure of functional independence than those trained in the conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by examining the variable of cane size, given that the “NFB” canes are employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of independent living. Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment rates and higher education levels than reading print as original medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille as a primary medium did not increase an individual’s opportunities for employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing updated Braille skills represented an important factor that contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore the use of different reading media. They found out that the most significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education can impact greater growth and evolution. Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that among the reasons participants thought they were successful in overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the employment barriers. According to participants in this study, rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to the new generations. Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable through education or training) could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes of these individuals. Research Questions. The following research questions served as the guiding principles for this study. Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research findings on the subject? Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of employment and wages for this population? Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with higher rates of employment and wages for this population? Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with increased rates of employment and wages for this population? Method Participants The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). Instruments The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 variables, covering (a) general demographics including living situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future research. Procedures All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study was reviewed and approved by the host university’s Institutional Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August 31, 2011. Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. Results Demographics Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample population that comprised this study. The respondents were representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table 1). Table 1 – Demographics Age n Mean SD 1056 46.47 13.81 Range 18-87 Gender Frequency Percent Female 595 56.34 Male 461 43.66 Total 1056 100 Race/Ethnicity Frequency Percent African American, Black 90 8.52 Asian American, Asian 35 3.31 Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) 56 5.3 Native American, Alaska Native 8 0.76 Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander 4 0.38 Other 27 2.56 White or Caucasian 836 79.17 Total 1056 100 Vision Status Frequency Percent Blind 702 66.48 Visually Impaired 354 33.52 Total 1056 100 Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of this population are currently married (45%), while just under two percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). Table 2 – Family and Community Living Situation Frequency percent Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am purchasing 541 51.23 Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property that I pay for 300 28.41 Live at home with parents or in someone else’s home 130 12.31 Live in dormitory or other institution 25 2.37 Share an apartment or rental property with room mates 60 5.68 Total 1056 100 Marital Status Frequency Percent Divorced 107 10.13 Married 475 44.98 Separated 22 2.08 Single 353 33.43 Widow or widower 18 1.7 With significant other person 81 7.67 Total 1056 99.99 Raising Children Frequency Percent No, I have no children 605 57.29 1 child 133 12.59 2 children 176 16.67 3 children 80 7.58 4 children 35 3.31 5 children 11 1.04 6 or more children 16 1.52 Total 1056 100 Population of Your Community Frequency Percent 1-25,000 People 245 23.2 25,001—75,000 People 240 22.73 75,001—150,000 People 121 11.46 150,001—250,000 People 104 9.85 250,001—500,000 People 89 8.43 500,001—1,000,000 People 121 11.46 1,000,001—2,000,001—larger 136 12.88 Total 1056 100.01 Vocational Rehabilitation and Education The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with their state’s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a residential or day program, but that they did not complete their training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received training in their home or school. While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2—78) when they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated “No, the use of a cane was not taught” (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, “I learned a little about cane use” (n = 76, 7.20%); “I was taught using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin” (n = 513, 48.58%); and “I was taught with a long cane that measured between my chin and nose” (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, “A folding cane, that is lower than my chin in height;” 171 individuals (20.26%) said, “A folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;” 249 individuals (29.50%) said, “A rigid cane that is above my chin in height;” 40 individuals (4.74%) said, “A rigid cane, that is lower than my chin in height;” and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they used another type of cane/mobility device. Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3—78). Of the entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read Braille (41.95%). With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and percentage of individuals by educational level before and after rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to increase in their educational attainment. Table 3 -- Education Education Before VR Frequency Percent Education After VR Frequency Percent Less than High School 194 18.37 Less than High School 13 1.23 High School diploma/GED 349 33.05 High School diploma/GED 49 4.64 Some college, but no degree 148 14.02 Some college, but no degree 141 13.35 Associates Degree/AA 50 4.73 Associates Degree/AA 76 7.2 Vocational or Trade school 15 1.42 Vocational or Trade school 53 5.02 Bachelor’s/undergraduate degree 147 13.92 Bachelor’s/undergraduate degree 246 23.3 Master’s/Graduate Degree 72 6.82 Master’s/Graduate Degree 238 22.54 Law Degree 12 1.14 Law Degree 21 1.99 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 17 1.61 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 46 4.36 Not sure or Not applicable 52 4.92 Not sure or Not applicable 173 16.38 Pre Training 1056 100 Post Training 1056 100.01 Consumer and Civic Involvement Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which participants participated in other community and/or civic activities in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic groups. Employment One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary of $35,000. Table 4 – Employment Status Before VR Frequency Percentage After VR Frequency Percentage Full-time employed 192 18.18 Full-Time 393 37.22 Part-time employed 86 8.14 Part-Time 142 13.45 Full-time college or vocational student 119 11.27 Full-Time College 72 6.82 Volunteer part- or full-time 33 3.13 Vol. F-P 45 4.26 Full-time Homemaker 26 2.46 Homemaker 21 1.99 Retired from previous employment 35 3.31 Retired 76 7.2 Unemployed 512 48.48 Unemployed 307 29.07 N/A, I never had a VR case before 53 5.02 Total 1056 99.99 * 1056 100.01 Information was also collected with respect to the availability of fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning available to them through their work. Factors that Impact on Employment The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR services and who should most likely be available for participation in the workforce. Demographic factors. The participant’s age, gender, racial/ethnic classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of participants. Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, RS.0). Those who described themselves as “blind” were employed at a rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as “visually impaired” were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant’s self-reported racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization earning $38,200. Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools used by individuals who are blind or VI. The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the employment status of participants based on the level of education that had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; those having earned a master’s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a master’s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral degree earning $66,900 annually. When participants were asked whether they had completed training at any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a significant difference based on the method or type of training that was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either received training at home, or who received no formal skills training were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these individuals was examined, the data again showed significant differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; those who received their training at conventional centers earned an average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no formal training earned an average of $42,753. Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining—for example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion that those who return for training multiple times have significantly less employment than those who only obtain training a single time (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. More specifically, this research was interested in several specific training variables and their impact on employment. The data demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an “other” device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that Braille has on employment and salary. Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By combining the most salient factors together, the results show even more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. Discussion The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of them could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on employment, the following were found to be the most salient: a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000—a strikingly similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement planning. c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB members. f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this population, with those having graduate-level education being employed at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These results confirm those of Aditya (2004). h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were trained a single time. i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning only $36,000 annually. Implications The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners should know that: a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment need not impede one’s ability to obtain employment. b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money that one can earn. c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good idea. e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes good sense. f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments. References Amato, S. (2009). Challenges and Solutions in Teaching Braille in an Online-Education Model. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(2), 78-80. American Foundation for the Blind (2012). Adults with vision loss. Retrieved from http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?FolderID=2&SectionID=15&TopicID=413&DocumentID=4385 Aditya, R. N. (2004). A comparison of two orientation and mobility certification programs. Unpublished report prepared for the Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), Washington, DC. Baldwin, M. L., & Schumacher, E. J. (2002). A note on job mobility among workers with disabilities. Industrial Relations: A Journal of Economy & Society, 41(3), 430-441. Beck-Winchatz, B., & Riccobono, M. (2008). Advancing participation of blind students in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Advances in Space Research, 42(11), 1855-1858. doi:10.1016/j.asr.2007.05.080. Bennetts, C. (2003). Mentoring youth: trend and tradition. British Journal of Guidance & Counseling, 31(1), 63-76. doi:10.1080/0306988031000086170 Bell, E. C. (2010). Competitive employment for consumers who are legally blind: A 10-year retrospective study. Journal of Rehabilitation Research & Development, 47(2), 109-116. doi:10.1682/JRRD.2009.08.0120 Bell, E. C. (2012). Mentoring transition-age youth with blindness. The Journal of Special Education, 46(3), 170-179. Capella, M. (2001). Predicting earnings of vocational rehabilitation clients with visual impairments. Journal of Rehabilitation, 67(4), 43-47. Capella-McDonnall, M. (2005). Predictors of competitive employment for blind and visually impaired consumers of vocational rehabilitation services. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(5), 303-315. Cavenaugh, B. (1999). Relationship of agency structure and client characteristics to rehabilitation services and outcomes for consumers who are blind. Unpublished manuscript, Mississippi State University, Rehabilitation Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision, Starkville, MS. Cavenaugh, B. S., Giesen, J. M., & Pierce, S. J. (2000). Rehabilitation of visually impaired persons in separate and general agencies. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 94(3), 133-145. Cavenaugh, B., Giesen, J., & Steinman, B. (2006). Contextual effects of race or ethnicity on acceptance for vocational rehabilitation of consumers who are legally blind. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(7), 425-436. Crudden, A., & McBroom, L. (1999). Barriers to employment: A survey of employed persons who are visually impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment and Blindness, 93(6), 341-350. Darensbourg, B. (2013). Predictors of competitive employment of VR consumers with blindness or visual impairments. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation. 38(1), 29-34. doi: 10.3233/JVR-120618 Ferguson, R. (2001). We know who we are: A history of the blind in challenging educational and socially constructed policies: A study in policy archeology. San Francisco, CA: Caddo Gap. Fireison, C., & Moore, J. (1998). Employment Outcomes and Educational Backgrounds of Legally Blind Adults Employed in Sheltered Industrial Settings. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 92(11), 740-47. Golub, D. B. (2006). A model of successful work experience for employees who are visually impaired: The results of a study. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(12), 715-725. Hall, L. J., & McGregor, J. A. (2000). A follow-up study of the peer relationships of children with disabilities in an inclusive school. The Journal of Special Education, 34(3), 114-126. Harris, A. (2008). Messages to take away: Final reflections on residential rehabilitation. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080216.htm Hershenson, D. (1998). Systemic, ecological model for rehabilitation counseling. Rehabilitation Counseling Bulletin, 42(1), 40-50. Jeanmarie, K. & Strauser, D. R. (2000). Job readiness, self-efficacy and work personality: A comparison of trainee and instructor perceptions. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 14(1) 13-21. Leonard, R., D'Allura, T., & Horowitz, A. (1999). Factors associated with employment among persons who have a vision impairment: A follow-up of vocational placement referrals. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 12(1), 33-43. Marks, S., & Feeley, D. (1995). Transition in action: Michigan's experience. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(3), 272-275. Martz, E., & Xu, Y. (2008). Person-related and service-related factors predicting employment of individuals with disabilities. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 28(2), 97-104. Mayo, S., Allen, P. & Deden, J. (2008). A governing philosophy: Strategies for implementing a progressive approach in a center-based environment. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080209.htm Mettler, R. (2008). Cognitive learning theory and cane travel instructors: A new paradigm (2nd ed.). Lincoln, NE: Nebraska Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired. McDonnall, M., & Crudden, A. (2009). Factors affecting the successful employment of transition-age youths with visual impairments. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(6), 329-341. Miller, J. (2002). The Role of Orientation and Mobility Instructors and Rehabilitation Teachers in Enhancing Employment Opportunities for Persons Who Are Visually Impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 96(12), 852-55. Nagle, K. M. (2001). Transition to employment and community life for youths with visual impairments: Current status and future directions. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 95(12), 725-738. National Blindness Professional Certification Board (2012). Structured Discovery Cane Travel. Retrieved from http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/sdct.php Omvig, J. (2002). Freedom for the Blind: The secret is empowerment. Hot Springs, AR: Region VI Rehabilitation Continuing Education Program, University of Arkansas Press. Omvig, J. (2005). The characteristics of an NFB orientation center. Braille Monitor, 48(4). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05/bm0504/bm050403.htm Ozawa, M., & Yeo, Y. (2006). Work Status and Work Performance of People With Disabilities: An Empirical Study. Journal of Disability Policy Studies, 17(3), 180-190. doi:10.1177/10442073060170030601. Papadopoulos, K., & Koutsoklenis, A. (2009). Reading media used by higher-education students and graduates with visual impairments in Greece. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(11), 772-777. Phelps, A. (2005). NFB launches National Center for Mentoring Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: American Foundation for the Blind. U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from http://www.census.gov/ Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social Science, 70(4-A), 1181. Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development relationships and individuals with disabilities. American Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) Exam http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php Director, Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall PO Box 3158 Ruston LA 71272 Office: 318.257.4554 Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) Skype: edwardbell2010 ebell at latech.edu www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness ******************** "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould _______________________________________________ rehab mailing list rehab at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for rehab: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:18:01 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi JJ, I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the class start? Arielle On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > Do I need an advocate? > Thanks, > JJ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:20:00 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing it, but I have also gotten some. Cindy On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read > a > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> RJ, >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > the >> answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> > Minh, >> > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> > skills >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> > people, >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> > training centers are necessary. >> > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >> > to >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> > school, employment and life in general. >> > >> > Bridgit >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> > From: minh ha >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> > how >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >> > my >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> > and >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> > there >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> > experience. >> > >> > Minh >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:33:02 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Hi all, I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most and tend to get it least. I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in the town where the center is located but don't participate in school or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know exactly how. Arielle On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > it, but I have also gotten some. > > Cindy > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >> read >> a >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> RJ, >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get >> the >>> answer. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>> centers >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> > Minh, >>> > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >>> > an >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>> > skills >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>> > people, >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>> > Braille, >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> > training centers are necessary. >>> > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>> > polite, >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >>> > to >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >>> > in >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >>> > of >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> > school, employment and life in general. >>> > >>> > Bridgit >>> > Message: 3 >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> > From: minh ha >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >>> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>> > how >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>> > these >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >>> > my >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >>> > and >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >>> > there >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>> > skills >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> > experience. >>> > >>> > Minh >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From johnniejduran at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 00:41:26 2013 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arielle: Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to them, it might change their mind. Thank you so much Arielle! JJ On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi JJ, > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > class start? > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >> Do I need an advocate? >> Thanks, >> JJ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Nov 12 01:43:40 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, jJ, What the hell is a para? for today, Car 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >Arielle: >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >them, it might change their mind. >Thank you so much Arielle! >JJ > >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi JJ, > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > class start? > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > >> Do I need an advocate? > >> Thanks, > >> JJ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >8th Grade Student >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >the NFB. >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >Instagram: jj_duran13 >Skype: jj.duran13 >Kik: jjd_13 > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 01:48:11 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:48:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: <52818808.854ae50a.1516.00bbSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <52818808.854ae50a.1516.00bbSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: You could've done without the language, but a para is somebody who helps a student one on one. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > Hi, jJ, > > What the hell is a para? > for today, Car > 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >> Arielle: >> Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >> situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >> required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >> me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >> participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >> met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >> was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >> in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >> I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >> another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >> them, it might change their mind. >> Thank you so much Arielle! >> JJ >> >> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> > Hi JJ, >> > >> > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of >> > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? >> > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should >> > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your >> > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting >> > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate >> > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI >> > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are >> > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI >> > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a >> > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this >> > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can >> > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the >> > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the >> > class start? >> > >> > Arielle >> > >> > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >> >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >> >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >> >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed >> >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >> >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >> >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >> >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >> >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I >> >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >> >> Do I need an advocate? >> >> Thanks, >> >> JJ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> -- >> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >> 8th Grade Student >> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >> the NFB. >> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >> Instagram: jj_duran13 >> Skype: jj.duran13 >> Kik: jjd_13 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 01:52:27 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:52:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82BE1FBD7259411ABA7E5329A7D57CDB@OwnerPC> Bridgit, I know options are not as readily available. That is why I asked rj if this lady had looked at other options. I am fully aware that options are scarce. In VA, you either go to the center or receive field training which is so infrequent that it will not help much. I believe we need other options. If you have children or care for parents or something family related, its very hard to leave and go to training. I wish there were more day centers for people to go to and then they can take care of business after training at night. I think its terrible about the funding. Yes, I know that vr does not fund training for seniors and those with no employment goal. In my state, we have terrible services for home based service. You can go to the state residential center in richmond va. But, if you cannot, or such center does not meet your needs, little options exist. Every office has field staff, but their caseloads are way, way too high. We have home based O&M and rehab teachers. However, they come so in frequently that little learning can occur. I think a volunteer system is an excellent idea. We actually have that for technology training. Those in the DC area meaning DC, northern VA, and MD have the opportunity to partake in assistive technology training at the Martin Luther King library in DC on G street. But this means they have to have transportation there and be willing to get out of the house which some newly blind people are not able or willing to do and if you're sick, well that is an issue too. So, those who can go to the MLK library can participate in volunteer assistive tech training. They can learn jaws, Zoomtext, braille notetakers, scanners, and talking book players. Additionally, the MLK library offers a IOS training on certain tuesdays. You can have training on the apple devices or even android now. Android is very new and they have few volunteers for that. If that wasn't enough, the MLK library also offers technology camps for youth, or at least they used to. They offer a braille book club on one Saturday a month. Also, they offer seminars on technology and recreation for those who are hearing impaired or vision impaired; separate seminars since our needs are different and these are free. I am quite upset that funding is not available for services from the dc lighthouse in my county, yet in the next county it is. I want to partake in some advanced computer training from the columbia lighthouse for the blind. But no funding is covered in my area and it would leave me paying out of pocket. I wish more volunteer programs existed like at MLK library for other areas of life like teaching braille. Totally good points. I'm glad you healed and were able to attend the iowa center. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:20 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Ashley, The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes the NFB centers. Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you suggest or even offer day programs. The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency working with people with disabilities. Bridgit Message: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Tyler, No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one due to circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more home based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately using your own equipment and marking them if needed. Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about receiving services from her vr agency? They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who can help her at home. Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she lives in NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there are two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to find them. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 02:05:39 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 21:05:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625><18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <3CF0DD21A1F84E7D903F26CA664BD967@OwnerPC> RJ, Just because you did not get the job skills does not mean other training centers don't address this. What center was this? Clearly, it was not comprehensive. Your statement earlier about centers not teaching social and job skills is false. Most centers address this. Also, I contend that you have real world opportunities at centers you would not otherwise have. I don't know how anyone can think you are not in the real world at a center. You and someone else said we are cut off from society in training. Acording to this mindset, we are like prisoners in training. Not so. You get recreation activities at centers, even the very traditional centers like carrol center. You go out and travel on O&M lessons. Most centers let you leave campus with friends after the training day. You can go to the park, movies, mall, shopping or whatever; its your time after the training day ends. Centers teach job skills such as resumes, mock interviews, how to dress and self advocacy. I heard that Blind Inc encourages job shadowing if you have not declared a career goal. Cleveland sight center has a huge employment staff. They offer job preparation skills like resumes and cover letters as well as support on the job i f needed. Not only that, but they offer customer service training too for those interested in that. Note, I have not attended those centers, but am going on what I heard and read. Sorry to hear you had a bad center experience. I did too, to some extent, at the richmond center, but not all was bad. I took what I could from it. But one bad center experience does not make all centers bad. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read a bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > RJ, > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the > answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From treyman19 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 02:15:08 2013 From: treyman19 at gmail.com (Trey Bradley) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:15:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for a focus 40 blue or a MacBook Air or pro Message-ID: Hi I am looking for a focus 40 blue or a MacBook Air or pro for a two years old a Romeo Attashay Braille embosser I also have a JAWS 13 license and a duxbury license for the latest version I ALS Sent from my iPhone From ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 02:17:31 2013 From: ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com (ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:17:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <82BE1FBD7259411ABA7E5329A7D57CDB@OwnerPC> References: <82BE1FBD7259411ABA7E5329A7D57CDB@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <088A7A16-FBB7-4FCC-8B9D-0A523F5A57FB@gmail.com> Don't remember who said this, but what are your suggestions as far as lighting candles non-visually? My Center basically told me not to do it. Lora Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:52 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Bridgit, > I know options are not as readily available. That is why I asked rj if this lady had looked at other options. > I am fully aware that options are scarce. In VA, you either go to the center or receive field training which is so infrequent that it will not help much. > > I believe we need other options. If you have children or care for parents or something family related, its very hard to leave and go to training. > > I wish there were more day centers for people to go to and then they can take care of business after training at night. > I think its terrible about the funding. Yes, I know that vr does not fund training for seniors and those with no employment goal. > > In my state, we have terrible services for home based service. > You can go to the state residential center in richmond va. > But, if you cannot, or such center does not meet your needs, > little options exist. Every office has field staff, but their caseloads are way, way too high. > We have home based O&M and rehab teachers. > However, they come so in frequently that little learning can occur. > I think a volunteer system is an excellent idea. > We actually have that for technology training. Those in the DC area meaning DC, northern VA, and MD > have the opportunity to partake in assistive technology training at the Martin Luther > King library in DC on G street. But this means they have to have transportation there and be willing to get out of the house which some newly blind people are not able or willing to do and if you're sick, well that is an issue too. > So, those who can go to the MLK library can participate in volunteer assistive tech training. > They can learn jaws, Zoomtext, braille notetakers, scanners, and talking book players. > Additionally, the MLK library offers a IOS training on certain tuesdays. > You can have training on the apple devices or even android now. Android is very new and they have few volunteers for that. > > If that wasn't enough, the MLK library also offers technology camps for youth, or at least they used to. > They offer a braille book club on one Saturday a month. Also, they offer seminars on technology and recreation for those who are hearing impaired or vision impaired; separate seminars since our needs are different and these are free. > I am quite upset that funding is not available for services from the dc lighthouse in my county, yet in the next county it is. > I want to partake in some advanced computer training from the columbia lighthouse for the blind. > But no funding is covered in my area and it would leave me paying out of pocket. > > I wish more volunteer programs existed like at MLK library for other areas of life like teaching braille. > Totally good points. I'm glad you > healed and were able to attend the iowa center. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:20 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Ashley, > > The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a > major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes > the NFB centers. > > Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend > as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most > are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough > to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow > people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other > institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you > suggest or even offer day programs. > > The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government > doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or > the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will > not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency > working with people with disabilities. > > Bridgit > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Tyler, > No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one > due to > circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. > It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more > home > based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately > > using your own equipment and marking them if needed. > > Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about > receiving > services from her vr agency? > They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who > can > help her at home. > Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she > lives in > NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there > are > two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. > Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to > find > them. > > Ashley > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 02:28:41 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:28:41 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <088A7A16-FBB7-4FCC-8B9D-0A523F5A57FB@gmail.com> References: <82BE1FBD7259411ABA7E5329A7D57CDB@OwnerPC> <088A7A16-FBB7-4FCC-8B9D-0A523F5A57FB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Lora, >From what I remember, I first lit the match and listened for the crack sound and also put my other hand a few feet away to check for warmth coming from the match. I then used my other hand to feel for the base of the candle, put the match up to the candle wick and would wait a few seconds, move the match away and feel with my other hand above the candle to see if there was heat coming up from it. It was a bit of trial and error to see when the candle was lit, and perhaps others with more experience have better suggestions for that. The main nonvisual trick I was taught was for putting out the matches. I was taught to drop them into a bowl of water so I didn't accidentally put a lit match down onto something else that could burn. I admit I have not practiced it much since getting out of the center but I think it is safe and effective as long as you keep the space clear of clutter, take your time and use the bowl of water. I also tried unsuccessfully once to light a lighter. I thought that was really difficult but that was more because I have fine motor issues than because of blindness. I am curious if others have found good techniques for lighters. However, I don't think the lighter gives off as much heat as a match so it is probably harder to tell when it is lit if you have no vision. I would recommend sticking with matches, and using long ones in case it takes a while to get the candle to light. Best of luck! Arielle On 11/11/13, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: > Don't remember who said this, but what are your suggestions as far as > lighting candles non-visually? My Center basically told me not to do it. > > Lora > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:52 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> wrote: >> >> Bridgit, >> I know options are not as readily available. That is why I asked rj if >> this lady had looked at other options. >> I am fully aware that options are scarce. In VA, you either go to the >> center or receive field training which is so infrequent that it will not >> help much. >> >> I believe we need other options. If you have children or care for parents >> or something family related, its very hard to leave and go to training. >> >> I wish there were more day centers for people to go to and then they can >> take care of business after training at night. >> I think its terrible about the funding. Yes, I know that vr does not fund >> training for seniors and those with no employment goal. >> >> In my state, we have terrible services for home based service. >> You can go to the state residential center in richmond va. >> But, if you cannot, or such center does not meet your needs, >> little options exist. Every office has field staff, but their caseloads >> are way, way too high. >> We have home based O&M and rehab teachers. >> However, they come so in frequently that little learning can occur. >> I think a volunteer system is an excellent idea. >> We actually have that for technology training. Those in the DC area >> meaning DC, northern VA, and MD >> have the opportunity to partake in assistive technology training at the >> Martin Luther >> King library in DC on G street. But this means they have to have >> transportation there and be willing to get out of the house which some >> newly blind people are not able or willing to do and if you're sick, well >> that is an issue too. >> So, those who can go to the MLK library can participate in volunteer >> assistive tech training. >> They can learn jaws, Zoomtext, braille notetakers, scanners, and talking >> book players. >> Additionally, the MLK library offers a IOS training on certain tuesdays. >> You can have training on the apple devices or even android now. Android is >> very new and they have few volunteers for that. >> >> If that wasn't enough, the MLK library also offers technology camps for >> youth, or at least they used to. >> They offer a braille book club on one Saturday a month. Also, they offer >> seminars on technology and recreation for those who are hearing impaired >> or vision impaired; separate seminars since our needs are different and >> these are free. >> I am quite upset that funding is not available for services from the dc >> lighthouse in my county, yet in the next county it is. >> I want to partake in some advanced computer training from the columbia >> lighthouse for the blind. >> But no funding is covered in my area and it would leave me paying out of >> pocket. >> >> I wish more volunteer programs existed like at MLK library for other areas >> of life like teaching braille. >> Totally good points. I'm glad you >> healed and were able to attend the iowa center. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:20 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> Ashley, >> >> The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a >> major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes >> the NFB centers. >> >> Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend >> as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most >> are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough >> to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow >> people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other >> institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you >> suggest or even offer day programs. >> >> The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government >> doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or >> the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will >> not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency >> working with people with disabilities. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 15 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: , "National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list" >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=response >> >> Tyler, >> No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one >> due to >> circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. >> It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more >> home >> based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately >> >> using your own equipment and marking them if needed. >> >> Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about >> receiving >> services from her vr agency? >> They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who >> can >> help her at home. >> Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she >> lives in >> NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there >> are >> two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. >> Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to >> find >> them. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 02:37:00 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:37:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: References: <52818808.854ae50a.1516.00bbSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi JJ, I am glad that your mother is willing to help you. Teachers do tend to listen to parents, at least they are legally supposed to when it comes to your disability accommodations. Perhaps you can start the class without the para and once your teacher gets to know you she will realize the para is not necessary. Or, you and your mother could meet with her to explain how you cook at home and how you can be involved. I can conference call on that meeting if you think that would help. Best, Arielle On 11/11/13, Josh Gregory wrote: > You could've done without the language, but a para is somebody who helps a > student one on one. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> Hi, jJ, >> >> What the hell is a para? >> for today, Car >> 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>> Arielle: >>> Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >>> situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >>> required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >>> me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >>> participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >>> met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >>> was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >>> in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >>> I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >>> another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >>> them, it might change their mind. >>> Thank you so much Arielle! >>> JJ >>> >>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> > Hi JJ, >>> > >>> > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of >>> > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? >>> > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should >>> > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your >>> > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting >>> > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate >>> > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI >>> > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are >>> > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI >>> > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a >>> > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this >>> > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can >>> > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the >>> > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the >>> > class start? >>> > >>> > Arielle >>> > >>> > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>> >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >>> >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student >>> >> attending >>> >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is >>> >> allowed >>> >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >>> >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >>> >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >>> >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >>> >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that >>> >> I >>> >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >>> >> Do I need an advocate? >>> >> Thanks, >>> >> JJ >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> nabs-l mailing list >>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> > nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >>> 8th Grade Student >>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>> the NFB. >>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>> Instagram: jj_duran13 >>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>> Kik: jjd_13 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 02:45:47 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:45:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One little-known fact about NFB centers is that some people attend them for less than six months. Though at least six months is usually required to get an official graduation ceremony and a bell, a course of 3-5 months or even less can still be beneficial, and in the real world, it really doesn't matter if you receive a bell or not. I know several people who benefited tremendously from attending a center summer program or a 3-month stint in the adult program. I even have a friend who attended CCB for only a month after his wife passed away and he wanted to brush up on his cooking skills even though he was employed and had excellent skills in all the other areas. He paid for the training himself and I think he thought it was worthwhile even for just a month. If you call the center and say you only want to come for three months they aren't going to turn you away. Arielle On 11/11/13, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack > thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it > doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly > when written by a blind person. > > Bridgit > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From gpaikens at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 02:55:30 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 21:55:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: References: <52818808.854ae50a.1516.00bbSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I'm not saying I agree with the idea that you need a TVI or para by your side at all times in such a class, but taking a cooking class would be a wonderful opportunity to master non visual techniques related to cooking. If you are going to go through the process of taking the class and doing the work, you might as well get the most out of the experience. If that means having a TVI come in a couple times a week to support your teacher and demonstrate non visual techniques, I think that would be an ideal solution. Whatever you do, make sure you have access to people who can help you learn non visual ways to complete the same cooking tasks as your peers. Best of luck. -Greg On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi JJ, > > I am glad that your mother is willing to help you. Teachers do tend to > listen to parents, at least they are legally supposed to when it comes > to your disability accommodations. Perhaps you can start the class > without the para and once your teacher gets to know you she will > realize the para is not necessary. Or, you and your mother could meet > with her to explain how you cook at home and how you can be involved. > I can conference call on that meeting if you think that would help. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, Josh Gregory wrote: >> You could've done without the language, but a para is somebody who helps a >> student one on one. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi, jJ, >>> >>> What the hell is a para? >>> for today, Car >>> 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>>> Arielle: >>>> Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >>>> situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >>>> required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >>>> me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >>>> participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >>>> met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >>>> was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >>>> in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >>>> I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >>>> another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >>>> them, it might change their mind. >>>> Thank you so much Arielle! >>>> JJ >>>> >>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> Hi JJ, >>>>> >>>>> I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of >>>>> experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? >>>>> Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should >>>>> participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your >>>>> side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting >>>>> Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate >>>>> for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI >>>>> as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are >>>>> supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI >>>>> and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a >>>>> para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this >>>>> arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can >>>>> still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the >>>>> class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the >>>>> class start? >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>>>>> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >>>>>> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student >>>>>> attending >>>>>> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is >>>>>> allowed >>>>>> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >>>>>> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >>>>>> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >>>>>> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >>>>>> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that >>>>>> I >>>>>> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >>>>>> Do I need an advocate? >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> JJ >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >>>> 8th Grade Student >>>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>>> the NFB. >>>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>>> Instagram: jj_duran13 >>>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>>> Kik: jjd_13 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 03:02:46 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:02:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <82BE1FBD7259411ABA7E5329A7D57CDB@OwnerPC> <088A7A16-FBB7-4FCC-8B9D-0A523F5A57FB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <17818C7C-DD4E-43A0-9F1E-34EEE9472416@gmail.com> I find that most of my candles come in some kind of glass jar that can be very helpful in giving me a point of reference. Like Arielle said, I put my hand up to the match to make sure it is burning strongly and then find the jar with my other hand. I then put the lit match down into the jar and "feel" around for the wick with the lit end of the match. As far as I can tell, running the lit match over the surface of the wax does no harm and eventually I find the wick. I hold the match there for about 3 seconds and then remove it. I place my hand several inches above the candle to see if I lit it and then just blow out the match. The bowl of water is probably a good idea but I generally just hold the match for 15 or 20 seconds, long enough for it to cool, before setting it down or throwing it away. Maybe that's not the best method but it has worked for me. -Greg On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:28 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Lora, > > From what I remember, I first lit the match and listened for the crack > sound and also put my other hand a few feet away to check for warmth > coming from the match. I then used my other hand to feel for the base > of the candle, put the match up to the candle wick and would wait a > few seconds, move the match away and feel with my other hand above the > candle to see if there was heat coming up from it. It was a bit of > trial and error to see when the candle was lit, and perhaps others > with more experience have better suggestions for that. The main > nonvisual trick I was taught was for putting out the matches. I was > taught to drop them into a bowl of water so I didn't accidentally put > a lit match down onto something else that could burn. I admit I have > not practiced it much since getting out of the center but I think it > is safe and effective as long as you keep the space clear of clutter, > take your time and use the bowl of water. I also tried unsuccessfully > once to light a lighter. I thought that was really difficult but that > was more because I have fine motor issues than because of blindness. I > am curious if others have found good techniques for lighters. However, > I don't think the lighter gives off as much heat as a match so it is > probably harder to tell when it is lit if you have no vision. I would > recommend sticking with matches, and using long ones in case it takes > a while to get the candle to light. Best of luck! > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: >> Don't remember who said this, but what are your suggestions as far as >> lighting candles non-visually? My Center basically told me not to do it. >> >> Lora >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:52 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Bridgit, >>> I know options are not as readily available. That is why I asked rj if >>> this lady had looked at other options. >>> I am fully aware that options are scarce. In VA, you either go to the >>> center or receive field training which is so infrequent that it will not >>> help much. >>> >>> I believe we need other options. If you have children or care for parents >>> or something family related, its very hard to leave and go to training. >>> >>> I wish there were more day centers for people to go to and then they can >>> take care of business after training at night. >>> I think its terrible about the funding. Yes, I know that vr does not fund >>> training for seniors and those with no employment goal. >>> >>> In my state, we have terrible services for home based service. >>> You can go to the state residential center in richmond va. >>> But, if you cannot, or such center does not meet your needs, >>> little options exist. Every office has field staff, but their caseloads >>> are way, way too high. >>> We have home based O&M and rehab teachers. >>> However, they come so in frequently that little learning can occur. >>> I think a volunteer system is an excellent idea. >>> We actually have that for technology training. Those in the DC area >>> meaning DC, northern VA, and MD >>> have the opportunity to partake in assistive technology training at the >>> Martin Luther >>> King library in DC on G street. But this means they have to have >>> transportation there and be willing to get out of the house which some >>> newly blind people are not able or willing to do and if you're sick, well >>> that is an issue too. >>> So, those who can go to the MLK library can participate in volunteer >>> assistive tech training. >>> They can learn jaws, Zoomtext, braille notetakers, scanners, and talking >>> book players. >>> Additionally, the MLK library offers a IOS training on certain tuesdays. >>> You can have training on the apple devices or even android now. Android is >>> very new and they have few volunteers for that. >>> >>> If that wasn't enough, the MLK library also offers technology camps for >>> youth, or at least they used to. >>> They offer a braille book club on one Saturday a month. Also, they offer >>> seminars on technology and recreation for those who are hearing impaired >>> or vision impaired; separate seminars since our needs are different and >>> these are free. >>> I am quite upset that funding is not available for services from the dc >>> lighthouse in my county, yet in the next county it is. >>> I want to partake in some advanced computer training from the columbia >>> lighthouse for the blind. >>> But no funding is covered in my area and it would leave me paying out of >>> pocket. >>> >>> I wish more volunteer programs existed like at MLK library for other areas >>> of life like teaching braille. >>> Totally good points. I'm glad you >>> healed and were able to attend the iowa center. >>> >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:20 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> Ashley, >>> >>> The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a >>> major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes >>> the NFB centers. >>> >>> Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend >>> as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most >>> are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough >>> to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow >>> people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other >>> institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you >>> suggest or even offer day programs. >>> >>> The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government >>> doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or >>> the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will >>> not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency >>> working with people with disabilities. >>> >>> Bridgit >>> Message: 15 >>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 >>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> To: , "National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list" >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=response >>> >>> Tyler, >>> No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one >>> due to >>> circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. >>> It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more >>> home >>> based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately >>> >>> using your own equipment and marking them if needed. >>> >>> Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about >>> receiving >>> services from her vr agency? >>> They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who >>> can >>> help her at home. >>> Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she >>> lives in >>> NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there >>> are >>> two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. >>> Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to >>> find >>> them. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 03:04:35 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:04:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] training and gaps in a resume Message-ID: <4BA7256D54E64FB8A7F6A0E1D8FEA15F@OwnerPC> Hi all, I wanted to ask you all about something that arose in the training centers not the real world thread. I thought I’d ask this separately as it’s a big issue I pondered. How do you deal with gaps in your resume? What if you went to training? Have you listed this in a resume? I went to our state center, and may go again out of state because as I mentioned, I did not get everything I needed in state. But having been to training leaves gaps. How can we use these gaps to our advantage? We cannot put training on a resume as we do not want to reveal blindness. So what do you do if you had a gap in the resume? What if you were in training? If you had a gap because you simply could not find a job and were not in school, what to say is a quandry. Volunteering may be an option if you did something ongoing. I’ll ask about these quotes below. It caught my attention! Cindy said, “I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage.” Cindy, can you give examples? Where are you employed? How did you say it was an advantage? Someone else said they used the training center as an advantage, although I am not sure who it is. For now, I have a gap in my resume when I was in training. I don’t think its long enough to hinder me particularly in today’s economy when everyone has gaps. But I did get to wondering how we can better tie training to employment once we speak to the employer. Ashley From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 03:08:17 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:08:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: References: <52818808.854ae50a.1516.00bbSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: That's a good point Greg, although I'm concerned that the TVI wants the para to be in class with JJ. Most paraprofessionals don't know anything about how blind people do things, and I'm not sure how much the average sighted TVI learns about nonvisual cooking techniques, since their main focus is teaching Braille and assistive tech (some TVI's don't even know that much). Perhaps a compromise could be for the TVI to be in class with JJ some of the time, but it sounds like the TVI isn't volunteering to be there herself; she's delegating it to the para who is there to be a pair of eyes, not to teach nonvisual skills. Arielle On 11/11/13, Greg Aikens wrote: > I'm not saying I agree with the idea that you need a TVI or para by your > side at all times in such a class, but taking a cooking class would be a > wonderful opportunity to master non visual techniques related to cooking. > If you are going to go through the process of taking the class and doing the > work, you might as well get the most out of the experience. If that means > having a TVI come in a couple times a week to support your teacher and > demonstrate non visual techniques, I think that would be an ideal solution. > Whatever you do, make sure you have access to people who can help you learn > non visual ways to complete the same cooking tasks as your peers. > > Best of luck. > > -Greg > > > > > On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Hi JJ, >> >> I am glad that your mother is willing to help you. Teachers do tend to >> listen to parents, at least they are legally supposed to when it comes >> to your disability accommodations. Perhaps you can start the class >> without the para and once your teacher gets to know you she will >> realize the para is not necessary. Or, you and your mother could meet >> with her to explain how you cook at home and how you can be involved. >> I can conference call on that meeting if you think that would help. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/11/13, Josh Gregory wrote: >>> You could've done without the language, but a para is somebody who helps >>> a >>> student one on one. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, jJ, >>>> >>>> What the hell is a para? >>>> for today, Car >>>> 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>>>> Arielle: >>>>> Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >>>>> situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >>>>> required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >>>>> me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >>>>> participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >>>>> met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >>>>> was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >>>>> in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >>>>> I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >>>>> another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >>>>> them, it might change their mind. >>>>> Thank you so much Arielle! >>>>> JJ >>>>> >>>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>> Hi JJ, >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot >>>>>> of >>>>>> experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? >>>>>> Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you >>>>>> should >>>>>> participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your >>>>>> side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting >>>>>> Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate >>>>>> for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI >>>>>> as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are >>>>>> supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI >>>>>> and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a >>>>>> para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this >>>>>> arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you >>>>>> can >>>>>> still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in >>>>>> the >>>>>> class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does >>>>>> the >>>>>> class start? >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>>>>>> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >>>>>>> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student >>>>>>> attending >>>>>>> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is >>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >>>>>>> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >>>>>>> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am >>>>>>> good >>>>>>> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >>>>>>> Do I need an advocate? >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> JJ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >>>>> 8th Grade Student >>>>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>>>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>>>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>>>> the NFB. >>>>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>>>> Instagram: jj_duran13 >>>>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>>>> Kik: jjd_13 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From piano.girl0299 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 03:44:20 2013 From: piano.girl0299 at gmail.com (Kelsey Nicolay) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:44:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] community choir question Message-ID: <5281a422.450d320a.3352.ffffb0a8@mx.google.com> Hello, I currently sing in a community choir in my city. I like it a lot and have really become good friends with people in my section. However, I've been in choirs since fourth grade, but I still have trouble understanding vowel shapes. I guess it's because my directors really didn't know how to explain that in a way that made sense. Anyway, the director will tell the group something like: "Oo should look like ah." But if I don't know what that looks like, how am I supposed conform it? So my question to you guys is: Since this is a community choir, do I need to tell someone about this? They put me next to two very strong singers, one of which is a board member. I feel comfortable talking to both of them and they do their best to help me out, but I just feel very uncomfortable bringing this up with anyone. I think this is kind of a silly question to ask your director considering I've been in choir for this long, but I also don't want to stick out either. Should the board know about this so they can figure out how they can help me understand what he's talking about? How can my neighbors unobtrusively show me this during rehearsal? Is there a good tactile clue that I could establish with them to let me know that the director wants the vowels to be more round? If it is at all helpful, I'm a tactile learner as well as an audio learner, so I need someone to actually show me how to do something. Someone who has been in this situation before, please share your thoughts. Thanks in advance, Kelsey Nicolay From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Tue Nov 12 03:56:58 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 03:56:58 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] community choir question In-Reply-To: <5281a422.450d320a.3352.ffffb0a8@mx.google.com> References: <5281a422.450d320a.3352.ffffb0a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1bee4b5c36fd45038681c2c1b093a31e@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Hi, Kelsey! As a chorale singer myself, (I've sung in school choirs all my life,) I can help you. What you need to do is listen to classicly trained singers. What part do you sing? With vowel shapes, annunciation is very important! Think auditoraly! When you sing a Christmas favorite, (I'll use this for an example,) here's how you should sing it! "Oh come, oh come Emmanuel." "Emmanuel, should be sung this way! E-Mon-U-El! Anytime there's a short A, it's kind of like how the British talk! Of, and words that sound like that are annunciated, like "OV." "Israel, shouldn't be sung "Is-ri-el." It's, "Is-Ray-El," (thanks to Sarah Alawami for telling me this!) Listen to how Charlotte Church annunciates her words on the "Voice of an Angel," album. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Kelsey Nicolay [piano.girl0299 at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 9:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] community choir question Hello, I currently sing in a community choir in my city. I like it a lot and have really become good friends with people in my section. However, I've been in choirs since fourth grade, but I still have trouble understanding vowel shapes. I guess it's because my directors really didn't know how to explain that in a way that made sense. Anyway, the director will tell the group something like: "Oo should look like ah." But if I don't know what that looks like, how am I supposed conform it? So my question to you guys is: Since this is a community choir, do I need to tell someone about this? They put me next to two very strong singers, one of which is a board member. I feel comfortable talking to both of them and they do their best to help me out, but I just feel very uncomfortable bringing this up with anyone. I think this is kind of a silly question to ask your director considering I've been in choir for this long, but I also don't want to stick out either. Should the board know about this so they can figure out how they can help me understand what he's talking about? How can my neighbors unobtrusively show me this during rehearsal? Is there a good tactile clue that I could establish with them to let me know that the director wants the vowels to be more round? If it is at all helpful, I'm a tactile learner as well as an audio learner, so I need someone to actually show me how to do something. Someone who has been in this situation before, please share your thoughts. Thanks in advance, Kelsey Nicolay _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 04:31:11 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 21:31:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results References: <127569138B574DD3A76550C764666072@EdwardBell> Message-ID: <1E2DD3EE4F6D417BA986C0945B1CEF24@HP30910210001> thanks arielle for sharing this. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:11 PM Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results This is the research report I was talking about. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Edward Bell Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech University. Abstract Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of this study was to determine the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of the factors could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in annual earnings between men and women. Education and rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; where higher educational attainment is associated with better employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings was higher than those who did not use these tools. Keywords Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey This study sought to describe the current employment status of individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the literature that analyze the employment situation of people with disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive employment. The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased employment. Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an entire array of education and employment preparation institutions (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that disability status was the variable that presented the strongest negative correlation with employment. The author determined that disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, were less likely to be employed. A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of working were significantly less for respondents with severe disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with women being less likely to be employed. The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment specifically for the blind and VI population. Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. According to the literature, there are several factors that predict employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an integrated school setting for most of one’s schooling was associated with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology training were associated with being employed. In relation to those factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation teaching. In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of employment. Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR services. The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most statistically significant predictors of competitive employment outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with visual impairments who were competitively employed through the state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at closure was for consumers. An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was not a significant factor impacting on earnings. >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of the work and transportation challenges. The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation services helped them to improve their performances, that the services made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that the services helped them to maintain their jobs. Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 data system) showed an average employ­ment rate of 31.79%, which was significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those with a master’s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not only provide the training that leads to employment but since they spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer’s vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor’s job. As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the instructor’s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the instructor’s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional and alternative approaches related to functional independence, individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a measure of functional independence than those trained in the conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by examining the variable of cane size, given that the “NFB” canes are employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of independent living. Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment rates and higher education levels than reading print as original medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille as a primary medium did not increase an individual’s opportunities for employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing updated Braille skills represented an important factor that contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore the use of different reading media. They found out that the most significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education can impact greater growth and evolution. Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that among the reasons participants thought they were successful in overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the employment barriers. According to participants in this study, rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to the new generations. Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable through education or training) could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes of these individuals. Research Questions. The following research questions served as the guiding principles for this study. Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research findings on the subject? Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of employment and wages for this population? Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with higher rates of employment and wages for this population? Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with increased rates of employment and wages for this population? Method Participants The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). Instruments The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 variables, covering (a) general demographics including living situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future research. Procedures All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study was reviewed and approved by the host university’s Institutional Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August 31, 2011. Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. Results Demographics Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample population that comprised this study. The respondents were representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table 1). Table 1 – Demographics Age n Mean SD 1056 46.47 13.81 Range 18-87 Gender Frequency Percent Female 595 56.34 Male 461 43.66 Total 1056 100 Race/Ethnicity Frequency Percent African American, Black 90 8.52 Asian American, Asian 35 3.31 Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) 56 5.3 Native American, Alaska Native 8 0.76 Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander 4 0.38 Other 27 2.56 White or Caucasian 836 79.17 Total 1056 100 Vision Status Frequency Percent Blind 702 66.48 Visually Impaired 354 33.52 Total 1056 100 Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of this population are currently married (45%), while just under two percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). Table 2 – Family and Community Living Situation Frequency percent Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am purchasing 541 51.23 Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property that I pay for 300 28.41 Live at home with parents or in someone else’s home 130 12.31 Live in dormitory or other institution 25 2.37 Share an apartment or rental property with room mates 60 5.68 Total 1056 100 Marital Status Frequency Percent Divorced 107 10.13 Married 475 44.98 Separated 22 2.08 Single 353 33.43 Widow or widower 18 1.7 With significant other person 81 7.67 Total 1056 99.99 Raising Children Frequency Percent No, I have no children 605 57.29 1 child 133 12.59 2 children 176 16.67 3 children 80 7.58 4 children 35 3.31 5 children 11 1.04 6 or more children 16 1.52 Total 1056 100 Population of Your Community Frequency Percent 1-25,000 People 245 23.2 25,001—75,000 People 240 22.73 75,001—150,000 People 121 11.46 150,001—250,000 People 104 9.85 250,001—500,000 People 89 8.43 500,001—1,000,000 People 121 11.46 1,000,001—2,000,001—larger 136 12.88 Total 1056 100.01 Vocational Rehabilitation and Education The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with their state’s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a residential or day program, but that they did not complete their training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received training in their home or school. While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2—78) when they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated “No, the use of a cane was not taught” (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, “I learned a little about cane use” (n = 76, 7.20%); “I was taught using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin” (n = 513, 48.58%); and “I was taught with a long cane that measured between my chin and nose” (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, “A folding cane, that is lower than my chin in height;” 171 individuals (20.26%) said, “A folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;” 249 individuals (29.50%) said, “A rigid cane that is above my chin in height;” 40 individuals (4.74%) said, “A rigid cane, that is lower than my chin in height;” and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they used another type of cane/mobility device. Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3—78). Of the entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read Braille (41.95%). With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and percentage of individuals by educational level before and after rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to increase in their educational attainment. Table 3 -- Education Education Before VR Frequency Percent Education After VR Frequency Percent Less than High School 194 18.37 Less than High School 13 1.23 High School diploma/GED 349 33.05 High School diploma/GED 49 4.64 Some college, but no degree 148 14.02 Some college, but no degree 141 13.35 Associates Degree/AA 50 4.73 Associates Degree/AA 76 7.2 Vocational or Trade school 15 1.42 Vocational or Trade school 53 5.02 Bachelor’s/undergraduate degree 147 13.92 Bachelor’s/undergraduate degree 246 23.3 Master’s/Graduate Degree 72 6.82 Master’s/Graduate Degree 238 22.54 Law Degree 12 1.14 Law Degree 21 1.99 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 17 1.61 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 46 4.36 Not sure or Not applicable 52 4.92 Not sure or Not applicable 173 16.38 Pre Training 1056 100 Post Training 1056 100.01 Consumer and Civic Involvement Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which participants participated in other community and/or civic activities in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic groups. Employment One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary of $35,000. Table 4 – Employment Status Before VR Frequency Percentage After VR Frequency Percentage Full-time employed 192 18.18 Full-Time 393 37.22 Part-time employed 86 8.14 Part-Time 142 13.45 Full-time college or vocational student 119 11.27 Full-Time College 72 6.82 Volunteer part- or full-time 33 3.13 Vol. F-P 45 4.26 Full-time Homemaker 26 2.46 Homemaker 21 1.99 Retired from previous employment 35 3.31 Retired 76 7.2 Unemployed 512 48.48 Unemployed 307 29.07 N/A, I never had a VR case before 53 5.02 Total 1056 99.99 * 1056 100.01 Information was also collected with respect to the availability of fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning available to them through their work. Factors that Impact on Employment The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR services and who should most likely be available for participation in the workforce. Demographic factors. The participant’s age, gender, racial/ethnic classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of participants. Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, RS.0). Those who described themselves as “blind” were employed at a rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as “visually impaired” were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant’s self-reported racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization earning $38,200. Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools used by individuals who are blind or VI. The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the employment status of participants based on the level of education that had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; those having earned a master’s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a master’s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral degree earning $66,900 annually. When participants were asked whether they had completed training at any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a significant difference based on the method or type of training that was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either received training at home, or who received no formal skills training were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these individuals was examined, the data again showed significant differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; those who received their training at conventional centers earned an average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no formal training earned an average of $42,753. Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining—for example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion that those who return for training multiple times have significantly less employment than those who only obtain training a single time (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. More specifically, this research was interested in several specific training variables and their impact on employment. The data demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an “other” device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that Braille has on employment and salary. Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By combining the most salient factors together, the results show even more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. Discussion The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of them could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on employment, the following were found to be the most salient: a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000—a strikingly similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement planning. c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB members. f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this population, with those having graduate-level education being employed at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These results confirm those of Aditya (2004). h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were trained a single time. i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning only $36,000 annually. Implications The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners should know that: a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment need not impede one’s ability to obtain employment. b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money that one can earn. c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good idea. e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes good sense. f.. 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Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: American Foundation for the Blind. U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from http://www.census.gov/ Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social Science, 70(4-A), 1181. Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development relationships and individuals with disabilities. American Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) Exam http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php Director, Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall PO Box 3158 Ruston LA 71272 Office: 318.257.4554 Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) Skype: edwardbell2010 ebell at latech.edu www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness ******************** "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould _______________________________________________ rehab mailing list rehab at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for rehab: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Tue Nov 12 04:18:12 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:18:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> Message-ID: To clarify the school for the blind I attended was not a bad school in fact the best in New York. At that I was highly proactive in my educational experience passing state regents exams which no one said I would. I did not fail myself out of mainstream school they gave up on me. I was mainstreamed until I was in eleventh grade. You make the argument students who attend a school for the blind are not prepared for college? Consider each situation I was mainstreamed all but two years of my education. Going back to the proactive student argument I went back to public Ed to finish my senior year curriculum. The work I was doing was an intensive independent study project that included an internship. It was a semester long. For those of you who may know it is WISE. I was required to keep a daily journal of my progress, keep track of all hours in my internship, meet with my mentor via Internet, conduct research, go to seminars, and give an in depth presentation on what I did for the semester This presentation was to a board of department heads, teachers, administrators, and students. At that I think that whole bit about students not graduating on time does not apply. I am 20 and a junior in college. I went back to my mainstream school to graduate with the rest of my class because I was still taking classes there. Yes still a mainstream student. The things I got at the school for the blind were advanced algebra and trig, chem and physics, and foreign language which most mainstream students who are blind are exempt from though I don't understand why. Did I play sports? Yes In mainstream I was in the diversity, drama, and outdoors club. I was in chorus and ran track for a season. Sent from my iPad On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:01 PM, minh ha wrote: > Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until > until now. I went to public school all my life and had many > opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held > leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't > think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give > their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them > for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, > which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 > is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind > giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't > otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at > all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more > than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as > cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can > participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that > school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to > ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an > entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able > to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful > support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own > potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also > think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well > instead of waiting on others. > > Minh > > On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am >> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >> parents thought and what I believe as well. >> >> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual >> person. >> >> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, >> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the >> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice >> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very >> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me >> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the >> time. >> >> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the >> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most >> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in >> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the >> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable >> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to >> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not >> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and >> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >> process. >> >> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability >> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk >> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted >> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated >> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my >> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our >> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was >> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that >> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but >> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. >> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for >> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do >> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club >> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for >> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is >> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and >> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects >> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases >> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the >> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions >> we came up with to work. >> >> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me >> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim >> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, >> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn >> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I >> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had >> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience >> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but >> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended >> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I >> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that >> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have >> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to >> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >> >> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook >> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away >> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, >> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could >> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >> least. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>> RJ, >>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center >>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >>> to >>> >>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, >>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay >>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >>> is >>> >>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >>> may >>> >>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >>> on >>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >>> the >>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >>> next >>> >>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >>> I >>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >>> me >>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >>> friend >>> >>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >>> the >>> >>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on >>> it. >>> Thanks, >>> Misty >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steve Jacobson >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> RJ, >>> >>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >>> such >>> as that of your friend. In general, >>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >>> mean >>> >>> for bringing up a child in the long >>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>> confident >>> independent traveler without putting in >>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >>> or >>> to be there for that child. Your >>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >>> care >>> of the child, and there could be other >>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >>> take >>> >>> training seems very short-sighted to >>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> >>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>>> ago. >>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "minh ha" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>> >>>> Minh >>> >>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>>> that >>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>>> that >>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>> classmates. >>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>>> for >>>> the >>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>> readily >>>>> available . >>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>>> help >>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>>> in >>>> the >>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>>> us >>>> to >>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>>> should >>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>> environments >>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>>> in >>>> a >>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 04:36:08 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 21:36:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625><18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC><260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <2F2E9A1E0D374FF0867BE1F8F26DB3F1@HP30910210001> arielle. I like your idea about blind people being teachers and it starting as a vollunteer program first. I wish it could be done and I wish I had some ideas on how to do it. then there is the side that says you should be trained to work with the blind. I disagree with this and have . need Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Hi all, I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most and tend to get it least. I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in the town where the center is located but don't participate in school or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know exactly how. Arielle On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > it, but I have also gotten some. > > Cindy > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >> read >> a >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> RJ, >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get >> the >>> answer. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>> centers >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> > Minh, >>> > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >>> > an >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>> > skills >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>> > people, >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>> > Braille, >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> > training centers are necessary. >>> > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>> > polite, >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >>> > to >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >>> > in >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >>> > of >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> > school, employment and life in general. >>> > >>> > Bridgit >>> > Message: 3 >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> > From: minh ha >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >>> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>> > how >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>> > these >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >>> > my >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >>> > and >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >>> > there >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>> > skills >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> > experience. >>> > >>> > Minh >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 06:02:22 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 01:02:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] community choir question In-Reply-To: <5281a422.450d320a.3352.ffffb0a8@mx.google.com> References: <5281a422.450d320a.3352.ffffb0a8@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <2518658B8DDA43A69F1CF4F796B0A2B7@OwnerPC> Kelsey, I think you need to be your own advocate. Its definitely important to sing those vowels out clearly. Listen critically to classically choir music. Notice how vowels are held out or emphasized. For instance the letter A is sung like AH usually. Try to immitate this. Since I have vision and saw print, I knew the vowels. My chorus teacher in middle school had us practice vowels too. If listening doesn't work, talk to the teacher. Don't feel bad about asking. Its just a gap in knowledge. Simply ask them to explain how to do it. It’s a certain way of shaping your lips and breathing right. Make sure to stand or sit straight up as this will help in singing out clearly. If you need further guidance, ask them to let you touch their face so you are shown what its like. Also if you wish to know what print vowels look like, you can get several types of tactile alphabet sets. Some are plastic magnetic letters and I think some are raised letters on cards. Do you have contact with a teacher of the visually impaired or rehab teacher? They may know where to get tactile letters although you probably can find them at toy stores. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kelsey Nicolay Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 10:44 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] community choir question Hello, I currently sing in a community choir in my city. I like it a lot and have really become good friends with people in my section. However, I've been in choirs since fourth grade, but I still have trouble understanding vowel shapes. I guess it's because my directors really didn't know how to explain that in a way that made sense. Anyway, the director will tell the group something like: "Oo should look like ah." But if I don't know what that looks like, how am I supposed conform it? So my question to you guys is: Since this is a community choir, do I need to tell someone about this? They put me next to two very strong singers, one of which is a board member. I feel comfortable talking to both of them and they do their best to help me out, but I just feel very uncomfortable bringing this up with anyone. I think this is kind of a silly question to ask your director considering I've been in choir for this long, but I also don't want to stick out either. Should the board know about this so they can figure out how they can help me understand what he's talking about? How can my neighbors unobtrusively show me this during rehearsal? Is there a good tactile clue that I could establish with them to let me know that the director wants the vowels to be more round? If it is at all helpful, I'm a tactile learner as well as an audio learner, so I need someone to actually show me how to do something. Someone who has been in this situation before, please share your thoughts. Thanks in advance, Kelsey Nicolay _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Tue Nov 12 04:18:12 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:18:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> Message-ID: To clarify the school for the blind I attended was not a bad school in fact the best in New York. At that I was highly proactive in my educational experience passing state regents exams which no one said I would. I did not fail myself out of mainstream school they gave up on me. I was mainstreamed until I was in eleventh grade. You make the argument students who attend a school for the blind are not prepared for college? Consider each situation I was mainstreamed all but two years of my education. Going back to the proactive student argument I went back to public Ed to finish my senior year curriculum. The work I was doing was an intensive independent study project that included an internship. It was a semester long. For those of you who may know it is WISE. I was required to keep a daily journal of my progress, keep track of all hours in my internship, meet with my mentor via Internet, conduct research, go to seminars, and give an in depth presentation on what I did for the semester This presentation was to a board of department heads, teachers, administrators, and students. At that I think that whole bit about students not graduating on time does not apply. I am 20 and a junior in college. I went back to my mainstream school to graduate with the rest of my class because I was still taking classes there. Yes still a mainstream student. The things I got at the school for the blind were advanced algebra and trig, chem and physics, and foreign language which most mainstream students who are blind are exempt from though I don't understand why. Did I play sports? Yes In mainstream I was in the diversity, drama, and outdoors club. I was in chorus and ran track for a season. Sent from my iPad On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:01 PM, minh ha wrote: > Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until > until now. I went to public school all my life and had many > opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held > leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't > think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give > their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them > for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, > which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 > is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind > giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't > otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at > all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more > than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as > cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can > participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that > school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to > ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an > entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able > to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful > support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own > potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also > think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well > instead of waiting on others. > > Minh > > On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am >> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >> parents thought and what I believe as well. >> >> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual >> person. >> >> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, >> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the >> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice >> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very >> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me >> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the >> time. >> >> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the >> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most >> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in >> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the >> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable >> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to >> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not >> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and >> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >> process. >> >> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability >> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk >> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted >> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated >> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my >> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our >> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was >> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that >> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but >> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. >> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for >> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do >> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club >> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for >> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is >> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and >> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects >> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases >> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the >> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions >> we came up with to work. >> >> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me >> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim >> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, >> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn >> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I >> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had >> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience >> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but >> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended >> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I >> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that >> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have >> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to >> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >> >> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook >> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away >> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, >> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could >> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >> least. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>> RJ, >>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center >>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >>> to >>> >>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, >>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay >>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >>> is >>> >>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >>> may >>> >>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >>> on >>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >>> the >>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >>> next >>> >>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >>> I >>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >>> me >>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >>> friend >>> >>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >>> the >>> >>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on >>> it. >>> Thanks, >>> Misty >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steve Jacobson >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> RJ, >>> >>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >>> such >>> as that of your friend. In general, >>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >>> mean >>> >>> for bringing up a child in the long >>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>> confident >>> independent traveler without putting in >>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >>> or >>> to be there for that child. Your >>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >>> care >>> of the child, and there could be other >>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >>> take >>> >>> training seems very short-sighted to >>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> >>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>>> ago. >>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "minh ha" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>> >>>> Minh >>> >>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>>> that >>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>>> that >>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>> classmates. >>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>>> for >>>> the >>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>> readily >>>>> available . >>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>>> help >>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>>> in >>>> the >>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>>> us >>>> to >>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>>> should >>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>> environments >>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>>> in >>>> a >>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 08:04:56 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 03:04:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <17818C7C-DD4E-43A0-9F1E-34EEE9472416@gmail.com> References: <82BE1FBD7259411ABA7E5329A7D57CDB@OwnerPC> <088A7A16-FBB7-4FCC-8B9D-0A523F5A57FB@gmail.com> <17818C7C-DD4E-43A0-9F1E-34EEE9472416@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004301cedf7d$e0becdb0$a23c6910$@gmail.com> I prefer a lighter; but I'm sure some of you guys will call that cheating. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Greg Aikens Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 10:03 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world I find that most of my candles come in some kind of glass jar that can be very helpful in giving me a point of reference. Like Arielle said, I put my hand up to the match to make sure it is burning strongly and then find the jar with my other hand. I then put the lit match down into the jar and "feel" around for the wick with the lit end of the match. As far as I can tell, running the lit match over the surface of the wax does no harm and eventually I find the wick. I hold the match there for about 3 seconds and then remove it. I place my hand several inches above the candle to see if I lit it and then just blow out the match. The bowl of water is probably a good idea but I generally just hold the match for 15 or 20 seconds, long enough for it to cool, before setting it down or throwing it away. Maybe that's not the best method but it has worked for me. -Greg On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:28 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Lora, > > From what I remember, I first lit the match and listened for the crack > sound and also put my other hand a few feet away to check for warmth > coming from the match. I then used my other hand to feel for the base > of the candle, put the match up to the candle wick and would wait a > few seconds, move the match away and feel with my other hand above the > candle to see if there was heat coming up from it. It was a bit of > trial and error to see when the candle was lit, and perhaps others > with more experience have better suggestions for that. The main > nonvisual trick I was taught was for putting out the matches. I was > taught to drop them into a bowl of water so I didn't accidentally put > a lit match down onto something else that could burn. I admit I have > not practiced it much since getting out of the center but I think it > is safe and effective as long as you keep the space clear of clutter, > take your time and use the bowl of water. I also tried unsuccessfully > once to light a lighter. I thought that was really difficult but that > was more because I have fine motor issues than because of blindness. I > am curious if others have found good techniques for lighters. However, > I don't think the lighter gives off as much heat as a match so it is > probably harder to tell when it is lit if you have no vision. I would > recommend sticking with matches, and using long ones in case it takes > a while to get the candle to light. Best of luck! > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: >> Don't remember who said this, but what are your suggestions as far as >> lighting candles non-visually? My Center basically told me not to do it. >> >> Lora >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:52 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Bridgit, >>> I know options are not as readily available. That is why I asked rj >>> if this lady had looked at other options. >>> I am fully aware that options are scarce. In VA, you either go to >>> the center or receive field training which is so infrequent that it >>> will not help much. >>> >>> I believe we need other options. If you have children or care for >>> parents or something family related, its very hard to leave and go to training. >>> >>> I wish there were more day centers for people to go to and then they >>> can take care of business after training at night. >>> I think its terrible about the funding. Yes, I know that vr does not >>> fund training for seniors and those with no employment goal. >>> >>> In my state, we have terrible services for home based service. >>> You can go to the state residential center in richmond va. >>> But, if you cannot, or such center does not meet your needs, little >>> options exist. Every office has field staff, but their caseloads are >>> way, way too high. >>> We have home based O&M and rehab teachers. >>> However, they come so in frequently that little learning can occur. >>> I think a volunteer system is an excellent idea. >>> We actually have that for technology training. Those in the DC area >>> meaning DC, northern VA, and MD have the opportunity to partake in >>> assistive technology training at the Martin Luther King library in >>> DC on G street. But this means they have to have transportation >>> there and be willing to get out of the house which some newly blind >>> people are not able or willing to do and if you're sick, well that >>> is an issue too. >>> So, those who can go to the MLK library can participate in volunteer >>> assistive tech training. >>> They can learn jaws, Zoomtext, braille notetakers, scanners, and >>> talking book players. >>> Additionally, the MLK library offers a IOS training on certain tuesdays. >>> You can have training on the apple devices or even android now. >>> Android is very new and they have few volunteers for that. >>> >>> If that wasn't enough, the MLK library also offers technology camps >>> for youth, or at least they used to. >>> They offer a braille book club on one Saturday a month. Also, they >>> offer seminars on technology and recreation for those who are >>> hearing impaired or vision impaired; separate seminars since our >>> needs are different and these are free. >>> I am quite upset that funding is not available for services from the >>> dc lighthouse in my county, yet in the next county it is. >>> I want to partake in some advanced computer training from the >>> columbia lighthouse for the blind. >>> But no funding is covered in my area and it would leave me paying >>> out of pocket. >>> >>> I wish more volunteer programs existed like at MLK library for other >>> areas of life like teaching braille. >>> Totally good points. I'm glad you >>> healed and were able to attend the iowa center. >>> >>> Ashley >>> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:20 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> Ashley, >>> >>> The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is >>> a major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this >>> includes the NFB centers. >>> >>> Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least >>> attend as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 >>> months, most are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend >>> program isn't enough to teach the skills. These are just >>> introductory programs to allow people the opportunity to see what >>> training would be like. And other institutions aren't equipped to >>> provide the kind of home training you suggest or even offer day programs. >>> >>> The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government >>> doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents >>> or the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore >>> will not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any >>> agency working with people with disabilities. >>> >>> Bridgit >>> Message: 15 >>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 >>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> To: , "National Association of Blind Students >>> mailing list" >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >>> reply-type=response >>> >>> Tyler, >>> No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to >>> one due to circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the >>> center does. >>> It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see >>> more home based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach >>> you privately >>> >>> using your own equipment and marking them if needed. >>> >>> Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about >>> receiving services from her vr agency? >>> They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists >>> who can help her at home. >>> Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she >>> lives in NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in >>> GA, there are two day centers such as the Center for the visually >>> impaired in Atlanta. >>> Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have >>> to find them. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea >>> rthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%4 >>> 0gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail >> .com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.c > om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 08:08:17 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 03:08:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <004b01cedf7e$589869e0$09c93da0$@gmail.com> If you went to the training program, I don't see how you can leave it off your resume. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Bennett Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:20 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing it, but I have also gotten some. Cindy On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > read a bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> RJ, >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll >> get > the >> answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> > Minh, >> > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >> > as an adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >> > children, don't have an experience like yours. If more families >> > adopted an attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> > skills and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. >> > Some people, for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to >> > learn this way, therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> > Braille, adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are >> > specialized skills that are not always easily picked up. It's for >> > these skills that training centers are necessary. >> > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> > polite, this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >> > appearing to not be confident and not looking polished physically >> > and mentally, an employer will automatically have red flags. This >> > is just human nature. >> > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >> > you in this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, >> > and regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit >> > of confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >> > would be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be >> > easy as a blind person because you received training or carry >> > yourself with confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >> > advantage of attending a training center for the blind. Those with >> > this background, especially those not taught nonvisual skills >> > beforehand, do better in school, employment and life in general. >> > >> > Bridgit >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> > From: minh ha >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > > > > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >> > saying how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they >> > need to gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how >> > these success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates >> > gain employment afterwards because of their new found independence >> > skills and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend >> > training centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision >> > for the first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've >> > acquired over the years, I learned from my family and friends. I >> > remember growing up, cooking was one of the activities that my best >> > friend and I experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills >> > either so we played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how >> > to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much responsibility on >> > others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself or I ask >> > someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see myself >> > taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> > there and network and present myself to potential employers. My >> > point is experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the >> > independence skills I need at a center, but it's not going to do me >> > any good without the experience. >> > >> > Minh >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for >> nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu > r%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu > r%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.co > m > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 08:25:54 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 03:25:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> Message-ID: <006201cedf80$cea5bfa0$6bf13ee0$@gmail.com> It is great to learn how to adapt, especially when you have a passion to do something; great job Kaiti. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Hi all, I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my parents thought and what I believe as well. I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual person. However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the time. In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the process. I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions we came up with to work. I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because ultimately it is their independence that is effected. I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at least. Just my thoughts. On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > RJ, > Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever > center she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be > made for her to > > bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory > setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of > dormitories, sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring > their child to stay with them in the apartment while they attend the > center. Your friend may have to work out child care or after school > care for the child while she is > > attending center classes during the day, but the director of the > center may > > be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with > her on that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. > I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but > the director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also > help me work out the child care situation so that I will have the > opportunity to attend the center and get the training I need. I am > planning to attend next > > year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me > bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out > so I can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to > allow me to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, > but your friend > > may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any > of the > > centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her > on it. > Thanks, > Misty > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Jacobson > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > RJ, > > It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > such as that of your friend. In general, though, one really has to > weigh what learning certain skills well might mean > > for bringing up a child in the long > run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > confident independent traveler without putting in some serious time > learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident traveler, for > example, one is going to find it more difficult to get one's child > where that child needs to be, or to be there for that child. Your > friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > care of the child, and there could be other considerations, but to > simply state that one can't leave one's child to take > > training seems very short-sighted to > me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>ago. >>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "minh ha" >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>going to do me any good without the experience. > >>Minh > >>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) >>> is >>that >>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>> that would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>classmates. >>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>> for >>the >>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>readily >>> available . >>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that >>> will >>help >>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in >>the >>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that >>> enable us >>to >>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can >>> we lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that >>> this should be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>environments >>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real >>> world in >>a >>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gma >>> il.com >>> > > >>-- >>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefu >>r%40gm >>ail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40v >>isi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gm > ail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104% > 40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 08:27:51 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 03:27:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <248b01cedf23$22e9f350$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <248b01cedf23$22e9f350$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <006301cedf81$1478a830$3d69f890$@gmail.com> No, but the church will care about how well he is able to accomplish the job. Therefore, whether the man gets his skills via an nfb training center, a local center, or through osmosis, it really shouldn't matter where he learns them. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at Anywhere baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not Joe Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > children, don't have an experience like yours. If more families > adopted an attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. > Some people, for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn > this way, therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > skills that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills > that training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing to not be confident and not looking polished physically and > mentally, an employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, > do better in school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over > the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, > etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to > learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach > me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain > employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can > learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > going to do me any good without the experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From jim.hulme at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 08:46:06 2013 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 03:46:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for a focus 40 blue or a MacBook Air or pro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hello Trey Bradley, please use the following link to download the braille manual: focus 40 blue Focus 40 Blue Freedom Scientific Focus 40 Blue Data Sheet Focus 40 Blue Mac Book Air vs. Mac Book Pro macbookairvsmacbookpro 2013 Mac Book Air Mac Book Pro Please let me know which product you do select when you get a chance. I found that the focus 40 Blue costs $2,795.00 The Macbook pro or macbook air you can actually buy from your local Best Buy (if you send me the state in which your reside I could give you the latest store info. from Best Buy's website) so far Macbook Air is $949.00 at your local Best Buy. MacBook Pro is $1,299.00 at your local Best Buy nearest store location. I need you to give me the state and city where you reside in order to give you the ebst location. Shipping is free. prices are subject to change. Please provide your contact info. and I will be happy to assist you even though I am visually impaired and do not even shop for Braille products let alone computers. I highly recommend the cheapest is the Macbook Air, but you must decide for yourself. Please also provide further feedback about the product that you select. Hope that helps. Have a great week! Jimmy Hulme 609-660-0699 (Home) 908-868-2836 (Mobile) jim.hulme at gmail.com Twitter: @JimHulmeLookout Skype: jimh885 facebook.com/jimmy.hulme1 On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 9:15 PM, Trey Bradley wrote: > > > Hi I am looking for a focus 40 blue or a MacBook Air or pro for a two > years old a Romeo Attashay Braille embosser I also have a JAWS 13 license > and a duxbury license for the latest version I ALS Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 12 08:58:27 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 02:58:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: RJ, Can I ask you an honest question? Are you really interested in hearing about our experiences with training centers, or are you just trying, on the subconscious or conscious level, to wind us up? In case it's the former, I'll try to explain how training centers help people develop social and job skills. It starts with honest feedback. Our teachers were very honest about how they perceived us on all levels including how we were dressed to how we behaved. Honestly, they sometimes went overboard and crossed personal boundaries with their criticism. This actually provided each of us with practice in sorting useful criticism from feedback that was just plain unnecessary. No matter what kind of feedback, useful or otherwise, many of us sorted through it to determine where we could grow and, if we were spot on, did away with the rest and learned to have confidence in ourselves. Sound like the real world? That all said, many of us received valuable feedback that let us know how we could better ourselves, especially in the way of social habits. We all benefited from some manner of direct instruction. We all sat through seminars discussing appropriate interviewing to how to manage all kinds of social interactions. Many of us went through specialized job skills training with curricular that suited our individual needs. We all practiced our skills when out and about. Wither it was dining out as a group, visiting a business on a mobility lesson, or participating in education efforts on blindness, we practiced the skills we learned at the center. We discussed our abilities with the public, demonstrated the blindness skills we used in everyday interactions, etc. We had peers as mentors. We all lived together, worked together, and played together. It was not uncommon for students to help each other to leverage our strengths and overcome our weaknesses in all life areas. We had students with all kinds of life experiences. Some of them were employers who provided their knowledge for the group. Our teachers were peers to a large extent. Many of them, if not most of them, had job and life experience outside of blindness. So they added their perspectives, too. The Center was run like a place of employment. Many of the expectations they placed on us were very similar to how employers would expect us to behave. There were consequences when we did not behave appropriately. For example, we were expected to be at the center on time. If we were late, we were docked pay from our stipend. If we were inappropriately dressed, we were sent back to the apartments to find something better. After which, we were expected to return back to school. We were expected to use sick time and leave appropriately. When we were in training, they expected us to work. We received bimonthly feedback on how we produced at school including our attitudes. And let me tell you, this system certainly was not perfect by any stretch. However, no system, even in the working world, is. Perfections, imperfections and all, the center really is rather reflective of the real world as much as it can be. While I can't say that all training centers are like this, I can say that our structured discovery center's are. Respectfully, Hedu Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 3:18 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Minh, >> >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> training centers are necessary. >> >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> school, employment and life in general. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> From: minh ha >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> experience. >> >> Minh >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 12 09:09:14 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 03:09:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <8CFDEAE1-39FD-4575-A239-1891BD233D51@samobile.net> Damn Fleksy. Apparently we need to work on it's getting my name right. Oh well. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:58 AM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > > RJ, > > Can I ask you an honest question? Are you really interested in hearing about our experiences with training centers, or are you just trying, on the subconscious or conscious level, to wind us up? In case it's the former, I'll try to explain how training centers help people develop social and job skills. > > It starts with honest feedback. Our teachers were very honest about how they perceived us on all levels including how we were dressed to how we behaved. Honestly, they sometimes went overboard and crossed personal boundaries with their criticism. This actually provided each of us with practice in sorting useful criticism from feedback that was just plain unnecessary. No matter what kind of feedback, useful or otherwise, many of us sorted through it to determine where we could grow and, if we were spot on, did away with the rest and learned to have confidence in ourselves. Sound like the real world? That all said, many of us received valuable feedback that let us know how we could better ourselves, especially in the way of social habits. > > We all benefited from some manner of direct instruction. We all sat through seminars discussing appropriate interviewing to how to manage all kinds of social interactions. Many of us went through specialized job skills training with curricular that suited our individual needs. > > We all practiced our skills when out and about. Wither it was dining out as a group, visiting a business on a mobility lesson, or participating in education efforts on blindness, we practiced the skills we learned at the center. We discussed our abilities with the public, demonstrated the blindness skills we used in everyday interactions, etc. > > We had peers as mentors. We all lived together, worked together, and played together. It was not uncommon for students to help each other to leverage our strengths and overcome our weaknesses in all life areas. We had students with all kinds of life experiences. Some of them were employers who provided their knowledge for the group. Our teachers were peers to a large extent. Many of them, if not most of them, had job and life experience outside of blindness. So they added their perspectives, too. > > The Center was run like a place of employment. Many of the expectations they placed on us were very similar to how employers would expect us to behave. There were consequences when we did not behave appropriately. For example, we were expected to be at the center on time. If we were late, we were docked pay from our stipend. If we were inappropriately dressed, we were sent back to the apartments to find something better. After which, we were expected to return back to school. We were expected to use sick time and leave appropriately. When we were in training, they expected us to work. We received bimonthly feedback on how we produced at school including our attitudes. And let me tell you, this system certainly was not perfect by any stretch. However, no system, even in the working world, is. > > Perfections, imperfections and all, the center really is rather reflective of the real world as much as it can be. > > While I can't say that all training centers are like this, I can say that our structured discovery center's are. > > Respectfully, > Hedu > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 3:18 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: >> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> Minh, >>> >>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> >>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills >>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, >>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> >>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> training centers are necessary. >>> >>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to >>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> >>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> >>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> school, employment and life in general. >>> >>> Bridgit >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> From: minh ha >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> >>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how >>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my >>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and >>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there >>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> experience. >>> >>> Minh >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From dandrews at visi.com Tue Nov 12 11:29:19 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:29:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Call to Action Message-ID: >> >> Dear David, >> >>Could you please share with the Federation's membership the >>following action alert? Thank you so much. >> >> >>On behalf of Americans with disabilities, including blind, visually >>impaired and deaf-blind Americans, we launched a petition drive to >>seek ratification of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons >>with Disabilities. The petition at the following link is directed >>at the U.S. Senate, which is currently considering the Convention. >>We strongly urge that all Federation members who are deaf-blind, >>blind and visually impaired respond to this call to action by >>signing the petition. >> >>The petition can be found at >>http://www.petition2congress.com/12320/show-your-commitment-to-liberty-justice-around-world-america/ >>. >> >>Thank you for supporting disability rights worldwide, >> >>Mussie Gebre From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Tue Nov 12 13:23:38 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:23:38 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> References: <008f01cede88$83784960$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <25CEB8E5-BB5A-4D53-88EA-A306DB5E8E37@gmail.com> <57029BA8-4D83-48B1-95CC-FA9C0CADE378@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think schools for the blind have their place, but the public schools should be accommodating blind students as much as possible so that the main stream experience is equal to the other option. We need to advocate that public schools insure accessibility. offer -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 11:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Hi all, good points thus far, and great discussion. The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is that students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills that would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their classmates. They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for the blind where in the public school setting these things are not always readily available . In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will help you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in the world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us to be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this should be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. So, while the implication one might get is that such learning environments shelter people from the "real world", it is my view that generally speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that "real world" in a way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you otherwise ill equipped to do. Darian _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Tue Nov 12 13:54:17 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:54:17 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <82BE1FBD7259411ABA7E5329A7D57CDB@OwnerPC> <088A7A16-FBB7-4FCC-8B9D-0A523F5A57FB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a8a4f82ccf7464894380c2e5d7bf32d@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> I baught a little hot plate designed for melting candles. You plug it into the wall and it melts the wax very effectively, no lighting required. Using lighters was challenging for me, however, I never tried matches. The hot plate device is very convenient. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Arielle Silverman Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 9:29 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Hi Lora, >From what I remember, I first lit the match and listened for the crack sound and also put my other hand a few feet away to check for warmth coming from the match. I then used my other hand to feel for the base of the candle, put the match up to the candle wick and would wait a few seconds, move the match away and feel with my other hand above the candle to see if there was heat coming up from it. It was a bit of trial and error to see when the candle was lit, and perhaps others with more experience have better suggestions for that. The main nonvisual trick I was taught was for putting out the matches. I was taught to drop them into a bowl of water so I didn't accidentally put a lit match down onto something else that could burn. I admit I have not practiced it much since getting out of the center but I think it is safe and effective as long as you keep the space clear of clutter, take your time and use the bowl of water. I also tried unsuccessfully once to light a lighter. I thought that was really difficult but that was more because I have fine motor issues than because of blindness. I am curious if others have found good techniques for lighters. However, I don't think the lighter gives off as much heat as a match so it is probably harder to tell when it is lit if you have no vision. I would recommend sticking with matches, and using long ones in case it takes a while to get the candle to light. Best of luck! Arielle On 11/11/13, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: > Don't remember who said this, but what are your suggestions as far as > lighting candles non-visually? My Center basically told me not to do it. > > Lora > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:52 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> wrote: >> >> Bridgit, >> I know options are not as readily available. That is why I asked rj >> if this lady had looked at other options. >> I am fully aware that options are scarce. In VA, you either go to the >> center or receive field training which is so infrequent that it will >> not help much. >> >> I believe we need other options. If you have children or care for >> parents or something family related, its very hard to leave and go to training. >> >> I wish there were more day centers for people to go to and then they >> can take care of business after training at night. >> I think its terrible about the funding. Yes, I know that vr does not >> fund training for seniors and those with no employment goal. >> >> In my state, we have terrible services for home based service. >> You can go to the state residential center in richmond va. >> But, if you cannot, or such center does not meet your needs, little >> options exist. Every office has field staff, but their caseloads are >> way, way too high. >> We have home based O&M and rehab teachers. >> However, they come so in frequently that little learning can occur. >> I think a volunteer system is an excellent idea. >> We actually have that for technology training. Those in the DC area >> meaning DC, northern VA, and MD have the opportunity to partake in >> assistive technology training at the Martin Luther King library in DC >> on G street. But this means they have to have transportation there >> and be willing to get out of the house which some newly blind people >> are not able or willing to do and if you're sick, well that is an >> issue too. >> So, those who can go to the MLK library can participate in volunteer >> assistive tech training. >> They can learn jaws, Zoomtext, braille notetakers, scanners, and >> talking book players. >> Additionally, the MLK library offers a IOS training on certain tuesdays. >> You can have training on the apple devices or even android now. >> Android is very new and they have few volunteers for that. >> >> If that wasn't enough, the MLK library also offers technology camps >> for youth, or at least they used to. >> They offer a braille book club on one Saturday a month. Also, they >> offer seminars on technology and recreation for those who are hearing >> impaired or vision impaired; separate seminars since our needs are >> different and these are free. >> I am quite upset that funding is not available for services from the >> dc lighthouse in my county, yet in the next county it is. >> I want to partake in some advanced computer training from the >> columbia lighthouse for the blind. >> But no funding is covered in my area and it would leave me paying out >> of pocket. >> >> I wish more volunteer programs existed like at MLK library for other >> areas of life like teaching braille. >> Totally good points. I'm glad you >> healed and were able to attend the iowa center. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:20 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> Ashley, >> >> The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is >> a major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this >> includes the NFB centers. >> >> Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least >> attend as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 >> months, most are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend >> program isn't enough to teach the skills. These are just introductory >> programs to allow people the opportunity to see what training would >> be like. And other institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind >> of home training you suggest or even offer day programs. >> >> The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government >> doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents >> or the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore >> will not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any >> agency working with people with disabilities. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 15 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: , "National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list" >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=response >> >> Tyler, >> No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one >> due to circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center >> does. >> It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more >> home based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you >> privately >> >> using your own equipment and marking them if needed. >> >> Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about >> receiving services from her vr agency? >> They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists >> who can help her at home. >> Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she >> lives in NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in >> GA, there are two day centers such as the Center for the visually >> impaired in Atlanta. >> Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have >> to find them. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ear >> thlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40 >> gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail. > com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Tue Nov 12 14:53:19 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:53:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <528240DF.1010806@comcast.net> On 11/11/2013 5:11 PM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > Do I need an advocate? > Thanks, > JJ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > I don't think you will, but you need someone like ... well, there are a lot of cokis who are blind in CO. You are lucky you have the North Metro Chapter of the NFB of Colorado here. So I'd ask Michelle Hacon or someone who knows how to cook so you don't need a para in the room with you. Taht would be good. Beth From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Tue Nov 12 15:05:21 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 08:05:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> Message-ID: <528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > person. > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > time. > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > process. > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > we came up with to work. > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > least. > > Just my thoughts. > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >> RJ, >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her to >> >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she is >> >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center may >> >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her on >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but the >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend next >> >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so I >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow me >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your friend >> >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of the >> >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on >> it. >> Thanks, >> Misty >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve Jacobson >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> RJ, >> >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case such >> as that of your friend. In general, >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might mean >> >> for bringing up a child in the long >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a confident >> independent traveler without putting in >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >> traveler, for example, one is going to >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, or >> to be there for that child. Your >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take care >> of the child, and there could be other >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to take >> >> training seems very short-sighted to >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> >>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>> ago. >>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "minh ha" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>> Minh >>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>> that >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>> that >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>> classmates. >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted for >>> the >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>> readily >>>> available . >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>> help >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed in >>> the >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable us >>> to >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>> should >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>> environments >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>> in >>> a >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> ail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > Hi, Misty and all, St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me and too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, but then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, and she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget it. This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I was diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but workplaces are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk why I went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my parents still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to refuse to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. They still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and it's really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't possibly be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely not real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and because of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd rather have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in and say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." Beth From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 16:16:08 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 11:16:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625><18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC><260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Hi all, > > I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > and tend to get it least. > I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > exactly how. > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > > it, but I have also gotten some. > > > > Cindy > > > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > >> read > >> a > >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >>> RJ, > >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > >> the > >>> answer. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >>> centers > >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> > >>> > Minh, > >>> > > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > >>> > an > >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >>> > > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >>> > skills > >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >>> > people, > >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >>> > > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > >>> > Braille, > >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >>> > training centers are necessary. > >>> > > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > >>> > polite, > >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > >>> > to > >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > >>> > > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > >>> > in > >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >>> > > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > >>> > of > >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > >>> > school, employment and life in general. > >>> > > >>> > Bridgit > >>> > Message: 3 > >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >>> > From: minh ha > >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > Message-ID: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >>> > > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > >>> > how > >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > >>> > these > >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > >>> > my > >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > >>> > and > >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > >>> > there > >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > >>> > skills > >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > >>> > experience. > >>> > > >>> > Minh > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > > >>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>> ail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > >> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >> ail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Cindy Bennett > > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From haleysumner at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 12 17:10:11 2013 From: haleysumner at sbcglobal.net (haley sumner) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:10:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: <1384276211.54495.BPMail_high_noncarrier@web181302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hey JJ, I think you could just explain your thoughts, and that you feel you really don't need a para for the class. If your TVI & counselor do not know about your cooking experiences, you could give them some background on them. Tell them the skills that you are able to do independently, and those that you still struggle with when preparing meals. This might help them understand and side with you if they know that you are able to cook independently. Hope this helps. Haley ------------------------------ On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 6:53 AM PST Beth Taurasi wrote: >On 11/11/2013 5:11 PM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >> Do I need an advocate? >> Thanks, >> JJ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >I don't think you will, but you need someone like ... well, there are a lot of cokis who are blind in CO. You are lucky you have the North Metro Chapter of the NFB of Colorado here. So I'd ask Michelle Hacon or someone who knows how to cook so you don't need a para in the room with you. >Taht would be good. >Beth > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/haleysumner%40sbcglobal.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 18:12:39 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:12:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: RJ, How will Joe Blind do his job if he hasn't learned the tools to do his job successfully? Yes, his congregation will care if he can do his job efficiently. My dad is a pastor, and if he lost his sight, he would require tools like Braille and travel and other tools in order to continue to do his job efficiently and successfully. I've met a blind pastor who said she is better equipped since training. I really don't know what your post has to do with training. Why are you so resistant and angry towards training? Most people I know who have gone through training, praise it's benefits. You really need to open your mind up a bit and consider other possibilities. The world is full of possibilities, and sometimes we need to be open to these possibilities. Bridgit Message: 1 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:15:22 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <248b01cedf23$22e9f350$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at Anywhere baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not Joe Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 18:52:51 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:52:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Hi all, I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy of the NFB is totally different. I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Arielle Silverman" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Hi all, >> >> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >> and tend to get it least. >> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >> exactly how. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >> > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >> > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >> > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >> > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >> > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing >> > it, but I have also gotten some. >> > >> > Cindy >> > >> > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >> >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >> >> read >> >> a >> >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> >> >> >>> RJ, >> >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get >> >> the >> >>> answer. >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: RJ Sandefur >> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >>> >> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> >>> centers >> >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> >>> To: >> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > Minh, >> >>> > >> >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >> >>> > as >> >>> > an >> >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >> >>> > children, >> >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> >>> > >> >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> >>> > skills >> >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> >>> > people, >> >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> >>> > >> >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> >>> > Braille, >> >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >> >>> > skills >> >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> >>> > training centers are necessary. >> >>> > >> >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> >>> > polite, >> >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing >> >>> > to >> >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an >> >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. >> >>> > >> >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >> >>> > you >> >>> > in >> >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would >> >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> >>> > >> >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >> >>> > advantage >> >>> > of >> >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, >> >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in >> >>> > school, employment and life in general. >> >>> > >> >>> > Bridgit >> >>> > Message: 3 >> >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> >>> > From: minh ha >> >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >>> > >> >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >>> > Message-ID: >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >>> > >> >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >> >>> > saying >> >>> > how >> >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain >> >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >> >>> > success >> >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >> >>> > these >> >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >> >>> > Maybe >> >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of >> >>> > my >> >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned >> >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of >> >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >> >>> > kitchen >> >>> > and >> >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself >> >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to >> >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> >>> > there >> >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >> >>> > skills >> >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >> >>> > the >> >>> > experience. >> >>> > >> >>> > Minh >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> > >> >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> >>> ail.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> >> net >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >>> >> >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> >> ail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Cindy Bennett >> > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> > >> > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> > clb5590 at gmail.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 19:01:05 2013 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:01:05 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] community choir question In-Reply-To: <2518658B8DDA43A69F1CF4F796B0A2B7@OwnerPC> References: <5281a422.450d320a.3352.ffffb0a8@mx.google.com> <2518658B8DDA43A69F1CF4F796B0A2B7@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hello Kelsey, If you've got your singing teacher by now, he or she can show you all this in a single lesson. It isn't difficult, it's just a question of someone explaining it properly through speech and touching if necessary. When I teach this, it's pretty quick. I agree with the others, you can get an awful lot from listening to chorus men and women, especially the soloists when they sing Oratorio because they have to be absolutely clear. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 11/12/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Kelsey, > I think you need to be your own advocate. Its definitely important to sing > those vowels out clearly. > Listen critically to classically choir music. Notice how vowels are held out > or emphasized. For instance the letter A is sung like AH usually. > Try to immitate this. Since I have vision and saw print, I knew the vowels. > My chorus teacher in middle school had us practice vowels too. > > If listening doesn't work, talk to the teacher. > Don't feel bad about asking. Its just a gap in knowledge. > Simply ask them to explain how to do it. It’s a certain way of shaping your > lips and breathing right. > Make sure to stand or sit straight up as this will help in singing out > clearly. > If you need further guidance, ask them to let you touch their face so you > are shown what its like. > Also if you wish to know what print vowels look like, you can get several > types of tactile alphabet sets. Some are plastic magnetic letters and I > think some are raised letters on cards. Do you have contact with a teacher > of the visually impaired or rehab teacher? They may know where to get > tactile letters although you probably can find them at toy stores. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kelsey Nicolay > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 10:44 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] community choir question > > Hello, > I currently sing in a community choir in my city. I like it a > lot and have really become good friends with people in my > section. However, I've been in choirs since fourth grade, but I > still have trouble understanding vowel shapes. I guess it's > because my directors really didn't know how to explain that in a > way that made sense. Anyway, the director will tell the group > something like: "Oo should look like ah." But if I don't know > what that looks like, how am I supposed conform it? So my > question to you guys is: Since this is a community choir, do I > need to tell someone about this? They put me next to two very > strong singers, one of which is a board member. I feel > comfortable talking to both of them and they do their best to > help me out, but I just feel very uncomfortable bringing this up > with anyone. I think this is kind of a silly question to ask > your director considering I've been in choir for this long, but I > also don't want to stick out either. Should the board know about > this so they can figure out how they can help me understand what > he's talking about? How can my neighbors unobtrusively show me > this during rehearsal? Is there a good tactile clue that I could > establish with them to let me know that the director wants the > vowels to be more round? If it is at all helpful, I'm a tactile > learner as well as an audio learner, so I need someone to > actually show me how to do something. Someone who has been in > this situation before, please share your thoughts. > Thanks in advance, > Kelsey Nicolay > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 19:18:02 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:18:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> <528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bridget, It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror stories from people at several state schools, and even know older people who are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and now for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at least, it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years of a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment made me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant descrimination. On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am >> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >> parents thought and what I believe as well. >> >> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual >> person. >> >> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, >> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the >> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice >> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very >> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me >> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the >> time. >> >> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the >> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most >> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in >> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the >> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable >> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to >> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not >> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and >> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >> process. >> >> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability >> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk >> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted >> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated >> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my >> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our >> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was >> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that >> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but >> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. >> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for >> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do >> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club >> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for >> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is >> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and >> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects >> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases >> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the >> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions >> we came up with to work. >> >> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me >> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim >> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, >> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn >> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I >> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had >> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience >> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but >> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended >> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I >> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that >> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have >> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to >> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >> >> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook >> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away >> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, >> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could >> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >> least. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>> RJ, >>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever >>> center >>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >>> to >>> >>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >>> dormitories, >>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to >>> stay >>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >>> is >>> >>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >>> may >>> >>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >>> on >>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >>> the >>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >>> next >>> >>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >>> I >>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >>> me >>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >>> friend >>> >>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >>> the >>> >>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her >>> on >>> it. >>> Thanks, >>> Misty >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steve Jacobson >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> RJ, >>> >>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >>> such >>> as that of your friend. In general, >>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >>> mean >>> >>> for bringing up a child in the long >>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>> confident >>> independent traveler without putting in >>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >>> or >>> to be there for that child. Your >>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >>> care >>> of the child, and there could be other >>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >>> take >>> >>> training seems very short-sighted to >>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> >>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>>> ago. >>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "minh ha" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>>> Minh >>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) >>>>> is >>>> that >>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>>> that >>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>> classmates. >>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>>> for >>>> the >>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>> readily >>>>> available . >>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that >>>>> will >>>> help >>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>>> in >>>> the >>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>>> us >>>> to >>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can >>>>> we >>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>>> should >>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>> environments >>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>>> in >>>> a >>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> > Hi, Misty and all, > St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me and > too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado > Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, but > then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things > were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, and > she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget it. > This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being > alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I was > diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are > trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but workplaces > are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk why I > went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for > myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my parents > still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to refuse > to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. They > still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is > property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and it's > really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't possibly > be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely not > real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and because > of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd rather > have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in and > say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 19:21:18 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:21:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625><18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC><260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625><007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to attend a center.RJ I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kaiti Shelton" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Hi all, > > I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I > will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training > centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana > Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. > Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and > Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. > To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of > fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. > The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to > be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy > of the NFB is totally different. > > I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center > directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best > job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; > > On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > >> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > >> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > >> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > >> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > >> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > >> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > >> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > >> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > >> and tend to get it least. > >> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > >> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > >> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > >> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > >> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > >> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > >> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > >> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > >> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > >> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > >> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > >> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > >> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > >> exactly how. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > >> > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > >> > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > >> > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > >> > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > >> > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > >> > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > >> > it, but I have also gotten some. > >> > > >> > Cindy > >> > > >> > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > >> >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > >> >> read > >> >> a > >> >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> >> > >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>> RJ, > >> >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > > get > >> >> the > >> >>> answer. > >> >>> > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > >> >>> From: RJ Sandefur > >> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> >>> > >> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >> >>> centers > >> >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >> >>> To: > >> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > Minh, > >> >>> > > >> >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > >> >>> > as > >> >>> > an > >> >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > >> >>> > children, > >> >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >> >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >> >>> > skills > >> >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >> >>> > people, > >> >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >> >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > >> >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > >> >>> > Braille, > >> >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > >> >>> > skills > >> >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >> >>> > training centers are necessary. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > >> >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >> >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >> >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > >> >>> > polite, > >> >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > > appearing > >> >>> > to > >> >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > > an > >> >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > > nature. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > >> >>> > you > >> >>> > in > >> >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >> >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >> >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > > would > >> >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > >> >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >> >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > >> >>> > advantage > >> >>> > of > >> >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > > background, > >> >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > > in > >> >>> > school, employment and life in general. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Bridgit > >> >>> > Message: 3 > >> >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >> >>> > From: minh ha > >> >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> >>> > Message-ID: > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >> >>> > > >> >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > >> >>> > saying > >> >>> > how > >> >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > > gain > >> >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > >> >>> > success > >> >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >> >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > >> >>> > these > >> >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > >> >>> > Maybe > >> >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > > of > >> >>> > my > >> >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > > learned > >> >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > > of > >> >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > >> >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > >> >>> > kitchen > >> >>> > and > >> >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > >> >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > > myself > >> >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > >> >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > > to > >> >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > >> >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > >> >>> > there > >> >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >> >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > >> >>> > skills > >> >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > >> >>> > the > >> >>> > experience. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Minh > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ > >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >> >>> ail.com > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >>> nabs-l: > >> >>> > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > >> >> net > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >>> > >> >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >> >> ail.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> >> nabs-l: > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Cindy Bennett > >> > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > >> > > >> > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > >> > clb5590 at gmail.com > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> > nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai l.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Tue Nov 12 20:34:39 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:34:39 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Good morning, After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to >attend a center.RJ > I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, >then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive > Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kaiti Shelton" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Hi all, > > > > I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I > > will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training > > centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana > > Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. > > Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and > > Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. > > To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of > > fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. > > The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to > > be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy > > of the NFB is totally different. > > > > I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center > > directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best > > job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; > > > > On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > > Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Arielle Silverman" > > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > > >> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > > >> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > > >> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > > >> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > > >> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > > >> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > > >> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > > >> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > > >> and tend to get it least. > > >> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > > >> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > > >> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > > >> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > > >> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > > >> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > > >> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > > >> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > > >> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > > >> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > > >> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > > >> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > > >> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > > >> exactly how. > > >> > > >> Arielle > > >> > > >> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > > >> > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > > >> > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > > >> > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > > >> > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > > >> > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > > >> > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >listing > > >> > it, but I have also gotten some. > > >> > > > >> > Cindy > > >> > > > >> > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > >> >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > > >> >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >can > > >> >> read > > >> >> a > > >> >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >> >> > > >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >>> RJ, > > >> >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >you'll > > > get > > >> >> the > > >> >>> answer. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> -----Original Message----- > > >> >>> From: RJ Sandefur > > >> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> >>> > > >> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > > >> >>> centers > > >> >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > >> >>> To: > > >> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > >> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Minh, > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > > >> >>> > as > > >> >>> > an > > >> >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > > >> >>> > children, > > >> >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > >> >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > > >> >>> > skills > > >> >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > > >> >>> > people, > > >> >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > >> >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >without > > >> >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > >> >>> > Braille, > > >> >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > > >> >>> > skills > > >> >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > >> >>> > training centers are necessary. > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >world > > >> >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > >> >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >on > > >> >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > > >> >>> > polite, > > >> >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > > > appearing > > >> >>> > to > > >> >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and >mentally, > > > an > > >> >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > > > nature. > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > > >> >>> > you > > >> >>> > in > > >> >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > >> >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > >> >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > > > would > > >> >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >a > > >> >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > >> >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > > >> >>> > advantage > > >> >>> > of > > >> >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > > > background, > > >> >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >better > > > in > > >> >>> > school, employment and life in general. > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > Bridgit > > >> >>> > Message: 3 > > >> >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > >> >>> > From: minh ha > > >> >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> >>> > Message-ID: > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > > >> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > > >> >>> > saying > > >> >>> > how > > >> >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > > > gain > > >> >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > > >> >>> > success > > >> >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >employment > > >> >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > > >> >>> > these > > >> >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > > >> >>> > Maybe > > >> >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >years > > > of > > >> >>> > my > > >> >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > > > learned > > >> >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >one > > > of > > >> >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >she > > >> >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > > >> >>> > kitchen > > >> >>> > and > > >> >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >much > > >> >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > > > myself > > >> >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >see > > >> >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >society > > > to > > >> >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >many > > >> >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >out > > >> >>> > there > > >> >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >is > > >> >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > > >> >>> > skills > > >> >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > > >> >>> > the > > >> >>> > experience. > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > Minh > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ > > >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list > > >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > >> >>> nabs-l: > > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > >> >> > > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > > >> >>> ail.com > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for > > >> >>> nabs-l: > > >> >>> > > >> >> > > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > > >> >> net > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for > > >> >> nabs-l: > > >> >>> > > >> >> > > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > > >> >> ail.com > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> _______________________________________________ > > >> >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for > > >> >> nabs-l: > > >> >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Cindy Bennett > > >> > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > >> > > > >> > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > >> > clb5590 at gmail.com > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > nabs-l mailing list > > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> > nabs-l: > > >> > > > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > >> > > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > >> > > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > > > ail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >l.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >ail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 21:56:37 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:56:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, Two things I would have you ponder are these: You appear to have had blindness skills taught to you as a child. Many people don't have this opportunity, especially those who lose sight later in life. Attending a center is an individual choice, and if you already know the skills and are living your life, I agree a center isn't a necessary option. But for those who didn't receive an education in blindness skills earlier in life, we need those skills before continuing on, conquering goals. And no one believes a person must be an expert in any of the skills. No one person will excel at everything, at least few of us. The point is not to become an expert, but to learn basic, fundamentals of the skills so we can go about life. Sighted people must know how to read and write for pretty much every aspect of life. They require a basic knowledge of computers for most jobs and school and really life in general. They must have the ability to get from place to place. So as blind people, we must know how to do these things, meaning we learn Braille to read and write, computer to compete with our peers at school and work, travel abilities to get to school and work and everything in between. All people know how to do these basic functions; it doesn't mean they are experts in any given field. The same rule applies to blind people. Centers are not trying to make experts out of students. They are trying to provide basic skills for living using methods that are accessible and efficient for blind people. Bridgit Message: 14 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my perspective is that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, but you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea of going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of thinking drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd also put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school was in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth the investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not enroll. But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the Latino culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair share around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a vision teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a stickler. I love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed up with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw down my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor came over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and found the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other side of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep shade training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route to get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns could be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not everyone needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that you have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our sighted peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers could do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to take a break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and breathing a blindness independence philosophy. Joe From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:00:35 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:00:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: JJ, Legally, you and your parents have the right to deny a para. I'm totally blind and cook and bake almost daily. I do this for my family and have also cooked for large groups, up to 30 people, all without sighted help. Be forthright and persistent with this. Be diplomatic, but it's your right to deny a full-time para. Bridgit Message: 17 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? Do I need an advocate? Thanks, JJ From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:04:39 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:04:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers and volunteers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arielle, Is there any way some initiative could be developed for such volunteer-based programs? It seems like a huge undertaking, and I don't even know if something like this can be done on a national level. Just thinking out loud, so to speak, smile. Bridgit Message: 21 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most and tend to get it least. I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in the town where the center is located but don't participate in school or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know exactly how. Arielle From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:10:49 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:10:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002c01cedff4$0b889dc0$2299d940$@gmail.com> Not saying that someone in the class with you won't be helpful, but there are a lot of cooks who are blind. Be sure that no matter what happens, you perform those skills yourself at some point in the class without any help whether you have someone in there with you or not. I would prefer you go to class without a helper of any sort, but since I don't know the situation, I won't simply tell you not too. However, if your help is just going to not let you learn the skills, then that is counterproductive. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:01 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question JJ, Legally, you and your parents have the right to deny a para. I'm totally blind and cook and bake almost daily. I do this for my family and have also cooked for large groups, up to 30 people, all without sighted help. Be forthright and persistent with this. Be diplomatic, but it's your right to deny a full-time para. Bridgit Message: 17 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? Do I need an advocate? Thanks, JJ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:10:37 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:10:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are better equipped to deal with life. Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later in life would flounder and find no direction. Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success, but neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have. It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers have helped many make this transition. It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations. College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills to practical situations. So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do. It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and I'm only addressing training centers. Bridgit Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete his job as well as any sighted pastor. On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Minh, >> >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> training centers are necessary. >> >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> school, employment and life in general. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> From: minh ha >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> experience. >> >> Minh >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 gmail.com > -- Kaiti ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original RJ, No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a center and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at Anywhere baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not Joe Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original RJ, They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the answer. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government training centers for the blind. There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and I could have benefited from some training. I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and resources to live independently. Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the skills, but this seems like a simple solution. Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and she has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training center due to her having a child. RJ ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ashley, The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes the NFB centers. Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you suggest or even offer day programs. The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency working with people with disabilities. Bridgit Message: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Tyler, No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one due to circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more home based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately using your own equipment and marking them if needed. Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about receiving services from her vr agency? They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who can help her at home. Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she lives in NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there are two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to find them. Ashley ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steve, I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to be further explored. Bridgit Message: 18 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RJ, It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case such as that of your friend. In general, though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might mean for bringing up a child in the long run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a confident independent traveler without putting in some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident traveler, for example, one is going to find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, or to be there for that child. Your friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take care of the child, and there could be other considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to take training seems very short-sighted to me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. Best regards, Steve Jacobson ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly when written by a blind person. Bridgit ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read a bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > RJ, > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the > answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until until now. I went to public school all my life and had many opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well instead of waiting on others. Minh On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > person. > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > time. > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > process. > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > we came up with to work. > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > least. > > Just my thoughts. > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >> RJ, >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >> to >> >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >> is >> >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >> may >> >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >> on >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >> the >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >> next >> >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >> I >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >> me >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >> friend >> >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >> the >> >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on >> it. >> Thanks, >> Misty >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve Jacobson >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> RJ, >> >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >> such >> as that of your friend. In general, >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >> mean >> >> for bringing up a child in the long >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >> confident >> independent traveler without putting in >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >> traveler, for example, one is going to >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >> or >> to be there for that child. Your >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >> care >> of the child, and there could be other >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >> take >> >> training seems very short-sighted to >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>> ago. >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "minh ha" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>going to do me any good without the experience. >> >>>Minh >> >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>>that >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>> that >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>classmates. >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>> for >>>the >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>readily >>>> available . >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>>help >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>> in >>>the >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>> us >>>to >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>> should >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>environments >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>> in >>>a >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c om >>>> >> >> >>>-- >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef ur%40gm >>>ail.com >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40 visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai l.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c om > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 From: "Loren Wakefield" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Peter, Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told you have excellent info on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM Theweird1 at mediacombb.net Loren Wakefield To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Good evening everyone, He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as guide dog instructors. Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your questions. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hannah, Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which school this is although I plan to find out. Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many teams are fine. I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him or her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole dog user group a bad representation. I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged animal given the advice so far. I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new environment and stress. I hope it?s the right decision. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hannah Chadwick Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Ashley and Josh, Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae du.o nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co m > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae du.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacom bb.net ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my perspective is that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, but you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea of going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of thinking drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd also put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school was in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth the investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not enroll. But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the Latino culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair share around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a vision teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a stickler. I love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed up with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw down my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor came over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and found the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other side of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep shade training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route to get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns could be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not everyone needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that you have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our sighted peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers could do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to take a break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and breathing a blindness independence philosophy. Joe ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in independently. I have cooked food before, and -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you. Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? Do I need an advocate? Thanks, JJ ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 This is the research report I was talking about. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Edward Bell Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech University. Abstract Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of this study was to determine the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of the factors could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in annual earnings between men and women. Education and rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; where higher educational attainment is associated with better employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings was higher than those who did not use these tools. Keywords Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey This study sought to describe the current employment status of individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the literature that analyze the employment situation of people with disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive employment. The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased employment. Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an entire array of education and employment preparation institutions (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that disability status was the variable that presented the strongest negative correlation with employment. The author determined that disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, were less likely to be employed. A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of working were significantly less for respondents with severe disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with women being less likely to be employed. The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment specifically for the blind and VI population. Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. According to the literature, there are several factors that predict employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology training were associated with being employed. In relation to those factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation teaching. In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of employment. Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR services. The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most statistically significant predictors of competitive employment outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with visual impairments who were competitively employed through the state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at closure was for consumers. An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was not a significant factor impacting on earnings. >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of the work and transportation challenges. The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation services helped them to improve their performances, that the services made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that the services helped them to maintain their jobs. Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not only provide the training that leads to employment but since they spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s job. As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional and alternative approaches related to functional independence, individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a measure of functional independence than those trained in the conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of independent living. Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment rates and higher education levels than reading print as original medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing updated Braille skills represented an important factor that contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore the use of different reading media. They found out that the most significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education can impact greater growth and evolution. Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that among the reasons participants thought they were successful in overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the employment barriers. According to participants in this study, rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to the new generations. Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable through education or training) could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes of these individuals. Research Questions. The following research questions served as the guiding principles for this study. Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research findings on the subject? Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of employment and wages for this population? Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with higher rates of employment and wages for this population? Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with increased rates of employment and wages for this population? Method Participants The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). Instruments The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 variables, covering (a) general demographics including living situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future research. Procedures All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August 31, 2011. Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. Results Demographics Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample population that comprised this study. The respondents were representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table 1). Table 1 ? Demographics Age n Mean SD 1056 46.47 13.81 Range 18-87 Gender Frequency Percent Female 595 56.34 Male 461 43.66 Total 1056 100 Race/Ethnicity Frequency Percent African American, Black 90 8.52 Asian American, Asian 35 3.31 Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) 56 5.3 Native American, Alaska Native 8 0.76 Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander 4 0.38 Other 27 2.56 White or Caucasian 836 79.17 Total 1056 100 Vision Status Frequency Percent Blind 702 66.48 Visually Impaired 354 33.52 Total 1056 100 Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of this population are currently married (45%), while just under two percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). Table 2 ? Family and Community Living Situation Frequency percent Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am purchasing 541 51.23 Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property that I pay for 300 28.41 Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home 130 12.31 Live in dormitory or other institution 25 2.37 Share an apartment or rental property with room mates 60 5.68 Total 1056 100 Marital Status Frequency Percent Divorced 107 10.13 Married 475 44.98 Separated 22 2.08 Single 353 33.43 Widow or widower 18 1.7 With significant other person 81 7.67 Total 1056 99.99 Raising Children Frequency Percent No, I have no children 605 57.29 1 child 133 12.59 2 children 176 16.67 3 children 80 7.58 4 children 35 3.31 5 children 11 1.04 6 or more children 16 1.52 Total 1056 100 Population of Your Community Frequency Percent 1-25,000 People 245 23.2 25,001?75,000 People 240 22.73 75,001?150,000 People 121 11.46 150,001?250,000 People 104 9.85 250,001?500,000 People 89 8.43 500,001?1,000,000 People 121 11.46 1,000,001?2,000,001?larger 136 12.88 Total 1056 100.01 Vocational Rehabilitation and Education The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a residential or day program, but that they did not complete their training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received training in their home or school. While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n = 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249 individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they used another type of cane/mobility device. Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read Braille (41.95%). With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and percentage of individuals by educational level before and after rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to increase in their educational attainment. Table 3 -- Education Education Before VR Frequency Percent Education After VR Frequency Percent Less than High School 194 18.37 Less than High School 13 1.23 High School diploma/GED 349 33.05 High School diploma/GED 49 4.64 Some college, but no degree 148 14.02 Some college, but no degree 141 13.35 Associates Degree/AA 50 4.73 Associates Degree/AA 76 7.2 Vocational or Trade school 15 1.42 Vocational or Trade school 53 5.02 Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree 147 13.92 Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree 246 23.3 Master?s/Graduate Degree 72 6.82 Master?s/Graduate Degree 238 22.54 Law Degree 12 1.14 Law Degree 21 1.99 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 17 1.61 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 46 4.36 Not sure or Not applicable 52 4.92 Not sure or Not applicable 173 16.38 Pre Training 1056 100 Post Training 1056 100.01 Consumer and Civic Involvement Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which participants participated in other community and/or civic activities in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic groups. Employment One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary of $35,000. Table 4 ? Employment Status Before VR Frequency Percentage After VR Frequency Percentage Full-time employed 192 18.18 Full-Time 393 37.22 Part-time employed 86 8.14 Part-Time 142 13.45 Full-time college or vocational student 119 11.27 Full-Time College 72 6.82 Volunteer part- or full-time 33 3.13 Vol. F-P 45 4.26 Full-time Homemaker 26 2.46 Homemaker 21 1.99 Retired from previous employment 35 3.31 Retired 76 7.2 Unemployed 512 48.48 Unemployed 307 29.07 N/A, I never had a VR case before 53 5.02 Total 1056 99.99 * 1056 100.01 Information was also collected with respect to the availability of fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning available to them through their work. Factors that Impact on Employment The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR services and who should most likely be available for participation in the workforce. Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of participants. Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization earning $38,200. Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools used by individuals who are blind or VI. The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the employment status of participants based on the level of education that had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral degree earning $66,900 annually. When participants were asked whether they had completed training at any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a significant difference based on the method or type of training that was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either received training at home, or who received no formal skills training were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these individuals was examined, the data again showed significant differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; those who received their training at conventional centers earned an average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no formal training earned an average of $42,753. Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion that those who return for training multiple times have significantly less employment than those who only obtain training a single time (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. More specifically, this research was interested in several specific training variables and their impact on employment. The data demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other? device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that Braille has on employment and salary. Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By combining the most salient factors together, the results show even more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. Discussion The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of them could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on employment, the following were found to be the most salient: a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement planning. c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB members. f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this population, with those having graduate-level education being employed at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These results confirm those of Aditya (2004). h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were trained a single time. i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning only $36,000 annually. Implications The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners should know that: a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment. b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money that one can earn. c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good idea. e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes good sense. f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments. References Amato, S. (2009). Challenges and Solutions in Teaching Braille in an Online-Education Model. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(2), 78-80. American Foundation for the Blind (2012). Adults with vision loss. Retrieved from http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?FolderID=2&SectionID=15&TopicID=413&Docu mentID=4385 Aditya, R. N. (2004). A comparison of two orientation and mobility certification programs. Unpublished report prepared for the Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), Washington, DC. Baldwin, M. L., & Schumacher, E. J. (2002). A note on job mobility among workers with disabilities. Industrial Relations: A Journal of Economy & Society, 41(3), 430-441. Beck-Winchatz, B., & Riccobono, M. (2008). Advancing participation of blind students in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Advances in Space Research, 42(11), 1855-1858. doi:10.1016/j.asr.2007.05.080. Bennetts, C. (2003). Mentoring youth: trend and tradition. British Journal of Guidance & Counseling, 31(1), 63-76. doi:10.1080/0306988031000086170 Bell, E. C. (2010). Competitive employment for consumers who are legally blind: A 10-year retrospective study. Journal of Rehabilitation Research & Development, 47(2), 109-116. doi:10.1682/JRRD.2009.08.0120 Bell, E. C. (2012). Mentoring transition-age youth with blindness. The Journal of Special Education, 46(3), 170-179. Capella, M. (2001). Predicting earnings of vocational rehabilitation clients with visual impairments. Journal of Rehabilitation, 67(4), 43-47. Capella-McDonnall, M. (2005). Predictors of competitive employment for blind and visually impaired consumers of vocational rehabilitation services. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(5), 303-315. Cavenaugh, B. (1999). Relationship of agency structure and client characteristics to rehabilitation services and outcomes for consumers who are blind. Unpublished manuscript, Mississippi State University, Rehabilitation Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision, Starkville, MS. Cavenaugh, B. S., Giesen, J. M., & Pierce, S. J. (2000). Rehabilitation of visually impaired persons in separate and general agencies. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 94(3), 133-145. Cavenaugh, B., Giesen, J., & Steinman, B. (2006). Contextual effects of race or ethnicity on acceptance for vocational rehabilitation of consumers who are legally blind. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(7), 425-436. Crudden, A., & McBroom, L. (1999). Barriers to employment: A survey of employed persons who are visually impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment and Blindness, 93(6), 341-350. Darensbourg, B. (2013). Predictors of competitive employment of VR consumers with blindness or visual impairments. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation. 38(1), 29-34. doi: 10.3233/JVR-120618 Ferguson, R. (2001). We know who we are: A history of the blind in challenging educational and socially constructed policies: A study in policy archeology. San Francisco, CA: Caddo Gap. Fireison, C., & Moore, J. (1998). Employment Outcomes and Educational Backgrounds of Legally Blind Adults Employed in Sheltered Industrial Settings. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 92(11), 740-47. Golub, D. B. (2006). A model of successful work experience for employees who are visually impaired: The results of a study. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(12), 715-725. Hall, L. J., & McGregor, J. A. (2000). A follow-up study of the peer relationships of children with disabilities in an inclusive school. The Journal of Special Education, 34(3), 114-126. Harris, A. (2008). Messages to take away: Final reflections on residential rehabilitation. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080216.htm Hershenson, D. (1998). Systemic, ecological model for rehabilitation counseling. Rehabilitation Counseling Bulletin, 42(1), 40-50. Jeanmarie, K. & Strauser, D. R. (2000). Job readiness, self-efficacy and work personality: A comparison of trainee and instructor perceptions. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 14(1) 13-21. Leonard, R., D'Allura, T., & Horowitz, A. (1999). Factors associated with employment among persons who have a vision impairment: A follow-up of vocational placement referrals. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 12(1), 33-43. Marks, S., & Feeley, D. (1995). Transition in action: Michigan's experience. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(3), 272-275. Martz, E., & Xu, Y. (2008). Person-related and service-related factors predicting employment of individuals with disabilities. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 28(2), 97-104. Mayo, S., Allen, P. & Deden, J. (2008). A governing philosophy: Strategies for implementing a progressive approach in a center-based environment. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080209.htm Mettler, R. (2008). Cognitive learning theory and cane travel instructors: A new paradigm (2nd ed.). Lincoln, NE: Nebraska Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired. McDonnall, M., & Crudden, A. (2009). Factors affecting the successful employment of transition-age youths with visual impairments. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(6), 329-341. Miller, J. (2002). The Role of Orientation and Mobility Instructors and Rehabilitation Teachers in Enhancing Employment Opportunities for Persons Who Are Visually Impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 96(12), 852-55. Nagle, K. M. (2001). Transition to employment and community life for youths with visual impairments: Current status and future directions. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 95(12), 725-738. National Blindness Professional Certification Board (2012). Structured Discovery Cane Travel. Retrieved from http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/sdct.php Omvig, J. (2002). Freedom for the Blind: The secret is empowerment. Hot Springs, AR: Region VI Rehabilitation Continuing Education Program, University of Arkansas Press. Omvig, J. (2005). The characteristics of an NFB orientation center. Braille Monitor, 48(4). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05/bm0504/bm050403.htm Ozawa, M., & Yeo, Y. (2006). Work Status and Work Performance of People With Disabilities: An Empirical Study. Journal of Disability Policy Studies, 17(3), 180-190. doi:10.1177/10442073060170030601. Papadopoulos, K., & Koutsoklenis, A. (2009). Reading media used by higher-education students and graduates with visual impairments in Greece. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(11), 772-777. Phelps, A. (2005). NFB launches National Center for Mentoring Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: American Foundation for the Blind. U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from http://www.census.gov/ Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social Science, 70(4-A), 1181. Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development relationships and individuals with disabilities. American Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) Exam http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php Director, Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall PO Box 3158 Ruston LA 71272 Office: 318.257.4554 Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) Skype: edwardbell2010 ebell at latech.edu www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness ******************** "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould _______________________________________________ rehab mailing list rehab at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for rehab: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40 gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi JJ, I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the class start? Arielle On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > Do I need an advocate? > Thanks, > JJ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 From: Cindy Bennett To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing it, but I have also gotten some. Cindy On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read > a > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> RJ, >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > the >> answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> > Minh, >> > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> > skills >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> > people, >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> > training centers are necessary. >> > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >> > to >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> > school, employment and life in general. >> > >> > Bridgit >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> > From: minh ha >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> > how >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >> > my >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> > and >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> > there >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> > experience. >> > >> > Minh >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. > net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most and tend to get it least. I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in the town where the center is located but don't participate in school or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know exactly how. Arielle On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > it, but I have also gotten some. > > Cindy > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >> read >> a >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> RJ, >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get >> the >>> answer. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>> centers >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> > Minh, >>> > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >>> > an >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>> > skills >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>> > people, >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>> > Braille, >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> > training centers are necessary. >>> > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>> > polite, >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >>> > to >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >>> > in >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >>> > of >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> > school, employment and life in general. >>> > >>> > Bridgit >>> > Message: 3 >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> > From: minh ha >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >>> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>> > how >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>> > these >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >>> > my >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >>> > and >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >>> > there >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>> > skills >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> > experience. >>> > >>> > Minh >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. >> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Arielle: Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to them, it might change their mind. Thank you so much Arielle! JJ On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi JJ, > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > class start? > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >> Do I need an advocate? >> Thanks, >> JJ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai l.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list , National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi, jJ, What the hell is a para? for today, Car 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >Arielle: >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >them, it might change their mind. >Thank you so much Arielle! >JJ > >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi JJ, > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > class start? > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > >> Do I need an advocate? > >> Thanks, > >> JJ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai l.com > > > > >-- >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >8th Grade Student >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >the NFB. >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >Instagram: jj_duran13 >Skype: jj.duran13 >Kik: jjd_13 > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. net ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org ------------------------------ End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17 ************************************** From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:21:40 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:21:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Community choir question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kelsey, The best advice I can give is to think how you say a word with a given vowel sound, then emulate how you speak it when singing. For example, if the director says to use an Ah vowel sound, speak Ah out loud, consider how your mouth feels when speaking it, then try to sing it. Does this make sense? The shape of your mouth will be the same speaking when singing. Bridgit Message: 13 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:44:20 -0400 From: Kelsey Nicolay To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] community choir question Message-ID: <5281a422.450d320a.3352.ffffb0a8 at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hello, I currently sing in a community choir in my city. I like it a lot and have really become good friends with people in my section. However, I've been in choirs since fourth grade, but I still have trouble understanding vowel shapes. I guess it's because my directors really didn't know how to explain that in a way that made sense. Anyway, the director will tell the group something like: "Oo should look like ah." But if I don't know what that looks like, how am I supposed conform it? So my question to you guys is: Since this is a community choir, do I need to tell someone about this? They put me next to two very strong singers, one of which is a board member. I feel comfortable talking to both of them and they do their best to help me out, but I just feel very uncomfortable bringing this up with anyone. I think this is kind of a silly question to ask your director considering I've been in choir for this long, but I also don't want to stick out either. Should the board know about this so they can figure out how they can help me understand what he's talking about? How can my neighbors unobtrusively show me this during rehearsal? Is there a good tactile clue that I could establish with them to let me know that the director wants the vowels to be more round? If it is at all helpful, I'm a tactile learner as well as an audio learner, so I need someone to actually show me how to do something. Someone who has been in this situation before, please share your thoughts. Thanks in advance, Kelsey Nicolay From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:25:47 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:25:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002e01cedff6$22c55670$68500350$@gmail.com> If you attend the national convention, the training centers are highly toubted all week long. Though I am careful of how much of the nfb coolaide I drink, and catch phrases I swallow, I've just got to give a big thumbs up to our training centers. I am one of those individuals who have not had the opportunity to attend one myself as of yet, but I'll just give a big thank you to all of the staff who have done such a good job with the training, and a congradulations to all of the fine folks who have been deamed skilled enough to have graduated. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:11 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are better equipped to deal with life. Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later in life would flounder and find no direction. Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success, but neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have. It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers have helped many make this transition. It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations. College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills to practical situations. So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do. It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and I'm only addressing training centers. Bridgit Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete his job as well as any sighted pastor. On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Minh, >> >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> training centers are necessary. >> >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> school, employment and life in general. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> From: minh ha >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> experience. >> >> Minh >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 gmail.com > -- Kaiti ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original RJ, No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a center and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at Anywhere baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not Joe Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original RJ, They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the answer. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government training centers for the blind. There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and I could have benefited from some training. I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and resources to live independently. Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the skills, but this seems like a simple solution. Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and she has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training center due to her having a child. RJ ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ashley, The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes the NFB centers. Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you suggest or even offer day programs. The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency working with people with disabilities. Bridgit Message: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Tyler, No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one due to circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more home based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately using your own equipment and marking them if needed. Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about receiving services from her vr agency? They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who can help her at home. Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she lives in NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there are two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to find them. Ashley ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steve, I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to be further explored. Bridgit Message: 18 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RJ, It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case such as that of your friend. In general, though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might mean for bringing up a child in the long run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a confident independent traveler without putting in some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident traveler, for example, one is going to find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, or to be there for that child. Your friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take care of the child, and there could be other considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to take training seems very short-sighted to me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. Best regards, Steve Jacobson ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly when written by a blind person. Bridgit ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read a bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > RJ, > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the > answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until until now. I went to public school all my life and had many opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well instead of waiting on others. Minh On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > person. > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > time. > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > process. > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > we came up with to work. > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > least. > > Just my thoughts. > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >> RJ, >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >> to >> >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >> is >> >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >> may >> >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >> on >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >> the >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >> next >> >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >> I >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >> me >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >> friend >> >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >> the >> >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on >> it. >> Thanks, >> Misty >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve Jacobson >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> RJ, >> >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >> such >> as that of your friend. In general, >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >> mean >> >> for bringing up a child in the long >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >> confident >> independent traveler without putting in >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >> traveler, for example, one is going to >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >> or >> to be there for that child. Your >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >> care >> of the child, and there could be other >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >> take >> >> training seems very short-sighted to >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>> ago. >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "minh ha" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>going to do me any good without the experience. >> >>>Minh >> >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>>that >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>> that >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>classmates. >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>> for >>>the >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>readily >>>> available . >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>>help >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>> in >>>the >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>> us >>>to >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>> should >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>environments >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>> in >>>a >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c om >>>> >> >> >>>-- >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef ur%40gm >>>ail.com >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40 visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai l.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c om > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 From: "Loren Wakefield" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Peter, Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told you have excellent info on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM Theweird1 at mediacombb.net Loren Wakefield To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Good evening everyone, He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as guide dog instructors. Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your questions. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hannah, Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which school this is although I plan to find out. Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many teams are fine. I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him or her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole dog user group a bad representation. I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged animal given the advice so far. I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new environment and stress. I hope it?s the right decision. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hannah Chadwick Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Ashley and Josh, Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae du.o nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co m > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae du.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacom bb.net ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my perspective is that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, but you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea of going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of thinking drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd also put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school was in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth the investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not enroll. But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the Latino culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair share around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a vision teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a stickler. I love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed up with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw down my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor came over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and found the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other side of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep shade training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route to get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns could be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not everyone needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that you have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our sighted peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers could do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to take a break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and breathing a blindness independence philosophy. Joe ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in independently. I have cooked food before, and -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you. Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? Do I need an advocate? Thanks, JJ ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 This is the research report I was talking about. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Edward Bell Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech University. Abstract Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of this study was to determine the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of the factors could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in annual earnings between men and women. Education and rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; where higher educational attainment is associated with better employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings was higher than those who did not use these tools. Keywords Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey This study sought to describe the current employment status of individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the literature that analyze the employment situation of people with disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive employment. The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased employment. Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an entire array of education and employment preparation institutions (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that disability status was the variable that presented the strongest negative correlation with employment. The author determined that disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, were less likely to be employed. A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of working were significantly less for respondents with severe disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with women being less likely to be employed. The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment specifically for the blind and VI population. Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. According to the literature, there are several factors that predict employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology training were associated with being employed. In relation to those factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation teaching. In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of employment. Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR services. The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most statistically significant predictors of competitive employment outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with visual impairments who were competitively employed through the state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at closure was for consumers. An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was not a significant factor impacting on earnings. >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of the work and transportation challenges. The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation services helped them to improve their performances, that the services made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that the services helped them to maintain their jobs. Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not only provide the training that leads to employment but since they spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s job. As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional and alternative approaches related to functional independence, individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a measure of functional independence than those trained in the conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of independent living. Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment rates and higher education levels than reading print as original medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing updated Braille skills represented an important factor that contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore the use of different reading media. They found out that the most significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education can impact greater growth and evolution. Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that among the reasons participants thought they were successful in overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the employment barriers. According to participants in this study, rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to the new generations. Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable through education or training) could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes of these individuals. Research Questions. The following research questions served as the guiding principles for this study. Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research findings on the subject? Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of employment and wages for this population? Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with higher rates of employment and wages for this population? Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with increased rates of employment and wages for this population? Method Participants The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). Instruments The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 variables, covering (a) general demographics including living situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future research. Procedures All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August 31, 2011. Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. Results Demographics Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample population that comprised this study. The respondents were representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table 1). Table 1 ? Demographics Age n Mean SD 1056 46.47 13.81 Range 18-87 Gender Frequency Percent Female 595 56.34 Male 461 43.66 Total 1056 100 Race/Ethnicity Frequency Percent African American, Black 90 8.52 Asian American, Asian 35 3.31 Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) 56 5.3 Native American, Alaska Native 8 0.76 Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander 4 0.38 Other 27 2.56 White or Caucasian 836 79.17 Total 1056 100 Vision Status Frequency Percent Blind 702 66.48 Visually Impaired 354 33.52 Total 1056 100 Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of this population are currently married (45%), while just under two percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). Table 2 ? Family and Community Living Situation Frequency percent Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am purchasing 541 51.23 Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property that I pay for 300 28.41 Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home 130 12.31 Live in dormitory or other institution 25 2.37 Share an apartment or rental property with room mates 60 5.68 Total 1056 100 Marital Status Frequency Percent Divorced 107 10.13 Married 475 44.98 Separated 22 2.08 Single 353 33.43 Widow or widower 18 1.7 With significant other person 81 7.67 Total 1056 99.99 Raising Children Frequency Percent No, I have no children 605 57.29 1 child 133 12.59 2 children 176 16.67 3 children 80 7.58 4 children 35 3.31 5 children 11 1.04 6 or more children 16 1.52 Total 1056 100 Population of Your Community Frequency Percent 1-25,000 People 245 23.2 25,001?75,000 People 240 22.73 75,001?150,000 People 121 11.46 150,001?250,000 People 104 9.85 250,001?500,000 People 89 8.43 500,001?1,000,000 People 121 11.46 1,000,001?2,000,001?larger 136 12.88 Total 1056 100.01 Vocational Rehabilitation and Education The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a residential or day program, but that they did not complete their training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received training in their home or school. While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n = 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249 individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they used another type of cane/mobility device. Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read Braille (41.95%). With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and percentage of individuals by educational level before and after rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to increase in their educational attainment. Table 3 -- Education Education Before VR Frequency Percent Education After VR Frequency Percent Less than High School 194 18.37 Less than High School 13 1.23 High School diploma/GED 349 33.05 High School diploma/GED 49 4.64 Some college, but no degree 148 14.02 Some college, but no degree 141 13.35 Associates Degree/AA 50 4.73 Associates Degree/AA 76 7.2 Vocational or Trade school 15 1.42 Vocational or Trade school 53 5.02 Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree 147 13.92 Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree 246 23.3 Master?s/Graduate Degree 72 6.82 Master?s/Graduate Degree 238 22.54 Law Degree 12 1.14 Law Degree 21 1.99 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 17 1.61 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 46 4.36 Not sure or Not applicable 52 4.92 Not sure or Not applicable 173 16.38 Pre Training 1056 100 Post Training 1056 100.01 Consumer and Civic Involvement Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which participants participated in other community and/or civic activities in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic groups. Employment One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary of $35,000. Table 4 ? Employment Status Before VR Frequency Percentage After VR Frequency Percentage Full-time employed 192 18.18 Full-Time 393 37.22 Part-time employed 86 8.14 Part-Time 142 13.45 Full-time college or vocational student 119 11.27 Full-Time College 72 6.82 Volunteer part- or full-time 33 3.13 Vol. F-P 45 4.26 Full-time Homemaker 26 2.46 Homemaker 21 1.99 Retired from previous employment 35 3.31 Retired 76 7.2 Unemployed 512 48.48 Unemployed 307 29.07 N/A, I never had a VR case before 53 5.02 Total 1056 99.99 * 1056 100.01 Information was also collected with respect to the availability of fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning available to them through their work. Factors that Impact on Employment The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR services and who should most likely be available for participation in the workforce. Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of participants. Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization earning $38,200. Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools used by individuals who are blind or VI. The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the employment status of participants based on the level of education that had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral degree earning $66,900 annually. When participants were asked whether they had completed training at any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a significant difference based on the method or type of training that was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either received training at home, or who received no formal skills training were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these individuals was examined, the data again showed significant differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; those who received their training at conventional centers earned an average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no formal training earned an average of $42,753. Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion that those who return for training multiple times have significantly less employment than those who only obtain training a single time (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. More specifically, this research was interested in several specific training variables and their impact on employment. The data demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other? device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that Braille has on employment and salary. Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By combining the most salient factors together, the results show even more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. Discussion The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of them could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on employment, the following were found to be the most salient: a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement planning. c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB members. f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this population, with those having graduate-level education being employed at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These results confirm those of Aditya (2004). h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were trained a single time. i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning only $36,000 annually. Implications The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners should know that: a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment. b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money that one can earn. c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good idea. e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes good sense. f.. 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NFB launches National Center for Mentoring Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: American Foundation for the Blind. U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from http://www.census.gov/ Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social Science, 70(4-A), 1181. Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development relationships and individuals with disabilities. American Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) Exam http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php Director, Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall PO Box 3158 Ruston LA 71272 Office: 318.257.4554 Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) Skype: edwardbell2010 ebell at latech.edu www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness ******************** "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould _______________________________________________ rehab mailing list rehab at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for rehab: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40 gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi JJ, I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the class start? Arielle On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > Do I need an advocate? > Thanks, > JJ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 From: Cindy Bennett To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing it, but I have also gotten some. Cindy On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read > a > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> RJ, >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > the >> answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> > Minh, >> > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> > skills >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> > people, >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> > training centers are necessary. >> > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >> > to >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> > school, employment and life in general. >> > >> > Bridgit >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> > From: minh ha >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> > how >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >> > my >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> > and >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> > there >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> > experience. >> > >> > Minh >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. > net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most and tend to get it least. I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in the town where the center is located but don't participate in school or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know exactly how. Arielle On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > it, but I have also gotten some. > > Cindy > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >> read >> a >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> RJ, >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get >> the >>> answer. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>> centers >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> > Minh, >>> > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >>> > an >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>> > skills >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>> > people, >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>> > Braille, >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> > training centers are necessary. >>> > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>> > polite, >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >>> > to >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >>> > in >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >>> > of >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> > school, employment and life in general. >>> > >>> > Bridgit >>> > Message: 3 >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> > From: minh ha >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >>> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>> > how >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>> > these >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >>> > my >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >>> > and >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >>> > there >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>> > skills >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> > experience. >>> > >>> > Minh >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. >> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Arielle: Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to them, it might change their mind. Thank you so much Arielle! JJ On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi JJ, > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > class start? > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >> Do I need an advocate? >> Thanks, >> JJ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai l.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list , National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi, jJ, What the hell is a para? for today, Car 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >Arielle: >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >them, it might change their mind. >Thank you so much Arielle! >JJ > >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi JJ, > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > class start? > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > >> Do I need an advocate? > >> Thanks, > >> JJ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai l.com > > > > >-- >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >8th Grade Student >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >the NFB. >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >Instagram: jj_duran13 >Skype: jj.duran13 >Kik: jjd_13 > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. net ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org ------------------------------ End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17 ************************************** _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:36:53 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:36:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There are state-ran centers teaching the Structured Discovery Method like Iowa and Nebraska. In fact, Iowa was structured by Dr. Jernigan himself. There are other states, but I have experience with Iowa and Nebraska. Having said that, I would recommend an NFB center if it's possible. Bridgit Message: 8 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 13:52:51 -0500 From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy of the NFB is totally different. I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:41:34 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:41:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Oh yeah, don't forget to mention the winner of that cooking show, Master Chef or one of those, who was totally blind. She won the entire thing and didn't use sighted help to do it. I think she's from Texas. Bridgit Message: 16 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:10:49 -0500 From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question Message-ID: <002c01cedff4$0b889dc0$2299d940$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not saying that someone in the class with you won't be helpful, but there are a lot of cooks who are blind. Be sure that no matter what happens, you perform those skills yourself at some point in the class without any help whether you have someone in there with you or not. I would prefer you go to class without a helper of any sort, but since I don't know the situation, I won't simply tell you not too. However, if your help is just going to not let you learn the skills, then that is counterproductive. -----Original Message----- From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:43:45 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:43:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000b01cedff8$a5ecdc10$f1c69430$@gmail.com> I didn't mention it because I could not remember her name; thanks for the assist. God looking out. And your are write, she did not have any sighted assistance. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:42 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question Oh yeah, don't forget to mention the winner of that cooking show, Master Chef or one of those, who was totally blind. She won the entire thing and didn't use sighted help to do it. I think she's from Texas. Bridgit Message: 16 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:10:49 -0500 From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question Message-ID: <002c01cedff4$0b889dc0$2299d940$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not saying that someone in the class with you won't be helpful, but there are a lot of cooks who are blind. Be sure that no matter what happens, you perform those skills yourself at some point in the class without any help whether you have someone in there with you or not. I would prefer you go to class without a helper of any sort, but since I don't know the situation, I won't simply tell you not too. However, if your help is just going to not let you learn the skills, then that is counterproductive. -----Original Message----- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:44:26 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:44:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01cedff8$bdfef810$39fce830$@gmail.com> I remember reading about her; I was thrilled for her. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:42 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question Oh yeah, don't forget to mention the winner of that cooking show, Master Chef or one of those, who was totally blind. She won the entire thing and didn't use sighted help to do it. I think she's from Texas. Bridgit Message: 16 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:10:49 -0500 From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question Message-ID: <002c01cedff4$0b889dc0$2299d940$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not saying that someone in the class with you won't be helpful, but there are a lot of cooks who are blind. Be sure that no matter what happens, you perform those skills yourself at some point in the class without any help whether you have someone in there with you or not. I would prefer you go to class without a helper of any sort, but since I don't know the situation, I won't simply tell you not too. However, if your help is just going to not let you learn the skills, then that is counterproductive. -----Original Message----- _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 22:47:31 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:47:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world References: <002e01cedff6$22c55670$68500350$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but the proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone says they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers who sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? Apparently ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > If you attend the national convention, the training centers are highly > toubted all week long. Though I am careful of how much of the nfb coolaide > I drink, and catch phrases I swallow, I've just got to give a big thumbs up > to our training centers. I am one of those individuals who have not had the > opportunity to attend one myself as of yet, but I'll just give a big thank > you to all of the staff who have done such a good job with the training, and > a congradulations to all of the fine folks who have been deamed skilled > enough to have graduated. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit > Pollpeter > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:11 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > > They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good > government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is > taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given > situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools > and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are > better equipped to deal with life. > > Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who > didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who > allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many > of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget > that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or > it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in > life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you > are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people > back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later > in life would flounder and find no direction. > > Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success, but > neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have. > It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training > centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools > like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find > confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you > have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years > of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers > have helped many make this transition. > > It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach > skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations. > College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you > theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills > to practical situations. > > So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do. > It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and > successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the > exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and > training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and > I'm only addressing training centers. > > Bridgit > > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real > world > Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know > what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if > he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete > his job as well as any sighted pastor. > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > >> Minh, > >> > >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >> > >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >> > >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >> training centers are necessary. > >> > >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >> > >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >> > >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > >> school, employment and life in general. > >> > >> Bridgit > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >> From: minh ha > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> Message-ID: > >> > >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >> > >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > >> experience. > >> > >> Minh > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 > gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > RJ, > No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. > But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. > You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. > So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a > center > and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at > Anywhere > baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not > Joe > Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > RJ, > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > the > answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. > No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government > training centers for the blind. > > There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various > reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few > receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it > really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined > ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those > mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from > first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my > blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I > was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once > recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and > I could have benefited from some training. > > I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot > for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills > beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. > > Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for > most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a > lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a > lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and > resources to live independently. > > Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training > if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone > would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to > work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped > for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully > presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people > who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, > though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the > skills, but this seems like a simple solution. > > Bridgit > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and > she > has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training > center > due to her having a child. RJ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Ashley, > > The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a > major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes > the NFB centers. > > Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend > as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most > are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough > to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow > people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other > institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you > suggest or even offer day programs. > > The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government > doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or > the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will > not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency > working with people with disabilities. > > Bridgit > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Tyler, > No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one > due to > circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. > It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more > home > based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately > > using your own equipment and marking them if needed. > > Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about > receiving > services from her vr agency? > They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who > can > help her at home. > Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she > lives in > NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there > are > two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. > Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to > find > them. > > Ashley > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Steve, > > I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively > care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids > just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt > I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most > parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, > but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we > require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, > hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who > are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to > achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only > enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. > > I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can > be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this > situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the > support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to > be further explored. > > Bridgit > Message: 18 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 > From: "Steve Jacobson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > RJ, > > It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > such as that of your friend. In general, > though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might > mean for bringing up a child in the long > run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > confident independent traveler without putting in > some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident > traveler, for example, one is going to > find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, > or to be there for that child. Your > friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > care of the child, and there could be other > considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to > take training seems very short-sighted to > me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack > thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it > doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly > when written by a blind person. > > Bridgit > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > read a > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > RJ, > > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > the > > answer. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RJ Sandefur > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > Minh, > > > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > > training centers are necessary. > > > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing to > > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > > > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > > > Bridgit > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > > From: minh ha > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of my > > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > > experience. > > > > > > Minh > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until > until now. I went to public school all my life and had many > opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held > leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't > think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give > their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them > for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, > which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 > is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind > giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't > otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at > all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more > than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as > cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can > participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that > school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to > ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an > entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able > to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful > support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own > potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also > think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well > instead of waiting on others. > > Minh > > On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > > person. > > > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > > time. > > > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > > process. > > > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > > we came up with to work. > > > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > > least. > > > > Just my thoughts. > > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > >> RJ, > >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever > center > >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for > her > >> to > >> > >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory > >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of > dormitories, > >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to > stay > >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend > may > >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while > she > >> is > >> > >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the > center > >> may > >> > >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with > her > >> on > >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. > >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, > but > >> the > >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help > me > >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity > to > >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to > attend > >> next > >> > >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to > me > >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out > so > >> I > >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to > allow > >> me > >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your > >> friend > >> > >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any > of > >> the > >> > >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with > her on > >> it. > >> Thanks, > >> Misty > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Steve Jacobson > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> RJ, > >> > >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > >> such > >> as that of your friend. In general, > >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well > might > >> mean > >> > >> for bringing up a child in the long > >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > >> confident > >> independent traveler without putting in > >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a > confident > >> traveler, for example, one is going to > >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to > be, > >> or > >> to be there for that child. Your > >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > >> care > >> of the child, and there could be other > >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child > to > >> take > >> > >> training seems very short-sighted to > >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Steve Jacobson > >> > >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> > >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four > years > >>> ago. > >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to > a > >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "minh ha" > >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM > >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired > over > >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, > >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to > >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to > teach > >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain > >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I > can > >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > >>>going to do me any good without the experience. > >> > >>>Minh > >> > >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. > >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) > is > >>>that > >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in > skills > >>>> that > >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their > >>>classmates. > >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are > adapted > >>>> for > >>>the > >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not > always > >>>readily > >>>> available . > >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that > will > >>>help > >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and > succeed > >>>> in > >>>the > >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that > enable > >>>> us > >>>to > >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only > can we > >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this > >>>> should > >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. > >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning > >>>environments > >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that > generally > >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real > world > >>>> in > >>>a > >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave > you > >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. > >>>> Darian > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c > om > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>-- > >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the > dusty > >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > >> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>nabs-l: > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef > ur%40gm > >>>ail.com > >> > >> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>nabs-l: > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40 > visi.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai > l.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 > gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c > om > > > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 > From: "Loren Wakefield" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Peter, > > Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told > you have excellent info on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Donahue > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM > > Theweird1 at mediacombb.net > > Loren Wakefield > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Good evening everyone, > > He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael > California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's > national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees > and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One > area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind > guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. > We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged > blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog > program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as > guide dog instructors. > > Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide > Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB > believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our > guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and > custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my > knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog > Consumer's Bill of Rights. > If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted > their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search > for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that > document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would > implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your > questions. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > Hannah, > Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. > He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which > school this is although I plan to find out. > > Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many > teams > are fine. > I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him > or > her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. > But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole > dog user group a bad representation. > > I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged > animal > given the advice so far. > I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her > decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new > environment > and stress. I hope it?s the right decision. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Hannah Chadwick > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Ashley and Josh, > Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great > things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what > you > put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in > to > your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and > address > many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if > you > guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has > never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't > judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us > free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I > strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their > guides > and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so > great. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. > AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their > teams > better than others. > I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad > teams. > It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility > to > correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward > the > dog too. > > Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you > want, > not the one in CA. > You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. > Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well > behaved dogs. > In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that > cubicle. > > They do not make messes. > They do not sniff excessively. > And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met > new > people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. > > > Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to > national convention. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi Julie. > You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. > I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! > The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! > All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. > This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for > everyone, > and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has > turned > me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. > Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with > your > school! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity > [kaybaycar at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi all, > > I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is > worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's > behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us > means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make > judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on > college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt > well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about > how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the > challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized > we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. > Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. > > As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but > most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing > people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide > us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we > are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it > to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of > dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how > important this is after all. > > Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate > being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my > dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The > reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a > little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if > they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog > no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the > bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other > part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. > But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and > intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to > others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure > you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a > dog at this college visit. > > On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Great post, Ashley! > > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > > roam > > around the room, when not being handled? > > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in > dog, > > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > > Blind! > > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, > because > > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got > them! > > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Mark, > > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would > have > > no > > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people > or > > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay > there. > > > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > > when > > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > > might > > think again. > > > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them > in > > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes > responsibility. > > You > > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving > like a > > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and > should > > I > > mention barks? > > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. > But to > > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional > setting > > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > > comes > > responsibility. > > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to > have > > a > > guide dog. > > > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark J. Cadigan > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of > Guide > > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw > from > > when giving advice. > > > > > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. > I > > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact > I > > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people > say > > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would > definitely do > > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but > to > > get > > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > > student. > > > > > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there > problem > > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide > dog, > > and > > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > > said, > > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you > should > > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > > someone > > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no > clue > > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog > on > > the > > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and > not > > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but > they > > are > > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "lizzy" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > > >> Hi All, > >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but > now I > >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school > going > >> not > >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it > is at > >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had > my > >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided > about > >> if > >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My > reasons > >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a > lot > >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). > I've > >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty > simple (a > >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for > this or > >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and > she is > >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't > make > >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an > >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a > current > >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs > or > >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. > I > >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think > I'll > >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the > >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > >> greatly appreciated. > >> Thanks, > >> Lizzy > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae > du.o > nmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co > m > > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae > du.o > nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gma > il.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacom > bb.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my > perspective is > that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they > could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone > could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, > but > you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea > of > going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a > Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of > thinking > drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd > also > put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school > was > in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth > the > investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not > enroll. > But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the > Latino > culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair > share > around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a > vision > teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a > stickler. I > love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school > years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed > up > with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw > down > my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor > came > over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and > found > the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other > side > of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep > shade > training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as > those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route > to > get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns > could > be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set > specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not > everyone > needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that > you > have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and > deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our > sighted > peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers > could > do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to > take a > break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the > challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and > breathing a blindness independence philosophy. > > Joe > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 > From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food > before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you. > > Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > > > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran > wrote: > > > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > > > -- > > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > > 8th Grade Student > > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > > the NFB. > > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > > Instagram: jj_duran13 > > Skype: jj.duran13 > > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > Do I need an advocate? > Thanks, > JJ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult > Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > This is the research report I was talking about. > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Edward Bell > Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 > Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and > Employment Survey:Final Results > To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC > mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, > pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list > > Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment > Survey:Final Results > > By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino > > > Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional > Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech > University. > > > > Abstract > Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United > States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of > this study was to determine the current employment status of these > individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The > study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, > and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to > determine whether some of the factors could be identified as > contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the > employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually > impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings > show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in > annual earnings between men and women. Education and > rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; > where higher educational attainment is associated with better > employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained > under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be > employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, > for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white > cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings > was higher than those who did not use these tools. > > > > Keywords > Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training > centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery > > > > Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey > This study sought to describe the current employment status of > individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and > to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it > explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status > for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of > the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the > literature that analyze the employment situation of people with > disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related > to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. > > Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports > The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United > States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the > 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults > age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as > individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when > wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that > they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau > of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million > individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision > loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working > age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the > civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the > labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported > month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though > they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor > force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population > ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision > loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, > 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that > by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the > vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive > employment. > > The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the > current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more > importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic > factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased > employment. > > Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System > In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with > significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social > services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them > in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal > VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial > support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and > Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an > entire array of education and employment preparation institutions > (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those > who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems > worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many > others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with > continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. > > The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes > comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA > VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with > employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that > disability status was the variable that presented the strongest > negative correlation with employment. The author determined that > disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, > particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females > with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, > were less likely to be employed. > > A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of > individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no > disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the > authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability > groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more > than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that > the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of > disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% > were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the > severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% > respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that > disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the > likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of > working were significantly less for respondents with severe > disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly > earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe > disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. > According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of > obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability > status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more > likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. > > Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related > predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who > received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a > U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received > VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services > (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those > individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate > (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were > individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, > gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with > women being less likely to be employed. > > The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment > specifically for the blind and VI population. > > Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System > Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and > the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients > with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for > Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of > consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% > of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive > employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in > sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive > employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, > clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that > out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the > legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of > noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. > > According to the literature, there are several factors that predict > employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, > training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent > across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) > found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an > integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated > with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a > primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, > and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall > satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from > family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology > training were associated with being employed. In relation to those > factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they > identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation > and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation > teaching. > > In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a > certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having > worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to > rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between > the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors > of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) > concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated > with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work > experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive > technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of > employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, > and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and > the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a > secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of > employment. > > Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor > had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those > individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher > level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by > Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was > a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment > outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision > loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other > hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of > the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR > services. > > The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed > that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after > receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were > legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African > American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income > as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special > education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, > Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most > statistically significant predictors of competitive employment > outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were > weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), > gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. > > Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors > mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with > visual impairments who were competitively employed through the > state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) > concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some > of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, > age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual > impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. > Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of > education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in > earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater > amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at > closure was for consumers. > > An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on > employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI > was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served > these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the > mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly > higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, > Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a > relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers > who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more > chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), > however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was > not a significant factor impacting on earnings. > > >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that > contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the > perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to > the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable > with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by > eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held > to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study > found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. > He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology > skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. > Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their > competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of > the work and transportation challenges. > > The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those > factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and > McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the > general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to > print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. > Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to > employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more > issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those > who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the > skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. > When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor > did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help > in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; > provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of > counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only > 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to > obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation > services helped them to improve their performances, that the services > made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that > the services helped them to maintain their jobs. > > Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the > competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. > Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 > data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was > significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based > on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have > shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In > addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the > factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, > education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned > $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a > $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread > between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings > had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the > other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the > other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by > 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and > Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those > with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of > being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did > individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American > veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where > they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. > > White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and > having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor > appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions > (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, > having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work > experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, > Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors > and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not > only provide the training that leads to employment but since they > spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a > community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s > vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s > job. > > As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main > philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: > the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured > Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service > offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn > independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent > approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving > skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National > Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on > experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the > instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the > instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an > orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends > upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the > information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the > Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to > guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly > relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages > the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National > Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). > > The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the > different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind > or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his > study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of > the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the > philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional > and alternative approaches related to functional independence, > individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a > measure of functional independence than those trained in the > conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of > training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by > examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are > employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the > shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately > utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size > was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training > approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences > were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between > those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were > trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya > (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white > cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of > independent living. > > Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles > (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that > predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment > rates and higher education levels than reading print as original > medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized > Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower > unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original > reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille > as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for > employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used > Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at > a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print > did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read > Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing > updated Braille skills represented an important factor that > contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. > > Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher > education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore > the use of different reading media. They found out that the most > significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual > status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. > Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the > increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with > training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established > tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the > frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that > efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in > Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age > at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille > courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. > > Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, > and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some > training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement > for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) > while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training > elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly > reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, > 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what > constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. > > Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated > the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective > outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & > Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer > interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation > process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as > well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as > effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision > making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). > Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, > social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support > interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, > 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, > self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a > consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation > process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). > However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of > families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that > put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that > promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What > research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve > as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education > can impact greater growth and evolution. > > Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that > among the reasons participants thought they were successful in > overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing > networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a > relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to > others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the > employment barriers. According to participants in this study, > rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring > opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. > The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could > assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. > > Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a > consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient > testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their > involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. > Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives > of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent > and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as > positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with > proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, > successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to > the new generations. > > Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture > a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally > blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study > sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, > and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to > determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable > through education or training) could be identified as contributing to > the employment outcomes of these individuals. > > Research Questions. The following research questions served as the > guiding principles for this study. > > Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a > national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research > findings on the subject? > Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial > identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of > employment and wages for this population? > Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation > with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with > higher rates of employment and wages for this population? > Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, > adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with > increased rates of employment and wages for this population? > > Method > Participants > The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI > adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United > States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an > average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals > were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), > who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 > Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native > Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific > Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who > reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). > > Instruments > The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult > Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 > variables, covering (a) general demographics including living > situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and > consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) > employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future > research. > > Procedures > All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent > document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of > requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a > notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study > was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional > Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for > participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting > the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of > the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a > research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten > minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August > 31, 2011. > > Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of > the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment > situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the > United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach > individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. > The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all > available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the > blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National > Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically > to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office > with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The > invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve > the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for > the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The > request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and > adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 > requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers > that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 > print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 > annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the > participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were > distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America > Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters > and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social > media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. > > Results > Demographics > Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were > captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample > population that comprised this study. The respondents were > representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being > from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from > Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind > (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table > 1). > > Table 1 ? Demographics > > Age > > > > n > Mean > SD > > 1056 > 46.47 > 13.81 > > > Range > 18-87 > > > > > > Gender > Frequency > Percent > > Female > 595 > 56.34 > > Male > 461 > 43.66 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Race/Ethnicity > Frequency > Percent > > African American, Black > 90 > 8.52 > > Asian American, Asian > 35 > 3.31 > > Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) > 56 > 5.3 > > Native American, Alaska Native > 8 > 0.76 > > Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander > 4 > 0.38 > > Other > 27 > 2.56 > > White or Caucasian > 836 > 79.17 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > > > Vision Status > Frequency > Percent > > Blind > 702 > 66.48 > > Visually Impaired > 354 > 33.52 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital > status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority > of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that > they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported > living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of > this population are currently married (45%), while just under two > percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample > (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next > largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report > having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) > report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the > community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in > small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second > largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between > 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided > in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder > fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). > > Table 2 ? Family and Community > > > Living Situation Frequency > percent > > Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am > purchasing > 541 > 51.23 > > Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property > that I pay for > 300 > 28.41 > > Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home > 130 > 12.31 > > Live in dormitory or other institution > 25 > 2.37 > > Share an apartment or rental property with room mates > 60 > 5.68 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Marital Status > Frequency > Percent > > Divorced > 107 > 10.13 > > Married > 475 > 44.98 > > Separated > 22 > 2.08 > > Single > 353 > 33.43 > > Widow or widower > 18 > 1.7 > > With significant other person > 81 > 7.67 > > Total > 1056 > 99.99 > > > > > > Raising Children > Frequency > Percent > > No, I have no children > 605 > 57.29 > > 1 child > 133 > 12.59 > > 2 children > 176 > 16.67 > > 3 children > 80 > 7.58 > > 4 children > 35 > 3.31 > > 5 children > 11 > 1.04 > > 6 or more children > 16 > 1.52 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Population of Your Community > Frequency > Percent > > 1-25,000 People > 245 > 23.2 > > 25,001?75,000 People > 240 > 22.73 > > 75,001?150,000 People > 121 > 11.46 > > 150,001?250,000 People > 104 > 9.85 > > 250,001?500,000 People > 89 > 8.43 > > 500,001?1,000,000 People > 121 > 11.46 > > 1,000,001?2,000,001?larger > 136 > 12.88 > > Total > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Vocational Rehabilitation and Education > The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to > VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss > training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with > their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that > they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know > (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported > having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 > individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. > When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to > blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or > daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have > never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual > impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed > (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. > Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a > residential or day program, but that they did not complete their > training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they > attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received > training in their home or school. > > While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, > this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive > some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their > training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals > who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were > at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when > they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use > of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, > ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught > using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n = > 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between > my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked > whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that > they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 > individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and > 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When > asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for > current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is > lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A > folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249 > individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in > height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower > than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they > used another type of cane/mobility device. > > Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of > Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille > at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the > entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), > while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). > When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read > Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently > read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read > Braille (41.95%). > > With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about > their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation > training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. > Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and > percentage of individuals by educational level before and after > rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of > individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from > pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they > attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in > education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend > rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 > individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help > them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 > individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals > (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was > either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to > increase in their educational attainment. > > Table 3 -- Education > > > Education > Before VR Frequency > Percent > Education > After VR > Frequency > Percent > > Less than High School > 194 > 18.37 > Less than High School > 13 > 1.23 > > High School diploma/GED > 349 > 33.05 > High School diploma/GED > 49 > 4.64 > > Some college, but no degree > 148 > 14.02 > Some college, but no degree > 141 > 13.35 > > Associates Degree/AA > 50 > 4.73 > Associates Degree/AA > 76 > 7.2 > > Vocational or Trade school > 15 > 1.42 > Vocational or Trade school > 53 > 5.02 > > Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree > 147 > 13.92 > Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree > 246 > 23.3 > > Master?s/Graduate Degree > 72 > 6.82 > Master?s/Graduate Degree > 238 > 22.54 > > Law Degree > 12 > 1.14 > Law Degree > 21 > 1.99 > > Doctorate degree/post graduate training > 17 > 1.61 > Doctorate degree/post graduate training > 46 > 4.36 > > Not sure or > Not applicable > 52 > 4.92 > Not sure or > Not applicable > 173 > 16.38 > > Pre Training > 1056 > 100 > Post Training > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Consumer and Civic Involvement > Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer > organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who > affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with > both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the > NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer > organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of > consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) > reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 > individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no > leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local > or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national > leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold > several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. > > Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which > participants participated in other community and/or civic activities > in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least > one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number > of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) > stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or > place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding > leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four > individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals > (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals > (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and > 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic > groups. > > Employment > One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the > employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and > specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. > As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed > prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) > were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR > services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed > full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained > unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of > individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who > were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this > survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For > these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = > $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary > of $35,000. > > Table 4 ? Employment Status > > > Before VR Frequency > Percentage > After VR > Frequency > Percentage > > Full-time employed > 192 > 18.18 > Full-Time > 393 > 37.22 > > Part-time employed > 86 > 8.14 > Part-Time > 142 > 13.45 > > Full-time college or vocational student > 119 > 11.27 > Full-Time College > 72 > 6.82 > > Volunteer part- or full-time > 33 > 3.13 > Vol. F-P > 45 > 4.26 > > Full-time Homemaker > 26 > 2.46 > Homemaker > 21 > 1.99 > > Retired from previous employment > 35 > 3.31 > Retired > 76 > 7.2 > > Unemployed > 512 > 48.48 > Unemployed > 307 > 29.07 > > N/A, I never had a VR case before > 53 > 5.02 > > > > > Total > 1056 > 99.99 > * > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Information was also collected with respect to the availability of > fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants > reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical > insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals > (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 > individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning > available to them through their work. > > Factors that Impact on Employment > The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general > demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment > characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are > blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, > it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and > educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors > that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The > demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are > representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR > data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of > the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not > know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) > of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that > their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample > whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of > individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis > will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR > services and who should most likely be available for participation in > the workforce. > > Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic > classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to > determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The > data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the > consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was > there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of > participants. > > Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind > or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those > with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a > greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant > difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, > RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a > rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually > impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does > exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were > non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind > individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning > $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant > differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were > employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant > difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, > p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females > earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported > racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences > were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. > > Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI > help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data > demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = > 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in > the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the > NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no > participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed > at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on > annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members > earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning > $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization > earning $38,200. > > Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that > are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to > evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., > education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) > demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading > factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact > in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, > this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills > training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. > Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white > cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools > used by individuals who are blind or VI. > > The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the > employment status of participants based on the level of education that > had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further > analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or > who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those > who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; > those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; > and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of > 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the > annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = > .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high > school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; > those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a > master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral > degree earning $66,900 annually. > > When participants were asked whether they had completed training at > any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split > almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed > training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving > training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment > outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a > more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a > significant difference based on the method or type of training that > was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data > demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a > Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of > 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional > training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either > received training at home, or who received no formal skills training > were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these > individuals was examined, the data again showed significant > differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend > continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a > Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; > those who received their training at conventional centers earned an > average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no > formal training earned an average of $42,753. > > Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., > the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the > literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for > example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on > employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based > training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one > concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion > that those who return for training multiple times have significantly > less employment than those who only obtain training a single time > (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained > training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving > training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same > trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = > .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and > those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. > > More specifically, this research was interested in several specific > training variables and their impact on employment. The data > demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long > white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report > currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were > evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that > individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed > at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = > 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of > 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. > The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income > of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users > earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average > of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were > next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to > employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference > (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane > that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, > those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height > being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other? > device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, > the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings > (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users > earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning > $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. > > The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of > Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. > Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at > some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% > reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers > employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? > The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, > 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed > at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a > rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more > significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille > readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning > an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in > annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that > Braille has on employment and salary. > > Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant > impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By > combining the most salient factors together, the results show even > more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who > complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, > continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane > for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of > 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those > individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no > formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer > organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed > at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. > > Discussion > The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in > the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study > was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and > to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. > In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, > education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this > population in order to determine whether some of them could be > identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. > > The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since > this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of > rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of > 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of > demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on > employment, the following were found to be the most salient: > > a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI > are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly > similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for > this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing > research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that > there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. > b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have > access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to > dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement > planning. > c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly > equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on > average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are > consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, > 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). > d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of > employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, > such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. > e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were > employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who > affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning > $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization > tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB > members. > f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational > attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this > population, with those having graduate-level education being employed > at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, > and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. > g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively > related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured > Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning > $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based > programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These > results confirm those of Aditya (2004). > h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), > was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who > receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in > comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, > and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were > trained a single time. > i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily > mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a > significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. > j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed > at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille > readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. > k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete > training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the > NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a > rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. > l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not > trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use > a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning > only $36,000 annually. > > > Implications > The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains > extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may > help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint > and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of > competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. > Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to > have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers > and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the > benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of > these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to > make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of > the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners > should know that: > > a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment > need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment. > b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive > difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money > that one can earn. > c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to > be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. > d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good > idea. > e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes > good sense. > f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than > getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments. > > > References > Amato, S. (2009). Challenges and Solutions in Teaching Braille in an > Online-Education Model. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, > 103(2), 78-80. > > American Foundation for the Blind (2012). Adults with vision loss. > Retrieved from > http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?FolderID=2&SectionID=15&TopicID=413&Docu > mentID=4385 > > Aditya, R. N. (2004). A comparison of two orientation and mobility > certification programs. Unpublished report prepared for the > Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), Washington, DC. > > Baldwin, M. L., & Schumacher, E. J. (2002). A note on job mobility > among workers with disabilities. Industrial Relations: A Journal of > Economy & Society, 41(3), 430-441. > > Beck-Winchatz, B., & Riccobono, M. (2008). Advancing participation of > blind students in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Advances > in Space Research, 42(11), 1855-1858. doi:10.1016/j.asr.2007.05.080. > > Bennetts, C. (2003). Mentoring youth: trend and tradition. British > Journal of Guidance & Counseling, 31(1), 63-76. > doi:10.1080/0306988031000086170 > > Bell, E. C. (2010). Competitive employment for consumers who are > legally blind: A 10-year retrospective study. Journal of > Rehabilitation Research & Development, 47(2), 109-116. > doi:10.1682/JRRD.2009.08.0120 > > Bell, E. C. (2012). Mentoring transition-age youth with blindness. The > Journal of Special Education, 46(3), 170-179. > > Capella, M. (2001). Predicting earnings of vocational rehabilitation > clients with visual impairments. Journal of Rehabilitation, 67(4), > 43-47. > > Capella-McDonnall, M. (2005). Predictors of competitive employment for > blind and visually impaired consumers of vocational rehabilitation > services. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(5), 303-315. > > Cavenaugh, B. (1999). Relationship of agency structure and client > characteristics to rehabilitation services and outcomes for consumers > who are blind. Unpublished manuscript, Mississippi State University, > Rehabilitation Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low > Vision, Starkville, MS. > > Cavenaugh, B. S., Giesen, J. M., & Pierce, S. J. (2000). > Rehabilitation of visually impaired persons in separate and general > agencies. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 94(3), 133-145. > > Cavenaugh, B., Giesen, J., & Steinman, B. (2006). Contextual effects > of race or ethnicity on acceptance for vocational rehabilitation of > consumers who are legally blind. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 100(7), 425-436. > > Crudden, A., & McBroom, L. (1999). Barriers to employment: A survey of > employed persons who are visually impaired. Journal of Visual > Impairment and Blindness, 93(6), 341-350. > > Darensbourg, B. (2013). Predictors of competitive employment of VR > consumers with blindness or visual impairments. Journal of Vocational > Rehabilitation. 38(1), 29-34. doi: 10.3233/JVR-120618 > > Ferguson, R. (2001). We know who we are: A history of the blind in > challenging educational and socially constructed policies: A study in > policy archeology. San Francisco, CA: Caddo Gap. > > Fireison, C., & Moore, J. (1998). Employment Outcomes and Educational > Backgrounds of Legally Blind Adults Employed in Sheltered Industrial > Settings. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 92(11), 740-47. > > Golub, D. B. (2006). A model of successful work experience for > employees who are visually impaired: The results of a study. Journal > of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(12), 715-725. > > Hall, L. J., & McGregor, J. A. (2000). A follow-up study of the peer > relationships of children with disabilities in an inclusive school. > The Journal of Special Education, 34(3), 114-126. > > Harris, A. (2008). Messages to take away: Final reflections on > residential rehabilitation. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080216.htm > > Hershenson, D. (1998). Systemic, ecological model for rehabilitation > counseling. Rehabilitation Counseling Bulletin, 42(1), 40-50. > > Jeanmarie, K. & Strauser, D. R. (2000). Job readiness, self-efficacy > and work personality: A comparison of trainee and instructor > perceptions. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 14(1) 13-21. > > Leonard, R., D'Allura, T., & Horowitz, A. (1999). Factors associated > with employment among persons who have a vision impairment: A > follow-up of vocational placement referrals. Journal of Vocational > Rehabilitation, 12(1), 33-43. > > Marks, S., & Feeley, D. (1995). Transition in action: Michigan's > experience. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(3), 272-275. > > Martz, E., & Xu, Y. (2008). Person-related and service-related factors > predicting employment of individuals with disabilities. Journal of > Vocational Rehabilitation, 28(2), 97-104. > > Mayo, S., Allen, P. & Deden, J. (2008). A governing philosophy: > Strategies for implementing a progressive approach in a center-based > environment. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080209.htm > > Mettler, R. (2008). Cognitive learning theory and cane travel > instructors: A new paradigm (2nd ed.). Lincoln, NE: Nebraska > Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > > McDonnall, M., & Crudden, A. (2009). Factors affecting the successful > employment of transition-age youths with visual impairments. Journal > of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(6), 329-341. > > Miller, J. (2002). The Role of Orientation and Mobility Instructors > and Rehabilitation Teachers in Enhancing Employment Opportunities for > Persons Who Are Visually Impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 96(12), 852-55. > > Nagle, K. M. (2001). Transition to employment and community life for > youths with visual impairments: Current status and future directions. > Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 95(12), 725-738. > > National Blindness Professional Certification Board (2012). Structured > Discovery Cane Travel. Retrieved from > http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/sdct.php > > Omvig, J. (2002). Freedom for the Blind: The secret is empowerment. > Hot Springs, AR: Region VI Rehabilitation Continuing Education > Program, University of Arkansas Press. > > Omvig, J. (2005). The characteristics of an NFB orientation center. > Braille Monitor, 48(4). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05/bm0504/bm050403.htm > > Ozawa, M., & Yeo, Y. (2006). Work Status and Work Performance of > People With Disabilities: An Empirical Study. Journal of Disability > Policy Studies, 17(3), 180-190. doi:10.1177/10442073060170030601. > > Papadopoulos, K., & Koutsoklenis, A. (2009). Reading media used by > higher-education students and graduates with visual impairments in > Greece. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(11), 772-777. > > Phelps, A. (2005). NFB launches National Center for Mentoring > Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. > > Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes > of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of > Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. > > Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on > employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, > Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. > > Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, > income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. > > Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it > works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm > > Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment > issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & > M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). > Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. > > Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: > Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille > Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm > > Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, > families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: > American Foundation for the Blind. > > U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from > http://www.census.gov/ > > Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for > empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. > > Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment > outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation > program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. > Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social > Science, 70(4-A), 1181. > > Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). > Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development > relationships and individuals with disabilities. American > Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. > > > > Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC > > REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) > Exam > http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php > > Director, Professional Development and Research > Institute on Blindness > Louisiana Tech University > 210 Woodard Hall > PO Box 3158 > Ruston LA 71272 > Office: 318.257.4554 > Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) > Skype: edwardbell2010 > ebell at latech.edu > www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness > ******************** > "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of > Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal > talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." > -- Stephen Jay Gould > _______________________________________________ > rehab mailing list > rehab at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > rehab: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40 > gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi JJ, > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > class start? > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > > Do I need an advocate? > > Thanks, > > JJ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 > From: Cindy Bennett > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > it, but I have also gotten some. > > Cindy > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > read > > a > > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > >> RJ, > >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > > the > >> answer. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: RJ Sandefur > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >> centers > >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >> > Minh, > >> > > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > as an > >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > children, > >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >> > > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >> > skills > >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >> > people, > >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >> > > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > skills > >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >> > training centers are necessary. > >> > > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing > >> > to > >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >> > > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > you in > >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >> > > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > advantage of > >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > >> > school, employment and life in general. > >> > > >> > Bridgit > >> > Message: 3 > >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >> > From: minh ha > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > Message-ID: > >> > > >> > > > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >> > > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > saying > >> > how > >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success > >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > Maybe > >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of > >> > my > >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > kitchen > >> > and > >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > >> > there > >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > the > >> > experience. > >> > > >> > Minh > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >> ail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > > net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi all, > > I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > and tend to get it least. > I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > exactly how. > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > > it, but I have also gotten some. > > > > Cindy > > > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > >> read > >> a > >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >>> RJ, > >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > >> the > >>> answer. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >>> centers > >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> > >>> > Minh, > >>> > > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > as > >>> > an > >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > children, > >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >>> > > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >>> > skills > >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >>> > people, > >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >>> > > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people > without > >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > >>> > Braille, > >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > skills > >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >>> > training centers are necessary. > >>> > > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the > world > >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > >>> > polite, > >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing > >>> > to > >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >>> > > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > you > >>> > in > >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as > a > >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >>> > > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > advantage > >>> > of > >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > >>> > school, employment and life in general. > >>> > > >>> > Bridgit > >>> > Message: 3 > >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >>> > From: minh ha > >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > Message-ID: > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >>> > > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > saying > >>> > how > >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success > >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > >>> > these > >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > Maybe > >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of > >>> > my > >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; > she > >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > kitchen > >>> > and > >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too > much > >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't > see > >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had > many > >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > >>> > there > >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > >>> > skills > >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > the > >>> > experience. > >>> > > >>> > Minh > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >>> ail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > >> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >> ail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Cindy Bennett > > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Arielle: > Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this > situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not > required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for > me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of > participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even > met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me > was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails > in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, > I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see > another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to > them, it might change their mind. > Thank you so much Arielle! > JJ > > On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi JJ, > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > class start? > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student > attending > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is > allowed > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that > I > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > >> Do I need an advocate? > >> Thanks, > >> JJ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai > l.com > > > > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 > From: Carly Mihalakis > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > , National Association of Blind Students > mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hi, jJ, > > What the hell is a para? > for today, Car > 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >Arielle: > >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this > >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not > >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for > >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of > >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even > >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me > >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails > >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, > >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see > >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to > >them, it might change their mind. > >Thank you so much Arielle! > >JJ > > > >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > > Hi JJ, > > > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot > of > > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you > should > > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your > TVI > > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you > can > > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in > the > > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does > the > > > class start? > > > > > > Arielle > > > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student > attending > > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is > allowed > > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and > the > > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me > in > > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am > good > > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting > that I > > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't > listening? > > >> Do I need an advocate? > > >> Thanks, > > >> JJ > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai > l.com > > > > > > > > >-- > >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > >8th Grade Student > >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > >the NFB. > >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > >Instagram: jj_duran13 > >Skype: jj.duran13 > >Kik: jjd_13 > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. > net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17 > ************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 22:50:09 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:50:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ECBDA01BE7A40719CDE16C75CE73E32@OwnerPC> HI Bridgit, Good points. I think those writing who have not attended a training center are those who learned skills elsewhere such as parents, other family members or friends. I think many of us have said the same things. Common points are that its up to the individual to succeed, its our choice to attend a center, and a center in and of itself will not guarantee success. I am reading about you students who say you learned at home and were expected to contribute to the household. Joe, Kaiti, and Mary are just some people that come to mind. I commend you and your families for having regular expectations and putting in the effort to contribute to the house and well, life. As Bridgit said, too often parents low expectations get in the way or they do not make time to teach their children. My parents taught me about behavior like manners, not to pick one's nose or chew with mouth open, how to play, and always were supportive with school matter. My dad made financial sacrifices to hire tutors for subjects which I struggled in and the teachers did not help me much after school as they should have done. So I was tutored to keep up with math and science courses. But, my parents did not teach or expect me to do living skills on my own. I did not have chores except for cleaning my room. I was not involved in cooking either. So, I learned these skills from a vision teacher and when I was eligible to receive services, I got rehab teaching service at home. I also tried our state center as well. The college analogy generally works. Centers teach the basics and you apply those to the world you choose to live in after training just as you apply the general writing and reasoning skills from college to the real world. However, I'd disagree about the job skills. >From what I heard, nfb centers do have a job readiness class. They help you make a resume and cover letters and prep for interviews. I just read Blind Inc's site, and it says on it that students can do job shadowing. So they do cover the basics. Other centers have more specific job training. Cleveland sight center has a call center program. I know its not the greatest, but Lions world services has a good track record for the IRS program and getting people jobs in the IRS. So some centers do have more job specifics. But in general, I would hope if you have the basics from a NFB center you could train with sighted colleagues and don't need a specific blind center for it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:10 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are better equipped to deal with life. Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later in life would flounder and find no direction. Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success, but neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have. It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers have helped many make this transition. It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations. College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills to practical situations. So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do. It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and I'm only addressing training centers. Bridgit Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete his job as well as any sighted pastor. On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Minh, >> >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> training centers are necessary. >> >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> school, employment and life in general. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> From: minh ha >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> experience. >> >> Minh >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 gmail.com > -- Kaiti ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original RJ, No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a center and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at Anywhere baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not Joe Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original RJ, They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the answer. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers are teaching both social and job skills. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Minh, > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > training centers are necessary. > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > school, employment and life in general. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > experience. > > Minh > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government training centers for the blind. There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and I could have benefited from some training. I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and resources to live independently. Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the skills, but this seems like a simple solution. Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and she has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training center due to her having a child. RJ ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ashley, The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes the NFB centers. Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you suggest or even offer day programs. The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency working with people with disabilities. Bridgit Message: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Tyler, No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one due to circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more home based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately using your own equipment and marking them if needed. Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about receiving services from her vr agency? They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who can help her at home. Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she lives in NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there are two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to find them. Ashley ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steve, I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to be further explored. Bridgit Message: 18 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 From: "Steve Jacobson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" RJ, It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case such as that of your friend. In general, though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might mean for bringing up a child in the long run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a confident independent traveler without putting in some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident traveler, for example, one is going to find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, or to be there for that child. Your friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take care of the child, and there could be other considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to take training seems very short-sighted to me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. Best regards, Steve Jacobson ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly when written by a blind person. Bridgit ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read a bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > RJ, > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get the > answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm ail.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 From: minh ha To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until until now. I went to public school all my life and had many opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well instead of waiting on others. Minh On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > person. > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > time. > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > process. > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > we came up with to work. > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > least. > > Just my thoughts. > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >> RJ, >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever center >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >> to >> >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of dormitories, >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to stay >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >> is >> >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >> may >> >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >> on >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >> the >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >> next >> >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >> I >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >> me >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >> friend >> >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >> the >> >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her on >> it. >> Thanks, >> Misty >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Steve Jacobson >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> RJ, >> >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >> such >> as that of your friend. In general, >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >> mean >> >> for bringing up a child in the long >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >> confident >> independent traveler without putting in >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >> traveler, for example, one is going to >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >> or >> to be there for that child. Your >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >> care >> of the child, and there could be other >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >> take >> >> training seems very short-sighted to >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>> ago. >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "minh ha" >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>going to do me any good without the experience. >> >>>Minh >> >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) is >>>that >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>> that >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>classmates. >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>> for >>>the >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>readily >>>> available . >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that will >>>help >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>> in >>>the >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>> us >>>to >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can we >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>> should >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>environments >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>> in >>>a >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>> Darian >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c om >>>> >> >> >>>-- >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef ur%40gm >>>ail.com >> >> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40 visi.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai l.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c om > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 From: "Loren Wakefield" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Peter, Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told you have excellent info on. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM Theweird1 at mediacombb.net Loren Wakefield To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Good evening everyone, He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as guide dog instructors. Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your questions. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hannah, Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which school this is although I plan to find out. Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many teams are fine. I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him or her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole dog user group a bad representation. I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged animal given the advice so far. I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new environment and stress. I hope it?s the right decision. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Hannah Chadwick Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Ashley and Josh, Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what you put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in to your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and address many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if you guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their guides and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so great. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their teams better than others. I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad teams. It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility to correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward the dog too. Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you want, not the one in CA. You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well behaved dogs. In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that cubicle. They do not make messes. They do not sniff excessively. And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met new people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to national convention. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi Julie. You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for everyone, and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has turned me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with your school! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity [kaybaycar at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit Hi all, I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how important this is after all. Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a dog at this college visit. On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > Great post, Ashley! > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > roam > around the room, when not being handled? > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > Blind! > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them! > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Mark, > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have > no > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there. > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > when > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > might > think again. > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. > You > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should > I > mention barks? > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > comes > responsibility. > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have > a > guide dog. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark J. Cadigan > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from > when giving advice. > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to > get > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > student. > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, > and > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > said, > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > someone > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on > the > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they > are > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > Mark > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lizzy" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > >> Hi All, >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school going >> not >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had my >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about >> if >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My reasons >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). I've >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing an >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. I >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >> greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Lizzy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae du.o nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co m > -- Julie McG National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae du.o nmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gma il.c om _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr. com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacom bb.net ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my perspective is that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, but you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea of going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of thinking drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd also put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school was in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth the investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not enroll. But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the Latino culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair share around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a vision teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a stickler. I love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed up with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw down my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor came over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and found the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other side of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep shade training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route to get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns could be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not everyone needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that you have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our sighted peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers could do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to take a break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and breathing a blindness independence philosophy. Joe ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in independently. I have cooked food before, and -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you. Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear National Association of Blind Students, As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? Do I need an advocate? Thanks, JJ ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 This is the research report I was talking about. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Edward Bell Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech University. Abstract Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of this study was to determine the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of the factors could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in annual earnings between men and women. Education and rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; where higher educational attainment is associated with better employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings was higher than those who did not use these tools. Keywords Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey This study sought to describe the current employment status of individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the literature that analyze the employment situation of people with disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive employment. The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased employment. Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an entire array of education and employment preparation institutions (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that disability status was the variable that presented the strongest negative correlation with employment. The author determined that disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, were less likely to be employed. A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of working were significantly less for respondents with severe disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with women being less likely to be employed. The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment specifically for the blind and VI population. Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. According to the literature, there are several factors that predict employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology training were associated with being employed. In relation to those factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation teaching. In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of employment. Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR services. The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most statistically significant predictors of competitive employment outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with visual impairments who were competitively employed through the state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at closure was for consumers. An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was not a significant factor impacting on earnings. >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of the work and transportation challenges. The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation services helped them to improve their performances, that the services made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that the services helped them to maintain their jobs. Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not only provide the training that leads to employment but since they spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s job. As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional and alternative approaches related to functional independence, individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a measure of functional independence than those trained in the conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of independent living. Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment rates and higher education levels than reading print as original medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing updated Braille skills represented an important factor that contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore the use of different reading media. They found out that the most significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education can impact greater growth and evolution. Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that among the reasons participants thought they were successful in overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the employment barriers. According to participants in this study, rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to the new generations. Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable through education or training) could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes of these individuals. Research Questions. The following research questions served as the guiding principles for this study. Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research findings on the subject? Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of employment and wages for this population? Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with higher rates of employment and wages for this population? Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with increased rates of employment and wages for this population? Method Participants The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). Instruments The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 variables, covering (a) general demographics including living situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future research. Procedures All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August 31, 2011. Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. Results Demographics Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample population that comprised this study. The respondents were representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table 1). Table 1 ? Demographics Age n Mean SD 1056 46.47 13.81 Range 18-87 Gender Frequency Percent Female 595 56.34 Male 461 43.66 Total 1056 100 Race/Ethnicity Frequency Percent African American, Black 90 8.52 Asian American, Asian 35 3.31 Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) 56 5.3 Native American, Alaska Native 8 0.76 Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander 4 0.38 Other 27 2.56 White or Caucasian 836 79.17 Total 1056 100 Vision Status Frequency Percent Blind 702 66.48 Visually Impaired 354 33.52 Total 1056 100 Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of this population are currently married (45%), while just under two percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). Table 2 ? Family and Community Living Situation Frequency percent Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am purchasing 541 51.23 Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property that I pay for 300 28.41 Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home 130 12.31 Live in dormitory or other institution 25 2.37 Share an apartment or rental property with room mates 60 5.68 Total 1056 100 Marital Status Frequency Percent Divorced 107 10.13 Married 475 44.98 Separated 22 2.08 Single 353 33.43 Widow or widower 18 1.7 With significant other person 81 7.67 Total 1056 99.99 Raising Children Frequency Percent No, I have no children 605 57.29 1 child 133 12.59 2 children 176 16.67 3 children 80 7.58 4 children 35 3.31 5 children 11 1.04 6 or more children 16 1.52 Total 1056 100 Population of Your Community Frequency Percent 1-25,000 People 245 23.2 25,001?75,000 People 240 22.73 75,001?150,000 People 121 11.46 150,001?250,000 People 104 9.85 250,001?500,000 People 89 8.43 500,001?1,000,000 People 121 11.46 1,000,001?2,000,001?larger 136 12.88 Total 1056 100.01 Vocational Rehabilitation and Education The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a residential or day program, but that they did not complete their training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received training in their home or school. While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n = 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249 individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they used another type of cane/mobility device. Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read Braille (41.95%). With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and percentage of individuals by educational level before and after rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to increase in their educational attainment. Table 3 -- Education Education Before VR Frequency Percent Education After VR Frequency Percent Less than High School 194 18.37 Less than High School 13 1.23 High School diploma/GED 349 33.05 High School diploma/GED 49 4.64 Some college, but no degree 148 14.02 Some college, but no degree 141 13.35 Associates Degree/AA 50 4.73 Associates Degree/AA 76 7.2 Vocational or Trade school 15 1.42 Vocational or Trade school 53 5.02 Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree 147 13.92 Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree 246 23.3 Master?s/Graduate Degree 72 6.82 Master?s/Graduate Degree 238 22.54 Law Degree 12 1.14 Law Degree 21 1.99 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 17 1.61 Doctorate degree/post graduate training 46 4.36 Not sure or Not applicable 52 4.92 Not sure or Not applicable 173 16.38 Pre Training 1056 100 Post Training 1056 100.01 Consumer and Civic Involvement Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which participants participated in other community and/or civic activities in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic groups. Employment One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary of $35,000. Table 4 ? Employment Status Before VR Frequency Percentage After VR Frequency Percentage Full-time employed 192 18.18 Full-Time 393 37.22 Part-time employed 86 8.14 Part-Time 142 13.45 Full-time college or vocational student 119 11.27 Full-Time College 72 6.82 Volunteer part- or full-time 33 3.13 Vol. F-P 45 4.26 Full-time Homemaker 26 2.46 Homemaker 21 1.99 Retired from previous employment 35 3.31 Retired 76 7.2 Unemployed 512 48.48 Unemployed 307 29.07 N/A, I never had a VR case before 53 5.02 Total 1056 99.99 * 1056 100.01 Information was also collected with respect to the availability of fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning available to them through their work. Factors that Impact on Employment The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR services and who should most likely be available for participation in the workforce. Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of participants. Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization earning $38,200. Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools used by individuals who are blind or VI. The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the employment status of participants based on the level of education that had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral degree earning $66,900 annually. When participants were asked whether they had completed training at any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a significant difference based on the method or type of training that was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either received training at home, or who received no formal skills training were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these individuals was examined, the data again showed significant differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; those who received their training at conventional centers earned an average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no formal training earned an average of $42,753. Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion that those who return for training multiple times have significantly less employment than those who only obtain training a single time (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. More specifically, this research was interested in several specific training variables and their impact on employment. The data demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other? device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that Braille has on employment and salary. Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By combining the most salient factors together, the results show even more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. Discussion The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to determine whether some of them could be identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on employment, the following were found to be the most salient: a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement planning. c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB members. f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this population, with those having graduate-level education being employed at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These results confirm those of Aditya (2004). h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were trained a single time. i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning only $36,000 annually. Implications The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners should know that: a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment. b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money that one can earn. c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good idea. e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes good sense. f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments. References Amato, S. (2009). Challenges and Solutions in Teaching Braille in an Online-Education Model. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(2), 78-80. American Foundation for the Blind (2012). Adults with vision loss. Retrieved from http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?FolderID=2&SectionID=15&TopicID=413&Docu mentID=4385 Aditya, R. N. (2004). A comparison of two orientation and mobility certification programs. Unpublished report prepared for the Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), Washington, DC. Baldwin, M. L., & Schumacher, E. J. (2002). A note on job mobility among workers with disabilities. Industrial Relations: A Journal of Economy & Society, 41(3), 430-441. Beck-Winchatz, B., & Riccobono, M. (2008). Advancing participation of blind students in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Advances in Space Research, 42(11), 1855-1858. doi:10.1016/j.asr.2007.05.080. Bennetts, C. (2003). Mentoring youth: trend and tradition. British Journal of Guidance & Counseling, 31(1), 63-76. doi:10.1080/0306988031000086170 Bell, E. C. (2010). Competitive employment for consumers who are legally blind: A 10-year retrospective study. Journal of Rehabilitation Research & Development, 47(2), 109-116. doi:10.1682/JRRD.2009.08.0120 Bell, E. C. (2012). Mentoring transition-age youth with blindness. The Journal of Special Education, 46(3), 170-179. Capella, M. (2001). Predicting earnings of vocational rehabilitation clients with visual impairments. Journal of Rehabilitation, 67(4), 43-47. Capella-McDonnall, M. (2005). Predictors of competitive employment for blind and visually impaired consumers of vocational rehabilitation services. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(5), 303-315. Cavenaugh, B. (1999). Relationship of agency structure and client characteristics to rehabilitation services and outcomes for consumers who are blind. Unpublished manuscript, Mississippi State University, Rehabilitation Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision, Starkville, MS. Cavenaugh, B. S., Giesen, J. M., & Pierce, S. J. (2000). Rehabilitation of visually impaired persons in separate and general agencies. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 94(3), 133-145. Cavenaugh, B., Giesen, J., & Steinman, B. (2006). Contextual effects of race or ethnicity on acceptance for vocational rehabilitation of consumers who are legally blind. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(7), 425-436. Crudden, A., & McBroom, L. (1999). Barriers to employment: A survey of employed persons who are visually impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment and Blindness, 93(6), 341-350. Darensbourg, B. (2013). Predictors of competitive employment of VR consumers with blindness or visual impairments. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation. 38(1), 29-34. doi: 10.3233/JVR-120618 Ferguson, R. (2001). We know who we are: A history of the blind in challenging educational and socially constructed policies: A study in policy archeology. San Francisco, CA: Caddo Gap. Fireison, C., & Moore, J. (1998). Employment Outcomes and Educational Backgrounds of Legally Blind Adults Employed in Sheltered Industrial Settings. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 92(11), 740-47. Golub, D. B. (2006). A model of successful work experience for employees who are visually impaired: The results of a study. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(12), 715-725. Hall, L. J., & McGregor, J. A. (2000). A follow-up study of the peer relationships of children with disabilities in an inclusive school. The Journal of Special Education, 34(3), 114-126. Harris, A. (2008). Messages to take away: Final reflections on residential rehabilitation. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080216.htm Hershenson, D. (1998). Systemic, ecological model for rehabilitation counseling. Rehabilitation Counseling Bulletin, 42(1), 40-50. Jeanmarie, K. & Strauser, D. R. (2000). Job readiness, self-efficacy and work personality: A comparison of trainee and instructor perceptions. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 14(1) 13-21. Leonard, R., D'Allura, T., & Horowitz, A. (1999). Factors associated with employment among persons who have a vision impairment: A follow-up of vocational placement referrals. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 12(1), 33-43. Marks, S., & Feeley, D. (1995). Transition in action: Michigan's experience. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(3), 272-275. Martz, E., & Xu, Y. (2008). Person-related and service-related factors predicting employment of individuals with disabilities. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 28(2), 97-104. Mayo, S., Allen, P. & Deden, J. (2008). A governing philosophy: Strategies for implementing a progressive approach in a center-based environment. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080209.htm Mettler, R. (2008). Cognitive learning theory and cane travel instructors: A new paradigm (2nd ed.). Lincoln, NE: Nebraska Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired. McDonnall, M., & Crudden, A. (2009). Factors affecting the successful employment of transition-age youths with visual impairments. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(6), 329-341. Miller, J. (2002). The Role of Orientation and Mobility Instructors and Rehabilitation Teachers in Enhancing Employment Opportunities for Persons Who Are Visually Impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 96(12), 852-55. Nagle, K. M. (2001). Transition to employment and community life for youths with visual impairments: Current status and future directions. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 95(12), 725-738. National Blindness Professional Certification Board (2012). Structured Discovery Cane Travel. Retrieved from http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/sdct.php Omvig, J. (2002). Freedom for the Blind: The secret is empowerment. Hot Springs, AR: Region VI Rehabilitation Continuing Education Program, University of Arkansas Press. Omvig, J. (2005). The characteristics of an NFB orientation center. Braille Monitor, 48(4). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05/bm0504/bm050403.htm Ozawa, M., & Yeo, Y. (2006). Work Status and Work Performance of People With Disabilities: An Empirical Study. Journal of Disability Policy Studies, 17(3), 180-190. doi:10.1177/10442073060170030601. Papadopoulos, K., & Koutsoklenis, A. (2009). Reading media used by higher-education students and graduates with visual impairments in Greece. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(11), 772-777. Phelps, A. (2005). NFB launches National Center for Mentoring Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: American Foundation for the Blind. U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from http://www.census.gov/ Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social Science, 70(4-A), 1181. Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development relationships and individuals with disabilities. American Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) Exam http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php Director, Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall PO Box 3158 Ruston LA 71272 Office: 318.257.4554 Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) Skype: edwardbell2010 ebell at latech.edu www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness ******************** "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould _______________________________________________ rehab mailing list rehab at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for rehab: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40 gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi JJ, I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the class start? Arielle On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > Do I need an advocate? > Thanks, > JJ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 From: Cindy Bennett To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing it, but I have also gotten some. Cindy On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can read > a > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> RJ, >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > the >> answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> > Minh, >> > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as an >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> > skills >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> > people, >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like Braille, >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> > training centers are necessary. >> > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and polite, >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >> > to >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >> > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you in >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage of >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >> > school, employment and life in general. >> > >> > Bridgit >> > Message: 3 >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> > From: minh ha >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > Message-ID: >> > >> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> > how >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are these >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >> > my >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> > and >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> > there >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence skills >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >> > experience. >> > >> > Minh >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. > net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most and tend to get it least. I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in the town where the center is located but don't participate in school or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know exactly how. Arielle On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > it, but I have also gotten some. > > Cindy > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >> read >> a >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> RJ, >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get >> the >>> answer. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>> centers >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> > Minh, >>> > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >>> > an >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>> > skills >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>> > people, >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>> > Braille, >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> > training centers are necessary. >>> > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>> > polite, >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >>> > to >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >>> > in >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >>> > of >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> > school, employment and life in general. >>> > >>> > Bridgit >>> > Message: 3 >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> > From: minh ha >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> > Message-ID: >>> > >>> > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>> > how >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>> > these >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >>> > my >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >>> > and >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >>> > there >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>> > skills >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> > experience. >>> > >>> > Minh >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > nabs-l mailing list >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink. >> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 From: johnnie Jean duran To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Arielle: Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to them, it might change their mind. Thank you so much Arielle! JJ On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi JJ, > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > class start? > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >> Do I need an advocate? >> Thanks, >> JJ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai l.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 From: Carly Mihalakis To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list , National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi, jJ, What the hell is a para? for today, Car 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >Arielle: >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >them, it might change their mind. >Thank you so much Arielle! >JJ > >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi JJ, > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > class start? > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > >> Do I need an advocate? > >> Thanks, > >> JJ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co m > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai l.com > > > > >-- >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >8th Grade Student >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >the NFB. >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >Instagram: jj_duran13 >Skype: jj.duran13 >Kik: jjd_13 > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. net ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org ------------------------------ End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17 ************************************** _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 12 22:52:40 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:52:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers and volunteers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <012077CC-D8E0-4FE2-8017-8E786C3D5647@samobile.net> It would be very difficult to establish volunteer programs like the ones you're thinking of. The rehabilitation field is filled with ego. Many in the rehabilitation Field, especially dealing with rehab teaching and orientation and mobility, feel that you need special certifications in each in order to teach the basic skills. So to step in and offer your uncertified self as a volunteer teacher would be a kind of stepping on the toes. More than likely, they will tell you that it's not safe for whatever reason. Mind you, I'm talking about traditional rehabilitation systems which make up the majority of the country. Your better bet is to create a sort of program that is completely outside of the rehabilitation system. I have operated similar programs through my local chapter of the Federation and it works quite well. If nothing else, our volunteer services provided extra training on top of whatever the person was getting from rehabilitation. It also filled gaps for those who, for whatever reason, couldn't get rehabilitation teaching. That also includes computers and braille & mobility. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > > Arielle, > > Is there any way some initiative could be developed for such > volunteer-based programs? It seems like a huge undertaking, and I don't > even know if something like this can be done on a national level. Just > thinking out loud, so to speak, smile. > > Bridgit > Message: 21 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi all, > > I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > and tend to get it least. > I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > exactly how. > > Arielle > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 23:01:25 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:01:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <002e01cedff6$22c55670$68500350$@gmail.com> <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <4DF4DBA07EA74CA296F25E6E0789E8AC@OwnerPC> RJ, I'm in the minority here. But I have the same questions. I have to wonder if the students at the nfb centers really got all the skills and confidence they need to get out and find a job. I, too, have met some blind people who went to centers who are not employed. I have not met anyone sitting at home with family. But they do sit around collecting welfare checks in order to live a basic life. Its very very sad. RJ, it just goes to show that no matter what training you get, it does not gaurantee success. Some people simply don't have the gusto or advocacy skills to get jobs. Its harder to get a job as a blind person. You have to advocate and educate the employers. I remember calling up a nonprofit, national crime prevention council, NCPC, to get a communications internship. I was responding to an ad on my school's career database. I had to explain who I was and see if the job was too visual to do. It turns out that I could not do a main part of the job as it involved reading newspapers to search for certain stories. So, long story short, I explained I could not read printed newspapers but I could do other tasks and said what it was. I had to sell my skills in order not to be written off. So, they made another internship for me and I still did a few communications tasks like press releases. But, I had to do some advocacy and education; I had to explain jaws too and they were accomodating as I installed jaws there. So I got that unpaid internship. It takes a lot to get a job. Just because we have a large unemployment rate, does not mean centers are bad. Oh, and I do not believe the statistic anyway; I think its an inflated lie. Everyone I know in nfb is employed except for a few people in other chapters. I also think that 70 percent stat is way outdated and it includes people with multiple disabilities. So, to conclude, no center is perfect but I'd have to say it does a lot to help you be an independent person in life. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but the proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone says they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers who sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? Apparently ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > If you attend the national convention, the training centers are highly > toubted all week long. Though I am careful of how much of the nfb coolaide > I drink, and catch phrases I swallow, I've just got to give a big thumbs up > to our training centers. I am one of those individuals who have not had the > opportunity to attend one myself as of yet, but I'll just give a big thank > you to all of the staff who have done such a good job with the training, and > a congradulations to all of the fine folks who have been deamed skilled > enough to have graduated. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit > Pollpeter > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:11 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > > They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good > government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is > taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given > situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools > and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are > better equipped to deal with life. > > Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who > didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who > allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many > of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget > that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or > it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in > life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you > are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people > back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later > in life would flounder and find no direction. > > Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success, but > neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have. > It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training > centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools > like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find > confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you > have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years > of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers > have helped many make this transition. > > It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach > skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations. > College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you > theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills > to practical situations. > > So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do. > It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and > successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the > exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and > training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and > I'm only addressing training centers. > > Bridgit > > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real > world > Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know > what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if > he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete > his job as well as any sighted pastor. > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > >> Minh, > >> > >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >> > >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >> > >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >> training centers are necessary. > >> > >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >> > >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >> > >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > >> school, employment and life in general. > >> > >> Bridgit > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >> From: minh ha > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> Message-ID: > >> > >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >> > >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > >> experience. > >> > >> Minh > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 > gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > RJ, > No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. > But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. > You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. > So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a > center > and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at > Anywhere > baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not > Joe > Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > RJ, > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > the > answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. > No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government > training centers for the blind. > > There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various > reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few > receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it > really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined > ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those > mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from > first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my > blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I > was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once > recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and > I could have benefited from some training. > > I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot > for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills > beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. > > Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for > most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a > lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a > lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and > resources to live independently. > > Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training > if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone > would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to > work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped > for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully > presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people > who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, > though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the > skills, but this seems like a simple solution. > > Bridgit > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and > she > has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training > center > due to her having a child. RJ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Ashley, > > The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a > major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes > the NFB centers. > > Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend > as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most > are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough > to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow > people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other > institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you > suggest or even offer day programs. > > The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government > doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or > the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will > not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency > working with people with disabilities. > > Bridgit > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Tyler, > No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one > due to > circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. > It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more > home > based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately > > using your own equipment and marking them if needed. > > Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about > receiving > services from her vr agency? > They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who > can > help her at home. > Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she > lives in > NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there > are > two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. > Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to > find > them. > > Ashley > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Steve, > > I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively > care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids > just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt > I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most > parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, > but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we > require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, > hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who > are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to > achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only > enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. > > I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can > be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this > situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the > support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to > be further explored. > > Bridgit > Message: 18 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 > From: "Steve Jacobson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > RJ, > > It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > such as that of your friend. In general, > though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might > mean for bringing up a child in the long > run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > confident independent traveler without putting in > some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident > traveler, for example, one is going to > find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, > or to be there for that child. Your > friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > care of the child, and there could be other > considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to > take training seems very short-sighted to > me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack > thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it > doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly > when written by a blind person. > > Bridgit > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > read a > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > RJ, > > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > the > > answer. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RJ Sandefur > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > Minh, > > > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > > training centers are necessary. > > > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing to > > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > > > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > > > Bridgit > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > > From: minh ha > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of my > > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > > experience. > > > > > > Minh > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until > until now. I went to public school all my life and had many > opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held > leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't > think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give > their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them > for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, > which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 > is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind > giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't > otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at > all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more > than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as > cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can > participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that > school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to > ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an > entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able > to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful > support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own > potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also > think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well > instead of waiting on others. > > Minh > > On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > > person. > > > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > > time. > > > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > > process. > > > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > > we came up with to work. > > > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > > least. > > > > Just my thoughts. > > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > >> RJ, > >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever > center > >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for > her > >> to > >> > >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory > >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of > dormitories, > >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to > stay > >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend > may > >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while > she > >> is > >> > >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the > center > >> may > >> > >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with > her > >> on > >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. > >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, > but > >> the > >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help > me > >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity > to > >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to > attend > >> next > >> > >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to > me > >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out > so > >> I > >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to > allow > >> me > >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your > >> friend > >> > >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any > of > >> the > >> > >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with > her on > >> it. > >> Thanks, > >> Misty > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Steve Jacobson > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> RJ, > >> > >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > >> such > >> as that of your friend. In general, > >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well > might > >> mean > >> > >> for bringing up a child in the long > >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > >> confident > >> independent traveler without putting in > >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a > confident > >> traveler, for example, one is going to > >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to > be, > >> or > >> to be there for that child. Your > >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > >> care > >> of the child, and there could be other > >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child > to > >> take > >> > >> training seems very short-sighted to > >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Steve Jacobson > >> > >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> > >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four > years > >>> ago. > >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to > a > >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "minh ha" > >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM > >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired > over > >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, > >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to > >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to > teach > >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain > >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I > can > >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > >>>going to do me any good without the experience. > >> > >>>Minh > >> > >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. > >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) > is > >>>that > >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in > skills > >>>> that > >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their > >>>classmates. > >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are > adapted > >>>> for > >>>the > >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not > always > >>>readily > >>>> available . > >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that > will > >>>help > >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and > succeed > >>>> in > >>>the > >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that > enable > >>>> us > >>>to > >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only > can we > >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this > >>>> should > >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. > >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning > >>>environments > >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that > generally > >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real > world > >>>> in > >>>a > >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave > you > >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. > >>>> Darian > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c > om > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>-- > >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the > dusty > >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > >> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>nabs-l: > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef > ur%40gm > >>>ail.com > >> > >> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>nabs-l: > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40 > visi.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai > l.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 > gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c > om > > > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 > From: "Loren Wakefield" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Peter, > > Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told > you have excellent info on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Donahue > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM > > Theweird1 at mediacombb.net > > Loren Wakefield > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Good evening everyone, > > He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael > California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's > national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees > and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One > area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind > guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. > We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged > blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog > program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as > guide dog instructors. > > Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide > Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB > believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our > guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and > custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my > knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog > Consumer's Bill of Rights. > If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted > their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search > for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that > document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would > implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your > questions. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > Hannah, > Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. > He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which > school this is although I plan to find out. > > Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many > teams > are fine. > I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him > or > her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. > But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole > dog user group a bad representation. > > I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged > animal > given the advice so far. > I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her > decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new > environment > and stress. I hope it?s the right decision. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Hannah Chadwick > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Ashley and Josh, > Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great > things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what > you > put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in > to > your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and > address > many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if > you > guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has > never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't > judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us > free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I > strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their > guides > and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so > great. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. > AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their > teams > better than others. > I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad > teams. > It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility > to > correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward > the > dog too. > > Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you > want, > not the one in CA. > You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. > Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well > behaved dogs. > In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that > cubicle. > > They do not make messes. > They do not sniff excessively. > And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met > new > people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. > > > Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to > national convention. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi Julie. > You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. > I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! > The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! > All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. > This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for > everyone, > and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has > turned > me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. > Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with > your > school! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity > [kaybaycar at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi all, > > I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is > worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's > behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us > means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make > judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on > college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt > well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about > how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the > challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized > we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. > Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. > > As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but > most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing > people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide > us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we > are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it > to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of > dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how > important this is after all. > > Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate > being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my > dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The > reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a > little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if > they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog > no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the > bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other > part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. > But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and > intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to > others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure > you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a > dog at this college visit. > > On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Great post, Ashley! > > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > > roam > > around the room, when not being handled? > > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in > dog, > > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > > Blind! > > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, > because > > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got > them! > > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Mark, > > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would > have > > no > > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people > or > > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay > there. > > > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > > when > > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > > might > > think again. > > > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them > in > > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes > responsibility. > > You > > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving > like a > > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and > should > > I > > mention barks? > > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. > But to > > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional > setting > > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > > comes > > responsibility. > > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to > have > > a > > guide dog. > > > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark J. Cadigan > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of > Guide > > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw > from > > when giving advice. > > > > > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. > I > > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact > I > > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people > say > > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would > definitely do > > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but > to > > get > > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > > student. > > > > > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there > problem > > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide > dog, > > and > > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > > said, > > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you > should > > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > > someone > > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no > clue > > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog > on > > the > > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and > not > > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but > they > > are > > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "lizzy" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > > >> Hi All, > >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but > now I > >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school > going > >> not > >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it > is at > >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had > my > >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided > about > >> if > >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My > reasons > >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a > lot > >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). > I've > >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty > simple (a > >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for > this or > >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and > she is > >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't > make > >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an > >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a > current > >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs > or > >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. > I > >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think > I'll > >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the > >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > >> greatly appreciated. > >> Thanks, > >> Lizzy > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae > du.o > nmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co > m > > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae > du.o > nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gma > il.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacom > bb.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my > perspective is > that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they > could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone > could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, > but > you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea > of > going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a > Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of > thinking > drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd > also > put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school > was > in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth > the > investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not > enroll. > But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the > Latino > culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair > share > around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a > vision > teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a > stickler. I > love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school > years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed > up > with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw > down > my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor > came > over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and > found > the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other > side > of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep > shade > training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as > those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route > to > get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns > could > be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set > specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not > everyone > needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that > you > have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and > deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our > sighted > peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers > could > do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to > take a > break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the > challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and > breathing a blindness independence philosophy. > > Joe > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 > From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food > before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you. > > Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > > > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran > wrote: > > > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > > > -- > > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > > 8th Grade Student > > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > > the NFB. > > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > > Instagram: jj_duran13 > > Skype: jj.duran13 > > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > Do I need an advocate? > Thanks, > JJ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult > Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > This is the research report I was talking about. > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Edward Bell > Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 > Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and > Employment Survey:Final Results > To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC > mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, > pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list > > Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment > Survey:Final Results > > By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino > > > Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional > Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech > University. > > > > Abstract > Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United > States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of > this study was to determine the current employment status of these > individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The > study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, > and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to > determine whether some of the factors could be identified as > contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the > employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually > impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings > show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in > annual earnings between men and women. Education and > rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; > where higher educational attainment is associated with better > employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained > under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be > employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, > for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white > cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings > was higher than those who did not use these tools. > > > > Keywords > Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training > centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery > > > > Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey > This study sought to describe the current employment status of > individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and > to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it > explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status > for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of > the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the > literature that analyze the employment situation of people with > disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related > to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. > > Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports > The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United > States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the > 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults > age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as > individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when > wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that > they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau > of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million > individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision > loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working > age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the > civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the > labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported > month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though > they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor > force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population > ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision > loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, > 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that > by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the > vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive > employment. > > The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the > current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more > importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic > factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased > employment. > > Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System > In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with > significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social > services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them > in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal > VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial > support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and > Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an > entire array of education and employment preparation institutions > (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those > who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems > worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many > others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with > continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. > > The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes > comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA > VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with > employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that > disability status was the variable that presented the strongest > negative correlation with employment. The author determined that > disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, > particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females > with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, > were less likely to be employed. > > A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of > individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no > disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the > authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability > groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more > than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that > the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of > disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% > were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the > severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% > respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that > disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the > likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of > working were significantly less for respondents with severe > disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly > earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe > disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. > According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of > obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability > status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more > likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. > > Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related > predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who > received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a > U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received > VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services > (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those > individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate > (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were > individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, > gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with > women being less likely to be employed. > > The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment > specifically for the blind and VI population. > > Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System > Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and > the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients > with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for > Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of > consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% > of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive > employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in > sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive > employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, > clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that > out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the > legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of > noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. > > According to the literature, there are several factors that predict > employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, > training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent > across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) > found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an > integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated > with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a > primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, > and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall > satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from > family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology > training were associated with being employed. In relation to those > factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they > identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation > and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation > teaching. > > In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a > certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having > worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to > rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between > the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors > of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) > concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated > with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work > experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive > technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of > employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, > and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and > the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a > secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of > employment. > > Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor > had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those > individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher > level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by > Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was > a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment > outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision > loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other > hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of > the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR > services. > > The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed > that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after > receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were > legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African > American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income > as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special > education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, > Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most > statistically significant predictors of competitive employment > outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were > weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), > gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. > > Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors > mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with > visual impairments who were competitively employed through the > state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) > concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some > of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, > age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual > impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. > Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of > education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in > earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater > amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at > closure was for consumers. > > An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on > employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI > was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served > these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the > mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly > higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, > Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a > relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers > who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more > chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), > however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was > not a significant factor impacting on earnings. > > >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that > contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the > perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to > the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable > with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by > eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held > to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study > found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. > He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology > skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. > Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their > competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of > the work and transportation challenges. > > The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those > factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and > McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the > general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to > print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. > Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to > employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more > issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those > who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the > skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. > When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor > did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help > in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; > provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of > counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only > 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to > obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation > services helped them to improve their performances, that the services > made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that > the services helped them to maintain their jobs. > > Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the > competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. > Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 > data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was > significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based > on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have > shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In > addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the > factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, > education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned > $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a > $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread > between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings > had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the > other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the > other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by > 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and > Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those > with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of > being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did > individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American > veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where > they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. > > White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and > having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor > appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions > (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, > having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work > experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, > Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors > and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not > only provide the training that leads to employment but since they > spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a > community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s > vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s > job. > > As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main > philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: > the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured > Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service > offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn > independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent > approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving > skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National > Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on > experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the > instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the > instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an > orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends > upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the > information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the > Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to > guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly > relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages > the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National > Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). > > The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the > different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind > or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his > study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of > the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the > philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional > and alternative approaches related to functional independence, > individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a > measure of functional independence than those trained in the > conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of > training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by > examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are > employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the > shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately > utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size > was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training > approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences > were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between > those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were > trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya > (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white > cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of > independent living. > > Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles > (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that > predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment > rates and higher education levels than reading print as original > medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized > Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower > unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original > reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille > as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for > employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used > Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at > a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print > did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read > Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing > updated Braille skills represented an important factor that > contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. > > Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher > education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore > the use of different reading media. They found out that the most > significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual > status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. > Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the > increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with > training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established > tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the > frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that > efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in > Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age > at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille > courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. > > Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, > and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some > training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement > for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) > while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training > elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly > reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, > 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what > constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. > > Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated > the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective > outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & > Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer > interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation > process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as > well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as > effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision > making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). > Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, > social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support > interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, > 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, > self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a > consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation > process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). > However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of > families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that > put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that > promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What > research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve > as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education > can impact greater growth and evolution. > > Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that > among the reasons participants thought they were successful in > overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing > networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a > relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to > others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the > employment barriers. According to participants in this study, > rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring > opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. > The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could > assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. > > Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a > consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient > testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their > involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. > Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives > of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent > and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as > positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with > proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, > successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to > the new generations. > > Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture > a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally > blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study > sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, > and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to > determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable > through education or training) could be identified as contributing to > the employment outcomes of these individuals. > > Research Questions. The following research questions served as the > guiding principles for this study. > > Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a > national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research > findings on the subject? > Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial > identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of > employment and wages for this population? > Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation > with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with > higher rates of employment and wages for this population? > Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, > adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with > increased rates of employment and wages for this population? > > Method > Participants > The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI > adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United > States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an > average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals > were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), > who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 > Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native > Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific > Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who > reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). > > Instruments > The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult > Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 > variables, covering (a) general demographics including living > situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and > consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) > employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future > research. > > Procedures > All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent > document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of > requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a > notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study > was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional > Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for > participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting > the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of > the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a > research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten > minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August > 31, 2011. > > Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of > the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment > situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the > United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach > individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. > The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all > available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the > blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National > Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically > to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office > with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The > invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve > the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for > the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The > request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and > adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 > requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers > that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 > print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 > annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the > participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were > distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America > Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters > and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social > media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. > > Results > Demographics > Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were > captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample > population that comprised this study. The respondents were > representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being > from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from > Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind > (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table > 1). > > Table 1 ? Demographics > > Age > > > > n > Mean > SD > > 1056 > 46.47 > 13.81 > > > Range > 18-87 > > > > > > Gender > Frequency > Percent > > Female > 595 > 56.34 > > Male > 461 > 43.66 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Race/Ethnicity > Frequency > Percent > > African American, Black > 90 > 8.52 > > Asian American, Asian > 35 > 3.31 > > Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) > 56 > 5.3 > > Native American, Alaska Native > 8 > 0.76 > > Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander > 4 > 0.38 > > Other > 27 > 2.56 > > White or Caucasian > 836 > 79.17 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > > > Vision Status > Frequency > Percent > > Blind > 702 > 66.48 > > Visually Impaired > 354 > 33.52 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital > status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority > of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that > they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported > living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of > this population are currently married (45%), while just under two > percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample > (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next > largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report > having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) > report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the > community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in > small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second > largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between > 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided > in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder > fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). > > Table 2 ? Family and Community > > > Living Situation Frequency > percent > > Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am > purchasing > 541 > 51.23 > > Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property > that I pay for > 300 > 28.41 > > Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home > 130 > 12.31 > > Live in dormitory or other institution > 25 > 2.37 > > Share an apartment or rental property with room mates > 60 > 5.68 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Marital Status > Frequency > Percent > > Divorced > 107 > 10.13 > > Married > 475 > 44.98 > > Separated > 22 > 2.08 > > Single > 353 > 33.43 > > Widow or widower > 18 > 1.7 > > With significant other person > 81 > 7.67 > > Total > 1056 > 99.99 > > > > > > Raising Children > Frequency > Percent > > No, I have no children > 605 > 57.29 > > 1 child > 133 > 12.59 > > 2 children > 176 > 16.67 > > 3 children > 80 > 7.58 > > 4 children > 35 > 3.31 > > 5 children > 11 > 1.04 > > 6 or more children > 16 > 1.52 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Population of Your Community > Frequency > Percent > > 1-25,000 People > 245 > 23.2 > > 25,001?75,000 People > 240 > 22.73 > > 75,001?150,000 People > 121 > 11.46 > > 150,001?250,000 People > 104 > 9.85 > > 250,001?500,000 People > 89 > 8.43 > > 500,001?1,000,000 People > 121 > 11.46 > > 1,000,001?2,000,001?larger > 136 > 12.88 > > Total > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Vocational Rehabilitation and Education > The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to > VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss > training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with > their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that > they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know > (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported > having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 > individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. > When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to > blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or > daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have > never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual > impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed > (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. > Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a > residential or day program, but that they did not complete their > training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they > attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received > training in their home or school. > > While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, > this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive > some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their > training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals > who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were > at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when > they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use > of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, > ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught > using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n = > 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between > my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked > whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that > they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 > individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and > 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When > asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for > current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is > lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A > folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249 > individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in > height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower > than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they > used another type of cane/mobility device. > > Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of > Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille > at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the > entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), > while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). > When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read > Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently > read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read > Braille (41.95%). > > With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about > their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation > training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. > Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and > percentage of individuals by educational level before and after > rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of > individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from > pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they > attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in > education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend > rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 > individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help > them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 > individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals > (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was > either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to > increase in their educational attainment. > > Table 3 -- Education > > > Education > Before VR Frequency > Percent > Education > After VR > Frequency > Percent > > Less than High School > 194 > 18.37 > Less than High School > 13 > 1.23 > > High School diploma/GED > 349 > 33.05 > High School diploma/GED > 49 > 4.64 > > Some college, but no degree > 148 > 14.02 > Some college, but no degree > 141 > 13.35 > > Associates Degree/AA > 50 > 4.73 > Associates Degree/AA > 76 > 7.2 > > Vocational or Trade school > 15 > 1.42 > Vocational or Trade school > 53 > 5.02 > > Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree > 147 > 13.92 > Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree > 246 > 23.3 > > Master?s/Graduate Degree > 72 > 6.82 > Master?s/Graduate Degree > 238 > 22.54 > > Law Degree > 12 > 1.14 > Law Degree > 21 > 1.99 > > Doctorate degree/post graduate training > 17 > 1.61 > Doctorate degree/post graduate training > 46 > 4.36 > > Not sure or > Not applicable > 52 > 4.92 > Not sure or > Not applicable > 173 > 16.38 > > Pre Training > 1056 > 100 > Post Training > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Consumer and Civic Involvement > Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer > organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who > affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with > both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the > NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer > organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of > consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) > reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 > individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no > leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local > or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national > leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold > several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. > > Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which > participants participated in other community and/or civic activities > in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least > one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number > of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) > stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or > place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding > leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four > individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals > (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals > (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and > 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic > groups. > > Employment > One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the > employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and > specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. > As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed > prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) > were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR > services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed > full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained > unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of > individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who > were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this > survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For > these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = > $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary > of $35,000. > > Table 4 ? Employment Status > > > Before VR Frequency > Percentage > After VR > Frequency > Percentage > > Full-time employed > 192 > 18.18 > Full-Time > 393 > 37.22 > > Part-time employed > 86 > 8.14 > Part-Time > 142 > 13.45 > > Full-time college or vocational student > 119 > 11.27 > Full-Time College > 72 > 6.82 > > Volunteer part- or full-time > 33 > 3.13 > Vol. F-P > 45 > 4.26 > > Full-time Homemaker > 26 > 2.46 > Homemaker > 21 > 1.99 > > Retired from previous employment > 35 > 3.31 > Retired > 76 > 7.2 > > Unemployed > 512 > 48.48 > Unemployed > 307 > 29.07 > > N/A, I never had a VR case before > 53 > 5.02 > > > > > Total > 1056 > 99.99 > * > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Information was also collected with respect to the availability of > fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants > reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical > insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals > (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 > individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning > available to them through their work. > > Factors that Impact on Employment > The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general > demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment > characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are > blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, > it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and > educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors > that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The > demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are > representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR > data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of > the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not > know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) > of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that > their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample > whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of > individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis > will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR > services and who should most likely be available for participation in > the workforce. > > Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic > classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to > determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The > data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the > consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was > there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of > participants. > > Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind > or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those > with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a > greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant > difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, > RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a > rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually > impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does > exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were > non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind > individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning > $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant > differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were > employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant > difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, > p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females > earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported > racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences > were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. > > Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI > help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data > demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = > 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in > the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the > NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no > participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed > at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on > annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members > earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning > $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization > earning $38,200. > > Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that > are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to > evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., > education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) > demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading > factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact > in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, > this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills > training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. > Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white > cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools > used by individuals who are blind or VI. > > The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the > employment status of participants based on the level of education that > had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further > analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or > who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those > who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; > those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; > and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of > 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the > annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = > .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high > school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; > those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a > master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral > degree earning $66,900 annually. > > When participants were asked whether they had completed training at > any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split > almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed > training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving > training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment > outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a > more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a > significant difference based on the method or type of training that > was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data > demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a > Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of > 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional > training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either > received training at home, or who received no formal skills training > were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these > individuals was examined, the data again showed significant > differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend > continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a > Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; > those who received their training at conventional centers earned an > average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no > formal training earned an average of $42,753. > > Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., > the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the > literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for > example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on > employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based > training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one > concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion > that those who return for training multiple times have significantly > less employment than those who only obtain training a single time > (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained > training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving > training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same > trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = > .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and > those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. > > More specifically, this research was interested in several specific > training variables and their impact on employment. The data > demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long > white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report > currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were > evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that > individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed > at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = > 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of > 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. > The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income > of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users > earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average > of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were > next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to > employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference > (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane > that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, > those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height > being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other? > device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, > the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings > (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users > earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning > $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. > > The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of > Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. > Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at > some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% > reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers > employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? > The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, > 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed > at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a > rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more > significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille > readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning > an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in > annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that > Braille has on employment and salary. > > Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant > impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By > combining the most salient factors together, the results show even > more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who > complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, > continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane > for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of > 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those > individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no > formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer > organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed > at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. > > Discussion > The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in > the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study > was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and > to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. > In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, > education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this > population in order to determine whether some of them could be > identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. > > The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since > this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of > rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of > 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of > demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on > employment, the following were found to be the most salient: > > a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI > are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly > similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for > this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing > research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that > there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. > b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have > access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to > dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement > planning. > c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly > equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on > average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are > consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, > 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). > d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of > employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, > such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. > e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were > employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who > affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning > $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization > tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB > members. > f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational > attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this > population, with those having graduate-level education being employed > at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, > and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. > g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively > related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured > Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning > $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based > programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These > results confirm those of Aditya (2004). > h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), > was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who > receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in > comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, > and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were > trained a single time. > i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily > mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a > significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. > j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed > at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille > readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. > k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete > training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the > NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a > rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. > l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not > trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use > a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning > only $36,000 annually. > > > Implications > The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains > extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may > help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint > and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of > competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. > Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to > have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers > and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the > benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of > these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to > make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of > the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners > should know that: > > a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment > need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment. > b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive > difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money > that one can earn. > c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to > be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. > d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good > idea. > e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes > good sense. > f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than > getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments. > > > References > Amato, S. (2009). Challenges and Solutions in Teaching Braille in an > Online-Education Model. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, > 103(2), 78-80. > > American Foundation for the Blind (2012). Adults with vision loss. > Retrieved from > http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?FolderID=2&SectionID=15&TopicID=413&Docu > mentID=4385 > > Aditya, R. N. (2004). A comparison of two orientation and mobility > certification programs. Unpublished report prepared for the > Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), Washington, DC. > > Baldwin, M. L., & Schumacher, E. J. (2002). A note on job mobility > among workers with disabilities. Industrial Relations: A Journal of > Economy & Society, 41(3), 430-441. > > Beck-Winchatz, B., & Riccobono, M. (2008). Advancing participation of > blind students in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Advances > in Space Research, 42(11), 1855-1858. doi:10.1016/j.asr.2007.05.080. > > Bennetts, C. (2003). Mentoring youth: trend and tradition. British > Journal of Guidance & Counseling, 31(1), 63-76. > doi:10.1080/0306988031000086170 > > Bell, E. C. (2010). Competitive employment for consumers who are > legally blind: A 10-year retrospective study. Journal of > Rehabilitation Research & Development, 47(2), 109-116. > doi:10.1682/JRRD.2009.08.0120 > > Bell, E. C. (2012). Mentoring transition-age youth with blindness. The > Journal of Special Education, 46(3), 170-179. > > Capella, M. (2001). Predicting earnings of vocational rehabilitation > clients with visual impairments. Journal of Rehabilitation, 67(4), > 43-47. > > Capella-McDonnall, M. (2005). Predictors of competitive employment for > blind and visually impaired consumers of vocational rehabilitation > services. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(5), 303-315. > > Cavenaugh, B. (1999). Relationship of agency structure and client > characteristics to rehabilitation services and outcomes for consumers > who are blind. Unpublished manuscript, Mississippi State University, > Rehabilitation Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low > Vision, Starkville, MS. > > Cavenaugh, B. S., Giesen, J. M., & Pierce, S. J. (2000). > Rehabilitation of visually impaired persons in separate and general > agencies. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 94(3), 133-145. > > Cavenaugh, B., Giesen, J., & Steinman, B. (2006). Contextual effects > of race or ethnicity on acceptance for vocational rehabilitation of > consumers who are legally blind. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 100(7), 425-436. > > Crudden, A., & McBroom, L. (1999). Barriers to employment: A survey of > employed persons who are visually impaired. Journal of Visual > Impairment and Blindness, 93(6), 341-350. > > Darensbourg, B. (2013). Predictors of competitive employment of VR > consumers with blindness or visual impairments. Journal of Vocational > Rehabilitation. 38(1), 29-34. doi: 10.3233/JVR-120618 > > Ferguson, R. (2001). We know who we are: A history of the blind in > challenging educational and socially constructed policies: A study in > policy archeology. San Francisco, CA: Caddo Gap. > > Fireison, C., & Moore, J. (1998). Employment Outcomes and Educational > Backgrounds of Legally Blind Adults Employed in Sheltered Industrial > Settings. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 92(11), 740-47. > > Golub, D. B. (2006). A model of successful work experience for > employees who are visually impaired: The results of a study. Journal > of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(12), 715-725. > > Hall, L. J., & McGregor, J. A. (2000). A follow-up study of the peer > relationships of children with disabilities in an inclusive school. > The Journal of Special Education, 34(3), 114-126. > > Harris, A. (2008). Messages to take away: Final reflections on > residential rehabilitation. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080216.htm > > Hershenson, D. (1998). Systemic, ecological model for rehabilitation > counseling. Rehabilitation Counseling Bulletin, 42(1), 40-50. > > Jeanmarie, K. & Strauser, D. R. (2000). Job readiness, self-efficacy > and work personality: A comparison of trainee and instructor > perceptions. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 14(1) 13-21. > > Leonard, R., D'Allura, T., & Horowitz, A. (1999). Factors associated > with employment among persons who have a vision impairment: A > follow-up of vocational placement referrals. Journal of Vocational > Rehabilitation, 12(1), 33-43. > > Marks, S., & Feeley, D. (1995). Transition in action: Michigan's > experience. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(3), 272-275. > > Martz, E., & Xu, Y. (2008). Person-related and service-related factors > predicting employment of individuals with disabilities. Journal of > Vocational Rehabilitation, 28(2), 97-104. > > Mayo, S., Allen, P. & Deden, J. (2008). A governing philosophy: > Strategies for implementing a progressive approach in a center-based > environment. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080209.htm > > Mettler, R. (2008). Cognitive learning theory and cane travel > instructors: A new paradigm (2nd ed.). Lincoln, NE: Nebraska > Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > > McDonnall, M., & Crudden, A. (2009). Factors affecting the successful > employment of transition-age youths with visual impairments. Journal > of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(6), 329-341. > > Miller, J. (2002). The Role of Orientation and Mobility Instructors > and Rehabilitation Teachers in Enhancing Employment Opportunities for > Persons Who Are Visually Impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 96(12), 852-55. > > Nagle, K. M. (2001). Transition to employment and community life for > youths with visual impairments: Current status and future directions. > Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 95(12), 725-738. > > National Blindness Professional Certification Board (2012). Structured > Discovery Cane Travel. Retrieved from > http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/sdct.php > > Omvig, J. (2002). Freedom for the Blind: The secret is empowerment. > Hot Springs, AR: Region VI Rehabilitation Continuing Education > Program, University of Arkansas Press. > > Omvig, J. (2005). The characteristics of an NFB orientation center. > Braille Monitor, 48(4). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05/bm0504/bm050403.htm > > Ozawa, M., & Yeo, Y. (2006). Work Status and Work Performance of > People With Disabilities: An Empirical Study. Journal of Disability > Policy Studies, 17(3), 180-190. doi:10.1177/10442073060170030601. > > Papadopoulos, K., & Koutsoklenis, A. (2009). Reading media used by > higher-education students and graduates with visual impairments in > Greece. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(11), 772-777. > > Phelps, A. (2005). NFB launches National Center for Mentoring > Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. > > Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes > of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of > Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. > > Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on > employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, > Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. > > Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, > income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. > > Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it > works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm > > Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment > issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & > M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). > Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. > > Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: > Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille > Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm > > Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, > families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: > American Foundation for the Blind. > > U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from > http://www.census.gov/ > > Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for > empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. > > Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment > outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation > program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. > Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social > Science, 70(4-A), 1181. > > Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). > Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development > relationships and individuals with disabilities. American > Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. > > > > Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC > > REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) > Exam > http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php > > Director, Professional Development and Research > Institute on Blindness > Louisiana Tech University > 210 Woodard Hall > PO Box 3158 > Ruston LA 71272 > Office: 318.257.4554 > Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) > Skype: edwardbell2010 > ebell at latech.edu > www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness > ******************** > "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of > Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal > talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." > -- Stephen Jay Gould > _______________________________________________ > rehab mailing list > rehab at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > rehab: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40 > gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi JJ, > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > class start? > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > > Do I need an advocate? > > Thanks, > > JJ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 > From: Cindy Bennett > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > it, but I have also gotten some. > > Cindy > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > read > > a > > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > >> RJ, > >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > > the > >> answer. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: RJ Sandefur > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >> centers > >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >> > Minh, > >> > > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > as an > >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > children, > >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >> > > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >> > skills > >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >> > people, > >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >> > > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > skills > >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >> > training centers are necessary. > >> > > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing > >> > to > >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >> > > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > you in > >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >> > > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > advantage of > >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > >> > school, employment and life in general. > >> > > >> > Bridgit > >> > Message: 3 > >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >> > From: minh ha > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > Message-ID: > >> > > >> > > > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >> > > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > saying > >> > how > >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success > >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > Maybe > >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of > >> > my > >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > kitchen > >> > and > >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > >> > there > >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > the > >> > experience. > >> > > >> > Minh > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >> ail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > > net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi all, > > I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > and tend to get it least. > I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > exactly how. > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > > it, but I have also gotten some. > > > > Cindy > > > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > >> read > >> a > >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >>> RJ, > >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > >> the > >>> answer. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >>> centers > >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> > >>> > Minh, > >>> > > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > as > >>> > an > >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > children, > >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >>> > > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >>> > skills > >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >>> > people, > >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >>> > > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people > without > >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > >>> > Braille, > >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > skills > >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >>> > training centers are necessary. > >>> > > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the > world > >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > >>> > polite, > >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing > >>> > to > >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >>> > > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > you > >>> > in > >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as > a > >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >>> > > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > advantage > >>> > of > >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > >>> > school, employment and life in general. > >>> > > >>> > Bridgit > >>> > Message: 3 > >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >>> > From: minh ha > >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > Message-ID: > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >>> > > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > saying > >>> > how > >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success > >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > >>> > these > >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > Maybe > >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of > >>> > my > >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; > she > >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > kitchen > >>> > and > >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too > much > >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't > see > >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had > many > >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > >>> > there > >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > >>> > skills > >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > the > >>> > experience. > >>> > > >>> > Minh > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >>> ail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > >> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >> ail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Cindy Bennett > > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Arielle: > Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this > situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not > required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for > me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of > participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even > met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me > was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails > in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, > I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see > another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to > them, it might change their mind. > Thank you so much Arielle! > JJ > > On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi JJ, > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > class start? > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student > attending > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is > allowed > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that > I > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > >> Do I need an advocate? > >> Thanks, > >> JJ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai > l.com > > > > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 > From: Carly Mihalakis > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > , National Association of Blind Students > mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hi, jJ, > > What the hell is a para? > for today, Car > 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >Arielle: > >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this > >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not > >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for > >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of > >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even > >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me > >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails > >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, > >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see > >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to > >them, it might change their mind. > >Thank you so much Arielle! > >JJ > > > >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > > Hi JJ, > > > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot > of > > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you > should > > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your > TVI > > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you > can > > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in > the > > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does > the > > > class start? > > > > > > Arielle > > > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student > attending > > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is > allowed > > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and > the > > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me > in > > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am > good > > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting > that I > > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't > listening? > > >> Do I need an advocate? > > >> Thanks, > > >> JJ > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai > l.com > > > > > > > > >-- > >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > >8th Grade Student > >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > >the NFB. > >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > >Instagram: jj_duran13 > >Skype: jj.duran13 > >Kik: jjd_13 > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. > net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17 > ************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 12 23:02:33 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:02:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <002e01cedff6$22c55670$68500350$@gmail.com> <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <95825F5F-A0ED-4A1A-9BF1-EED483CD1AD6@samobile.net> My guess is that these individuals were not ready for training when they signed up. Some people come into training because the counselor said they ought to or because somebody close to them said they ought to. Some people in that situation make the best of it and some don't. But that's no reason to blame the training centers. Where are you getting the statistic that 74% of blind person to winter training are unemployed? Actually, research seems to indicate that that the majority of persons Who do undergo training become employed or go to school. You ought to read that research study that Arielle sent to the list. This study indicates that people who attend a structured discovery Center are more likely than those who either did not attend a Center or who attend a traditional center to find employment. That's not a guarantee, it's just a tendency. Make of that what you will, but it is not the fault of the training centers if someone chooses not to use their training wisely. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 4:47 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > > It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or > they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but the > proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone says > they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not > employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers who > sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? Apparently > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > > >> If you attend the national convention, the training centers are highly >> toubted all week long. Though I am careful of how much of the nfb > coolaide >> I drink, and catch phrases I swallow, I've just got to give a big thumbs > up >> to our training centers. I am one of those individuals who have not had > the >> opportunity to attend one myself as of yet, but I'll just give a big thank >> you to all of the staff who have done such a good job with the training, > and >> a congradulations to all of the fine folks who have been deamed skilled >> enough to have graduated. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit >> Pollpeter >> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:11 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world >> >> They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good >> government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is >> taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given >> situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools >> and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are >> better equipped to deal with life. >> >> Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who >> didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who >> allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many >> of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget >> that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or >> it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in >> life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you >> are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people >> back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later >> in life would flounder and find no direction. >> >> Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success, but >> neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have. >> It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training >> centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools >> like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find >> confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you >> have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years >> of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers >> have helped many make this transition. >> >> It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach >> skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations. >> College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you >> theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills >> to practical situations. >> >> So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do. >> It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and >> successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the >> exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and >> training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and >> I'm only addressing training centers. >> >> Bridgit >> >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 >> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real >> world >> Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> Minh, >>> >>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >> an >>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> >>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> skills >>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> people, >>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> >>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> Braille, >>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> training centers are necessary. >>> >>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> polite, >>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >> to >>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> >>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >> in >>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> >>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >> of >>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> school, employment and life in general. >>> >>> Bridgit >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> From: minh ha >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> >>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> how >>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >> these >>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >> my >>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> and >>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> there >>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >> skills >>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> experience. >>> >>> Minh >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 >> From: Kaiti Shelton >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know >> what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if >> he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete >> his job as well as any sighted pastor. >> >>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>>> Minh, >>>> >>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >> an >>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>> >>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> skills >>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> people, >>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>> >>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> Braille, >>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>> training centers are necessary. >>>> >>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> polite, >>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >> to >>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >> nature. >>>> >>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >> in >>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >> would >>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>> >>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >> of >>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >> background, >>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>> >>>> Bridgit >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>> From: minh ha >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>> >>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> how >>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >> these >>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >> my >>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> and >>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >> myself >>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> there >>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >> skills >>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>>> experience. >>>> >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 >> gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> RJ, >> No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. >> But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. >> You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. >> So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a >> center >> and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at >> Anywhere >> baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not >> Joe >> Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> Minh, >>> >>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >> an >>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> >>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> skills >>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> people, >>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> >>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> Braille, >>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> training centers are necessary. >>> >>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> polite, >>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >> to >>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> >>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >> in >>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> >>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >> of >>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> school, employment and life in general. >>> >>> Bridgit >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> From: minh ha >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> >>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> how >>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >> these >>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >> my >>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> and >>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> there >>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >> skills >>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> experience. >>> >>> Minh >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink.net >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> RJ, >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get >> the >> answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RJ Sandefur >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> Minh, >>> >>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >> an >>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>> >>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> skills >>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> people, >>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>> >>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> Braille, >>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>> training centers are necessary. >>> >>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> polite, >>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing >> to >>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an >>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. >>> >>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >> in >>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would >>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>> >>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >> of >>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, >>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in >>> school, employment and life in general. >>> >>> Bridgit >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>> From: minh ha >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>> >>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> how >>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain >>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >> these >>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of >> my >>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned >>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of >>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> and >>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself >>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to >>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> there >>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >> skills >>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>> experience. >>> >>> Minh >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink.net >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 >> From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> To: >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. >> No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government >> training centers for the blind. >> >> There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various >> reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few >> receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it >> really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined >> ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those >> mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from >> first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my >> blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I >> was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once >> recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and >> I could have benefited from some training. >> >> I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot >> for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills >> beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. >> >> Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for >> most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a >> lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a >> lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and >> resources to live independently. >> >> Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training >> if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone >> would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to >> work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped >> for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully >> presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people >> who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, >> though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the >> skills, but this seems like a simple solution. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 9 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 >> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: , "National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list" >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and >> she >> has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training >> center >> due to her having a child. RJ >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 >> From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> To: >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Ashley, >> >> The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a >> major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes >> the NFB centers. >> >> Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend >> as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most >> are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough >> to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow >> people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other >> institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you >> suggest or even offer day programs. >> >> The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government >> doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or >> the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will >> not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency >> working with people with disabilities. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 15 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: , "National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list" >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=response >> >> Tyler, >> No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one >> due to >> circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. >> It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more >> home >> based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately >> >> using your own equipment and marking them if needed. >> >> Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about >> receiving >> services from her vr agency? >> They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who >> can >> help her at home. >> Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she >> lives in >> NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there >> are >> two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. >> Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to >> find >> them. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 >> From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> To: >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Steve, >> >> I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively >> care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids >> just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt >> I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most >> parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, >> but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we >> require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, >> hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who >> are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to >> achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only >> enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. >> >> I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can >> be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this >> situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the >> support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to >> be further explored. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 18 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 >> From: "Steve Jacobson" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> RJ, >> >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >> such as that of your friend. In general, >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >> mean for bringing up a child in the long >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >> confident independent traveler without putting in >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >> traveler, for example, one is going to >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >> or to be there for that child. Your >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >> care of the child, and there could be other >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >> take training seems very short-sighted to >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Steve Jacobson >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 10 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 >> From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> To: >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack >> thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it >> doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly >> when written by a blind person. >> >> Bridgit >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 11 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 >> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >> read a >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> RJ, >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll >> get >> the >>> answer. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: RJ Sandefur >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> centers >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>>> Minh, >>>> >>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as >> an >>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, >>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>> >>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> skills >>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> people, >>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>> >>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> Braille, >>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills >>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>> training centers are necessary. >>>> >>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> polite, >>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >> appearing to >>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, >> an >>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >> nature. >>>> >>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you >> in >>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >> would >>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>> >>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage >> of >>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >> background, >>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better >> in >>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>> >>>> Bridgit >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>> From: minh ha >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>> >>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >> how >>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >> gain >>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success >>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >> these >>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe >>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years >> of my >>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >> learned >>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one >> of >>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen >> and >>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >> myself >>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society >> to >>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >> there >>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >> skills >>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the >>>> experience. >>>> >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink. >> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 12 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 >> From: minh ha >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until >> until now. I went to public school all my life and had many >> opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held >> leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't >> think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give >> their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them >> for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, >> which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 >> is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind >> giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't >> otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at >> all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more >> than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as >> cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can >> participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that >> school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to >> ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an >> entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able >> to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful >> support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own >> potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also >> think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well >> instead of waiting on others. >> >> Minh >> >>> On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. >>> >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual >>> person. >>> >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the >>> time. >>> >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >>> process. >>> >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions >>> we came up with to work. >>> >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >>> >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >>> least. >>> >>> Just my thoughts. >>>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>>> RJ, >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever >> center >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for >> her >>>> to >>>> >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >> dormitories, >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to >> stay >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend >> may >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while >> she >>>> is >>>> >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the >> center >>>> may >>>> >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with >> her >>>> on >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, >> but >>>> the >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help >> me >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity >> to >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to >> attend >>>> next >>>> >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to >> me >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out >> so >>>> I >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to >> allow >>>> me >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >>>> friend >>>> >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any >> of >>>> the >>>> >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with >> her on >>>> it. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Misty >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Steve Jacobson >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> RJ, >>>> >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >>>> such >>>> as that of your friend. In general, >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well >> might >>>> mean >>>> >>>> for bringing up a child in the long >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>>> confident >>>> independent traveler without putting in >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a >> confident >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to >> be, >>>> or >>>> to be there for that child. Your >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >>>> care >>>> of the child, and there could be other >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child >> to >>>> take >>>> >>>> training seems very short-sighted to >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four >> years >>>>> ago. >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to >> a >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "minh ha" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired >> over >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to >> teach >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I >> can >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>>> >>>>> Minh >>>> >>>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) >> is >>>>> that >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in >> skills >>>>>> that >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>>> classmates. >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are >> adapted >>>>>> for >>>>> the >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not >> always >>>>> readily >>>>>> available . >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that >> will >>>>> help >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and >> succeed >>>>>> in >>>>> the >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that >> enable >>>>>> us >>>>> to >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only >> can we >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>>>> should >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>>> environments >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that >> generally >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real >> world >>>>>> in >>>>> a >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave >> you >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>>>> Darian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c >> om >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >> dusty >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef >> ur%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40 >> visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai >> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 >> gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kaiti >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c >> om >>> >> >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 13 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 >> From: "Loren Wakefield" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Peter, >> >> Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told >> you have excellent info on. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter >> Donahue >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM >> >> Theweird1 at mediacombb.net >> >> Loren Wakefield >> >> >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> Good evening everyone, >> >> He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael >> California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's >> national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees >> and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One >> area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind >> guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. >> We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged >> blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog >> program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as >> guide dog instructors. >> >> Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide >> Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB >> believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our >> guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and >> custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my >> knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog >> Consumer's Bill of Rights. >> If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted >> their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search >> for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that >> document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would >> implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your >> questions. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> >> Hannah, >> Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. >> He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which >> school this is although I plan to find out. >> >> Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many >> teams >> are fine. >> I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him >> or >> her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. >> But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole >> dog user group a bad representation. >> >> I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged >> animal >> given the advice so far. >> I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her >> decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new >> environment >> and stress. I hope it?s the right decision. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Hannah Chadwick >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> Ashley and Josh, >> Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great >> things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what >> you >> put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in >> to >> your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and >> address >> many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if >> you >> guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has >> never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't >> judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us >> free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I >> strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their >> guides >> and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so >> great. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. >> AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their >> teams >> better than others. >> I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad >> teams. >> It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility >> to >> correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward >> the >> dog too. >> >> Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you >> want, >> not the one in CA. >> You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. >> Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well >> behaved dogs. >> In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that >> cubicle. >> >> They do not make messes. >> They do not sniff excessively. >> And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met >> new >> people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. >> >> >> Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to >> national convention. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> Hi Julie. >> You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. >> I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! >> The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! >> All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. >> This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for >> everyone, >> and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has >> turned >> me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. >> Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with >> your >> school! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity >> [kaybaycar at gmail.com] >> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >> >> Hi all, >> >> I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is >> worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's >> behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us >> means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make >> judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on >> college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt >> well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about >> how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the >> challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized >> we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. >> Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. >> >> As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but >> most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing >> people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide >> us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we >> are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it >> to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of >> dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how >> important this is after all. >> >> Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate >> being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my >> dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The >> reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a >> little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if >> they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog >> no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the >> bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other >> part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. >> But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and >> intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to >> others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure >> you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a >> dog at this college visit. >> >>> On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Great post, Ashley! >>> Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or >>> roam >>> around the room, when not being handled? >>> That has happened way too much where I'm from! >>> Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! >>> You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in >> dog, >>> (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the >>> Blind! >>> Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, >> because >>> that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got >> them! >>> That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! >>> Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett >>> [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] >>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >>> >>> Mark, >>> I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. >>> I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. >>> I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would >> have >>> no >>> problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people >> or >>> exhibit other behavior she mentioned. >>> I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay >> there. >>> >>> You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but >>> when >>> you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you >>> might >>> think again. >>> >>> I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them >> in >>> public places. However, I think with legal rights comes >> responsibility. >>> You >>> have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving >> like a >>> working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and >> should >>> I >>> mention barks? >>> Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. >> But to >>> what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional >> setting >>> before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights >>> comes >>> responsibility. >>> I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to >> have >>> a >>> guide dog. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Mark J. Cadigan >>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of >> Guide >>> Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are >>> themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw >> from >>> when giving advice. >>> >>> >>> >>> Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. >> I >>> would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact >> I >>> have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people >> say >>> about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting >>> accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would >> definitely do >>> so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but >> to >>> get >>> an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a >>> student. >>> >>> >>> >>> My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there >> problem >>> and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide >> dog, >>> and >>> if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being >>> said, >>> you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you >> should >>> stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. >>> >>> >>> >>> The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with >>> someone >>> while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no >> clue >>> what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog >> on >>> the >>> college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and >> not >>> let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but >> they >>> are >>> just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. >>> >>> >>> >>> Feel free to email me off list >>> >>> >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "lizzy" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit >>> >>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but >> now I >>>> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school >> going >>>> not >>>> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it >> is at >>>> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had >> my >>>> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided >> about >>>> if >>>> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My >> reasons >>>> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a >> lot >>>> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). >> I've >>>> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty >> simple (a >>>> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for >> this or >>>> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly >>>> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and >> she is >>>> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't >> make >>>> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing >> an >>>> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a >> current >>>> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs >> or >>>> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. >> I >>>> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think >> I'll >>>> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is >>>> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about >> the >>>> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be >>>> greatly appreciated. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Lizzy >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink. >> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae >> du.o >> nmicrosoft.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co >> m >>> >> >> >> -- >> Julie McG >> National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National >> Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, >> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, >> and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 >> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that >> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal >> life." >> John 3:16 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae >> du.o >> nmicrosoft.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink. >> net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gma >> il.c >> om >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr. >> com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacom >> bb.net >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 14 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 >> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my >> perspective is >> that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they >> could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone >> could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, >> but >> you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea >> of >> going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a >> Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of >> thinking >> drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd >> also >> put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school >> was >> in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth >> the >> investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not >> enroll. >> But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the >> Latino >> culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair >> share >> around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a >> vision >> teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a >> stickler. I >> love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school >> years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed >> up >> with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw >> down >> my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor >> came >> over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and >> found >> the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other >> side >> of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep >> shade >> training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as >> those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route >> to >> get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns >> could >> be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set >> specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not >> everyone >> needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that >> you >> have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and >> deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our >> sighted >> peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers >> could >> do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to >> take a >> break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the >> challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and >> breathing a blindness independence philosophy. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 15 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 >> From: johnnie Jean duran >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to >> change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, >> we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was >> cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I >> was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in >> independently. I have cooked food before, and >> >> -- >> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >> 8th Grade Student >> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >> the NFB. >> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >> Instagram: jj_duran13 >> Skype: jj.duran13 >> Kik: jjd_13 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 16 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 >> From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> >> Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food >> before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you. >> >> Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver >> >>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran >> wrote: >>> >>> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >>> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >>> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to >>> change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, >>> we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was >>> cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I >>> was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in >>> independently. I have cooked food before, and >>> >>> -- >>> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >>> 8th Grade Student >>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>> the NFB. >>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>> Instagram: jj_duran13 >>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>> Kik: jjd_13 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 17 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 >> From: johnnie Jean duran >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >> Do I need an advocate? >> Thanks, >> JJ >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 18 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 >> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult >> Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> This is the research report I was talking about. >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Edward Bell >> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 >> Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and >> Employment Survey:Final Results >> To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC >> mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, >> pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list >> >> Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment >> Survey:Final Results >> >> By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino >> >> >> Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional >> Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech >> University. >> >> >> >> Abstract >> Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United >> States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of >> this study was to determine the current employment status of these >> individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The >> study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, >> and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to >> determine whether some of the factors could be identified as >> contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the >> employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually >> impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings >> show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in >> annual earnings between men and women. Education and >> rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; >> where higher educational attainment is associated with better >> employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained >> under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be >> employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, >> for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white >> cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings >> was higher than those who did not use these tools. >> >> >> >> Keywords >> Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training >> centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery >> >> >> >> Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey >> This study sought to describe the current employment status of >> individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and >> to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it >> explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status >> for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of >> the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the >> literature that analyze the employment situation of people with >> disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related >> to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. >> >> Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports >> The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United >> States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the >> 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults >> age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as >> individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when >> wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that >> they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau >> of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million >> individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision >> loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working >> age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the >> civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the >> labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported >> month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though >> they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor >> force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population >> ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision >> loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, >> 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that >> by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the >> vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive >> employment. >> >> The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the >> current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more >> importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic >> factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased >> employment. >> >> Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System >> In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with >> significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social >> services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them >> in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal >> VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial >> support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and >> Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an >> entire array of education and employment preparation institutions >> (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those >> who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems >> worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many >> others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with >> continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. >> >> The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes >> comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA >> VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with >> employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that >> disability status was the variable that presented the strongest >> negative correlation with employment. The author determined that >> disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, >> particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females >> with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, >> were less likely to be employed. >> >> A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of >> individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no >> disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the >> authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability >> groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more >> than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that >> the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of >> disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% >> were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the >> severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% >> respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that >> disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the >> likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of >> working were significantly less for respondents with severe >> disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly >> earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe >> disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. >> According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of >> obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability >> status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more >> likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. >> >> Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related >> predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who >> received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a >> U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received >> VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services >> (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those >> individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate >> (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were >> individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, >> gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with >> women being less likely to be employed. >> >> The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment >> specifically for the blind and VI population. >> >> Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System >> Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and >> the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients >> with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for >> Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of >> consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% >> of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive >> employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in >> sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive >> employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, >> clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that >> out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the >> legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of >> noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. >> >> According to the literature, there are several factors that predict >> employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, >> training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent >> across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) >> found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an >> integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated >> with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a >> primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, >> and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall >> satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from >> family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology >> training were associated with being employed. In relation to those >> factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they >> identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation >> and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation >> teaching. >> >> In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a >> certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having >> worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to >> rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between >> the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors >> of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) >> concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated >> with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work >> experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive >> technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of >> employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, >> and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and >> the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a >> secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of >> employment. >> >> Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor >> had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those >> individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher >> level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by >> Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was >> a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment >> outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision >> loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other >> hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of >> the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR >> services. >> >> The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed >> that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after >> receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were >> legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African >> American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income >> as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special >> education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, >> Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most >> statistically significant predictors of competitive employment >> outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were >> weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), >> gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. >> >> Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors >> mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with >> visual impairments who were competitively employed through the >> state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) >> concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some >> of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, >> age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual >> impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. >> Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of >> education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in >> earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater >> amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at >> closure was for consumers. >> >> An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on >> employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI >> was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served >> these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the >> mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly >> higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, >> Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a >> relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers >> who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more >> chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), >> however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was >> not a significant factor impacting on earnings. >> >>> From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that >> contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the >> perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to >> the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable >> with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by >> eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held >> to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study >> found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. >> He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology >> skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. >> Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their >> competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of >> the work and transportation challenges. >> >> The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those >> factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and >> McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the >> general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to >> print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. >> Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to >> employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more >> issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those >> who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the >> skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. >> When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor >> did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help >> in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; >> provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of >> counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only >> 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to >> obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation >> services helped them to improve their performances, that the services >> made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that >> the services helped them to maintain their jobs. >> >> Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the >> competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. >> Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 >> data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was >> significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based >> on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have >> shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In >> addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the >> factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, >> education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned >> $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a >> $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread >> between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings >> had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the >> other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the >> other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by >> 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and >> Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those >> with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of >> being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did >> individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American >> veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where >> they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. >> >> White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and >> having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor >> appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions >> (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, >> having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work >> experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, >> Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors >> and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not >> only provide the training that leads to employment but since they >> spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a >> community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s >> vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s >> job. >> >> As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main >> philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: >> the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured >> Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service >> offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn >> independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent >> approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving >> skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National >> Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on >> experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the >> instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the >> instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an >> orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends >> upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the >> information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the >> Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to >> guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly >> relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages >> the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National >> Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). >> >> The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the >> different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind >> or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his >> study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of >> the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the >> philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional >> and alternative approaches related to functional independence, >> individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a >> measure of functional independence than those trained in the >> conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of >> training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by >> examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are >> employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the >> shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately >> utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size >> was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training >> approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences >> were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between >> those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were >> trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya >> (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white >> cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of >> independent living. >> >> Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles >> (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that >> predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment >> rates and higher education levels than reading print as original >> medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized >> Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower >> unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original >> reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille >> as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for >> employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used >> Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at >> a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print >> did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read >> Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing >> updated Braille skills represented an important factor that >> contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. >> >> Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher >> education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore >> the use of different reading media. They found out that the most >> significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual >> status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. >> Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the >> increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with >> training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established >> tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the >> frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that >> efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in >> Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age >> at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille >> courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. >> >> Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, >> and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some >> training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement >> for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) >> while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training >> elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly >> reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, >> 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what >> constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. >> >> Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated >> the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective >> outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & >> Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer >> interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation >> process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as >> well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as >> effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision >> making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). >> Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, >> social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support >> interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, >> 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, >> self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a >> consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation >> process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). >> However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of >> families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that >> put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that >> promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What >> research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve >> as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education >> can impact greater growth and evolution. >> >> Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that >> among the reasons participants thought they were successful in >> overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing >> networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a >> relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to >> others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the >> employment barriers. According to participants in this study, >> rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring >> opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. >> The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could >> assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. >> >> Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a >> consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient >> testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their >> involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. >> Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives >> of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent >> and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as >> positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with >> proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, >> successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to >> the new generations. >> >> Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture >> a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally >> blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study >> sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, >> and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to >> determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable >> through education or training) could be identified as contributing to >> the employment outcomes of these individuals. >> >> Research Questions. The following research questions served as the >> guiding principles for this study. >> >> Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a >> national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research >> findings on the subject? >> Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial >> identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of >> employment and wages for this population? >> Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation >> with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with >> higher rates of employment and wages for this population? >> Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, >> adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with >> increased rates of employment and wages for this population? >> >> Method >> Participants >> The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI >> adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United >> States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an >> average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals >> were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), >> who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 >> Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native >> Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific >> Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who >> reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). >> >> Instruments >> The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult >> Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 >> variables, covering (a) general demographics including living >> situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and >> consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) >> employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future >> research. >> >> Procedures >> All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent >> document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of >> requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a >> notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study >> was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional >> Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for >> participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting >> the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of >> the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a >> research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten >> minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August >> 31, 2011. >> >> Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of >> the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment >> situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the >> United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach >> individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. >> The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all >> available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the >> blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National >> Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically >> to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office >> with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The >> invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve >> the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for >> the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The >> request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and >> adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 >> requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers >> that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 >> print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 >> annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the >> participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were >> distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America >> Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters >> and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social >> media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. >> >> Results >> Demographics >> Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were >> captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample >> population that comprised this study. The respondents were >> representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being >> from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from >> Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind >> (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table >> 1). >> >> Table 1 ? Demographics >> >> Age >> >> >> >> n >> Mean >> SD >> >> 1056 >> 46.47 >> 13.81 >> >> >> Range >> 18-87 >> >> >> >> >> >> Gender >> Frequency >> Percent >> >> Female >> 595 >> 56.34 >> >> Male >> 461 >> 43.66 >> >> Total >> 1056 >> 100 >> >> >> >> >> >> Race/Ethnicity >> Frequency >> Percent >> >> African American, Black >> 90 >> 8.52 >> >> Asian American, Asian >> 35 >> 3.31 >> >> Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) >> 56 >> 5.3 >> >> Native American, Alaska Native >> 8 >> 0.76 >> >> Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander >> 4 >> 0.38 >> >> Other >> 27 >> 2.56 >> >> White or Caucasian >> 836 >> 79.17 >> >> Total >> 1056 >> 100 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Vision Status >> Frequency >> Percent >> >> Blind >> 702 >> 66.48 >> >> Visually Impaired >> 354 >> 33.52 >> >> Total >> 1056 >> 100 >> >> >> Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital >> status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority >> of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that >> they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported >> living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of >> this population are currently married (45%), while just under two >> percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample >> (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next >> largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report >> having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) >> report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the >> community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in >> small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second >> largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between >> 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided >> in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder >> fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). >> >> Table 2 ? Family and Community >> >> >> Living Situation Frequency >> percent >> >> Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am >> purchasing >> 541 >> 51.23 >> >> Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property >> that I pay for >> 300 >> 28.41 >> >> Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home >> 130 >> 12.31 >> >> Live in dormitory or other institution >> 25 >> 2.37 >> >> Share an apartment or rental property with room mates >> 60 >> 5.68 >> >> Total >> 1056 >> 100 >> >> >> >> >> >> Marital Status >> Frequency >> Percent >> >> Divorced >> 107 >> 10.13 >> >> Married >> 475 >> 44.98 >> >> Separated >> 22 >> 2.08 >> >> Single >> 353 >> 33.43 >> >> Widow or widower >> 18 >> 1.7 >> >> With significant other person >> 81 >> 7.67 >> >> Total >> 1056 >> 99.99 >> >> >> >> >> >> Raising Children >> Frequency >> Percent >> >> No, I have no children >> 605 >> 57.29 >> >> 1 child >> 133 >> 12.59 >> >> 2 children >> 176 >> 16.67 >> >> 3 children >> 80 >> 7.58 >> >> 4 children >> 35 >> 3.31 >> >> 5 children >> 11 >> 1.04 >> >> 6 or more children >> 16 >> 1.52 >> >> Total >> 1056 >> 100 >> >> >> >> >> >> Population of Your Community >> Frequency >> Percent >> >> 1-25,000 People >> 245 >> 23.2 >> >> 25,001?75,000 People >> 240 >> 22.73 >> >> 75,001?150,000 People >> 121 >> 11.46 >> >> 150,001?250,000 People >> 104 >> 9.85 >> >> 250,001?500,000 People >> 89 >> 8.43 >> >> 500,001?1,000,000 People >> 121 >> 11.46 >> >> 1,000,001?2,000,001?larger >> 136 >> 12.88 >> >> Total >> 1056 >> 100.01 >> >> >> Vocational Rehabilitation and Education >> The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to >> VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss >> training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with >> their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that >> they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know >> (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported >> having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 >> individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. >> When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to >> blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or >> daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have >> never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual >> impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed >> (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. >> Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a >> residential or day program, but that they did not complete their >> training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they >> attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received >> training in their home or school. >> >> While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, >> this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive >> some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their >> training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals >> who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were >> at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when >> they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use >> of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, >> ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught >> using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n = >> 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between >> my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked >> whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that >> they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 >> individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and >> 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When >> asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for >> current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is >> lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A >> folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249 >> individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in >> height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower >> than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they >> used another type of cane/mobility device. >> >> Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of >> Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille >> at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the >> entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), >> while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). >> When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read >> Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently >> read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read >> Braille (41.95%). >> >> With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about >> their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation >> training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. >> Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and >> percentage of individuals by educational level before and after >> rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of >> individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from >> pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they >> attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in >> education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend >> rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 >> individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help >> them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 >> individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals >> (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was >> either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to >> increase in their educational attainment. >> >> Table 3 -- Education >> >> >> Education >> Before VR Frequency >> Percent >> Education >> After VR >> Frequency >> Percent >> >> Less than High School >> 194 >> 18.37 >> Less than High School >> 13 >> 1.23 >> >> High School diploma/GED >> 349 >> 33.05 >> High School diploma/GED >> 49 >> 4.64 >> >> Some college, but no degree >> 148 >> 14.02 >> Some college, but no degree >> 141 >> 13.35 >> >> Associates Degree/AA >> 50 >> 4.73 >> Associates Degree/AA >> 76 >> 7.2 >> >> Vocational or Trade school >> 15 >> 1.42 >> Vocational or Trade school >> 53 >> 5.02 >> >> Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree >> 147 >> 13.92 >> Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree >> 246 >> 23.3 >> >> Master?s/Graduate Degree >> 72 >> 6.82 >> Master?s/Graduate Degree >> 238 >> 22.54 >> >> Law Degree >> 12 >> 1.14 >> Law Degree >> 21 >> 1.99 >> >> Doctorate degree/post graduate training >> 17 >> 1.61 >> Doctorate degree/post graduate training >> 46 >> 4.36 >> >> Not sure or >> Not applicable >> 52 >> 4.92 >> Not sure or >> Not applicable >> 173 >> 16.38 >> >> Pre Training >> 1056 >> 100 >> Post Training >> 1056 >> 100.01 >> >> >> Consumer and Civic Involvement >> Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer >> organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who >> affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with >> both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the >> NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer >> organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of >> consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) >> reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 >> individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no >> leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local >> or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national >> leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold >> several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. >> >> Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which >> participants participated in other community and/or civic activities >> in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least >> one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number >> of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) >> stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or >> place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding >> leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four >> individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals >> (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals >> (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and >> 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic >> groups. >> >> Employment >> One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the >> employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and >> specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. >> As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed >> prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) >> were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR >> services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed >> full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained >> unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of >> individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who >> were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this >> survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For >> these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = >> $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary >> of $35,000. >> >> Table 4 ? Employment Status >> >> >> Before VR Frequency >> Percentage >> After VR >> Frequency >> Percentage >> >> Full-time employed >> 192 >> 18.18 >> Full-Time >> 393 >> 37.22 >> >> Part-time employed >> 86 >> 8.14 >> Part-Time >> 142 >> 13.45 >> >> Full-time college or vocational student >> 119 >> 11.27 >> Full-Time College >> 72 >> 6.82 >> >> Volunteer part- or full-time >> 33 >> 3.13 >> Vol. F-P >> 45 >> 4.26 >> >> Full-time Homemaker >> 26 >> 2.46 >> Homemaker >> 21 >> 1.99 >> >> Retired from previous employment >> 35 >> 3.31 >> Retired >> 76 >> 7.2 >> >> Unemployed >> 512 >> 48.48 >> Unemployed >> 307 >> 29.07 >> >> N/A, I never had a VR case before >> 53 >> 5.02 >> >> >> >> >> Total >> 1056 >> 99.99 >> * >> 1056 >> 100.01 >> >> >> Information was also collected with respect to the availability of >> fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants >> reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical >> insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals >> (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 >> individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning >> available to them through their work. >> >> Factors that Impact on Employment >> The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general >> demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment >> characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are >> blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, >> it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and >> educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors >> that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The >> demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are >> representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR >> data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of >> the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not >> know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) >> of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that >> their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample >> whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of >> individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis >> will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR >> services and who should most likely be available for participation in >> the workforce. >> >> Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic >> classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to >> determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The >> data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the >> consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was >> there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of >> participants. >> >> Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind >> or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those >> with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a >> greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant >> difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, >> RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a >> rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually >> impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does >> exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were >> non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind >> individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning >> $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant >> differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were >> employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant >> difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, >> p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females >> earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported >> racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences >> were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. >> >> Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI >> help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data >> demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = >> 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in >> the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the >> NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no >> participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed >> at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on >> annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members >> earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning >> $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization >> earning $38,200. >> >> Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that >> are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to >> evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., >> education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) >> demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading >> factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact >> in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, >> this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills >> training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. >> Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white >> cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools >> used by individuals who are blind or VI. >> >> The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the >> employment status of participants based on the level of education that >> had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further >> analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or >> who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those >> who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; >> those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; >> and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of >> 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the >> annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = >> .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high >> school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; >> those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a >> master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral >> degree earning $66,900 annually. >> >> When participants were asked whether they had completed training at >> any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split >> almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed >> training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving >> training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment >> outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a >> more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a >> significant difference based on the method or type of training that >> was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data >> demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a >> Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of >> 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional >> training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either >> received training at home, or who received no formal skills training >> were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these >> individuals was examined, the data again showed significant >> differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend >> continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a >> Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; >> those who received their training at conventional centers earned an >> average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no >> formal training earned an average of $42,753. >> >> Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., >> the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the >> literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for >> example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on >> employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based >> training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one >> concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion >> that those who return for training multiple times have significantly >> less employment than those who only obtain training a single time >> (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained >> training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving >> training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same >> trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = >> .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and >> those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. >> >> More specifically, this research was interested in several specific >> training variables and their impact on employment. The data >> demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long >> white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report >> currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were >> evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that >> individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed >> at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = >> 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of >> 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. >> The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income >> of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users >> earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average >> of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were >> next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to >> employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference >> (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane >> that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, >> those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height >> being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other? >> device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, >> the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings >> (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users >> earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning >> $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. >> >> The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of >> Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. >> Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at >> some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% >> reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers >> employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? >> The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, >> 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed >> at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a >> rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more >> significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille >> readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning >> an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in >> annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that >> Braille has on employment and salary. >> >> Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant >> impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By >> combining the most salient factors together, the results show even >> more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who >> complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, >> continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane >> for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of >> 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those >> individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no >> formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer >> organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed >> at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. >> >> Discussion >> The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in >> the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study >> was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and >> to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. >> In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, >> education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this >> population in order to determine whether some of them could be >> identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. >> >> The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since >> this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of >> rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of >> 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of >> demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on >> employment, the following were found to be the most salient: >> >> a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI >> are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly >> similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for >> this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing >> research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that >> there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. >> b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have >> access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to >> dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement >> planning. >> c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly >> equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on >> average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are >> consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, >> 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). >> d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of >> employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, >> such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. >> e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were >> employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who >> affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning >> $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization >> tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB >> members. >> f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational >> attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this >> population, with those having graduate-level education being employed >> at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, >> and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. >> g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively >> related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured >> Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning >> $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based >> programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These >> results confirm those of Aditya (2004). >> h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), >> was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who >> receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in >> comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, >> and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were >> trained a single time. >> i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily >> mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a >> significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. >> j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed >> at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille >> readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. >> k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete >> training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the >> NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a >> rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. >> l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not >> trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use >> a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning >> only $36,000 annually. >> >> >> Implications >> The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains >> extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may >> help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint >> and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of >> competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. >> Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to >> have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers >> and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the >> benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of >> these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to >> make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of >> the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners >> should know that: >> >> a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment >> need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment. >> b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive >> difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money >> that one can earn. >> c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to >> be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. >> d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good >> idea. >> e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes >> good sense. >> f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than >> getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments. >> >> >> References >> Amato, S. (2009). Challenges and Solutions in Teaching Braille in an >> Online-Education Model. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, >> 103(2), 78-80. >> >> American Foundation for the Blind (2012). Adults with vision loss. >> Retrieved from >> http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?FolderID=2&SectionID=15&TopicID=413&Docu >> mentID=4385 >> >> Aditya, R. N. (2004). A comparison of two orientation and mobility >> certification programs. Unpublished report prepared for the >> Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), Washington, DC. >> >> Baldwin, M. L., & Schumacher, E. J. (2002). A note on job mobility >> among workers with disabilities. Industrial Relations: A Journal of >> Economy & Society, 41(3), 430-441. >> >> Beck-Winchatz, B., & Riccobono, M. (2008). Advancing participation of >> blind students in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Advances >> in Space Research, 42(11), 1855-1858. doi:10.1016/j.asr.2007.05.080. >> >> Bennetts, C. (2003). Mentoring youth: trend and tradition. British >> Journal of Guidance & Counseling, 31(1), 63-76. >> doi:10.1080/0306988031000086170 >> >> Bell, E. C. (2010). Competitive employment for consumers who are >> legally blind: A 10-year retrospective study. Journal of >> Rehabilitation Research & Development, 47(2), 109-116. >> doi:10.1682/JRRD.2009.08.0120 >> >> Bell, E. C. (2012). Mentoring transition-age youth with blindness. The >> Journal of Special Education, 46(3), 170-179. >> >> Capella, M. (2001). Predicting earnings of vocational rehabilitation >> clients with visual impairments. Journal of Rehabilitation, 67(4), >> 43-47. >> >> Capella-McDonnall, M. (2005). Predictors of competitive employment for >> blind and visually impaired consumers of vocational rehabilitation >> services. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(5), 303-315. >> >> Cavenaugh, B. (1999). Relationship of agency structure and client >> characteristics to rehabilitation services and outcomes for consumers >> who are blind. Unpublished manuscript, Mississippi State University, >> Rehabilitation Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low >> Vision, Starkville, MS. >> >> Cavenaugh, B. S., Giesen, J. M., & Pierce, S. J. (2000). >> Rehabilitation of visually impaired persons in separate and general >> agencies. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 94(3), 133-145. >> >> Cavenaugh, B., Giesen, J., & Steinman, B. (2006). Contextual effects >> of race or ethnicity on acceptance for vocational rehabilitation of >> consumers who are legally blind. Journal of Visual Impairment & >> Blindness, 100(7), 425-436. >> >> Crudden, A., & McBroom, L. (1999). Barriers to employment: A survey of >> employed persons who are visually impaired. Journal of Visual >> Impairment and Blindness, 93(6), 341-350. >> >> Darensbourg, B. (2013). Predictors of competitive employment of VR >> consumers with blindness or visual impairments. Journal of Vocational >> Rehabilitation. 38(1), 29-34. doi: 10.3233/JVR-120618 >> >> Ferguson, R. (2001). We know who we are: A history of the blind in >> challenging educational and socially constructed policies: A study in >> policy archeology. San Francisco, CA: Caddo Gap. >> >> Fireison, C., & Moore, J. (1998). Employment Outcomes and Educational >> Backgrounds of Legally Blind Adults Employed in Sheltered Industrial >> Settings. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 92(11), 740-47. >> >> Golub, D. B. (2006). A model of successful work experience for >> employees who are visually impaired: The results of a study. Journal >> of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(12), 715-725. >> >> Hall, L. J., & McGregor, J. A. (2000). A follow-up study of the peer >> relationships of children with disabilities in an inclusive school. >> The Journal of Special Education, 34(3), 114-126. >> >> Harris, A. (2008). Messages to take away: Final reflections on >> residential rehabilitation. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from >> http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080216.htm >> >> Hershenson, D. (1998). Systemic, ecological model for rehabilitation >> counseling. Rehabilitation Counseling Bulletin, 42(1), 40-50. >> >> Jeanmarie, K. & Strauser, D. R. (2000). Job readiness, self-efficacy >> and work personality: A comparison of trainee and instructor >> perceptions. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 14(1) 13-21. >> >> Leonard, R., D'Allura, T., & Horowitz, A. (1999). Factors associated >> with employment among persons who have a vision impairment: A >> follow-up of vocational placement referrals. Journal of Vocational >> Rehabilitation, 12(1), 33-43. >> >> Marks, S., & Feeley, D. (1995). Transition in action: Michigan's >> experience. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(3), 272-275. >> >> Martz, E., & Xu, Y. (2008). Person-related and service-related factors >> predicting employment of individuals with disabilities. Journal of >> Vocational Rehabilitation, 28(2), 97-104. >> >> Mayo, S., Allen, P. & Deden, J. (2008). A governing philosophy: >> Strategies for implementing a progressive approach in a center-based >> environment. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from >> http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080209.htm >> >> Mettler, R. (2008). Cognitive learning theory and cane travel >> instructors: A new paradigm (2nd ed.). Lincoln, NE: Nebraska >> Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired. >> >> McDonnall, M., & Crudden, A. (2009). Factors affecting the successful >> employment of transition-age youths with visual impairments. Journal >> of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(6), 329-341. >> >> Miller, J. (2002). The Role of Orientation and Mobility Instructors >> and Rehabilitation Teachers in Enhancing Employment Opportunities for >> Persons Who Are Visually Impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment & >> Blindness, 96(12), 852-55. >> >> Nagle, K. M. (2001). Transition to employment and community life for >> youths with visual impairments: Current status and future directions. >> Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 95(12), 725-738. >> >> National Blindness Professional Certification Board (2012). Structured >> Discovery Cane Travel. Retrieved from >> http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/sdct.php >> >> Omvig, J. (2002). Freedom for the Blind: The secret is empowerment. >> Hot Springs, AR: Region VI Rehabilitation Continuing Education >> Program, University of Arkansas Press. >> >> Omvig, J. (2005). The characteristics of an NFB orientation center. >> Braille Monitor, 48(4). Retrieved from >> http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05/bm0504/bm050403.htm >> >> Ozawa, M., & Yeo, Y. (2006). Work Status and Work Performance of >> People With Disabilities: An Empirical Study. Journal of Disability >> Policy Studies, 17(3), 180-190. doi:10.1177/10442073060170030601. >> >> Papadopoulos, K., & Koutsoklenis, A. (2009). Reading media used by >> higher-education students and graduates with visual impairments in >> Greece. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(11), 772-777. >> >> Phelps, A. (2005). NFB launches National Center for Mentoring >> Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. >> >> Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes >> of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of >> Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. >> >> Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on >> employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, >> Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. >> >> Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, >> income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & >> Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. >> >> Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it >> works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from >> http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm >> >> Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment >> issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & >> M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). >> Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. >> >> Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: >> Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille >> Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from >> http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm >> >> Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, >> families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: >> American Foundation for the Blind. >> >> U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from >> http://www.census.gov/ >> >> Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for >> empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. >> >> Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment >> outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation >> program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. >> Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social >> Science, 70(4-A), 1181. >> >> Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). >> Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development >> relationships and individuals with disabilities. American >> Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. >> >> >> >> Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC >> >> REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) >> Exam >> http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php >> >> Director, Professional Development and Research >> Institute on Blindness >> Louisiana Tech University >> 210 Woodard Hall >> PO Box 3158 >> Ruston LA 71272 >> Office: 318.257.4554 >> Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) >> Skype: edwardbell2010 >> ebell at latech.edu >> www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness >> ******************** >> "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of >> Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal >> talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." >> -- Stephen Jay Gould >> _______________________________________________ >> rehab mailing list >> rehab at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> rehab: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40 >> gmail.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 19 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 >> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Hi JJ, >> >> I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of >> experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? >> Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should >> participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your >> side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting >> Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate >> for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI >> as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are >> supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI >> and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a >> para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this >> arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can >> still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the >> class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the >> class start? >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >>> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending >>> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed >>> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >>> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >>> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >>> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >>> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I >>> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >>> Do I need an advocate? >>> Thanks, >>> JJ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co >> m >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 20 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 >> From: Cindy Bennett >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing >> it, but I have also gotten some. >> >> Cindy >> >>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >> read >>> a >>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>>> RJ, >>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll >> get >>> the >>>> answer. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>> centers >>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> >>>>> Minh, >>>>> >>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >> as an >>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >> children, >>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>> >>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>> skills >>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>> people, >>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>> >>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without >>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> Braille, >>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >> skills >>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>> >>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world >>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> polite, >>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >> appearing >>>>> to >>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, >> an >>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >> nature. >>>>> >>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >> you in >>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >> would >>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a >>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>> >>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >> advantage of >>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >> background, >>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better >> in >>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>> >>>>> Bridgit >>>>> Message: 3 >>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>> From: minh ha >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>> >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >> saying >>>>> how >>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >> gain >>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >> success >>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >> these >>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >> Maybe >>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years >> of >>>>> my >>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >> learned >>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one >> of >>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she >>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >> kitchen >>>>> and >>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much >>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >> myself >>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see >>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society >> to >>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many >>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >>>>> there >>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >> skills >>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >> the >>>>> experience. >>>>> >>>>> Minh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink. >>> net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> >> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 21 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 >> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Hi all, >> >> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >> and tend to get it least. >> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >> exactly how. >> >> Arielle >> >>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing >>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can >>>> read >>>> a >>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> >>>>> RJ, >>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll >> get >>>> the >>>>> answer. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>>> centers >>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Minh, >>>>>> >>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >> as >>>>>> an >>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >> children, >>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>>> skills >>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>> people, >>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>> >>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >> without >>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>> Braille, >>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >> skills >>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >> world >>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on >>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>> polite, >>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >> appearing >>>>>> to >>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, >> an >>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >> nature. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >> you >>>>>> in >>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >> would >>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >> a >>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>> >>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >> advantage >>>>>> of >>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >> background, >>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better >> in >>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>> >>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >> saying >>>>>> how >>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >> gain >>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >> success >>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment >>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>>>>> these >>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >> Maybe >>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years >> of >>>>>> my >>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >> learned >>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one >> of >>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >> she >>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >> kitchen >>>>>> and >>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >> much >>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >> myself >>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >> see >>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society >> to >>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >> many >>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out >>>>>> there >>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is >>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>> skills >>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >> the >>>>>> experience. >>>>>> >>>>>> Minh >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink. >>>> net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% >> 40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>> >>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co >> m >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 22 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 >> From: johnnie Jean duran >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Arielle: >> Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >> situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >> required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >> me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >> participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >> met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >> was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >> in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >> I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >> another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >> them, it might change their mind. >> Thank you so much Arielle! >> JJ >> >>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> Hi JJ, >>> >>> I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of >>> experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? >>> Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should >>> participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your >>> side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting >>> Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate >>> for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI >>> as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are >>> supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI >>> and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a >>> para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this >>> arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can >>> still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the >>> class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the >>> class start? >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>>> On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>>> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >>>> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student >> attending >>>> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is >> allowed >>>> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >>>> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >>>> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >>>> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >>>> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that >> I >>>> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >>>> Do I need an advocate? >>>> Thanks, >>>> JJ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co >> m >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai >> l.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >> 8th Grade Student >> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >> the NFB. >> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >> Instagram: jj_duran13 >> Skype: jj.duran13 >> Kik: jjd_13 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 23 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 >> From: Carly Mihalakis >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> , National Association of Blind Students >> mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >> >> Hi, jJ, >> >> What the hell is a para? >> for today, Car >> 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>> Arielle: >>> Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >>> situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >>> required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >>> me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >>> participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >>> met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >>> was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >>> in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >>> I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >>> another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >>> them, it might change their mind. >>> Thank you so much Arielle! >>> JJ >>> >>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> Hi JJ, >>>> >>>> I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot >> of >>>> experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? >>>> Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you >> should >>>> participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your >>>> side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting >>>> Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate >>>> for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your >> TVI >>>> as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are >>>> supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI >>>> and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a >>>> para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this >>>> arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you >> can >>>> still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in >> the >>>> class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does >> the >>>> class start? >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>>> On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>>>> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >>>>> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student >> attending >>>>> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is >> allowed >>>>> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >>>>> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and >> the >>>>> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me >> in >>>>> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am >> good >>>>> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting >> that I >>>>> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't >> listening? >>>>> Do I need an advocate? >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> JJ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co >> m >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai >> l.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >>> 8th Grade Student >>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>> the NFB. >>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>> Instagram: jj_duran13 >>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>> Kik: jjd_13 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. >> net >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Subject: Digest Footer >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17 >> ************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 12 23:03:17 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:03:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <002e01cedff6$22c55670$68500350$@gmail.com> <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <4B34AE681AB242238521229C323652EE@OwnerPC> RJ, be careful; your message cut off mid sentence, fyi. -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but the proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone says they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers who sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? Apparently ----- Original Message ----- From: "justin williams" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > If you attend the national convention, the training centers are highly > toubted all week long. Though I am careful of how much of the nfb coolaide > I drink, and catch phrases I swallow, I've just got to give a big thumbs up > to our training centers. I am one of those individuals who have not had the > opportunity to attend one myself as of yet, but I'll just give a big thank > you to all of the staff who have done such a good job with the training, and > a congradulations to all of the fine folks who have been deamed skilled > enough to have graduated. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit > Pollpeter > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:11 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > > They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good > government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is > taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given > situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools > and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are > better equipped to deal with life. > > Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who > didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who > allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many > of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget > that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or > it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in > life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you > are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people > back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later > in life would flounder and find no direction. > > Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success, but > neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have. > It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training > centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools > like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find > confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you > have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years > of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers > have helped many make this transition. > > It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach > skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations. > College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you > theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills > to practical situations. > > So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do. > It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and > successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the > exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and > training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and > I'm only addressing training centers. > > Bridgit > > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real > world > Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 > From: Kaiti Shelton > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know > what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if > he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete > his job as well as any sighted pastor. > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > >> Minh, > >> > >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >> > >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >> > >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >> training centers are necessary. > >> > >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >> > >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >> > >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > >> school, employment and life in general. > >> > >> Bridgit > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >> From: minh ha > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> Message-ID: > >> > >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >> > >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > >> experience. > >> > >> Minh > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 > gmail.com > > > > > -- > Kaiti > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > RJ, > No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. > But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. > You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. > So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a > center > and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at > Anywhere > baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not > Joe > Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > RJ, > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > the > answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RJ Sandefur > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Minh, > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > training centers are necessary. > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > to > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > my > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > experience. > > > > Minh > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. > No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government > training centers for the blind. > > There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various > reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few > receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it > really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined > ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those > mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from > first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my > blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I > was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once > recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and > I could have benefited from some training. > > I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot > for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills > beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. > > Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for > most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a > lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a > lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and > resources to live independently. > > Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training > if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone > would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to > work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped > for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully > presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people > who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, > though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the > skills, but this seems like a simple solution. > > Bridgit > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and > she > has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training > center > due to her having a child. RJ > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Ashley, > > The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a > major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes > the NFB centers. > > Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend > as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most > are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough > to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow > people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other > institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you > suggest or even offer day programs. > > The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government > doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or > the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will > not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency > working with people with disabilities. > > Bridgit > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response > > Tyler, > No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one > due to > circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. > It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more > home > based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately > > using your own equipment and marking them if needed. > > Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about > receiving > services from her vr agency? > They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who > can > help her at home. > Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she > lives in > NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there > are > two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. > Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to > find > them. > > Ashley > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Steve, > > I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively > care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids > just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt > I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most > parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, > but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we > require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, > hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who > are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to > achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only > enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. > > I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can > be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this > situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the > support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to > be further explored. > > Bridgit > Message: 18 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 > From: "Steve Jacobson" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > RJ, > > It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > such as that of your friend. In general, > though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might > mean for bringing up a child in the long > run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > confident independent traveler without putting in > some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident > traveler, for example, one is going to > find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, > or to be there for that child. Your > friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > care of the child, and there could be other > considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to > take training seems very short-sighted to > me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack > thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it > doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly > when written by a blind person. > > Bridgit > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > read a > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > RJ, > > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > the > > answer. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RJ Sandefur > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > centers > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > Minh, > > > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > an > > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > skills > > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > people, > > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > > training centers are necessary. > > > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing to > > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > > > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > in > > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > of > > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > > > Bridgit > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > > From: minh ha > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > how > > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of my > > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > and > > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > there > > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > > experience. > > > > > > Minh > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > ail.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 > From: minh ha > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until > until now. I went to public school all my life and had many > opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held > leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't > think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give > their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them > for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, > which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 > is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind > giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't > otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at > all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more > than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as > cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can > participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that > school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to > ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an > entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able > to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful > support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own > potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also > think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well > instead of waiting on others. > > Minh > > On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > > person. > > > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > > time. > > > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > > process. > > > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > > we came up with to work. > > > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > > least. > > > > Just my thoughts. > > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > >> RJ, > >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever > center > >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for > her > >> to > >> > >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory > >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of > dormitories, > >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to > stay > >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend > may > >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while > she > >> is > >> > >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the > center > >> may > >> > >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with > her > >> on > >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. > >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, > but > >> the > >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help > me > >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity > to > >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to > attend > >> next > >> > >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to > me > >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out > so > >> I > >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to > allow > >> me > >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your > >> friend > >> > >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any > of > >> the > >> > >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with > her on > >> it. > >> Thanks, > >> Misty > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Steve Jacobson > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> RJ, > >> > >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > >> such > >> as that of your friend. In general, > >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well > might > >> mean > >> > >> for bringing up a child in the long > >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > >> confident > >> independent traveler without putting in > >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a > confident > >> traveler, for example, one is going to > >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to > be, > >> or > >> to be there for that child. Your > >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > >> care > >> of the child, and there could be other > >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child > to > >> take > >> > >> training seems very short-sighted to > >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Steve Jacobson > >> > >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> > >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four > years > >>> ago. > >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to > a > >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ > >>>----- Original Message ----- > >>>From: "minh ha" > >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM > >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired > over > >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, > >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to > >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to > teach > >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain > >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I > can > >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > >>>going to do me any good without the experience. > >> > >>>Minh > >> > >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. > >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) > is > >>>that > >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in > skills > >>>> that > >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their > >>>classmates. > >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are > adapted > >>>> for > >>>the > >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not > always > >>>readily > >>>> available . > >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that > will > >>>help > >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and > succeed > >>>> in > >>>the > >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that > enable > >>>> us > >>>to > >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only > can we > >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this > >>>> should > >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. > >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning > >>>environments > >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that > generally > >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real > world > >>>> in > >>>a > >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave > you > >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. > >>>> Darian > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c > om > >>>> > >> > >> > >>>-- > >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the > dusty > >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > >> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>nabs-l: > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef > ur%40gm > >>>ail.com > >> > >> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>nabs-l mailing list > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>nabs-l: > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40 > visi.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai > l.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 > gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c > om > > > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 > From: "Loren Wakefield" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Peter, > > Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told > you have excellent info on. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Donahue > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM > > Theweird1 at mediacombb.net > > Loren Wakefield > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Good evening everyone, > > He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael > California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's > national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees > and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One > area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind > guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. > We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged > blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog > program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as > guide dog instructors. > > Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide > Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB > believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our > guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and > custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my > knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog > Consumer's Bill of Rights. > If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted > their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search > for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that > document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would > implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your > questions. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > Hannah, > Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. > He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which > school this is although I plan to find out. > > Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many > teams > are fine. > I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him > or > her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. > But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole > dog user group a bad representation. > > I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged > animal > given the advice so far. > I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her > decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new > environment > and stress. I hope it?s the right decision. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Hannah Chadwick > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Ashley and Josh, > Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great > things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what > you > put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in > to > your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and > address > many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if > you > guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has > never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't > judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us > free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I > strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their > guides > and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so > great. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. > AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their > teams > better than others. > I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad > teams. > It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility > to > correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward > the > dog too. > > Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you > want, > not the one in CA. > You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. > Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well > behaved dogs. > In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that > cubicle. > > They do not make messes. > They do not sniff excessively. > And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met > new > people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. > > > Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to > national convention. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi Julie. > You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. > I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! > The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! > All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. > This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for > everyone, > and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has > turned > me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. > Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with > your > school! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity > [kaybaycar at gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Hi all, > > I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is > worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's > behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us > means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make > judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on > college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt > well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about > how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the > challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized > we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. > Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. > > As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but > most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing > people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide > us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we > are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it > to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of > dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how > important this is after all. > > Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate > being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my > dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The > reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a > little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if > they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog > no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the > bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other > part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. > But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and > intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to > others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure > you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a > dog at this college visit. > > On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Great post, Ashley! > > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > > roam > > around the room, when not being handled? > > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in > dog, > > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > > Blind! > > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, > because > > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got > them! > > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Mark, > > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would > have > > no > > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people > or > > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay > there. > > > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > > when > > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > > might > > think again. > > > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them > in > > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes > responsibility. > > You > > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving > like a > > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and > should > > I > > mention barks? > > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. > But to > > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional > setting > > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > > comes > > responsibility. > > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to > have > > a > > guide dog. > > > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark J. Cadigan > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of > Guide > > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw > from > > when giving advice. > > > > > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. > I > > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact > I > > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people > say > > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would > definitely do > > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but > to > > get > > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > > student. > > > > > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there > problem > > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide > dog, > > and > > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > > said, > > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you > should > > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > > someone > > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no > clue > > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog > on > > the > > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and > not > > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but > they > > are > > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "lizzy" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > > >> Hi All, > >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but > now I > >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school > going > >> not > >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it > is at > >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had > my > >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided > about > >> if > >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My > reasons > >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a > lot > >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). > I've > >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty > simple (a > >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for > this or > >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and > she is > >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't > make > >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > an > >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a > current > >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs > or > >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. > I > >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think > I'll > >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > the > >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > >> greatly appreciated. > >> Thanks, > >> Lizzy > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae > du.o > nmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co > m > > > > > -- > Julie McG > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae > du.o > nmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gma > il.c > om > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr. > com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacom > bb.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my > perspective is > that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they > could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone > could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, > but > you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea > of > going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a > Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of > thinking > drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd > also > put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school > was > in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth > the > investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not > enroll. > But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the > Latino > culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair > share > around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a > vision > teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a > stickler. I > love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school > years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed > up > with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw > down > my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor > came > over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and > found > the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other > side > of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep > shade > training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as > those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route > to > get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns > could > be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set > specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not > everyone > needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that > you > have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and > deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our > sighted > peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers > could > do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to > take a > break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the > challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and > breathing a blindness independence philosophy. > > Joe > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 > From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food > before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you. > > Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > > > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran > wrote: > > > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > > > -- > > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > > 8th Grade Student > > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > > the NFB. > > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > > Instagram: jj_duran13 > > Skype: jj.duran13 > > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > Do I need an advocate? > Thanks, > JJ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult > Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > This is the research report I was talking about. > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Edward Bell > Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 > Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and > Employment Survey:Final Results > To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC > mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, > pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list > > Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment > Survey:Final Results > > By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino > > > Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional > Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech > University. > > > > Abstract > Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United > States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of > this study was to determine the current employment status of these > individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The > study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, > and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to > determine whether some of the factors could be identified as > contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the > employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually > impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings > show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in > annual earnings between men and women. Education and > rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; > where higher educational attainment is associated with better > employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained > under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be > employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, > for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white > cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings > was higher than those who did not use these tools. > > > > Keywords > Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training > centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery > > > > Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey > This study sought to describe the current employment status of > individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and > to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it > explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status > for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of > the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the > literature that analyze the employment situation of people with > disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related > to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. > > Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports > The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United > States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the > 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults > age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as > individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when > wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that > they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau > of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million > individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision > loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working > age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the > civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the > labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported > month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though > they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor > force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population > ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision > loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, > 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that > by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the > vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive > employment. > > The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the > current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more > importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic > factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased > employment. > > Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System > In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with > significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social > services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them > in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal > VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial > support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and > Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an > entire array of education and employment preparation institutions > (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those > who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems > worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many > others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with > continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. > > The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes > comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA > VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with > employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that > disability status was the variable that presented the strongest > negative correlation with employment. The author determined that > disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, > particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females > with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, > were less likely to be employed. > > A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of > individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no > disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the > authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability > groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more > than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that > the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of > disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% > were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the > severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% > respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that > disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the > likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of > working were significantly less for respondents with severe > disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly > earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe > disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. > According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of > obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability > status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more > likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. > > Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related > predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who > received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a > U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received > VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services > (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those > individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate > (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were > individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, > gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with > women being less likely to be employed. > > The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment > specifically for the blind and VI population. > > Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System > Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and > the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients > with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for > Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of > consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% > of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive > employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in > sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive > employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, > clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that > out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the > legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of > noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. > > According to the literature, there are several factors that predict > employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, > training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent > across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) > found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an > integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated > with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a > primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, > and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall > satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from > family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology > training were associated with being employed. In relation to those > factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they > identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation > and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation > teaching. > > In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a > certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having > worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to > rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between > the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors > of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) > concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated > with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work > experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive > technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of > employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, > and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and > the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a > secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of > employment. > > Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor > had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those > individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher > level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by > Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was > a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment > outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision > loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other > hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of > the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR > services. > > The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed > that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after > receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were > legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African > American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income > as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special > education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, > Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most > statistically significant predictors of competitive employment > outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were > weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), > gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. > > Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors > mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with > visual impairments who were competitively employed through the > state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) > concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some > of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, > age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual > impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. > Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of > education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in > earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater > amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at > closure was for consumers. > > An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on > employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI > was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served > these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the > mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly > higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, > Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a > relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers > who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more > chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), > however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was > not a significant factor impacting on earnings. > > >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that > contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the > perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to > the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable > with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by > eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held > to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study > found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. > He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology > skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. > Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their > competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of > the work and transportation challenges. > > The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those > factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and > McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the > general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to > print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. > Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to > employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more > issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those > who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the > skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. > When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor > did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help > in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; > provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of > counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only > 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to > obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation > services helped them to improve their performances, that the services > made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that > the services helped them to maintain their jobs. > > Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the > competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. > Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 > data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was > significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based > on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have > shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In > addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the > factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, > education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned > $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a > $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread > between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings > had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the > other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the > other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by > 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and > Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those > with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of > being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did > individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American > veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where > they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. > > White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and > having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor > appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions > (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, > having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work > experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, > Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors > and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not > only provide the training that leads to employment but since they > spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a > community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s > vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s > job. > > As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main > philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: > the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured > Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service > offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn > independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent > approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving > skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National > Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on > experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the > instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the > instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an > orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends > upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the > information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the > Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to > guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly > relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages > the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National > Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). > > The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the > different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind > or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his > study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of > the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the > philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional > and alternative approaches related to functional independence, > individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a > measure of functional independence than those trained in the > conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of > training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by > examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are > employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the > shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately > utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size > was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training > approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences > were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between > those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were > trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya > (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white > cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of > independent living. > > Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles > (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that > predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment > rates and higher education levels than reading print as original > medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized > Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower > unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original > reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille > as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for > employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used > Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at > a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print > did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read > Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing > updated Braille skills represented an important factor that > contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. > > Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher > education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore > the use of different reading media. They found out that the most > significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual > status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. > Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the > increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with > training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established > tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the > frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that > efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in > Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age > at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille > courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. > > Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, > and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some > training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement > for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) > while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training > elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly > reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, > 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what > constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. > > Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated > the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective > outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & > Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer > interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation > process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as > well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as > effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision > making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). > Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, > social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support > interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, > 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, > self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a > consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation > process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). > However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of > families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that > put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that > promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What > research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve > as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education > can impact greater growth and evolution. > > Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that > among the reasons participants thought they were successful in > overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing > networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a > relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to > others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the > employment barriers. According to participants in this study, > rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring > opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. > The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could > assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. > > Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a > consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient > testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their > involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. > Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives > of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent > and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as > positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with > proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, > successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to > the new generations. > > Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture > a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally > blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study > sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, > and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to > determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable > through education or training) could be identified as contributing to > the employment outcomes of these individuals. > > Research Questions. The following research questions served as the > guiding principles for this study. > > Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a > national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research > findings on the subject? > Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial > identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of > employment and wages for this population? > Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation > with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with > higher rates of employment and wages for this population? > Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, > adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with > increased rates of employment and wages for this population? > > Method > Participants > The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI > adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United > States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an > average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals > were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), > who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 > Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native > Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific > Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who > reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). > > Instruments > The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult > Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 > variables, covering (a) general demographics including living > situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and > consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) > employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future > research. > > Procedures > All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent > document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of > requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a > notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study > was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional > Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for > participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting > the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of > the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a > research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten > minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August > 31, 2011. > > Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of > the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment > situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the > United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach > individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. > The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all > available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the > blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National > Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically > to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office > with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The > invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve > the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for > the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The > request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and > adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 > requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers > that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 > print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 > annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the > participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were > distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America > Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters > and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social > media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. > > Results > Demographics > Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were > captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample > population that comprised this study. The respondents were > representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being > from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from > Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind > (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table > 1). > > Table 1 ? Demographics > > Age > > > > n > Mean > SD > > 1056 > 46.47 > 13.81 > > > Range > 18-87 > > > > > > Gender > Frequency > Percent > > Female > 595 > 56.34 > > Male > 461 > 43.66 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Race/Ethnicity > Frequency > Percent > > African American, Black > 90 > 8.52 > > Asian American, Asian > 35 > 3.31 > > Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) > 56 > 5.3 > > Native American, Alaska Native > 8 > 0.76 > > Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander > 4 > 0.38 > > Other > 27 > 2.56 > > White or Caucasian > 836 > 79.17 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > > > Vision Status > Frequency > Percent > > Blind > 702 > 66.48 > > Visually Impaired > 354 > 33.52 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital > status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority > of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that > they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported > living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of > this population are currently married (45%), while just under two > percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample > (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next > largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report > having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) > report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the > community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in > small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second > largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between > 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided > in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder > fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). > > Table 2 ? Family and Community > > > Living Situation Frequency > percent > > Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am > purchasing > 541 > 51.23 > > Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property > that I pay for > 300 > 28.41 > > Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home > 130 > 12.31 > > Live in dormitory or other institution > 25 > 2.37 > > Share an apartment or rental property with room mates > 60 > 5.68 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Marital Status > Frequency > Percent > > Divorced > 107 > 10.13 > > Married > 475 > 44.98 > > Separated > 22 > 2.08 > > Single > 353 > 33.43 > > Widow or widower > 18 > 1.7 > > With significant other person > 81 > 7.67 > > Total > 1056 > 99.99 > > > > > > Raising Children > Frequency > Percent > > No, I have no children > 605 > 57.29 > > 1 child > 133 > 12.59 > > 2 children > 176 > 16.67 > > 3 children > 80 > 7.58 > > 4 children > 35 > 3.31 > > 5 children > 11 > 1.04 > > 6 or more children > 16 > 1.52 > > Total > 1056 > 100 > > > > > > Population of Your Community > Frequency > Percent > > 1-25,000 People > 245 > 23.2 > > 25,001?75,000 People > 240 > 22.73 > > 75,001?150,000 People > 121 > 11.46 > > 150,001?250,000 People > 104 > 9.85 > > 250,001?500,000 People > 89 > 8.43 > > 500,001?1,000,000 People > 121 > 11.46 > > 1,000,001?2,000,001?larger > 136 > 12.88 > > Total > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Vocational Rehabilitation and Education > The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to > VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss > training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with > their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that > they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know > (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported > having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 > individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. > When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to > blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or > daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have > never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual > impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed > (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. > Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a > residential or day program, but that they did not complete their > training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they > attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received > training in their home or school. > > While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, > this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive > some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their > training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals > who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were > at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when > they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use > of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, > ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught > using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n = > 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between > my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked > whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that > they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 > individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and > 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When > asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for > current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is > lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A > folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249 > individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in > height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower > than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they > used another type of cane/mobility device. > > Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of > Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille > at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the > entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), > while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). > When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read > Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently > read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read > Braille (41.95%). > > With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about > their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation > training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. > Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and > percentage of individuals by educational level before and after > rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of > individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from > pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they > attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in > education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend > rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 > individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help > them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 > individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals > (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was > either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to > increase in their educational attainment. > > Table 3 -- Education > > > Education > Before VR Frequency > Percent > Education > After VR > Frequency > Percent > > Less than High School > 194 > 18.37 > Less than High School > 13 > 1.23 > > High School diploma/GED > 349 > 33.05 > High School diploma/GED > 49 > 4.64 > > Some college, but no degree > 148 > 14.02 > Some college, but no degree > 141 > 13.35 > > Associates Degree/AA > 50 > 4.73 > Associates Degree/AA > 76 > 7.2 > > Vocational or Trade school > 15 > 1.42 > Vocational or Trade school > 53 > 5.02 > > Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree > 147 > 13.92 > Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree > 246 > 23.3 > > Master?s/Graduate Degree > 72 > 6.82 > Master?s/Graduate Degree > 238 > 22.54 > > Law Degree > 12 > 1.14 > Law Degree > 21 > 1.99 > > Doctorate degree/post graduate training > 17 > 1.61 > Doctorate degree/post graduate training > 46 > 4.36 > > Not sure or > Not applicable > 52 > 4.92 > Not sure or > Not applicable > 173 > 16.38 > > Pre Training > 1056 > 100 > Post Training > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Consumer and Civic Involvement > Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer > organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who > affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with > both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the > NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer > organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of > consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) > reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 > individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no > leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local > or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national > leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold > several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. > > Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which > participants participated in other community and/or civic activities > in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least > one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number > of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) > stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or > place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding > leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four > individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals > (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals > (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and > 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic > groups. > > Employment > One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the > employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and > specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. > As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed > prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) > were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR > services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed > full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained > unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of > individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who > were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this > survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For > these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = > $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary > of $35,000. > > Table 4 ? Employment Status > > > Before VR Frequency > Percentage > After VR > Frequency > Percentage > > Full-time employed > 192 > 18.18 > Full-Time > 393 > 37.22 > > Part-time employed > 86 > 8.14 > Part-Time > 142 > 13.45 > > Full-time college or vocational student > 119 > 11.27 > Full-Time College > 72 > 6.82 > > Volunteer part- or full-time > 33 > 3.13 > Vol. F-P > 45 > 4.26 > > Full-time Homemaker > 26 > 2.46 > Homemaker > 21 > 1.99 > > Retired from previous employment > 35 > 3.31 > Retired > 76 > 7.2 > > Unemployed > 512 > 48.48 > Unemployed > 307 > 29.07 > > N/A, I never had a VR case before > 53 > 5.02 > > > > > Total > 1056 > 99.99 > * > 1056 > 100.01 > > > Information was also collected with respect to the availability of > fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants > reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical > insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals > (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 > individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning > available to them through their work. > > Factors that Impact on Employment > The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general > demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment > characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are > blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, > it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and > educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors > that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The > demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are > representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR > data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of > the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not > know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) > of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that > their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample > whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of > individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis > will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR > services and who should most likely be available for participation in > the workforce. > > Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic > classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to > determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The > data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the > consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was > there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of > participants. > > Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind > or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those > with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a > greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant > difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, > RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a > rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually > impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does > exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were > non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind > individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning > $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant > differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were > employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant > difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, > p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females > earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported > racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences > were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. > > Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI > help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data > demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = > 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in > the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the > NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no > participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed > at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on > annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members > earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning > $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization > earning $38,200. > > Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that > are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to > evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., > education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) > demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading > factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact > in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, > this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills > training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. > Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white > cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools > used by individuals who are blind or VI. > > The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the > employment status of participants based on the level of education that > had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further > analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or > who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those > who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; > those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; > and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of > 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the > annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = > .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high > school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; > those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a > master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral > degree earning $66,900 annually. > > When participants were asked whether they had completed training at > any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split > almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed > training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving > training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment > outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a > more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a > significant difference based on the method or type of training that > was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data > demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a > Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of > 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional > training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either > received training at home, or who received no formal skills training > were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these > individuals was examined, the data again showed significant > differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend > continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a > Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; > those who received their training at conventional centers earned an > average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no > formal training earned an average of $42,753. > > Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., > the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the > literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for > example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on > employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based > training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one > concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion > that those who return for training multiple times have significantly > less employment than those who only obtain training a single time > (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained > training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving > training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same > trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = > .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and > those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. > > More specifically, this research was interested in several specific > training variables and their impact on employment. The data > demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long > white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report > currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were > evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that > individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed > at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = > 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of > 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. > The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income > of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users > earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average > of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were > next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to > employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference > (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane > that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, > those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height > being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other? > device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, > the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings > (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users > earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning > $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. > > The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of > Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. > Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at > some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% > reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers > employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? > The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, > 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed > at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a > rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more > significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille > readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning > an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in > annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that > Braille has on employment and salary. > > Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant > impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By > combining the most salient factors together, the results show even > more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who > complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, > continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane > for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of > 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those > individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no > formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer > organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed > at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. > > Discussion > The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in > the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study > was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and > to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. > In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, > education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this > population in order to determine whether some of them could be > identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. > > The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since > this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of > rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of > 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of > demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on > employment, the following were found to be the most salient: > > a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI > are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly > similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for > this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing > research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that > there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. > b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have > access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to > dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement > planning. > c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly > equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on > average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are > consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, > 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). > d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of > employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, > such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. > e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were > employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who > affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning > $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization > tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB > members. > f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational > attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this > population, with those having graduate-level education being employed > at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, > and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. > g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively > related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured > Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning > $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based > programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These > results confirm those of Aditya (2004). > h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), > was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who > receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in > comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, > and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were > trained a single time. > i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily > mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a > significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. > j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed > at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille > readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. > k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete > training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the > NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a > rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. > l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not > trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use > a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning > only $36,000 annually. > > > Implications > The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains > extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may > help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint > and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of > competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. > Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to > have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers > and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the > benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of > these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to > make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of > the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners > should know that: > > a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment > need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment. > b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive > difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money > that one can earn. > c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to > be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. > d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good > idea. > e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes > good sense. > f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than > getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments. > > > References > Amato, S. (2009). Challenges and Solutions in Teaching Braille in an > Online-Education Model. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, > 103(2), 78-80. > > American Foundation for the Blind (2012). Adults with vision loss. > Retrieved from > http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?FolderID=2&SectionID=15&TopicID=413&Docu > mentID=4385 > > Aditya, R. N. (2004). A comparison of two orientation and mobility > certification programs. Unpublished report prepared for the > Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), Washington, DC. > > Baldwin, M. L., & Schumacher, E. J. (2002). A note on job mobility > among workers with disabilities. Industrial Relations: A Journal of > Economy & Society, 41(3), 430-441. > > Beck-Winchatz, B., & Riccobono, M. (2008). Advancing participation of > blind students in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Advances > in Space Research, 42(11), 1855-1858. doi:10.1016/j.asr.2007.05.080. > > Bennetts, C. (2003). Mentoring youth: trend and tradition. British > Journal of Guidance & Counseling, 31(1), 63-76. > doi:10.1080/0306988031000086170 > > Bell, E. C. (2010). Competitive employment for consumers who are > legally blind: A 10-year retrospective study. Journal of > Rehabilitation Research & Development, 47(2), 109-116. > doi:10.1682/JRRD.2009.08.0120 > > Bell, E. C. (2012). Mentoring transition-age youth with blindness. The > Journal of Special Education, 46(3), 170-179. > > Capella, M. (2001). Predicting earnings of vocational rehabilitation > clients with visual impairments. Journal of Rehabilitation, 67(4), > 43-47. > > Capella-McDonnall, M. (2005). Predictors of competitive employment for > blind and visually impaired consumers of vocational rehabilitation > services. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(5), 303-315. > > Cavenaugh, B. (1999). Relationship of agency structure and client > characteristics to rehabilitation services and outcomes for consumers > who are blind. Unpublished manuscript, Mississippi State University, > Rehabilitation Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low > Vision, Starkville, MS. > > Cavenaugh, B. S., Giesen, J. M., & Pierce, S. J. (2000). > Rehabilitation of visually impaired persons in separate and general > agencies. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 94(3), 133-145. > > Cavenaugh, B., Giesen, J., & Steinman, B. (2006). Contextual effects > of race or ethnicity on acceptance for vocational rehabilitation of > consumers who are legally blind. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 100(7), 425-436. > > Crudden, A., & McBroom, L. (1999). Barriers to employment: A survey of > employed persons who are visually impaired. Journal of Visual > Impairment and Blindness, 93(6), 341-350. > > Darensbourg, B. (2013). Predictors of competitive employment of VR > consumers with blindness or visual impairments. Journal of Vocational > Rehabilitation. 38(1), 29-34. doi: 10.3233/JVR-120618 > > Ferguson, R. (2001). We know who we are: A history of the blind in > challenging educational and socially constructed policies: A study in > policy archeology. San Francisco, CA: Caddo Gap. > > Fireison, C., & Moore, J. (1998). Employment Outcomes and Educational > Backgrounds of Legally Blind Adults Employed in Sheltered Industrial > Settings. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 92(11), 740-47. > > Golub, D. B. (2006). A model of successful work experience for > employees who are visually impaired: The results of a study. Journal > of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(12), 715-725. > > Hall, L. J., & McGregor, J. A. (2000). A follow-up study of the peer > relationships of children with disabilities in an inclusive school. > The Journal of Special Education, 34(3), 114-126. > > Harris, A. (2008). Messages to take away: Final reflections on > residential rehabilitation. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080216.htm > > Hershenson, D. (1998). Systemic, ecological model for rehabilitation > counseling. Rehabilitation Counseling Bulletin, 42(1), 40-50. > > Jeanmarie, K. & Strauser, D. R. (2000). Job readiness, self-efficacy > and work personality: A comparison of trainee and instructor > perceptions. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 14(1) 13-21. > > Leonard, R., D'Allura, T., & Horowitz, A. (1999). Factors associated > with employment among persons who have a vision impairment: A > follow-up of vocational placement referrals. Journal of Vocational > Rehabilitation, 12(1), 33-43. > > Marks, S., & Feeley, D. (1995). Transition in action: Michigan's > experience. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(3), 272-275. > > Martz, E., & Xu, Y. (2008). Person-related and service-related factors > predicting employment of individuals with disabilities. Journal of > Vocational Rehabilitation, 28(2), 97-104. > > Mayo, S., Allen, P. & Deden, J. (2008). A governing philosophy: > Strategies for implementing a progressive approach in a center-based > environment. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080209.htm > > Mettler, R. (2008). Cognitive learning theory and cane travel > instructors: A new paradigm (2nd ed.). Lincoln, NE: Nebraska > Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > > McDonnall, M., & Crudden, A. (2009). Factors affecting the successful > employment of transition-age youths with visual impairments. Journal > of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(6), 329-341. > > Miller, J. (2002). The Role of Orientation and Mobility Instructors > and Rehabilitation Teachers in Enhancing Employment Opportunities for > Persons Who Are Visually Impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 96(12), 852-55. > > Nagle, K. M. (2001). Transition to employment and community life for > youths with visual impairments: Current status and future directions. > Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 95(12), 725-738. > > National Blindness Professional Certification Board (2012). Structured > Discovery Cane Travel. Retrieved from > http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/sdct.php > > Omvig, J. (2002). Freedom for the Blind: The secret is empowerment. > Hot Springs, AR: Region VI Rehabilitation Continuing Education > Program, University of Arkansas Press. > > Omvig, J. (2005). The characteristics of an NFB orientation center. > Braille Monitor, 48(4). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05/bm0504/bm050403.htm > > Ozawa, M., & Yeo, Y. (2006). Work Status and Work Performance of > People With Disabilities: An Empirical Study. Journal of Disability > Policy Studies, 17(3), 180-190. doi:10.1177/10442073060170030601. > > Papadopoulos, K., & Koutsoklenis, A. (2009). Reading media used by > higher-education students and graduates with visual impairments in > Greece. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(11), 772-777. > > Phelps, A. (2005). NFB launches National Center for Mentoring > Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. > > Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes > of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of > Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. > > Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on > employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, > Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. > > Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, > income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & > Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. > > Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it > works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm > > Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment > issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & > M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). > Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. > > Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: > Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille > Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm > > Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, > families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: > American Foundation for the Blind. > > U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from > http://www.census.gov/ > > Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for > empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. > > Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment > outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation > program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. > Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social > Science, 70(4-A), 1181. > > Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). > Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development > relationships and individuals with disabilities. American > Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. > > > > Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC > > REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) > Exam > http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php > > Director, Professional Development and Research > Institute on Blindness > Louisiana Tech University > 210 Woodard Hall > PO Box 3158 > Ruston LA 71272 > Office: 318.257.4554 > Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) > Skype: edwardbell2010 > ebell at latech.edu > www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness > ******************** > "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of > Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal > talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." > -- Stephen Jay Gould > _______________________________________________ > rehab mailing list > rehab at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > rehab: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40 > gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi JJ, > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > class start? > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > > Do I need an advocate? > > Thanks, > > JJ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 > From: Cindy Bennett > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > it, but I have also gotten some. > > Cindy > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > read > > a > > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > >> RJ, > >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > > the > >> answer. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: RJ Sandefur > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >> centers > >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >> To: > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >> > Minh, > >> > > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > as an > >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > children, > >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >> > > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >> > skills > >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >> > people, > >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >> > > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > Braille, > >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > skills > >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >> > training centers are necessary. > >> > > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > polite, > >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing > >> > to > >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >> > > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > you in > >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >> > > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > advantage of > >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > >> > school, employment and life in general. > >> > > >> > Bridgit > >> > Message: 3 > >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >> > From: minh ha > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > Message-ID: > >> > > >> > > > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >> > > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > saying > >> > how > >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success > >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > these > >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > Maybe > >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of > >> > my > >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > kitchen > >> > and > >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > >> > there > >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > skills > >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > the > >> > experience. > >> > > >> > Minh > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >> ail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > > net > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi all, > > I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > and tend to get it least. > I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > exactly how. > > Arielle > > On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > > it, but I have also gotten some. > > > > Cindy > > > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > >> read > >> a > >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> > >> > >>> RJ, > >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > get > >> the > >>> answer. > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >>> centers > >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >>> To: > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> > >>> > Minh, > >>> > > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > as > >>> > an > >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > children, > >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >>> > > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >>> > skills > >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >>> > people, > >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >>> > > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people > without > >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > >>> > Braille, > >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > skills > >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >>> > training centers are necessary. > >>> > > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the > world > >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > >>> > polite, > >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > appearing > >>> > to > >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > an > >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > nature. > >>> > > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > you > >>> > in > >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > would > >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as > a > >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >>> > > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > advantage > >>> > of > >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > background, > >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > in > >>> > school, employment and life in general. > >>> > > >>> > Bridgit > >>> > Message: 3 > >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >>> > From: minh ha > >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>> > > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > Message-ID: > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >>> > > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > saying > >>> > how > >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > gain > >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > success > >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > >>> > these > >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > Maybe > >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > of > >>> > my > >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > learned > >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > of > >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; > she > >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > kitchen > >>> > and > >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too > much > >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > myself > >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't > see > >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > to > >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had > many > >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > >>> > there > >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > >>> > skills > >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > the > >>> > experience. > >>> > > >>> > Minh > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >>> ail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink. > >> net > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > >> nabs-l: > >>> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > 40gm > >> ail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Cindy Bennett > > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 > From: johnnie Jean duran > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Arielle: > Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this > situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not > required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for > me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of > participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even > met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me > was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails > in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, > I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see > another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to > them, it might change their mind. > Thank you so much Arielle! > JJ > > On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > Hi JJ, > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > class start? > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student > attending > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is > allowed > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that > I > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > >> Do I need an advocate? > >> Thanks, > >> JJ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai > l.com > > > > > -- > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > 8th Grade Student > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > the NFB. > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > Instagram: jj_duran13 > Skype: jj.duran13 > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 > From: Carly Mihalakis > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > , National Association of Blind Students > mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Hi, jJ, > > What the hell is a para? > for today, Car > 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > >Arielle: > >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this > >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not > >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for > >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of > >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even > >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me > >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails > >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, > >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see > >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to > >them, it might change their mind. > >Thank you so much Arielle! > >JJ > > > >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > > Hi JJ, > > > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot > of > > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you > should > > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your > TVI > > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you > can > > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in > the > > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does > the > > > class start? > > > > > > Arielle > > > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student > attending > > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is > allowed > > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and > the > > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me > in > > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am > good > > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting > that I > > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't > listening? > > >> Do I need an advocate? > > >> Thanks, > > >> JJ > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > m > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai > l.com > > > > > > > > >-- > >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > >8th Grade Student > >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > >the NFB. > >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > >Instagram: jj_duran13 > >Skype: jj.duran13 > >Kik: jjd_13 > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. > net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17 > ************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From sgermano at asu.edu Tue Nov 12 23:09:15 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:09:15 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <002e01cedff6$22c55670$68500350$@gmail.com> <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Let's see... 1) Employers still discriminate. This will always be the number one problem with employment. I have a lot of usable vision and still have not gotten jobs because of it. 2) Not everybody puts in enough to get value out. This happens everywhere look at all the college student who do not care about good grades. 3) You can't judge anyone else. You do not know their histories. Maybe they are still working through low self esteem. I was teased and outcast from kindergarten through 12th grade and it had a huge impact on my self esteem. I also had several professors tell me they could not imagine a job I could do. Again huge impact on my self esteem and wondering if that was true why would anyone hire me. 4) some people are just lazy and would rather do nothing and collect SSI/SSDI. Again not just blind people but all people have a segment that is lazy and would rather just do nothing. I sure there are a number of other reasons Suzanne On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 3:47 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or > they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but the > proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone > says > they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not > employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers who > sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? > Apparently > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:25 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > > > > If you attend the national convention, the training centers are highly > > toubted all week long. Though I am careful of how much of the nfb > coolaide > > I drink, and catch phrases I swallow, I've just got to give a big thumbs > up > > to our training centers. I am one of those individuals who have not had > the > > opportunity to attend one myself as of yet, but I'll just give a big > thank > > you to all of the staff who have done such a good job with the training, > and > > a congradulations to all of the fine folks who have been deamed skilled > > enough to have graduated. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bridgit > > Pollpeter > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:11 PM > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > > > > They are not teaching job skills, per say. NFB centers and good > > government centers teach the Structured Discovery Method. This method is > > taught because it allows one to apply it's application to any given > > situation. Job, school, life in general. It provides one with the tools > > and methods that can be applied to pretty much any situation. So you are > > better equipped to deal with life. > > > > Training centers were established to teach blind adults and those who > > didn't learn proper skills when younger. Few have proactive parents who > > allow their blind child to learn and explore like any other child. Many > > of these children are not taught proper skills either. Let's not forget > > that 90% of legally blind kids are not receiving Braille education, or > > it's a very lack-luster education. And when you lose your sight later in > > life, you are faced with re-learning how to do many things. Plus, you > > are now dealing with the societal perceptions that try to hold people > > back. Without positive training centers, most of us who lost sight later > > in life would flounder and find no direction. > > > > Attending a training center doesn't equate to automatic success, but > > neither does college or a new job. It's what you do with what you have. > > It's still up to an individual to attempt to achieve a goal. Training > > centers just help blind adults along in this process by providing tools > > like Braille, travel and adaptive technology and assisting many to find > > confidence so many lack when initially becoming blind. So many of you > > have been blind since birth or childhood. Imagine losing it after years > > of being sighted. It's not always an easy transition. Training centers > > have helped many make this transition. > > > > It's not the goal of centers to provide specific job skills; they teach > > skills that will help one that can be applied to most situations. > > College is a lot like this. Trust me, college will teach you > > theoreticals, but once on the job, you must apply and adapt these skills > > to practical situations. > > > > So please stop knocking what most training centers are attempting to do. > > It's great a few of you have managed to become independent and > > successful without a training center, but trust me, this is the > > exception and not the rule. And remember, schools for the blind and > > training centers for the blind are two entirely different things, and > > I'm only addressing training centers. > > > > Bridgit > > > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:18:31 -0500 > > From: "RJ Sandefur" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real > > world > > Message-ID: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > > centers > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > Minh, > > > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > > an > > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > > skills > > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > > people, > > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > Braille, > > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > > training centers are necessary. > > > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > > polite, > > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > > to > > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > > in > > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > > of > > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > > > Bridgit > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > > From: minh ha > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > > how > > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > > these > > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > > my > > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > > and > > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > > there > > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > > skills > > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > > experience. > > > > > > Minh > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:32 -0500 > > From: Kaiti Shelton > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > I think the answer to this is no, as the sighted don't usually know > > what the training centers are or what they do, but they would care if > > he can use braille or a screenreader to access a bible and complete > > his job as well as any sighted pastor. > > > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > > centers > > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > > >> Minh, > > >> > > >> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > > an > > >> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > >> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > >> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > >> > > >> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > > skills > > >> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > > people, > > >> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > >> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > >> > > >> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > >> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > Braille, > > >> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > >> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > >> training centers are necessary. > > >> > > >> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > >> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > >> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > >> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > > polite, > > >> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > > to > > >> not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > >> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > > nature. > > >> > > >> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > > in > > >> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > >> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > >> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > > would > > >> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > >> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > >> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > >> > > >> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > > of > > >> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > > background, > > >> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > >> school, employment and life in general. > > >> > > >> Bridgit > > >> Message: 3 > > >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > >> From: minh ha > > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> > > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Message-ID: > > >> > > >> > > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > >> > > >> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > > how > > >> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > >> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > >> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > >> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > > these > > >> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > >> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > > my > > >> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > >> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > >> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > >> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > > and > > >> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > >> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > > myself > > >> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > >> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > >> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > >> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > > there > > >> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > >> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > > skills > > >> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > >> experience. > > >> > > >> Minh > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > >> > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > > ail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 > > gmail.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > Kaiti > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:27:51 -0500 > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: <656D6A1FD9ED4A54A16B7F3989FD3917 at OwnerPC> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > > reply-type=original > > > > RJ, > > No your employer won't care if you went to a training center. > > But he or she will! care that you have the skills to do a job. > > You have to get to work on time, communicate with technology and more. > > So all we are saying is that there are skill benefits to going to a > > center > > and such benefits help people succeed and change lives. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RJ Sandefur > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:15 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > If Joe Blind gos for ajob interview in order to be the pastor at > > Anywhere > > baptist church, do you think thechurch is going to care weather or not > > Joe > > Blind went to Anywhere rehab center for the blind? RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > Minh, > > > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > > an > > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > > skills > > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > > people, > > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > Braille, > > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > > training centers are necessary. > > > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > > polite, > > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > > to > > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > > in > > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > > of > > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > > > Bridgit > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > > From: minh ha > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > > how > > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > > these > > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > > my > > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > > and > > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > > there > > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > > skills > > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > > experience. > > > > > > Minh > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > > ink.net > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:28:36 -0500 > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15 at OwnerPC> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > > reply-type=original > > > > RJ, > > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll get > > the > > answer. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RJ Sandefur > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > > centers > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > Minh, > > > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > > an > > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > > skills > > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > > people, > > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > Braille, > > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > > training centers are necessary. > > > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > > polite, > > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room appearing > > to > > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, an > > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human nature. > > > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > > in > > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people would > > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > > of > > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this background, > > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better in > > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > > > Bridgit > > > Message: 3 > > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > > From: minh ha > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > > how > > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to gain > > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > > these > > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years of > > my > > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I learned > > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one of > > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > > and > > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach myself > > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society to > > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > > there > > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > > skills > > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > > experience. > > > > > > Minh > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > > ink.net > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:10:53 -0600 > > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > > To: > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > It's situations like this that no training center seems equipped with. > > No system is perfect, and this extends to both private and government > > training centers for the blind. > > > > There's suppose to be field staff available for those who, for various > > reasons, can't attend in-house training. But due to budgeting, few > > receive home training, or the visits are so few and far between, it > > really isn't teaching a person much. And sadly, those determined > > ineligible for employment, stay-at-home parents, the sick, those > > mentally not able, etc., tend to be ignored altogether. I know from > > first-hand experience because I initially was very sick, which caused my > > blindness. While I recovered, I saw a VR counselor twice, and though I > > was promised home training, I never once met with someone. Once > > recovered, I attended the center in Iowa, but before this, nothing, and > > I could have benefited from some training. > > > > I had the initiative to use problem-solving skills and figure out a lot > > for myself, including cane travel, but Braille and JAWS were skills > > beyond my ability to comprehend enough to teach myself. > > > > Nonetheless, if able, attending a training center is pretty vital for > > most, though clearly there can be exceptions. And 6 to 9 months out of a > > lifetime really isn't that long, especially considering you gain a > > lifetime of independence, or are at least provided with the tools and > > resources to live independently. > > > > Having said that, being a mom, I don't know how I would manage training > > if I had to do it at this point in my life. In a perfect world, someone > > would be available to meet with people like this a few times a week to > > work on the skills, but no agency or organization is currently equipped > > for this, and most lack the funding to do so. I've unsuccessfully > > presented my local agency with the idea of a volunteer program of people > > who could provide this resource. It would be all volunteered based, > > though they would still need to prove they can accurately teach the > > skills, but this seems like a simple solution. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 9 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:56:24 -0500 > > From: "RJ Sandefur" > > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > > mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: <00b801cedefe$f59bc910$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > I agree with Joe! What about a blind adult who has just gone blind, and > > she > > has a ten year old daughter? My friend is unable to attend a training > > center > > due to her having a child. RJ > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 8 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:54 -0600 > > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > > To: > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Ashley, > > > > The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a > > major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes > > the NFB centers. > > > > Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend > > as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most > > are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough > > to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow > > people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other > > institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you > > suggest or even offer day programs. > > > > The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government > > doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or > > the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will > > not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency > > working with people with disabilities. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 15 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: , "National Association of Blind Students > > mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > > reply-type=response > > > > Tyler, > > No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one > > due to > > circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. > > It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more > > home > > based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately > > > > using your own equipment and marking them if needed. > > > > Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about > > receiving > > services from her vr agency? > > They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who > > can > > help her at home. > > Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she > > lives in > > NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there > > are > > two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. > > Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to > > find > > them. > > > > Ashley > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 9 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:30:41 -0600 > > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > > To: > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Steve, > > > > I completely agree. Without nonvisual skills, I couldn't effectively > > care for my kids. I'm safe in the knowledge that I can care for my kids > > just like anyone else, but if I lacked certain nonvisual skills, I doubt > > I could safely and effectively watch after young children. Most > > parenting is based on problem-solving and figuring out as you go along, > > but as most blind people know, there are a few things, a few tools, we > > require to make life more efficient. Most of what I do as a parent, > > hell, most of what I do as a human being, is no different than those who > > are sighted, but sometimes I rely on a different tool or method to > > achieve the same outcome. So in the long-run, yes, training will only > > enhance the parenting process, making you more efficient and confident. > > > > I am sensitive to those in this situation though. Finding child care can > > be difficult and expensive. I believe you should try your best in this > > situation, but I also understand there are parents who don't have the > > support or finances to make this easier. This is definitely a problem to > > be further explored. > > > > Bridgit > > Message: 18 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:44:42 -0600 > > From: "Steve Jacobson" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > RJ, > > > > It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > > such as that of your friend. In general, > > though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might > > mean for bringing up a child in the long > > run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > > confident independent traveler without putting in > > some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident > > traveler, for example, one is going to > > find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, > > or to be there for that child. Your > > friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > > care of the child, and there could be other > > considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to > > take training seems very short-sighted to > > me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Steve Jacobson > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 10 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:37:42 -0600 > > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > > To: > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack > > thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it > > doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly > > when written by a blind person. > > > > Bridgit > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 11 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:48:56 -0500 > > From: "RJ Sandefur" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > > read a > > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > RJ, > > > They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > > get > > the > > > answer. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: RJ Sandefur > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > > centers > > > are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > > > > Minh, > > > > > > > > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight as > > an > > > > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially children, > > > > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > > > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > > > > > > > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > > skills > > > > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > > people, > > > > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > > > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > > > > > > > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > > > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > Braille, > > > > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized skills > > > > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > > > training centers are necessary. > > > > > > > > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > > > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > > > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > > > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > > polite, > > > > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > > appearing to > > > > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > > an > > > > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > > nature. > > > > > > > > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded you > > in > > > > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > > > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > > > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > > would > > > > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > > > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > > > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > > > > > > > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the advantage > > of > > > > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > > background, > > > > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > > in > > > > school, employment and life in general. > > > > > > > > Bridgit > > > > Message: 3 > > > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > > > From: minh ha > > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > > > > > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > > how > > > > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > > gain > > > > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these success > > > > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > > > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > > these > > > > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? Maybe > > > > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > > of my > > > > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > > learned > > > > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > > of > > > > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > > > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the kitchen > > and > > > > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > > > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > > myself > > > > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > > > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > > to > > > > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > > > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > > there > > > > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > > > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > > skills > > > > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without the > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > Minh > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > > ail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > > ink. > > net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > ail.com > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 12 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:01:16 -0500 > > From: minh ha > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Kaiti brings up some excellent points that I didn't consider until > > until now. I went to public school all my life and had many > > opportunities to be an integral part of my school community. I held > > leadership positions in various clubs and was an AP student. I don't > > think there are any schools for the blind out there that could give > > their students this level of academic rigor that would prepare them > > for college life. In fact, college enrollment right out of graduation, > > which I like to point out is usually at 21 instead of the normal 17-18 > > is extremely rare if not nonexistent. As for the schools for the blind > > giving their students the chance to play sports that they wouldn't > > otherwise get in a mainstream school, I don't think that's valid at > > all. I didn't play any sports at all because I was into academics more > > than athletics, but there are sports that don't require sight such as > > cross country, swimming, wrestling, etc that mainstreamed students can > > participate in. Also, I think someone on an earlier post said that > > school districts don't care about blind students and they just want to > > ship them off to school for the blind because it's easier. That is an > > entirely pessimistic and untrue view of all school systems. I was able > > to excel in school because I had an amazing TVI as well as a wonderful > > support system from my teachers that helped me to realize my own > > potential. I think it definitely depends on the situation but I also > > think people should be more proactive in their own learning as well > > instead of waiting on others. > > > > Minh > > > > On 11/11/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > > > trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > > > parents thought and what I believe as well. > > > > > > I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > > > for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > > > manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > > > person. > > > > > > However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > > > thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > > > going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > > > used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > > > homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > > > Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > > > of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > > > wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > > > early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > > > made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > > > time. > > > > > > In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > > > state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > > > matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > > > schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > > > larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > > > addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > > > from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > > > elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > > > pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > > > case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > > > of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > > > be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > > > have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > > > miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > > > process. > > > > > > I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > > > to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > > > about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > > > sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > > > for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > > > in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > > > too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > > > organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > > > that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > > > best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > > > tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > > > field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > > > So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > > > disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > > > parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > > > the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > > > thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > > > he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > > > once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > > > Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > > > kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > > > at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > > > and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > > > without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > > > modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > > > the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > > > approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > > > one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > > > future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > > > read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > > > Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > > > I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > > > when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > > > eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > > > way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > > > totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > > > we came up with to work. > > > > > > I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > > > the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > > > although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > > > learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > > > that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > > > believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > > > and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > > > to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > > > love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > > > to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > > > misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > > > that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > > > favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > > > she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > > > up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > > > got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > > > my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > > > even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > > > teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > > > one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > > > weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > > > teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > > > ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > > > > > > I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > > > because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > > > for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > > > IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > > > communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > > > from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > > > and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > > > make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > > > schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > > > be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > > > least. > > > > > > Just my thoughts. > > > On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > > >> RJ, > > >> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever > > center > > >> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for > > her > > >> to > > >> > > >> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory > > >> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of > > dormitories, > > >> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to > > stay > > >> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend > > may > > >> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while > > she > > >> is > > >> > > >> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the > > center > > >> may > > >> > > >> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with > > her > > >> on > > >> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. > > >> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, > > but > > >> the > > >> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help > > me > > >> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity > > to > > >> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to > > attend > > >> next > > >> > > >> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to > > me > > >> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out > > so > > >> I > > >> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to > > allow > > >> me > > >> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your > > >> friend > > >> > > >> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any > > of > > >> the > > >> > > >> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with > > her on > > >> it. > > >> Thanks, > > >> Misty > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Steve Jacobson > > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM > > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> > > >> RJ, > > >> > > >> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > > >> such > > >> as that of your friend. In general, > > >> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well > > might > > >> mean > > >> > > >> for bringing up a child in the long > > >> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > > >> confident > > >> independent traveler without putting in > > >> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a > > confident > > >> traveler, for example, one is going to > > >> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to > > be, > > >> or > > >> to be there for that child. Your > > >> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > > >> care > > >> of the child, and there could be other > > >> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child > > to > > >> take > > >> > > >> training seems very short-sighted to > > >> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > > >> > > >> Best regards, > > >> > > >> Steve Jacobson > > >> > > >> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > >> > > >>>Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four > > years > > >>> ago. > > >>>Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to > > a > > >>>training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ > > >>>----- Original Message ----- > > >>>From: "minh ha" > > >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >>> > > >>>Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM > > >>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> > > >> > > >>>All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > > >>>how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > > >>>gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > > >>>success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > > >>>employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > > >>>and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > > >>>centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > > >>>first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired > > over > > >>>the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > > >>>up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > > >>>experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > > >>>played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, > > >>>etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to > > >>>learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to > > teach > > >>>me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > > >>>remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain > > >>>employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > > >>>because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > > >>>potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I > > can > > >>>learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > > >>>going to do me any good without the experience. > > >> > > >>>Minh > > >> > > >>>On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: > > >>>> Hi all, > > >>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. > > >>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) > > is > > >>>that > > >>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in > > skills > > >>>> that > > >>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their > > >>>classmates. > > >>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are > > adapted > > >>>> for > > >>>the > > >>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not > > always > > >>>readily > > >>>> available . > > >>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that > > will > > >>>help > > >>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and > > succeed > > >>>> in > > >>>the > > >>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that > > enable > > >>>> us > > >>>to > > >>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only > > can we > > >>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this > > >>>> should > > >>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. > > >>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning > > >>>environments > > >>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that > > generally > > >>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real > > world > > >>>> in > > >>>a > > >>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave > > you > > >>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. > > >>>> Darian > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > >>>> nabs-l: > > >>>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c > > om > > >>>> > > >> > > >> > > >>>-- > > >>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the > > dusty > > >>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > > >>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > > >>>their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > >> > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>nabs-l mailing list > > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>>nabs-l: > > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandef > > ur%40gm > > >>>ail.com > > >> > > >> > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>nabs-l mailing list > > >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >>>nabs-l: > > >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40 > > visi.com > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmai > > l.com > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40 > > gmail.com > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Kaiti > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.c > > om > > > > > > > > > -- > > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 13 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:15:34 -0600 > > From: "Loren Wakefield" > > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > Message-ID: <011401cedf33$ece7e670$c6b7b350$@mediacombb.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Peter, > > > > Pls write me offlist. I have some questions for you that I've been told > > you have excellent info on. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter > > Donahue > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:21 PM > > > > Theweird1 at mediacombb.net > > > > Loren Wakefield > > > > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Good evening everyone, > > > > He may have been thinking of Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael > > California. Recall that a resolution was adopted during this year's > > national convention concerning their treatment of their blind employees > > and other practices. They've had a checkered history over the years. One > > area in which they could have excelled in is training and hiring blind > > guide dog instructors something an NFB-run guide dog program would do. > > We all ready have blind cane travel instructors so why not full-fledged > > blind guide dog trainers and class instructors. To date no guide dog > > program including The Seeing Eye has trained and hired blind persons as > > guide dog instructors. > > > > Several years ago I and a few other NAGDU Members drafted The Guide > > Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights. This document outlined what we in the NFB > > believe to be the rights of guide dog consumers and if adopted by our > > guide dog programs would have changed many of the demeaning and > > custodial policies all too common to these outfits. To the best of my > > knowledge none of our guide dog schools have signed on to the Guide Dog > > Consumer's Bill of Rights. > > If anything they've tried to water it down. So far the NFB has resisted > > their efforts. You can find it on the NAGDU and NFB Web Sites or search > > for the term "Guide Dog Consumer's Bill of Rights." You'll find in that > > document many of the things an NFB-run guide dog program would > > implement. Hope this will begin to start answering some of your > > questions. > > > > Peter Donahue > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 7:36 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > > > Hannah, > > Josh said guiding eyes was a good school. you confused remarks. > > He said the school in Ca was not the greatest and I have no clue which > > school this is although I plan to find out. > > > > Its good you did not meet unruly guide dogs but I have although many > > teams > > are fine. > > I would hope if dogs misbehave that the handler takes steps to train him > > or > > her better. They know what to do to correct their dog. > > But every team is different and some will be a bad pair giving the whole > > dog user group a bad representation. > > > > I hope Lizzy makes the right decision for her and her new four legged > > animal > > given the advice so far. > > I can understand why dog users would say what they say to her. Its her > > decision and only she will know if the dog can handle the new > > environment > > and stress. I hope it?s the right decision. > > > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Hannah Chadwick > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 8:09 PM > > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Ashley and Josh, > > Just so you know. Guiding Eyes is not in CA. I've heard a lot of great > > things about them and what it really boils down to is, you get out what > > you > > put in. this means that the amount of time, effort, and work you put in > > to > > your dog is what really matters. The school will give you tools and > > address > > many issues, but there will be new things that come up all the time. if > > you > > guys prefer the cane, that' is totally fine, but since either of you has > > never gone to a training program, I'd really appreciate it if you don't > > judge schools. Guide dogs are really expensive tools and are given to us > > free of charge. For that, I think all of us should be truly grateful. I > > strongly believe that all the schools do their best to train their > > guides > > and of course there are good teams as well as those that are not so > > great. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > > Bramlett > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 3:28 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > I've heard good things about guiding eyes too. > > AS you said josh, its also a school thing. Some schools train their > > teams > > better than others. > > I've seen great dog teams, even at crowded state conventions, and bad > > teams. > > It's a matter of the training and also the dog handler's responsibility > > to > > correct bad behavior. Responsible dog handlers do this and also reward > > the > > dog too. > > > > Josh, if you want a dog, just go to a school with the standards you > > want, > > not the one in CA. > > You could also seek out great dog teams and see where they got training. > > Judy Dickson and some of the employees working at NLS have great well > > behaved dogs. > > In fact dogs are so quiet and still you would not know they are at that > > cubicle. > > > > They do not make messes. > > They do not sniff excessively. > > And, no they do not get excited contrary to what Tyler said. They met > > new > > people all the time and still acted like guide dogs. > > > > > > Now, I'd love to meet Julie and her dog. Perhaps I will if I make it to > > national convention. > > > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joshua Lester > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 5:59 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Hi Julie. > > You're one of the best guide dog handlers I've observed in conventions. > > I wish everyone else that I was around was as responsible as you are! > > The school you trained at is wonderful, as well! > > All of my friends, who are guide dog users got them from Guiding Eyes. > > This one school in CA has ruined the perception of guide dogs for > > everyone, > > and that's why I'm addressing these issues, because this school has > > turned > > me against getting one for myself, if that's how they're going to act. > > Too bad there's not a Guiding Eyes school in Arkansas, affiliated with > > your > > school! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Julie McGinnity > > [kaybaycar at gmail.com] > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:52 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > Hi all, > > > > I agree with Tyler here, and I also think that the fact that Lizzy is > > worried about offending people with her dog, is considering her dog's > > behavior, and is planning ahead by attempting to get advice from us > > means that she is a responsible dog handeler. Let's not make > > judgements about her and how she lets her dog behave. I went on > > college visits when I was a senior in high school, and my dog dealt > > well with it. Yes, I had a new dog, and like Lizzy, I worried about > > how the dog would handle the new situation. But my dog enjoyed the > > challenge of a new environment and settled quickly when she realized > > we had to sit in a classroom and be calm like we did in high school. > > Your dog, Lizzy, will most likely do the same. > > > > As for what behaviors are acceptable, that is up to the handler, but > > most handlers don't want their dogs distracted by even sniffing > > people, let alone barking or jumping. Remember that these dogs guide > > us around objects, stop at stairs for us, and observe traffic while we > > are in the streets. Having a dog is a serious thing, and allowing it > > to be distracted can be dangerous. I have faith that the majority of > > dog handlers do the best they can. The school teaches us how > > important this is after all. > > > > Another point, and I'll stop procrastinating. :) I do not anticipate > > being lonely or jobless because I have a dog. I am dedicated to my > > dog's training, and when I get my next dog, it will continue. The > > reality of having a new dog is that the dog's behavior will be a > > little unpredictable at times, and most people will accept this; if > > they don't, I say they probably weren't going to accept you with a dog > > no matter how good the behavior. Part of the new dog issue is the > > bond that hasn't quite formed between handler and dog, and the other > > part is that using a guide dog is new. At least, for Lizzy it is. > > But Lizzy, you went to training, and I believe you are responsible and > > intelligent. You understand what the dog's bad behavior means to > > others, and if you know how to control it successfully(which I'm sure > > you do), I believe you could have a very positive experience with a > > dog at this college visit. > > > > On 11/10/13, Joshua Lester wrote: > > > Great post, Ashley! > > > Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or > > > roam > > > around the room, when not being handled? > > > That has happened way too much where I'm from! > > > Train them correctly, and expect them to act right! > > > You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in > > dog, > > > (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the > > > Blind! > > > Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, > > because > > > that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got > > them! > > > That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs! > > > Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended! > > > Blessings, Joshua > > > ________________________________________ > > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett > > > [bookwormahb at earthlink.net] > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > > > Mark, > > > I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again. > > > I have been offended by disruptive guide dogs. > > > I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would > > have > > > no > > > problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people > > or > > > exhibit other behavior she mentioned. > > > I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay > > there. > > > > > > You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but > > > when > > > you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you > > > might > > > think again. > > > > > > I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them > > in > > > public places. However, I think with legal rights comes > > responsibility. > > > You > > > have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving > > like a > > > working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and > > should > > > I > > > mention barks? > > > Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. > > But to > > > what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional > > setting > > > before saying enough is enough? It's a hard line to draw. With rights > > > comes > > > responsibility. > > > I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to > > have > > > a > > > guide dog. > > > > > > Ashley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mark J. Cadigan > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of > > Guide > > > Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are > > > themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw > > from > > > when giving advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. > > I > > > would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact > > I > > > have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people > > say > > > about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting > > > accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would > > definitely do > > > so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but > > to > > > get > > > an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a > > > student. > > > > > > > > > > > > My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there > > problem > > > and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide > > dog, > > > and > > > if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being > > > said, > > > you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you > > should > > > stand your ground, and never back down on your rights. > > > > > > > > > > > > The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with > > > someone > > > while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no > > clue > > > what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog > > on > > > the > > > college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and > > not > > > let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but > > they > > > are > > > just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Feel free to email me off list > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "lizzy" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM > > > Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit > > > > > > > > >> Hi All, > > >> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but > > now I > > >> am in need of some help. I am currently a senior in high school > > going > > >> not > > >> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it > > is at > > >> my number one choice school. To all of the guide dog users, I've had > > my > > >> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided > > about > > >> if > > >> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip. My > > reasons > > >> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a > > lot > > >> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about). > > I've > > >> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty > > simple (a > > >> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for > > this or > > >> not (since I'll be all over campus). Also, her behavior is slightly > > >> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and > > she is > > >> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't > > make > > >> her look like a trained dog). I will be sitting in on a class, doing > > an > > >> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a > > current > > >> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs > > or > > >> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it. > > I > > >> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think > > I'll > > >> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours. But is > > >> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about > > the > > >> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be > > >> greatly appreciated. > > >> Thanks, > > >> Lizzy > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > > ink. > > net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae > > du.o > > nmicrosoft.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co > > m > > > > > > > > > -- > > Julie McG > > National Association of Guide dog Users board member, National > > Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, > > Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President, > > and Guiding Eyes for the Blind graduate 2008 > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > > life." > > John 3:16 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuae > > du.o > > nmicrosoft.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > > ink. > > net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklylicious%40gma > > il.c > > om > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > > ink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr. > > com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/theweird1%40mediacom > > bb.net > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 14 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:22 -0500 > > From: "Joe" > > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: <007101cedf36$d50c3c60$7f24b520$@gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Great comments all around. The only thing I would add from my > > perspective is > > that one needs to be blunt with oneself to determine whether or not they > > could benefit from making a training center a priority. I think everyone > > could benefit from going to one. Some may even benefit from going back, > > but > > you have to go for yourself. Part of the reason why I rejected the idea > > of > > going to a training is the NFB peer pressure that if I did not go to a > > Center, I would never fully reach my full potential. That sort of > > thinking > > drove me nutty, and by nature, I set out to prove them wrong. But, I'd > > also > > put this nonsense aside and asked myself whether taking time off school > > was > > in my best interest. Could I learn enough for the returns to be worth > > the > > investment? The answer still came back in the negative, so I did not > > enroll. > > But, I fell back on the high expectations of strict parents. In the > > Latino > > culture, or at least in my Latino household, if I didn't pull my fair > > share > > around the house, I was spanked. Simple as that. At school I drew a > > vision > > teacher who had the worse reputation in our district for being a > > stickler. I > > love that lady to no end for being such a hard ass during my high school > > years. As far as O&M, I remember one day in seventh grade I got so fed > > up > > with navigating the Galleria, one of Houston's massive malls. I threw > > down > > my cane and actually began to cry like a little baby. My O&M instructor > > came > > over, asked what was the deal. We talked about it. I got back up and > > found > > the damned hotel registration desk I'd been sent to find on the other > > side > > of the complex. The only thing I regret is not having had the sleep > > shade > > training. I got to what I think could be the same level of confidence as > > those who underwent this style of training. But, I took the scenic route > > to > > get there. So, in some ways you could argue my own logic about returns > > could > > be flawed. My point is, go for yourself, not for anyone else, and set > > specific goals. Not everyone needs to be a whiz in the kitchen. Not > > everyone > > needs to excel at computers. I don't much care for some opinions that > > you > > have to do everything well to be truly independent. That's bogus and > > deprives us of the same natural individuality that exists among our > > sighted > > peers. I think some of the blind instructors at our training centers > > could > > do with something like a sabbatical outside of the blindness field to > > take a > > break, brush up on new skills and bring back a fresh perspectives on the > > challenges you can't fully stay on top of if your world is living and > > breathing a blindness independence philosophy. > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 15 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:01:26 -0700 > > From: johnnie Jean duran > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > > > -- > > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > > 8th Grade Student > > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > > the NFB. > > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > > Instagram: jj_duran13 > > Skype: jj.duran13 > > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 16 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:03:58 -0700 > > From: "Zachary N. Griego-Dreicer" > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Cc: "nabs-l at nfbnet.org" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help with self-advocacy because of a teacher. > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > > Your message stopped after the partial sentence "I have cooked food > > before and? "Also call me I need to talk to you. > > > > Sent from my iPhone 5S Using VoiceOver > > > > > On Nov 11, 2013, at 5:01 PM, johnnie Jean duran > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student gets to > > > change there 1-tri long electives that they've picked. So, basically, > > > we get different classes. The class I have decided to choose was > > > cooking (Family and Consumer Science), I chose this class because I > > > was attempting to find a class in which I can participate in > > > independently. I have cooked food before, and > > > > > > -- > > > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > > > 8th Grade Student > > > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > > > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > > > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > > > the NFB. > > > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > > > Instagram: jj_duran13 > > > Skype: jj.duran13 > > > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zdreicer%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 17 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 > > From: johnnie Jean duran > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > > Do I need an advocate? > > Thanks, > > JJ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 18 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:56 -0700 > > From: Arielle Silverman > > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > Subject: [nabs-l] [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult > > Rehabilitation and Employment Survey:Final Results > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > > > This is the research report I was talking about. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Edward Bell > > Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 08:33:25 -0500 > > Subject: [rehab] Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and > > Employment Survey:Final Results > > To: NOMCT Committee , NOMC > > mailing list , nclb at lists.nbpcb.org, > > pibe-division at nfbnet.org, Rehab Mailing list > > > > Blind and Visually Impaired Adult Rehabilitation and Employment > > Survey:Final Results > > > > By Edward C. Bell, Ph.D. and Natalia M. Mino > > > > > > Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., serves as director of the Professional > > Development and Research Institute on Blindness, Louisiana Tech > > University. > > > > > > > > Abstract > > Individuals who are legally blind or visually impaired in the United > > States have long suffered high rates of unemployment. The purpose of > > this study was to determine the current employment status of these > > individuals and to analyze its consistency with federal reports. The > > study also examined demographic factors, education, civic involvement, > > and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to > > determine whether some of the factors could be identified as > > contributing to the employment outcomes. Results showed that the > > employment rate for individuals who are legally blind/visually > > impaired is 37%, which is consistent with previous research. Findings > > show that a gender gap still exists, with a significant difference in > > annual earnings between men and women. Education and > > rehabilitation-related factors seemed to impact employment outcomes; > > where higher educational attainment is associated with better > > employment outcomes. In addition, those individuals who were trained > > under the Structured Discovery approach were more likely to be > > employed and to have higher earnings than those who did not. Finally, > > for individuals who read Braille on a weekly basis and used a white > > cane, the likelihood of being employed and receiving higher earnings > > was higher than those who did not use these tools. > > > > > > > > Keywords > > Rehabilitation Research, Employment Outcomes, Education, training > > centers, Braille, Cane Travel; Structured Discovery > > > > > > > > Adult Rehabilitation and Employment Survey > > This study sought to describe the current employment status of > > individuals who are blind and visually impaired (VI) in the U.S. and > > to examine its consistency with federal reports. In addition, it > > explored those factors that might have an impact on employment status > > for this section of the population. In order to do so, a summary of > > the most current federal data is included, followed by a review of the > > literature that analyze the employment situation of people with > > disabilities in the U.S. and, more specifically, those factors related > > to an increase in employment outcomes by blind and VI individuals. > > > > Employment Status of Blind and VI Individuals: Federal Reports > > The 2010 U.S. Census reports that the total population in the United > > States is 308,746,538. According to the provisional report for the > > 2010 National Health Interview Survey, 21.5 million American adults > > age 18 and older reported experiencing vision loss (defined as > > individuals who reported that they have trouble seeing, even when > > wearing glasses or contact lenses, as well as those who reported that > > they are blind or unable to see at all). By December 2011, the Bureau > > of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that approximately 2 million > > individuals from 16 to 64 years old were identified as having vision > > loss according to the Current Population Survey (CPS) for all working > > age adults (16 to 64 years of age). Of them, 63.6% were not in the > > civilian labor force (i.e., those who were identified as "not in the > > labor force" were not actively looking for work during the reported > > month, and thus not included in the unemployment rate, even though > > they were not employed as well). Of the 36.4% who were in the labor > > force, 13.8% were unemployed. However, the employment to population > > ratio showed that of the 2 million working age adults with vision > > loss, only 31.3% were employed (American Foundation for the Blind, > > 2012). These data are similar to that of Bell (2010) who reported that > > by 2007, only 37% of adults who were legally blind exiting the > > vocational rehabilitation (VR) system were achieving competitive > > employment. > > > > The present study analyzed how the above reports are reflected in the > > current employment situation of blind and VI individuals. And, more > > importantly, whether specific rehabilitation, education, and/or civic > > factors could be identified that might be indicative of increased > > employment. > > > > Disability, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System > > In the pursuit of employment, each person, especially those with > > significant disabilities, has to navigate a whole host of social > > services, institutions, and processes that are aimed at assisting them > > in achieving their vocational goals. These include the state-federal > > VR process (Schriner, 2001; Schroeder, 2000); public financial > > support, such as Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) and > > Supplemental Security Income (SSI) (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005); and an > > entire array of education and employment preparation institutions > > (Amato, 2009; Hershenson, 1998; Jeanmarie & Strauser, 2000). For those > > who have successfully achieved employment, these social systems > > worked, in some form or fashion, to facilitate success. While for many > > others, these same systems have served as a land minefield, with > > continual road blocks, delays, and dead ends. > > > > The most commonly reported research in the area of employment outcomes > > comes from secondary analysis of existing databases, such as the RSA > > VR closure system, to identify variables that correlate with > > employment outcomes. For example, Randolph (2004) found that > > disability status was the variable that presented the strongest > > negative correlation with employment. The author determined that > > disability status was a strong negative predictor of employment, > > particularly of being competitively employed. He found that females > > with a disability, who were less educated and who had young children, > > were less likely to be employed. > > > > A study by Ozawa and Yeo (2006) compared the employment outcomes of > > individuals with mild and severe disabilities with those having no > > disability (it is important to notice that of the factors that the > > authors used to classify individuals into mild or severe disability > > groups, the use of a wheelchair, white cane, or similar aid for more > > than 6 months was one of the most relevant). The results showed that > > the rate of employment was inversely related to the degree of > > disability. From the group of respondents with no disability 83.04% > > were employed, while those in the mild disabilities group and the > > severe disabilities group were employed at 69.94% and 51.54% > > respectively. These authors found, as did Randolph (2004), that > > disability affects two main aspects of work performance: the > > likelihood of working and monthly earnings. The probabilities of > > working were significantly less for respondents with severe > > disabilities than for those with mild or with no disability. Monthly > > earnings of both respondents with mild disabilities and with severe > > disabilities were lower than those of people with no disability. > > According to Baldwin and Schumacher (2002), not only the chances of > > obtaining a job and earnings are negatively correlated to disability > > status, but also job mobility. Workers with disabilities were more > > likely to experience involuntary job changes than nondisabled workers. > > > > Martz and Xu (2008) analyzed the demographic and service-related > > predictors of employment among individuals with disabilities who > > received VR services and who exited from a state-federal system in a > > U.S. southern state. Having a sample composed of clients who received > > VR services from the Tennessee Division of the Rehabilitation Services > > (TDRS) during the years of 1998-2004, this study showed that those > > individuals with learning disabilities had the highest employment rate > > (93.3%) and the ones that presented the lowest employment rate were > > individuals with visual disabilities (78.7%). For this later group, > > gender and age were significant predictors of employment outcome, with > > women being less likely to be employed. > > > > The next section summarizes findings on predictors of employment > > specifically for the blind and VI population. > > > > Blindness, Employment, and the Vocational Rehabilitation System > > Warren-Peace (2009) analyzed outcomes and predictors of employment and > > the differences between clients who were legally blind and clients > > with other disabilities. With this framework, the RSA-911 data for > > Fiscal Year 2007 was used. Results showed that approximately 34% of > > consumers with legal blindness were closed competitively, while 29.5% > > of individuals in this same group were closed in non-competitive > > employment (i.e., homemaker and unpaid family worker). This is in > > sharp contrast to other disability groups, where non-competitive > > employment was only 1.5%. Of the total of noncompetitive closures, > > clients who were legally blind represented 43.6%. This suggested that > > out of the 19 disability types included in this study, just the > > legally blind group accounted for a significant amount of the total of > > noncompetitive closures in FY 2007. > > > > According to the literature, there are several factors that predict > > employment for the blind and VI. Among them, educational level, age, > > training in blindness skills, and visual status remain consistent > > across the research studies. Leonard, D'Allura, and Horowitz (1999) > > found that both achieving a higher educational level and attending an > > integrated school setting for most of one?s schooling was associated > > with being employed. In addition, the use of printed material as a > > primary reading medium, employment related skills (computer, typing, > > and use of public transportation), psychosocial variables (overall > > satisfaction with social contact and receipt of encouragement from > > family and friends), vision rehabilitation service, and technology > > training were associated with being employed. In relation to those > > factors that predicted employment in higher level positions, they > > identified higher level of education, technology training, orientation > > and mobility (O&M) training, and fewer hours of rehabilitation > > teaching. > > > > In addition to the receipt of education services that resulted in a > > certificate or degree, Capella-McDonnall (2005) concluded that having > > worked since the onset of the disability, the reason for applying to > > rehabilitation for services, and a high-quality relationship between > > the client and rehabilitation counselor were the greatest predictors > > of an employment outcome. In contrast, McDonnall and Crudden (2009) > > concluded that an involvement with the VR counselor was not associated > > with employment. In this later study, the results showed that work > > experience, academic competence, self-determination, use of assistive > > technology, and locus of control were all significant predictors of > > employment in transition-age youth with blindness. Cavenaugh, Giesen, > > and Steinman (2006) also found that the education level reached and > > the age at the time of application, followed by the presence of a > > secondary disability, and race/ethnicity were strong predictors of > > employment. > > > > Regarding visual status, Leonard et al (1999) found that this factor > > had an important impact on employment outcomes, since those > > individuals who were blind were more likely to be employed in higher > > level positions than those who were partially sighted. A study by > > Darensbourg (2013) also revealed that the severity of vision loss was > > a statistically significant predictor of competitive employment > > outcomes, however, in this study those consumers with lesser vision > > loss where more likely to be competitively employed. On the other > > hand, the study of Cavenaugh et al (2006) showed that the severity of > > the disability was the strongest predictor of acceptance for VR > > services. > > > > The results of the study conducted by Warren-Peace (2009) revealed > > that the likelihood of obtaining competitive employment after > > receiving services from VR was greater for those consumers who were > > legally blind without a secondary disability; were male; African > > American, Hispanic, or Multiple race/ethnicity; had a personal income > > as a primary source of support at application; and attained a special > > education certificate or college degree. As well as visual status, > > Darensbourg (2013) found that the variables that were the most > > statistically significant predictors of competitive employment > > outcomes for individuals with blindness or visually impairment were > > weekly earnings at application, source of referral (self-referral), > > gender (male), and not receiving Medicaid. > > > > Besides predicting competitive employment, some of the factors > > mentioned so far also predicted higher earnings. For consumers with > > visual impairments who were competitively employed through the > > state-federal VR system during Fiscal Year 1997, Capella (2001) > > concluded that age, educational level, and case expenditures were some > > of the factors accounting for differences in earnings. Of these three, > > age was the most significant predictor; clients with visual > > impairments that were older tended to receive lower earnings. > > Education also had impact on earnings, since the higher the level of > > education, the higher the earnings. Finally, some of the variance in > > earnings was explained by case expenditures, whereby the greater > > amount of money that was spent on a case, the higher the earnings at > > closure was for consumers. > > > > An additional factor that seemed to have a significant impact on > > employment outcomes and earnings for individuals who were blind and VI > > was the type of agency (separated or combined/general) that served > > these clients. Cavenaugh, Giesen, and Pierce (2000) concluded that the > > mean earnings at closure of legally blind consumers were significantly > > higher in separate agencies than in combined agencies. In addition, > > Warren-Peace (2009) found that the type of agency seemed to be a > > relevant predictor of competitive employment outcomes. Those consumers > > who received services from a separate agency for the blind had more > > chances to be closed in an integrated work setting. Capella (2001), > > however, found that the type of agency that served these clients was > > not a significant factor impacting on earnings. > > > > >From a different perspective, Golub (2006) studied the factors that > > contributed to successful work experiences for employees from the > > perspective of their employers. This study revealed that, according to > > the employers, important factors included employee being comfortable > > with his/her disability, being an ambassador for blindness by > > eliminating awkwardness in relationships, and insisting on being held > > to the same standard as his/her coworkers. In addition, this study > > found that the key to success for employees was skills of blindness. > > He/she should possess updated O&M, Braille and assistive technology > > skills, and a variety of strategies to cope in case a system fails. > > Furthermore, during interviews candidates should demonstrate their > > competence and have specific ideas for how to manage the details of > > the work and transportation challenges. > > > > The literature also accounts for studies that have analyzed those > > factors that are considered barriers for employment. Crudden and > > McBroom (1999) for example, found that attitudes of employers and the > > general public, transportation problems, and a lack of access to > > print, adaptive equipment, and accommodations were the most relevant. > > Visual status also seemed to play a role when analyzing barriers to > > employment since individuals who were partially sighted had more > > issues with transportation than those who were totally blind. Those > > who were blind as opposed to VI, however, had more problems with the > > skills or attitudes of rehabilitation counselors or placement staff. > > When asked about the most important thing the rehabilitation counselor > > did to help the participants to find employment, they mentioned help > > in locating jobs, arranging interviews, and providing job references; > > provision of education and training or equipment; and provision of > > counseling and emotional support. However, of the total sample, only > > 39% of the participants believed that VR services helped them to > > obtain their jobs. The rest of them believed that rehabilitation > > services helped them to improve their performances, that the services > > made them more competitive with those nondisabled workers, and that > > the services helped them to maintain their jobs. > > > > Finally, Bell (2010) offers one of the most current analyses on the > > competitive employment rates for VR consumers who were legally blind. > > Results from fiscal year 1997 to 2007 (obtained by using the RSA-911 > > data system) showed an average employ?ment rate of 31.79%, which was > > significantly higher than the 25.1% reported by Cavenaugh (1999) based > > on data from FY 1995. In fact, the Competitive Consumer Rates have > > shown a steady climb from 27% in 1997 up to a high of 37% in 2007. In > > addition, earnings of consumers had also increased. Some of the > > factors that seemed to impact employment outcomes were gender, race, > > education, and veteran status. Results demonstrated that men earned > > $0.63 more an hour than women in 1997, and this increased by 2007 to a > > $0.86 difference on average. In addition, while the average spread > > between earnings was about $6.00 in 1997, the variability in earnings > > had increased to nearly $12 for men but only $8 for women. On the > > other hand, Native Americans had less employment in 1997 than the > > other racial groups, and this group remained substantially behind by > > 2007. Asian/Pacific Islanders earned the highest average wages and > > Black/African Americans earned the lowest average hourly rates. Those > > with a master?s degree or higher had almost a 40% greater chance of > > being employed and had $4.00 an hour more in earnings than did > > individuals with less than a high school degree. In addition, American > > veterans were underrepresented in the RSA-911 data system, and where > > they were identified the rates of employment were 19%. > > > > White cane for mobility. When analyzing the impact of using a cane and > > having received O&M training on employment outcomes, this factor > > appears to be important when obtaining a job in higher level positions > > (Leonard et al 1999). In addition, from the perspective of employers, > > having O&M skills was a factor that contributed to successful work > > experiences for employees (Golub, 2006). In his literature review, > > Miller (2002) addresses the important role that both O&M instructors > > and rehabilitation teachers have as employment resources. They not > > only provide the training that leads to employment but since they > > spend more time with the consumers than the counselor in a > > community-based setting, they have the chance to explore a consumer?s > > vocational interests and complement the rehabilitation counselor?s > > job. > > > > As it is well known in the field of O&M, there are two main > > philosophical approaches that outline two different training methods: > > the conventional approach and the alternative approach or Structured > > Discovery Cane Travel (SDCT) (Omvig, 2005). SDCT instructional service > > offers to individuals who are blind or VI the opportunity to learn > > independence and build self-confidence in a meaningful and permanent > > approach. SDCT is rooted on non-visual techniques, problem- solving > > skills, and confidence-building learning experiences (National > > Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). It is based on > > experiential learning and it remains neutral regarding the > > instructor?s perceptual experience, transferring the focus on the > > instructor?s vision to the cognitive processes that are involved in an > > orientation and mobility lesson. The success of cane travel depends > > upon the way in which the student is able to cognitively process the > > information (Mettler, 2008). SDCT also applies principles of the > > Socratic questioning, (i.e., the asking of strategic questions to > > guide the learner in solving the problem autonomously), and strongly > > relies on the role modeling of non-visual techniques, which encourages > > the discrediting of public misconceptions about blindness (National > > Blindness Professional Certification Board, 2012). > > > > The literature is not extensive about the effectiveness of the > > different types of O&M training that those individuals who are blind > > or VI receive and their impact on employment outcomes. However, in his > > study, Aditya (2004) made an attempt to evaluate the effectiveness of > > the SDCT approach. The author hypothesized that because of the > > philosophical and methodological differences between the conventional > > and alternative approaches related to functional independence, > > individuals trained in the alternative approach will score higher on a > > measure of functional independence than those trained in the > > conventional approach. In this survey the data about the method of > > training was not directly obtained, however, it was replaced by > > examining the variable of cane size, given that the ?NFB? canes are > > employed almost exclusively in the alternative approach, while the > > shorter, folding, aluminum or graphite canes are predominately > > utilized in conventional programs. Therefore, the item of cane size > > was recoded into a dichotomous variable to reflect the two training > > approaches. The descriptive statistics revealed that the differences > > were in the expected direction. The within-group variances between > > those who were trained in the alternative approach and those who were > > trained in the conventional approach were noticeably different. Aditya > > (2004) reported that individuals who were trained with a long, white > > cane had significantly higher ability and activity in matters of > > independent living. > > > > Braille. One of the most cited studies in the field conducted by Ryles > > (1996) revealed that reading Braille was one main skill that > > predicted, for congenitally legally blind adults, higher employment > > rates and higher education levels than reading print as original > > medium. The main results showed that those individuals that utilized > > Braille as their primary reading medium had a significantly lower > > unemployment rate (44%) that those who utilize print as the original > > reading medium. The author affirmed that even though reading Braille > > as a primary medium did not increase an individual?s opportunities for > > employment, those who learned Braille when they were children and used > > Braille extensively as their primary reading medium, were employed at > > a higher rate. However, those who learned Braille after using print > > did not have a higher employment rate than those who never read > > Braille. According to Golub (2006), employers believed that possessing > > updated Braille skills represented an important factor that > > contributed to successful work experiences for their employees. > > > > Papadopoulos and Koutsoklenis (2009) conducted a study with higher > > education Greek students and graduates who were VI in order to explore > > the use of different reading media. They found out that the most > > significant predictors of the frequency of use of Braille were visual > > status, age at the loss of sight, and training in Braille. > > Specifically, the frequency of use of Braille declined with the > > increase in the age at which sight was lost, but increased with > > training in Braille. The authors concluded that a well-established > > tendency to use technology could lead to a further decline in the > > frequency of Braille use in Greece. For this reason they stated that > > efforts should be made to enhance the use of Braille, and since in > > Greece the frequency of Braille use decreases with the increase in age > > at time of loss, they recommended the development of intensive Braille > > courses for people who become visually impaired at a later age. > > > > Little agreement exists over the type, nature, intensity, structure, > > and model of training that is most effective (Ryles, 2008). Some > > training models report that the learning of Braille is a requirement > > for all individuals who enter the program (Mayo, Allen, & Deden, 2008) > > while others report that only 20% of individuals attending training > > elect to learn Braille (Ponchillia & Durant, 1996). It is commonly > > reported that 85% of adults who read Braille are employed (Ryles, > > 1996; Spungin, 1990), yet disagreement still rages over what > > constitutes best practice for the teaching of Braille. > > > > Consumer and civic involvement. Existing literature has demonstrated > > the key role that family support plays in sustaining effective > > outcomes (Bennetts, 2003; Whelley, Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & > > Christ, T., 2003). The role of advisors, peers, and other peer-to-peer > > interactions has also been cited as important in the rehabilitation > > process (Hall & McGregor, 2000; Whelley, et al., 2003). Both formal as > > well as informal models of mentoring have been demonstrated as > > effective mediators in education, employment, and career decision > > making (Bell, 2012; Hall & McGregor, 2000; Marks & Feeley, 1995). > > Community and civic participation, such as religious affiliation, > > social clubs, and civic organizations, further help to support > > interest and engagement in employment (Nagle, 2001; Vaughn & Omvig, > > 2005). Finally, specifically for members of the target population, > > self-reports and anecdotal evidence suggest that membership in a > > consumer organization is an essential element in the rehabilitation > > process (Beck-Winchatz & Riccobono, 2008; Omvig, 2005; Phelps, 2005). > > However, the stories of many individuals who are blind tell of > > families who were over protective (Omvig, 2002), of communities that > > put up restrictions (Ferguson, 2001), and of support groups that > > promoted unemployment and dependence (Vaughn & Omvig, 2005). What > > research needs to accomplish is to tease out how these factors serve > > as facilitators rather than deterrents so that training and education > > can impact greater growth and evolution. > > > > Crudden and McBroom (1999) conducted a study that demonstrated that > > among the reasons participants thought they were successful in > > overcoming barriers to employment was the importance of developing > > networking and mentoring opportunities. Role models appeared to be a > > relevant variable in maintaining motivation. They serve as examples to > > others and provide helpful insight on how to address some of the > > employment barriers. According to participants in this study, > > rehabilitation providers usually do not encourage mentoring > > opportunities or contact with role models who are visually impaired. > > The authors stated that referrals to consumer organizations could > > assist those who seek employment in generating support systems. > > > > Even though there is a lack of empirical studies about the impact of a > > consumer affiliation on employment outcomes, there are sufficient > > testimonies of blind individuals who express the opinion that their > > involvement in a consumer organization changed their lives completely. > > Omvig (2002) stated the NFB has been a key in his life and the lives > > of many blind individuals. He emphasizes the importance that competent > > and successful blind people who are part of this organization have as > > positive role models. These role models are the living proof that with > > proper training and opportunity, blind people can live normal, > > successful, and meaningful lives. And this is what they pass along to > > the new generations. > > > > Purpose of the study. The purpose of the current study was to capture > > a snapshot of the employment status of individuals who are legally > > blind and/or VI across the United States. Furthermore, this study > > sought to examine demographic factors, education, civic involvement, > > and rehabilitation experiences of this population in order to > > determine whether any state factors (i.e., those which are changeable > > through education or training) could be identified as contributing to > > the employment outcomes of these individuals. > > > > Research Questions. The following research questions served as the > > guiding principles for this study. > > > > Q1: What is the employment rate for adults who are blind/VI in a > > national sample, and how does this rate compare to existing research > > findings on the subject? > > Q2: Are specific demographic factors (i.e., age, gender, racial > > identity, visual status) associated with greater or lesser rates of > > employment and wages for this population? > > Q3: Can social and civic factors (i.e., civic involvement, affiliation > > with consumer organizations) be identified that are associated with > > higher rates of employment and wages for this population? > > Q4: Can education and rehabilitation-related factors (i.e., college, > > adjustment training, etc.) be identified that are associated with > > increased rates of employment and wages for this population? > > > > Method > > Participants > > The participants for this survey were drawn from legally blind and VI > > adults of working age (i.e., 18-70 years old) from across the United > > States. Complete data were obtained from 1,056 individuals who were an > > average age of 46.47 years (SD=13.81, Range=18-87). These individuals > > were representative of 595 females (56.34%) and 461 males (43.66%), > > who were 90 African Americans (8.52%), 35 Asian Americans (3.31%), 56 > > Hispanics/Latinos (including Puerto Ricans) (5.30%), eight Native > > Americans/Alaska Natives (0.76%), four Native Hawaiians/Pacific > > Islanders (0.38%), 836 Whites or Caucasians (79.17%), and 27 who > > reported being of other or mixed races (2.56%). > > > > Instruments > > The instruments that were used for this study included the Adult > > Rehabilitation and Employment Survey (ARES), which consisted of 79 > > variables, covering (a) general demographics including living > > situation; (b) VR and adjustment training experiences; (c) civic and > > consumer organization affiliation; (d) educational attainment; (e) > > employment characteristics; and (f) a request to participate in future > > research. > > > > Procedures > > All participants first read (or were read to) an informed consent > > document that outlined the purpose of the study, characteristics of > > requested participants (i.e., blind/VI adults of working age), and a > > notice that their participation was completely voluntary. This study > > was reviewed and approved by the host university?s Institutional > > Review Board (IRB). Interested persons were provided two options for > > participation: (1) they could complete the survey online by visiting > > the provided URL; or (2) they were invited to contact the office of > > the principal investigator and have the survey read to them by a > > research assistant over the phone. The survey took approximately ten > > minutes to complete. Data were collected between March 15 and August > > 31, 2011. > > > > Recruitment. The purpose of this survey was to obtain a snapshot of > > the cross section of rehabilitation, education, and employment > > situation of adults with legal blindness/visual impairment in the > > United States. As such, a host of methods were employed to reach > > individuals from a cross section of society and socioeconomic status. > > The invitation to participate in the survey was distributed on all > > available listservs of the two largest consumer organizations of the > > blind (i.e., the American Council of the Blind (ACB) and the National > > Federation of the Blind (NFB)). The invitation was sent electronically > > to every state-operated library for the blind in each regional office > > with a request to have it distributed to library patrons. The > > invitation was sent electronically to all fifty VR agencies who serve > > the blind/VI population, to the National Council of State Agencies for > > the Blind, and related rehabilitation membership organizations. The > > request for participation was sent to more than 80 rehabilitation and > > adjustment training facilities electronically, and more than 2,000 > > requests were also sent in print/Braille to those training centers > > that were willing to distribute the announcement. In addition, 3,000 > > print/Braille flyers were distributed to the participants of the 2011 > > annual convention of the NFB; 1,200 were distributed to the > > participants of the 2011 annual convention of the ACB; and 200 were > > distributed to the participants of the Blinded Veterans of America > > Conference. Requests were sent on more than ten periodic newsletters > > and periodical publications, were posted on Facebook and other social > > media outlets, and were passed on by word of mouth. > > > > Results > > Demographics > > Beyond age, gender, and racial group identity, the following data were > > captured to provide an understanding of the make up of the sample > > population that comprised this study. The respondents were > > representative of all 50 states, with the fewest respondents being > > from North Dakota (n = 2) and the largest representation coming from > > Texas (n = 75). They self-reported being 702 individuals who are blind > > (66.48%) and 354 reported being visually impaired (33.52%) (See Table > > 1). > > > > Table 1 ? Demographics > > > > Age > > > > > > > > n > > Mean > > SD > > > > 1056 > > 46.47 > > 13.81 > > > > > > Range > > 18-87 > > > > > > > > > > > > Gender > > Frequency > > Percent > > > > Female > > 595 > > 56.34 > > > > Male > > 461 > > 43.66 > > > > Total > > 1056 > > 100 > > > > > > > > > > > > Race/Ethnicity > > Frequency > > Percent > > > > African American, Black > > 90 > > 8.52 > > > > Asian American, Asian > > 35 > > 3.31 > > > > Hispanic, Latino (including Puerto Rican) > > 56 > > 5.3 > > > > Native American, Alaska Native > > 8 > > 0.76 > > > > Native Hawaiian, Pacific Islander > > 4 > > 0.38 > > > > Other > > 27 > > 2.56 > > > > White or Caucasian > > 836 > > 79.17 > > > > Total > > 1056 > > 100 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vision Status > > Frequency > > Percent > > > > Blind > > 702 > > 66.48 > > > > Visually Impaired > > 354 > > 33.52 > > > > Total > > 1056 > > 100 > > > > > > Data were collected on additional demographics, such as marital > > status, living situation, and the community of residence. The majority > > of participants (51%) reported that they live in their own home that > > they are purchasing, with the smallest proportion (2%) who reported > > living in a dormitory or similar institution. The largest segment of > > this population are currently married (45%), while just under two > > percent report being widowed. By far, the majority of this sample > > (57%) report that they do not have any children, while the next > > largest grouping (17%) report having two children. While others report > > having one, three, four or five children, less than two percent (1.5%) > > report having six or more children. When looking at the size of the > > community in which individuals reside, the majority (23%) lived in > > small communities of less than 25,000 residence, with the second > > largest concentration (22%) living in small communities of between > > 25,000 and 75,000. The third largest grouping of individuals resided > > in large cities with populations above one million, and the remainder > > fell into mid-size communities (See Table 2). > > > > Table 2 ? Family and Community > > > > > > Living Situation Frequency > > percent > > > > Live alone and/or with others in house/condo that I own or am > > purchasing > > 541 > > 51.23 > > > > Live alone and/or with others in apartment or rental property > > that I pay for > > 300 > > 28.41 > > > > Live at home with parents or in someone else?s home > > 130 > > 12.31 > > > > Live in dormitory or other institution > > 25 > > 2.37 > > > > Share an apartment or rental property with room mates > > 60 > > 5.68 > > > > Total > > 1056 > > 100 > > > > > > > > > > > > Marital Status > > Frequency > > Percent > > > > Divorced > > 107 > > 10.13 > > > > Married > > 475 > > 44.98 > > > > Separated > > 22 > > 2.08 > > > > Single > > 353 > > 33.43 > > > > Widow or widower > > 18 > > 1.7 > > > > With significant other person > > 81 > > 7.67 > > > > Total > > 1056 > > 99.99 > > > > > > > > > > > > Raising Children > > Frequency > > Percent > > > > No, I have no children > > 605 > > 57.29 > > > > 1 child > > 133 > > 12.59 > > > > 2 children > > 176 > > 16.67 > > > > 3 children > > 80 > > 7.58 > > > > 4 children > > 35 > > 3.31 > > > > 5 children > > 11 > > 1.04 > > > > 6 or more children > > 16 > > 1.52 > > > > Total > > 1056 > > 100 > > > > > > > > > > > > Population of Your Community > > Frequency > > Percent > > > > 1-25,000 People > > 245 > > 23.2 > > > > 25,001?75,000 People > > 240 > > 22.73 > > > > 75,001?150,000 People > > 121 > > 11.46 > > > > 150,001?250,000 People > > 104 > > 9.85 > > > > 250,001?500,000 People > > 89 > > 8.43 > > > > 500,001?1,000,000 People > > 121 > > 11.46 > > > > 1,000,001?2,000,001?larger > > 136 > > 12.88 > > > > Total > > 1056 > > 100.01 > > > > > > Vocational Rehabilitation and Education > > The next set of questions was designed to gain information related to > > VR, and in particular, the attainment of adjustment to vision loss > > training. Individuals were asked whether they had an active case with > > their state?s VR agency. Forty-two individuals (3.98%) stated that > > they have never had a VR case, while 26 were unsure or did not know > > (2.46%). Of the remaining 94%, 577 individuals (54.64%) reported > > having once had a VR case, but that it is closed now, while 411 > > individuals (38.92%) reported they still maintain an open VR case. > > When asked whether or not the individual ever received adjustment to > > blindness training (i.e., mobility with a white cane, Braille, or > > daily living skills), 191 individuals (18.09%) reported that they have > > never received any sort of formal skill training based on visual > > impairment. Another 501 individuals (47.44%) reported having completed > > (or graduated) from either a residential or day-training program. > > Another 119 individuals (11.26%) stated that they attended a > > residential or day program, but that they did not complete their > > training program. Finally, 252 individuals (23.86%) reported that they > > attended multiple forms of training, and/or that they received > > training in their home or school. > > > > While there are many forms of rehabilitation and adjustment training, > > this study focused only on cane and Braille. For those who did receive > > some sort of adjustment training, they were asked about their > > training/use of a white cane for mobility. There were 777 individuals > > who reported having been taught to use a cane. These individuals were > > at an average of 23.67 years of age (SD = 15.62, Range = 2?78) when > > they were first taught. Of the total sample, 152 stated ?No, the use > > of a cane was not taught? (14.39%). The remaining individuals stated, > > ?I learned a little about cane use? (n = 76, 7.20%); ?I was taught > > using a white cane that measured between my sternum and chin? (n = > > 513, 48.58%); and ?I was taught with a long cane that measured between > > my chin and nose? (n = 315, 29.83%). When respondents were asked > > whether they currently use a white cane for mobility, 247 stated that > > they did not use a cane for mobility (23.39%). Of the remaining 544 > > individuals, (51.52%) stated that they use a cane all of the time, and > > 265 individuals (25.09%) reported using a cane some of the time. When > > asked about the size and structure of the cane that is preferred for > > current use, 334 individuals (39.57%) said, ?A folding cane, that is > > lower than my chin in height;? 171 individuals (20.26%) said, ?A > > folding or telescoping cane that is above my chin in height;? 249 > > individuals (29.50%) said, ?A rigid cane that is above my chin in > > height;? 40 individuals (4.74%) said, ?A rigid cane, that is lower > > than my chin in height;? and 50 individuals (5.92%) stated that they > > used another type of cane/mobility device. > > > > Similarly, participants were asked about their training/use of > > Braille. There were 674 individuals who reported being taught Braille > > at an average of 18.32 years of age (SD = 15.54, Range = 3?78). Of the > > entire sample, 765 stated that they were taught Braille (72.44%), > > while 291 reported that they had not been taught Braille (27.56%). > > When these participants were asked whether or not they currently read > > Braille on a daily or weekly basis, 613 stated that they currently > > read Braille (58.05%), and 443 stated that they do not currently read > > Braille (41.95%). > > > > With respect to participant education, respondents were asked about > > their educational standing before they received any rehabilitation > > training, and then again after the receipt of any vocational training. > > Table 3 provides a side by side comparison of the number and > > percentage of individuals by educational level before and after > > rehabilitation training. As can be seen from the table, a majority of > > individuals significantly increased their educational attainment, from > > pre to post training. When respondents were asked whether they > > attributed their rehabilitation training to their advances in > > education, 141 individuals (13.45%) stated that they did not attend > > rehabilitation and adjustment training. Of the remaining, 201 > > individuals (19.03%) stated that their rehabilitation did not help > > them to increase their educational attainment, while another 282 > > individuals (26.70%) were not sure. This meant that 432 individuals > > (40.1%) of respondents felt that their rehabilitation training was > > either somewhat helpful, or was instrumental in their ability to > > increase in their educational attainment. > > > > Table 3 -- Education > > > > > > Education > > Before VR Frequency > > Percent > > Education > > After VR > > Frequency > > Percent > > > > Less than High School > > 194 > > 18.37 > > Less than High School > > 13 > > 1.23 > > > > High School diploma/GED > > 349 > > 33.05 > > High School diploma/GED > > 49 > > 4.64 > > > > Some college, but no degree > > 148 > > 14.02 > > Some college, but no degree > > 141 > > 13.35 > > > > Associates Degree/AA > > 50 > > 4.73 > > Associates Degree/AA > > 76 > > 7.2 > > > > Vocational or Trade school > > 15 > > 1.42 > > Vocational or Trade school > > 53 > > 5.02 > > > > Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree > > 147 > > 13.92 > > Bachelor?s/undergraduate degree > > 246 > > 23.3 > > > > Master?s/Graduate Degree > > 72 > > 6.82 > > Master?s/Graduate Degree > > 238 > > 22.54 > > > > Law Degree > > 12 > > 1.14 > > Law Degree > > 21 > > 1.99 > > > > Doctorate degree/post graduate training > > 17 > > 1.61 > > Doctorate degree/post graduate training > > 46 > > 4.36 > > > > Not sure or > > Not applicable > > 52 > > 4.92 > > Not sure or > > Not applicable > > 173 > > 16.38 > > > > Pre Training > > 1056 > > 100 > > Post Training > > 1056 > > 100.01 > > > > > > Consumer and Civic Involvement > > Individuals were asked whether they participated in any consumer > > organizations of the blind. There were 226 individuals (21.40%) who > > affiliated with the (ACB); 49 individuals (4.64%) who affiliated with > > both the ACB and NFB; 457 individuals (43.28%) who associated with the > > NFB; and 324 individuals (30.68%) who are not members of any consumer > > organization. In attempting to determine the level or extent of > > consumer organizational affiliation, 330 individuals (31.25%) > > reiterated that they do not participate in consumer organizations; 397 > > individuals (37.59%) stated that they are members, but hold no > > leadership positions; 253 individuals (23.96%) reported holding local > > or state leadership positions; 12 individuals (1.14%) claimed national > > leadership positions; and 64 individuals (6.06%) stated that they hold > > several positions at the local, state, and/or national level. > > > > Information was also sought with respect to the frequency with which > > participants participated in other community and/or civic activities > > in their local communities. All individuals participated in at least > > one extracurricular event, and a large number participated in a number > > of different activities. Of the sample, 541 individuals (51.23%) > > stated that they participate in their local church, synagogue, or > > place of worship. As many as 185 individuals (17.51%) reported holding > > leadership positions within their church. One-hundred ninety-four > > individuals (18.37%) participate in music or theatre; 111 individuals > > (10.51%) compete on local sports or athletic teams; 114 individuals > > (10.79%) are members of Kiwanis, Rotary, or other business groups; and > > 200 individuals (18.93%) participate in political and/or other civic > > groups. > > > > Employment > > One of the major factors under consideration in this study was the > > employment situation of the population of adults who are blind/VI, and > > specifically, what role, if any, VR plays in changing this situation. > > As can be seen from Table 4, 512 individuals (48.48%) were unemployed > > prior to receiving VR services, while only 192 individuals (18.18%) > > were employed full time. Conversely, after individuals received VR > > services, the majority of persons, 393 (37.22%), were employed > > full-time, compared to 307 individuals (29.07%) who remained > > unemployed, in addition to a 5.3% increase in the number of > > individuals who were working part-time. Of the 535 individuals who > > were working either full- or part-time at the completion of this > > survey, 406 individuals provided data on their annual salaries. For > > these individuals, the average annual salary was $40,134.12 (SD = > > $27,129.74, Range = $2,401.92--$180,000), with a median annual salary > > of $35,000. > > > > Table 4 ? Employment Status > > > > > > Before VR Frequency > > Percentage > > After VR > > Frequency > > Percentage > > > > Full-time employed > > 192 > > 18.18 > > Full-Time > > 393 > > 37.22 > > > > Part-time employed > > 86 > > 8.14 > > Part-Time > > 142 > > 13.45 > > > > Full-time college or vocational student > > 119 > > 11.27 > > Full-Time College > > 72 > > 6.82 > > > > Volunteer part- or full-time > > 33 > > 3.13 > > Vol. F-P > > 45 > > 4.26 > > > > Full-time Homemaker > > 26 > > 2.46 > > Homemaker > > 21 > > 1.99 > > > > Retired from previous employment > > 35 > > 3.31 > > Retired > > 76 > > 7.2 > > > > Unemployed > > 512 > > 48.48 > > Unemployed > > 307 > > 29.07 > > > > N/A, I never had a VR case before > > 53 > > 5.02 > > > > > > > > > > Total > > 1056 > > 99.99 > > * > > 1056 > > 100.01 > > > > > > Information was also collected with respect to the availability of > > fringe benefits through the place of employment. The participants > > reported that 361 individuals (66.85%) had the availability of medical > > insurance through their place of work. In addition, 338 individuals > > (62.59%) reported having dental insurance available to them, and 332 > > individuals (61.48%) reported having retirement benefits/planning > > available to them through their work. > > > > Factors that Impact on Employment > > The preceding data are helpful in drawing a picture of the general > > demographic, rehabilitation, educational, and employment > > characteristics of the working-age population of individuals who are > > blind. With only 37% of the population reporting full-time employment, > > it is important to examine the demographic, rehabilitation, and > > educational characteristics of this sample to determine the factors > > that seem to make an impact on the attainment of employment. The > > demographic and descriptive data that have been presented so far are > > representative of the entire sample. During the analysis of the VR > > data, the first question identified that 475 individuals (45.36%) of > > the sample either still have an open VR case, or else they did not > > know what their VR status was. Consequently, 577 individuals (54.64%) > > of the sample reported that they did receive VR services, but that > > their VR case has now been closed. It is this portion of the sample > > whose data should be most descriptive of the employment situation of > > individuals post-rehabilitation, and therefore, the remaining analysis > > will be confined to the 577 individuals who have already received VR > > services and who should most likely be available for participation in > > the workforce. > > > > Demographic factors. The participant?s age, gender, racial/ethnic > > classification, and visual impairment characteristics were examined to > > determine to what effect each has on the attainment of employment. The > > data demonstrated that there was no correlation between the age of the > > consumer and the likelihood of being competitively employed; nor was > > there a relationship between age and the annual earnings of > > participants. > > > > Participants were asked to classify themselves as being either blind > > or VI. This information was sought based on a perception that those > > with lesser vision may be less employable and consequently at a > > greater risk for unemployment. The data demonstrated no significant > > difference based on this classification (F(1, 576) = 1.55, p = .21, > > RS.0). Those who described themselves as ?blind? were employed at a > > rate of 54%, while those who classified themselves as ?visually > > impaired? were employed at a rate of 49%. While a difference does > > exist based on annual earnings for these two groups, the results were > > non-significant (F(1, 294) = 3.28, p = .07, RS = .01).; with blind > > individuals earning $44,000 on average and visually impaired earning > > $37,623. With respect to gender, the data demonstrated no significant > > differences between men and women on the percentage of those who were > > employed (54% and 51% respectively); however, there was a significant > > difference in the annual earnings based on gender (F(1, 294) = 10.45, > > p < .01, RS = .03), with men earning an average of $47,424 and females > > earning $37,483 annually. Next, the participant?s self-reported > > racial/ethnic background was examined, and no significant differences > > were found in either the percentage of employment or annual earnings. > > > > Does participation in a national consumer organization of the blind/VI > > help such individuals with their employment prospects? Data > > demonstrated that a significant difference did exist (F(2, 576) = > > 5.99, p < .01, RS = .02), with those individuals who participate in > > the ACB being employed at a rate of 42%, those who participate in the > > NFB being employed at a rate of 59%, and those who reported no > > participation in a consumer organization for the blind being employed > > at a rate of 49%. Similarly, a significant difference exists based on > > annual income (F(2, 294) = 3.80, p = .02, RS = .02), with ACB members > > earning an average annual wage of $37,100; NFB members earning > > $46,200; and those who do not affiliate with either organization > > earning $38,200. > > > > Training factors. Beyond those characteristics of participants that > > are trait factors (i.e., demographics), it was next important to > > evaluate the impact of the state factors that were examined (i.e., > > education and rehabilitation training). Previous studies (Bell, 2010) > > demonstrated that the attainment of college education is a leading > > factor in increasing employment and so it was examined for its impact > > in this study. Although myriad forms of rehabilitation training exist, > > this study focused primarily on the provision of adjustment skills > > training through comprehensive residential and day training programs. > > Specific data were also obtained with respect to the use of the white > > cane and Braille, as these are the most readily identifiable tools > > used by individuals who are blind or VI. > > > > The data demonstrate that a significant difference exists between the > > employment status of participants based on the level of education that > > had been attained (F(4, 576 = 13.09, p < .01, RS = .08). Further > > analysis showed that those who had a high school diploma or less, or > > who attended only some college were employed at a rate of 36%; those > > who had earned a baccalaureate degree were employed at a rate of 59%; > > those having earned a master?s degree were employed at a rate of 65%; > > and those with a law or doctoral degree were employed at a rate of > > 80%. Similarly, significant differences exist with respect to the > > annual earnings of these individuals (F(4, 296) = 12.23, p < .01, RS = > > .14). These differences were represented by those holding a high > > school diploma or less earning an average annual salary of $31,500; > > those holding a baccalaureate degree earning $42,300; those holding a > > master?s degree earning $48,200; and those with a law or doctoral > > degree earning $66,900 annually. > > > > When participants were asked whether they had completed training at > > any sort of day-time or residential program, the sample was split > > almost in half between those who had, and who had not completed > > training. The data demonstrated that the mere fact of receiving > > training versus not receiving training had no impact on employment > > outcomes (F(1, 576) = 0.24, p =.62, RS = 0). Upon further analysis, a > > more interesting trend was discovered. The data demonstrated a > > significant difference based on the method or type of training that > > was received (F(2, 576) = 3.78, p = .02, RS = .01). The data > > demonstrated that those individuals who completed training at a > > Structured Discovery-based training center were employed at a rate of > > 60%; those who completed training at a traditional or conventional > > training facility were employed at a rate of 47%; and those who either > > received training at home, or who received no formal skills training > > were employed at a rate of 56%. When the annualized salary of these > > individuals was examined, the data again showed significant > > differences (F(2, 294) = 3.98, p = .01, RS = .02). The same trend > > continued, with those who received their rehabilitation at a > > Structured Discovery-based program earning an average of $49,302; > > those who received their training at conventional centers earned an > > average of $38,170; and those who were trained at home or had no > > formal training earned an average of $42,753. > > > > Another factor that was examined in this study was recidivism (i.e., > > the returning for training multiple times). As has been noted in the > > literature, there is concern that the need for constant retraining?for > > example, when more vision diminishes--has a negative impact on > > employment. It is for this reason that Structured Discovery-based > > training centers endeavor to provide comprehensive training during one > > concentrated period of time. The data do in fact support the notion > > that those who return for training multiple times have significantly > > less employment than those who only obtain training a single time > > (F(3, 384) = 2.80, p = .04, RS = .02), with those who obtained > > training one time being employed at a rate of 57% and those receiving > > training 4 or more times being employed at a rate of 35%. The same > > trend exists with respect to salary (F(3, 193) = 2.81, p = .04, RS = > > .04), with those who attended training one time earning $46,766, and > > those obtaining training four or more times earning $33,275. > > > > More specifically, this research was interested in several specific > > training variables and their impact on employment. The data > > demonstrated that 87% of participants have been taught to use a long > > white cane for mobility; however, only 54% of respondents report > > currently using a white cane for daily mobility. When these data were > > evaluated for their impact on employment, the data demonstrated that > > individuals who currently use a white cane for mobility are employed > > at a significantly higher rate than those who do not (F(1, 576) = > > 3.73, p = .05, RS = .006), with cane users being employed at a rate of > > 57% and those who do not use a cane being employed at a rate of 49%. > > The data were similarly significant with respect to the annual income > > of cane users (F(1, 294) = 4.77, p = .02, RS = .01), with cane users > > earning an average of $45,329, and non-cane users earning an average > > of $38,478. Stemming from the findings of Aditya (2004), the data were > > next analyzed to see if the type of cane used was related to > > employment outcomes. The data demonstrated a significant difference > > (F(2, 465) = 9.52, p < .01, RS = .03), with those who use a rigid cane > > that comes above the chin in height being employed at a rate of 66%, > > those who use a folding or rigid cane that is below the chin in height > > being employed at a rate of 47%, and those who either use an ?other? > > device or no cane at all being employed at a rate of 34%. Similarly, > > the data demonstrated a significant difference in the annual earnings > > (F(2, 241) = 6.92, p < .01, RS = .05), with longer white cane users > > earning approximately $50,000, short/folding cane users earning > > $37,000, and other/no cane earning $49,000. > > > > The same data were next analyzed to determine whether the use of > > Braille had an impact on the employment status of this population. > > Similar to cane use, 75% of the participants were taught Braille at > > some time during their education or rehabilitation, but only 63% > > reported still using Braille on a daily basis. Are Braille readers > > employed at a higher rate than VI individuals who do not read Braille? > > The data demonstrate that the answer to this question is yes (F(1, > > 576) = 11.32, p < .01, RS = .02), with Braille readers being employed > > at a rate of 58% and those who do not read Braille being employed at a > > rate of 44%. With respect to annualized salary, the data are even more > > significant (F(1, 294) = 11.40, p < .01, RS = .03), with Braille > > readers earning an average of $45,947, and non-Braille readers earning > > an average of $34,826. With more than an $11,000 difference in > > annualized salary, there appears to be a substantial impact that > > Braille has on employment and salary. > > > > Taken individually, each of these factors demonstrates a significant > > impact (or association) with greater or lesser rates of employment. By > > combining the most salient factors together, the results show even > > more substantial differences in employment outcomes. Individuals who > > complete training at a Structured Discovery type of training center, > > continue to read Braille on a daily or weekly basis, use a white cane > > for mobility, and affiliate with the NFB are employed at a rate of > > 75%, earning an annualized salary of $53,600. Conversely, those > > individuals who received training at a conventional program or had no > > formal training, who affiliated with the ACB or no consumer > > organization, and who do not use a white cane or Braille are employed > > at a rate of 44%, earning $36,000 annually. > > > > Discussion > > The rates of employment for individuals who are legally blind/VI in > > the United States have been low for decades. The purpose of this study > > was to describe the current employment status of these individuals and > > to analyze its consistency with federal reports and previous research. > > In addition, the study sought to examine demographic factors, > > education, civic involvement, and rehabilitation experiences of this > > population in order to determine whether some of them could be > > identified as contributing to the employment outcomes. > > > > The contributions of this study are quite revealing and reliable since > > this work represents the largest field-based study in the field of > > rehabilitation for blind and VI individuals, with a national sample of > > 1,056 participants. Although this study highlighted a great deal of > > demographic, education, and rehabilitation factors that impact on > > employment, the following were found to be the most salient: > > > > a.. The data show that 37% of working-age adults who are blind/VI > > are employed full-time earning a median salary of $35,000?a strikingly > > similar finding to the federal rehabilitation and labor findings for > > this population. This finding is also similar to those of existing > > research (Bell, 2010; Warren-Peace, 2009), putting in evidence that > > there has not been a change in the employment rate in the last years. > > b.. Of these 37% employed individuals , approximately 67% have > > access to medical insurance through their work, 63% have access to > > dental insurance, and 61% have the availability of retirement > > planning. > > c.. Although men and women who are blind/VI are employed at roughly > > equivalent rates, a gender gap still exists with men earning on > > average $10,000 more annually than women. These findings are > > consistent with those of previous research (Bell, 2010; Darensbourg, > > 2013; Randolph, 2004; Warren-Peace, 2009). > > d.. No significant difference was identified within the rates of > > employment or earnings based on other demographic characteristics, > > such as age, race/ethnicity, or visual impairment classification. > > e.. Those individuals who affiliate with the NFB in this study were > > employed at a rate of 59%, earning $46,200; whereas, those who > > affiliate with the ACB were employed at a rate of 42%, earning > > $37,000. Those who chose not to affiliate with either organization > > tended to fare better than ACB members, but less well than NFB > > members. > > f.. As has been demonstrated in previous research, educational > > attainment was a significant factor in the employment of this > > population, with those having graduate-level education being employed > > at more than twice the rate of those with only a high school diploma, > > and a more than $35,000 difference in annualized earnings. > > g.. Obtaining comprehensive adjustment training was also positively > > related to employment outcomes, with those being trained at Structured > > Discovery-based programs being employed at a rate of 60%, earning > > $49,300 in comparison to those trained at conventionally-based > > programs, who were employed at a rate of 47%, earning $38,100. These > > results confirm those of Aditya (2004). > > h.. Recidivism (i.e., the returning for retraining multiple times), > > was found to be negatively related to employment, with those who > > receive training four or more times being employed at a rate of 35% in > > comparison to those who seek training only once being employed at 57%, > > and those same individuals earning $13,000 less than those who were > > trained a single time. > > i.. The findings showed that those who use a white cane for daily > > mobility are employed at a significantly higher rate and earn a > > significantly greater annualized salary than those who no longer do. > > j.. Those who read Braille on a daily or weekly basis are employed > > at a significantly higher rate than those who do not, and Braille > > readers also earn on average $11,000 more than non-Braille readers. > > k.. In combination, the data indicate that individuals who complete > > training at a Structured Discovery program, who affiliate with the > > NFB, use a cane for daily mobility, and read Braille are employed at a > > rate of 75%, earning $53,000 annually. > > l.. In contrast, those who were conventionally trained or not > > trained, who either affiliate with ACB or no one, and who neither use > > a cane or read Braille are employed at only a rate of 44%, earning > > only $36,000 annually. > > > > > > Implications > > The employment rate for individuals who are blind or VI remains > > extremely low in the United States. The findings of this study may > > help consumers and professionals in the field of blindness to pinpoint > > and work on those factors that influence the acquisition of > > competitive employment and higher earnings in their particular cases. > > Education and training seem to be two of the main central factors to > > have a significant influence. It is extremely important for consumers > > and professionals, especially in the VR field, to acknowledge the > > benefits of this type of training. Consumers should become aware of > > these data about Structured Discovery training in order to be able to > > make an authentic informed choice about their rehabilitation plan. Of > > the data obtained through this study, consumers and practitioners > > should know that: > > > > a.. Age, gender, racial identity, and degree of visual impairment > > need not impede one?s ability to obtain employment. > > b.. Education, especially higher education, seems to make a positive > > difference in the chances of being employed and the amount of money > > that one can earn. > > c.. Knowing positive role models who are themselves blind appears to > > be important in the pursuit of education, training, and employment. > > d.. Using a white cane to assist in daily mobility is probably a good > > idea. > > e.. Knowing and using Braille for reading on a regular basis makes > > good sense. > > f.. Obtaining comprehensive training up front seems better than > > getting it piecemeal over time in shorter segments. > > > > > > References > > Amato, S. (2009). Challenges and Solutions in Teaching Braille in an > > Online-Education Model. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, > > 103(2), 78-80. > > > > American Foundation for the Blind (2012). Adults with vision loss. > > Retrieved from > > http://www.afb.org/section.aspx?FolderID=2&SectionID=15&TopicID=413&Docu > > mentID=4385 > > > > Aditya, R. N. (2004). A comparison of two orientation and mobility > > certification programs. Unpublished report prepared for the > > Rehabilitation Services Administration (RSA), Washington, DC. > > > > Baldwin, M. L., & Schumacher, E. J. (2002). A note on job mobility > > among workers with disabilities. Industrial Relations: A Journal of > > Economy & Society, 41(3), 430-441. > > > > Beck-Winchatz, B., & Riccobono, M. (2008). Advancing participation of > > blind students in Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. Advances > > in Space Research, 42(11), 1855-1858. doi:10.1016/j.asr.2007.05.080. > > > > Bennetts, C. (2003). Mentoring youth: trend and tradition. British > > Journal of Guidance & Counseling, 31(1), 63-76. > > doi:10.1080/0306988031000086170 > > > > Bell, E. C. (2010). Competitive employment for consumers who are > > legally blind: A 10-year retrospective study. Journal of > > Rehabilitation Research & Development, 47(2), 109-116. > > doi:10.1682/JRRD.2009.08.0120 > > > > Bell, E. C. (2012). Mentoring transition-age youth with blindness. The > > Journal of Special Education, 46(3), 170-179. > > > > Capella, M. (2001). Predicting earnings of vocational rehabilitation > > clients with visual impairments. Journal of Rehabilitation, 67(4), > > 43-47. > > > > Capella-McDonnall, M. (2005). Predictors of competitive employment for > > blind and visually impaired consumers of vocational rehabilitation > > services. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(5), 303-315. > > > > Cavenaugh, B. (1999). Relationship of agency structure and client > > characteristics to rehabilitation services and outcomes for consumers > > who are blind. Unpublished manuscript, Mississippi State University, > > Rehabilitation Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low > > Vision, Starkville, MS. > > > > Cavenaugh, B. S., Giesen, J. M., & Pierce, S. J. (2000). > > Rehabilitation of visually impaired persons in separate and general > > agencies. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 94(3), 133-145. > > > > Cavenaugh, B., Giesen, J., & Steinman, B. (2006). Contextual effects > > of race or ethnicity on acceptance for vocational rehabilitation of > > consumers who are legally blind. Journal of Visual Impairment & > > Blindness, 100(7), 425-436. > > > > Crudden, A., & McBroom, L. (1999). Barriers to employment: A survey of > > employed persons who are visually impaired. Journal of Visual > > Impairment and Blindness, 93(6), 341-350. > > > > Darensbourg, B. (2013). Predictors of competitive employment of VR > > consumers with blindness or visual impairments. Journal of Vocational > > Rehabilitation. 38(1), 29-34. doi: 10.3233/JVR-120618 > > > > Ferguson, R. (2001). We know who we are: A history of the blind in > > challenging educational and socially constructed policies: A study in > > policy archeology. San Francisco, CA: Caddo Gap. > > > > Fireison, C., & Moore, J. (1998). Employment Outcomes and Educational > > Backgrounds of Legally Blind Adults Employed in Sheltered Industrial > > Settings. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 92(11), 740-47. > > > > Golub, D. B. (2006). A model of successful work experience for > > employees who are visually impaired: The results of a study. Journal > > of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 100(12), 715-725. > > > > Hall, L. J., & McGregor, J. A. (2000). A follow-up study of the peer > > relationships of children with disabilities in an inclusive school. > > The Journal of Special Education, 34(3), 114-126. > > > > Harris, A. (2008). Messages to take away: Final reflections on > > residential rehabilitation. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from > > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080216.htm > > > > Hershenson, D. (1998). Systemic, ecological model for rehabilitation > > counseling. Rehabilitation Counseling Bulletin, 42(1), 40-50. > > > > Jeanmarie, K. & Strauser, D. R. (2000). Job readiness, self-efficacy > > and work personality: A comparison of trainee and instructor > > perceptions. Journal of Vocational Rehabilitation, 14(1) 13-21. > > > > Leonard, R., D'Allura, T., & Horowitz, A. (1999). Factors associated > > with employment among persons who have a vision impairment: A > > follow-up of vocational placement referrals. Journal of Vocational > > Rehabilitation, 12(1), 33-43. > > > > Marks, S., & Feeley, D. (1995). Transition in action: Michigan's > > experience. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(3), 272-275. > > > > Martz, E., & Xu, Y. (2008). Person-related and service-related factors > > predicting employment of individuals with disabilities. Journal of > > Vocational Rehabilitation, 28(2), 97-104. > > > > Mayo, S., Allen, P. & Deden, J. (2008). A governing philosophy: > > Strategies for implementing a progressive approach in a center-based > > environment. Braille Monitor, 51(2). Retrieved from > > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0802/bm080209.htm > > > > Mettler, R. (2008). Cognitive learning theory and cane travel > > instructors: A new paradigm (2nd ed.). Lincoln, NE: Nebraska > > Commission for the Blind and Visually Impaired. > > > > McDonnall, M., & Crudden, A. (2009). Factors affecting the successful > > employment of transition-age youths with visual impairments. Journal > > of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(6), 329-341. > > > > Miller, J. (2002). The Role of Orientation and Mobility Instructors > > and Rehabilitation Teachers in Enhancing Employment Opportunities for > > Persons Who Are Visually Impaired. Journal of Visual Impairment & > > Blindness, 96(12), 852-55. > > > > Nagle, K. M. (2001). Transition to employment and community life for > > youths with visual impairments: Current status and future directions. > > Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 95(12), 725-738. > > > > National Blindness Professional Certification Board (2012). Structured > > Discovery Cane Travel. Retrieved from > > http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/sdct.php > > > > Omvig, J. (2002). Freedom for the Blind: The secret is empowerment. > > Hot Springs, AR: Region VI Rehabilitation Continuing Education > > Program, University of Arkansas Press. > > > > Omvig, J. (2005). The characteristics of an NFB orientation center. > > Braille Monitor, 48(4). Retrieved from > > http://www.nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm05/bm0504/bm050403.htm > > > > Ozawa, M., & Yeo, Y. (2006). Work Status and Work Performance of > > People With Disabilities: An Empirical Study. Journal of Disability > > Policy Studies, 17(3), 180-190. doi:10.1177/10442073060170030601. > > > > Papadopoulos, K., & Koutsoklenis, A. (2009). Reading media used by > > higher-education students and graduates with visual impairments in > > Greece. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 103(11), 772-777. > > > > Phelps, A. (2005). NFB launches National Center for Mentoring > > Excellence. Journal of Visual Impairment & Blindness, 99(4), 247-248. > > > > Ponchillia, P., & Durant, P. (1995). Teaching behaviors and attitudes > > of Braille instructors in adult rehabilitation centers. Journal of > > Visual Impairment & Blindness, 89(5), 432-439. > > > > Randolph, D. S. (2004). Predicting the effect of disability on > > employment status and income. Work: A Journal of Prevention, > > Assessment & Rehabilitation, 23(3), 257-266. > > > > Ryles, R. (1996). The impact of braille reading skills on employment, > > income, education, and reading habits. Journal of Visual Impairment & > > Blindness, 90(3), 219-226. > > > > Ryles, R. (2008). Structured-Discovery Learning: What it is and why it > > works. Braille Monitor, 51(7). Retrieved from > > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm08/bm0807/bm080708.htm > > > > Schriner, K. (2001). A disability studies perspective on employment > > issues and policies for disabled people. In G. Albrecht, K. Seelman, & > > M. Burry (Eds.), Handbook of disability studies (pp. 642-662). > > Thousand Oaks, CA:Sage. > > > > Schroeder, F. (2000). Changing patterns in the rehabilitation system: > > Meeting the needs of the blind and otherwise disabled. Braille > > Monitor, 43(8). Retrieved from > > http://www.nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm00/bm0008/bm000805.htm > > > > Spungin, S. (1990). Braille literacy: Issues for blind persons, > > families, professionals, and producers of Braille. New York, NY: > > American Foundation for the Blind. > > > > U.S. Census Bureau (2010). Current Population. Retrieved from > > http://www.census.gov/ > > > > Vaughan, E. & Omvig, J. (2005). Education and rehabilitation for > > empowerment. Greenwich, CT: Information Age. > > > > Warren-Peace, P. (2009). Models that predict competitive employment > > outcomes in the United States Federal/State vocational rehabilitation > > program for clients who are blind and clients with other disabilities. > > Dissertation Abstracts International: Section A. Humanities and Social > > Science, 70(4-A), 1181. > > > > Whelley, T., Radtke, R., Burgstahler, S., & Christ, T. (2003). > > Mentors, advisors, role models and peer supporters: Career development > > relationships and individuals with disabilities. American > > Rehabilitation, 27(1), 42-49. > > > > > > > > Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC > > > > REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) > > Exam > > http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php > > > > Director, Professional Development and Research > > Institute on Blindness > > Louisiana Tech University > > 210 Woodard Hall > > PO Box 3158 > > Ruston LA 71272 > > Office: 318.257.4554 > > Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) > > Skype: edwardbell2010 > > ebell at latech.edu > > www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness > > ******************** > > "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of > > Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal > > talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." > > -- Stephen Jay Gould > > _______________________________________________ > > rehab mailing list > > rehab at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/rehab_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > rehab: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/rehab_nfbnet.org/silvermanresearch7%40 > > gmail.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 19 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:18:01 -0700 > > From: Arielle Silverman > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Hi JJ, > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > class start? > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > > Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > > As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > > > O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > > > to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > > (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > > > cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > > > there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > > > at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > > > need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > > > Do I need an advocate? > > > Thanks, > > > JJ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > > m > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 20 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:20:00 -0800 > > From: Cindy Bennett > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > > it, but I have also gotten some. > > > > Cindy > > > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > > Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > > > anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > > read > > > a > > > bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > > > > > >> RJ, > > >> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > > get > > > the > > >> answer. > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: RJ Sandefur > > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> > > >> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > > >> centers > > >> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > >> To: > > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> > > >> > > >> > Minh, > > >> > > > >> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > > as an > > >> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > > children, > > >> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > >> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > >> > > > >> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > > >> > skills > > >> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > > >> > people, > > >> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > >> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > >> > > > >> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people without > > >> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > Braille, > > >> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > > skills > > >> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > >> > training centers are necessary. > > >> > > > >> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the world > > >> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > >> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > >> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > > polite, > > >> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > > appearing > > >> > to > > >> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > > an > > >> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > > nature. > > >> > > > >> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > > you in > > >> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > >> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > >> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > > would > > >> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as a > > >> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > >> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > >> > > > >> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > > advantage of > > >> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > > background, > > >> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > > in > > >> > school, employment and life in general. > > >> > > > >> > Bridgit > > >> > Message: 3 > > >> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > >> > From: minh ha > > >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >> > > > >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> > Message-ID: > > >> > > > >> > > > > > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > >> > > > >> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > > saying > > >> > how > > >> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > > gain > > >> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > > success > > >> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > >> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > > these > > >> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > > Maybe > > >> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > > of > > >> > my > > >> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > > learned > > >> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > > of > > >> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; she > > >> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > > kitchen > > >> > and > > >> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too much > > >> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > > myself > > >> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't see > > >> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > > to > > >> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had many > > >> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > > >> > there > > >> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > >> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > > skills > > >> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > > the > > >> > experience. > > >> > > > >> > Minh > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > nabs-l mailing list > > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > > >> > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > >> ail.com > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > > ink. > > > net > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > >> > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > > ail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > Cindy Bennett > > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 21 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 > > From: Arielle Silverman > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Hi all, > > > > I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > > described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > > bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > > in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > > volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > > of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > > voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > > menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > > us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > > and tend to get it least. > > I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > > unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > > the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > > or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > > employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > > like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > > come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > > integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > > they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > > support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > > to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > > teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > > skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > > exactly how. > > > > Arielle > > > > On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > > > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > > > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > > > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > > > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > > > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > > > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of listing > > > it, but I have also gotten some. > > > > > > Cindy > > > > > > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > > >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one can > > >> read > > >> a > > >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >> > > >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> > > >> > > >>> RJ, > > >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and you'll > > get > > >> the > > >>> answer. > > >>> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: RJ Sandefur > > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>> > > >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > > >>> centers > > >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > >>> To: > > >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Minh, > > >>> > > > >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > > as > > >>> > an > > >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > > children, > > >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > > >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > >>> > > > >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > > >>> > skills > > >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > > >>> > people, > > >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > > >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > >>> > > > >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people > > without > > >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > >>> > Braille, > > >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > > skills > > >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > > >>> > training centers are necessary. > > >>> > > > >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the > > world > > >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > > >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based on > > >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > > >>> > polite, > > >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > > appearing > > >>> > to > > >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and mentally, > > an > > >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > > nature. > > >>> > > > >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > > you > > >>> > in > > >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > > >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > > would > > >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as > > a > > >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > > >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > >>> > > > >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > > advantage > > >>> > of > > >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > > background, > > >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do better > > in > > >>> > school, employment and life in general. > > >>> > > > >>> > Bridgit > > >>> > Message: 3 > > >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > >>> > From: minh ha > > >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>> > > > >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>> > Message-ID: > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > >>> > > > >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > > saying > > >>> > how > > >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > > gain > > >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > > success > > >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain employment > > >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > > >>> > these > > >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > > Maybe > > >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few years > > of > > >>> > my > > >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > > learned > > >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was one > > of > > >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; > > she > > >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > > kitchen > > >>> > and > > >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too > > much > > >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > > myself > > >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't > > see > > >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from society > > to > > >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had > > many > > >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go out > > >>> > there > > >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point is > > >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > > >>> > skills > > >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > > the > > >>> > experience. > > >>> > > > >>> > Minh > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > _______________________________________________ > > >>> > nabs-l mailing list > > >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > > >>> > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > >>> ail.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > > ink. > > >> net > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > >> nabs-l: > > >>> > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur% > > 40gm > > >> ail.com > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Cindy Bennett > > > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > > > > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > > clb5590 at gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > > m > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 22 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 -0700 > > From: johnnie Jean duran > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > > Message-ID: > > > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > > Arielle: > > Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this > > situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not > > required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for > > me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of > > participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even > > met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me > > was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails > > in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, > > I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see > > another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to > > them, it might change their mind. > > Thank you so much Arielle! > > JJ > > > > On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > > Hi JJ, > > > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of > > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should > > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI > > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can > > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the > > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the > > > class start? > > > > > > Arielle > > > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student > > attending > > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is > > allowed > > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that > > I > > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > > >> Do I need an advocate? > > >> Thanks, > > >> JJ > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > >> nabs-l: > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > > m > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai > > l.com > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > > 8th Grade Student > > O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > > Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > > Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > > the NFB. > > Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > > Instagram: jj_duran13 > > Skype: jj.duran13 > > Kik: jjd_13 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 23 > > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:43:40 -0800 > > From: Carly Mihalakis > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > , National Association of Blind Students > > mailing > > list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > > Hi, jJ, > > > > What the hell is a para? > > for today, Car > > 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > >Arielle: > > >Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this > > >situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not > > >required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for > > >me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of > > >participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even > > >met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me > > >was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails > > >in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, > > >I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see > > >another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to > > >them, it might change their mind. > > >Thank you so much Arielle! > > >JJ > > > > > >On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > > > Hi JJ, > > > > > > > > I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot > > of > > > > experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? > > > > Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you > > should > > > > participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your > > > > side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting > > > > Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate > > > > for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your > > TVI > > > > as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are > > > > supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI > > > > and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a > > > > para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this > > > > arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you > > can > > > > still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in > > the > > > > class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does > > the > > > > class start? > > > > > > > > Arielle > > > > > > > > On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > > > >> Dear National Association of Blind Students, > > > >> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student > > attending > > > >> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is > > allowed > > > >> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > > > >> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and > > the > > > >> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me > > in > > > >> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am > > good > > > >> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting > > that I > > > >> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't > > listening? > > > >> Do I need an advocate? > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> JJ > > > >> > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > > >> nabs-l: > > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.co > > m > > > >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > > > nabs-l: > > > > > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmai > > l.com > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran > > >8th Grade Student > > >O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School > > >Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The > > >Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of > > >the NFB. > > >Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran > > >Instagram: jj_duran13 > > >Skype: jj.duran13 > > >Kik: jjd_13 > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >nabs-l mailing list > > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. > > net > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Subject: Digest Footer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 85, Issue 17 > > ************************************** > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 23:09:40 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:09:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers and volunteers In-Reply-To: <012077CC-D8E0-4FE2-8017-8E786C3D5647@samobile.net> References: <012077CC-D8E0-4FE2-8017-8E786C3D5647@samobile.net> Message-ID: <001201cedffc$44e00dd0$cea02970$@gmail.com> Another way to go about it is just to offer your time if you know someone needs the help. When I moved to DC a real nice lady from a Virginia chapter spent a Saturday morning going over the subway system with me so that I would not look like a lost tourist. Almost a year later I had the chance to work with an exchange student from Spain to help him figure out how to run his washer and dryer and how to get from his apartment to work. I've spent countless hours helping people out with JAWS. Volunteer programs would be awesome, but sometimes it's just a matter of offering a hand when you know someone needs the help. Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Moerke Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers and volunteers It would be very difficult to establish volunteer programs like the ones you're thinking of. The rehabilitation field is filled with ego. Many in the rehabilitation Field, especially dealing with rehab teaching and orientation and mobility, feel that you need special certifications in each in order to teach the basic skills. So to step in and offer your uncertified self as a volunteer teacher would be a kind of stepping on the toes. More than likely, they will tell you that it's not safe for whatever reason. Mind you, I'm talking about traditional rehabilitation systems which make up the majority of the country. Your better bet is to create a sort of program that is completely outside of the rehabilitation system. I have operated similar programs through my local chapter of the Federation and it works quite well. If nothing else, our volunteer services provided extra training on top of whatever the person was getting from rehabilitation. It also filled gaps for those who, for whatever reason, couldn't get rehabilitation teaching. That also includes computers and braille & mobility. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > > Arielle, > > Is there any way some initiative could be developed for such > volunteer-based programs? It seems like a huge undertaking, and I > don't even know if something like this can be done on a national > level. Just thinking out loud, so to speak, smile. > > Bridgit > Message: 21 > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi all, > > I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > and tend to get it least. > I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > exactly how. > > Arielle > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40sa > mobile.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Tue Nov 12 23:10:28 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:10:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> Message-ID: The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > > Good morning, > > After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. > Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to >> attend a center.RJ >> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, >> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >> > will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >> > centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >> > Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >> > Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >> > Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >> > To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >> > fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >> > The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >> > be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >> > of the NFB is totally different. >> > >> > I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >> > directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >> > job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >> > >> > On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> > > Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >> > > ----- Original Message ----- >> > > From: "Arielle Silverman" >> > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > > >> > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >> > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > > >> > > >> > >> Hi all, >> > >> >> > >> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >> > >> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >> > >> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >> > >> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >> > >> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >> > >> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >> > >> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >> > >> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >> > >> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >> > >> and tend to get it least. >> > >> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >> > >> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >> > >> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >> > >> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >> > >> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >> > >> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >> > >> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >> > >> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >> > >> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >> > >> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >> > >> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >> > >> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >> > >> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >> > >> exactly how. >> > >> >> > >> Arielle >> > >> >> > >> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> > >> > I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >> > >> > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >> > >> > in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >> > >> > so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >> > >> > me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >> > >> > personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >> listing >> > >> > it, but I have also gotten some. >> > >> > >> > >> > Cindy >> > >> > >> > >> > On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> > >> >> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >> > >> >> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >> can >> > >> >> read >> > >> >> a >> > >> >> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >> >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> > >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >> >> >> > >> >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >> > >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >>> RJ, >> > >> >>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >> you'll >> > > get >> > >> >> the >> > >> >>> answer. >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> > >> >>> From: RJ Sandefur >> > >> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >> > >> >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >> > >> >>> centers >> > >> >>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >> > >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >> > >> >>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> > >> >>> To: >> > >> >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >> > >> >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> > Minh, >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >> > >> >>> > as >> > >> >>> > an >> > >> >>> > adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >> > >> >>> > children, >> > >> >>> > don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >> > >> >>> > attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >> > >> >>> > skills >> > >> >>> > and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >> > >> >>> > people, >> > >> >>> > for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >> > >> >>> > therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >> without >> > >> >>> > shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >> > >> >>> > Braille, >> > >> >>> > adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >> > >> >>> > skills >> > >> >>> > that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >> > >> >>> > training centers are necessary. >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >> world >> > >> >>> > perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >> > >> >>> > yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >> on >> > >> >>> > physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >> > >> >>> > polite, >> > >> >>> > this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >> > > appearing >> > >> >>> > to >> > >> >>> > not be confident and not looking polished physically and >> mentally, >> > > an >> > >> >>> > employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >> > > nature. >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >> > >> >>> > you >> > >> >>> > in >> > >> >>> > this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >> > >> >>> > regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >> > >> >>> > confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >> > > would >> > >> >>> > be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >> a >> > >> >>> > blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >> > >> >>> > confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >> > >> >>> > advantage >> > >> >>> > of >> > >> >>> > attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >> > > background, >> > >> >>> > especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >> better >> > > in >> > >> >>> > school, employment and life in general. >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > Bridgit >> > >> >>> > Message: 3 >> > >> >>> > Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >> > >> >>> > From: minh ha >> > >> >>> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> > >> >>> > Message-ID: >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >> > >> >>> > saying >> > >> >>> > how >> > >> >>> > going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >> > > gain >> > >> >>> > employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >> > >> >>> > success >> > >> >>> > stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >> employment >> > >> >>> > afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >> > >> >>> > these >> > >> >>> > numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >> > >> >>> > Maybe >> > >> >>> > it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >> years >> > > of >> > >> >>> > my >> > >> >>> > life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >> > > learned >> > >> >>> > from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >> one >> > > of >> > >> >>> > the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >> she >> > >> >>> > didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >> > >> >>> > kitchen >> > >> >>> > and >> > >> >>> > taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >> much >> > >> >>> > responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >> > > myself >> > >> >>> > or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >> see >> > >> >>> > myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >> society >> > > to >> > >> >>> > focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >> many >> > >> >>> > internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >> out >> > >> >>> > there >> > >> >>> > and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >> is >> > >> >>> > experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >> > >> >>> > skills >> > >> >>> > I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >> > >> >>> > the >> > >> >>> > experience. >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > Minh >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> >>> > nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > > for >> > >> >>> nabs-l: >> > >> >>> > >> > >> >>> >> > >> >> >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> > >> >>> ail.com >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > >> >>> nabs-l: >> > >> >>> >> > >> >> >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> > >> >> net >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> >> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > >> >> nabs-l: >> > >> >>> >> > >> >> >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> > >> >> ail.com >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> > >> >> nabs-l: >> > >> >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Cindy Bennett >> > >> > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >> > >> > >> > >> > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >> > >> > clb5590 at gmail.com >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> nabs-l mailing list >> > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > nabs-l: >> > >> >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> > > ail.com >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > nabs-l mailing list >> > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > > nabs-l: >> > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >> l.com >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Kaiti >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Tue Nov 12 23:14:38 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 16:14:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5282B65E.5050407@comcast.net> On 11/12/2013 3:41 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Oh yeah, don't forget to mention the winner of that cooking show, Master > Chef or one of those, who was totally blind. She won the entire thing > and didn't use sighted help to do it. I think she's from Texas. > > Bridgit > Message: 16 > Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:10:49 -0500 > From: "justin williams" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question > Message-ID: <002c01cedff4$0b889dc0$2299d940$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Not saying that someone in the class with you won't be helpful, but > there > are a lot of cooks who are blind. Be sure that no matter what happens, > you > perform those skills yourself at some point in the class without any > help > whether you have someone in there with you or not. I would prefer you go > to > class without a helper of any sort, but since I don't know the > situation, I > won't simply tell you not too. However, if your help is just going to > not > let you learn the skills, then that is counterproductive. > -----Original Message----- > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > I believe her name is Christine Ha. Beth From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Tue Nov 12 23:32:07 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:32:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> Message-ID: <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> Hi all, I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question seemed to imply that this happened regularly. Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope that this is a priority. If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing down like a house of cards! I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >> >> Good morning, >> >> After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to >>> attend a center.RJ >>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, >>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>> >>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>> >>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>> listing >>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>> can >>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>> you'll >>>>> get >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>> without >>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>> world >>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>> on >>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>> mentally, >>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >>> a >>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>> better >>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>> employment >>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>> years >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>> one >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>> she >>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>> much >>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>> see >>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>> society >>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>> many >>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>> out >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>> is >>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>> l.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > -- Desiree From i.c.bray at win.net Wed Nov 13 00:07:01 2013 From: i.c.bray at win.net (I. C. Bray) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:07:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question References: Message-ID: <21192BA1FDFE427CAF8B216D3E4AD39B@JAWS> Can someone please tell me what is a "Para"? I have never heard the term used... Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:00 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question : JJ, : : Legally, you and your parents have the right to deny a para. I'm totally : blind and cook and bake almost daily. I do this for my family and have : also cooked for large groups, up to 30 people, all without sighted help. : Be forthright and persistent with this. Be diplomatic, but it's your : right to deny a full-time para. : : Bridgit : Message: 17 : Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 : From: johnnie Jean duran : To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org : Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question : Message-ID: : : : Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 : : Dear National Association of Blind Students, : As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending : O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed : to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking : (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the : cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in : there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good : at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I : need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? : Do I need an advocate? : Thanks, : JJ : : : _______________________________________________ : nabs-l mailing list : nabs-l at nfbnet.org : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 13 00:22:54 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:22:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> Desiree, Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they say something and have you change? I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating skills at pittsburg; that is good. I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you can build self esteem then. Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and harshness certainly does not help me. My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am stressed out and have anxiety. I do not take pressure well. So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be the best fit for all of us. I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt disoriented and very vunerable. You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain department. I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it was helpful. But not for outside travel. Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We should chat about the PA center. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Desiree Oudinot Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Hi all, I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question seemed to imply that this happened regularly. Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope that this is a priority. If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing down like a house of cards! I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, > some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was > involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana > Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively > than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from > individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of > its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some > folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the > organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization > is not accurate. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Good morning, >> >> After associating with, both on and off school time with students >> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life >> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw >> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >> 408-209-3239wrote: >>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able >>> to >>> attend a center.RJ >>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>> Florida, >>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>> >>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>> >>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>> contractors >>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>> most >>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>> know >>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>> helped >>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>> listing >>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>> can >>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>> you'll >>>>> get >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>> without >>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>> world >>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>> on >>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>> mentally, >>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >>> a >>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>> better >>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>> >>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>> employment >>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>> years >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>> one >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>> she >>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>> much >>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>> see >>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>> society >>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>> many >>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>> out >>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>> is >>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>> >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>> l.com >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kaiti >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> ail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > -- Desiree _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 00:25:17 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:25:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501cee006$d4c6b160$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Well, I still stand by my statement Their is the real world and I learned my cane travel and other blindness skills in the real world and not at some training center NFB or otherwise! The reality is when rehab said atempt college, I did it any way. The reality is, when rehab said that ministry was not a realistic goal for a blind person, I am actually doing it. The reality is I just graduated with a 3.8 from the seminary where their were not any student disabilities services. Training centers for y. the blind... what a joke! That's putting it bluntly. -- That is reality! --- Original Message ----- From: "Desiree Oudinot" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Hi all, > I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there > are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. > Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect > that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be > criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question > seemed to imply that this happened regularly. > Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but > what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly > criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve > their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, > and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope > that this is a priority. > If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, > how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being > people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional > sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge > way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who > have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems > like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing > down like a house of cards! > I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't > think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind > them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. > > On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > > The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Good morning, > >> > >> After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. > >> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: > >>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to > >>> attend a center.RJ > >>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a > >>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, > >>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive > >>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have > >>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> > >>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I > >>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training > >>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana > >>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. > >>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and > >>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. > >>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of > >>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. > >>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to > >>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy > >>>> of the NFB is totally different. > >>>> > >>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center > >>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best > >>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; > >>>> > >>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > >>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > >>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > >>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > >>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > >>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > >>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > >>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > >>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > >>>>>> and tend to get it least. > >>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > >>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > >>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > >>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > >>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > >>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > >>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > >>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > >>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > >>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > >>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > >>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > >>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > >>>>>> exactly how. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arielle > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > >>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > >>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > >>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > >>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > >>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > >>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of > >>> listing > >>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cindy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > >>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one > >>> can > >>>>>>>> read > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> RJ, > >>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and > >>> you'll > >>>>> get > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> answer. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >>>>>>>>> centers > >>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >>>>>>>>> To: > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Minh, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > >>>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > >>>>>>>>>> children, > >>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >>>>>>>>>> people, > >>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people > >>> without > >>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > >>>>>>>>>> Braille, > >>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the > >>> world > >>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based > >>> on > >>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > >>>>>>>>>> polite, > >>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > >>>>> appearing > >>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and > >>> mentally, > >>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > >>>>> nature. > >>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > >>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > >>>>> would > >>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as > >>> a > >>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > >>>>>>>>>> advantage > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > >>>>> background, > >>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do > >>> better > >>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Bridgit > >>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 > >>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha > >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > >>>>>>>>>> saying > >>>>>>>>>> how > >>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > >>>>> gain > >>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > >>>>>>>>>> success > >>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > >>> employment > >>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > >>>>>>>>>> these > >>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe > >>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few > >>> years > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> my > >>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > >>>>> learned > >>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was > >>> one > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; > >>> she > >>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > >>>>>>>>>> kitchen > >>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too > >>> much > >>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > >>>>> myself > >>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't > >>> see > >>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from > >>> society > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had > >>> many > >>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go > >>> out > >>>>>>>>>> there > >>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point > >>> is > >>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > >>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> experience. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Minh > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>>>>>> ail.com > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > >>>>>>>> net > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>>>>> ail.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett > >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>> ail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Kaiti > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>> ail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile .net > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co m > > > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 00:46:28 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:46:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Desiree and Ashley, You bring up some very good points. I also don't know which message this comment was in, but it could also be one person's perception of the centers. In thinking about it, I can see why they dock pay for late arrival, and make you change into clean clothes if you do not come in them, as that teaches professionalism to those who might not have it already. But, it depends on what the criticism is, and how it's being dished out. Or, it could just be that certain people take things that aren't meant to be criticisms more harshly than they are meant to be. However, the centers do have students with psychological disorders and other disabilities in addition to blindness, so I agree they need to be mindful of that if what was said is truly the case. Again, I think the best people to ask about these sorts of things are the directors themselves. I have never heard of someone being scorned in the federation for having multiple disabilities, and think that if the federation were to do so it would be totally counterintuitive to the disability rights efforts going on. A lot of the laws the NFB is trying to push through are not just for blind people, but for people with all kinds of disabilities. "Fair wages for workers with disabilities act," not "fair wages for blind workers." The Teach act is the same way, and so on and so forth. I agree that if you experienced this, it was probably just individuals who don't have a very good perspective on disabilities, not the fault of the organization itself. On 11/12/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Desiree, > Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. > At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? > If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they > > say something and have you change? > I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating > skills at pittsburg; that is good. > > I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you > can build self esteem then. > Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it > seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self > > confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came > out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. > I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. > So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and > harshness certainly does not help me. > My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am > > stressed out and have anxiety. > I do not take pressure well. > > So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm > not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, > the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be > the best fit for all of us. > > I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was > not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt > disoriented and very vunerable. > You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic > and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a > surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some > turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. > I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have > problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. > I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at > > malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain > department. > I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about > > my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions > strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it > was helpful. But not for outside travel. > > Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We > should chat about the PA center. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Desiree Oudinot > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Hi all, > I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there > are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. > Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect > that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be > criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question > seemed to imply that this happened regularly. > Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but > what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly > criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve > their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, > and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope > that this is a priority. > If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, > how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being > people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional > sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge > way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who > have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems > like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing > down like a house of cards! > I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't > think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind > them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. > > On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, >> >> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was >> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana >> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively >> >> than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from >> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of >> >> its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some >> >> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the >> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization >> >> is not accurate. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Good morning, >>> >>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students >>> >>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life >>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw >>> >>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >>> 408-209-3239wrote: >>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able >>>> >>>> to >>>> attend a center.RJ >>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>> Florida, >>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>> >>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>> >>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really >>>>>>> designed >>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of >>>>>>> academic >>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>>> know >>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or >>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>> listing >>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>> can >>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>> you'll >>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where >>>>>>>>>> rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my >>>>>>>>>>> sight >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical >>>>>>>>>>> reasoning >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this >>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>> world >>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>> mentally, >>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>> better >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>> years >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>> one >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>> she >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>> see >>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>> society >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>> out >>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 00:50:53 2013 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:50:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com><5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <002b01cee00a$6932ba30$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Ashley, The reason why I said Blind centers are a joke, is because after what happened to me, I became depressed to the point where I'd go to class at the center having not brushed my teath, I hadn't shaved in days, and my room had not been cleaned, and this is how my parents found me. The staff acted surprised and my fathers words were, "You people didn't teachmy son a God damn thing!" So he took me out of there and my aunt had to teach me herself! I'd come their willing to learn, and had left their a complete nobody... a shell.. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Desiree, > Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. > At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? > If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they > say something and have you change? > I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating > skills at pittsburg; that is good. > > I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you > can build self esteem then. > Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it > seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self > confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came > out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. > I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. > So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and > harshness certainly does not help me. > My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am > stressed out and have anxiety. > I do not take pressure well. > > So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm > not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, > the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be > the best fit for all of us. > > I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was > not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt > disoriented and very vunerable. > You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic > and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a > surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some > turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. > I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have > problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. > I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at > malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain > department. > I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about > my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions > strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it > was helpful. But not for outside travel. > > Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We > should chat about the PA center. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Desiree Oudinot > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Hi all, > I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there > are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. > Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect > that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be > criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question > seemed to imply that this happened regularly. > Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but > what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly > criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve > their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, > and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope > that this is a priority. > If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, > how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being > people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional > sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge > way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who > have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems > like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing > down like a house of cards! > I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't > think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind > them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. > > On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > > The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, > > some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was > > involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana > > Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively > > than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from > > individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of > > its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some > > folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the > > organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization > > is not accurate. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Good morning, > >> > >> After associating with, both on and off school time with students > >> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what > >> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life > >> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until > >> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. > >> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" > >> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw > >> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car > >> 408-209-3239wrote: > >>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able > >>> to > >>> attend a center.RJ > >>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a > >>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave > >>> Florida, > >>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive > >>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have > >>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> > >>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I > >>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training > >>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana > >>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. > >>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and > >>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. > >>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of > >>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. > >>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to > >>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy > >>>> of the NFB is totally different. > >>>> > >>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center > >>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best > >>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; > >>>> > >>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > >>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > >>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > >>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > >>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent > >>>>>> contractors > >>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > >>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > >>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > >>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help > >>>>>> most > >>>>>> and tend to get it least. > >>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > >>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > >>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > >>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > >>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > >>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > >>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > >>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > >>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > >>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > >>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > >>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > >>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't > >>>>>> know > >>>>>> exactly how. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arielle > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > >>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > >>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > >>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > >>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have > >>>>>>> helped > >>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is > >>>>>>> a > >>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of > >>> listing > >>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cindy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > >>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one > >>> can > >>>>>>>> read > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> RJ, > >>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and > >>> you'll > >>>>> get > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> answer. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >>>>>>>>> centers > >>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >>>>>>>>> To: > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Minh, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > >>>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > >>>>>>>>>> children, > >>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >>>>>>>>>> people, > >>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people > >>> without > >>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > >>>>>>>>>> Braille, > >>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the > >>> world > >>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based > >>> on > >>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > >>>>>>>>>> polite, > >>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > >>>>> appearing > >>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and > >>> mentally, > >>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > >>>>> nature. > >>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > >>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > >>>>> would > >>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as > >>> a > >>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > >>>>>>>>>> advantage > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > >>>>> background, > >>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do > >>> better > >>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Bridgit > >>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 > >>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha > >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > >>>>>>>>>> saying > >>>>>>>>>> how > >>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > >>>>> gain > >>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > >>>>>>>>>> success > >>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > >>> employment > >>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > >>>>>>>>>> these > >>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe > >>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few > >>> years > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> my > >>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > >>>>> learned > >>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was > >>> one > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; > >>> she > >>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > >>>>>>>>>> kitchen > >>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too > >>> much > >>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > >>>>> myself > >>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't > >>> see > >>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from > >>> society > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had > >>> many > >>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go > >>> out > >>>>>>>>>> there > >>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point > >>> is > >>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > >>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> experience. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Minh > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>>>>>> ail.com > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > >>>>>>>> net > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>>>>> ail.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett > >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>> ail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Kaiti > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>> ail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile .net > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co m > > > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 01:13:54 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 20:13:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5282D252.5050006@gmail.com> Hi Ashley, Firstly, sure, you can write me off list. Yes, at the Pittsburgh center, we were given constructive criticism. People who weren't working to their full potential were encouraged to do better. If someone had a stain on their clothes, they were taken aside to be told so. We had one instructor, in particular, who was very good at that. She was tactful without being deliberately hurtful. Sometimes, when you're in the heat of the moment, it's not always easy to tell what is meant to be harsh or not, but, in retrospect, I never felt personally attacked at all there. And I find this notion that personal attacks are acceptable to be just a bit disturbing. I've had a lot of struggles with spacial awareness, too, and I often got frustrated at large, confusing street crossings as well. I think this is mostly a result of having lived in a rural area for most of my life, so I never really had the experience of doing these things daily. Still, I think you're right that each individual's personality should be taken into account. I'm not implying that it isn't, necessarily, just that everyone is an individual and that there are many factors that drive them to be successful. On 11/12/2013 7:22 PM, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Desiree, > Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. > At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? > If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did > they say something and have you change? > I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good > eating skills at pittsburg; that is good. > > I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth > you can build self esteem then. > Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, > it seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not > garner self confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class > and my food came out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. > I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. > So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus > and harshness certainly does not help me. > My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I > easily am stressed out and have anxiety. > I do not take pressure well. > > So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. > I'm not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some > people, the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, > would not be the best fit for all of us. > > I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I > was not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt > disoriented and very vunerable. > You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the > traffic and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because > you need a surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars > came, but some turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got > sighted assistance. > I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I > have problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. > I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped > off at malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor > at a certain department. > I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better > about my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the > directions strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that > endeavor, I think it was helpful. But not for outside travel. > > Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? > We should chat about the PA center. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Desiree Oudinot > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Hi all, > I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there > are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. > Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect > that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be > criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question > seemed to imply that this happened regularly. > Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but > what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly > criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve > their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, > and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope > that this is a priority. > If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, > how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being > people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional > sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge > way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who > have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems > like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing > down like a house of cards! > I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't > think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind > them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. > > On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In >> fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself >> was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the >> Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively >> nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at >> all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the >> organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am >> sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I >> would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large >> brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Good morning, >>> >>> After associating with, both on and off school time with >>> students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a >>> sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation >>> could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a >>> student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain >>> damage instead. >>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi >>> handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process >>> everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well >>> for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't >>>> able to >>>> attend a center.RJ >>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I >>>> have a >>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>> Florida, >>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind >>>>> Inc. >>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, >>>>> and >>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>> >>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>> >>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what >>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I >>>>>>> know a >>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up >>>>>>> first as >>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very >>>>>>> least, >>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. >>>>>>> Those of >>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the >>>>>>> help most >>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle >>>>>>> down in >>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in >>>>>>> school >>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for >>>>>>> instance if >>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really >>>>>>> designed >>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of >>>>>>> academic >>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I >>>>>>> don't know >>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. >>>>>>>> I was >>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or >>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But >>>>>>>> that is a >>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>> listing >>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job >>>>>>>>> skills or >>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>> can >>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>> you'll >>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where >>>>>>>>>> rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my >>>>>>>>>>> sight >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families >>>>>>>>>>> adopted an >>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical >>>>>>>>>>> reasoning >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. >>>>>>>>>>> Some >>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this >>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>> world >>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you >>>>>>>>>>> present >>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>> mentally, >>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience >>>>>>>>>>> afforded >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a >>>>>>>>>>> spirit of >>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer >>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be >>>>>>>>>>> easy as >>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>> better >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they >>>>>>>>>>> need to >>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>>>>>>>>> and are >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>> years >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>> one >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>> she >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>> see >>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>> society >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>> out >>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the >>>>>>>>>>> independence >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good >>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>> >>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>> >>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> >> > -- Desiree From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 01:19:42 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 20:19:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <004501cee006$d4c6b160$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <004501cee006$d4c6b160$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <5282D3AE.2080300@gmail.com> RJ, I have to respectfully disagree with you here. I would be careful with the generalizations. You came in asking whether training centers could be beneficial. After receiving differing opinions, it now appears that you had your mind made up anyway, so why did you ask? I don't mean that as a criticism, I honestly am curious. But it seems to me that people have made the case for why they found training centers to be helpful. As Arielle said, though, most of the "evidence" you'll find in discussions of this nature is purely anecdotal. If it's cold, hard facts you want, it's sad to say, but you won't find them in this area. That's just how it is. But to devalue the experiences of others is something that I feel is wrong. I don't agree with many of the policies of NFB training centers; however, I feel like I can question such policies without attacking the people who benefitted from them or making people uncomfortable. I hope that you took something away from this discussion, even if it just cemented the fact in your mind that a training center isn't right for you. On 11/12/2013 7:25 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Well, I still stand by my statement Their is the real world and I learned my > cane travel and other blindness skills in the real world and not at some > training center NFB or otherwise! The reality is when rehab said > atempt college, I did it any way. The reality is, when rehab said that > ministry was not a realistic goal for a blind person, I am actually doing > it. The reality is I just graduated with a 3.8 from the seminary where > their were not any student disabilities services. Training centers for y. > the blind... what a joke! That's putting it bluntly. > -- That is reality! --- Original Message ----- > From: "Desiree Oudinot" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Hi all, >> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there >> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect >> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be >> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question >> seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but >> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly >> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve >> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, >> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope >> that this is a priority. >> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, >> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being >> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional >> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge >> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who >> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems >> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing >> down like a house of cards! >> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't >> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind >> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >> >> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In > fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was > involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center > for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than > anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals > in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training > centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the > federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a > large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Good morning, >>>> >>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with > students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of > what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life > path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much > later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" > people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at > it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't > able to >>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have > a >>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave > Florida, >>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind > Inc. >>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, > and >>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what > Bridgit >>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know > a >>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first > as >>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent > contractors >>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very > least, >>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those > of >>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help > most >>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down > in >>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in > school >>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance > if >>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really > designed >>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of > academic >>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't > know >>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I > was >>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or > not, >>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have > helped >>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that > is a >>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>> listing >>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills > or >>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>> you'll >>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where > rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my > sight >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted > an >>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical > reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. > Some >>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this > way, >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills > that >>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you > present >>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>> mentally, >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience > afforded >>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit > of >>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer > people >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy > as >>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself > with >>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>> better >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need > to >>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and > are >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>> years >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>> one >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>> society >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the > independence >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good > without >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>>> nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile > .net >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co > m >> -- >> Desiree >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > -- Desiree From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 01:23:35 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 20:23:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5282D497.3010904@gmail.com> Yes, I do think that docking pay or telling someone to change their clothes are fair. But it's really all in how it's done. Furthermore, the part of the message in question that I took issue with is, and I'm paraphrasing but the basic idea is intact, that personal boundaries were often crossed. I don't know in what context this was meant, but even as a blanket statement, that is not ok in my book. On 11/12/2013 7:46 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Desiree and Ashley, > > You bring up some very good points. I also don't know which message > this comment was in, but it could also be one person's perception of > the centers. > > In thinking about it, I can see why they dock pay for late arrival, > and make you change into clean clothes if you do not come in them, as > that teaches professionalism to those who might not have it already. > But, it depends on what the criticism is, and how it's being dished > out. Or, it could just be that certain people take things that aren't > meant to be criticisms more harshly than they are meant to be. > However, the centers do have students with psychological disorders and > other disabilities in addition to blindness, so I agree they need to > be mindful of that if what was said is truly the case. > > Again, I think the best people to ask about these sorts of things are > the directors themselves. > > I have never heard of someone being scorned in the federation for > having multiple disabilities, and think that if the federation were to > do so it would be totally counterintuitive to the disability rights > efforts going on. A lot of the laws the NFB is trying to push through > are not just for blind people, but for people with all kinds of > disabilities. "Fair wages for workers with disabilities act," not > "fair wages for blind workers." The Teach act is the same way, and so > on and so forth. I agree that if you experienced this, it was > probably just individuals who don't have a very good perspective on > disabilities, not the fault of the organization itself. > > On 11/12/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Desiree, >> Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. >> At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? >> If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they >> >> say something and have you change? >> I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating >> skills at pittsburg; that is good. >> >> I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you >> can build self esteem then. >> Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it >> seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self >> >> confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came >> out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. >> I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. >> So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and >> harshness certainly does not help me. >> My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am >> >> stressed out and have anxiety. >> I do not take pressure well. >> >> So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm >> not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, >> the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be >> the best fit for all of us. >> >> I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was >> not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt >> disoriented and very vunerable. >> You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic >> and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a >> surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some >> turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. >> I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have >> problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. >> I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at >> >> malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain >> department. >> I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about >> >> my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions >> strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it >> was helpful. But not for outside travel. >> >> Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We >> should chat about the PA center. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Desiree Oudinot >> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> Hi all, >> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there >> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect >> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be >> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question >> seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but >> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly >> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve >> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, >> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope >> that this is a priority. >> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, >> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being >> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional >> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge >> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who >> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems >> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing >> down like a house of cards! >> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't >> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind >> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >> >> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, >>> >>> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was >>> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana >>> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively >>> >>> than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from >>> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of >>> >>> its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some >>> >>> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the >>> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization >>> >>> is not accurate. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Good morning, >>>> >>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students >>>> >>>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >>>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life >>>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >>>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >>>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw >>>> >>>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >>>> 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able >>>>> >>>>> to >>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>>> Florida, >>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really >>>>>>>> designed >>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of >>>>>>>> academic >>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I >>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or >>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>> listing >>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>> you'll >>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where >>>>>>>>>>> rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my >>>>>>>>>>>> sight >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical >>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this >>>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>> mentally, >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself >>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>> better >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and >>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>> years >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>> one >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>> society >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> -- >> Desiree >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > -- Desiree From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 13 01:39:20 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:39:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> Message-ID: That was my message that you are referring to. What I was trying to get at is that, although most of the feedback is helpful, the staff are people and, just as other people do, they can go a little overboard. Well it is certainly unpleasant to receive an helpful feedback, it is indeed very reflective of the real world because, of course, people in the workplace can go overboard with their feedback. So, in a sense, the unhelpful feedback we occasionally received was both a blessing and a curse. It was a curse in that it was frankly not useful. It was a blessing in that we got to practice our communication skills. No one ever got blue over like a house of cards torn down to the ground. Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 5:32 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > > Hi all, > I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. > Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question seemed to imply that this happened regularly. > Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope that this is a priority. > If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing down like a house of cards! > I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. > >> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Good morning, >>> >>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to >>>> attend a center.RJ >>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, >>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>> >>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>> listing >>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>> can >>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>> you'll >>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>> world >>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>> mentally, >>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>> better >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>> years >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>> one >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>> she >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>> see >>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>> society >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>> out >>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 13 01:47:15 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:47:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4497C36F-5EFA-475A-BFE6-1458E2C5DA74@samobile.net> A further clarification. The occasional I'm helpfulness of feedback has nothing to do with structure discovery. It has everything to do with the fact that, naturally, staff are people too and will occasionally talk out of turn. As to the structure discovery aspect of it, they definitely do work toward building you up. The assignments you were given each day are partially dependent on the assignments you just finished. The idea is to keep you in the sweet spot between too much challenge and not enough challenge. So, let's use the cooking example. Say you made a piecrust and it turned out terribly. After discussing what might have gone wrong, the instructor might set you on a lesson to make something very similar the next day and might be a little more hands on with you through the process. If that works, and it most often does, the instructor might have you make something similar to what you just made with her help but on your own. The next time, you might make the piecrust with her help. The next time after that, you might make the piecrust by yourself. I can't tell you how many times I asked my cooking instructor to come and check something out. He would come and take a look at what I made and ask me a question or two about it. What does this feel like? Is this the texture you're looking for? If not, he might suggest something like adding flour or water. In the meantime, he spent some time explaining to me the basic principles of chemistry involved in cooking. Structure discovery isn't just about throwing somebody into the ocean and then telling them to sink or swim. A lot of people think about the discovery aspect and forget the structure. The amount of structure and instructor uses depends on The student and the amount of experience they bring to the situation. The teacher will also take a students self esteem and self efficacy into consideration when setting assignments and or asking questions. Is that help? Respectfully, Jedi Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 6:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Desiree, > Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. > At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? > If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they say something and have you change? > I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating skills at pittsburg; that is good. > > I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you can build self esteem then. > Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. > I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. > So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and harshness certainly does not help me. > My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am stressed out and have anxiety. > I do not take pressure well. > > So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be the best fit for all of us. > > I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt disoriented and very vunerable. > You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. > I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. > I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain department. > I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it was helpful. But not for outside travel. > > Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We should chat about the PA center. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Desiree Oudinot > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > Hi all, > I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there > are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. > Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect > that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be > criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question > seemed to imply that this happened regularly. > Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but > what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly > criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve > their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, > and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope > that this is a priority. > If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, > how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being > people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional > sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge > way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who > have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems > like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing > down like a house of cards! > I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't > think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind > them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. > >> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Good morning, >>> >>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to >>>> attend a center.RJ >>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, >>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>> >>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>> listing >>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>> can >>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>> you'll >>>>>> get >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>> without >>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>> world >>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>> mentally, >>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>> better >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>> years >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>> one >>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>> she >>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>> much >>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>> see >>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>> society >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>> many >>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>> out >>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Kaiti >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> ail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 13 01:49:57 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:49:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <002b01cee00a$6932ba30$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> <002b01cee00a$6932ba30$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: <2A1A137C-754C-4E52-A915-0B3CF4435C21@samobile.net> Wow! That's horrible! I can honestly tell you that the NFB centers are not that way. Not only have I trained at one as a student, but I have worked at one. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 6:50 PM, "RJ Sandefur" wrote: > > Ashley, The reason why I said Blind centers are a joke, is because after > what happened to me, I became depressed to the point where I'd go to class > at the center having not brushed my teath, I hadn't shaved in days, and my > room had not been cleaned, and this is how my parents found me. The staff > acted surprised and my fathers words were, "You people didn't teachmy son a > God damn thing!" So he took me out of there and my aunt had to teach me > herself! I'd come their willing to learn, and had left their a complete > nobody... a shell.. RJ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 7:22 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >> Desiree, >> Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. >> At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? >> If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did > they >> say something and have you change? >> I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating >> skills at pittsburg; that is good. >> >> I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you >> can build self esteem then. >> Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it >> seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner > self >> confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came >> out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. >> I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. >> So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and >> harshness certainly does not help me. >> My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily > am >> stressed out and have anxiety. >> I do not take pressure well. >> >> So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm >> not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, >> the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be >> the best fit for all of us. >> >> I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was >> not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt >> disoriented and very vunerable. >> You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic >> and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a >> surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some >> turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. >> I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have >> problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. >> I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off > at >> malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain >> department. >> I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better > about >> my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions >> strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it >> was helpful. But not for outside travel. >> >> Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We >> should chat about the PA center. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Desiree Oudinot >> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> Hi all, >> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there >> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect >> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be >> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question >> seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but >> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly >> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve >> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, >> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope >> that this is a priority. >> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, >> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being >> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional >> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge >> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who >> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems >> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing >> down like a house of cards! >> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't >> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind >> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >> >>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In > fact, >>> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was >>> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana >>> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor > negatively >>> than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from >>> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any > of >>> its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by > some >>> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the >>> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're > generalization >>> is not accurate. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Good morning, >>>> >>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with > students >>>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >>>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life >>>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >>>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >>>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they > threw >>>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >>>> 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't > able >>>>> to >>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have > a >>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>>> Florida, >>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind > Inc. >>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, > and >>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what > Bridgit >>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know > a >>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first > as >>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very > least, >>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those > of >>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down > in >>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in > school >>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance > if >>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really > designed >>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of > academic >>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I > was >>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or > not, >>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that > is >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>> listing >>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills > or >>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>> you'll >>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where > rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my > sight >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted > an >>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical > reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. > Some >>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this > way, >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills > that >>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you > present >>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>> mentally, >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience > afforded >>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit > of >>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer > people >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy > as >>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself > with >>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>> better >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need > to >>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and > are >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>> years >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>> one >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>> society >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the > independence >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good > without >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile > .net >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co > m >>> >> >> -- >> Desiree >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 13 01:55:34 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:55:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <5282D497.3010904@gmail.com> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> <5282D497.3010904@gmail.com> Message-ID: That was my message. And I don't think I said that boundaries are often crossed. What I said was that sometimes, staff occasionally offered criticism that, while probably well meant, wasn't really that helpful or necessary. And frankly, sometimes, as a student, I occasionally got criticism that I felt wasn't anyone's place to give. But that's just my opinion. If nothing else, it provided me an opportunity to practice self advocacy skills and to politely let people know that, in a given situation, a decision was mine to make. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > > Yes, I do think that docking pay or telling someone to change their clothes are fair. But it's really all in how it's done. > Furthermore, the part of the message in question that I took issue with is, and I'm paraphrasing but the basic idea is intact, that personal boundaries were often crossed. I don't know in what context this was meant, but even as a blanket statement, that is not ok in my book. > >> On 11/12/2013 7:46 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Desiree and Ashley, >> >> You bring up some very good points. I also don't know which message >> this comment was in, but it could also be one person's perception of >> the centers. >> >> In thinking about it, I can see why they dock pay for late arrival, >> and make you change into clean clothes if you do not come in them, as >> that teaches professionalism to those who might not have it already. >> But, it depends on what the criticism is, and how it's being dished >> out. Or, it could just be that certain people take things that aren't >> meant to be criticisms more harshly than they are meant to be. >> However, the centers do have students with psychological disorders and >> other disabilities in addition to blindness, so I agree they need to >> be mindful of that if what was said is truly the case. >> >> Again, I think the best people to ask about these sorts of things are >> the directors themselves. >> >> I have never heard of someone being scorned in the federation for >> having multiple disabilities, and think that if the federation were to >> do so it would be totally counterintuitive to the disability rights >> efforts going on. A lot of the laws the NFB is trying to push through >> are not just for blind people, but for people with all kinds of >> disabilities. "Fair wages for workers with disabilities act," not >> "fair wages for blind workers." The Teach act is the same way, and so >> on and so forth. I agree that if you experienced this, it was >> probably just individuals who don't have a very good perspective on >> disabilities, not the fault of the organization itself. >> >>> On 11/12/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Desiree, >>> Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. >>> At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? >>> If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they >>> >>> say something and have you change? >>> I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating >>> skills at pittsburg; that is good. >>> >>> I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you >>> can build self esteem then. >>> Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it >>> seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self >>> >>> confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came >>> out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. >>> I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. >>> So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and >>> harshness certainly does not help me. >>> My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am >>> >>> stressed out and have anxiety. >>> I do not take pressure well. >>> >>> So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm >>> not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, >>> the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be >>> the best fit for all of us. >>> >>> I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was >>> not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt >>> disoriented and very vunerable. >>> You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic >>> and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a >>> surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some >>> turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. >>> I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have >>> problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. >>> I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at >>> >>> malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain >>> department. >>> I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about >>> >>> my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions >>> strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it >>> was helpful. But not for outside travel. >>> >>> Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We >>> should chat about the PA center. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Desiree Oudinot >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there >>> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect >>> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be >>> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question >>> seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but >>> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly >>> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve >>> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, >>> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope >>> that this is a priority. >>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, >>> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being >>> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional >>> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge >>> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who >>> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems >>> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing >>> down like a house of cards! >>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't >>> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind >>> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >>> >>>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, >>>> >>>> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was >>>> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana >>>> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively >>>> >>>> than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from >>>> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of >>>> >>>> its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some >>>> >>>> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the >>>> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization >>>> >>>> is not accurate. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good morning, >>>>> >>>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students >>>>> >>>>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >>>>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life >>>>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >>>>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >>>>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw >>>>> >>>>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >>>>> 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>>>> Florida, >>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really >>>>>>>>> designed >>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of >>>>>>>>> academic >>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or >>>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>>> listing >>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>>> you'll >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where >>>>>>>>>>>> rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my >>>>>>>>>>>>> sight >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this >>>>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>>> mentally, >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>>> better >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and >>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>>> years >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>>> one >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>>> society >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>> >>> -- >>> Desiree >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From sgermano at asu.edu Wed Nov 13 01:55:39 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:55:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <004501cee006$d4c6b160$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <004501cee006$d4c6b160$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Just my opinion but not really a great attitude from someone going into the ministry. There were many kids I knew that did not get taught skills by their parents. Their parents basically thought they could not do anything. So for those people there needs to be a place to learn. Many public schools do the bare minimum for braille, O&M and technology. My TVI didn't even have the forethought to tell me about monocular for seeing the board. It was my father who bought me mini binoculars to see if that would work. There are people who suddenly lose thier sight adn in some cases are abandoned by spouses because of it. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 5:25 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote: > Well, I still stand by my statement Their is the real world and I learned > my > cane travel and other blindness skills in the real world and not at some > training center NFB or otherwise! The reality is when rehab said > atempt college, I did it any way. The reality is, when rehab said that > ministry was not a realistic goal for a blind person, I am actually doing > it. The reality is I just graduated with a 3.8 from the seminary where > their were not any student disabilities services. Training centers for y. > the blind... what a joke! That's putting it bluntly. > -- That is reality! --- Original Message ----- > From: "Desiree Oudinot" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > > Hi all, > > I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there > > are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. > > Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect > > that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be > > criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question > > seemed to imply that this happened regularly. > > Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but > > what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly > > criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve > > their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, > > and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope > > that this is a priority. > > If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, > > how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being > > people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional > > sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge > > way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who > > have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems > > like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing > > down like a house of cards! > > I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't > > think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind > > them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. > > > > On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > > > The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In > fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was > involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana > Center > for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than > anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals > in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training > centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the > federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a > large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis > wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Good morning, > > >> > > >> After associating with, both on and off school time with > students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of > what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The > life > path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much > later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. > > >> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" > people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw > at > it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car > 408-209-3239wrote: > > >>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't > able to > > >>> attend a center.RJ > > >>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have > a > > >>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave > Florida, > > >>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive > > >>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have > > >>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. > > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" > > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >>> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM > > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> Hi all, > > >>>> > > >>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so > I > > >>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training > > >>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana > > >>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind > Inc. > > >>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, > and > > >>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. > > >>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need > of > > >>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. > > >>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to > > >>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive > philosophy > > >>>> of the NFB is totally different. > > >>>> > > >>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center > > >>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best > > >>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; > > >>>> > > >>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > >>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ > > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > > >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM > > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Hi all, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what > Bridgit > > >>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I > know > a > > >>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > > >>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first > as > > >>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent > contractors > > >>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very > least, > > >>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > > >>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those > of > > >>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help > most > > >>>>>> and tend to get it least. > > >>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who > remain > > >>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down > in > > >>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in > school > > >>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > > >>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't > address, > > >>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > > >>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > > >>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance > if > > >>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness > community > > >>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really > designed > > >>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed > to > > >>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of > academic > > >>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't > know > > >>>>>> exactly how. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Arielle > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > > >>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how > it > > >>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I > was > > >>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or > not, > > >>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have > helped > > >>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that > is a > > >>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of > > >>> listing > > >>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> Cindy > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > > >>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills > or > > >>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any > one > > >>> can > > >>>>>>>> read > > >>>>>>>> a > > >>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > > >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> RJ, > > >>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and > > >>> you'll > > >>>>> get > > >>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>> answer. > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > > >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where > rehabilitation > > >>>>>>>>> centers > > >>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > > >>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > > >>>>>>>>> To: > > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Minh, > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my > sight > > >>>>>>>>>> as > > >>>>>>>>>> an > > >>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > > >>>>>>>>>> children, > > >>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted > an > > >>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical > reasoning > > >>>>>>>>>> skills > > >>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. > Some > > >>>>>>>>>> people, > > >>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this > way, > > >>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people > > >>> without > > >>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > > >>>>>>>>>> Braille, > > >>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > > >>>>>>>>>> skills > > >>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills > that > > >>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the > > >>> world > > >>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you > present > > >>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you > based > > >>> on > > >>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident > and > > >>>>>>>>>> polite, > > >>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > > >>>>> appearing > > >>>>>>>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and > > >>> mentally, > > >>>>> an > > >>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > > >>>>> nature. > > >>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience > afforded > > >>>>>>>>>> you > > >>>>>>>>>> in > > >>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > > >>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit > of > > >>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer > people > > >>>>> would > > >>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy > as > > >>> a > > >>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself > with > > >>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > > >>>>>>>>>> advantage > > >>>>>>>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > > >>>>> background, > > >>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do > > >>> better > > >>>>> in > > >>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Bridgit > > >>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 > > >>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > > >>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha > > >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > > >>>>>>>>>> saying > > >>>>>>>>>> how > > >>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need > to > > >>>>> gain > > >>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > > >>>>>>>>>> success > > >>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > > >>> employment > > >>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and > are > > >>>>>>>>>> these > > >>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe > > >>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few > > >>> years > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>> my > > >>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > > >>>>> learned > > >>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was > > >>> one > > >>>>> of > > >>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented > together; > > >>> she > > >>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > > >>>>>>>>>> kitchen > > >>>>>>>>>> and > > >>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too > > >>> much > > >>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I > teach > > >>>>> myself > > >>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I > can't > > >>> see > > >>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from > > >>> society > > >>>>> to > > >>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had > > >>> many > > >>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go > > >>> out > > >>>>>>>>>> there > > >>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My > point > > >>> is > > >>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the > independence > > >>>>>>>>>> skills > > >>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good > without > > >>>>>>>>>> the > > >>>>>>>>>> experience. > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> Minh > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > >>>>> for > > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > > >>>>>>>>> ail.com > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > >>> for > > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink > . > > >>>>>>>> net > > >>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > >>> for > > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > > >>>>>>>> ail.com > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info > > >>> for > > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett > > >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > > >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>>>> > > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > >>>>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > > >>>>> ail.com > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > >>>>> nabs-l: > > >>>>> > > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > > >>> l.com > > >>>> > > >>>> -- > > >>>> Kaiti > > >>>> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ > > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > > >>> nabs-l: > > >>> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > > >>> ail.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> nabs-l mailing list > > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> nabs-l mailing list > > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile > .net > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co > m > > > > > > > -- > > Desiree > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > ail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 02:05:20 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:05:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5282DE60.7060007@gmail.com> Fair enough. How often would you say that unhelpful feedback occurred, though? Because, frankly, if it happened a lot, that is not at all the same as a boss putting you down. You have other options if that happens. And, if there are no other options, such as needing to put food on the table for your family, most people can at least use that as an incentive to deal with a stressful job. What similar incentive is there in a training center environment? On 11/12/2013 8:39 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > That was my message that you are referring to. What I was trying to get at is that, although most of the feedback is helpful, the staff are people and, just as other people do, they can go a little overboard. Well it is certainly unpleasant to receive an helpful feedback, it is indeed very reflective of the real world because, of course, people in the workplace can go overboard with their feedback. So, in a sense, the unhelpful feedback we occasionally received was both a blessing and a curse. It was a curse in that it was frankly not useful. It was a blessing in that we got to practice our communication skills. No one ever got blue over like a house of cards torn down to the ground. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 5:32 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope that this is a priority. >> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing down like a house of cards! >> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >> >>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Good morning, >>>> >>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to >>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, >>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>> >>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>> listing >>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>> you'll >>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>> mentally, >>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>> better >>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>> years >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>> one >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>> society >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> >> -- >> Desiree >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > . > -- Desiree From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 02:12:24 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:12:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <2A1A137C-754C-4E52-A915-0B3CF4435C21@samobile.net> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> <002b01cee00a$6932ba30$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <2A1A137C-754C-4E52-A915-0B3CF4435C21@samobile.net> Message-ID: Hi all, Of course everyone's experience at a center will be different, even at the same center. In my seven months at LCB I never saw anyone get torn down or publicly embarrassed. When I was given critical feedback it was always in private and always accompanied with constructive suggestions. I never heard of anyone being sent home due to what they were wearing and I think maybe center dress codes have gotten more relaxed in recent years. Occasionally students were docked pay if their apartments failed to be clean after repeated inspections and specific feedback about what needed to be cleaned. Also, in general the instructors care more about the end product than they care about the challenges and mistakes we might make while getting to it. For example, if being sent on an independent travel route, they care that we eventually found the destination, even if we experienced some difficulty with street crossings and such while finding it. If I made a mistake my instructors were always encouraging and helped me to learn how to do better the next time without belittling me because of it. I liked this approach much better than that of traditional instructors who would scrutinize every move I made and then jump in and correct me as soon as I messed up instead of waiting to see if I could solve the problem on my own like the LCB instructors did. Of course they would jump in if there was a real danger involved, but that kind of thing rarely happened. Of course training is stressful, but I found that overall the students and staff made me feel good about myself. At the same time, however, they didn't praise me for every little thing but only when I had done something truly impressive, so that I could set high standards for myself. Best, Arielle On 11/12/13, Jedi Moerke wrote: > Wow! That's horrible! I can honestly tell you that the NFB centers are not > that way. Not only have I trained at one as a student, but I have worked at > one. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 6:50 PM, "RJ Sandefur" >> wrote: >> >> Ashley, The reason why I said Blind centers are a joke, is because after >> what happened to me, I became depressed to the point where I'd go to >> class >> at the center having not brushed my teath, I hadn't shaved in days, and >> my >> room had not been cleaned, and this is how my parents found me. The staff >> acted surprised and my fathers words were, "You people didn't teachmy son >> a >> God damn thing!" So he took me out of there and my aunt had to teach me >> herself! I'd come their willing to learn, and had left their a complete >> nobody... a shell.. RJ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 7:22 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >>> Desiree, >>> Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. >>> At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? >>> If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did >> they >>> say something and have you change? >>> I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating >>> skills at pittsburg; that is good. >>> >>> I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth >>> you >>> can build self esteem then. >>> Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it >>> seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner >> self >>> confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food >>> came >>> out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. >>> I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. >>> So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and >>> harshness certainly does not help me. >>> My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I >>> easily >> am >>> stressed out and have anxiety. >>> I do not take pressure well. >>> >>> So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. >>> I'm >>> not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some >>> people, >>> the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not >>> be >>> the best fit for all of us. >>> >>> I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I >>> was >>> not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt >>> disoriented and very vunerable. >>> You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the >>> traffic >>> and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need >>> a >>> surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but >>> some >>> turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. >>> I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have >>> problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. >>> I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped >>> off >> at >>> malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a >>> certain >>> department. >>> I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better >> about >>> my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions >>> strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think >>> it >>> was helpful. But not for outside travel. >>> >>> Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We >>> should chat about the PA center. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Desiree Oudinot >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there >>> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect >>> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be >>> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question >>> seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but >>> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly >>> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve >>> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, >>> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope >>> that this is a priority. >>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, >>> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being >>> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional >>> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge >>> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who >>> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems >>> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing >>> down like a house of cards! >>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't >>> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind >>> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >>> >>>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In >> fact, >>>> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was >>>> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana >>>> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor >> negatively >>>> than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from >>>> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any >> of >>>> its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by >> some >>>> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the >>>> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're >> generalization >>>> is not accurate. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good morning, >>>>> >>>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with >> students >>>>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >>>>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The >>>>> life >>>>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >>>>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >>>>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they >> threw >>>>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >>>>> 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't >> able >>>>>> to >>>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have >> a >>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>>>> Florida, >>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind >> Inc. >>>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, >> and >>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive >>>>>>> philosophy >>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what >> Bridgit >>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I >>>>>>>>> know >> a >>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first >> as >>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very >> least, >>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those >> of >>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who >>>>>>>>> remain >>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down >> in >>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in >> school >>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't >>>>>>>>> address, >>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance >> if >>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really >> designed >>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of >> academic >>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I >> was >>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or >> not, >>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that >> is >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>>> listing >>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills >> or >>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>>> you'll >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where >> rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my >> sight >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted >> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical >> reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. >> Some >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this >> way, >>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills >> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you >> present >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you >>>>>>>>>>>>> based >>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>>> mentally, >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience >> afforded >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit >> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer >> people >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy >> as >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself >> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>>> better >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need >> to >>>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and >> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>>> years >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>>> one >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented >>>>>>>>>>>>> together; >>>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> teach >>>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>>> society >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My >>>>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the >> independence >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good >> without >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile >> .net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co >> m >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Desiree >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >> net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> ail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 02:27:56 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:27:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers and volunteers In-Reply-To: <001201cedffc$44e00dd0$cea02970$@gmail.com> References: <012077CC-D8E0-4FE2-8017-8E786C3D5647@samobile.net> <001201cedffc$44e00dd0$cea02970$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I'm not sure if it could be done nationally, but it's an excellent project for NFB chapters and affiliates and not terribly hard to manage. Just set up some kind of sign-up system where members could sign up as volunteers, give their location, contact info and skills they're able to teach. Then new members, newly blind folks, parents of blind children, etc. could approach the chapter or affiliate asking for a match. It's much like a mentoring program except that instead of just saying "you two, get together and Joe will mentor John", Joe is agreeing to teach specific skills to John. A good coordinator could set up regular meetings for all the teacher-student pairs to keep them meeting regularly until the student feels comfortable and confident with the training. So many times I've wanted to set up a parent whose child is being denied Braille instruction with a competent Braille reader who has the time and willingness to provide some Braille instruction, but I don't know who to recommend. A local or state-wide volunteer system would organize all that. I agree that we shouldn't try to infiltrate the rehab system with volunteers. But eventually, if volunteers gain enough hours of experience, they could get references and be more equipped to get a job after coming out of a certification program. And for some things, like technology training, it's not that hard to get certified. And, after some volunteer experience blind folks could put themselves out on the market as independent contractors, and while some potential clients might not be able to hire a teacher without financial help, others can and may be willing to do so especially if rehab has rejected them for whatever reason. So let's go to our chapters and get this going! Arielle On 11/12/13, Joe wrote: > Another way to go about it is just to offer your time if you know someone > needs the help. When I moved to DC a real nice lady from a Virginia chapter > spent a Saturday morning going over the subway system with me so that I > would not look like a lost tourist. Almost a year later I had the chance to > work with an exchange student from Spain to help him figure out how to run > his washer and dryer and how to get from his apartment to work. I've spent > countless hours helping people out with JAWS. Volunteer programs would be > awesome, but sometimes it's just a matter of offering a hand when you know > someone needs the help. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Moerke > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:53 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers and volunteers > > It would be very difficult to establish volunteer programs like the ones > you're thinking of. The rehabilitation field is filled with ego. Many in > the > rehabilitation Field, especially dealing with rehab teaching and > orientation > and mobility, feel that you need special certifications in each in order to > teach the basic skills. So to step in and offer your uncertified self as a > volunteer teacher would be a kind of stepping on the toes. More than > likely, > they will tell you that it's not safe for whatever reason. Mind you, I'm > talking about traditional rehabilitation systems which make up the majority > of the country. Your better bet is to create a sort of program that is > completely outside of the rehabilitation system. I have operated similar > programs through my local chapter of the Federation and it works quite > well. > If nothing else, our volunteer services provided extra training on top of > whatever the person was getting from rehabilitation. It also filled gaps > for > those who, for whatever reason, couldn't get rehabilitation teaching. That > also includes computers and braille & mobility. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter > wrote: >> >> Arielle, >> >> Is there any way some initiative could be developed for such >> volunteer-based programs? It seems like a huge undertaking, and I >> don't even know if something like this can be done on a national >> level. Just thinking out loud, so to speak, smile. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 21 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 >> From: Arielle Silverman >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> Hi all, >> >> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >> and tend to get it least. >> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >> exactly how. >> >> Arielle >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40sa >> mobile.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From sgermano at asu.edu Wed Nov 13 02:33:24 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:33:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers and volunteers In-Reply-To: References: <012077CC-D8E0-4FE2-8017-8E786C3D5647@samobile.net> <001201cedffc$44e00dd0$cea02970$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think this is a great idea! On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Arielle Silverman < Arielle.Silverman at asu.edu> wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm not sure if it could be done nationally, but it's an excellent > project for NFB chapters and affiliates and not terribly hard to > manage. Just set up some kind of sign-up system where members could > sign up as volunteers, give their location, contact info and skills > they're able to teach. Then new members, newly blind folks, parents of > blind children, etc. could approach the chapter or affiliate asking > for a match. It's much like a mentoring program except that instead of > just saying "you two, get together and Joe will mentor John", Joe is > agreeing to teach specific skills to John. A good coordinator could > set up regular meetings for all the teacher-student pairs to keep them > meeting regularly until the student feels comfortable and confident > with the training. So many times I've wanted to set up a parent whose > child is being denied Braille instruction with a competent Braille > reader who has the time and willingness to provide some Braille > instruction, but I don't know who to recommend. A local or state-wide > volunteer system would organize all that. > > I agree that we shouldn't try to infiltrate the rehab system with > volunteers. But eventually, if volunteers gain enough hours of > experience, they could get references and be more equipped to get a > job after coming out of a certification program. And for some things, > like technology training, it's not that hard to get certified. And, > after some volunteer experience blind folks could put themselves out > on the market as independent contractors, and while some potential > clients might not be able to hire a teacher without financial help, > others can and may be willing to do so especially if rehab has > rejected them for whatever reason. > > So let's go to our chapters and get this going! > > Arielle > > On 11/12/13, Joe wrote: > > Another way to go about it is just to offer your time if you know someone > > needs the help. When I moved to DC a real nice lady from a Virginia > chapter > > spent a Saturday morning going over the subway system with me so that I > > would not look like a lost tourist. Almost a year later I had the chance > to > > work with an exchange student from Spain to help him figure out how to > run > > his washer and dryer and how to get from his apartment to work. I've > spent > > countless hours helping people out with JAWS. Volunteer programs would be > > awesome, but sometimes it's just a matter of offering a hand when you > know > > someone needs the help. > > > > Joe > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi Moerke > > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:53 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers and volunteers > > > > It would be very difficult to establish volunteer programs like the ones > > you're thinking of. The rehabilitation field is filled with ego. Many in > > the > > rehabilitation Field, especially dealing with rehab teaching and > > orientation > > and mobility, feel that you need special certifications in each in order > to > > teach the basic skills. So to step in and offer your uncertified self as > a > > volunteer teacher would be a kind of stepping on the toes. More than > > likely, > > they will tell you that it's not safe for whatever reason. Mind you, I'm > > talking about traditional rehabilitation systems which make up the > majority > > of the country. Your better bet is to create a sort of program that is > > completely outside of the rehabilitation system. I have operated similar > > programs through my local chapter of the Federation and it works quite > > well. > > If nothing else, our volunteer services provided extra training on top of > > whatever the person was getting from rehabilitation. It also filled gaps > > for > > those who, for whatever reason, couldn't get rehabilitation teaching. > That > > also includes computers and braille & mobility. > > > > Respectfully, > > Jedi > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter > > wrote: > >> > >> Arielle, > >> > >> Is there any way some initiative could be developed for such > >> volunteer-based programs? It seems like a huge undertaking, and I > >> don't even know if something like this can be done on a national > >> level. Just thinking out loud, so to speak, smile. > >> > >> Bridgit > >> Message: 21 > >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:33:02 -0700 > >> From: Arielle Silverman > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >> Message-ID: > >> > >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > >> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > >> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > >> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > >> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > >> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > >> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > >> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > >> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > >> and tend to get it least. > >> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > >> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > >> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > >> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > >> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > >> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > >> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > >> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > >> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > >> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > >> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > >> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > >> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > >> exactly how. > >> > >> Arielle > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40sa > >> mobile.net > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From gpaikens at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 02:34:18 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:34:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question In-Reply-To: <21192BA1FDFE427CAF8B216D3E4AD39B@JAWS> References: <21192BA1FDFE427CAF8B216D3E4AD39B@JAWS> Message-ID: Para = paraprofessional. Other terms for it include Educational Assistant, Teacher Assistant, Instructional assistant. Basically they work in schools to assist teachers in whatever ways they need. Often student's who are blind are assigned a para in situations where they need access to visual info but do not need direct instruction from a teacher of blind students. If done well, it can be beneficial to everyone involved but there are many negatives associated with the way it is often done, as I'm sure you have gathered from the views expressed in this thread. Greg Aikens, M. Ed. Teacher of students who are blind and visually impaired Cobb County School District gpaikens at gmail.com On Nov 12, 2013, at 7:07 PM, "I. C. Bray" wrote: > Can someone please tell me what is a "Para"? > I have never heard the term used... > > Ian > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:00 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question > > > : JJ, > : > : Legally, you and your parents have the right to deny a para. I'm totally > : blind and cook and bake almost daily. I do this for my family and have > : also cooked for large groups, up to 30 people, all without sighted help. > : Be forthright and persistent with this. Be diplomatic, but it's your > : right to deny a full-time para. > : > : Bridgit > : Message: 17 > : Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:11:12 -0700 > : From: johnnie Jean duran > : To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question > : Message-ID: > : > : > : Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > : > : Dear National Association of Blind Students, > : As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student attending > : O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is allowed > : to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking > : (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the > : cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in > : there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good > : at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that I > : need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? > : Do I need an advocate? > : Thanks, > : JJ > : > : > : _______________________________________________ > : nabs-l mailing list > : nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 13 03:19:01 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 22:19:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <004501cee006$d4c6b160$0902a8c0@S0032244625> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com><5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <004501cee006$d4c6b160$0902a8c0@S0032244625> Message-ID: Rj, Even though I have not attended a NFb center, and do not plan to as it does not fit my style of learning, I have to respectfully disagree with you. You contend that training centers are not reality. What I and others say is it is reality. You go out and interact with the world and still learn. If you can get all the skills at home then great. But as many of us said, skill training at home is often not available. Some communities have training options in the community For instance, NC has the Metrolina association for the blind, GA has the center for the visually impaired, and Florida has the Florida center for the blind which does community home based service as well as center based. Sighted people have to manage a house, travel in the community and use technology. Blind people have to function doing these things too, just a different way. Centers are often a means to the end of achieving independence. You have your mind made up so I am not attempting to change it. However, please don't devalue other people's experiences and successes at centers. Centers are important, particularly for those who lost vision. If they did not get training, they would likely just be at home doing nothing. So its not a joke. Rj, you sound successful and surely you had training elsewhere. Surely you can use a cane and walk around; surely, you must know braille and use technology to study the biblical text and commentary. You must have gotten your skills somewhere. Centers are definitely reality; sometimes not so much, but nor is college the full reality either. Surely, RJ, you should be able to understand our point. I'll end there. I just hope you understand that even though your center experience sucked, that does not make all centers invalid. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 7:25 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Well, I still stand by my statement Their is the real world and I learned my cane travel and other blindness skills in the real world and not at some training center NFB or otherwise! The reality is when rehab said atempt college, I did it any way. The reality is, when rehab said that ministry was not a realistic goal for a blind person, I am actually doing it. The reality is I just graduated with a 3.8 from the seminary where their were not any student disabilities services. Training centers for y. the blind... what a joke! That's putting it bluntly. -- That is reality! --- Original Message ----- From: "Desiree Oudinot" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > Hi all, > I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there > are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. > Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect > that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be > criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question > seemed to imply that this happened regularly. > Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but > what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly > criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve > their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, > and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope > that this is a priority. > If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, > how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being > people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional > sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge > way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who > have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems > like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing > down like a house of cards! > I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't > think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind > them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. > > On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > > The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Good morning, > >> > >> After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. > >> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: > >>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to > >>> attend a center.RJ > >>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a > >>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, > >>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive > >>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have > >>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" > >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>> > >>> > >>>> Hi all, > >>>> > >>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I > >>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training > >>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana > >>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. > >>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and > >>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. > >>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of > >>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. > >>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to > >>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy > >>>> of the NFB is totally different. > >>>> > >>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center > >>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best > >>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; > >>>> > >>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" > >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit > >>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a > >>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great > >>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as > >>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors > >>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, > >>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with > >>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of > >>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most > >>>>>> and tend to get it least. > >>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain > >>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in > >>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school > >>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to > >>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, > >>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who > >>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to > >>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if > >>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community > >>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed > >>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to > >>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic > >>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know > >>>>>> exactly how. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Arielle > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > >>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > >>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was > >>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, > >>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped > >>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a > >>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of > >>> listing > >>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cindy > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: > >>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or > >>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one > >>> can > >>>>>>>> read > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" > >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> RJ, > >>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and > >>> you'll > >>>>> get > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>> answer. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM > >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation > >>>>>>>>> centers > >>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > >>>>>>>>> To: > >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM > >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Minh, > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight > >>>>>>>>>> as > >>>>>>>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially > >>>>>>>>>> children, > >>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an > >>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some > >>>>>>>>>> people, > >>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, > >>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people > >>> without > >>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like > >>>>>>>>>> Braille, > >>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that > >>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the > >>> world > >>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present > >>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based > >>> on > >>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and > >>>>>>>>>> polite, > >>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room > >>>>> appearing > >>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and > >>> mentally, > >>>>> an > >>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human > >>>>> nature. > >>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded > >>>>>>>>>> you > >>>>>>>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and > >>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of > >>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people > >>>>> would > >>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as > >>> a > >>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with > >>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the > >>>>>>>>>> advantage > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this > >>>>> background, > >>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do > >>> better > >>>>> in > >>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Bridgit > >>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 > >>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 > >>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha > >>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > >>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>> > >>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep > >>>>>>>>>> saying > >>>>>>>>>> how > >>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > >>>>> gain > >>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > >>>>>>>>>> success > >>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > >>> employment > >>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are > >>>>>>>>>> these > >>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? > >>>>>>>>>> Maybe > >>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few > >>> years > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> my > >>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I > >>>>> learned > >>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was > >>> one > >>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; > >>> she > >>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the > >>>>>>>>>> kitchen > >>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too > >>> much > >>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach > >>>>> myself > >>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't > >>> see > >>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from > >>> society > >>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had > >>> many > >>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go > >>> out > >>>>>>>>>> there > >>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point > >>> is > >>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence > >>>>>>>>>> skills > >>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without > >>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> experience. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Minh > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>> for > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>>>>>> ail.com > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > >>>>>>>> net > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>>>>> ail.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>> for > >>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Cindy Bennett > >>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > >>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>>>> ail.com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai > >>> l.com > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Kaiti > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > >>> ail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile .net > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co m > > > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 13 03:22:19 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 22:22:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625><18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC><260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625><007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625><004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625><20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com><5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com><2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC><5282D497.3010904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1EB889108F1D406A9FEC0EC807791212@OwnerPC> Jedi, Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like they treated people respectfully but may go overboard some but as you said all humans do this sometimes. I am glad LCB has the accountability to students to have them dress cleanly. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Moerke Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world That was my message. And I don't think I said that boundaries are often crossed. What I said was that sometimes, staff occasionally offered criticism that, while probably well meant, wasn't really that helpful or necessary. And frankly, sometimes, as a student, I occasionally got criticism that I felt wasn't anyone's place to give. But that's just my opinion. If nothing else, it provided me an opportunity to practice self advocacy skills and to politely let people know that, in a given situation, a decision was mine to make. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Desiree Oudinot > wrote: > > Yes, I do think that docking pay or telling someone to change their > clothes are fair. But it's really all in how it's done. > Furthermore, the part of the message in question that I took issue with > is, and I'm paraphrasing but the basic idea is intact, that personal > boundaries were often crossed. I don't know in what context this was > meant, but even as a blanket statement, that is not ok in my book. > >> On 11/12/2013 7:46 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Desiree and Ashley, >> >> You bring up some very good points. I also don't know which message >> this comment was in, but it could also be one person's perception of >> the centers. >> >> In thinking about it, I can see why they dock pay for late arrival, >> and make you change into clean clothes if you do not come in them, as >> that teaches professionalism to those who might not have it already. >> But, it depends on what the criticism is, and how it's being dished >> out. Or, it could just be that certain people take things that aren't >> meant to be criticisms more harshly than they are meant to be. >> However, the centers do have students with psychological disorders and >> other disabilities in addition to blindness, so I agree they need to >> be mindful of that if what was said is truly the case. >> >> Again, I think the best people to ask about these sorts of things are >> the directors themselves. >> >> I have never heard of someone being scorned in the federation for >> having multiple disabilities, and think that if the federation were to >> do so it would be totally counterintuitive to the disability rights >> efforts going on. A lot of the laws the NFB is trying to push through >> are not just for blind people, but for people with all kinds of >> disabilities. "Fair wages for workers with disabilities act," not >> "fair wages for blind workers." The Teach act is the same way, and so >> on and so forth. I agree that if you experienced this, it was >> probably just individuals who don't have a very good perspective on >> disabilities, not the fault of the organization itself. >> >>> On 11/12/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> Desiree, >>> Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. >>> At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? >>> If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did >>> they >>> >>> say something and have you change? >>> I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating >>> skills at pittsburg; that is good. >>> >>> I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth >>> you >>> can build self esteem then. >>> Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it >>> seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner >>> self >>> >>> confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food >>> came >>> out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. >>> I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. >>> So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and >>> harshness certainly does not help me. >>> My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I >>> easily am >>> >>> stressed out and have anxiety. >>> I do not take pressure well. >>> >>> So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. >>> I'm >>> not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some >>> people, >>> the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not >>> be >>> the best fit for all of us. >>> >>> I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I >>> was >>> not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt >>> disoriented and very vunerable. >>> You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the >>> traffic >>> and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need >>> a >>> surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but >>> some >>> turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. >>> I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have >>> problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. >>> I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped >>> off at >>> >>> malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a >>> certain >>> department. >>> I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better >>> about >>> >>> my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions >>> strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think >>> it >>> was helpful. But not for outside travel. >>> >>> Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We >>> should chat about the PA center. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Desiree Oudinot >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there >>> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect >>> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be >>> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question >>> seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but >>> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly >>> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve >>> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, >>> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope >>> that this is a priority. >>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, >>> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being >>> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional >>> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge >>> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who >>> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems >>> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing >>> down like a house of cards! >>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't >>> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind >>> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >>> >>>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In >>>> fact, >>>> >>>> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was >>>> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana >>>> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor >>>> negatively >>>> >>>> than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from >>>> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any >>>> of >>>> >>>> its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by >>>> some >>>> >>>> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the >>>> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're >>>> generalization >>>> >>>> is not accurate. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good morning, >>>>> >>>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with >>>>> students >>>>> >>>>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >>>>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The >>>>> life >>>>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >>>>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >>>>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they >>>>> threw >>>>> >>>>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >>>>> 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't >>>>>> able >>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have >>>>>> a >>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>>>> Florida, >>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind >>>>>>> Inc. >>>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive >>>>>>> philosophy >>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what >>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very >>>>>>>>> least, >>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who >>>>>>>>> remain >>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in >>>>>>>>> school >>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't >>>>>>>>> address, >>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness >>>>>>>>> community >>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really >>>>>>>>> designed >>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of >>>>>>>>> academic >>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I >>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or >>>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>>> listing >>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any >>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>>> you'll >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where >>>>>>>>>>>> rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my >>>>>>>>>>>>> sight >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical >>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Some >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this >>>>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you >>>>>>>>>>>>> present >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you >>>>>>>>>>>>> based >>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>>> mentally, >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience >>>>>>>>>>>>> afforded >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer >>>>>>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>>> better >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and >>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>>> years >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>>> one >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented >>>>>>>>>>>>> together; >>>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> teach >>>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I >>>>>>>>>>>>> can't >>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>>> society >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My >>>>>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the >>>>>>>>>>>>> independence >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good >>>>>>>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>> >>> -- >>> Desiree >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 03:24:49 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:24:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why do you assume it's the training center and not employers still buying into stereotypes and negative perceptions? And the 70% unemployment rate always mentioned is a little misleading because this number includes children, seniors and those enable to work for health reasons. So while the number is still too high, it's not 70%. I know blind people more than capable, out there trying to find work, and many employers won't give them the time of day merely because they are blind. This isn't always the case, but in my experience, the untrained, under-qualified blind people sitting at home don't want to work and are not out looking for employment. So the blind people seeking jobs tend to be more than capable of working, but employers don't want to hire blind people. This recently happened to my husband because the company didn't want to deal with supplying or allowing accomodations. An investigation is currently underway with this company now. He's more than qualified with his degree, 15 years of work experience and currently pursuing a second degree. And with the current economic situation, many people are sitting at home unemployed. For the first time in years, college graduates are back living with parents because the jobs just aren't there. So there's more to this picture than you present. For someone going on about living in the real world, you should really consider all the variables and present a bigger picture because there's more to this story. Bridgit Message: 7 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:47:31 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Message-ID: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but the proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone says they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers who sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? Apparently From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 03:32:28 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:32:28 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, Couldn't you have accessed newspapers via online or even newsline? I had to scour newspapers for an English class and one of my public relations classes, and I accessed them online with few problems. Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:01:25 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Message-ID: <4DF4DBA07EA74CA296F25E6E0789E8AC at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original RJ, I'm in the minority here. But I have the same questions. I have to wonder if the students at the nfb centers really got all the skills and confidence they need to get out and find a job. I, too, have met some blind people who went to centers who are not employed. I have not met anyone sitting at home with family. But they do sit around collecting welfare checks in order to live a basic life. Its very very sad. RJ, it just goes to show that no matter what training you get, it does not gaurantee success. Some people simply don't have the gusto or advocacy skills to get jobs. Its harder to get a job as a blind person. You have to advocate and educate the employers. I remember calling up a nonprofit, national crime prevention council, NCPC, to get a communications internship. I was responding to an ad on my school's career database. I had to explain who I was and see if the job was too visual to do. It turns out that I could not do a main part of the job as it involved reading newspapers to search for certain stories. So, long story short, I explained I could not read printed newspapers but I could do other tasks and said what it was. I had to sell my skills in order not to be written off. So, they made another internship for me and I still did a few communications tasks like press releases. But, I had to do some advocacy and education; I had to explain jaws too and they were accomodating as I installed jaws there. So I got that unpaid internship. It takes a lot to get a job. Just because we have a large unemployment rate, does not mean centers are bad. Oh, and I do not believe the statistic anyway; I think its an inflated lie. Everyone I know in nfb is employed except for a few people in other chapters. I also think that 70 percent stat is way outdated and it includes people with multiple disabilities. So, to conclude, no center is perfect but I'd have to say it does a lot to help you be an independent person in life. Ashley From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 13 03:51:20 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:51:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <5282DE60.7060007@gmail.com> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <5282DE60.7060007@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't know that I can actually put a number on it. But if I absolutely had t it would probably be one out of 10 or less. I only mentioned it because I'm helpful criticism is in fact a part of the workplace. I didn't mean it as a negative criticism against any of the centers. I only meant to compare the center experience to real life experience as much as possible. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 12, 2013, at 8:05 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: > > Fair enough. How often would you say that o,unhelpful feedback occurred, though? Because, frankly, if it happened a lot, that is not at all the same as a boss putting you down. You have other options if that happens. And, if there are no other options, such as needing to put food on the table for your family, most people can at least use that as an incentive to deal with a stressful job. What similar incentive is there in a training center environment? > >> On 11/12/2013 8:39 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >> That was my message that you are referring to. What I was trying to get at is that, although most of the feedback is helpful, the staff are people and, just as other people do, they can go a little overboard. Well it is certainly unpleasant to receive an helpful feedback, it is indeed very reflective of the real world because, of course, people in the workplace can go overboard with their feedback. So, in a sense, the unhelpful feedback we occasionally received was both a blessing and a curse. It was a curse in that it was frankly not useful. It was a blessing in that we got to practice our communication skills. No one ever got blue over like a house of cards torn down to the ground. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 5:32 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope that this is a priority. >>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing down like a house of cards! >>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >>> >>>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Good morning, >>>>> >>>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to >>>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, >>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >>>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>>> listing >>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>>> you'll >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>>> mentally, >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>>> better >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>>> years >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>>> one >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>>> society >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>>> l.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>> ail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>> >>> -- >>> Desiree >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >> . >> > > -- > Desiree > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 13 03:58:53 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 21:58:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Self-Advocacy Question In-Reply-To: References: <52818808.854ae50a.1516.00bbSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5BF45A13-5EAE-4546-B435-EF6ECBB34804@samobile.net> The only trouble is that many teachers of the visually impaired don't actually know about nonvisual Techniques for cooking. Mine didn't seem too. A better bet would be to have some member of the NFB as a volunteer. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Greg Aikens wrote: > > I'm not saying I agree with the idea that you need a TVI or para by your side at all times in such a class, but taking a cooking class would be a wonderful opportunity to master non visual techniques related to cooking. If you are going to go through the process of taking the class and doing the work, you might as well get the most out of the experience. If that means having a TVI come in a couple times a week to support your teacher and demonstrate non visual techniques, I think that would be an ideal solution. Whatever you do, make sure you have access to people who can help you learn non visual ways to complete the same cooking tasks as your peers. > > Best of luck. > > -Greg > > > > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >> Hi JJ, >> >> I am glad that your mother is willing to help you. Teachers do tend to >> listen to parents, at least they are legally supposed to when it comes >> to your disability accommodations. Perhaps you can start the class >> without the para and once your teacher gets to know you she will >> realize the para is not necessary. Or, you and your mother could meet >> with her to explain how you cook at home and how you can be involved. >> I can conference call on that meeting if you think that would help. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >>> On 11/11/13, Josh Gregory wrote: >>> You could've done without the language, but a para is somebody who helps a >>> student one on one. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi, jJ, >>>> >>>> What the hell is a para? >>>> for today, Car >>>> 408-209-3239At 04:41 PM 11/11/2013, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>>>> Arielle: >>>>> Thank you, I definitely appreciate your willing to help with this >>>>> situation. The Cooking class will begin tomorrow, and i am not >>>>> required to have a para, but my tvi is implying that it'd be best for >>>>> me. However, I definitely disagree, and am totally capable of >>>>> participating within the class on my own. I have honestly never even >>>>> met the teacher before today, and the confidence that she had in me >>>>> was very low. I have talked to my mother, and she has left voicemails >>>>> in both of their mailboxes, so hopefully something gets done! However, >>>>> I will let you know, because in my opinion, if they were to see >>>>> another blind individual, who independently cooks explain things to >>>>> them, it might change their mind. >>>>> Thank you so much Arielle! >>>>> JJ >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/11/13, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>>> Hi JJ, >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think you need a para, especially if you already have a lot of >>>>>> experience cooking. Are your parents willing to stand up for you? >>>>>> Ultimately it's their decision, so if your parents say that you should >>>>>> participate equally in the class without somebody standing by your >>>>>> side, then that is what should happen. You could also try contacting >>>>>> Scott LaBarre, Brent Batron or someone else in CO who could advocate >>>>>> for you. I live in Colorado and would be happy to talk with your TVI >>>>>> as a blind person who cooks independently. If your parents are >>>>>> supporting you and on your side, they can write a letter to the TVI >>>>>> and teacher requesting you participate fully in the class without a >>>>>> para, and can perhaps set up a special meeting to discuss this >>>>>> arrangement. Even if your teachers require a para to be there, you can >>>>>> still request the para stand back and let you participate fully in the >>>>>> class. You will get much more out of the class that way. When does the >>>>>> class start? >>>>>> >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/11/13, johnnie Jean duran wrote: >>>>>>> Dear National Association of Blind Students, >>>>>>> As some of you may know, I am currently an 8th grade student >>>>>>> attending >>>>>>> O'Connell Middle School, and every trimester, every student is >>>>>>> allowed >>>>>>> to switch electives and pick a new one. I decided to choose cooking >>>>>>> (family and consumer science) as my selection, however my TVI and the >>>>>>> cooking teacher are both implying that I will need a para with me in >>>>>>> there at all times. I chose cooking because it is something I am good >>>>>>> at, and I do it all the time. But, both teachers are persisting that >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> need a para. What should I tell them, because they aren't listening? >>>>>>> Do I need an advocate? >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> JJ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran >>>>> 8th Grade Student >>>>> O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School >>>>> Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The >>>>> Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of >>>>> the NFB. >>>>> Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran >>>>> Instagram: jj_duran13 >>>>> Skype: jj.duran13 >>>>> Kik: jjd_13 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Nov 13 04:05:52 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 22:05:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] training and gaps in a resume In-Reply-To: <4BA7256D54E64FB8A7F6A0E1D8FEA15F@OwnerPC> References: <4BA7256D54E64FB8A7F6A0E1D8FEA15F@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5B8DC5C6-FC85-4803-BF9B-4F446F5A0A3D@samobile.net> In my case, it worked out beautifully because I work as a mobility instructor. So for me, having the training center experience was more of a bonus as it demonstrates that I can travel non-visually. When I applied for other jobs not in my current field, I went ahead and listed the training center and highlighted special skills that I gathered their related to the job I applied for.. I Sometimes expanded on these skills in the interview. Sometimes it worked in my favor and sometimes it didn't. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:04 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Hi all, > I wanted to ask you all about something that arose in the training centers not the real world thread. > I thought I’d ask this separately as it’s a big issue I pondered. > How do you deal with gaps in your resume? > What if you went to training? Have you listed this in a resume? > I went to our state center, and may go again out of state because as I mentioned, I did not get everything I needed in state. > But having been to training leaves gaps. > How can we use these gaps to our advantage? We cannot put training on a resume as we do not want to reveal blindness. > > So what do you do if you had a gap in the resume? What if you were in training? > If you had a gap because you simply could not find a job and were not in school, what to say is a quandry. > Volunteering may be an option if you did something ongoing. > > I’ll ask about these quotes below. > It caught my attention! > > Cindy said, > “I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it > made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage.” > > Cindy, can you give examples? > Where are you employed? > How did you say it was an advantage? > > > Someone else said they used the training center as an advantage, although I am not sure who it is. > > For now, I have a gap in my resume when I was in training. I don’t think its long enough to hinder me particularly in today’s economy when everyone has gaps. > > But I did get to wondering how we can better tie training to employment once we speak to the employer. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 04:27:25 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 22:27:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A para is short for paraprofessional, which is a fancy term given to teacher aids these days. Bridgit Message: 1 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:07:01 -0500 From: "I. C. Bray" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Self advocacy question Message-ID: <21192BA1FDFE427CAF8B216D3E4AD39B at JAWS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Can someone please tell me what is a "Para"? I have never heard the term used... Ian From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 04:53:03 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 22:53:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, You say, "since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self Confidence." I don't think you understand Structured Discovery, which is also taught at several state centers as well. This method was developed to teach by encouraging problem-solving skills. When taught properly, Structured Discovery allows you to apply a given skills or method to various situations you will encounter in daily life. In math, we are taught certain mathematical principles that are then applied to any math problem. You do not need to learn how to answer each individual math problem but can apply the principle to find the answer. Based on your example of baking, you suggest a blind student should be taught how to make each individual recipe, which isn't practical or possible. Structured Discovery teaches general cooking an baking rules that allow you to apply to any recipe you attempt. This is how anyone would learn to cook and bake. Trial and error are a big part of the Structured Discovery method. When using the method to instruct in travel and mobility, it provides you with the basic guidelines for most situations. How to properly use a long white cane to navigate any setting, indoor or outdoor. It demonstrates how to find curbs, stairs, objects and determine what an object is, find open seats. You also learn, to the best of your ability, how to orientate yourself and follow basic directions. Again, based on the example you give, you seem to want to know how to travel around with specific locations, but again, this isn't possible unless you have someone with you every time you go somewhere new. Structured Discovery is intended to teach you tools and methods that can be applied to any situation and location. No, you may not automatically know exactly how to find something or how to get there, but Structured Discovery teaches you how to figure that out in a given situation. My husband likes to use the following analogy to describe Structured Discovery: It's like riding a bike; once you learn, you know how to do it and don't need to relearn every time you get on a new bike. This may over simplify it a bit, but you understand the meaning. Just because you learn blindness skills through Structured Discovery doesn't mean you will become perfect at all or will never struggle again. But you will be equipped to problem solve and find the best tool and/or method to figure out any given situation. Travel is not my forte, and I don't easily figure out certain locations all the time. But I know how to apply these rules, as it were, to help me orientate myself and figure out where to go. And asking for help isn't a bad thing. People often have this misinformed idea that the NFB is against asking help, especially sighted help, but this isn't true. If you need to ask for directions, that's a part of problem-solving and traveling independently. If you need someone to help you understand a location spatially, I see nothing wrong with this either. Structured Discovery is like a tool box. You are given several tools that are at your disposal. You may need to try a couple of different ones to find the best tool for the right situation, but somewhere in that box is the right tool. Bridgit Message: 2 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:22:54 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Desiree, Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they say something and have you change? I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating skills at pittsburg; that is good. I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you can build self esteem then. Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and harshness certainly does not help me. My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am stressed out and have anxiety. I do not take pressure well. So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be the best fit for all of us. I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt disoriented and very vunerable. You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain department. I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it was helpful. But not for outside travel. Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We should chat about the PA center. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Nov 13 05:09:05 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 23:09:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aren't those in the ministry suppose to be humble, understanding, compassionate and less provoking? You still don't seem to see the bigger picture that many blind people are not given or taught certain skills vital for going on with life. Not everyone has the capacity for self-teaching either. As a potential pastor, do you expect your future congregation to learn about Christianity with no guidance from you? This is possible, but will they find the same interpretations as you? If this were the case, we wouldn't have hundreds of Christian denominations. Pastors often act as counselors for various reasons. Will you expect your flock to overcome problems and issues with no guidance? It's the same for blind people. Some, like yourself, will have the ability to learn blindness skills with little or no help from others. But the majority will require some guidance and encouragement. Some may pick up a skill here or there, and some are taught poorly. Why not find an institution specializing in blindness skills like an NFB center so one can have the best chance to learn what they need for living in the real world? And BTW, based on your argument, one can argue that the seminary isn't living in the real world. Why not just apprentice at a church? And before you answer, remember, my dad is a pastor. It's not necessary to attend seminary to learn about your faith or even to become a pastor. My dad is the pastor of a Baptist church and has no seminary training. He's apprenticed in the ministry for years, which seems to put him closer to reality than sitting in classes at seminary. Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:25:17 -0500 From: "RJ Sandefur" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Message-ID: <004501cee006$d4c6b160$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Well, I still stand by my statement Their is the real world and I learned my cane travel and other blindness skills in the real world and not at some training center NFB or otherwise! The reality is when rehab said atempt college, I did it any way. The reality is, when rehab said that ministry was not a realistic goal for a blind person, I am actually doing it. The reality is I just graduated with a 3.8 from the seminary where their were not any student disabilities services. Training centers for y. the blind... what a joke! That's putting it bluntly. -- That is reality! --- Original Message ----- From turtlepower17 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 05:31:49 2013 From: turtlepower17 at gmail.com (Desiree Oudinot) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 00:31:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <5282DE60.7060007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52830EC5.30405@gmail.com> I understand. It was just the wording of your message, I guess, that made it out to be more negative than it was. On 11/12/2013 10:51 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: > I don't know that I can actually put a number on it. But if I absolutely had t it would probably be one out of 10 or less. I only mentioned it because I'm helpful criticism is in fact a part of the workplace. I didn't mean it as a negative criticism against any of the centers. I only meant to compare the center experience to real life experience as much as possible. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 8:05 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> >> Fair enough. How often would you say that o,unhelpful feedback occurred, though? Because, frankly, if it happened a lot, that is not at all the same as a boss putting you down. You have other options if that happens. And, if there are no other options, such as needing to put food on the table for your family, most people can at least use that as an incentive to deal with a stressful job. What similar incentive is there in a training center environment? >> >>> On 11/12/2013 8:39 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>> That was my message that you are referring to. What I was trying to get at is that, although most of the feedback is helpful, the staff are people and, just as other people do, they can go a little overboard. Well it is certainly unpleasant to receive an helpful feedback, it is indeed very reflective of the real world because, of course, people in the workplace can go overboard with their feedback. So, in a sense, the unhelpful feedback we occasionally received was both a blessing and a curse. It was a curse in that it was frankly not useful. It was a blessing in that we got to practice our communication skills. No one ever got blue over like a house of cards torn down to the ground. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 5:32 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >>>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >>>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope that this is a priority. >>>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing down like a house of cards! >>>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >>>> >>>>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Good morning, >>>>>> >>>>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able to >>>>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave Florida, >>>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know a >>>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first as >>>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent contractors >>>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those of >>>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help most >>>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down in >>>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance if >>>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really designed >>>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of academic >>>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't know >>>>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I was >>>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or not, >>>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have helped >>>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is a >>>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>>>> listing >>>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills or >>>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>>>> you'll >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my sight >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this way, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>>>> mentally, >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>>>> society >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Desiree >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>> . >>> >> -- >> Desiree >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com > -- Desiree From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Wed Nov 13 06:30:59 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 01:30:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> <528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Katy, I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a school for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is just what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as a future educator I will never let something like this happen. People always ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some reason they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are blind setting an example in the public school. One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I feel misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their own little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. It's a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as any other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. Bridget Sent from my iPad On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Bridget, > > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror stories > from people at several state schools, and even know older people who > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and now > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at least, > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years of > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. > > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment made > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant > descrimination. > > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. >>> >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual >>> person. >>> >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the >>> time. >>> >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >>> process. >>> >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions >>> we came up with to work. >>> >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >>> >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >>> least. >>> >>> Just my thoughts. >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>>> RJ, >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever >>>> center >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >>>> to >>>> >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >>>> dormitories, >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to >>>> stay >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >>>> is >>>> >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >>>> may >>>> >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >>>> on >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >>>> the >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >>>> next >>>> >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >>>> I >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >>>> me >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >>>> friend >>>> >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >>>> the >>>> >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her >>>> on >>>> it. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Misty >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Steve Jacobson >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> RJ, >>>> >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >>>> such >>>> as that of your friend. In general, >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >>>> mean >>>> >>>> for bringing up a child in the long >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>>> confident >>>> independent traveler without putting in >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >>>> or >>>> to be there for that child. Your >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >>>> care >>>> of the child, and there could be other >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >>>> take >>>> >>>> training seems very short-sighted to >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>> >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>>>> ago. >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "minh ha" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>>>> Minh >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) >>>>>> is >>>>> that >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>>>> that >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>>> classmates. >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>>>> for >>>>> the >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>>> readily >>>>>> available . >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that >>>>>> will >>>>> help >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>>>> in >>>>> the >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>>>> us >>>>> to >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can >>>>>> we >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>>>> should >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>>> environments >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>>>> in >>>>> a >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>>>> Darian >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>> ail.com >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> Hi, Misty and all, >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me and >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, but >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, and >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget it. >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I was >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but workplaces >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk why I >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my parents >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to refuse >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. They >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and it's >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't possibly >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely not >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and because >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd rather >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in and >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com From kwakmiso at aol.com Wed Nov 13 07:11:57 2013 From: kwakmiso at aol.com (Miso Kwak) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 02:11:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D0AE56C6731913-17F8-7DEB@webmail-va006.sysops.aol.com> First of all, I couldn't read every part of this thread. I would like to comment on the school for the blind and mainstream. On an earlier message I believe I already stated that I am an advocate of mainstream. Again, I didn't attend any school for the blind in this country but from my observation I think it can be said on American system as well. As Bridget mentions students can learn rigorous curriculum and perhaps have more accessible learning experience in science and math. However, from my personal experience being mainstreamed gives more motivation and more opportunities for a blind student. When a blind student is mainstreamed, most likely students will be almost forced to learn how to advocate and communicate with others. Also, as others have mentioned public school system has a wider range of curriculum offerings. I haven't met a friend who was given opportunities to participate in AP or IB program from school for the blind. When it comes to science and math and other visual subjects, it could be true that school for the blind may have more accessible and perhaps efficient way of teaching it but at the same time 1. Public schools should be able to provide accessible education in these areas. It is rather idealistic statement but I personally experienced AP chemistry and advanced Spanish classes in public school system. TVI and the classroom teachers and I worked together to make it happen. 2. Because the school for the blind system is trying to make it more accessible, the quality might suffer. For instance, when I went to school for the blind in Korea I learned from the same textbooks that were being used for public school system but often my class skipped some labs or just didn't have good enough quality diagrams. It was when I came to America that I felt like I was learning science more in depth. (It's not that Korean science education system is inadequate. Even though I went to a school for the blind known for best quality of academics science education was just not up to where it should be.) Being mainstreamed has not been always a smooth sailing but I have no regret for not attending school for the blind in America. Thank you for reading. -----Original Message----- From: Kaiti Shelton To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Sent: Tue, Nov 12, 2013 11:19 am Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world Bridget, It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror stories from people at several state schools, and even know older people who are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and now for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at least, it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years of a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment made me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant descrimination. On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am >> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >> parents thought and what I believe as well. >> >> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual >> person. >> >> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, >> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the >> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice >> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very >> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me >> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the >> time. >> >> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the >> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most >> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in >> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the >> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable >> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to >> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not >> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and >> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >> process. >> >> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability >> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk >> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted >> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated >> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my >> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our >> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was >> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that >> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but >> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. >> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for >> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do >> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club >> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for >> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is >> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and >> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects >> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases >> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the >> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions >> we came up with to work. >> >> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me >> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim >> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, >> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn >> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I >> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had >> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience >> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but >> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended >> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I >> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that >> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have >> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to >> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >> >> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook >> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away >> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, >> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could >> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >> least. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>> RJ, >>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever >>> center >>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her >>> to >>> >>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >>> dormitories, >>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to >>> stay >>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may >>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she >>> is >>> >>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center >>> may >>> >>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her >>> on >>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but >>> the >>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me >>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to >>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend >>> next >>> >>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me >>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so >>> I >>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow >>> me >>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >>> friend >>> >>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of >>> the >>> >>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her >>> on >>> it. >>> Thanks, >>> Misty >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Steve Jacobson >>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> RJ, >>> >>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >>> such >>> as that of your friend. In general, >>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might >>> mean >>> >>> for bringing up a child in the long >>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>> confident >>> independent traveler without putting in >>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident >>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, >>> or >>> to be there for that child. Your >>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >>> care >>> of the child, and there could be other >>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to >>> take >>> >>> training seems very short-sighted to >>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Steve Jacobson >>> >>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> >>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years >>>> ago. >>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a >>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "minh ha" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over >>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, >>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to >>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach >>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain >>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can >>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>>> Minh >>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) >>>>> is >>>> that >>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills >>>>> that >>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>>> classmates. >>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted >>>>> for >>>> the >>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always >>>> readily >>>>> available . >>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that >>>>> will >>>> help >>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed >>>>> in >>>> the >>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable >>>>> us >>>> to >>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can >>>>> we >>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >>>>> should >>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>> environments >>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally >>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world >>>>> in >>>> a >>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you >>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>>> Darian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>>> >>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> ail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >> > Hi, Misty and all, > St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me and > too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado > Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, but > then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things > were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, and > she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget it. > This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being > alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I was > diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are > trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but workplaces > are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk why I > went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for > myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my parents > still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to refuse > to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. They > still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is > property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and it's > really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't possibly > be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely not > real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and because > of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd rather > have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in and > say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kwakmiso%40aol.com From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 11:33:20 2013 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan Silveira) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 05:33:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <1EB889108F1D406A9FEC0EC807791212@OwnerPC> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625><18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC><260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625><007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625><004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625><20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com><5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com><2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC><5282D497.3010904@gmail.com> <1EB889108F1D406A9FEC0EC807791212@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <980B63DC-9EAC-4992-8B03-B7969ADFB088@gmail.com> Hi all, This is a very good discussion to serve as my introduction to this list. The selection of which training center to attend is really a matter of personal preference. As has already been pointed out, different training centers have different styles. They also work differently with different age groups. For example, when training at the Caroll Center for the Blind in Newton, Massachusetts as an adult is very different than attending one of their summer programs (e.g. Youth in Transition or the work experience program). One has a lot more freedom as an adult to go around the city or into Boston as they please, based on their skill level. I also agree with Kaitie that criticism is dished out in various ways. It is important that you know how you handle criticism and that you use that to match yourself with a center where the instructors suit your personality. The only thing you, Kaitie, said with which I don't agree is that one should ask the directors of the training center to give them insight on how things are run. The director can give some insight, but if you are using that information to choose which training center to attend, you would be much better off asking a former or current student of that training center as any director or staff is likely to advertise, whether consciously or unconsciously, their own center. Also, keep in mind the philosophy of each center and choose which best suits your personality. Hope this helps. Ryan L. Silveira On Nov 12, 2013, at 9:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > Jedi, > Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like they treated people respectfully but may go overboard some but as you said all humans do this sometimes. > I am glad LCB has the accountability to students to have them dress cleanly. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Moerke > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:55 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > That was my message. And I don't think I said that boundaries are often crossed. What I said was that sometimes, staff occasionally offered criticism that, while probably well meant, wasn't really that helpful or necessary. And frankly, sometimes, as a student, I occasionally got criticism that I felt wasn't anyone's place to give. But that's just my opinion. If nothing else, it provided me an opportunity to practice self advocacy skills and to politely let people know that, in a given situation, a decision was mine to make. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 12, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >> >> Yes, I do think that docking pay or telling someone to change their clothes are fair. But it's really all in how it's done. >> Furthermore, the part of the message in question that I took issue with is, and I'm paraphrasing but the basic idea is intact, that personal boundaries were often crossed. I don't know in what context this was meant, but even as a blanket statement, that is not ok in my book. >> >>> On 11/12/2013 7:46 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> Desiree and Ashley, >>> >>> You bring up some very good points. I also don't know which message >>> this comment was in, but it could also be one person's perception of >>> the centers. >>> >>> In thinking about it, I can see why they dock pay for late arrival, >>> and make you change into clean clothes if you do not come in them, as >>> that teaches professionalism to those who might not have it already. >>> But, it depends on what the criticism is, and how it's being dished >>> out. Or, it could just be that certain people take things that aren't >>> meant to be criticisms more harshly than they are meant to be. >>> However, the centers do have students with psychological disorders and >>> other disabilities in addition to blindness, so I agree they need to >>> be mindful of that if what was said is truly the case. >>> >>> Again, I think the best people to ask about these sorts of things are >>> the directors themselves. >>> >>> I have never heard of someone being scorned in the federation for >>> having multiple disabilities, and think that if the federation were to >>> do so it would be totally counterintuitive to the disability rights >>> efforts going on. A lot of the laws the NFB is trying to push through >>> are not just for blind people, but for people with all kinds of >>> disabilities. "Fair wages for workers with disabilities act," not >>> "fair wages for blind workers." The Teach act is the same way, and so >>> on and so forth. I agree that if you experienced this, it was >>> probably just individuals who don't have a very good perspective on >>> disabilities, not the fault of the organization itself. >>> >>>> On 11/12/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>> Desiree, >>>> Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. >>>> At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? >>>> If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they >>>> >>>> say something and have you change? >>>> I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating >>>> skills at pittsburg; that is good. >>>> >>>> I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you >>>> can build self esteem then. >>>> Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it >>>> seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self >>>> >>>> confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came >>>> out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. >>>> I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. >>>> So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and >>>> harshness certainly does not help me. >>>> My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am >>>> >>>> stressed out and have anxiety. >>>> I do not take pressure well. >>>> >>>> So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm >>>> not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, >>>> the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be >>>> the best fit for all of us. >>>> >>>> I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was >>>> not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt >>>> disoriented and very vunerable. >>>> You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic >>>> and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a >>>> surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some >>>> turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. >>>> I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have >>>> problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. >>>> I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at >>>> >>>> malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain >>>> department. >>>> I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about >>>> >>>> my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions >>>> strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it >>>> was helpful. But not for outside travel. >>>> >>>> Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We >>>> should chat about the PA center. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Desiree Oudinot >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there >>>> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >>>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect >>>> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be >>>> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question >>>> seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >>>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but >>>> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly >>>> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve >>>> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, >>>> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope >>>> that this is a priority. >>>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, >>>> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being >>>> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional >>>> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge >>>> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who >>>> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems >>>> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing >>>> down like a house of cards! >>>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't >>>> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind >>>> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >>>> >>>>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, >>>>> >>>>> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was >>>>> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana >>>>> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively >>>>> >>>>> than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from >>>>> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of >>>>> >>>>> its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some >>>>> >>>>> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the >>>>> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization >>>>> >>>>> is not accurate. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Good morning, >>>>>> >>>>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students >>>>>> >>>>>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >>>>>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life >>>>>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >>>>>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >>>>>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw >>>>>> >>>>>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >>>>>> 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able >>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>>>>> Florida, >>>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance >>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really >>>>>>>>>> designed >>>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of >>>>>>>>>> academic >>>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I >>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or >>>>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>>>> listing >>>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills >>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>>>> you'll >>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where >>>>>>>>>>>>> rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sight >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>>>> mentally, >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>>>> society >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Desiree >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Desiree >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From i.c.bray at win.net Wed Nov 13 14:35:39 2013 From: i.c.bray at win.net (I. C. Bray) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 09:35:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC><528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> Message-ID: To all of whom have posted on this thread. While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness skills, education, and professional careers, there is something we all have in common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I myself have had problems in both Public School, in College, and Adult Blindness Training Centers. Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, and my objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going to indicate which schools I attended. I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school for the Blind". Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind students. Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus, Listening Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an eventual High School equelevant Education. All of this is presumptive that the student is capable of attaining that High School Education. There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic conditions who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of attaining much more for themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years later. I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in my Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to Engineering School with the full support of my math, physics, and myguidance counselors. I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The plain & simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the ability to use alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were useless because I was too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't understand and trying to decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level of Mathematics I did not understand the point of. Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what they are trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND until AFTER YOU ARE FINISHED. For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just because you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision impairment is absurd. The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't or don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what they need, want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous. Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are correct; The education is not up to higher Public Education Standards. Simillarly, Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and Secondary ) are required by Federal Law to provide EVERY student presented to them a suitable Education. At this point, is up to parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's opportunity. Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be successful because parents are not often aware of their options. School Systems take this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money they are already short on toward the specific needs of a substantially small number of students. College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to the importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you are STILL going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, andinsufficient training of instructors. I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time with regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive Curricula" seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to modiffy or enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the actual number of those who actually do. Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it... which usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly. Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The truthful answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's responsibility. When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab. Center, or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for learning the material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often is involved with textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and you ar going to have to utilize whatever protest options available until you are so tired of it that it seems worthless. You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the mired-down attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed that they are illequipped to help you. ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are supposed to help you, and when things go wrong, you seek appointments with Department Heads, University Provosts, and Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go to the Accredidation boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding comes from and you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you save coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you have 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the desire to make lots of money and you get things worked out. Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes there is, but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late. Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. Insist upon having your instructors explain verbally, things that you are not able to see. Remain professional, and polite at all times. Get a friend to take pictures so someone can describe them later. When a professor tells you you are not allowed to record his lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent it. If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by that Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, or Provost. Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to the situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have to be that useless flashlight for the sighted community. Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you think your instructor is. Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee instructors attitudes change. Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a ridiculous notion. You may one day need it. Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age! The more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read ahead in your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you before you hear it. Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, and check it over it until you know it's right. Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask questions!! Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if you are wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested and engaged in your learning that will help you succeed. Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, you are responsible for what happens to you. Cheers, Ian C. Bray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridget Walker" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world : Hi Katy, : : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a school for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is just what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as a future educator I will never let something like this happen. People always ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some reason they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are blind setting an example in the public school. : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I feel misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their own little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. It's a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as any other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. : : Bridget : : Sent from my iPad : : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: : : > Bridget, : > : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror stories : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people who : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and now : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at least, : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years of : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. : > : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment made : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant : > descrimination. : > : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: : >>> Hi all, : >>> : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. : >>> : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual : >>> person. : >>> : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the : >>> time. : >>> : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the : >>> process. : >>> : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions : >>> we came up with to work. : >>> : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. : >>> : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at : >>> least. : >>> : >>> Just my thoughts. : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: : >>>> RJ, : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever : >>>> center : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for her : >>>> to : >>>> : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of : >>>> dormitories, : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to : >>>> stay : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend may : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while she : >>>> is : >>>> : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the center : >>>> may : >>>> : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with her : >>>> on : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, but : >>>> the : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help me : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity to : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to attend : >>>> next : >>>> : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to me : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out so : >>>> I : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to allow : >>>> me : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your : >>>> friend : >>>> : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any of : >>>> the : >>>> : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with her : >>>> on : >>>> it. : >>>> Thanks, : >>>> Misty : >>>> : >>>> : >>>> -----Original Message----- : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world : >>>> : >>>> RJ, : >>>> : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case : >>>> such : >>>> as that of your friend. In general, : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well might : >>>> mean : >>>> : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a : >>>> confident : >>>> independent traveler without putting in : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a confident : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to be, : >>>> or : >>>> to be there for that child. Your : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take : >>>> care : >>>> of the child, and there could be other : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child to : >>>> take : >>>> : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. : >>>> : >>>> Best regards, : >>>> : >>>> Steve Jacobson : >>>> : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: : >>>> : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four years : >>>>> ago. : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to a : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ : >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- : >>>>> From: "minh ha" : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" : >>>>> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world : >>>> : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired over : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a stove, : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want to : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to teach : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can gain : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I can : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. : >>>>> Minh : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: : >>>>>> Hi all, : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) : >>>>>> is : >>>>> that : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in skills : >>>>>> that : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their : >>>>> classmates. : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are adapted : >>>>>> for : >>>>> the : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not always : >>>>> readily : >>>>>> available . : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that : >>>>>> will : >>>>> help : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and succeed : >>>>>> in : >>>>> the : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that enable : >>>>>> us : >>>>> to : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only can : >>>>>> we : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this : >>>>>> should : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning : >>>>> environments : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that generally : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real world : >>>>>> in : >>>>> a : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave you : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. : >>>>>> Darian : >>>>>> : >>>>>> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________ : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >>>>>> nabs-l: : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com : >>>> : >>>>> -- : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence : >>>>> _______________________________________________ : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >>>>> nabs-l: : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm : >>>>> ail.com : >>>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >>>>> nabs-l: : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com : >>>> : >>>> : >>>> : >>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ : >>>> nabs-l mailing list : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >>>> nabs-l: : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com : >>>> : >>>> : >>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ : >>>> nabs-l mailing list : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >>>> nabs-l: : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com : >> Hi, Misty and all, : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me and : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, but : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, and : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget it. : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I was : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but workplaces : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk why I : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my parents : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to refuse : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. They : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and it's : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't possibly : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely not : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and because : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd rather : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in and : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." : >> Beth : >> : >> _______________________________________________ : >> nabs-l mailing list : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for : >> nabs-l: : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com : > : > : > -- : > Kaiti : > : > _______________________________________________ : > nabs-l mailing list : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com : : _______________________________________________ : nabs-l mailing list : nabs-l at nfbnet.org : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net From tyler at tysdomain.com Wed Nov 13 14:50:23 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 09:50:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC><528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> Message-ID: <528391AF.5040507@tysdomain.com> Ian: Listserves really need a like button. I agree 1000% with this message, though I assume those who are "entitled" will just let it whoosh over their heads and those who understand your point are already putting a lot of this into practice anyway. On 11/13/2013 9:35 AM, I. C. Bray wrote: > To all of whom have posted on this thread. > > While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness skills, > education, and professional careers, there is something we all have in > common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I myself have had > problems in both Public School, in College, and Adult Blindness Training > Centers. > Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, and my > objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going to indicate > which schools I attended. > I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school for the > Blind". > Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind students. > Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These > institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus, Listening > Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an eventual High School > equelevant Education. All of this is presumptive that the student is > capable of attaining that High School Education. > There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic conditions > who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of attaining much more for > themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years later. > I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in my > Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to Engineering > School with the full support of my math, physics, and myguidance counselors. > I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The plain & > simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the ability to use > alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were useless because I was > too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't understand and trying to > decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level of Mathematics I did not > understand the point of. > Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what they are > trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND until AFTER YOU > ARE FINISHED. > For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just because > you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision impairment is absurd. > The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't or > don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what they need, > want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous. > Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are correct; The > education is not up to higher Public Education Standards. Simillarly, > Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and Secondary ) are required by Federal > Law to provide EVERY student presented to them a suitable Education. At > this point, is up to parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's > opportunity. Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be successful > because parents are not often aware of their options. School Systems take > this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money they are already short > on toward the specific needs of a substantially small number of students. > College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger > population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource > Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to the > importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you are STILL > going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, andinsufficient > training of instructors. > I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time with > regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive Curricula" > seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to modiffy or > enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the actual number of those > who actually do. > Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it... which > usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly. > Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The truthful > answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's responsibility. > > When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab. Center, > or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for learning the > material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often is involved with > textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and you ar going to have to > utilize whatever protest options available until you are so tired of it that > it seems worthless. > You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the mired-down > attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed that they are > illequipped to help you. > > ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are supposed to help > you, and when things go wrong, you seek appointments with Department Heads, > University Provosts, and Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go to > the Accredidation boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding comes > from and you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you save > coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you have > 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the desire > to make lots of money and you get things worked out. > Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes there is, > but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late. > Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. Insist upon > having your instructors explain verbally, things that you are not able to > see. Remain professional, and polite at all times. Get a friend to take > pictures so someone can describe them later. When a professor tells you you > are not allowed to record his lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent it. > If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by that > Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, or Provost. > Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to the > situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have to be that > useless flashlight for the sighted community. > Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you think > your instructor is. > Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee instructors > attitudes change. > Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a ridiculous > notion. You may one day need it. > Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age! The > more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read ahead in > your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you before you hear it. > Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, and check > it over it until you know it's right. > Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask questions!! > Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if you are > wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested and engaged in > your learning that will help you succeed. > Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, you are > responsible for what happens to you. > Cheers, > Ian C. Bray > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridget Walker" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > > : Hi Katy, > : > : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a school > for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is just > what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as a > future educator I will never let something like this happen. People always > ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some reason > they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are blind > setting an example in the public school. > : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I feel > misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their own > little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these > modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. It's > a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my > techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as any > other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. > : > : Bridget > : > : Sent from my iPad > : > : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton > wrote: > : > : > Bridget, > : > > : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the > : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the > : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of > : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not > : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you > : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror stories > : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people who > : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there > : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and now > : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because > : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I > : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids > : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at least, > : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years of > : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind > : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty > : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've > : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in > : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify > : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could > : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. > : > > : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment made > : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts > : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their > : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is > : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be > : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant > : > descrimination. > : > > : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > : >>> Hi all, > : >>> > : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am > : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my > : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. > : >>> > : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great > : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that > : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual > : >>> person. > : >>> > : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been > : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, > : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom > : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my > : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the > : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice > : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also > : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very > : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me > : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the > : >>> time. > : >>> > : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the > : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the > : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most > : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much > : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in > : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back > : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local > : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from > : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the > : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable > : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to > : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not > : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and > : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the > : >>> process. > : >>> > : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability > : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk > : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted > : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine > : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated > : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school > : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these > : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is > : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my > : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a > : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down > : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. > : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our > : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our > : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was > : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I > : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that > : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but > : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. > : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for > : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do > : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club > : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band > : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or > : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for > : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error > : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is > : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the > : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and > : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like > : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects > : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases > : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the > : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a > : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a > : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions > : >>> we came up with to work. > : >>> > : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of > :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and > : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me > : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim > : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I > : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, > : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn > : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I > : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had > : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I > : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience > : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own > : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but > : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended > : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I > : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that > : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, > : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will > : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have > : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those > : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to > : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because > : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. > : >>> > : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, > : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook > : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an > : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and > : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away > : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, > : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and > : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the > : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could > : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at > : >>> least. > : >>> > : >>> Just my thoughts. > : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: > : >>>> RJ, > : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever > : >>>> center > : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for > her > : >>>> to > : >>>> > : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory > : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of > : >>>> dormitories, > : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to > : >>>> stay > : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend > may > : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while > she > : >>>> is > : >>>> > : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the > center > : >>>> may > : >>>> > : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with > her > : >>>> on > : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. > : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, > but > : >>>> the > : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help > me > : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity > to > : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to > attend > : >>>> next > : >>>> > : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to > me > : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out > so > : >>>> I > : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to > allow > : >>>> me > : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your > : >>>> friend > : >>>> > : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any > of > : >>>> the > : >>>> > : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with > her > : >>>> on > : >>>> it. > : >>>> Thanks, > : >>>> Misty > : >>>> > : >>>> > : >>>> -----Original Message----- > : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson > : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM > : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > : >>>> > : >>>> RJ, > : >>>> > : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case > : >>>> such > : >>>> as that of your friend. In general, > : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well > might > : >>>> mean > : >>>> > : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long > : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a > : >>>> confident > : >>>> independent traveler without putting in > : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a > confident > : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to > : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to > be, > : >>>> or > : >>>> to be there for that child. Your > : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take > : >>>> care > : >>>> of the child, and there could be other > : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child > to > : >>>> take > : >>>> > : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to > : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. > : >>>> > : >>>> Best regards, > : >>>> > : >>>> Steve Jacobson > : >>>> > : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: > : >>>> > : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four > years > : >>>>> ago. > : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to > a > : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ > : >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > : >>>>> From: "minh ha" > : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > : >>>>> > : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM > : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > : >>>> > : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying > : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to > : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these > : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain > : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills > : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training > : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the > : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired > over > : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing > : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I > : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we > : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a > stove, > : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want > to > : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to > teach > : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially > : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can > gain > : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college > : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to > : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I > can > : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not > : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. > : >>>>> Minh > : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: > : >>>>>> Hi all, > : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. > : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) > : >>>>>> is > : >>>>> that > : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in > skills > : >>>>>> that > : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their > : >>>>> classmates. > : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are > adapted > : >>>>>> for > : >>>>> the > : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not > always > : >>>>> readily > : >>>>>> available . > : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that > : >>>>>> will > : >>>>> help > : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and > succeed > : >>>>>> in > : >>>>> the > : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that > enable > : >>>>>> us > : >>>>> to > : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only > can > : >>>>>> we > : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this > : >>>>>> should > : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. > : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning > : >>>>> environments > : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that > generally > : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real > world > : >>>>>> in > : >>>>> a > : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave > you > : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. > : >>>>>> Darian > : >>>>>> > : >>>>>> > : >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > : >>>>>> nabs-l: > : >>>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > : >>>> > : >>>>> -- > : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the > dusty > : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > : >>>>> _______________________________________________ > : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > : >>>>> nabs-l: > : >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm > : >>>>> ail.com > : >>>> > : >>>>> _______________________________________________ > : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > : >>>>> nabs-l: > : >>>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > : >>>> > : >>>> > : >>>> > : >>>> > : >>>> _______________________________________________ > : >>>> nabs-l mailing list > : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > : >>>> nabs-l: > : >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com > : >>>> > : >>>> > : >>>> > : >>>> _______________________________________________ > : >>>> nabs-l mailing list > : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > : >>>> nabs-l: > : >>>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > : >> Hi, Misty and all, > : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me and > : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado > : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, but > : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things > : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, and > : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget it. > : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being > : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I was > : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are > : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but workplaces > : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk why > I > : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for > : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my parents > : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to refuse > : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. They > : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is > : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and > it's > : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't possibly > : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely not > : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and > because > : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd > rather > : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in and > : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." > : >> Beth > : >> > : >> _______________________________________________ > : >> nabs-l mailing list > : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > : >> nabs-l: > : >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > : > > : > > : > -- > : > Kaiti > : > > : > _______________________________________________ > : > nabs-l mailing list > : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > : > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com > : > : _______________________________________________ > : nabs-l mailing list > : nabs-l at nfbnet.org > : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 13 15:20:16 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 10:20:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridgit, no it was involving regular print newspapers. -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:32 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Ashley, Couldn't you have accessed newspapers via online or even newsline? I had to scour newspapers for an English class and one of my public relations classes, and I accessed them online with few problems. Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:01:25 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Message-ID: <4DF4DBA07EA74CA296F25E6E0789E8AC at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original RJ, I'm in the minority here. But I have the same questions. I have to wonder if the students at the nfb centers really got all the skills and confidence they need to get out and find a job. I, too, have met some blind people who went to centers who are not employed. I have not met anyone sitting at home with family. But they do sit around collecting welfare checks in order to live a basic life. Its very very sad. RJ, it just goes to show that no matter what training you get, it does not gaurantee success. Some people simply don't have the gusto or advocacy skills to get jobs. Its harder to get a job as a blind person. You have to advocate and educate the employers. I remember calling up a nonprofit, national crime prevention council, NCPC, to get a communications internship. I was responding to an ad on my school's career database. I had to explain who I was and see if the job was too visual to do. It turns out that I could not do a main part of the job as it involved reading newspapers to search for certain stories. So, long story short, I explained I could not read printed newspapers but I could do other tasks and said what it was. I had to sell my skills in order not to be written off. So, they made another internship for me and I still did a few communications tasks like press releases. But, I had to do some advocacy and education; I had to explain jaws too and they were accomodating as I installed jaws there. So I got that unpaid internship. It takes a lot to get a job. Just because we have a large unemployment rate, does not mean centers are bad. Oh, and I do not believe the statistic anyway; I think its an inflated lie. Everyone I know in nfb is employed except for a few people in other chapters. I also think that 70 percent stat is way outdated and it includes people with multiple disabilities. So, to conclude, no center is perfect but I'd have to say it does a lot to help you be an independent person in life. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 16:08:02 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:08:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Printed newspaper articles are all online. I have to find news articles all the time for my classes and I've never had a problem accessing them online, even the obscure ones. On 11/13/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Bridgit, > no it was involving regular print newspapers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 10:32 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > > Ashley, > > Couldn't you have accessed newspapers via online or even newsline? I had > to scour newspapers for an English class and one of my public relations > classes, and I accessed them online with few problems. > > Bridgit > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 18:01:25 -0500 > From: "Ashley Bramlett" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > Message-ID: <4DF4DBA07EA74CA296F25E6E0789E8AC at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > RJ, > I'm in the minority here. But I have the same questions. > I have to wonder if the students at the nfb centers really got all the > skills and confidence they need to get out and find a job. > I, too, have met some blind people who went to centers who are not > employed. > I have not met anyone sitting at home with family. But they do sit > around > collecting welfare checks in order to live a basic life. > Its very very sad. > RJ, it just goes to show that no matter what training you get, it does > not > gaurantee success. > Some people simply don't have the gusto or advocacy skills to get jobs. > Its > harder to get a job as a blind person. > You have to advocate and educate the employers. I remember calling up a > > nonprofit, national crime prevention council, > NCPC, to get a communications internship. I was responding to an ad on > my > school's career database. > I had to explain who I was and see if the job was too visual to do. It > turns out that I could not do a main part of the job as it involved > reading > newspapers to search for certain stories. > So, long story short, I explained I could not read printed newspapers > but I > could do other tasks and said what it was. > I had to sell my skills in order not to be written off. > So, they made another internship for me and I still did a few > communications > tasks like press releases. > But, I had to do some advocacy and education; I had to explain jaws too > and > they were accomodating as I installed jaws there. > > So I got that unpaid internship. > It takes a lot to get a job. > Just because we have a large unemployment rate, does not mean centers > are > bad. > Oh, and I do not believe the statistic anyway; I think its an inflated > lie. > Everyone I know in nfb is employed except for a few people in other > chapters. > I also think that 70 percent stat is way outdated and it includes people > > with multiple disabilities. > > So, to conclude, no center is perfect but I'd have to say it does a lot > to > help you be an independent person in life. > > Ashley > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 16:30:39 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:30:39 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Community-service] {Disarmed} What is Service-Learning? | National Service-Learning Clearinghouse References: <8DBF3B99-FD85-4FF6-913C-6AD4AE4F0600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <015CCDF4-7EB1-4EA6-BB74-E8CC77DE7E6D@gmail.com> From the community service listserv. What do you know about the concept of service learning? Does it have potential for blind students and the larger organization of the Federation? This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. Begin forwarded message: > From: Darian Smith > Date: November 12, 2013 at 10:32:54 AM PST > To: Mary Ann Mendez , Christine Parsons , Kaiti Shelton , Catherine Michele Mitchell , Corina Salinas > Cc: Community Service Discussion List > Subject: [Community-service] {Disarmed} What is Service-Learning? | National Service-Learning Clearinghouse > Reply-To: Community Service Discussion List > > var NREUMQ=NREUMQ||[];NREUMQ.push(["mark","firstbyte",new Date().getTime()]); Hi all, > something to think about… what does this mean to you? what can this mean for our group/division to be? > Darian > National Service-Learning Clearinghouse America's Most Comprehensive Service-Learning Resource > HomeConnect and ShareAbout NSLCLogin > Choose a path through the site: > Browse By Topic > Browse By Resource Type > Browse By What You Do > > > SHARE THIS > > PRINT THIS PAGE > What is Service-Learning? > Service-Learning is a teaching and learning strategy that integrates meaningful community service with instruction and reflection to enrich the learning experience, teach civic responsibility, and strengthen communities. > Through service-learning, young people—from kindergarteners to college students—use what they learn in the classroom to solve real-life problems. They not only learn the practical applications of their studies, they become actively contributing citizens and community members through the service they perform. > Service-learning can be applied in a wide variety of settings, including schools, universities, and community-based and faith-based organizations. It can involve a group of students, a classroom or an entire school. Students build character and become active participants as they work with others in their school and community to create service projects in areas such as education, public safety, and the environment. > Community members, students, and educators everywhere are discovering that service-learning offers all its participants a chance to take part in the active education of youth while simultaneously addressing the concerns, needs, and hopes of communities. > What Service-Learning Looks Like > If school students collect trash out of an urban streambed, they are providing a valued service to the community as volunteers. If school students collect trash from an urban streambed, analyze their findings to determine the possible sources of pollution, and share the results with residents of the neighborhood, they are engaging in service-learning. > In the service-learning example, in addition to providing an important service to the community, students are learning about water quality and laboratory analysis, developing an understanding of pollution issues, and practicing communications skills. They may also reflect on their personal and career interests in science, the environment, public policy or other related areas. Both the students and the community have been involved in a transformative experience. > Examples of Service-Learning > Elementary school students in Florida studied the consequences of natural disasters. The class designed a kit for families to use to collect their important papers in case of evacuation, which students distributed to community members. > Middle school students in Pennsylvania learned about the health consequences of poor nutrition and lack of exercise, and then brought their learning to life by conducting health fairs, creating a healthy cookbook, and opening a fruit and vegetable stand for the school and community. > Girl Scouts in West Virginia investigated the biological complexity and diversity of wetlands. Learning of the need to eliminate invasive species, the scouts decided to monitor streams and then presented their findings to their Town Council. > University students in Michigan looked for ways to support struggling local non-profit organizations during difficult economic times. Graduate communication students honed their skills while providing a wide variety of public relations services with community partners, including developing press kits and managing event coordination. > Each of the examples above shows how service-learning is integrating meaningful community service with instruction and reflection in order to enrich the learning experience, teach civic responsibility, and strengthen our communities. > See more service-learning success stories. > More Information: > Characteristics of Service-Learning > Frequently Asked Questions > Historical Timeline > About Us: > About the National Service-Learning Clearinghouse > > Copyright © 2013 ETR Associates. All rights reserved. > What is Service-Learning > Sitemap > Help > Accessibility > Privacy > if(!NREUMQ.f){NREUMQ.f=function(){NREUMQ.push(["load",new Date().getTime()]);var e=document.createElement("script");e.type="text/javascript";e.src=(("http:"===document.location.protocol)?"http:":"https:")+"//"+"js-agent.newrelic.com/nr-100.js";document.body.appendChild(e);if(NREUMQ.a)NREUMQ.a();};NREUMQ.a=window.onload;window.onload=NREUMQ.f;};NREUMQ.push(["nrfj","beacon-6.newrelic.com","58b8074454","2052269","Y1AHZ0dTXkVSVkdcVloaJFBBW19YHFtcUVxrRQRUUG1GX1ZC",0,550,new Date().getTime(),"","","","",""]); > > _______________________________________________ > Community-service mailing list > Community-service at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/community-service_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Community-service: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/community-service_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Wed Nov 13 18:05:56 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 13:05:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <980B63DC-9EAC-4992-8B03-B7969ADFB088@gmail.com> References: <249401cedf23$93204ca0$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <18141A82748B448EBE608E01F4253B15@OwnerPC> <260d01cedf30$35eb7250$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <007b01cedfc2$8087b570$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <004601cedfdc$5dad9820$0902a8c0@S0032244625> <20131112204200.347841071EE@mailgate.serotek.com> <5282BA77.7000407@gmail.com> <2FF56AE6088A44DFBF0C62D969DF7527@OwnerPC> <5282D497.3010904@gmail.com> <1EB889108F1D406A9FEC0EC807791212@OwnerPC> <980B63DC-9EAC-4992-8B03-B7969ADFB088@gmail.com> Message-ID: <13B9BAC3-6E50-4743-924C-9A3BFE38C025@aol.com> Hi Ryan, Did you attend the Carroll Center? I completed the youth and transition and real world of work experience prior to attending a school for the blind. I loved it though I wish I had a little more freedom on YIT to make choices. The real world of work program is great. I had so much independence at 16 I felt just like any other youth with a summer job. Able to get to my work site independently and complete my tasks with no one to help was great. Bridget Sent from my iPad On Nov 13, 2013, at 6:33 AM, Ryan Silveira wrote: > Hi all, > > This is a very good discussion to serve as my introduction to this list. > > The selection of which training center to attend is really a matter of personal preference. As has already been pointed out, different training centers have different styles. They also work differently with different age groups. For example, when training at the Caroll Center for the Blind in Newton, Massachusetts as an adult is very different than attending one of their summer programs (e.g. > Youth in Transition or the work experience program). One has a lot more freedom as an adult to go around the city or into Boston as they please, based on their skill level. I also agree with Kaitie that criticism is dished out in various ways. It is important that you know how you handle criticism and that you use that to match > yourself with a center where the instructors suit your personality. The only thing you, Kaitie, said with which I don't agree is that one should ask the directors of the training center to give them insight on how things are run. The director can give some insight, but if you are using that information to choose which training center to attend, you would be much better off asking a former or current student of that training center as any director or staff is likely to advertise, whether consciously or unconsciously, their own center. Also, keep in mind the philosophy of each center and choose which best suits your personality. Hope this helps. > > Ryan L. Silveira > > On Nov 12, 2013, at 9:22 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > >> Jedi, >> Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like they treated people respectfully but may go overboard some but as you said all humans do this sometimes. >> I am glad LCB has the accountability to students to have them dress cleanly. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Moerke >> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 8:55 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> That was my message. And I don't think I said that boundaries are often crossed. What I said was that sometimes, staff occasionally offered criticism that, while probably well meant, wasn't really that helpful or necessary. And frankly, sometimes, as a student, I occasionally got criticism that I felt wasn't anyone's place to give. But that's just my opinion. If nothing else, it provided me an opportunity to practice self advocacy skills and to politely let people know that, in a given situation, a decision was mine to make. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 7:23 PM, Desiree Oudinot wrote: >>> >>> Yes, I do think that docking pay or telling someone to change their clothes are fair. But it's really all in how it's done. >>> Furthermore, the part of the message in question that I took issue with is, and I'm paraphrasing but the basic idea is intact, that personal boundaries were often crossed. I don't know in what context this was meant, but even as a blanket statement, that is not ok in my book. >>> >>>> On 11/12/2013 7:46 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> Desiree and Ashley, >>>> >>>> You bring up some very good points. I also don't know which message >>>> this comment was in, but it could also be one person's perception of >>>> the centers. >>>> >>>> In thinking about it, I can see why they dock pay for late arrival, >>>> and make you change into clean clothes if you do not come in them, as >>>> that teaches professionalism to those who might not have it already. >>>> But, it depends on what the criticism is, and how it's being dished >>>> out. Or, it could just be that certain people take things that aren't >>>> meant to be criticisms more harshly than they are meant to be. >>>> However, the centers do have students with psychological disorders and >>>> other disabilities in addition to blindness, so I agree they need to >>>> be mindful of that if what was said is truly the case. >>>> >>>> Again, I think the best people to ask about these sorts of things are >>>> the directors themselves. >>>> >>>> I have never heard of someone being scorned in the federation for >>>> having multiple disabilities, and think that if the federation were to >>>> do so it would be totally counterintuitive to the disability rights >>>> efforts going on. A lot of the laws the NFB is trying to push through >>>> are not just for blind people, but for people with all kinds of >>>> disabilities. "Fair wages for workers with disabilities act," not >>>> "fair wages for blind workers." The Teach act is the same way, and so >>>> on and so forth. I agree that if you experienced this, it was >>>> probably just individuals who don't have a very good perspective on >>>> disabilities, not the fault of the organization itself. >>>> >>>>> On 11/12/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>>>> Desiree, >>>>> Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to. >>>>> At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism? >>>>> If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they >>>>> >>>>> say something and have you change? >>>>> I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating >>>>> skills at pittsburg; that is good. >>>>> >>>>> I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you >>>>> can build self esteem then. >>>>> Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it >>>>> seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self >>>>> >>>>> confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came >>>>> out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible. >>>>> I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist. >>>>> So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and >>>>> harshness certainly does not help me. >>>>> My feelings get hurt easily and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am >>>>> >>>>> stressed out and have anxiety. >>>>> I do not take pressure well. >>>>> >>>>> So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm >>>>> not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people, >>>>> the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be >>>>> the best fit for all of us. >>>>> >>>>> I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was >>>>> not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt >>>>> disoriented and very vunerable. >>>>> You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic >>>>> and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a >>>>> surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some >>>>> turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance. >>>>> I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have >>>>> problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area. >>>>> I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at >>>>> >>>>> malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain >>>>> department. >>>>> I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about >>>>> >>>>> my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions >>>>> strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that endeavor, I think it >>>>> was helpful. But not for outside travel. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We >>>>> should chat about the PA center. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Desiree Oudinot >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there >>>>> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle. >>>>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect >>>>> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be >>>>> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question >>>>> seemed to imply that this happened regularly. >>>>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but >>>>> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly >>>>> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve >>>>> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up, >>>>> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope >>>>> that this is a priority. >>>>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large, >>>>> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being >>>>> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional >>>>> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge >>>>> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who >>>>> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems >>>>> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing >>>>> down like a house of cards! >>>>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't >>>>> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind >>>>> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy. >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote: >>>>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact, >>>>>> >>>>>> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was >>>>>> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana >>>>>> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively >>>>>> >>>>>> than anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at all, it is from >>>>>> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of >>>>>> >>>>>> its training centers. While I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some >>>>>> >>>>>> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the >>>>>> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization >>>>>> >>>>>> is not accurate. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Good morning, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> After associating with, both on and off school time with students >>>>>>> >>>>>>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what >>>>>>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life >>>>>>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until >>>>>>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead. >>>>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped" >>>>>>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw >>>>>>> >>>>>>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car >>>>>>> 408-209-3239wrote: >>>>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> attend a center.RJ >>>>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a >>>>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave >>>>>>>> Florida, >>>>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive >>>>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have >>>>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then. >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I >>>>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term. When we refer to training >>>>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana >>>>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc. >>>>>>>>> Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and >>>>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different. >>>>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of >>>>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills. >>>>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to >>>>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy >>>>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center >>>>>>>>> directors. They're all great people, and could probably do the best >>>>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer. ; >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in every state. I know >>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great >>>>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent >>>>>>>>>>> contractors >>>>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least, >>>>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with >>>>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help >>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least. >>>>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain >>>>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school >>>>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to >>>>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address, >>>>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who >>>>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to >>>>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance >>>>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community >>>>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really >>>>>>>>>>> designed >>>>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to >>>>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of >>>>>>>>>>> academic >>>>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't >>>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>>> exactly how. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Arielle >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it >>>>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I >>>>>>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or >>>>>>>>>>>> not, >>>>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have >>>>>>>>>>>> helped >>>>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of >>>>>>>> listing >>>>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cindy >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills >>>>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> read >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ >>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> RJ, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to a center graduate and >>>>>>>> you'll >>>>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rehabilitation >>>>>>>>>>>>>> centers >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sight >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> children, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people >>>>>>>> without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the >>>>>>>> world >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> polite, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room >>>>>>>>>> appearing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and >>>>>>>> mentally, >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human >>>>>>>>>> nature. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this >>>>>>>>>> background, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do >>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >>>>>>>>>> gain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> success >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>>>>>> employment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few >>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I >>>>>>>>>> learned >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together; >>>>>>>> she >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach >>>>>>>>>> myself >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't >>>>>>>> see >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from >>>>>>>> society >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had >>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go >>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> skills >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. >>>>>>>>>>>>> net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington >>>>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai >>>>>>>> l.com >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Kaiti >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>>>>>> ail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com >>>>> -- >>>>> Desiree >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> >>> -- >>> Desiree >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Nov 13 18:20:46 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:20:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5283C2FE.70000@comcast.net> On 11/12/2013 8:24 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Why do you assume it's the training center and not employers still > buying into stereotypes and negative perceptions? And the 70% > unemployment rate always mentioned is a little misleading because this > number includes children, seniors and those enable to work for health > reasons. So while the number is still too high, it's not 70%. > > I know blind people more than capable, out there trying to find work, > and many employers won't give them the time of day merely because they > are blind. This isn't always the case, but in my experience, the > untrained, under-qualified blind people sitting at home don't want to > work and are not out looking for employment. So the blind people seeking > jobs tend to be more than capable of working, but employers don't want > to hire blind people. This recently happened to my husband because the > company didn't want to deal with supplying or allowing accomodations. An > investigation is currently underway with this company now. He's more > than qualified with his degree, 15 years of work experience and > currently pursuing a second degree. > > And with the current economic situation, many people are sitting at home > unemployed. For the first time in years, college graduates are back > living with parents because the jobs just aren't there. > > So there's more to this picture than you present. For someone going on > about living in the real world, you should really consider all the > variables and present a bigger picture because there's more to this > story. > > Bridgit > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:47:31 -0500 > From: "RJ Sandefur" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world > Message-ID: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or > they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but > the > proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone > says > they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not > employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers > who > sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? > Apparently > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > I am also thinking you didn't think of those with psychiatric illnesses. We are discriminated against so often we don't get jobs as it is, and 80% of mentally ill women who give birth to children are in danger of having those kids taken away. Those kids need to be with good families, but I would prefer it if the judges wouldn't just stereotype the mentally ill in all one basket. Training centers aren't always equipped to deal with dual disabilities. Beth From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 19:48:57 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:48:57 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E7F6F7B-1EB9-4509-84E5-DD319203190F@gmail.com> That is an excellent point that Arielle brings up. The biggest thing is that one game skills and confidence that allows them to be successful once they leave the center. That might be a month, it might be six months, it might even take a year. If you can get the time and you can make the most out of it, I think that is the most important and most essential point. Darian This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:45 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > One little-known fact about NFB centers is that some people attend > them for less than six months. Though at least six months is usually > required to get an official graduation ceremony and a bell, a course > of 3-5 months or even less can still be beneficial, and in the real > world, it really doesn't matter if you receive a bell or not. I know > several people who benefited tremendously from attending a center > summer program or a 3-month stint in the adult program. I even have a > friend who attended CCB for only a month after his wife passed away > and he wanted to brush up on his cooking skills even though he was > employed and had excellent skills in all the other areas. He paid for > the training himself and I think he thought it was worthwhile even for > just a month. If you call the center and say you only want to come for > three months they aren't going to turn you away. > > Arielle > >> On 11/11/13, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Ummm... This may have nothing to do with blindness and training or lack >> thereof, but when consistently posting with errors and misspellings, it >> doesn't assist in the argument against a training center, particularly >> when written by a blind person. >> >> Bridgit >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 19:54:33 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 11:54:33 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] lighting candles; was: Training centers not the real world In-Reply-To: <088A7A16-FBB7-4FCC-8B9D-0A523F5A57FB@gmail.com> References: <82BE1FBD7259411ABA7E5329A7D57CDB@OwnerPC> <088A7A16-FBB7-4FCC-8B9D-0A523F5A57FB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6674FF54-4126-4A77-8C08-C8B0C8A66DFF@gmail.com> I have used a standard lighter to light candles. I've also used matches, though I personally find that I struggle with that method. I currently use a charcoal lighter and am happy with that method. This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:17 PM, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: > > Don't remember who said this, but what are your suggestions as far as lighting candles non-visually? My Center basically told me not to do it. > > Lora > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 11, 2013, at 6:52 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >> >> Bridgit, >> I know options are not as readily available. That is why I asked rj if this lady had looked at other options. >> I am fully aware that options are scarce. In VA, you either go to the center or receive field training which is so infrequent that it will not help much. >> >> I believe we need other options. If you have children or care for parents or something family related, its very hard to leave and go to training. >> >> I wish there were more day centers for people to go to and then they can take care of business after training at night. >> I think its terrible about the funding. Yes, I know that vr does not fund training for seniors and those with no employment goal. >> >> In my state, we have terrible services for home based service. >> You can go to the state residential center in richmond va. >> But, if you cannot, or such center does not meet your needs, >> little options exist. Every office has field staff, but their caseloads are way, way too high. >> We have home based O&M and rehab teachers. >> However, they come so in frequently that little learning can occur. >> I think a volunteer system is an excellent idea. >> We actually have that for technology training. Those in the DC area meaning DC, northern VA, and MD >> have the opportunity to partake in assistive technology training at the Martin Luther >> King library in DC on G street. But this means they have to have transportation there and be willing to get out of the house which some newly blind people are not able or willing to do and if you're sick, well that is an issue too. >> So, those who can go to the MLK library can participate in volunteer assistive tech training. >> They can learn jaws, Zoomtext, braille notetakers, scanners, and talking book players. >> Additionally, the MLK library offers a IOS training on certain tuesdays. >> You can have training on the apple devices or even android now. Android is very new and they have few volunteers for that. >> >> If that wasn't enough, the MLK library also offers technology camps for youth, or at least they used to. >> They offer a braille book club on one Saturday a month. Also, they offer seminars on technology and recreation for those who are hearing impaired or vision impaired; separate seminars since our needs are different and these are free. >> I am quite upset that funding is not available for services from the dc lighthouse in my county, yet in the next county it is. >> I want to partake in some advanced computer training from the columbia lighthouse for the blind. >> But no funding is covered in my area and it would leave me paying out of pocket. >> >> I wish more volunteer programs existed like at MLK library for other areas of life like teaching braille. >> Totally good points. I'm glad you >> healed and were able to attend the iowa center. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 5:20 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> Ashley, >> >> The options aren't as readily available as you present here. This is a >> major obstacle for pretty much all training centers, and this includes >> the NFB centers. >> >> Bottom line, if you can't attend in-house training, or at least attend >> as a day student every day for the duration of the 6 to 9 months, most >> are out of luck. And finding a two-day or weekend program isn't enough >> to teach the skills. These are just introductory programs to allow >> people the opportunity to see what training would be like. And other >> institutions aren't equipped to provide the kind of home training you >> suggest or even offer day programs. >> >> The biggest issue is funding, and a little secret, the government >> doesn't want to pay for training for seniors or stay-at-home parents or >> the sick because they are determined unemployable, and therefore will >> not put money back into the system. This is the reality for any agency >> working with people with disabilities. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 15 >> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:18:55 -0500 >> From: "Ashley Bramlett" >> To: , "National Association of Blind Students >> mailing list" >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=response >> >> Tyler, >> No its not an issue with training centers. If people cannot go to one >> due to >> circumstances, that does not invalidate the work the center does. >> It just shows more options need to be available. I'd like to see more >> home >> based teaching where a teacher comes to your home to teach you privately >> >> using your own equipment and marking them if needed. >> >> Rj, your friend should look at other options. Has she asked about >> receiving >> services from her vr agency? >> They may contract with itenerant O&M and rehab teaching specialists who >> can >> help her at home. >> Has she investigated community options such as a lighthouse? If she >> lives in >> NC, there is the Metrolina Association for the blind; if in GA, there >> are >> two day centers such as the Center for the visually impaired in Atlanta. >> Those are just a few examples. TThere may be options. You just have to >> find >> them. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 20:34:21 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:34:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? In-Reply-To: <528391AF.5040507@tysdomain.com> References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> <528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> <528391AF.5040507@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hi all, If only, Tyler... a like button would be nice, but I agree with you. I think what happens far too often, that is the source of all these problems that blind students face, is that they are lazy as Ian said. I have heard my share of stories from people who say, "Well, I shouldn't have to do this because it's not fair," or they try to pawn their responsibilities off on the teacher or some other entity with the parent going to bat for them, vicariously pulling the blind card. I am not saying teachers and others do not have certain responsibilities in the education of blind students, as Ian is right in that a lot of people do, but the student has responsibilities too. It is not always fair; I can remember doing much more work and taking much more time to do it than my sighted classmates, and it is something I am even dealing with now in one of my music theory classes in college. What takes some students an hour can take me three or four, and from what I've seen I seem to have a lot more frustration with it because it is visual and therefore more difficult for me to understand, but that's all we can do if we want to succeed. Work harder, smarter, and be more diligent in our studies and other aspects of our lives than our typical classmates. That is something we will face in the real world, and that is why it is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children this concept at an early age. I wish all parents would reem their kids for this kind of behavior the first time they see it---for me it was about 4th grade, and I credit my parents and my TVI with catching it early and preventing this attitude to prevail through the rest of my education. It has served me well. But, I also credit my parents with fighting for me, for picking up the school's slack at times, and for teaching me all they could. They made sure I got into music theory classes before college so I could come in ahead, they made sure I took AP courses so I could get used to the volume of material that would be covered in a college course, and they helped me to be prepared to be independent and function away from home. Were they perfect? By no means no, but they tried to do the best they could with the things Ian pointed out. I think a lot of the responsibility falls on the parents, because they have to oversee the school following through, as well as the child. Parents can make all the difference in the world. On 11/13/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Ian: > Listserves really need a like button. I agree 1000% with this message, > though I assume those who are "entitled" will just let it whoosh over > their heads and those who understand your point are already putting a > lot of this into practice anyway. > > On 11/13/2013 9:35 AM, I. C. Bray wrote: >> To all of whom have posted on this thread. >> >> While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness skills, >> education, and professional careers, there is something we all have in >> common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I myself have had >> problems in both Public School, in College, and Adult Blindness Training >> Centers. >> Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, and >> my >> objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going to indicate >> which schools I attended. >> I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school for >> the >> Blind". >> Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind >> students. >> Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These >> institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus, Listening >> Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an eventual High >> School >> equelevant Education. All of this is presumptive that the student is >> capable of attaining that High School Education. >> There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic >> conditions >> who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of attaining much more >> for >> themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years later. >> I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in my >> Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to Engineering >> School with the full support of my math, physics, and myguidance >> counselors. >> I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The plain & >> simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the ability to use >> alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were useless because I >> was >> too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't understand and trying to >> decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level of Mathematics I did not >> understand the point of. >> Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what they are >> trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND until AFTER YOU >> ARE FINISHED. >> For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just >> because >> you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision impairment is >> absurd. >> The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't or >> don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what they need, >> want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous. >> Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are correct; >> The >> education is not up to higher Public Education Standards. Simillarly, >> Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and Secondary ) are required by >> Federal >> Law to provide EVERY student presented to them a suitable Education. At >> this point, is up to parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's >> opportunity. Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be >> successful >> because parents are not often aware of their options. School Systems >> take >> this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money they are already >> short >> on toward the specific needs of a substantially small number of students. >> College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger >> population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource >> Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to the >> importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you are >> STILL >> going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, andinsufficient >> training of instructors. >> I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time with >> regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive >> Curricula" >> seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to modiffy or >> enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the actual number of >> those >> who actually do. >> Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it... >> which >> usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly. >> Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The truthful >> answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's >> responsibility. >> >> When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab. >> Center, >> or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for learning the >> material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often is involved with >> textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and you ar going to have >> to >> utilize whatever protest options available until you are so tired of it >> that >> it seems worthless. >> You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the mired-down >> attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed that they are >> illequipped to help you. >> >> ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are supposed to >> help >> you, and when things go wrong, you seek appointments with Department >> Heads, >> University Provosts, and Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go to >> the Accredidation boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding >> comes >> from and you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you save >> coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you >> have >> 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the >> desire >> to make lots of money and you get things worked out. >> Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes there >> is, >> but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late. >> Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. Insist >> upon >> having your instructors explain verbally, things that you are not able to >> see. Remain professional, and polite at all times. Get a friend to take >> pictures so someone can describe them later. When a professor tells you >> you >> are not allowed to record his lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent >> it. >> If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by that >> Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, or Provost. >> Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to the >> situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have to be that >> useless flashlight for the sighted community. >> Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you think >> your instructor is. >> Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee >> instructors >> attitudes change. >> Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a >> ridiculous >> notion. You may one day need it. >> Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age! >> The >> more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read ahead in >> your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you before you hear >> it. >> Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, and >> check >> it over it until you know it's right. >> Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask >> questions!! >> Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if you are >> wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested and engaged >> in >> your learning that will help you succeed. >> Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, you are >> responsible for what happens to you. >> Cheers, >> Ian C. Bray >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridget Walker" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> >> >> : Hi Katy, >> : >> : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a >> school >> for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is >> just >> what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as a >> future educator I will never let something like this happen. People >> always >> ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some reason >> they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are >> blind >> setting an example in the public school. >> : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I feel >> misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their own >> little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these >> modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. >> It's >> a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my >> techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as any >> other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. >> : >> : Bridget >> : >> : Sent from my iPad >> : >> : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton >> >> wrote: >> : >> : > Bridget, >> : > >> : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the >> : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the >> : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of >> : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not >> : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you >> : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror >> stories >> : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people who >> : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there >> : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and >> now >> : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because >> : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I >> : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids >> : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at >> least, >> : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years >> of >> : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind >> : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty >> : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've >> : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in >> : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify >> : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could >> : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. >> : > >> : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment >> made >> : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts >> : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their >> : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is >> : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be >> : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant >> : > descrimination. >> : > >> : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >> : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> : >>> Hi all, >> : >>> >> : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I >> am >> : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >> : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. >> : >>> >> : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >> : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >> : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the >> individual >> : >>> person. >> : >>> >> : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >> : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked >> to, >> : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >> : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >> : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for >> the >> : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the >> choice >> : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >> : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a >> very >> : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over >> me >> : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at >> the >> : >>> time. >> : >>> >> : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >> : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on >> the >> : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that >> most >> : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >> : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities >> in >> : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >> : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >> : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >> : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is >> the >> : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are >> capable >> : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on >> to >> : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do >> not >> : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, >> and >> : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >> : >>> process. >> : >>> >> : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's >> ability >> : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically >> talk >> : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which >> hosted >> : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >> : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine >> participated >> : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >> : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >> : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >> : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of >> my >> : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >> : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >> : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >> : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >> : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of >> our >> : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who >> was >> : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >> : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand >> that >> : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, >> but >> : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him >> better. >> : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up >> for >> : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to >> do >> : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama >> club >> : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >> : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >> : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools >> for >> : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >> : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, >> is >> : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >> : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, >> and >> : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >> : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other >> subjects >> : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in >> cases >> : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of >> the >> : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >> : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >> : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the >> solutions >> : >>> we came up with to work. >> : >>> >> : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >> :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >> : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help >> me >> : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the >> claim >> : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >> : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step >> back, >> : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to >> learn >> : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and >> I >> : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I >> had >> : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >> : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through >> experience >> : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >> : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, >> but >> : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has >> ended >> : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when >> I >> : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact >> that >> : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >> : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >> : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they >> have >> : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >> : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability >> to >> : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >> : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >> : >>> >> : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >> : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a >> textbook >> : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >> : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >> : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour >> away >> : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more >> self-sufficient, >> : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >> : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >> : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I >> could >> : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >> : >>> least. >> : >>> >> : >>> Just my thoughts. >> : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >> : >>>> RJ, >> : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever >> : >>>> center >> : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made >> for >> her >> : >>>> to >> : >>>> >> : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a >> dormitory >> : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >> : >>>> dormitories, >> : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child >> to >> : >>>> stay >> : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your >> friend >> may >> : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child >> while >> she >> : >>>> is >> : >>>> >> : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the >> center >> : >>>> may >> : >>>> >> : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work >> with >> her >> : >>>> on >> : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training >> successfully. >> : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, >> but >> : >>>> the >> : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also >> help >> me >> : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the >> opportunity >> to >> : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to >> attend >> : >>>> next >> : >>>> >> : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open >> to >> me >> : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything >> out >> so >> : >>>> I >> : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to >> allow >> : >>>> me >> : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but >> your >> : >>>> friend >> : >>>> >> : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of >> any >> of >> : >>>> the >> : >>>> >> : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with >> her >> : >>>> on >> : >>>> it. >> : >>>> Thanks, >> : >>>> Misty >> : >>>> >> : >>>> >> : >>>> -----Original Message----- >> : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson >> : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >> : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> : >>>> >> : >>>> RJ, >> : >>>> >> : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual >> case >> : >>>> such >> : >>>> as that of your friend. In general, >> : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well >> might >> : >>>> mean >> : >>>> >> : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long >> : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >> : >>>> confident >> : >>>> independent traveler without putting in >> : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a >> confident >> : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to >> : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs >> to >> be, >> : >>>> or >> : >>>> to be there for that child. Your >> : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could >> take >> : >>>> care >> : >>>> of the child, and there could be other >> : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's >> child >> to >> : >>>> take >> : >>>> >> : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to >> : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >> : >>>> >> : >>>> Best regards, >> : >>>> >> : >>>> Steve Jacobson >> : >>>> >> : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >> : >>>> >> : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four >> years >> : >>>>> ago. >> : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her >> to >> a >> : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >> : >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >> : >>>>> From: "minh ha" >> : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> : >>>>> >> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >> : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >> : >>>> >> : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >> saying >> : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need >> to >> : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >> : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >> : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence >> skills >> : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend >> training >> : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >> : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired >> over >> : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember >> growing >> : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >> : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so >> we >> : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a >> stove, >> : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I >> want >> to >> : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to >> teach >> : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to >> essentially >> : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can >> gain >> : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in >> college >> : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >> : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best >> teacher--I >> can >> : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's >> not >> : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >> : >>>>> Minh >> : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >> : >>>>>> Hi all, >> : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >> : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand >> them) >> : >>>>>> is >> : >>>>> that >> : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in >> skills >> : >>>>>> that >> : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >> : >>>>> classmates. >> : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are >> adapted >> : >>>>>> for >> : >>>>> the >> : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not >> always >> : >>>>> readily >> : >>>>>> available . >> : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills >> that >> : >>>>>> will >> : >>>>> help >> : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and >> succeed >> : >>>>>> in >> : >>>>> the >> : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that >> enable >> : >>>>>> us >> : >>>>> to >> : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only >> can >> : >>>>>> we >> : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that >> this >> : >>>>>> should >> : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >> : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >> : >>>>> environments >> : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that >> generally >> : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real >> world >> : >>>>>> in >> : >>>>> a >> : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave >> you >> : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >> : >>>>>> Darian >> : >>>>>> >> : >>>>>> >> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info >> for >> : >>>>>> nabs-l: >> : >>>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> : >>>> >> : >>>>> -- >> : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >> dusty >> : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >> vanity: >> : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act >> on >> : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >> Lawrence >> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> : >>>>> nabs-l: >> : >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >> : >>>>> ail.com >> : >>>> >> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> : >>>>> nabs-l: >> : >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >> : >>>> >> : >>>> >> : >>>> >> : >>>> >> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> : >>>> nabs-l: >> : >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >> : >>>> >> : >>>> >> : >>>> >> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> : >>>> nabs-l: >> : >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> : >> Hi, Misty and all, >> : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me >> and >> : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado >> : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, >> but >> : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things >> : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, >> and >> : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget >> it. >> : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being >> : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I >> was >> : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are >> : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but >> workplaces >> : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk >> why >> I >> : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for >> : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my >> parents >> : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to >> refuse >> : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. >> They >> : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is >> : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and >> it's >> : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't >> possibly >> : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely >> not >> : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and >> because >> : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd >> rather >> : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in >> and >> : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." >> : >> Beth >> : >> >> : >> _______________________________________________ >> : >> nabs-l mailing list >> : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> : >> nabs-l: >> : >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> : > >> : > >> : > -- >> : > Kaiti >> : > >> : > _______________________________________________ >> : > nabs-l mailing list >> : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> : > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >> : >> : _______________________________________________ >> : nabs-l mailing list >> : nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Nov 13 20:35:05 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 12:35:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> <528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> Message-ID: Good afternoon, Ian, What a laundry list! While I don't take that extreme initiative with my education, I also have not been challenged to get what i need academically. Those do, however, remain good ideas that you pointed out for the blind student who's facing resistance as he strives to succeed. Again, thank you, Ian! for today, Car 408-209-3239 06:35 AM 11/13/2013, I. C. Bray wrote: >To all of whom have posted on this thread. > >While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness skills, >education, and professional careers, there is something we all have in >common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I myself have had >problems in both Public School, in College, and Adult Blindness Training >Centers. >Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, and my >objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going to indicate >which schools I attended. >I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school for the >Blind". >Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind students. >Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These >institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus, Listening >Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an eventual High School >equelevant Education. All of this is presumptive that the student is >capable of attaining that High School Education. >There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic conditions >who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of attaining much more for >themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years later. >I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in my >Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to Engineering >School with the full support of my math, physics, and myguidance counselors. >I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The plain & >simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the ability to use >alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were useless because I was >too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't understand and trying to >decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level of Mathematics I did not >understand the point of. >Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what they are >trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND until AFTER YOU >ARE FINISHED. >For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just because >you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision impairment is absurd. >The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't or >don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what they need, >want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous. >Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are correct; The >education is not up to higher Public Education Standards. Simillarly, >Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and Secondary ) are required by Federal >Law to provide EVERY student presented to them a suitable Education. At >this point, is up to parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's >opportunity. Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be successful >because parents are not often aware of their options. School Systems take >this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money they are already short >on toward the specific needs of a substantially small number of students. >College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger >population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource >Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to the >importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you are STILL >going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, andinsufficient >training of instructors. >I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time with >regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive Curricula" >seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to modiffy or >enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the actual number of those >who actually do. >Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it... which >usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly. >Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The truthful >answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's responsibility. > >When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab. Center, >or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for learning the >material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often is involved with >textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and you ar going to have to >utilize whatever protest options available until you are so tired of it that >it seems worthless. >You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the mired-down >attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed that they are >illequipped to help you. > > ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are supposed to help >you, and when things go wrong, you seek appointments with Department Heads, >University Provosts, and Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go to >the Accredidation boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding comes >from and you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you save >coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you have >80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the desire >to make lots of money and you get things worked out. >Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes there is, >but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late. >Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. Insist upon >having your instructors explain verbally, things that you are not able to >see. Remain professional, and polite at all times. Get a friend to take >pictures so someone can describe them later. When a professor tells you you >are not allowed to record his lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent it. >If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by that >Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, or Provost. >Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to the >situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have to be that >useless flashlight for the sighted community. >Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you think >your instructor is. >Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee instructors >attitudes change. >Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a ridiculous >notion. You may one day need it. >Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age! The >more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read ahead in >your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you before you hear it. >Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, and check >it over it until you know it's right. >Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask questions!! >Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if you are >wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested and engaged in >your learning that will help you succeed. >Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, you are >responsible for what happens to you. >Cheers, >Ian C. Bray > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bridget Walker" >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world > > >: Hi Katy, >: >: I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a school >for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is just >what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as a >future educator I will never let something like this happen. People always >ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some reason >they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are blind >setting an example in the public school. >: One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I feel >misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their own >little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these >modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. It's >a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my >techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as any >other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. >: >: Bridget >: >: Sent from my iPad >: >: On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton >wrote: >: >: > Bridget, >: > >: > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the >: > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the >: > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of >: > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not >: > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you >: > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror stories >: > from people at several state schools, and even know older people who >: > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there >: > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and now >: > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because >: > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I >: > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids >: > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at least, >: > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years of >: > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind >: > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty >: > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've >: > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in >: > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify >: > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could >: > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. >: > >: > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment made >: > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts >: > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their >: > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is >: > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be >: > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant >: > descrimination. >: > >: > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >: >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >: >>> Hi all, >: >>> >: >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I am >: >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >: >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. >: >>> >: >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >: >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >: >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the individual >: >>> person. >: >>> >: >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >: >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked to, >: >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >: >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >: >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for the >: >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the choice >: >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >: >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a very >: >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over me >: >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at the >: >>> time. >: >>> >: >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >: >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on the >: >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that most >: >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >: >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities in >: >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >: >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >: >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >: >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is the >: >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are capable >: >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on to >: >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do not >: >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, and >: >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >: >>> process. >: >>> >: >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's ability >: >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically talk >: >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which hosted >: >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >: >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine participated >: >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >: >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >: >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >: >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of my >: >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >: >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >: >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >: >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >: >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of our >: >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who was >: >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >: >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand that >: >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, but >: >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him better. >: >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up for >: >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to do >: >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama club >: >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >: >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >: >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools for >: >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >: >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, is >: >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >: >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, and >: >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >: >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other subjects >: >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in cases >: >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of the >: >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >: >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >: >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the solutions >: >>> we came up with to work. >: >>> >: >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >:>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >: >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help me >: >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the claim >: >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >: >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step back, >: >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to learn >: >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and I >: >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I had >: >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >: >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through experience >: >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >: >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, but >: >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has ended >: >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when I >: >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact that >: >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >: >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >: >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they have >: >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >: >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability to >: >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >: >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >: >>> >: >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >: >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a textbook >: >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >: >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >: >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour away >: >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more self-sufficient, >: >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >: >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >: >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I could >: >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >: >>> least. >: >>> >: >>> Just my thoughts. >: >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >: >>>> RJ, >: >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever >: >>>> center >: >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made for >her >: >>>> to >: >>>> >: >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a dormitory >: >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >: >>>> dormitories, >: >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child to >: >>>> stay >: >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your friend >may >: >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child while >she >: >>>> is >: >>>> >: >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the >center >: >>>> may >: >>>> >: >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work with >her >: >>>> on >: >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training successfully. >: >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, >but >: >>>> the >: >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also help >me >: >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the opportunity >to >: >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to >attend >: >>>> next >: >>>> >: >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open to >me >: >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything out >so >: >>>> I >: >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to >allow >: >>>> me >: >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but your >: >>>> friend >: >>>> >: >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of any >of >: >>>> the >: >>>> >: >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with >her >: >>>> on >: >>>> it. >: >>>> Thanks, >: >>>> Misty >: >>>> >: >>>> >: >>>> -----Original Message----- >: >>>> From: Steve Jacobson >: >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >: >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >: >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >: >>>> >: >>>> RJ, >: >>>> >: >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual case >: >>>> such >: >>>> as that of your friend. In general, >: >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well >might >: >>>> mean >: >>>> >: >>>> for bringing up a child in the long >: >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >: >>>> confident >: >>>> independent traveler without putting in >: >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a >confident >: >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to >: >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs to >be, >: >>>> or >: >>>> to be there for that child. Your >: >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could take >: >>>> care >: >>>> of the child, and there could be other >: >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's child >to >: >>>> take >: >>>> >: >>>> training seems very short-sighted to >: >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >: >>>> >: >>>> Best regards, >: >>>> >: >>>> Steve Jacobson >: >>>> >: >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >: >>>> >: >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four >years >: >>>>> ago. >: >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her to >a >: >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >: >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >: >>>>> From: "minh ha" >: >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >: >>>>> >: >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >: >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >: >>>> >: >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep saying >: >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to >: >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >: >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >: >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence skills >: >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend training >: >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >: >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired >over >: >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember growing >: >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >: >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so we >: >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a >stove, >: >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I want >to >: >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to >teach >: >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to essentially >: >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can >gain >: >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in college >: >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >: >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best teacher--I >can >: >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's not >: >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >: >>>>> Minh >: >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >: >>>>>> Hi all, >: >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >: >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand them) >: >>>>>> is >: >>>>> that >: >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in >skills >: >>>>>> that >: >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >: >>>>> classmates. >: >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are >adapted >: >>>>>> for >: >>>>> the >: >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not >always >: >>>>> readily >: >>>>>> available . >: >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills that >: >>>>>> will >: >>>>> help >: >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and >succeed >: >>>>>> in >: >>>>> the >: >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that >enable >: >>>>>> us >: >>>>> to >: >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only >can >: >>>>>> we >: >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that this >: >>>>>> should >: >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >: >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >: >>>>> environments >: >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that >generally >: >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real >world >: >>>>>> in >: >>>>> a >: >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave >you >: >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >: >>>>>> Darian >: >>>>>> >: >>>>>> >: >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >: >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >: >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >: >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >: >>>>>> nabs-l: >: >>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >: >>>> >: >>>>> -- >: >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >dusty >: >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >: >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >: >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >: >>>>> _______________________________________________ >: >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >: >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >: >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >: >>>>> nabs-l: >: >>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >: >>>>> ail.com >: >>>> >: >>>>> _______________________________________________ >: >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >: >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >: >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for >: >>>>> nabs-l: >: >>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >: >>>> >: >>>> >: >>>> >: >>>> >: >>>> _______________________________________________ >: >>>> nabs-l mailing list >: >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >: >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >: >>>> nabs-l: >: >>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >: >>>> >: >>>> >: >>>> >: >>>> _______________________________________________ >: >>>> nabs-l mailing list >: >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >: >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >: >>>> nabs-l: >: >>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >: >> Hi, Misty and all, >: >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me and >: >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado >: >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, but >: >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things >: >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, and >: >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget it. >: >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being >: >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I was >: >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are >: >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but workplaces >: >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk why >I >: >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for >: >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my parents >: >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to refuse >: >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. They >: >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is >: >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and >it's >: >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't possibly >: >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely not >: >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and >because >: >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd >rather >: >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in and >: >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." >: >> Beth >: >> >: >> _______________________________________________ >: >> nabs-l mailing list >: >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >: >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >: >> nabs-l: >: >> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >: > >: > >: > -- >: > Kaiti >: > >: > _______________________________________________ >: > nabs-l mailing list >: > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >: > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >: >: _______________________________________________ >: nabs-l mailing list >: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >: To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 20:37:49 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:37:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> <528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> <528391AF.5040507@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Ian, I do wish there were better ways for students to be prepared in things like that that are really visual. Your trouble with calculus is sort of similar to what I'm working through with a music theory course that involves graphing. I was not taught this in my high school theory course because it is usually not taught at the undergraduate level, and there really isn't a braille system for doing it so braille music does me no good. That, coupled with the fact that I had to step up and teach myself braille music because my TVI refused to teach me in high school, are presenting me with what sounds like a similar problem. I'll make it through, but teaching some of these specialized concepts to blind students, especially once they've identified the career they want to go into and their plans call for such knowledge, is an issue that I feel really needs to be addressed with parents, TVIs, and colleges and universities. On 11/13/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > If only, Tyler... a like button would be nice, but I agree with you. > > I think what happens far too often, that is the source of all these > problems that blind students face, is that they are lazy as Ian said. > I have heard my share of stories from people who say, "Well, I > shouldn't have to do this because it's not fair," or they try to pawn > their responsibilities off on the teacher or some other entity with > the parent going to bat for them, vicariously pulling the blind card. > I am not saying teachers and others do not have certain > responsibilities in the education of blind students, as Ian is right > in that a lot of people do, but the student has responsibilities too. > It is not always fair; I can remember doing much more work and taking > much more time to do it than my sighted classmates, and it is > something I am even dealing with now in one of my music theory classes > in college. What takes some students an hour can take me three or > four, and from what I've seen I seem to have a lot more frustration > with it because it is visual and therefore more difficult for me to > understand, but that's all we can do if we want to succeed. Work > harder, smarter, and be more diligent in our studies and other aspects > of our lives than our typical classmates. That is something we will > face in the real world, and that is why it is the responsibility of > the parents to teach their children this concept at an early age. I > wish all parents would reem their kids for this kind of behavior the > first time they see it---for me it was about 4th grade, and I credit > my parents and my TVI with catching it early and preventing this > attitude to prevail through the rest of my education. It has served > me well. But, I also credit my parents with fighting for me, for > picking up the school's slack at times, and for teaching me all they > could. They made sure I got into music theory classes before college > so I could come in ahead, they made sure I took AP courses so I could > get used to the volume of material that would be covered in a college > course, and they helped me to be prepared to be independent and > function away from home. Were they perfect? By no means no, but they > tried to do the best they could with the things Ian pointed out. > > I think a lot of the responsibility falls on the parents, because they > have to oversee the school following through, as well as the child. > Parents can make all the difference in the world. > > On 11/13/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> Ian: >> Listserves really need a like button. I agree 1000% with this message, >> though I assume those who are "entitled" will just let it whoosh over >> their heads and those who understand your point are already putting a >> lot of this into practice anyway. >> >> On 11/13/2013 9:35 AM, I. C. Bray wrote: >>> To all of whom have posted on this thread. >>> >>> While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness skills, >>> education, and professional careers, there is something we all have in >>> common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I myself have had >>> problems in both Public School, in College, and Adult Blindness Training >>> Centers. >>> Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, and >>> my >>> objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going to indicate >>> which schools I attended. >>> I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school for >>> the >>> Blind". >>> Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind >>> students. >>> Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These >>> institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus, Listening >>> Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an eventual High >>> School >>> equelevant Education. All of this is presumptive that the student is >>> capable of attaining that High School Education. >>> There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic >>> conditions >>> who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of attaining much more >>> for >>> themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years later. >>> I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in my >>> Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to Engineering >>> School with the full support of my math, physics, and myguidance >>> counselors. >>> I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The plain >>> & >>> simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the ability to use >>> alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were useless because I >>> was >>> too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't understand and trying to >>> decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level of Mathematics I did not >>> understand the point of. >>> Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what they >>> are >>> trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND until AFTER >>> YOU >>> ARE FINISHED. >>> For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just >>> because >>> you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision impairment is >>> absurd. >>> The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't or >>> don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what they >>> need, >>> want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous. >>> Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are correct; >>> The >>> education is not up to higher Public Education Standards. Simillarly, >>> Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and Secondary ) are required by >>> Federal >>> Law to provide EVERY student presented to them a suitable Education. At >>> this point, is up to parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's >>> opportunity. Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be >>> successful >>> because parents are not often aware of their options. School Systems >>> take >>> this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money they are already >>> short >>> on toward the specific needs of a substantially small number of >>> students. >>> College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger >>> population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource >>> Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to the >>> importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you are >>> STILL >>> going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, andinsufficient >>> training of instructors. >>> I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time with >>> regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive >>> Curricula" >>> seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to modiffy or >>> enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the actual number of >>> those >>> who actually do. >>> Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it... >>> which >>> usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly. >>> Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The >>> truthful >>> answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's >>> responsibility. >>> >>> When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab. >>> Center, >>> or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for learning >>> the >>> material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often is involved with >>> textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and you ar going to have >>> to >>> utilize whatever protest options available until you are so tired of it >>> that >>> it seems worthless. >>> You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the >>> mired-down >>> attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed that they are >>> illequipped to help you. >>> >>> ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are supposed to >>> help >>> you, and when things go wrong, you seek appointments with Department >>> Heads, >>> University Provosts, and Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go >>> to >>> the Accredidation boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding >>> comes >>> from and you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you save >>> coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you >>> have >>> 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the >>> desire >>> to make lots of money and you get things worked out. >>> Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes there >>> is, >>> but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late. >>> Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. Insist >>> upon >>> having your instructors explain verbally, things that you are not able >>> to >>> see. Remain professional, and polite at all times. Get a friend to >>> take >>> pictures so someone can describe them later. When a professor tells you >>> you >>> are not allowed to record his lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent >>> it. >>> If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by that >>> Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, or >>> Provost. >>> Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to the >>> situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have to be >>> that >>> useless flashlight for the sighted community. >>> Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you think >>> your instructor is. >>> Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee >>> instructors >>> attitudes change. >>> Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a >>> ridiculous >>> notion. You may one day need it. >>> Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age! >>> The >>> more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read ahead in >>> your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you before you hear >>> it. >>> Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, and >>> check >>> it over it until you know it's right. >>> Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask >>> questions!! >>> Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if you >>> are >>> wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested and engaged >>> in >>> your learning that will help you succeed. >>> Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, you >>> are >>> responsible for what happens to you. >>> Cheers, >>> Ian C. Bray >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridget Walker" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> : Hi Katy, >>> : >>> : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a >>> school >>> for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is >>> just >>> what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as a >>> future educator I will never let something like this happen. People >>> always >>> ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some >>> reason >>> they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are >>> blind >>> setting an example in the public school. >>> : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I feel >>> misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their own >>> little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these >>> modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. >>> It's >>> a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my >>> techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as any >>> other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. >>> : >>> : Bridget >>> : >>> : Sent from my iPad >>> : >>> : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> : >>> : > Bridget, >>> : > >>> : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the >>> : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the >>> : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of >>> : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly >>> not >>> : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you >>> : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror >>> stories >>> : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people who >>> : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there >>> : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and >>> now >>> : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because >>> : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I >>> : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed >>> kids >>> : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at >>> least, >>> : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years >>> of >>> : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind >>> : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty >>> : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've >>> : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in >>> : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify >>> : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could >>> : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. >>> : > >>> : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment >>> made >>> : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts >>> : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of >>> their >>> : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is >>> : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be >>> : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant >>> : > descrimination. >>> : > >>> : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>> : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> : >>> Hi all, >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I >>> am >>> : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >>> : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're >>> great >>> : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >>> : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the >>> individual >>> : >>> person. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >>> : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked >>> to, >>> : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my >>> mom >>> : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >>> : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for >>> the >>> : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the >>> choice >>> : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >>> : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a >>> very >>> : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over >>> me >>> : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at >>> the >>> : >>> time. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to >>> the >>> : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on >>> the >>> : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that >>> most >>> : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >>> : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities >>> in >>> : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me >>> back >>> : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >>> : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >>> : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is >>> the >>> : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are >>> capable >>> : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on >>> to >>> : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do >>> not >>> : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, >>> and >>> : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >>> : >>> process. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's >>> ability >>> : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically >>> talk >>> : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which >>> hosted >>> : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out >>> fine >>> : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine >>> participated >>> : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle >>> school >>> : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >>> : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind >>> is >>> : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one >>> of >>> my >>> : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became >>> a >>> : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it >>> down >>> : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the >>> goal. >>> : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >>> : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of >>> our >>> : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who >>> was >>> : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >>> : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand >>> that >>> : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, >>> but >>> : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him >>> better. >>> : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up >>> for >>> : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to >>> do >>> : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama >>> club >>> : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >>> : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations >>> or >>> : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools >>> for >>> : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >>> : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, >>> is >>> : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in >>> the >>> : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, >>> and >>> : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, >>> like >>> : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other >>> subjects >>> : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in >>> cases >>> : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of >>> the >>> : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with >>> a >>> : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >>> : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the >>> solutions >>> : >>> we came up with to work. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot >>> of >>> :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >>> : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to >>> help >>> me >>> : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the >>> claim >>> : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >>> : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step >>> back, >>> : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to >>> learn >>> : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, >>> and >>> I >>> : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I >>> had >>> : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >>> : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through >>> experience >>> : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >>> : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, >>> but >>> : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has >>> ended >>> : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when >>> I >>> : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact >>> that >>> : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >>> : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >>> : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they >>> have >>> : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When >>> those >>> : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and >>> capability >>> to >>> : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >>> : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >>> : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a >>> textbook >>> : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in >>> an >>> : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >>> : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour >>> away >>> : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more >>> self-sufficient, >>> : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, >>> and >>> : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >>> : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I >>> could >>> : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >>> : >>> least. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> Just my thoughts. >>> : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>> : >>>> RJ, >>> : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of >>> whichever >>> : >>>> center >>> : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made >>> for >>> her >>> : >>>> to >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a >>> dormitory >>> : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >>> : >>>> dormitories, >>> : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child >>> to >>> : >>>> stay >>> : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your >>> friend >>> may >>> : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child >>> while >>> she >>> : >>>> is >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the >>> center >>> : >>>> may >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work >>> with >>> her >>> : >>>> on >>> : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training >>> successfully. >>> : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single >>> mother, >>> but >>> : >>>> the >>> : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also >>> help >>> me >>> : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the >>> opportunity >>> to >>> : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to >>> attend >>> : >>>> next >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open >>> to >>> me >>> : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything >>> out >>> so >>> : >>>> I >>> : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to >>> allow >>> : >>>> me >>> : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but >>> your >>> : >>>> friend >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of >>> any >>> of >>> : >>>> the >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work >>> with >>> her >>> : >>>> on >>> : >>>> it. >>> : >>>> Thanks, >>> : >>>> Misty >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> -----Original Message----- >>> : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson >>> : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>> : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> RJ, >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual >>> case >>> : >>>> such >>> : >>>> as that of your friend. In general, >>> : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well >>> might >>> : >>>> mean >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long >>> : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>> : >>>> confident >>> : >>>> independent traveler without putting in >>> : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a >>> confident >>> : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>> : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs >>> to >>> be, >>> : >>>> or >>> : >>>> to be there for that child. Your >>> : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could >>> take >>> : >>>> care >>> : >>>> of the child, and there could be other >>> : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's >>> child >>> to >>> : >>>> take >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to >>> : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> Best regards, >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> Steve Jacobson >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four >>> years >>> : >>>>> ago. >>> : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send >>> her >>> to >>> a >>> : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>> : >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> : >>>>> From: "minh ha" >>> : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> : >>>>> >>> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>> : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>> saying >>> : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they >>> need >>> to >>> : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how >>> these >>> : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>> : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence >>> skills >>> : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend >>> training >>> : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for >>> the >>> : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've >>> acquired >>> over >>> : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember >>> growing >>> : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>> : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so >>> we >>> : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a >>> stove, >>> : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I >>> want >>> to >>> : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to >>> teach >>> : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to >>> essentially >>> : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can >>> gain >>> : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in >>> college >>> : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself >>> to >>> : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best >>> teacher--I >>> can >>> : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's >>> not >>> : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>> : >>>>> Minh >>> : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>> : >>>>>> Hi all, >>> : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>> : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand >>> them) >>> : >>>>>> is >>> : >>>>> that >>> : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in >>> skills >>> : >>>>>> that >>> : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>> : >>>>> classmates. >>> : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are >>> adapted >>> : >>>>>> for >>> : >>>>> the >>> : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not >>> always >>> : >>>>> readily >>> : >>>>>> available . >>> : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills >>> that >>> : >>>>>> will >>> : >>>>> help >>> : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and >>> succeed >>> : >>>>>> in >>> : >>>>> the >>> : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that >>> enable >>> : >>>>>> us >>> : >>>>> to >>> : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not >>> only >>> can >>> : >>>>>> we >>> : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that >>> this >>> : >>>>>> should >>> : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>> : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>> : >>>>> environments >>> : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that >>> generally >>> : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real >>> world >>> : >>>>>> in >>> : >>>>> a >>> : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave >>> you >>> : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>> : >>>>>> Darian >>> : >>>>>> >>> : >>>>>> >>> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> -- >>> : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >>> dusty >>> : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >>> vanity: >>> : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act >>> on >>> : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >>> Lawrence >>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for >>> : >>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> : >>>>> ail.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for >>> : >>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> : >>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> : >>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> : >> Hi, Misty and all, >>> : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me >>> and >>> : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the >>> Colorado >>> : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, >>> but >>> : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the >>> things >>> : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, >>> and >>> : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget >>> it. >>> : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being >>> : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I >>> was >>> : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I >>> are >>> : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but >>> workplaces >>> : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk >>> why >>> I >>> : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for >>> : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my >>> parents >>> : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to >>> refuse >>> : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. >>> They >>> : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is >>> : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and >>> it's >>> : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't >>> possibly >>> : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely >>> not >>> : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and >>> because >>> : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd >>> rather >>> : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in >>> and >>> : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." >>> : >> Beth >>> : >> >>> : >> _______________________________________________ >>> : >> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> : >> nabs-l: >>> : >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> : > >>> : > >>> : > -- >>> : > Kaiti >>> : > >>> : > _______________________________________________ >>> : > nabs-l mailing list >>> : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> : > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>> : >>> : _______________________________________________ >>> : nabs-l mailing list >>> : nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 13 20:42:15 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:42:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? In-Reply-To: References: <9DEC18CF664B4DA58609DA96B63F7F65@MistyBradleyPC> <528243B1.2000700@comcast.net> <528391AF.5040507@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <00c701cee0b0$d6aa6440$83ff2cc0$@gmail.com> I will admit, the calculus and math stopped me in my tracks. I didn't have the natural ability as do some of us, and I wasn't about to struggle through something which would take me that much effort. I admire you folks who can do so however. Big thumb ups for you Kaiti for self-teaching yourself through that course. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kaiti Shelton Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 3:38 PM To: tyler at tysdomain.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? Ian, I do wish there were better ways for students to be prepared in things like that that are really visual. Your trouble with calculus is sort of similar to what I'm working through with a music theory course that involves graphing. I was not taught this in my high school theory course because it is usually not taught at the undergraduate level, and there really isn't a braille system for doing it so braille music does me no good. That, coupled with the fact that I had to step up and teach myself braille music because my TVI refused to teach me in high school, are presenting me with what sounds like a similar problem. I'll make it through, but teaching some of these specialized concepts to blind students, especially once they've identified the career they want to go into and their plans call for such knowledge, is an issue that I feel really needs to be addressed with parents, TVIs, and colleges and universities. On 11/13/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi all, > > If only, Tyler... a like button would be nice, but I agree with you. > > I think what happens far too often, that is the source of all these > problems that blind students face, is that they are lazy as Ian said. > I have heard my share of stories from people who say, "Well, I > shouldn't have to do this because it's not fair," or they try to pawn > their responsibilities off on the teacher or some other entity with > the parent going to bat for them, vicariously pulling the blind card. > I am not saying teachers and others do not have certain > responsibilities in the education of blind students, as Ian is right > in that a lot of people do, but the student has responsibilities too. > It is not always fair; I can remember doing much more work and taking > much more time to do it than my sighted classmates, and it is > something I am even dealing with now in one of my music theory classes > in college. What takes some students an hour can take me three or > four, and from what I've seen I seem to have a lot more frustration > with it because it is visual and therefore more difficult for me to > understand, but that's all we can do if we want to succeed. Work > harder, smarter, and be more diligent in our studies and other aspects > of our lives than our typical classmates. That is something we will > face in the real world, and that is why it is the responsibility of > the parents to teach their children this concept at an early age. I > wish all parents would reem their kids for this kind of behavior the > first time they see it---for me it was about 4th grade, and I credit > my parents and my TVI with catching it early and preventing this > attitude to prevail through the rest of my education. It has served > me well. But, I also credit my parents with fighting for me, for > picking up the school's slack at times, and for teaching me all they > could. They made sure I got into music theory classes before college > so I could come in ahead, they made sure I took AP courses so I could > get used to the volume of material that would be covered in a college > course, and they helped me to be prepared to be independent and > function away from home. Were they perfect? By no means no, but they > tried to do the best they could with the things Ian pointed out. > > I think a lot of the responsibility falls on the parents, because they > have to oversee the school following through, as well as the child. > Parents can make all the difference in the world. > > On 11/13/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> Ian: >> Listserves really need a like button. I agree 1000% with this >> message, though I assume those who are "entitled" will just let it >> whoosh over their heads and those who understand your point are >> already putting a lot of this into practice anyway. >> >> On 11/13/2013 9:35 AM, I. C. Bray wrote: >>> To all of whom have posted on this thread. >>> >>> While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness >>> skills, education, and professional careers, there is something we >>> all have in common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I >>> myself have had problems in both Public School, in College, and >>> Adult Blindness Training Centers. >>> Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, >>> and my objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going >>> to indicate which schools I attended. >>> I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school >>> for the Blind". >>> Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind >>> students. >>> Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These >>> institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus, >>> Listening Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an >>> eventual High School equelevant Education. All of this is >>> presumptive that the student is capable of attaining that High >>> School Education. >>> There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic >>> conditions who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of >>> attaining much more for themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years >>> later. >>> I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in >>> my Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to >>> Engineering School with the full support of my math, physics, and >>> myguidance counselors. >>> I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The >>> plain & simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the >>> ability to use alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were >>> useless because I was too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't >>> understand and trying to decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level >>> of Mathematics I did not understand the point of. >>> Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what >>> they are trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND >>> until AFTER YOU ARE FINISHED. >>> For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just >>> because you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision >>> impairment is absurd. >>> The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't >>> or don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what >>> they need, want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous. >>> Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are >>> correct; The education is not up to higher Public Education >>> Standards. Simillarly, Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and >>> Secondary ) are required by Federal Law to provide EVERY student >>> presented to them a suitable Education. At this point, is up to >>> parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's opportunity. >>> Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be successful >>> because parents are not often aware of their options. School >>> Systems take this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money >>> they are already short on toward the specific needs of a >>> substantially small number of students. >>> College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger >>> population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource >>> Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to >>> the importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you >>> are STILL going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, >>> andinsufficient training of instructors. >>> I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time >>> with regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive >>> Curricula" >>> seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to >>> modiffy or enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the >>> actual number of those who actually do. >>> Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it... >>> which >>> usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly. >>> Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The >>> truthful answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's >>> responsibility. >>> >>> When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab. >>> Center, >>> or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for >>> learning the material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often >>> is involved with textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and >>> you ar going to have to utilize whatever protest options available >>> until you are so tired of it that it seems worthless. >>> You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the >>> mired-down attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed >>> that they are illequipped to help you. >>> >>> ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are >>> supposed to help you, and when things go wrong, you seek >>> appointments with Department Heads, University Provosts, and >>> Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go to the Accredidation >>> boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding comes from and >>> you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you save >>> coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you >>> have >>> 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the >>> desire to make lots of money and you get things worked out. >>> Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes >>> there is, but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late. >>> Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. >>> Insist upon having your instructors explain verbally, things that >>> you are not able to see. Remain professional, and polite at all >>> times. Get a friend to take pictures so someone can describe them >>> later. When a professor tells you you are not allowed to record his >>> lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent it. >>> If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by >>> that Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, >>> or Provost. >>> Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to >>> the situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have >>> to be that useless flashlight for the sighted community. >>> Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you >>> think your instructor is. >>> Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee >>> instructors attitudes change. >>> Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a >>> ridiculous notion. You may one day need it. >>> Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age! >>> The >>> more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read >>> ahead in your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you >>> before you hear it. >>> Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, >>> and check it over it until you know it's right. >>> Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask >>> questions!! >>> Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if >>> you are wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested >>> and engaged in your learning that will help you succeed. >>> Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, >>> you are responsible for what happens to you. >>> Cheers, >>> Ian C. Bray >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridget Walker" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> : Hi Katy, >>> : >>> : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to >>> a school for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum >>> but that is just what happened to me. Do I know it's down right >>> illegal? Absolutely, as a future educator I will never let something >>> like this happen. People always ask me if I would teach at a school >>> for the blind because for some reason they think its easier. I >>> always say no. We need more teachers who are blind setting an >>> example in the public school. >>> : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I >>> feel misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in >>> their own little world. A person without sleight can't function >>> without all these modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. >>> It's >>> a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my >>> techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as >>> any other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. >>> : >>> : Bridget >>> : >>> : Sent from my iPad >>> : >>> : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> : >>> : > Bridget, >>> : > >>> : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for >>> the >>> : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across >>> the >>> : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. >>> Of >>> : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are >>> certainly not >>> : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like >>> you >>> : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror >>> stories >>> : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people >>> who >>> : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in >>> there >>> : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, >>> and now >>> : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid >>> because >>> : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very >>> low. I >>> : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed >>> kids >>> : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at >>> least, >>> : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two >>> years of >>> : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind >>> : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know >>> plenty >>> : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because >>> they've >>> : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be >>> in >>> : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to >>> qualify >>> : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I >>> could >>> : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. >>> : > >>> : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her >>> comment made >>> : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school >>> districts >>> : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of >>> their >>> : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is >>> : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should >>> be >>> : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant >>> : > descrimination. >>> : > >>> : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>> : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> : >>> Hi all, >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, >>> as I am >>> : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what >>> my >>> : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're >>> great >>> : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in >>> that >>> : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the >>> individual >>> : >>> person. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >>> : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've >>> talked to, >>> : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat >>> my mom >>> : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do >>> my >>> : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School >>> for the >>> : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get >>> the choice >>> : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom >>> also >>> : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me >>> at a very >>> : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial >>> over me >>> : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do >>> at the >>> : >>> time. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me >>> to the >>> : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they >>> consulted on the >>> : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression >>> that most >>> : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a >>> much >>> : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple >>> disabilities in >>> : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me >>> back >>> : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >>> : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system >>> from >>> : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this >>> is the >>> : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are >>> capable >>> : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and >>> going on to >>> : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids >>> do not >>> : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the >>> blind, and >>> : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in >>> the >>> : >>> process. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's >>> ability >>> : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you >>> specifically talk >>> : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which >>> hosted >>> : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out >>> fine >>> : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine >>> participated >>> : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle >>> school >>> : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >>> : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the >>> blind is >>> : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; >>> one of my >>> : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we >>> became a >>> : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it >>> down >>> : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the >>> goal. >>> : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >>> : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the >>> design of our >>> : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team >>> who was >>> : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what >>> I >>> : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to >>> understand that >>> : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help >>> it, but >>> : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him >>> better. >>> : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set >>> up for >>> : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found >>> activities to do >>> : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the >>> drama club >>> : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching >>> band >>> : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect >>> adaptations or >>> : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the >>> schools for >>> : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and >>> error >>> : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted >>> classmates, is >>> : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things >>> in the >>> : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in >>> braille, and >>> : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, >>> like >>> : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other >>> subjects >>> : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well >>> in cases >>> : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy >>> of the >>> : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up >>> with a >>> : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge >>> is a >>> : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the >>> solutions >>> : >>> we came up with to work. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a >>> lot of :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it >>> for me, and >>> : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to >>> help me >>> : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with >>> the claim >>> : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as >>> I >>> : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should >>> step back, >>> : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to >>> learn >>> : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with >>> cooking, and I >>> : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. >>> Have I had >>> : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer >>> because I >>> : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through >>> experience >>> : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our >>> own >>> : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me >>> before, but >>> : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has >>> ended >>> : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so >>> when I >>> : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the >>> fact that >>> : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I >>> wanted, >>> : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents >>> will >>> : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes >>> they have >>> : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When >>> those >>> : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and >>> capability to >>> : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >>> : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public >>> school, >>> : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a >>> textbook >>> : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out >>> in an >>> : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >>> : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an >>> hour away >>> : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more >>> self-sufficient, >>> : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, >>> problem-solve, and >>> : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at >>> the >>> : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. >>> I could >>> : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school >>> at >>> : >>> least. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> Just my thoughts. >>> : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>> : >>>> RJ, >>> : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of >>> whichever >>> : >>>> center >>> : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be >>> made for her >>> : >>>> to >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a >>> dormitory >>> : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >>> : >>>> dormitories, >>> : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their >>> child to >>> : >>>> stay >>> : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your >>> friend may >>> : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the >>> child while she >>> : >>>> is >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of >>> the center >>> : >>>> may >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or >>> work with her >>> : >>>> on >>> : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training >>> successfully. >>> : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single >>> mother, but >>> : >>>> the >>> : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and >>> also help me >>> : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the >>> opportunity to >>> : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning >>> to attend >>> : >>>> next >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very >>> open to me >>> : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work >>> everything out so >>> : >>>> I >>> : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my >>> state to allow >>> : >>>> me >>> : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, >>> but your >>> : >>>> friend >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the >>> directors of any of >>> : >>>> the >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work >>> with her >>> : >>>> on >>> : >>>> it. >>> : >>>> Thanks, >>> : >>>> Misty >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> -----Original Message----- >>> : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson >>> : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>> : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> RJ, >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an >>> individual case >>> : >>>> such >>> : >>>> as that of your friend. In general, >>> : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills >>> well might >>> : >>>> mean >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long >>> : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to >>> become a >>> : >>>> confident >>> : >>>> independent traveler without putting in >>> : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a >>> confident >>> : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>> : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child >>> needs to be, >>> : >>>> or >>> : >>>> to be there for that child. Your >>> : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who >>> could take >>> : >>>> care >>> : >>>> of the child, and there could be other >>> : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave >>> one's child to >>> : >>>> take >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to >>> : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> Best regards, >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> Steve Jacobson >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind >>> four years >>> : >>>>> ago. >>> : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to >>> send her to a >>> : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>> : >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> : >>>>> From: "minh ha" >>> : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> : >>>>> >>> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>> : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise >>> keep saying >>> : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they >>> need to >>> : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how >>> these >>> : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates >>> gain >>> : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found >>> independence skills >>> : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend >>> training >>> : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision >>> for the >>> : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've >>> acquired over >>> : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember >>> growing >>> : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend >>> and I >>> : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either >>> so we >>> : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use >>> a stove, >>> : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if >>> I want to >>> : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows >>> it to teach >>> : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to >>> essentially >>> : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I >>> can gain >>> : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in >>> college >>> : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present >>> myself to >>> : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best >>> teacher--I can >>> : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but >>> it's not >>> : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>> : >>>>> Minh >>> : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>> : >>>>>> Hi all, >>> : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>> : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand >>> them) >>> : >>>>>> is >>> : >>>>> that >>> : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction >>> in skills >>> : >>>>>> that >>> : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as >>> their >>> : >>>>> classmates. >>> : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that >>> are adapted >>> : >>>>>> for >>> : >>>>> the >>> : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are >>> not always >>> : >>>>> readily >>> : >>>>>> available . >>> : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills >>> that >>> : >>>>>> will >>> : >>>>> help >>> : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and >>> succeed >>> : >>>>>> in >>> : >>>>> the >>> : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills >>> that enable >>> : >>>>>> us >>> : >>>>> to >>> : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not >>> only >>> can >>> : >>>>>> we >>> : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but >>> that this >>> : >>>>>> should >>> : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>> : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such >>> learning >>> : >>>>> environments >>> : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that >>> generally >>> : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that >>> real world >>> : >>>>>> in >>> : >>>>> a >>> : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might >>> leave you >>> : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>> : >>>>>> Darian >>> : >>>>>> >>> : >>>>>> >>> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>> account info for >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gma >>> il.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> -- >>> : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in >>> the dusty >>> : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >>> vanity: >>> : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may >>> act on >>> : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >>> Lawrence >>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> : >>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksande >>> fur%40gm >>> : >>>>> ail.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> : >>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%4 >>> 0visi.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> : >>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40 >>> gmail.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> : >>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet10 >>> 4%40gmail.com >>> : >> Hi, Misty and all, >>> : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial >>> for me and >>> : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the >>> Colorado >>> : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of >>> us, but >>> : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the >>> things >>> : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was >>> cleaning, and >>> : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, >>> "Forget it. >>> : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m >>> being >>> : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already >>> knew I was >>> : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and >>> I are >>> : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but >>> workplaces >>> : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so >>> Idk why I >>> : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook >>> for >>> : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my >>> parents >>> : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to >>> refuse >>> : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. >>> They >>> : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl >>> is >>> : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, >>> and it's >>> : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't >>> possibly >>> : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's >>> definitely not >>> : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, >>> and because >>> : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and >>> I'd rather >>> : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk >>> in and >>> : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." >>> : >> Beth >>> : >> >>> : >> _______________________________________________ >>> : >> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> : >> nabs-l: >>> : >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet10 >>> 4%40gmail.com >>> : > >>> : > >>> : > -- >>> : > Kaiti >>> : > >>> : > _______________________________________________ >>> : > nabs-l mailing list >>> : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> : > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13 >>> %40aol.com >>> : >>> : _______________________________________________ >>> : nabs-l mailing list >>> : nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> : >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.n >>> et >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomai >>> n.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >> he that dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104 >> %40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > -- Kaiti _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Wed Nov 13 22:46:32 2013 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 16:46:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It is often difficult to know when something that isn't fair should be challenged or not. The fact is that having a disability isn't fair. Even without a disability, the abilities dealt to each of us are not equally useful. Life just isn't equally fair to everyone. What needs to be kept in mind is that when one is done with school and is looking for a job, some things are different. In some sectors, ADA and other regulations apply fairly well, but in some job situations, there might be little guarantee of reasonable accommodations. While an employer can be flexible, I know of nothing in the law that requires an employer to give one extra time on a project as can be granted on tests, for example. The expectation is going to be that if one needs more time, one will either make it up in other ways or put in some extra time. Many professional jobs do not pay overtime, and even if one could get paid for working extra, that means that one costs their employer extra because of one's blindness. For this reason, it is a good idea to learn how to deal with less than ideal situations while one is in school, including time pressures. Certainly there are going to be times when something occurs that needs to be challenged, but Learning to work with a reader to deal with a short unit that requires you to use software that is not accessible rather than spending huge amounts of time trying to make the software accessible may be a good investment since you sometimes have to do that. I just think it is very important to realize that some of what one experiences as a student is, to some degree, not the real world, and choosing on some occasions to learn how to deal with an unfair practice might serve one well in the future. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >Hi all, >If only, Tyler... a like button would be nice, but I agree with you. >I think what happens far too often, that is the source of all these >problems that blind students face, is that they are lazy as Ian said. >I have heard my share of stories from people who say, "Well, I >shouldn't have to do this because it's not fair," or they try to pawn >their responsibilities off on the teacher or some other entity with >the parent going to bat for them, vicariously pulling the blind card. >I am not saying teachers and others do not have certain >responsibilities in the education of blind students, as Ian is right >in that a lot of people do, but the student has responsibilities too. >It is not always fair; I can remember doing much more work and taking >much more time to do it than my sighted classmates, and it is >something I am even dealing with now in one of my music theory classes >in college. What takes some students an hour can take me three or >four, and from what I've seen I seem to have a lot more frustration >with it because it is visual and therefore more difficult for me to >understand, but that's all we can do if we want to succeed. Work >harder, smarter, and be more diligent in our studies and other aspects >of our lives than our typical classmates. That is something we will >face in the real world, and that is why it is the responsibility of >the parents to teach their children this concept at an early age. I >wish all parents would reem their kids for this kind of behavior the >first time they see it---for me it was about 4th grade, and I credit >my parents and my TVI with catching it early and preventing this >attitude to prevail through the rest of my education. It has served >me well. But, I also credit my parents with fighting for me, for >picking up the school's slack at times, and for teaching me all they >could. They made sure I got into music theory classes before college >so I could come in ahead, they made sure I took AP courses so I could >get used to the volume of material that would be covered in a college >course, and they helped me to be prepared to be independent and >function away from home. Were they perfect? By no means no, but they >tried to do the best they could with the things Ian pointed out. >I think a lot of the responsibility falls on the parents, because they >have to oversee the school following through, as well as the child. >Parents can make all the difference in the world. >On 11/13/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> Ian: >> Listserves really need a like button. I agree 1000% with this message, >> though I assume those who are "entitled" will just let it whoosh over >> their heads and those who understand your point are already putting a >> lot of this into practice anyway. >> >> On 11/13/2013 9:35 AM, I. C. Bray wrote: >>> To all of whom have posted on this thread. >>> >>> While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness skills, >>> education, and professional careers, there is something we all have in >>> common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I myself have had >>> problems in both Public School, in College, and Adult Blindness Training >>> Centers. >>> Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, and >>> my >>> objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going to indicate >>> which schools I attended. >>> I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school for >>> the >>> Blind". >>> Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind >>> students. >>> Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These >>> institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus, Listening >>> Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an eventual High >>> School >>> equelevant Education. All of this is presumptive that the student is >>> capable of attaining that High School Education. >>> There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic >>> conditions >>> who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of attaining much more >>> for >>> themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years later. >>> I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in my >>> Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to Engineering >>> School with the full support of my math, physics, and myguidance >>> counselors. >>> I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The plain & >>> simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the ability to use >>> alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were useless because I >>> was >>> too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't understand and trying to >>> decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level of Mathematics I did not >>> understand the point of. >>> Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what they are >>> trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND until AFTER YOU >>> ARE FINISHED. >>> For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just >>> because >>> you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision impairment is >>> absurd. >>> The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't or >>> don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what they need, >>> want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous. >>> Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are correct; >>> The >>> education is not up to higher Public Education Standards. Simillarly, >>> Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and Secondary ) are required by >>> Federal >>> Law to provide EVERY student presented to them a suitable Education. At >>> this point, is up to parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's >>> opportunity. Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be >>> successful >>> because parents are not often aware of their options. School Systems >>> take >>> this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money they are already >>> short >>> on toward the specific needs of a substantially small number of students. >>> College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger >>> population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource >>> Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to the >>> importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you are >>> STILL >>> going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, andinsufficient >>> training of instructors. >>> I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time with >>> regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive >>> Curricula" >>> seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to modiffy or >>> enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the actual number of >>> those >>> who actually do. >>> Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it... >>> which >>> usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly. >>> Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The truthful >>> answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's >>> responsibility. >>> >>> When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab. >>> Center, >>> or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for learning the >>> material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often is involved with >>> textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and you ar going to have >>> to >>> utilize whatever protest options available until you are so tired of it >>> that >>> it seems worthless. >>> You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the mired-down >>> attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed that they are >>> illequipped to help you. >>> >>> ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are supposed to >>> help >>> you, and when things go wrong, you seek appointments with Department >>> Heads, >>> University Provosts, and Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go to >>> the Accredidation boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding >>> comes >>> from and you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you save >>> coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you >>> have >>> 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the >>> desire >>> to make lots of money and you get things worked out. >>> Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes there >>> is, >>> but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late. >>> Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. Insist >>> upon >>> having your instructors explain verbally, things that you are not able to >>> see. Remain professional, and polite at all times. Get a friend to take >>> pictures so someone can describe them later. When a professor tells you >>> you >>> are not allowed to record his lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent >>> it. >>> If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by that >>> Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, or Provost. >>> Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to the >>> situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have to be that >>> useless flashlight for the sighted community. >>> Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you think >>> your instructor is. >>> Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee >>> instructors >>> attitudes change. >>> Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a >>> ridiculous >>> notion. You may one day need it. >>> Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age! >>> The >>> more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read ahead in >>> your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you before you hear >>> it. >>> Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, and >>> check >>> it over it until you know it's right. >>> Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask >>> questions!! >>> Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if you are >>> wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested and engaged >>> in >>> your learning that will help you succeed. >>> Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, you are >>> responsible for what happens to you. >>> Cheers, >>> Ian C. Bray >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bridget Walker" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> >>> >>> : Hi Katy, >>> : >>> : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a >>> school >>> for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is >>> just >>> what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as a >>> future educator I will never let something like this happen. People >>> always >>> ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some reason >>> they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are >>> blind >>> setting an example in the public school. >>> : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I feel >>> misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their own >>> little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these >>> modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. >>> It's >>> a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my >>> techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as any >>> other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. >>> : >>> : Bridget >>> : >>> : Sent from my iPad >>> : >>> : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>> >>> wrote: >>> : >>> : > Bridget, >>> : > >>> : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the >>> : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the >>> : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of >>> : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly not >>> : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you >>> : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror >>> stories >>> : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people who >>> : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there >>> : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and >>> now >>> : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because >>> : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. I >>> : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed kids >>> : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at >>> least, >>> : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years >>> of >>> : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind >>> : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know plenty >>> : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've >>> : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in >>> : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to qualify >>> : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I could >>> : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. >>> : > >>> : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment >>> made >>> : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts >>> : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of their >>> : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is >>> : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be >>> : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant >>> : > descrimination. >>> : > >>> : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>> : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>> : >>> Hi all, >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I >>> am >>> : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >>> : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're great >>> : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in that >>> : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the >>> individual >>> : >>> person. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >>> : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've talked >>> to, >>> : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my mom >>> : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >>> : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for >>> the >>> : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the >>> choice >>> : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >>> : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a >>> very >>> : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial over >>> me >>> : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at >>> the >>> : >>> time. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to the >>> : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted on >>> the >>> : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that >>> most >>> : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >>> : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities >>> in >>> : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me back >>> : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >>> : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >>> : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is >>> the >>> : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are >>> capable >>> : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going on >>> to >>> : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do >>> not >>> : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, >>> and >>> : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in the >>> : >>> process. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's >>> ability >>> : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically >>> talk >>> : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which >>> hosted >>> : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out fine >>> : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine >>> participated >>> : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle school >>> : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >>> : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind is >>> : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one of >>> my >>> : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became a >>> : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it down >>> : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the goal. >>> : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >>> : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design of >>> our >>> : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who >>> was >>> : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >>> : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand >>> that >>> : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, >>> but >>> : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him >>> better. >>> : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up >>> for >>> : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities to >>> do >>> : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama >>> club >>> : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >>> : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations or >>> : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools >>> for >>> : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >>> : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted classmates, >>> is >>> : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in the >>> : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, >>> and >>> : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, like >>> : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other >>> subjects >>> : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in >>> cases >>> : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of >>> the >>> : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with a >>> : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >>> : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the >>> solutions >>> : >>> we came up with to work. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot of >>> :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, and >>> : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to help >>> me >>> : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the >>> claim >>> : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >>> : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step >>> back, >>> : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to >>> learn >>> : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, and >>> I >>> : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have I >>> had >>> : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because I >>> : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through >>> experience >>> : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >>> : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me before, >>> but >>> : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has >>> ended >>> : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so when >>> I >>> : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact >>> that >>> : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I wanted, >>> : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >>> : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they >>> have >>> : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When those >>> : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and capability >>> to >>> : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >>> : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >>> : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a >>> textbook >>> : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in an >>> : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >>> : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour >>> away >>> : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more >>> self-sufficient, >>> : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, and >>> : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >>> : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I >>> could >>> : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >>> : >>> least. >>> : >>> >>> : >>> Just my thoughts. >>> : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>> : >>>> RJ, >>> : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of whichever >>> : >>>> center >>> : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be made >>> for >>> her >>> : >>>> to >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a >>> dormitory >>> : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >>> : >>>> dormitories, >>> : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their child >>> to >>> : >>>> stay >>> : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your >>> friend >>> may >>> : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child >>> while >>> she >>> : >>>> is >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the >>> center >>> : >>>> may >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work >>> with >>> her >>> : >>>> on >>> : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training >>> successfully. >>> : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single mother, >>> but >>> : >>>> the >>> : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also >>> help >>> me >>> : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the >>> opportunity >>> to >>> : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to >>> attend >>> : >>>> next >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open >>> to >>> me >>> : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work everything >>> out >>> so >>> : >>>> I >>> : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state to >>> allow >>> : >>>> me >>> : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but >>> your >>> : >>>> friend >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors of >>> any >>> of >>> : >>>> the >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work with >>> her >>> : >>>> on >>> : >>>> it. >>> : >>>> Thanks, >>> : >>>> Misty >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> -----Original Message----- >>> : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson >>> : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>> : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> RJ, >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual >>> case >>> : >>>> such >>> : >>>> as that of your friend. In general, >>> : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills well >>> might >>> : >>>> mean >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long >>> : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>> : >>>> confident >>> : >>>> independent traveler without putting in >>> : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a >>> confident >>> : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>> : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs >>> to >>> be, >>> : >>>> or >>> : >>>> to be there for that child. Your >>> : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could >>> take >>> : >>>> care >>> : >>>> of the child, and there could be other >>> : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's >>> child >>> to >>> : >>>> take >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to >>> : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> Best regards, >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> Steve Jacobson >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind four >>> years >>> : >>>>> ago. >>> : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send her >>> to >>> a >>> : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>> : >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> : >>>>> From: "minh ha" >>> : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> : >>>>> >>> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>> : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>> saying >>> : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need >>> to >>> : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these >>> : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>> : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence >>> skills >>> : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend >>> training >>> : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for the >>> : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've acquired >>> over >>> : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember >>> growing >>> : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>> : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so >>> we >>> : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a >>> stove, >>> : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I >>> want >>> to >>> : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it to >>> teach >>> : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to >>> essentially >>> : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I can >>> gain >>> : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in >>> college >>> : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself to >>> : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best >>> teacher--I >>> can >>> : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's >>> not >>> : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>> : >>>>> Minh >>> : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>> : >>>>>> Hi all, >>> : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>> : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand >>> them) >>> : >>>>>> is >>> : >>>>> that >>> : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in >>> skills >>> : >>>>>> that >>> : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as their >>> : >>>>> classmates. >>> : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are >>> adapted >>> : >>>>>> for >>> : >>>>> the >>> : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not >>> always >>> : >>>>> readily >>> : >>>>>> available . >>> : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills >>> that >>> : >>>>>> will >>> : >>>>> help >>> : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and >>> succeed >>> : >>>>>> in >>> : >>>>> the >>> : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that >>> enable >>> : >>>>>> us >>> : >>>>> to >>> : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not only >>> can >>> : >>>>>> we >>> : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that >>> this >>> : >>>>>> should >>> : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>> : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>> : >>>>> environments >>> : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that >>> generally >>> : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that real >>> world >>> : >>>>>> in >>> : >>>>> a >>> : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might leave >>> you >>> : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>> : >>>>>> Darian >>> : >>>>>> >>> : >>>>>> >>> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info >>> for >>> : >>>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> -- >>> : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >>> dusty >>> : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >>> vanity: >>> : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act >>> on >>> : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >>> Lawrence >>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> : >>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>> : >>>>> ail.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> : >>>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> : >>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> >>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> : >>>> nabs-l: >>> : >>>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> : >> Hi, Misty and all, >>> : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for me >>> and >>> : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the Colorado >>> : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, >>> but >>> : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the things >>> : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, >>> and >>> : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget >>> it. >>> : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m being >>> : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew I >>> was >>> : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I are >>> : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but >>> workplaces >>> : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk >>> why >>> I >>> : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for >>> : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my >>> parents >>> : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to >>> refuse >>> : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. >>> They >>> : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is >>> : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, and >>> it's >>> : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't >>> possibly >>> : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's definitely >>> not >>> : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and >>> because >>> : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd >>> rather >>> : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in >>> and >>> : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." >>> : >> Beth >>> : >> >>> : >> _______________________________________________ >>> : >> nabs-l mailing list >>> : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> : >> nabs-l: >>> : >> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> : > >>> : > >>> : > -- >>> : > Kaiti >>> : > >>> : > _______________________________________________ >>> : > nabs-l mailing list >>> : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> : > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>> : >>> : _______________________________________________ >>> : nabs-l mailing list >>> : nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >-- >Kaiti >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 00:49:43 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 17:49:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I have never really paid much mind to how the amount of time or effort I spend on things compares with my sighted classmates and colleagues. I don't think such comparisons are useful. Everyone has their own set of strengths and challenges, abilities and disabilities. Maybe it takes me longer to do math because of accessibility limitations, but I can probably do it faster and better than someone with less math aptitude or training. There are some Internet-related tasks that take me longer than my sighted husband because JAWS gets stalled. However, there are times when I've read through an article usingJAWS faster than he has in print. Sighted people vary greatly in how much effort they require to master a new concept or complete a project. It's just not productive to try to compare ourselves with some figure that's supposed to represent all sighted people. I've never given much thought to the amount of time I spend on work, as long as I have a way to get it done. Now if something is set up so that it's completely inaccessible--not just inconvenient but actually impossible to use--then that's something we should be fighting against. But if the system is accessible, or if there is an accessible work-around such as a reader, then I think we need to hold ourselves to the same productivity standards that others are held to in our chosen educational or career field. Best, Arielle On 11/13/13, Steve Jacobson wrote: > It is often difficult to know when something that isn't fair should be > challenged or not. The fact is that having > a disability isn't fair. Even without a disability, the abilities dealt to > each of us are not equally useful. > Life just isn't equally fair to everyone. What needs to be kept in mind is > that when one is done with school and > is looking for a job, some things are different. In some sectors, ADA and > other regulations apply fairly well, > but in some job situations, there might be little guarantee of reasonable > accommodations. While an employer can > be flexible, I know of nothing in the law that requires an employer to give > one extra time on a project as can be > granted on tests, for example. The expectation is going to be that if one > needs more time, one will either make > it up in other ways or put in some extra time. Many professional jobs do > not pay overtime, and even if one could > get paid for working extra, that means that one costs their employer extra > because of one's blindness. > > For this reason, it is a good idea to learn how to deal with less than ideal > situations while one is in school, > including time pressures. Certainly there are going to be times when > something occurs that needs to be > challenged, but Learning to work with a reader to deal with a short unit > that requires you to use software that is > not accessible rather than spending huge amounts of time trying to make the > software accessible may be a good > investment since you sometimes have to do that. I just think it is very > important to realize that some of what > one experiences as a student is, to some degree, not the real world, and > choosing on some occasions to learn how > to deal with an unfair practice might serve one well in the future. > > Best regards, > > Steve Jacobson > > On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > >>Hi all, > >>If only, Tyler... a like button would be nice, but I agree with you. > >>I think what happens far too often, that is the source of all these >>problems that blind students face, is that they are lazy as Ian said. >>I have heard my share of stories from people who say, "Well, I >>shouldn't have to do this because it's not fair," or they try to pawn >>their responsibilities off on the teacher or some other entity with >>the parent going to bat for them, vicariously pulling the blind card. >>I am not saying teachers and others do not have certain >>responsibilities in the education of blind students, as Ian is right >>in that a lot of people do, but the student has responsibilities too. >>It is not always fair; I can remember doing much more work and taking >>much more time to do it than my sighted classmates, and it is >>something I am even dealing with now in one of my music theory classes >>in college. What takes some students an hour can take me three or >>four, and from what I've seen I seem to have a lot more frustration >>with it because it is visual and therefore more difficult for me to >>understand, but that's all we can do if we want to succeed. Work >>harder, smarter, and be more diligent in our studies and other aspects >>of our lives than our typical classmates. That is something we will >>face in the real world, and that is why it is the responsibility of >>the parents to teach their children this concept at an early age. I >>wish all parents would reem their kids for this kind of behavior the >>first time they see it---for me it was about 4th grade, and I credit >>my parents and my TVI with catching it early and preventing this >>attitude to prevail through the rest of my education. It has served >>me well. But, I also credit my parents with fighting for me, for >>picking up the school's slack at times, and for teaching me all they >>could. They made sure I got into music theory classes before college >>so I could come in ahead, they made sure I took AP courses so I could >>get used to the volume of material that would be covered in a college >>course, and they helped me to be prepared to be independent and >>function away from home. Were they perfect? By no means no, but they >>tried to do the best they could with the things Ian pointed out. > >>I think a lot of the responsibility falls on the parents, because they >>have to oversee the school following through, as well as the child. >>Parents can make all the difference in the world. > >>On 11/13/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>> Ian: >>> Listserves really need a like button. I agree 1000% with this message, >>> though I assume those who are "entitled" will just let it whoosh over >>> their heads and those who understand your point are already putting a >>> lot of this into practice anyway. >>> >>> On 11/13/2013 9:35 AM, I. C. Bray wrote: >>>> To all of whom have posted on this thread. >>>> >>>> While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness skills, >>>> education, and professional careers, there is something we all have in >>>> common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I myself have >>>> had >>>> problems in both Public School, in College, and Adult Blindness >>>> Training >>>> Centers. >>>> Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, and >>>> my >>>> objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going to >>>> indicate >>>> which schools I attended. >>>> I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school for >>>> the >>>> Blind". >>>> Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind >>>> students. >>>> Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These >>>> institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus, >>>> Listening >>>> Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an eventual High >>>> School >>>> equelevant Education. All of this is presumptive that the student is >>>> capable of attaining that High School Education. >>>> There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic >>>> conditions >>>> who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of attaining much >>>> more >>>> for >>>> themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years later. >>>> I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in my >>>> Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to >>>> Engineering >>>> School with the full support of my math, physics, and myguidance >>>> counselors. >>>> I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The plain >>>> & >>>> simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the ability to use >>>> alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were useless because I >>>> was >>>> too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't understand and trying to >>>> decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level of Mathematics I did not >>>> understand the point of. >>>> Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what they >>>> are >>>> trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND until AFTER >>>> YOU >>>> ARE FINISHED. >>>> For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just >>>> because >>>> you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision impairment is >>>> absurd. >>>> The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't or >>>> don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what they >>>> need, >>>> want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous. >>>> Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are >>>> correct; >>>> The >>>> education is not up to higher Public Education Standards. Simillarly, >>>> Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and Secondary ) are required by >>>> Federal >>>> Law to provide EVERY student presented to them a suitable Education. >>>> At >>>> this point, is up to parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's >>>> opportunity. Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be >>>> successful >>>> because parents are not often aware of their options. School Systems >>>> take >>>> this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money they are already >>>> short >>>> on toward the specific needs of a substantially small number of >>>> students. >>>> College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger >>>> population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource >>>> Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to >>>> the >>>> importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you are >>>> STILL >>>> going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, andinsufficient >>>> training of instructors. >>>> I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time with >>>> regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive >>>> Curricula" >>>> seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to modiffy >>>> or >>>> enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the actual number of >>>> those >>>> who actually do. >>>> Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it... >>>> which >>>> usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly. >>>> Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The >>>> truthful >>>> answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's >>>> responsibility. >>>> >>>> When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab. >>>> Center, >>>> or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for learning >>>> the >>>> material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often is involved >>>> with >>>> textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and you ar going to have >>>> to >>>> utilize whatever protest options available until you are so tired of it >>>> that >>>> it seems worthless. >>>> You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the >>>> mired-down >>>> attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed that they are >>>> illequipped to help you. >>>> >>>> ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are supposed >>>> to >>>> help >>>> you, and when things go wrong, you seek appointments with Department >>>> Heads, >>>> University Provosts, and Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go >>>> to >>>> the Accredidation boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding >>>> comes >>>> from and you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you >>>> save >>>> coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you >>>> have >>>> 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the >>>> desire >>>> to make lots of money and you get things worked out. >>>> Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes there >>>> is, >>>> but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late. >>>> Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. Insist >>>> upon >>>> having your instructors explain verbally, things that you are not able >>>> to >>>> see. Remain professional, and polite at all times. Get a friend to >>>> take >>>> pictures so someone can describe them later. When a professor tells >>>> you >>>> you >>>> are not allowed to record his lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent >>>> it. >>>> If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by that >>>> Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, or >>>> Provost. >>>> Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to >>>> the >>>> situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have to be >>>> that >>>> useless flashlight for the sighted community. >>>> Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you >>>> think >>>> your instructor is. >>>> Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee >>>> instructors >>>> attitudes change. >>>> Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a >>>> ridiculous >>>> notion. You may one day need it. >>>> Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age! >>>> The >>>> more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read ahead >>>> in >>>> your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you before you hear >>>> it. >>>> Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, and >>>> check >>>> it over it until you know it's right. >>>> Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask >>>> questions!! >>>> Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if you >>>> are >>>> wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested and engaged >>>> in >>>> your learning that will help you succeed. >>>> Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, you >>>> are >>>> responsible for what happens to you. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Ian C. Bray >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bridget Walker" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> >>>> >>>> : Hi Katy, >>>> : >>>> : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a >>>> school >>>> for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is >>>> just >>>> what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as >>>> a >>>> future educator I will never let something like this happen. People >>>> always >>>> ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some >>>> reason >>>> they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are >>>> blind >>>> setting an example in the public school. >>>> : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I >>>> feel >>>> misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their >>>> own >>>> little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these >>>> modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations. >>>> It's >>>> a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my >>>> techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as >>>> any >>>> other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same. >>>> : >>>> : Bridget >>>> : >>>> : Sent from my iPad >>>> : >>>> : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> : >>>> : > Bridget, >>>> : > >>>> : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the >>>> : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the >>>> : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of >>>> : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly >>>> not >>>> : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you >>>> : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror >>>> stories >>>> : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people >>>> who >>>> : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there >>>> : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and >>>> now >>>> : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because >>>> : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low. >>>> I >>>> : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed >>>> kids >>>> : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at >>>> least, >>>> : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years >>>> of >>>> : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind >>>> : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know >>>> plenty >>>> : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've >>>> : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in >>>> : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to >>>> qualify >>>> : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I >>>> could >>>> : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college. >>>> : > >>>> : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment >>>> made >>>> : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts >>>> : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of >>>> their >>>> : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is >>>> : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be >>>> : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant >>>> : > descrimination. >>>> : > >>>> : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>>> : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >>>> : >>> Hi all, >>>> : >>> >>>> : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I >>>> am >>>> : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my >>>> : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well. >>>> : >>> >>>> : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're >>>> great >>>> : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in >>>> that >>>> : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the >>>> individual >>>> : >>> person. >>>> : >>> >>>> : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been >>>> : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've >>>> talked >>>> to, >>>> : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my >>>> mom >>>> : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my >>>> : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for >>>> the >>>> : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the >>>> choice >>>> : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also >>>> : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a >>>> very >>>> : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial >>>> over >>>> me >>>> : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at >>>> the >>>> : >>> time. >>>> : >>> >>>> : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to >>>> the >>>> : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted >>>> on >>>> the >>>> : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that >>>> most >>>> : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much >>>> : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities >>>> in >>>> : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me >>>> back >>>> : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local >>>> : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from >>>> : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is >>>> the >>>> : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are >>>> capable >>>> : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going >>>> on >>>> to >>>> : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do >>>> not >>>> : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind, >>>> and >>>> : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in >>>> the >>>> : >>> process. >>>> : >>> >>>> : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's >>>> ability >>>> : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically >>>> talk >>>> : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which >>>> hosted >>>> : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out >>>> fine >>>> : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine >>>> participated >>>> : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle >>>> school >>>> : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these >>>> : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind >>>> is >>>> : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one >>>> of >>>> my >>>> : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became >>>> a >>>> : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it >>>> down >>>> : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the >>>> goal. >>>> : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our >>>> : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design >>>> of >>>> our >>>> : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who >>>> was >>>> : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I >>>> : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand >>>> that >>>> : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it, >>>> but >>>> : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him >>>> better. >>>> : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up >>>> for >>>> : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities >>>> to >>>> do >>>> : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama >>>> club >>>> : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band >>>> : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations >>>> or >>>> : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools >>>> for >>>> : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error >>>> : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted >>>> classmates, >>>> is >>>> : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in >>>> the >>>> : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille, >>>> and >>>> : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on, >>>> like >>>> : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other >>>> subjects >>>> : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in >>>> cases >>>> : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of >>>> the >>>> : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with >>>> a >>>> : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a >>>> : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the >>>> solutions >>>> : >>> we came up with to work. >>>> : >>> >>>> : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot >>>> of >>>> :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me, >>>> and >>>> : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to >>>> help >>>> me >>>> : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the >>>> claim >>>> : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I >>>> : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step >>>> back, >>>> : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to >>>> learn >>>> : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking, >>>> and >>>> I >>>> : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have >>>> I >>>> had >>>> : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because >>>> I >>>> : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through >>>> experience >>>> : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own >>>> : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me >>>> before, >>>> but >>>> : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has >>>> ended >>>> : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so >>>> when >>>> I >>>> : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact >>>> that >>>> : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I >>>> wanted, >>>> : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will >>>> : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they >>>> have >>>> : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When >>>> those >>>> : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and >>>> capability >>>> to >>>> : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because >>>> : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected. >>>> : >>> >>>> : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school, >>>> : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a >>>> textbook >>>> : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in >>>> an >>>> : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and >>>> : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour >>>> away >>>> : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more >>>> self-sufficient, >>>> : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve, >>>> and >>>> : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the >>>> : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I >>>> could >>>> : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at >>>> : >>> least. >>>> : >>> >>>> : >>> Just my thoughts. >>>> : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley wrote: >>>> : >>>> RJ, >>>> : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of >>>> whichever >>>> : >>>> center >>>> : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be >>>> made >>>> for >>>> her >>>> : >>>> to >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a >>>> dormitory >>>> : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of >>>> : >>>> dormitories, >>>> : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their >>>> child >>>> to >>>> : >>>> stay >>>> : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your >>>> friend >>>> may >>>> : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child >>>> while >>>> she >>>> : >>>> is >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the >>>> center >>>> : >>>> may >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work >>>> with >>>> her >>>> : >>>> on >>>> : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training >>>> successfully. >>>> : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single >>>> mother, >>>> but >>>> : >>>> the >>>> : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also >>>> help >>>> me >>>> : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the >>>> opportunity >>>> to >>>> : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to >>>> attend >>>> : >>>> next >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open >>>> to >>>> me >>>> : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work >>>> everything >>>> out >>>> so >>>> : >>>> I >>>> : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state >>>> to >>>> allow >>>> : >>>> me >>>> : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but >>>> your >>>> : >>>> friend >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors >>>> of >>>> any >>>> of >>>> : >>>> the >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work >>>> with >>>> her >>>> : >>>> on >>>> : >>>> it. >>>> : >>>> Thanks, >>>> : >>>> Misty >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson >>>> : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM >>>> : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> RJ, >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual >>>> case >>>> : >>>> such >>>> : >>>> as that of your friend. In general, >>>> : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills >>>> well >>>> might >>>> : >>>> mean >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long >>>> : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a >>>> : >>>> confident >>>> : >>>> independent traveler without putting in >>>> : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a >>>> confident >>>> : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to >>>> : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs >>>> to >>>> be, >>>> : >>>> or >>>> : >>>> to be there for that child. Your >>>> : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could >>>> take >>>> : >>>> care >>>> : >>>> of the child, and there could be other >>>> : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's >>>> child >>>> to >>>> : >>>> take >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to >>>> : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema. >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> Best regards, >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> Steve Jacobson >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote: >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind >>>> four >>>> years >>>> : >>>>> ago. >>>> : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send >>>> her >>>> to >>>> a >>>> : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ >>>> : >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> : >>>>> From: "minh ha" >>>> : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> : >>>>> >>>> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM >>>> : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep >>>> saying >>>> : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they >>>> need >>>> to >>>> : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how >>>> these >>>> : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain >>>> : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence >>>> skills >>>> : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend >>>> training >>>> : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for >>>> the >>>> : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've >>>> acquired >>>> over >>>> : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember >>>> growing >>>> : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I >>>> : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so >>>> we >>>> : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a >>>> stove, >>>> : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I >>>> want >>>> to >>>> : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it >>>> to >>>> teach >>>> : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to >>>> essentially >>>> : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I >>>> can >>>> gain >>>> : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in >>>> college >>>> : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself >>>> to >>>> : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best >>>> teacher--I >>>> can >>>> : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's >>>> not >>>> : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience. >>>> : >>>>> Minh >>>> : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith wrote: >>>> : >>>>>> Hi all, >>>> : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion. >>>> : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand >>>> them) >>>> : >>>>>> is >>>> : >>>>> that >>>> : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in >>>> skills >>>> : >>>>>> that >>>> : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as >>>> their >>>> : >>>>> classmates. >>>> : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are >>>> adapted >>>> : >>>>>> for >>>> : >>>>> the >>>> : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not >>>> always >>>> : >>>>> readily >>>> : >>>>>> available . >>>> : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills >>>> that >>>> : >>>>>> will >>>> : >>>>> help >>>> : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and >>>> succeed >>>> : >>>>>> in >>>> : >>>>> the >>>> : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that >>>> enable >>>> : >>>>>> us >>>> : >>>>> to >>>> : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not >>>> only >>>> can >>>> : >>>>>> we >>>> : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that >>>> this >>>> : >>>>>> should >>>> : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves. >>>> : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning >>>> : >>>>> environments >>>> : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that >>>> generally >>>> : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that >>>> real >>>> world >>>> : >>>>>> in >>>> : >>>>> a >>>> : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might >>>> leave >>>> you >>>> : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do. >>>> : >>>>>> Darian >>>> : >>>>>> >>>> : >>>>>> >>>> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for >>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>> : >>>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>>> -- >>>> : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in >>>> the >>>> dusty >>>> : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was >>>> vanity: >>>> : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act >>>> on >>>> : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. >>>> Lawrence >>>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for >>>> : >>>>> nabs-l: >>>> : >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm >>>> : >>>>> ail.com >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for >>>> : >>>>> nabs-l: >>>> : >>>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for >>>> : >>>> nabs-l: >>>> : >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> >>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for >>>> : >>>> nabs-l: >>>> : >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> : >> Hi, Misty and all, >>>> : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for >>>> me >>>> and >>>> : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the >>>> Colorado >>>> : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us, >>>> but >>>> : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the >>>> things >>>> : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning, >>>> and >>>> : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget >>>> it. >>>> : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m >>>> being >>>> : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew >>>> I >>>> was >>>> : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I >>>> are >>>> : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but >>>> workplaces >>>> : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk >>>> why >>>> I >>>> : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for >>>> : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my >>>> parents >>>> : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to >>>> refuse >>>> : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on. >>>> They >>>> : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is >>>> : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind, >>>> and >>>> it's >>>> : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't >>>> possibly >>>> : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's >>>> definitely >>>> not >>>> : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and >>>> because >>>> : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd >>>> rather >>>> : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in >>>> and >>>> : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough." >>>> : >> Beth >>>> : >> >>>> : >> _______________________________________________ >>>> : >> nabs-l mailing list >>>> : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> : >> nabs-l: >>>> : >> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>>> : > >>>> : > >>>> : > -- >>>> : > Kaiti >>>> : > >>>> : > _______________________________________________ >>>> : > nabs-l mailing list >>>> : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> : > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>>> : >>>> : _______________________________________________ >>>> : nabs-l mailing list >>>> : nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>> that >>> dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >>> > > >>-- >>Kaiti > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 04:05:31 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 21:05:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: <5283C2FE.70000@comcast.net> References: <5283C2FE.70000@comcast.net> Message-ID: Going to an NFB training center is nothing like a free vacation! If you treat the center like a vacation, you usually aren't funded to stay beyond the first few weeks. Arielle On 11/13/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > On 11/12/2013 8:24 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Why do you assume it's the training center and not employers still >> buying into stereotypes and negative perceptions? And the 70% >> unemployment rate always mentioned is a little misleading because this >> number includes children, seniors and those enable to work for health >> reasons. So while the number is still too high, it's not 70%. >> >> I know blind people more than capable, out there trying to find work, >> and many employers won't give them the time of day merely because they >> are blind. This isn't always the case, but in my experience, the >> untrained, under-qualified blind people sitting at home don't want to >> work and are not out looking for employment. So the blind people seeking >> jobs tend to be more than capable of working, but employers don't want >> to hire blind people. This recently happened to my husband because the >> company didn't want to deal with supplying or allowing accomodations. An >> investigation is currently underway with this company now. He's more >> than qualified with his degree, 15 years of work experience and >> currently pursuing a second degree. >> >> And with the current economic situation, many people are sitting at home >> unemployed. For the first time in years, college graduates are back >> living with parents because the jobs just aren't there. >> >> So there's more to this picture than you present. For someone going on >> about living in the real world, you should really consider all the >> variables and present a bigger picture because there's more to this >> story. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 7 >> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:47:31 -0500 >> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world >> Message-ID: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or >> they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but >> the >> proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone >> says >> they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not >> employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers >> who >> sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? >> Apparently >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> > I am also thinking you didn't think of those with psychiatric > illnesses. We are discriminated against so often we don't get jobs as > it is, and 80% of mentally ill women who give birth to children are in > danger of having those kids taken away. Those kids need to be with good > families, but I would prefer it if the judges wouldn't just stereotype > the mentally ill in all one basket. Training centers aren't always > equipped to deal with dual disabilities. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From n.shreyas.reddy at gmail.com Thu Nov 14 04:12:38 2013 From: n.shreyas.reddy at gmail.com (Shreyas N Reddy) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 09:42:38 +0530 Subject: [nabs-l] regarding career help & for bachalors Message-ID: hi all! I am not sure whether can I post to this mailinng list. If its wrong, please inform me members and please forgive moderator. So, as the above line says, I am planning to study abroad and for Economics in US. May I please know about those people who are doing their studies in US and especially in Economics? From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 14 04:37:07 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 23:37:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: References: <5283C2FE.70000@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3564BA1973FE419CAA9BE08865CF6F7B@OwnerPC> Arielle, Right. I'd also say that based on my experience at centers and those people who attended various centers that any center is not a vacation. If you treat it as such and you do not take it seriously, you will be asked or forced to leave. I find RJ's comment that people took a vacation at tax payer's expense insulting. I'd hate to think that this expensive training went to waste. I would hope that no center would put up with such crap. Also, if students treated it like a vacation, then its not the center's fault. It does not invalidate the good work a center does. Just as not all people use their college education and go to class and take it seriously, not all training center students will care either. I saw people at richmond who did not take the program seriously but went through the motions of classes and did enough to get by. However, I'm sure most private centers are stricter, particularly nfb centers. I'm sure if you treated your training as a joke and did not come to classes, you'd be kicked out. Centers, like all institutions, have rules and if violated then you cannot participate in the program. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Going to an NFB training center is nothing like a free vacation! If you treat the center like a vacation, you usually aren't funded to stay beyond the first few weeks. Arielle On 11/13/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > On 11/12/2013 8:24 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Why do you assume it's the training center and not employers still >> buying into stereotypes and negative perceptions? And the 70% >> unemployment rate always mentioned is a little misleading because this >> number includes children, seniors and those enable to work for health >> reasons. So while the number is still too high, it's not 70%. >> >> I know blind people more than capable, out there trying to find work, >> and many employers won't give them the time of day merely because they >> are blind. This isn't always the case, but in my experience, the >> untrained, under-qualified blind people sitting at home don't want to >> work and are not out looking for employment. So the blind people seeking >> jobs tend to be more than capable of working, but employers don't want >> to hire blind people. This recently happened to my husband because the >> company didn't want to deal with supplying or allowing accomodations. An >> investigation is currently underway with this company now. He's more >> than qualified with his degree, 15 years of work experience and >> currently pursuing a second degree. >> >> And with the current economic situation, many people are sitting at home >> unemployed. For the first time in years, college graduates are back >> living with parents because the jobs just aren't there. >> >> So there's more to this picture than you present. For someone going on >> about living in the real world, you should really consider all the >> variables and present a bigger picture because there's more to this >> story. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 7 >> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:47:31 -0500 >> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world >> Message-ID: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or >> they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but >> the >> proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone >> says >> they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not >> employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers >> who >> sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? >> Apparently >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> > I am also thinking you didn't think of those with psychiatric > illnesses. We are discriminated against so often we don't get jobs as > it is, and 80% of mentally ill women who give birth to children are in > danger of having those kids taken away. Those kids need to be with good > families, but I would prefer it if the judges wouldn't just stereotype > the mentally ill in all one basket. Training centers aren't always > equipped to deal with dual disabilities. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 14 08:20:06 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 01:20:06 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] my experiences and my take on the training centers Message-ID: <528487B6.5090901@comcast.net> Darn it. My messages have been coming back as blank, so I'm going to say this: I don't know why a lot of Center graduates don't have jobs, settle here, etc. I've met lots of interesting people who've both had and not had jobs, but I kind of felt left out of some activities, and as far as the "elite" NFB stuff, was really left out. I was not elected to any posts as a student, and so I had to leave conventions altogether, worse yet, I couldn't necessarily find places to live without a huge waiting lists. I finally found an apartment that didn't have a big old waiting list, and here I am, but my parents accuse me of sitting on my back and collecting welfare checks, but that's what I have to do at the moment because the jobs aren't here, but it's worse in my hometown in Florida, where all there is to do is stuff that nobody thinks I'm qualified to do. I'm not interested in engineering and studying something something that I can't or am not interested in doing. My dad being an aerospace engineer is a lucky thing, but I can't and am not interested in working in the only place where the jobs are, the Space Centre. That's all there is in Brevard County Florida, just the Space Centre, nothing else. Restaurants I am not into working at. There just isn't enough resources also for dual disabled people in this old town. But Denver has all the resources and there's plenty more. Arielle and others could testify that there are more support systems and agencies, more people to look up to, and if I want to raise a family, I hope to do so with a network of successful people who can mentor a possible set of kids that I have. My boyfriend Blake, being in Arizona, is suffering the same fate as many center graduates, but he'll be back here soon. In his case, I think he'll be back home again. When Blake and I marry, we hope, and pray like crazy, that one of us gets a job, but Colorado VR is giving me trouble as usual. But if we have kids who are blind, we know that there are successful blind people who can mentor the child(ren) we choose to adopt, and there are advocates out there like the ones who had kids naturally, I won't name names, but I am sure that if I couldn't have kids naturally, adoption as a domestic option would be good. I'm going way off topic here, but it was the Center that gave me all these ideas, and if it weren't for CCB, I probably wouldn't have thought of how to get my life in order. The thing is, the economy is bad, jobs are tough to find, and all I have is something that might pay pennies per hour. I'd like to work for the CCB maybe as an extra tech teacher, maybe as an independent or something, I don't know quite yet what I"m going to do. It doesn't always pan out in RJ's case that Centers aren't the real world, I think CCB is almost like the real world. There's a big difference between no blind people and a host of other successful ones, but I am feeling like a failure in the CCB's eyes because I could not pay my way and get a job. I can't marry because I don't have a job. But because spiritually, I am a Christian, I feel that God will provide that all important thing I might need and jobs are in some cases too fleshly. Take the executioner or some company that makes the chemicals to kill murder suspects who have faced a death penalty trial. Or the abortion clinics. Or perhaps the greedy health insurance company who's hiring agents because they want to steal your money due to preexisting conditions, no longer legal thank goodness. It's amazing how some people get by in those places. Also, don't forget the meat packing industry, which is so dangerous it could mean the difference between disability and even death or life. Those jobs are fleshly and not important, and neither Blake nor I will take those such jobs just to get married. The Center allowed me an internship, but worse yet, I don't think they were able to try a real job setting in Denver, instead I went to Boulder. It was tiring, I had no stable setting in which to live, etc. It was awful. The end result was a job I can't have due to psychiatric illness and some other things I might not know about, and the Center, though they gave me more confidence in some areas, did not give me the confidence in dealing with the illness I fight daily. The NFB centers should be trained in dealing with all mental illnesses such a schizoeffective disorders, bipolar, etc. That means we should be learning all skills if blindness is the primary disability. Ok, I'm off my soapbox now. Beth Taurasi From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 14 20:44:51 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 14:44:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, Yes, but couldn't you have accessed them via online or with Newsline? Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 10:20:16 -0500 From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Bridgit, no it was involving regular print newspapers. From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 00:04:17 2013 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:04:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students Message-ID: Hi, everyone. Do you think tools like the iPad in combination with a bluetooth keyboard and a braille display can actually replace the need for a laptop or mac book for high school and college students? I do not use an iPad and don't have much experience with any of the word processing or powerpoint apps on IOS like Pages and Keynote, so I'm worried my thoughts are bias. I know iPads are good for email, internet and note-taking. Still, I'm thinking that a full laptop with Jaws or a mac book with VO would be at least preferable, if not required, for completing complex items like conducting heavy academic research for a major project or creating and formatting whole papers and presentations. What do you think? Brice From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 00:17:45 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:17:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On days I don't feel like carrying my laptop, I bring just my iPhone and refreshable braille display. I turn off the sound and type in Pages. I definitely feel it works as well as the laptop for classes where I am just reading and typing notes. However, the laptop is better when I have a slideshow to follow or I need to make graphs or charts. So I guess it just depends on the class. Jewel Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 14, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > > Hi, everyone. > > Do you think tools like the iPad in combination with a bluetooth > keyboard and a braille display can actually replace the need for a > laptop or mac book for high school and college students? > > I do not use an iPad and don't have much experience with any of the > word processing or powerpoint apps on IOS like Pages and Keynote, so > I'm worried my thoughts are bias. I know iPads are good for email, > internet and note-taking. Still, I'm thinking that a full laptop with > Jaws or a mac book with VO would be at least preferable, if not > required, for completing complex items like conducting heavy academic > research for a major project or creating and formatting whole papers > and presentations. What do you think? > > Brice > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 00:20:15 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:20:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001701cee198$75930110$60b90330$@gmail.com> If you are low vision and can take advantage of the wider screen, an iPad could make sense. Otherwise it's not a very economical choice, not when the iPhone and iPod Touch can accomplish the same things. Yes, there are iPad specific apps, but these are few between. More to the point, as much as people can claim to be highly productive on an iPad, you cannot write in it the way you can on a Mac or PC. If the sole productivity purpose is e-mail and basic word processing, maybe the students would be fine. Just one guy's opinion, and this coming from a big fan of Apple products. I just gave away my iPad because I found it simpler to reach for my phone or do more sophisticated producing on a notebook.--Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students Hi, everyone. Do you think tools like the iPad in combination with a bluetooth keyboard and a braille display can actually replace the need for a laptop or mac book for high school and college students? I do not use an iPad and don't have much experience with any of the word processing or powerpoint apps on IOS like Pages and Keynote, so I'm worried my thoughts are bias. I know iPads are good for email, internet and note-taking. Still, I'm thinking that a full laptop with Jaws or a mac book with VO would be at least preferable, if not required, for completing complex items like conducting heavy academic research for a major project or creating and formatting whole papers and presentations. What do you think? Brice _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 00:29:45 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:29:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A095D40CA1643AFB3AEBF6394BFC4AC@OwnerPC> Hi Brice, I agree with Joe. Ipads and other ios devices serve a great purpose; its good for internet searching and email. I also heard they do fairly well with word processing. Also they are lighter to carry around. I'd say, have both if affordable. I feel as students we still need a laptop or macbook for the same reasons brought forward. You need to do indepth research and advanced word processing. Its my experience professors also require you to send files in a word compatible format. Computers can still do some stuff a mobile device such as ipad cannot. So, I would say no; a ipad cannot replace a laptop or macbook. It’s a suplement though. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students Hi, everyone. Do you think tools like the iPad in combination with a bluetooth keyboard and a braille display can actually replace the need for a laptop or mac book for high school and college students? I do not use an iPad and don't have much experience with any of the word processing or powerpoint apps on IOS like Pages and Keynote, so I'm worried my thoughts are bias. I know iPads are good for email, internet and note-taking. Still, I'm thinking that a full laptop with Jaws or a mac book with VO would be at least preferable, if not required, for completing complex items like conducting heavy academic research for a major project or creating and formatting whole papers and presentations. What do you think? Brice _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 00:40:32 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:40:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Message-ID: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to hear people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a compelling resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. Think outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as people say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. I'm not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything you find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed me off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, because if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a job when you kick the bucket. Joe From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Nov 15 00:43:35 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:43:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students In-Reply-To: <001701cee198$75930110$60b90330$@gmail.com> References: <001701cee198$75930110$60b90330$@gmail.com> Message-ID: For low vision we want real estate so 17 inch macbook. Using just my ipad would drive me crazy. I would never be able to do any substantial work on it even reading. The more characters you see when reading the faster you can read. Not to mention dont' have to slide the page back and forth everysingle sentance. On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:20 PM, Joe wrote: > If you are low vision and can take advantage of the wider screen, an iPad > could make sense. Otherwise it's not a very economical choice, not when the > iPhone and iPod Touch can accomplish the same things. Yes, there are iPad > specific apps, but these are few between. More to the point, as much as > people can claim to be highly productive on an iPad, you cannot write in it > the way you can on a Mac or PC. If the sole productivity purpose is e-mail > and basic word processing, maybe the students would be fine. Just one guy's > opinion, and this coming from a big fan of Apple products. I just gave away > my iPad because I found it simpler to reach for my phone or do more > sophisticated producing on a notebook.--Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:04 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students > > Hi, everyone. > > Do you think tools like the iPad in combination with a bluetooth keyboard > and a braille display can actually replace the need for a laptop or mac > book > for high school and college students? > > I do not use an iPad and don't have much experience with any of the word > processing or powerpoint apps on IOS like Pages and Keynote, so I'm worried > my thoughts are bias. I know iPads are good for email, internet and > note-taking. Still, I'm thinking that a full laptop with Jaws or a mac book > with VO would be at least preferable, if not required, for completing > complex items like conducting heavy academic research for a major project > or > creating and formatting whole papers and presentations. What do you think? > > Brice > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 15 00:48:16 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:48:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> I read this message and literally laughed. I'm hopeful you'll get a reality check some day, but until then... Many times there is cause to blame the economy. There are so many people without jobs who are all looking for jobs. There are only so many jobs available for people to fill. Granted this doesn't mean that every time the economy is blamed it is the fault of said economy. there's a difference between holding out for a job that isn't "fleshly," whatever that means, and just taking any job possible. On 11/14/2013 7:40 PM, Joe wrote: > Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to hear > people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out > there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up > your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a compelling > resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. Think > outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as people > say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm > not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. I'm > not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement > according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything you > find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming > life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who > was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed me > off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually > you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, > and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, > blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job > to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, > whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, because > if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a job > when you kick the bucket. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 01:01:31 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:01:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Are you kidding me? The economy is in the dumps right now and no matter how well qualified you are, there just aren't enough jobs to go around for everyone. I volunteer at a nonprofit that helps low-income people look for employment, housing and benefits, etc, and I work with people that have bachelors degrees and Ph.D.'s and they are hanging on by a thread or actually homeless. If perfectly able bodied people can't gain employment, then it's definitely a hundred times harder for us to get a job because of our blindness. When the market is inundated with qualified people looking for a position, who do you think employers are going to look at first, the person with all the qualifications that don't need accommodations or the person with the same qualifications but need extra resources in order to work on a level as everyone else. This is not an excuse for blind people to be lazy and just sit at home and blame it on the economy, but it is a reason why so many of us are unemployed. Minh On 11/14/13, Joe wrote: > Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to hear > people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out > there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up > your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a > compelling > resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. Think > outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as > people > say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm > not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. > I'm > not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement > according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything you > find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming > life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who > was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed > me > off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually > you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, > and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, > blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job > to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, > whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, because > if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a job > when you kick the bucket. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From mistydbradley at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 01:28:44 2013 From: mistydbradley at gmail.com (Misty Dawn Bradley) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:28:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4164E2DB9CAB493883009713763FA1A6@MistyBradleyPC> Brice, I am a college student, and I use both an iPad Mini and a laptop. I use my laptop for my research papers or other writing assignments that require a great deal of formatting using Microsoft Word. I also use it for Powerpoints that my professors create as well as for creating them myself. I also use it for sites in my coursework that require flash or websites that Safari, which is the internet browser on the iPad, will not navigate as well, since most if not all of my classes are online. I use my iPad, however, when I need to go out either to campus or anywhere else where I will have free time to work on school work. I mainly use it to read my textbooks in Learning Ally, since I can read them at home on the iPad or take them with me anywhere on the iPad, and it is easier to carry around than my bulky Dell laptop. I also use the Pages app to take notes if I have a class on campus. I also use it for email, but only when I am out. At home, I use my laptop for email, since I use it as my main computer that I do everything on, since I don't own a desktop. I can also browse some webpages while I am out on the iPad, provided that they work with Safari, which most sites do. I hope this helps, Misty -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 7:04 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students Hi, everyone. Do you think tools like the iPad in combination with a bluetooth keyboard and a braille display can actually replace the need for a laptop or mac book for high school and college students? I do not use an iPad and don't have much experience with any of the word processing or powerpoint apps on IOS like Pages and Keynote, so I'm worried my thoughts are bias. I know iPads are good for email, internet and note-taking. Still, I'm thinking that a full laptop with Jaws or a mac book with VO would be at least preferable, if not required, for completing complex items like conducting heavy academic research for a major project or creating and formatting whole papers and presentations. What do you think? Brice _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 01:32:44 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 18:32:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world References: <5283C2FE.70000@comcast.net> Message-ID: <18B001A03CCC4145A11F4A8FABB6A56B@HP30910210001> Arielle I just have to say amen and right on. I tell people that nfb center programs are what you make them to be. I got out of my program what I needed and wanted and more because I put myself into it. I will say its not a vacation at all. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Going to an NFB training center is nothing like a free vacation! If you treat the center like a vacation, you usually aren't funded to stay beyond the first few weeks. Arielle On 11/13/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > On 11/12/2013 8:24 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Why do you assume it's the training center and not employers still >> buying into stereotypes and negative perceptions? And the 70% >> unemployment rate always mentioned is a little misleading because this >> number includes children, seniors and those enable to work for health >> reasons. So while the number is still too high, it's not 70%. >> >> I know blind people more than capable, out there trying to find work, >> and many employers won't give them the time of day merely because they >> are blind. This isn't always the case, but in my experience, the >> untrained, under-qualified blind people sitting at home don't want to >> work and are not out looking for employment. So the blind people seeking >> jobs tend to be more than capable of working, but employers don't want >> to hire blind people. This recently happened to my husband because the >> company didn't want to deal with supplying or allowing accomodations. An >> investigation is currently underway with this company now. He's more >> than qualified with his degree, 15 years of work experience and >> currently pursuing a second degree. >> >> And with the current economic situation, many people are sitting at home >> unemployed. For the first time in years, college graduates are back >> living with parents because the jobs just aren't there. >> >> So there's more to this picture than you present. For someone going on >> about living in the real world, you should really consider all the >> variables and present a bigger picture because there's more to this >> story. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 7 >> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:47:31 -0500 >> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world >> Message-ID: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or >> they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but >> the >> proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone >> says >> they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not >> employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers >> who >> sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? >> Apparently >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> > I am also thinking you didn't think of those with psychiatric > illnesses. We are discriminated against so often we don't get jobs as > it is, and 80% of mentally ill women who give birth to children are in > danger of having those kids taken away. Those kids need to be with good > families, but I would prefer it if the judges wouldn't just stereotype > the mentally ill in all one basket. Training centers aren't always > equipped to deal with dual disabilities. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 01:35:11 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 18:35:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world References: <5283C2FE.70000@comcast.net> <3564BA1973FE419CAA9BE08865CF6F7B@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <79804BD4B70744C380295535B3D613D7@HP30910210001> I have to say that there are people that come to nfb centers because DvR has a contract with the center. These people also make it sound really good and then they don't take it seriously. I think those people do F off and do it at tax payers expense. But those people are very rare and do not stay in the cetners for long either. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Bramlett" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Arielle, Right. I'd also say that based on my experience at centers and those people who attended various centers that any center is not a vacation. If you treat it as such and you do not take it seriously, you will be asked or forced to leave. I find RJ's comment that people took a vacation at tax payer's expense insulting. I'd hate to think that this expensive training went to waste. I would hope that no center would put up with such crap. Also, if students treated it like a vacation, then its not the center's fault. It does not invalidate the good work a center does. Just as not all people use their college education and go to class and take it seriously, not all training center students will care either. I saw people at richmond who did not take the program seriously but went through the motions of classes and did enough to get by. However, I'm sure most private centers are stricter, particularly nfb centers. I'm sure if you treated your training as a joke and did not come to classes, you'd be kicked out. Centers, like all institutions, have rules and if violated then you cannot participate in the program. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 11:05 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world Going to an NFB training center is nothing like a free vacation! If you treat the center like a vacation, you usually aren't funded to stay beyond the first few weeks. Arielle On 11/13/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > On 11/12/2013 8:24 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Why do you assume it's the training center and not employers still >> buying into stereotypes and negative perceptions? And the 70% >> unemployment rate always mentioned is a little misleading because this >> number includes children, seniors and those enable to work for health >> reasons. So while the number is still too high, it's not 70%. >> >> I know blind people more than capable, out there trying to find work, >> and many employers won't give them the time of day merely because they >> are blind. This isn't always the case, but in my experience, the >> untrained, under-qualified blind people sitting at home don't want to >> work and are not out looking for employment. So the blind people seeking >> jobs tend to be more than capable of working, but employers don't want >> to hire blind people. This recently happened to my husband because the >> company didn't want to deal with supplying or allowing accomodations. An >> investigation is currently underway with this company now. He's more >> than qualified with his degree, 15 years of work experience and >> currently pursuing a second degree. >> >> And with the current economic situation, many people are sitting at home >> unemployed. For the first time in years, college graduates are back >> living with parents because the jobs just aren't there. >> >> So there's more to this picture than you present. For someone going on >> about living in the real world, you should really consider all the >> variables and present a bigger picture because there's more to this >> story. >> >> Bridgit >> Message: 7 >> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:47:31 -0500 >> From: "RJ Sandefur" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not real world >> Message-ID: <005601cedff9$33687ea0$0902a8c0 at S0032244625> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> It's one thing to say the NFB centethey either did not learn anything or >> they just took a free vacation at rehabs expence!rs are top noch, but >> the >> proff is in the pooding. If the JNFB centers are so great like everyone >> says >> they are, then why are we still seeing 74 percent of blind people not >> employed? Why is it that I know some graduates of NFB training centers >> who >> sit on their backsides all day and still live with their parents? >> Apparently >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> > I am also thinking you didn't think of those with psychiatric > illnesses. We are discriminated against so often we don't get jobs as > it is, and 80% of mentally ill women who give birth to children are in > danger of having those kids taken away. Those kids need to be with good > families, but I would prefer it if the judges wouldn't just stereotype > the mentally ill in all one basket. Training centers aren't always > equipped to deal with dual disabilities. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 01:45:59 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 20:45:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Min, Do you live in the US? I thought you lived in an eastern country based on earlier posts. I agree with you. I've also volunteered at a nonprofit and seen very highly qualified people looking for work now. Its not an excuse to give up. But the jobs are in shorter supply and to just dismiss this is very well, shortsighted. We just have to work harder to find unadvertised jobs; network all you can and volunteer because volunteering can turn into a job. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: minh ha Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:01 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Are you kidding me? The economy is in the dumps right now and no matter how well qualified you are, there just aren't enough jobs to go around for everyone. I volunteer at a nonprofit that helps low-income people look for employment, housing and benefits, etc, and I work with people that have bachelors degrees and Ph.D.'s and they are hanging on by a thread or actually homeless. If perfectly able bodied people can't gain employment, then it's definitely a hundred times harder for us to get a job because of our blindness. When the market is inundated with qualified people looking for a position, who do you think employers are going to look at first, the person with all the qualifications that don't need accommodations or the person with the same qualifications but need extra resources in order to work on a level as everyone else. This is not an excuse for blind people to be lazy and just sit at home and blame it on the economy, but it is a reason why so many of us are unemployed. Minh On 11/14/13, Joe wrote: > Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to > hear > people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out > there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up > your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a > compelling > resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. Think > outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as > people > say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm > not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. > I'm > not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement > according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything > you > find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming > life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who > was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed > me > off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually > you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate > ladder, > and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, > blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time > job > to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, > whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, because > if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a > job > when you kick the bucket. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 02:32:18 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 21:32:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> Tyler, I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his income, you can do it better. It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. Ashley, Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed positively. Minh, I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes things significantly worse for us. Joe From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 15 02:53:12 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 21:53:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> Joe: Minh's point was just this: There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see college graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are qualified and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, so are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who they are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can pay lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means it's bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when you can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound like you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh never said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical reasons behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of the most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. It may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did nothing. On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: > Tyler, > > I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's > unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with a > position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business running, > because although government jobs are said to be secure, nothing is > guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still had income to fall > back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six months of savings to > actively seek the next best position. Why? Because I have kept my skills up > to date, because I have kept a fair professional network intact, and because > I understand the ability to create positions for myself through the > consulting capacity that a lot of Americans pursued after the economic > decline several years ago. I say that in hopes people will be angered enough > to try new strategies to find their next job. Remember it's usually the > first one that's the toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily > increase his income, you can do it better. > > It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are jobs > to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one of quantity > without fully looking at quality. The people who get chosen are the ones who > make the cut, and that's true no matter the condition of the economy. The > concern should not be the sheer number of people competing for the jobs you > wish you had. It's what you've been doing to separate yourself from those > numbers. > > Ashley, > > Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During that > year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities and learned a > valuable skill that played a key role in landing my first real job. Anything > you can do to fill your resume is viewed positively. > > Minh, > > I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. > Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we as > blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to people who > need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes no matter what we > do, we will always be viewed as second class citizens when compared to our > sighted peers. An employer is not thinking about the state of the economy > when she is looking to hire someone to fill a role. All she cares about is > finding the right person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to > need accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or > we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes things > significantly worse for us. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 03:16:02 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:16:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> Tyler, An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations if we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a blind person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses associated with creating an accessible working environment. I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living with parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of our generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to job interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the same? I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people are seen in a negative light for having a disability. You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got the job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient card to play when no other arguments hold water. I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always a piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether we are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. Joe -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Joe: Minh's point was just this: There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see college graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are qualified and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, so are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who they are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can pay lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means it's bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when you can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound like you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh never said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical reasons behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of the most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. It may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did nothing. On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: > Tyler, > > I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's > unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with > a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business > running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, > nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still > had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six > months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? > Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair > professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to > create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot > of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I > say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies > to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the > toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his income, you can do it better. > > It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are > jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one > of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get > chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the > condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number > of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've > been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. > > Ashley, > > Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During > that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities > and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my > first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed positively. > > Minh, > > I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. > Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we > as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to > people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes > no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class > citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not > thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire > someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right > person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need > accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or > we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes things significantly worse for us. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 15 03:53:18 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:53:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> Joe: first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment. Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now, which keeps competition up. Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world! On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote: > Tyler, > > An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations if > we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In > fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a blind > person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. > Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses > associated with creating an accessible working environment. > > I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living with > parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of our > generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to job > interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the same? > I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people are > seen in a negative light for having a disability. > > You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got the > job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can > compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient > card to play when no other arguments hold water. > > I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the > economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always a > piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop > hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent > unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether we > are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > Joe: > Minh's point was just this: > > There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see college > graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are qualified > and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, so > are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think > employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who they > are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or > are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can pay > lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they > don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means it's > bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell > out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when you > can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound like > you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh never > said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical reasons > behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the > facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of the > most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. It > may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did > nothing. > On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >> Tyler, >> >> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with >> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business >> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, >> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still >> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six >> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? >> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair >> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to >> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot >> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I >> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies >> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the >> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his income, > you can do it better. >> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are >> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one >> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get >> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the >> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number >> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've >> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. >> >> Ashley, >> >> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During >> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities >> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my >> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed > positively. >> Minh, >> >> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we >> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to >> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes >> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class >> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not >> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire >> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right >> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need >> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or >> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes > things significantly worse for us. >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 15 03:55:34 2013 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:55:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B630124-1EA6-491D-964D-1428101AA87F@yahoo.com> I am in the same situation. My concern with getting an iPads is that I would lose USB, SD, and CD Drives. Also, I think it's more convenient to have one unit instead of an iPad and then a keyboard and any additional attachments. Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Nov 14, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > > Hi, everyone. > > Do you think tools like the iPad in combination with a bluetooth > keyboard and a braille display can actually replace the need for a > laptop or mac book for high school and college students? > > I do not use an iPad and don't have much experience with any of the > word processing or powerpoint apps on IOS like Pages and Keynote, so > I'm worried my thoughts are bias. I know iPads are good for email, > internet and note-taking. Still, I'm thinking that a full laptop with > Jaws or a mac book with VO would be at least preferable, if not > required, for completing complex items like conducting heavy academic > research for a major project or creating and formatting whole papers > and presentations. What do you think? > > Brice > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Fri Nov 15 04:08:22 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:08:22 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Enough withthe jabs thanks. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 14, 2013, at 9:53 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > Joe: > > first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment. > > Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now, which keeps competition up. > > Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world! > >> On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote: >> Tyler, >> >> An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations if >> we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In >> fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a blind >> person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. >> Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses >> associated with creating an accessible working environment. >> >> I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living with >> parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of our >> generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to job >> interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the same? >> I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people are >> seen in a negative light for having a disability. >> >> You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got the >> job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can >> compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient >> card to play when no other arguments hold water. >> >> I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the >> economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always a >> piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop >> hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent >> unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether we >> are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >> >> Joe: >> Minh's point was just this: >> >> There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see college >> graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are qualified >> and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, so >> are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think >> employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who they >> are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or >> are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can pay >> lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they >> don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means it's >> bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell >> out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when you >> can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound like >> you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh never >> said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical reasons >> behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the >> facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of the >> most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. It >> may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did >> nothing. >>> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >>> Tyler, >>> >>> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >>> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with >>> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business >>> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, >>> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still >>> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six >>> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? >>> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair >>> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to >>> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot >>> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I >>> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies >>> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the >>> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his income, >> you can do it better. >>> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are >>> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one >>> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get >>> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the >>> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number >>> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've >>> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. >>> >>> Ashley, >>> >>> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During >>> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities >>> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my >>> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed >> positively. >>> Minh, >>> >>> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >>> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we >>> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to >>> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes >>> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class >>> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not >>> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire >>> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right >>> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need >>> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or >>> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes >> things significantly worse for us. >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>> com >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 04:19:08 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:19:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] iPads and Students In-Reply-To: <7B630124-1EA6-491D-964D-1428101AA87F@yahoo.com> References: <7B630124-1EA6-491D-964D-1428101AA87F@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201cee1b9$d536a290$7fa3e7b0$@gmail.com> You could get a Microsoft Surface, but at their price point you may as well invest in a full notebook. I like Apple a lot, but I would personally not invest in the iPad as a full notetaker or laptop replacement. The level of productivity is not there yet. Apple's own iWork is not accessible with Voiceover. MS Office equivalent is even more dreadful. You could get away with writing in plain text, but the formatting capabilities leave a lot to be desired, because, of course, we're talking about plain text. Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bobbi Pompey Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:56 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] iPads and Students I am in the same situation. My concern with getting an iPads is that I would lose USB, SD, and CD Drives. Also, I think it's more convenient to have one unit instead of an iPad and then a keyboard and any additional attachments. Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Nov 14, 2013, at 7:04 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > > Hi, everyone. > > Do you think tools like the iPad in combination with a bluetooth > keyboard and a braille display can actually replace the need for a > laptop or mac book for high school and college students? > > I do not use an iPad and don't have much experience with any of the > word processing or powerpoint apps on IOS like Pages and Keynote, so > I'm worried my thoughts are bias. I know iPads are good for email, > internet and note-taking. Still, I'm thinking that a full laptop with > Jaws or a mac book with VO would be at least preferable, if not > required, for completing complex items like conducting heavy academic > research for a major project or creating and formatting whole papers > and presentations. What do you think? > > Brice > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo > .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 04:20:21 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 21:20:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hi all, As usual, I believe that both extremes being advocated here are incomplete explanations, and unnecessarily hostile to one another. The best and most accurate position in my view is one midway between them. First of all, Joe makes a good practical point about accommodations. All of us are typing to this list using some kind of screen access software that we presumably either own, or which comes built-in on our computers if we are using Macs. Software we own is transferrable to a work computer at no cost. Even if you received JAWS from rehab, I believe you should still be able to run it on a work computer. At the very least anybody can use JAWS in demo mode for free on a work computer. This allows us to perform many computer jobs without costing the employer a cent. If eventually we need to upgrade, we can then decide whether to buy the upgrade out of pocket or ask the employer for it as an accommodation, but by that point we should have earned enough money from working at the job to be able to have options there. Now if the software required for the job isn't compatible with screen readers, that's a much more complicated issue, but even then there are often free or low-cost work-arounds such as cleverly collaborating with sighted colleagues etc. While some jobs do require accommodations, many don't and many that do only require very inexpensive ones. So we shouldn't go in assuming that we are more expensive to hire than our sighted competitors. I plan to request no accommodations for the professor and researcher jobs I am applying for should I be interviewed. If the employer wants to offer me something, great, but I know all my current technology is transferrable to a new job situation. Of course employers might not see it that way, and we as a group do face a higher rate of discrimination than our sighted colleagues do. I think what Joe is saying is that although we as a group do face disadvantages on average in some fields, we aren't disadvantaged in all fields and not all of us as individuals automatically experience disadvantage. Those of us with good skills and good networking may find ourselves in a better position for our chosen job field than someone sighted who has less skills or less networking. My general philosophy is to do the best I can with what I have and the situation I am in. We all sometimes face circumstances beyond our control that hurt us, such as the economy and negative attitudes among employers. While it is appropriate to acknowledge that barriers exist, it is also appropriate to identify what we can control and make the most of that. I think "blaming" the economy implies more than just acknowledging that it is a problem, but actually giving up power over things we can control such as skill building and taking the initiative to contact employers. I don't think many blind people are actually giving up their power like that and I don't think we should assume that because someone is unemployed it's because they are not trying hard enough. However, I also don't think Joe is painting an unrealistic picture. While there may be a surplus of applicants for some jobs, each one of us only needs to find one job. Not all of us will find jobs right away or the jobs we necessarily want the most, but I think that with creativity and persistence each one of us is capable of attaining that goal. I think the sarcasm and accusation I am seeing on both sides of this argument are misplaced. We are here to build each other up and encourage each other to do the best we can in the situations we are in. Best, Arielle On 11/14/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Joe: > > first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and > opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about > "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college > have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on > raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can > afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment. > > Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not > justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm > just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now, > which keeps competition up. > > Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we > all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives > with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world! > > On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote: >> Tyler, >> >> An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations >> if >> we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In >> fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a >> blind >> person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. >> Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses >> associated with creating an accessible working environment. >> >> I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living >> with >> parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of >> our >> generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to >> job >> interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the >> same? >> I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people >> are >> seen in a negative light for having a disability. >> >> You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got >> the >> job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can >> compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient >> card to play when no other arguments hold water. >> >> I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the >> economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always >> a >> piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop >> hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent >> unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether >> we >> are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >> >> Joe: >> Minh's point was just this: >> >> There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see >> college >> graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are >> qualified >> and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, >> so >> are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think >> employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who >> they >> are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or >> are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can >> pay >> lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they >> don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means >> it's >> bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell >> out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when >> you >> can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound >> like >> you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh >> never >> said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical >> reasons >> behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the >> facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of >> the >> most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. >> It >> may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did >> nothing. >> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >>> Tyler, >>> >>> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >>> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with >>> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business >>> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, >>> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still >>> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six >>> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? >>> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair >>> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to >>> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot >>> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I >>> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies >>> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the >>> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his >>> income, >> you can do it better. >>> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are >>> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one >>> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get >>> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the >>> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number >>> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've >>> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. >>> >>> Ashley, >>> >>> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During >>> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities >>> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my >>> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed >> positively. >>> Minh, >>> >>> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >>> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we >>> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to >>> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes >>> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class >>> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not >>> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire >>> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right >>> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need >>> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or >>> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes >> things significantly worse for us. >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>> com >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 04:32:11 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:32:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ashley, I do live in the U.S.; I was born in Vietnam but I moved here 12 years ago. Joe, Maybe you don’t agree with the part about the economy, but I have had too many personal experiences of being denied opportunities because of my blindness for you to tell me it’s soly because I’m not qualified enough. I graduated high school top of my class with hundreds of community service hours and am currently attending one of the best universities in the country; I have built a solid professional network filled with teachers, professors and leaders who can vouch for my competence and yet I was almost rejected from an internship position from the nonprofit I spoke of earlier. I think it’s quite insulting to those of us who work our asses off and are extremely well qualified for internships and jobs but get rejected for you to say that the reason we get denied is because we don’t sharpen our skills enough. Sure, you could argue that there are other factors involved in the decision making process like maybe the supervisor discriminated against me because I am Asian or female, but I’m not quite that dillusional. I’m all ears though if you would like to explain further how I and other blind students can sharpen our skills in order to make ourselves more qualified than we are now. On 11/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Min, > Do you live in the US? I thought you lived in an eastern country based on > earlier posts. > I agree with you. I've also volunteered at a nonprofit and seen very highly > > qualified people looking for work now. > Its not an excuse to give up. But the jobs are in shorter supply and to just > > dismiss this is very well, shortsighted. > We just have to work harder to find unadvertised jobs; network all you can > and volunteer because volunteering can turn into a job. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: minh ha > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:01 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > Are you kidding me? The economy is in the dumps right now and no > matter how well qualified you are, there just aren't enough jobs to go > around for everyone. I volunteer at a nonprofit that helps low-income > people look for employment, housing and benefits, etc, and I work with > people that have bachelors degrees and Ph.D.'s and they are hanging on > by a thread or actually homeless. If perfectly able bodied people > can't gain employment, then it's definitely a hundred times harder for > us to get a job because of our blindness. When the market is inundated > with qualified people looking for a position, who do you think > employers are going to look at first, the person with all the > qualifications that don't need accommodations or the person with the > same qualifications but need extra resources in order to work on a > level as everyone else. This is not an excuse for blind people to be > lazy and just sit at home and blame it on the economy, but it is a > reason why so many of us are unemployed. > > Minh > On 11/14/13, Joe wrote: >> Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to >> hear >> people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out >> there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up >> your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a >> compelling >> resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. >> Think >> outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as >> people >> say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm >> not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. >> I'm >> not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement >> according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything >> you >> find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming >> life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who >> was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed >> me >> off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. >> Eventually >> you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate >> ladder, >> and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, >> blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time >> job >> to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, >> whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, >> because >> if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a >> job >> when you kick the bucket. >> >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 04:40:29 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:40:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <004401cee1bc$d050a390$70f1eab0$@gmail.com> Tyler, Fronting the expenses should not be as difficult as we would think because most blind college students receive help from rehab agencies to pay for the initial cost of assistive technology. We're left to keep the things up-to-date, and while the update fees are not always small, they are an unfortunate part of being blind and a factor that also remains constant even in the best of economies. After all, having a job does not necessarily mean the job will pay well, so then where is a person supposed to come up with the funds? Some of us have argued that assistive technology should not be as expensive as it is. When we raise these points, others point to research and development, market size and scale as justifications for why it's okay to charge as much as companies do. You won't get any argument from me that traditional assistive technology ought to come down to prices the population can afford, but until that changes, the reality I see from where I sit is one where I have to pay up or get left behind, which forces me to make financial priorities. Paying the SMA is as much a means to stay with the current update as it is an investment in keeping pace in the workplace. Or, think of it a different way, some of us don't get a guide dog with the illusion that the dog will somehow pay for its own food and vet visits. I don't like the perception that school has to be paid entirely with loans. There are grants and scholarships available for just about everything under the sun. I'd draw out that argument further, but I'm not entirely sure how it ties into the discussion of employment, except you could argue that maybe eliminating the cheap beer would be one way to reduce dependency on loans, but that's another angle for a different forum. Yes, the economy keeps competition up. My argument is that blind people are every bit as capable of competing. I genuinely don't know how to express that more clearly. I found your sarcasm that everyone should learn to be like me rather glib. I wish I was like me at a much younger age, and I'm only 31. It was not my intention to pass off my achievements as a lofty standard only I am capable of obtaining. On the contrary, I want everyone to achieve similar independence in a manner that makes sense for their situation, and that, I think, is where we drastically differ in our thinking. If I were a college senior listening to your rhetoric, I'd honestly be worried out of my mind. At least I am attempting to give people hope that it can be done. Joe -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:53 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Joe: first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment. Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now, which keeps competition up. Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world! On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote: > Tyler, > > An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for > accommodations if we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with > our own resources. In fact, that's a good way to minimize the > perceived burden of hiring a blind person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. > Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses > associated with creating an accessible working environment. > > I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are > living with parents blind people should feel justified in being > unemployed. A lot of our generation is also doing ridiculous things > like taking parents along to job interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the same? > I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people > are seen in a negative light for having a disability. > > You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I > got the job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind > people can compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes > this convenient card to play when no other arguments hold water. > > I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said > the economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is > always a piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we > could stop hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the > persistent unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out > there. Whether we are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > Joe: > Minh's point was just this: > > There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see > college graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them > are qualified and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping > your skills sharp, so are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring > process, who do you think employers are going to hire? Are they going > to hire the blind guy who they are uncertain about, who they may need > to spend money on accomidating, or are they going to hire the next > perfectly abel person in line? They can pay lower wages and people > will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they don't, the next > person will. The economy is bad right now, which means it's bad for > everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell out > extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when > you can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You > sound like you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. > No, Minh never said we are less able. She was just pointing out some > of the logical reasons behind your point. you can deny all you want, > but it doesn't change the facts of life. As to your jab about her > mantality, she's probably one of the most active blind people I've > met, so I don't think that's the case here. It may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did nothing. > On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >> Tyler, >> >> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even >> with a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time >> business running, because although government jobs are said to be >> secure, nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because >> I still had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will >> have six months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? >> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair >> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to >> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a >> lot of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years >> ago. I say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new >> strategies to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first >> one that's the toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily >> increase his income, > you can do it better. >> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there >> are jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into >> one of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get >> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the >> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number >> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've >> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. >> >> Ashley, >> >> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During >> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities >> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my >> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed > positively. >> Minh, >> >> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we >> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to >> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes >> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class >> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not >> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire >> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right >> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need >> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, >> or we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy >> makes > things significantly worse for us. >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; > he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 15 04:43:18 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:43:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <5285A666.5000207@tysdomain.com> Hello Arielle: I feel like I've hashed out my points enough on either side to not warrent another response regarding those facts. I do, however have some points. First, the screenreader licenses (specifically Jaws) prohibits us from transfering licenses over to a professional system, as they would like businesses to buy licenses. This means that if you should get a job you will have one (and only one) computer you have access to, apart from your personal computer if you stay within the bounds of the license regarding the two computers you are allowed to run the software on. You are also not supposed to run the software simoltaniously. While taking your own laptop to work is also a viable solution, many corporations do not allow personal computers on to their network for a ton of reasons--the biggest being security. For example, I could not go to a software development firm and bring my laptop along generally. Many of us are writing these emails with screen readers, but I think it's safe to say Uncle Sam has helped purchase our readers for us, which may or may not happen when you get a job, depending on where you are located. On 11/14/2013 11:20 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi all, > > As usual, I believe that both extremes being advocated here are > incomplete explanations, and unnecessarily hostile to one another. The > best and most accurate position in my view is one midway between > them. > > First of all, Joe makes a good practical point about accommodations. > All of us are typing to this list using some kind of screen access > software that we presumably either own, or which comes built-in on our > computers if we are using Macs. Software we own is transferrable to a > work computer at no cost. Even if you received JAWS from rehab, I > believe you should still be able to run it on a work computer. At the > very least anybody can use JAWS in demo mode for free on a work > computer. This allows us to perform many computer jobs without costing > the employer a cent. If eventually we need to upgrade, we can then > decide whether to buy the upgrade out of pocket or ask the employer > for it as an accommodation, but by that point we should have earned > enough money from working at the job to be able to have options there. > Now if the software required for the job isn't compatible with screen > readers, that's a much more complicated issue, but even then there are > often free or low-cost work-arounds such as cleverly collaborating > with sighted colleagues etc. While some jobs do require > accommodations, many don't and many that do only require very > inexpensive ones. So we shouldn't go in assuming that we are more > expensive to hire than our sighted competitors. I plan to request no > accommodations for the professor and researcher jobs I am applying for > should I be interviewed. If the employer wants to offer me something, > great, but I know all my current technology is transferrable to a new > job situation. > Of course employers might not see it that way, and we as a group do > face a higher rate of discrimination than our sighted colleagues do. I > think what Joe is saying is that although we as a group do face > disadvantages on average in some fields, we aren't disadvantaged in > all fields and not all of us as individuals automatically experience > disadvantage. Those of us with good skills and good networking may > find ourselves in a better position for our chosen job field than > someone sighted who has less skills or less networking. > > My general philosophy is to do the best I can with what I have and the > situation I am in. We all sometimes face circumstances beyond our > control that hurt us, such as the economy and negative attitudes among > employers. While it is appropriate to acknowledge that barriers exist, > it is also appropriate to identify what we can control and make the > most of that. I think "blaming" the economy implies more than just > acknowledging that it is a problem, but actually giving up power over > things we can control such as skill building and taking the initiative > to contact employers. I don't think many blind people are actually > giving up their power like that and I don't think we should assume > that because someone is unemployed it's because they are not trying > hard enough. However, I also don't think Joe is painting an > unrealistic picture. While there may be a surplus of applicants for > some jobs, each one of us only needs to find one job. Not all of us > will find jobs right away or the jobs we necessarily want the most, > but I think that with creativity and persistence each one of us is > capable of attaining that goal. > > I think the sarcasm and accusation I am seeing on both sides of this > argument are misplaced. We are here to build each other up and > encourage each other to do the best we can in the situations we are > in. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/14/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >> Joe: >> >> first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and >> opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about >> "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college >> have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on >> raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can >> afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment. >> >> Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not >> justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm >> just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now, >> which keeps competition up. >> >> Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we >> all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives >> with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world! >> >> On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote: >>> Tyler, >>> >>> An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations >>> if >>> we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In >>> fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a >>> blind >>> person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. >>> Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses >>> associated with creating an accessible working environment. >>> >>> I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living >>> with >>> parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of >>> our >>> generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to >>> job >>> interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the >>> same? >>> I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people >>> are >>> seen in a negative light for having a disability. >>> >>> You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got >>> the >>> job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can >>> compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient >>> card to play when no other arguments hold water. >>> >>> I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the >>> economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always >>> a >>> piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop >>> hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent >>> unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether >>> we >>> are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM >>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >>> >>> Joe: >>> Minh's point was just this: >>> >>> There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see >>> college >>> graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are >>> qualified >>> and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, >>> so >>> are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think >>> employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who >>> they >>> are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or >>> are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can >>> pay >>> lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they >>> don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means >>> it's >>> bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell >>> out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when >>> you >>> can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound >>> like >>> you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh >>> never >>> said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical >>> reasons >>> behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the >>> facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of >>> the >>> most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. >>> It >>> may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did >>> nothing. >>> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >>>> Tyler, >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >>>> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with >>>> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business >>>> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, >>>> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still >>>> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six >>>> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? >>>> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair >>>> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to >>>> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot >>>> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I >>>> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies >>>> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the >>>> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his >>>> income, >>> you can do it better. >>>> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are >>>> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one >>>> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get >>>> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the >>>> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number >>>> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've >>>> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. >>>> >>>> Ashley, >>>> >>>> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During >>>> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities >>>> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my >>>> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed >>> positively. >>>> Minh, >>>> >>>> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >>>> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we >>>> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to >>>> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes >>>> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class >>>> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not >>>> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire >>>> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right >>>> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need >>>> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or >>>> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes >>> things significantly worse for us. >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>> com >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>> that >>> dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 04:50:16 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:50:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D11BC245162459685E8009F1DCC08FB@OwnerPC> Minh, Well what a successful academic life you had. thanks for clarifying. I admire those immigrants who came here and succeeded in school. Its not easy to go to top schools, very demanding. Its more complex if english is not one's first language. So I do find immigrant stories pretty admirable. Its not as easy as Joe makes it seem. I do agree with him though we have to keep our skills sharp and set ourselves apart and network. But as you illustrate, you can do all that and work your butt off for good grades and still face barriers. I had internships in the federal government but it seemed they dismissed my abilities and found little for me to do. I have lost volunteer jobs because there was too much paperwork involved to work the front desk. I was trying to volunteer at this front desk at a nonprofit for the very reason Joe talks about, to get experience and set myself apart from others. So we do live in a visual world and obstacles abound. Believe me, been there, done that. I just found another volunteer door slam shut because they would not let me install jaws there; and yes, people, I did offer to bring it in at no cost to them. They just are scared of software on their machines. Keep up the good work and perseverance. I t sounds like you are doing well and got that internship after all. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: minh ha Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Ashley, I do live in the U.S.; I was born in Vietnam but I moved here 12 years ago. Joe, Maybe you don’t agree with the part about the economy, but I have had too many personal experiences of being denied opportunities because of my blindness for you to tell me it’s soly because I’m not qualified enough. I graduated high school top of my class with hundreds of community service hours and am currently attending one of the best universities in the country; I have built a solid professional network filled with teachers, professors and leaders who can vouch for my competence and yet I was almost rejected from an internship position from the nonprofit I spoke of earlier. I think it’s quite insulting to those of us who work our asses off and are extremely well qualified for internships and jobs but get rejected for you to say that the reason we get denied is because we don’t sharpen our skills enough. Sure, you could argue that there are other factors involved in the decision making process like maybe the supervisor discriminated against me because I am Asian or female, but I’m not quite that dillusional. I’m all ears though if you would like to explain further how I and other blind students can sharpen our skills in order to make ourselves more qualified than we are now. On 11/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Min, > Do you live in the US? I thought you lived in an eastern country based on > earlier posts. > I agree with you. I've also volunteered at a nonprofit and seen very > highly > > qualified people looking for work now. > Its not an excuse to give up. But the jobs are in shorter supply and to > just > > dismiss this is very well, shortsighted. > We just have to work harder to find unadvertised jobs; network all you can > and volunteer because volunteering can turn into a job. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: minh ha > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:01 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > Are you kidding me? The economy is in the dumps right now and no > matter how well qualified you are, there just aren't enough jobs to go > around for everyone. I volunteer at a nonprofit that helps low-income > people look for employment, housing and benefits, etc, and I work with > people that have bachelors degrees and Ph.D.'s and they are hanging on > by a thread or actually homeless. If perfectly able bodied people > can't gain employment, then it's definitely a hundred times harder for > us to get a job because of our blindness. When the market is inundated > with qualified people looking for a position, who do you think > employers are going to look at first, the person with all the > qualifications that don't need accommodations or the person with the > same qualifications but need extra resources in order to work on a > level as everyone else. This is not an excuse for blind people to be > lazy and just sit at home and blame it on the economy, but it is a > reason why so many of us are unemployed. > > Minh > On 11/14/13, Joe wrote: >> Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to >> hear >> people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out >> there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up >> your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a >> compelling >> resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. >> Think >> outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as >> people >> say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm >> not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. >> I'm >> not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement >> according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything >> you >> find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming >> life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who >> was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed >> me >> off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. >> Eventually >> you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate >> ladder, >> and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, >> blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time >> job >> to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, >> whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, >> because >> if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a >> job >> when you kick the bucket. >> >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 15 04:54:03 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:54:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com><52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com><006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com><52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com><007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <5D53AD64C4CA4A3C9E497F271B6FBFAF@OwnerPC> Hey Tyler, You really like to debate. You got at me before and now Joe. I suspect Joe will still have his opinion and you will have yours in the end. Well how refreshing to see you go after another guy. Enjoy the debate and Joe is good at it. I have known and respect Joe; he lives in my area and we happened to attend the same booz allen disability mentoring day; neither one of us got jobs from that networking experience but he did secure a job with the FBI I think. Joe is a sharp guy with a masters degree. Anyway, I tend to agree with the comments put forth by Min and others here. Fact is the economy is down. Its hard to find jobs when no one is hiring; I spoke with employees of three very large companies who reported lay offs there. Fact is that college students now often return home and take odd part time jobs because they cannot use their degree. Its tough. I think very conservative people are in denial and accept no blame; they simply believe you have to pull yourself up from your bootstraps and work hard. Its not as easy. Employers are less likely to hire us cause of expensive accomodations. Believe me, I know that firsthand. I take a moderate position. I recognize the barriers we face like the economy, accessibility issues and discrimination. I will never deny that. But I also believe we have to make the best of our situations. We have to attempt to set ourselves apart from the thousands of others seeking jobs. That might mean taking volunteer leadership roles in civic organizations, volunteering in general, taking extra classes or getting extra certificates, or getting extra references. The points you and Minh raised are good ones. Another thing; you cannot always bring in your own accomodations as some people suggest. We can and will compete; it just is harder. Good luck with your schooling and finding work. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:53 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Joe: first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment. Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now, which keeps competition up. Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world! On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote: > Tyler, > > An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations > if > we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In > fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a blind > person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. > Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses > associated with creating an accessible working environment. > > I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living > with > parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of > our > generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to > job > interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the same? > I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people are > seen in a negative light for having a disability. > > You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got > the > job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can > compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient > card to play when no other arguments hold water. > > I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the > economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always > a > piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop > hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent > unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether > we > are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > Joe: > Minh's point was just this: > > There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see > college > graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are > qualified > and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, > so > are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think > employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who they > are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or > are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can > pay > lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they > don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means > it's > bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell > out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when > you > can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound like > you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh never > said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical > reasons > behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the > facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of > the > most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. > It > may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did > nothing. > On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >> Tyler, >> >> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with >> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business >> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, >> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still >> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six >> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? >> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair >> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to >> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot >> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I >> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies >> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the >> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his income, > you can do it better. >> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are >> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one >> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get >> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the >> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number >> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've >> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. >> >> Ashley, >> >> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During >> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities >> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my >> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed > positively. >> Minh, >> >> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we >> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to >> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes >> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class >> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not >> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire >> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right >> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need >> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or >> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes > things significantly worse for us. >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 05:14:30 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 00:14:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501cee1c1$907a3970$b16eac50$@gmail.com> Arielle, A classy post as always. Points well taken. Minh, To borrow your words, there are many people who "work their asses off" and still don't get the jobs or opportunities they wish they had. I was really discouraged from pursuing law school when I saw sighted friends graduating from top law schools with no job prospects in the legal field. My own brother graduated from a top engineering program and found it difficult to get his foot in the door with the companies he wanted. So, let's clear up that blindness is irrelevant. No, I do not deny that we face additional challenges as blind individuals, but to say that the challenges are so insurmountable as to keep us out of the job market denies the achievements many of us have worked hard to earn. I think a bigger constraint is a sense of entitlement. We graduate with honors, volunteered at X, Y and Z, donate a kidney, and somehow we're supposed to have opportunities fall onto our laps. It doesn't work that way. I've put in bids for jobs I knew I was over qualified to tackle, and the client chose to go with a less qualified competitor. That's life. It's harsh, but I would hate for anyone to leave college with a skewed perception that the need to stay as competitive as possible stops at the graduation ceremony. And why do the other reasons for rejection have to be based on discrimination at all? Tyler, Let's get the JAWS license information straight. You're not limited to two computers. You actually get five keys and can refresh the count upon request. That doesn't mean you go willy-nilly installing the software on friends' computers, but I have called tech support many times and referenced work versus home computers and was never yelled at for doing so. After all, they can't really expect you will have several computers lying around the house. Further, while it is true that companies can hesitate to automatically accept screen reading technology in their networks, it is not true that the software is outright rejected. You may not be able to bring your laptop to work, but you can use one of their terminals after the software has been vetted. If the company refuses to hire you on the grounds of software they do not want in their system, then you're laying the groundwork for a discrimination complaint. Ashley, You know I have a world of respect for you for hunting down those volunteer opportunities. The unfortunate aspect of volunteer work is that you are more at a disadvantage as to what a company can and cannot allow. If you were an employee, there would be an obligation to vet the software for their system. As a volunteer they enjoy the privilege to accept and deny at will. And, come on now. Conservatives do not believe people should be left on their own to pull themselves up by their boot straps. Speaking for myself, I just don't like to see anyone rely on someone else to provide the straps when they are more than capable of manufacturing their own. The irony in the liberal versus conservative debate in blindness is that the organization we all more or less belong to is pretty garsh darn conservative in its views of how blindness should be perceived... Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:32 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Ashley, I do live in the U.S.; I was born in Vietnam but I moved here 12 years ago. Joe, Maybe you don't agree with the part about the economy, but I have had too many personal experiences of being denied opportunities because of my blindness for you to tell me it's soly because I'm not qualified enough. I graduated high school top of my class with hundreds of community service hours and am currently attending one of the best universities in the country; I have built a solid professional network filled with teachers, professors and leaders who can vouch for my competence and yet I was almost rejected from an internship position from the nonprofit I spoke of earlier. I think it's quite insulting to those of us who work our asses off and are extremely well qualified for internships and jobs but get rejected for you to say that the reason we get denied is because we don't sharpen our skills enough. Sure, you could argue that there are other factors involved in the decision making process like maybe the supervisor discriminated against me because I am Asian or female, but I'm not quite that dillusional. I'm all ears though if you would like to explain further how I and other blind students can sharpen our skills in order to make ourselves more qualified than we are now. On 11/14/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Min, > Do you live in the US? I thought you lived in an eastern country based > on earlier posts. > I agree with you. I've also volunteered at a nonprofit and seen very > highly > > qualified people looking for work now. > Its not an excuse to give up. But the jobs are in shorter supply and > to just > > dismiss this is very well, shortsighted. > We just have to work harder to find unadvertised jobs; network all you > can and volunteer because volunteering can turn into a job. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: minh ha > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:01 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students > mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > Are you kidding me? The economy is in the dumps right now and no > matter how well qualified you are, there just aren't enough jobs to go > around for everyone. I volunteer at a nonprofit that helps low-income > people look for employment, housing and benefits, etc, and I work with > people that have bachelors degrees and Ph.D.'s and they are hanging on > by a thread or actually homeless. If perfectly able bodied people > can't gain employment, then it's definitely a hundred times harder for > us to get a job because of our blindness. When the market is inundated > with qualified people looking for a position, who do you think > employers are going to look at first, the person with all the > qualifications that don't need accommodations or the person with the > same qualifications but need extra resources in order to work on a > level as everyone else. This is not an excuse for blind people to be > lazy and just sit at home and blame it on the economy, but it is a > reason why so many of us are unemployed. > > Minh > On 11/14/13, Joe wrote: >> Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me >> to hear people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots >> of jobs out there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified >> applicants. Brush up your skills. Don't be picky about the job you >> can grab. Prepare a compelling resume. Be honest at the interview >> about what you can and cannot do. >> Think >> outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as >> people say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food >> circuit. I'm not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the >> rest of your life. >> I'm >> not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the >> pavement according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that >> everything you find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you >> need to stop blaming life for not getting a fair shake in the job >> market. I met a guy once who was really ashamed to admit he was >> working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed me off to no end because to me >> what mattered is that he had a job. >> Eventually >> you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate >> ladder, and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like >> everyone else, blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make >> it your full-time job to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader >> proficiency, Excel, Word, whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop >> blaming the damn economy, because if you wait for a perfect economic >> state, you'll still be looking for a job when you kick the bucket. >> >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmai >> l.com >> > > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on > their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail > .com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 15 15:15:05 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 09:15:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Joe and everyone, Totally agreed! You also need to be open-minded to exploring and trying other income-producing vehicles besides a traditional job. We've seen many blind individuals being presented with such options and they refuse to have any part of them. Then they wonder why they don't have opportunity. Society didn't tell them to reject such income-producing opportunity. The economy didn't tell them to say "No" to such opportunities when they were presented to them by caring friends and potential mentors. Mary and I have seen this happen for many years and the blind individuals that were presented with such alternatives are no better off than they were when seeking that job. Folks a traditional job isn't the only way to make a living. The next time someone wishes to share an income-producing opportunity to you and the association and parent company are reputable give it a go and reach for the stars. Peter Donahue who looks forward to owning his own plane so he and wife Mary will no longer have to put up with the behavior of U.S. Air and other airlines concerning their treatment of the blind. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:40 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to hear people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a compelling resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. Think outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as people say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. I'm not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything you find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed me off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, because if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a job when you kick the bucket. Joe _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 15 15:26:19 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 09:26:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Government Shut-Down and Job Security References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com><52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005e01cee217$08f45ac0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good morning again Joe and everyone, One would hope that the recent Government shut-down would be the "Wake-up call" for many folks to realize that traditional thinking concerning career paths are out-dated. It's obvious that many on this list and others we know are still buying in to the garbage of go to school, get good grades, and you'll land your dream job and will be set for life. As Joe said about 800,000 people received a "Wake-up call" as to just how secure their jobs and their futures are and the need for income diversification. Joe was presented with a way to develop a second income, took advantage of it, and was able to protect his family, livelihood, and was able to meet his financial needs despite the ranglings in Washington. His is a shining example of how income diversification can protect one's financial stability regardless of what is happening in the World. We strongly urge you to think outside the box and explore the creation of backup incomes for yourselves. If thousands of college students realize the need to develop multiple income sources the blind should be as intelligent and do likewise. We know because we've seen many of them at our association meetings. Persue that dream career but create a backup source of support so like Joe and others you'll be able to protect yourselves from job loss, economic factors, and other issues that can impact one's ability to make a living. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Tyler, I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his income, you can do it better. It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. Ashley, Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed positively. Minh, I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes things significantly worse for us. Joe _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From andrewjedg at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 15:35:50 2013 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:35:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: there is always the option of doing a job from home or doing online jobs. although nobody seems to know anything about that in my area. and how do you know what ones are scams because there is so many online scams these days and what online jobs are ligit. On 11/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Joe and everyone, > > Totally agreed! You also need to be open-minded to exploring and trying > > other income-producing vehicles besides a traditional job. We've seen many > blind individuals being presented with such options and they refuse to have > > any part of them. Then they wonder why they don't have opportunity. Society > > didn't tell them to reject such income-producing opportunity. The economy > didn't tell them to say "No" to such opportunities when they were presented > > to them by caring friends and potential mentors. Mary and I have seen this > happen for many years and the blind individuals that were presented with > such alternatives are no better off than they were when seeking that job. > > Folks a traditional job isn't the only way to make a living. The next > time someone wishes to share an income-producing opportunity to you and the > > association and parent company are reputable give it a go and reach for the > > stars. > > Peter Donahue who looks forward to owning his own plane so he and wife Mary > > will no longer have to put up with the behavior of U.S. Air and other > airlines concerning their treatment of the blind. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:40 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > > Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to hear > people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out > there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up > your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a > compelling > resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. Think > outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as > people > say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm > not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. > I'm > not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement > according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything you > find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming > life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who > was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed > me > off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually > you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, > and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, > blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job > to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, > whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, because > if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a job > when you kick the bucket. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 15 15:42:55 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 09:42:55 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com><005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <010b01cee219$5ac40a60$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello again everyone, There's an old adage that says "If it sounds too good to be true chances are that it is." Reputable companies will not advertise their opportunity as a "Get rich quick" scheme. If they do chances are they're a scam. Reputable companies will tell you that success only comes through hard work and by following a proven system of creating income. Their product lines are thoroughly researched and they have favorable credibility. When presented with such ventures be they work from home, a direct selling opportunity, or another revenue- producing plan do your research to determine their legitimacy and whether or not it will be a fit for you. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy there is always the option of doing a job from home or doing online jobs. although nobody seems to know anything about that in my area. and how do you know what ones are scams because there is so many online scams these days and what online jobs are ligit. On 11/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Joe and everyone, > > Totally agreed! You also need to be open-minded to exploring and > trying > > other income-producing vehicles besides a traditional job. We've seen many > blind individuals being presented with such options and they refuse to > have > > any part of them. Then they wonder why they don't have opportunity. > Society > > didn't tell them to reject such income-producing opportunity. The economy > didn't tell them to say "No" to such opportunities when they were > presented > > to them by caring friends and potential mentors. Mary and I have seen this > happen for many years and the blind individuals that were presented with > such alternatives are no better off than they were when seeking that job. > > Folks a traditional job isn't the only way to make a living. The next > time someone wishes to share an income-producing opportunity to you and > the > > association and parent company are reputable give it a go and reach for > the > > stars. > > Peter Donahue who looks forward to owning his own plane so he and wife > Mary > > will no longer have to put up with the behavior of U.S. Air and other > airlines concerning their treatment of the blind. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:40 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > > Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to > hear > people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out > there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up > your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a > compelling > resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. Think > outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as > people > say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm > not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. > I'm > not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement > according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything > you > find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming > life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who > was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed > me > off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually > you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate > ladder, > and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, > blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time > job > to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, > whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, because > if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a > job > when you kick the bucket. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Fri Nov 15 15:45:35 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:45:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <5286419F.6030005@comcast.net> On 11/15/2013 8:35 AM, Andrew wrote: > there is always the option of doing a job from home or doing online > jobs. although nobody seems to know anything about that in my area. > and how do you know what ones are scams because there is so many > online scams these days and what online jobs are ligit. > > On 11/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Joe and everyone, >> >> Totally agreed! You also need to be open-minded to exploring and trying >> >> other income-producing vehicles besides a traditional job. We've seen many >> blind individuals being presented with such options and they refuse to have >> >> any part of them. Then they wonder why they don't have opportunity. Society >> >> didn't tell them to reject such income-producing opportunity. The economy >> didn't tell them to say "No" to such opportunities when they were presented >> >> to them by caring friends and potential mentors. Mary and I have seen this >> happen for many years and the blind individuals that were presented with >> such alternatives are no better off than they were when seeking that job. >> >> Folks a traditional job isn't the only way to make a living. The next >> time someone wishes to share an income-producing opportunity to you and the >> >> association and parent company are reputable give it a go and reach for the >> >> stars. >> >> Peter Donahue who looks forward to owning his own plane so he and wife Mary >> >> will no longer have to put up with the behavior of U.S. Air and other >> airlines concerning their treatment of the blind. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:40 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >> >> >> Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to hear >> people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out >> there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up >> your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a >> compelling >> resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. Think >> outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as >> people >> say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm >> not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. >> I'm >> not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement >> according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything you >> find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming >> life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who >> was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed >> me >> off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually >> you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, >> and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, >> blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job >> to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, >> whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, because >> if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a job >> when you kick the bucket. >> >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > True. I did a work from home job, but still, it was downsized because the woman was a bit selfish. No names. Beth From andrewjedg at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 15:48:39 2013 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:48:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <010b01cee219$5ac40a60$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <010b01cee219$5ac40a60$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: I personally would rather be able to work in the out in the community that is my preferred for me but if I absolutely as a last resourt I would work from home online. On 11/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello again everyone, > > There's an old adage that says "If it sounds too good to be true chances > > are that it is." Reputable companies will not advertise their opportunity as > > a "Get rich quick" scheme. If they do chances are they're a scam. Reputable > > companies will tell you that success only comes through hard work and by > following a proven system of creating income. Their product lines are > thoroughly researched and they have favorable credibility. When presented > with such ventures be they work from home, a direct selling opportunity, or > > another revenue- producing plan do your research to determine their > legitimacy and whether or not it will be a fit for you. > > Peter Donahue > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 9:35 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > > there is always the option of doing a job from home or doing online > jobs. although nobody seems to know anything about that in my area. > and how do you know what ones are scams because there is so many > online scams these days and what online jobs are ligit. > > On 11/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Joe and everyone, >> >> Totally agreed! You also need to be open-minded to exploring and >> trying >> >> other income-producing vehicles besides a traditional job. We've seen >> many >> blind individuals being presented with such options and they refuse to >> have >> >> any part of them. Then they wonder why they don't have opportunity. >> Society >> >> didn't tell them to reject such income-producing opportunity. The economy >> didn't tell them to say "No" to such opportunities when they were >> presented >> >> to them by caring friends and potential mentors. Mary and I have seen >> this >> happen for many years and the blind individuals that were presented with >> such alternatives are no better off than they were when seeking that job. >> >> Folks a traditional job isn't the only way to make a living. The next >> time someone wishes to share an income-producing opportunity to you and >> the >> >> association and parent company are reputable give it a go and reach for >> the >> >> stars. >> >> Peter Donahue who looks forward to owning his own plane so he and wife >> Mary >> >> will no longer have to put up with the behavior of U.S. Air and other >> airlines concerning their treatment of the blind. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:40 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >> >> >> Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to >> hear >> people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of jobs out >> there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified applicants. Brush up >> your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can grab. Prepare a >> compelling >> resume. Be honest at the interview about what you can and cannot do. >> Think >> outside the box, because if the training centers are as phenomenal as >> people >> say, we ought to see more blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm >> not saying you should settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. >> I'm >> not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the pavement >> according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that everything >> you >> find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you need to stop blaming >> life for not getting a fair shake in the job market. I met a guy once who >> was really ashamed to admit he was working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed >> me >> off to no end because to me what mattered is that he had a job. >> Eventually >> you work your way to the job you really want, work up the corporate >> ladder, >> and you know, you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, >> blind or sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time >> job >> to strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, >> whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, >> because >> if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be looking for a >> job >> when you kick the bucket. >> >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 16:42:21 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:42:21 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" Message-ID: Hi all, I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are amazing at one time or another. Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us has a low expectation of blind people. When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you not find yourself being offended by the statement? Darian From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 15 16:51:20 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:51:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52865108.3010103@tysdomain.com> Darrian, I think this is a really cool topic actually because I've seen people's reactions and they are drastically different. First, when someone says they are amazing, it means to me that they are looking up to me somehow, or that I am somehow inspiring them. While I do believe it's because they think I've done a ton to overcome some debilitating disability that should've left me sitting at home waiting on my golden platter, it always makes me feel a bit better. Not because I like to hear it, because I know there are just as many blind people out there doing what I am, but because I know that I can have that affect on someone and perhaps it will help in some way. So my reaction is to generally say thanks, or to take the conversation forward from there. On the flipside, I've found myself doing the same thing for a couple of people. One person in particular for example has been through more than I could really imagine ever having to deal with and is an amazing person at the end of it all. When I use amazing in that same context, they obviously say they are not, which always kind of brings me full circle to when people tell me the exact same thing. So just some food for thought there. I do think it's worth noting here that when people generally tell you this, it's not them feeling sorry for you, but looking up to you. I feel like we should treat this similarly. Don't give them a bad reaction, but give them an inspiration, give them someone to look up to. On 11/15/2013 11:42 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > Hi all, > > I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are amazing at one time or another. > Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us has a low expectation of blind people. > When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you not find yourself being offended by the statement? > > Darian > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Fri Nov 15 16:57:18 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:57:18 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d6a0ef735d74c5388b2b0ba7dad8924@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> We should say, "OMG, you are to! You can recognize me just by looking at my face! That's so cool! How do you do that? And you can drive around really fast and not crash into anything. It's so awesome! I could never do that!" Just kidding, LOL. I actually just tell them that if they practiced enough they could do it with their eyes closed. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 11:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" Hi all, I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are amazing at one time or another. Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us has a low expectation of blind people. When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you not find yourself being offended by the statement? Darian _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 17:06:09 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:06:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com> Hi Andrew, Pete Donahue is an example of someone who has done well for himself as an entrepreneur. He taught himself how to develop websites and does a really great job of recording events. Mike Calvo is someone who knew he wanted to develop an affordable screen reader and rounded up the people who would be responsible for the creation of what would become System Access. Serotek is doing well for itself, and he's now moved on to doing work on an international level. My story is not as exciting. I simply enjoy writing. I started off doing grant writing for nonprofits and slowly branched out. Now I do copywriting for a mix of tech startups and larger companies. It's my side venture, because I'm not quite ready to take a gamble on fluctuating income. And, I really enjoy it. My fear is that it may not be as fun for me if I made it a full-time job. My point here is that you don't necessarily have to buy into one of those commission structures. If you have a talent, you could be marketing yourself independently. Perhaps you've thought of doing massage therapy, computer repairs, piano tuning, Braille transcription, audio editing, or any number of viable business ventures. I've read a bunch of books on the subject for when I decide to take the plunge full-time. Then it's a matter of connecting with the right people to do those things you know you're not good at. I, for example, plan to start using an accountant because I am not good at keeping books. In the future I may launch a website specifically to help people launch an online business. Until then, if you're interested, get in touch off list. I'd love to do what I can to help people be a little more financially independent. Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 10:36 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy there is always the option of doing a job from home or doing online jobs. although nobody seems to know anything about that in my area. and how do you know what ones are scams because there is so many online scams these days and what online jobs are ligit. On 11/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Joe and everyone, > > Totally agreed! You also need to be open-minded to exploring and > trying > > other income-producing vehicles besides a traditional job. We've seen > many blind individuals being presented with such options and they > refuse to have > > any part of them. Then they wonder why they don't have opportunity. > Society > > didn't tell them to reject such income-producing opportunity. The > economy didn't tell them to say "No" to such opportunities when they > were presented > > to them by caring friends and potential mentors. Mary and I have seen > this happen for many years and the blind individuals that were > presented with such alternatives are no better off than they were when seeking that job. > > Folks a traditional job isn't the only way to make a living. The > next time someone wishes to share an income-producing opportunity to > you and the > > association and parent company are reputable give it a go and reach > for the > > stars. > > Peter Donahue who looks forward to owning his own plane so he and wife > Mary > > will no longer have to put up with the behavior of U.S. Air and other > airlines concerning their treatment of the blind. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:40 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > > Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to > hear people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of > jobs out there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified > applicants. Brush up your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can > grab. Prepare a compelling resume. Be honest at the interview about > what you can and cannot do. Think outside the box, because if the > training centers are as phenomenal as people say, we ought to see more > blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm not saying you should > settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. > I'm > not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the > pavement according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that > everything you find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you > need to stop blaming life for not getting a fair shake in the job > market. I met a guy once who was really ashamed to admit he was > working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed me off to no end because to me > what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually you work your way to > the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, and you know, > you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, blind or > sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job to > strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, > whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, > because if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be > looking for a job when you kick the bucket. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > r.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail > .com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 17:10:18 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:10:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b201cee225$8f9c3710$aed4a530$@gmail.com> Darian, You are not amazing. Does that help you feel better? LOL I think Tyler's response had the right of it. To be honest, I shrug off the compliment, deflect it with a compliment about something the person does better than I do, and move on. In a world where there are maybe not enough good things said about people, I almost think it's nice that people bother to say that anyone is amazing at all. As for you sir, no one can motivate people to community service like you can, so you just keep on being your amazing self and never mind the rest. Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 11:42 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" Hi all, I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are amazing at one time or another. Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us has a low expectation of blind people. When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you not find yourself being offended by the statement? Darian _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Fri Nov 15 17:13:15 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:13:15 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4af88e249be94e56a3e0597a624fc3a9@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Tell me about other income opportunities. I'm curious. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 12:06 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Hi Andrew, Pete Donahue is an example of someone who has done well for himself as an entrepreneur. He taught himself how to develop websites and does a really great job of recording events. Mike Calvo is someone who knew he wanted to develop an affordable screen reader and rounded up the people who would be responsible for the creation of what would become System Access. Serotek is doing well for itself, and he's now moved on to doing work on an international level. My story is not as exciting. I simply enjoy writing. I started off doing grant writing for nonprofits and slowly branched out. Now I do copywriting for a mix of tech startups and larger companies. It's my side venture, because I'm not quite ready to take a gamble on fluctuating income. And, I really enjoy it. My fear is that it may not be as fun for me if I made it a full-time job. My point here is that you don't necessarily have to buy into one of those commission structures. If you have a talent, you could be marketing yourself independently. Perhaps you've thought of doing massage therapy, computer repairs, piano tuning, Braille transcription, audio editing, or any number of viable business ventures. I've read a bunch of books on the subject for when I decide to take the plunge full-time. Then it's a matter of connecting with the right people to do those things you know you're not good at. I, for example, plan to start using an accountant because I am not good at keeping books. In the future I may launch a website specifically to help people launch an online business. Until then, if you're interested, get in touch off list. I'd love to do what I can to help people be a little more financially independent. Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 10:36 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy there is always the option of doing a job from home or doing online jobs. although nobody seems to know anything about that in my area. and how do you know what ones are scams because there is so many online scams these days and what online jobs are ligit. On 11/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Joe and everyone, > > Totally agreed! You also need to be open-minded to exploring and > trying > > other income-producing vehicles besides a traditional job. We've seen > many blind individuals being presented with such options and they > refuse to have > > any part of them. Then they wonder why they don't have opportunity. > Society > > didn't tell them to reject such income-producing opportunity. The > economy didn't tell them to say "No" to such opportunities when they > were presented > > to them by caring friends and potential mentors. Mary and I have seen > this happen for many years and the blind individuals that were > presented with such alternatives are no better off than they were when seeking that job. > > Folks a traditional job isn't the only way to make a living. The > next time someone wishes to share an income-producing opportunity to > you and the > > association and parent company are reputable give it a go and reach > for the > > stars. > > Peter Donahue who looks forward to owning his own plane so he and wife > Mary > > will no longer have to put up with the behavior of U.S. Air and other > airlines concerning their treatment of the blind. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe" > To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:40 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > > Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to > hear people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of > jobs out there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified > applicants. Brush up your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can > grab. Prepare a compelling resume. Be honest at the interview about > what you can and cannot do. Think outside the box, because if the > training centers are as phenomenal as people say, we ought to see more > blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm not saying you should > settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. > I'm > not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the > pavement according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that > everything you find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you > need to stop blaming life for not getting a fair shake in the job > market. I met a guy once who was really ashamed to admit he was > working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed me off to no end because to me > what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually you work your way to > the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, and you know, > you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, blind or > sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job to > strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, > whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, > because if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be > looking for a job when you kick the bucket. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r > r.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail > .com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 15 17:32:16 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52865AA0.5010908@tysdomain.com> Joe: Here's an area I've explored. I started teaching myself programming when I was about 12 or 13. Right now, my skills I tend to market are web development, software development and system administration. I worked on a site called vworker for a while at one point--where I would get paid minimal money to do work here and there, which was always useful since I had the time to spare. VWorker has gone paid however and I am at a loss as to other areas where I could start using my skills. I'm not totally sure I want to set up a business since I am still in school, but getting jobs where I can use my skills. I've also posted on craigslist and gotten the word out there, but that mainly resulted in a lot of spam, and one offer of a prostitute via Email. I'm saying all of this again because you make it sound easy. got skills, get a job! it's not quite as easy as one might expect it to be. On 11/15/2013 12:06 PM, Joe wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Pete Donahue is an example of someone who has done well for himself as an > entrepreneur. He taught himself how to develop websites and does a really > great job of recording events. > > Mike Calvo is someone who knew he wanted to develop an affordable screen > reader and rounded up the people who would be responsible for the creation > of what would become System Access. Serotek is doing well for itself, and > he's now moved on to doing work on an international level. > > My story is not as exciting. I simply enjoy writing. I started off doing > grant writing for nonprofits and slowly branched out. Now I do copywriting > for a mix of tech startups and larger companies. It's my side venture, > because I'm not quite ready to take a gamble on fluctuating income. And, I > really enjoy it. My fear is that it may not be as fun for me if I made it a > full-time job. > > My point here is that you don't necessarily have to buy into one of those > commission structures. If you have a talent, you could be marketing yourself > independently. Perhaps you've thought of doing massage therapy, computer > repairs, piano tuning, Braille transcription, audio editing, or any number > of viable business ventures. I've read a bunch of books on the subject for > when I decide to take the plunge full-time. Then it's a matter of connecting > with the right people to do those things you know you're not good at. I, for > example, plan to start using an accountant because I am not good at keeping > books. In the future I may launch a website specifically to help people > launch an online business. Until then, if you're interested, get in touch > off list. I'd love to do what I can to help people be a little more > financially independent. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Andrew > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 10:36 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > > there is always the option of doing a job from home or doing online jobs. > although nobody seems to know anything about that in my area. > and how do you know what ones are scams because there is so many online > scams these days and what online jobs are ligit. > > On 11/15/13, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Joe and everyone, >> >> Totally agreed! You also need to be open-minded to exploring and >> trying >> >> other income-producing vehicles besides a traditional job. We've seen >> many blind individuals being presented with such options and they >> refuse to have >> >> any part of them. Then they wonder why they don't have opportunity. >> Society >> >> didn't tell them to reject such income-producing opportunity. The >> economy didn't tell them to say "No" to such opportunities when they >> were presented >> >> to them by caring friends and potential mentors. Mary and I have seen >> this happen for many years and the blind individuals that were >> presented with such alternatives are no better off than they were when > seeking that job. >> Folks a traditional job isn't the only way to make a living. The >> next time someone wishes to share an income-producing opportunity to >> you and the >> >> association and parent company are reputable give it a go and reach >> for the >> >> stars. >> >> Peter Donahue who looks forward to owning his own plane so he and wife >> Mary >> >> will no longer have to put up with the behavior of U.S. Air and other >> airlines concerning their treatment of the blind. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Joe" >> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:40 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >> >> >> Yes, the economy could be better, but I have to say it irritates me to >> hear people blame the economy for being unemployed. There are lots of >> jobs out there. The shortage has more to do with unqualified >> applicants. Brush up your skills. Don't be picky about the job you can >> grab. Prepare a compelling resume. Be honest at the interview about >> what you can and cannot do. Think outside the box, because if the >> training centers are as phenomenal as people say, we ought to see more >> blind people working the fast food circuit. I'm not saying you should >> settle for minimum wage for the rest of your life. >> I'm >> not saying you're going to get hired tomorrow if you pound the >> pavement according to the suggestions above. I'm not even saying that >> everything you find will be easily accessible, but I am saying you >> need to stop blaming life for not getting a fair shake in the job >> market. I met a guy once who was really ashamed to admit he was >> working at a Lighthouse, and it pissed me off to no end because to me >> what mattered is that he had a job. Eventually you work your way to >> the job you really want, work up the corporate ladder, and you know, >> you work your ass off to get there just like everyone else, blind or >> sighted. Figure out your weaknesses and make it your full-time job to >> strengthen them, whether it's screen reader proficiency, Excel, Word, >> whatever. But, for crying out loud, stop blaming the damn economy, >> because if you wait for a perfect economic state, you'll still be >> looking for a job when you kick the bucket. >> >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.r >> r.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail >> .com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From dsykora29 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 17:44:37 2013 From: dsykora29 at gmail.com (Danielle Sykora) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:44:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: <00b201cee225$8f9c3710$aed4a530$@gmail.com> References: <00b201cee225$8f9c3710$aed4a530$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree that this is an interesting topic. For me, it honestly depends on the situation and the person. I find being called amazing for simple things, like walking across a room, mildly offensive and quite irritating although I generally just try to forget about it. If that person did not have low expectations, they wouldn't be telling me I'm amazing for accomplishing such simple tasks and I don't enjoy having to prove to everyone that I can do things all of the time. I usually respond with something to the effect of "thank you, but it is not amazing" sometimes followed up by a short explanation or comparison if I know it will actually have some effect on that particular person. On 11/15/13, Joe wrote: > Darian, > > You are not amazing. Does that help you feel better? LOL I think Tyler's > response had the right of it. To be honest, I shrug off the compliment, > deflect it with a compliment about something the person does better than I > do, and move on. In a world where there are maybe not enough good things > said about people, I almost think it's nice that people bother to say that > anyone is amazing at all. As for you sir, no one can motivate people to > community service like you can, so you just keep on being your amazing self > and never mind the rest. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 11:42 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" > > Hi all, > > I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are amazing > at one time or another. > Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us has > a > low expectation of blind people. > When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not > amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you not > find yourself being offended by the statement? > > Darian > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsykora29%40gmail.com > From trillian551 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 17:58:41 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:58:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: <00b201cee225$8f9c3710$aed4a530$@gmail.com> References: <00b201cee225$8f9c3710$aed4a530$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just compliment them on their willingness to admit a self-evident truth, that of my awesomeness! Lol. I kid! I think it depends on the context. If I'm walking, and someone says I'm amazing, and if I have time, I'll ask why? If they tell me because I can walk, I point out that they can to. If they say that I can almost run in six-inch heels, when the situation calls for it, I'll say, how much practice I've had. I suppose it's nice to be inspiring to people, but I simply cannot see myself as inspiring, when all I'm doing is walking. I think that learning to take compliments is an important and useful skill to have. I find that I'm a lot more comfortable with criticism than I am with compliments of any type. And part of that is that I want to be seen holistically, and not have my blindness be the thing which people focus on. And that's why I insist and making people think through what they say if I have the time. As blind people, we are just people. And typically, you don't go around telling people they are amazing just when you see them walking down the street. For all they know, I'm a horrible human being, who hates puppies, bunnies and penguins. Oh, and ducks. How could anyone hate ducks? All that is to say, that I agree, that when you are being told you are amazing, and you are not aware of having just made a display of your awesomenss, aside from gracing the universe with your presence, it is a good conversation starter, and educational opportunity. Whether its fashion or blindness you choose to educate on, is up to you. Mary On 11/15/13, Joe wrote: > Darian, > > You are not amazing. Does that help you feel better? LOL I think Tyler's > response had the right of it. To be honest, I shrug off the compliment, > deflect it with a compliment about something the person does better than I > do, and move on. In a world where there are maybe not enough good things > said about people, I almost think it's nice that people bother to say that > anyone is amazing at all. As for you sir, no one can motivate people to > community service like you can, so you just keep on being your amazing self > and never mind the rest. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 11:42 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" > > Hi all, > > I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are amazing > at one time or another. > Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us has > a > low expectation of blind people. > When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not > amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you not > find yourself being offended by the statement? > > Darian > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From sandragayer7 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 18:25:12 2013 From: sandragayer7 at gmail.com (Sandra Gayer) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 18:25:12 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: References: <00b201cee225$8f9c3710$aed4a530$@gmail.com> Message-ID: In general, it's best to just accept it with good grace. Very best wishes, Sandra. On 11/15/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > I just compliment them on their willingness to admit a self-evident > truth, that of my awesomeness! Lol. I kid! > I think it depends on the context. If I'm walking, and someone says > I'm amazing, and if I have time, I'll ask why? If they tell me because > I can walk, I point out that they can to. If they say that I can > almost run in six-inch heels, when the situation calls for it, I'll > say, how much practice I've had. I suppose it's nice to be inspiring > to people, but I simply cannot see myself as inspiring, when all I'm > doing is walking. > I think that learning to take compliments is an important and useful > skill to have. I find that I'm a lot more comfortable with criticism > than I am with compliments of any type. And part of that is that I > want to be seen holistically, and not have my blindness be the thing > which people focus on. And that's why I insist and making people think > through what they say if I have the time. As blind people, we are just > people. And typically, you don't go around telling people they are > amazing just when you see them walking down the street. For all they > know, I'm a horrible human being, who hates puppies, bunnies and > penguins. Oh, and ducks. How could anyone hate ducks? > All that is to say, that I agree, that when you are being told you > are amazing, and you are not aware of having just made a display of > your awesomenss, aside from gracing the universe with your presence, > it is a good conversation starter, and educational opportunity. > Whether its fashion or blindness you choose to educate on, is up to > you. > > Mary > > On 11/15/13, Joe wrote: >> Darian, >> >> You are not amazing. Does that help you feel better? LOL I think Tyler's >> response had the right of it. To be honest, I shrug off the compliment, >> deflect it with a compliment about something the person does better than >> I >> do, and move on. In a world where there are maybe not enough good things >> said about people, I almost think it's nice that people bother to say >> that >> anyone is amazing at all. As for you sir, no one can motivate people to >> community service like you can, so you just keep on being your amazing >> self >> and never mind the rest. >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith >> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 11:42 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" >> >> Hi all, >> >> I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are >> amazing >> at one time or another. >> Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us >> has >> a >> low expectation of blind people. >> When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not >> amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you >> not >> find yourself being offended by the statement? >> >> Darian >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > — > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > -- Soprano Singer www.sandragayer.com Broadcast Presenter www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html From lissa1531 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 18:32:04 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:32:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com><52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com><006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com><52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com><007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com><52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <3BE0FD67A14841A0A32D8D2169AEEB21@HP30910210001> very well said arielle. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:20 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Hi all, As usual, I believe that both extremes being advocated here are incomplete explanations, and unnecessarily hostile to one another. The best and most accurate position in my view is one midway between them. First of all, Joe makes a good practical point about accommodations. All of us are typing to this list using some kind of screen access software that we presumably either own, or which comes built-in on our computers if we are using Macs. Software we own is transferrable to a work computer at no cost. Even if you received JAWS from rehab, I believe you should still be able to run it on a work computer. At the very least anybody can use JAWS in demo mode for free on a work computer. This allows us to perform many computer jobs without costing the employer a cent. If eventually we need to upgrade, we can then decide whether to buy the upgrade out of pocket or ask the employer for it as an accommodation, but by that point we should have earned enough money from working at the job to be able to have options there. Now if the software required for the job isn't compatible with screen readers, that's a much more complicated issue, but even then there are often free or low-cost work-arounds such as cleverly collaborating with sighted colleagues etc. While some jobs do require accommodations, many don't and many that do only require very inexpensive ones. So we shouldn't go in assuming that we are more expensive to hire than our sighted competitors. I plan to request no accommodations for the professor and researcher jobs I am applying for should I be interviewed. If the employer wants to offer me something, great, but I know all my current technology is transferrable to a new job situation. Of course employers might not see it that way, and we as a group do face a higher rate of discrimination than our sighted colleagues do. I think what Joe is saying is that although we as a group do face disadvantages on average in some fields, we aren't disadvantaged in all fields and not all of us as individuals automatically experience disadvantage. Those of us with good skills and good networking may find ourselves in a better position for our chosen job field than someone sighted who has less skills or less networking. My general philosophy is to do the best I can with what I have and the situation I am in. We all sometimes face circumstances beyond our control that hurt us, such as the economy and negative attitudes among employers. While it is appropriate to acknowledge that barriers exist, it is also appropriate to identify what we can control and make the most of that. I think "blaming" the economy implies more than just acknowledging that it is a problem, but actually giving up power over things we can control such as skill building and taking the initiative to contact employers. I don't think many blind people are actually giving up their power like that and I don't think we should assume that because someone is unemployed it's because they are not trying hard enough. However, I also don't think Joe is painting an unrealistic picture. While there may be a surplus of applicants for some jobs, each one of us only needs to find one job. Not all of us will find jobs right away or the jobs we necessarily want the most, but I think that with creativity and persistence each one of us is capable of attaining that goal. I think the sarcasm and accusation I am seeing on both sides of this argument are misplaced. We are here to build each other up and encourage each other to do the best we can in the situations we are in. Best, Arielle On 11/14/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > Joe: > > first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and > opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about > "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college > have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on > raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can > afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment. > > Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not > justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm > just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now, > which keeps competition up. > > Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we > all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives > with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world! > > On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote: >> Tyler, >> >> An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations >> if >> we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In >> fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a >> blind >> person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. >> Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses >> associated with creating an accessible working environment. >> >> I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living >> with >> parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of >> our >> generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to >> job >> interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the >> same? >> I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people >> are >> seen in a negative light for having a disability. >> >> You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got >> the >> job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can >> compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient >> card to play when no other arguments hold water. >> >> I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the >> economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always >> a >> piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop >> hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent >> unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether >> we >> are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM >> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >> >> Joe: >> Minh's point was just this: >> >> There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see >> college >> graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are >> qualified >> and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, >> so >> are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think >> employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who >> they >> are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or >> are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can >> pay >> lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they >> don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means >> it's >> bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell >> out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when >> you >> can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound >> like >> you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh >> never >> said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical >> reasons >> behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the >> facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of >> the >> most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. >> It >> may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did >> nothing. >> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >>> Tyler, >>> >>> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >>> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with >>> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business >>> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, >>> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still >>> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six >>> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? >>> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair >>> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to >>> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot >>> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I >>> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies >>> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the >>> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his >>> income, >> you can do it better. >>> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are >>> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one >>> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get >>> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the >>> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number >>> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've >>> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. >>> >>> Ashley, >>> >>> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During >>> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities >>> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my >>> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed >> positively. >>> Minh, >>> >>> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >>> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we >>> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to >>> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes >>> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class >>> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not >>> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire >>> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right >>> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need >>> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or >>> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes >> things significantly worse for us. >>> Joe >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>> com >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Nov 15 19:57:52 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 13:57:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe, I agree with you to an extent, but in a way, you're over simplify this situation yourself. First, disabled or not, employment is difficult to come by right now. Yes, there are jobs, but not many, and depending on your qualifications, you may or not be considered. My husband works full-time but hopes to find a better job with better benefits. My son and I can't be on his work insurance because it would cost over half of my husband's paycheck to do so. He's also a full-time student. He's searched relentlessly for new employment, applying for all and any job. Most employers keep telling him he's over-qualified since he has a degree already with 15 years of work experience. Some places haven't given him the time of day. A couple of places were very interested until they found out he was blind. One employer even bluntly asked during the interview how my husbanded expected to work as a blind person. So applying for jobs and being motivated doesn't always yield results. And, unlike like many of you, he has a family to factor into the equation. I also have my degree, but I haven't worked for ten years because first I was very sick, which caused me to lose my sight. Then I was in training then got married and went back to school. I was lucky and was able to go to school full-time. Then I had a baby, and with the cost of daycare, it makes more sense for me to be a stay-at-home mom, plus my son was very sick when he was born. He's fine now, but he spent six weeks in the NICU, and when we finally brought him home, he wasn't able to go out much to make sure he didn't get sick. So, my point is that employers don't want to give me the time of day. Also, most employers won't allow you to provide software like JAWS or Window Eyes. In our experience, employers won't let us do this; they claim they have to purchase it. My husband has offered to supply JAWS but so far, employers won't let him do it. So your argument of supplying accommodations on your own isn't always a valid one. And blaming the economy doesn't mean we are claiming it's specific to blind people; it's anyone seeking employment regardless of a disability. And all Minh is pointing out is that employers still hold those negative perceptions of blind people, and many will hire a non-disabled person over the disabled person, especially if a lot of accommodations are necessary. This is not to say blind people are less qualified, but that employers may think this. You're very idealistic, but at the end of the day, this is a complicated situation. The economy is bad for anyone; it has nothing to do with blindness. You can have the best blindness training possible, the best college degree, loads of work experience and still not be hired. You can apply for job after job, regardless of what that job is and still not find one. Bridgit Message: 16 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:16:02 -0500 From: "Joe" To: "'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Message-ID: <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tyler, An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations if we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a blind person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses associated with creating an accessible working environment. I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living with parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of our generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to job interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the same? I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people are seen in a negative light for having a disability. You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got the job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient card to play when no other arguments hold water. I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always a piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether we are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. From juanitaherrera1991 at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 20:18:32 2013 From: juanitaherrera1991 at gmail.com (Juanita Herrera) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:18:32 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great topic, Mr. Smith! First let me start off by saying that you are amazing! I admire how you are able to handle a zillion things at once. I could never do that. As for being complimented, I generally take it with great stride because I know that not all blind people are out there doing something with their lives. I'm not hinting that they are unable to get out there and live life, but rather that they find every excuse to not do so. Therefore, I find that compliments are great motivators, and personally keep me going. Everyone likes compliments! Juanita Herrera, Residential Counselor Junior Blind of America www.juniorblind.org Sent from my iPad > On Nov 15, 2013, at 8:42 AM, Darian Smith wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are amazing at one time or another. > Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us has a low expectation of blind people. > When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you not find yourself being offended by the statement? > > Darian > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/juanitaherrera1991%40gmail.com From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 20:52:07 2013 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel and Stockard) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 14:52:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act References: Message-ID: <8A4BBC23-FCD3-45DF-87E3-FDA309A80E6D@gmail.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: "McLarney, Lauren" (by way of David Andrews ) > Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act > Date: November 15, 2013 at 2:09:20 PM CST > To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > > Dear Fellow Federationists, > > I am proud to say that today after ten months of anticipation; Congressman Tom Petri introduced the Technology, Education and Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act (HR 3505)! The TEACH Act creates long-overdue accessibility guidelines for electronic instructional materials and related information technologies used by institutions of higher education. > > The law currently prohibits the use of inaccessible technology in the classroom because it is a form of discrimination that leaves blind students behind, and yet the overwhelming majority of digital instructional material is unusable by blind students. The guidelines created by the TEACH Act will give direction for manufacturers of educational technology to increase commercial availability of accessible materials, a prescription for institutions of higher education for how to best serve their disabled students and meet their legal obligations, and a promise that all students, disabled or not, will have equal access to high-quality education in the twenty-first century classroom. > > Blind people have been waiting for at least five years (much more, in reality) to see something done about the needless burdens blind college students face because of inaccessible technology. With the introduction of the TEACH Act, we are done waiting for the process of change to start. > > The creation of the TEACH Act was the result of a collaboration between the National Federation of the Blind and the Association of American Publishers. The introduction of the TEACH Act is the result of many months of networking and nuanced language tangling. However, the passage of the TEACH Act will solely be the result of the passion and power of the NFB. I have heard from so many of you about how personal this issue is, and I am always, always, always impressed at how willing and excited you all are to get going. Now we can finally stop chomping at the bit and get started! The advocacy for this bill will start with targeted meetings with Republicans on the Education and Workforce Committee. The legislative directors in the applicable states have already begun planning pre-Washington Seminar conference calls. I urge the rest of you to reach out to your members of Congress today, bringing this to their attention while it is still a brand new bill, giving them background for your upcoming Washington Seminar meetings, and even urging them to co-sponsor now. Please be advised that this is a delicate political climate – all co-sponsors are welcome, but we want this bill to be as bi-partisan as possible. > > The text of the bill and an updated fact sheet are attached. If you have any questions, give me a ring at the National Center at 410.659.9314 ext. 2207 or email me at lmclarney at nfb.org. I'm looking forward to working with everyone to make this thing move! > > Lauren > > Lauren McLarney > Government Affairs Specialist > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > 200 East Wells St. > Baltimore, MD 21230 > (410) 659 9314 ext. 2207 > lmclarney at nfb.org > > > > > > Take the stress out of this year’s holiday shopping with NFB’s Bid for Equality national online auction: Black Friday, Nov. 29, to Giving Tuesday, Dec. 3. View our must-have donations and register to make your Bid for Equality. The future is in your bid! > > _______________________________________________ > Nfbnet-members-list mailing list > Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > List archives: From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 21:57:53 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 13:57:53 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Community-service] {Disarmed} Fwd: Service Takes Many Forms... Plus Batkid! References: <28D43B14-B2FC-4A59-85FF-82610455ACF1@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just sharing something that I forwarded from the community service discussion list. Interesting stuff, hope you enjoy. This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. Begin forwarded message: > From: Darian > Date: November 15, 2013 at 1:49:35 PM PST > To: Community Service Discussion List > Subject: [Community-service] {Disarmed} Fwd: Service Takes Many Forms... Plus Batkid! > Reply-To: Community Service Discussion List > > > > This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: "National Service Press Office" >> Date: November 15, 2013 at 1:31:41 PM PST >> To: ds94124 at aol.com >> Subject: Service Takes Many Forms... Plus Batkid! >> Reply-To: pressoffice at delivery.nationalservice.gov >> >> >> Having trouble viewing this email? View it as a Web page. >> >> The national service family is saddened by the tragic loss of life and devastation resulting from Super Typhoon Haiyan in the Philippines. We are grateful to the international organizations and agencies engaged in the relief effort. We encourage you to learn more about how you can help. >> >> >> Dear Colleagues and Communicators, >> Service to country takes many forms. For some of our young people, it means shouldering a rifle or climbing into a cockpit. For others, it means helping a child graduate, assisting the jobless, or rebuilding after a natural disaster. Read on to see how we are fostering the connection between military service and national service: >> Veterans Day >> AmeriCorps Director Bill Basl joined Rep. Tammy Duckworth, an Iraq War veteran, and local leaders this week at the inaugural opening of a Chicago food pantry at the Jesse Brown VA Medical Center. TaQuoya Kennedy, an Air Force veteran serving in AmeriCorps, is mobilizing volunteers for this effort. Meanwhile, David Gosling, an AmeriCorps VISTA member and Army veteran, attended a special White House breakfast to honor those who have given so much. >> Looking Ahead >> CEO Wendy Spencer will join Gen. Stanley McChrystal on Tuesday to celebrate the graduating class of AmeriCorps NCCC FEMA Corps members in Sacramento. AmeriCorps NCCC was inspired by the best principles of the Civilian Conservation Corps and the military, and we are proud to honor the tradition of service. Meanwhile, Sacramento's incoming AmeriCorps NCCC class was recently welcomed to campus, where they formed a giant "XX" (above) to rep their year of service - the 20th anniversary of AmeriCorps. >> Lastly -- stay tuned later today for an exciting announcement about mayors and national service! >> Thank you and have a great weekend, >> The External Affairs Team >> >> AmeriCorps Hearts Batkid: A team of FEMA Corps members shows love to Batkid - the San Francisco five-year old whose Make-A-Wish dream is coming true thanks to thousands of volunteers. >> National Service in the News >> AmeriCorps >> Parkway grad gives back through AmeriCorps program >> St. Louis Jewish Light (MO), November 13, 2013 >> Not only is 22-year-old Ben Rubin living in the city of his dreams, but the 2009 Parkway Central graduate also spends every day educating kids in underperforming schools. Rubin has taken a job at Chicago-based City Year, an AmeriCorps program that places young educators in underperforming schools to help at-risk students. The ultimate goal is curb the current national dropout crisis. >> >> AmeriCorps NCCC >> NCCC volunteers roll up sleeves at Fort Verde >> The Bugle (AZ), November 14, 2013 >> Nicole Armstrong-Best describes the AmeriCorps NCCC program as a domestic Peace Corps. "Not only do state and local governments and nonprofits - like Habitat for Humanity - get much needed help, but these young people get a detailed understanding of community service and the needs out there," Armstrong-Best said. >> >> AmeriCorps VISTA >> Volunteer's goal: Healthful eating >> Portage Daily Register (WI), November 10, 2013 >> Megan Evans, a recent graduate of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, is two months into her one-year term as an AmeriCorps VISTA member. She’s working under the auspices of the University of Wisconsin-Extension Columbia County, but her mission – promoting healthy eating habits – will take her to places such as grocery store aisles, the Portage Public Library, Head Start and area schools. >> >> Senior Corps >> "SHIP" is helping others with Medicare plan >> KJCT-TV (CO), November 14, 2013 >> Since open enrollment for Medicare started in October 15 nearly 40 people came to SHIP for help. There's only a few short weeks left to review your coverage and make changes before the December 7 deadline. SHIP is affiliated with RSVP, an organization that offers volunteer opportunities for senior citizens. Wednesday's event was held at US Bank's lower level where professional counselors were there to answer questions and provide resources. >> Boys & Girls Clubs are fun places to make good choices >> OregonLive.com (OR), November 7, 2013 >> Joe Mahoney, known as “Grandpa Joe,” started volunteering this summer, after helping in schools for 12 years through the Foster Grandparent Program. With literacy as his goal, he’s working with two brothers who are behind on their reading. The Boys & Girls Clubs focus on collective learning and career development, and providing structure outside school. Kids at the Blazers Club also participate in programs in the arts room, tech room, literacy room, teen room, gym and games room or get homework help. >> West seniors reunite over six months after explosion >> KXXV-TV (TX), November 11, 2013 >> More than six months after the fertilizer plant explosion in West, former seniors of a destroyed rest home are reunited. The Retired and Senior Volunteer Program, which has aided in over 80 other West events, helped make the reunion happen. The Atrium in North Waco hosted the event where former West New Haven Rest Home residents were brought. Since the explosion the seniors have be scattered across Central Texas. >> >> Social Innovation Fund >> An Important New Task for the U.S. Government >> Forbes (NY), November 4, 2013 >> The Social Innovation Fund (SIF) is showing real results and has changed the conversation about scale and impact. The SIF was created in 2010 at the Corporation for National and Community Service. The program leverages public and private resources to identify the most promising community solutions and help scale them. >> >> National Service Blog >> Profiles in Service: Army Veteran Annette Parker >> NationalService.gov, November 10, 2013 >> After that chance meeting, Annette embarked on a 23-year career in the U.S. Army. Now she uses the lessons she learned in the military in her current work as a volunteer with Senior Corps RSVP, one of the largest volunteer networks in the country for people age 55 and older. As part of RSVP’s Vets Driving Vets Initiative in Brevard County, FL, Annette has volunteered more than 200 hours and driven more than 2,000 miles in the past year to help those in need. >> >> Questions? Contact Us SUBSCRIBER SERVICES: Manage Preferences Unsubscribe Help >> This service is provided to you at no charge by Corporation for National and Community Service. >> This email was sent to ds94124 at aol.com using GovDelivery, on behalf of: Corporation for National & Community Service · 1201 New York Avenue, NW · Washington, DC 20525 · (202) 606- 5000 · (800) 833-3722 >> > _______________________________________________ > Community-service mailing list > Community-service at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/community-service_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Community-service: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/community-service_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 15 22:15:40 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:15:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy References: Message-ID: <001401cee250$38aa77c0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Brigit and everyone,] This is a classic case for income diversification. Many whom we know developed additional income besides their regular job so they can meet their expenses and have another string to their bow due to the state of the job market. They also did it for their families.It discuss me when I hear that people don't want to create additional income due to their children, etc. One person's excuses for not creating additional income to supplement that from their job is another person's reason for doing so. We see this over and over again. Folks would be advised to smell the opportunities instead of the problems. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 1:57 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy Joe, I agree with you to an extent, but in a way, you're over simplify this situation yourself. First, disabled or not, employment is difficult to come by right now. Yes, there are jobs, but not many, and depending on your qualifications, you may or not be considered. My husband works full-time but hopes to find a better job with better benefits. My son and I can't be on his work insurance because it would cost over half of my husband's paycheck to do so. He's also a full-time student. He's searched relentlessly for new employment, applying for all and any job. Most employers keep telling him he's over-qualified since he has a degree already with 15 years of work experience. Some places haven't given him the time of day. A couple of places were very interested until they found out he was blind. One employer even bluntly asked during the interview how my husbanded expected to work as a blind person. So applying for jobs and being motivated doesn't always yield results. And, unlike like many of you, he has a family to factor into the equation. I also have my degree, but I haven't worked for ten years because first I was very sick, which caused me to lose my sight. Then I was in training then got married and went back to school. I was lucky and was able to go to school full-time. Then I had a baby, and with the cost of daycare, it makes more sense for me to be a stay-at-home mom, plus my son was very sick when he was born. He's fine now, but he spent six weeks in the NICU, and when we finally brought him home, he wasn't able to go out much to make sure he didn't get sick. So, my point is that employers don't want to give me the time of day. Also, most employers won't allow you to provide software like JAWS or Window Eyes. In our experience, employers won't let us do this; they claim they have to purchase it. My husband has offered to supply JAWS but so far, employers won't let him do it. So your argument of supplying accommodations on your own isn't always a valid one. And blaming the economy doesn't mean we are claiming it's specific to blind people; it's anyone seeking employment regardless of a disability. And all Minh is pointing out is that employers still hold those negative perceptions of blind people, and many will hire a non-disabled person over the disabled person, especially if a lot of accommodations are necessary. This is not to say blind people are less qualified, but that employers may think this. You're very idealistic, but at the end of the day, this is a complicated situation. The economy is bad for anyone; it has nothing to do with blindness. You can have the best blindness training possible, the best college degree, loads of work experience and still not be hired. You can apply for job after job, regardless of what that job is and still not find one. Bridgit Message: 16 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:16:02 -0500 From: "Joe" To: "'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Message-ID: <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tyler, An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations if we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a blind person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses associated with creating an accessible working environment. I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living with parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of our generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to job interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the same? I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people are seen in a negative light for having a disability. You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got the job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient card to play when no other arguments hold water. I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always a piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether we are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 15 22:28:39 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:28:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy In-Reply-To: <001401cee250$38aa77c0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> References: <001401cee250$38aa77c0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Message-ID: <5286A017.9030702@tysdomain.com> I have a thought. Rather than trashing these people because they are unable to work, why don't you offer some advice as to how to fix it. You mention this we--I'm sure two people could make a world of difference. You could consider climbing down off your high horse and mingling with the rest of us lowly unworking peasants long enough to share some of your vast wisdom with us, could you not? The fact that you are "disgusted" by Bridget's situation says plenty here without my two cents, but I figured I'd throw it in anyway. On 11/15/2013 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: > Hello Brigit and everyone,] > > This is a classic case for income diversification. Many whom we know > developed additional income besides their regular job so they can meet their > expenses and have another string to their bow due to the state of the job > market. They also did it for their families.It discuss me when I hear that > people don't want to create additional income due to their children, etc. > One person's excuses for not creating additional income to supplement that > from their job is another person's reason for doing so. We see this over and > over again. Folks would be advised to smell the opportunities instead of the > problems. > > Peter Donahue > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 1:57 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy > > > Joe, > > I agree with you to an extent, but in a way, you're over simplify this > situation yourself. > > First, disabled or not, employment is difficult to come by right now. > Yes, there are jobs, but not many, and depending on your qualifications, > you may or not be considered. > > My husband works full-time but hopes to find a better job with better > benefits. My son and I can't be on his work insurance because it would > cost over half of my husband's paycheck to do so. He's also a full-time > student. He's searched relentlessly for new employment, applying for all > and any job. Most employers keep telling him he's over-qualified since > he has a degree already with 15 years of work experience. Some places > haven't given him the time of day. A couple of places were very > interested until they found out he was blind. One employer even bluntly > asked during the interview how my husbanded expected to work as a blind > person. So applying for jobs and being motivated doesn't always yield > results. And, unlike like many of you, he has a family to factor into > the equation. > > I also have my degree, but I haven't worked for ten years because first > I was very sick, which caused me to lose my sight. Then I was in > training then got married and went back to school. I was lucky and was > able to go to school full-time. Then I had a baby, and with the cost of > daycare, it makes more sense for me to be a stay-at-home mom, plus my > son was very sick when he was born. He's fine now, but he spent six > weeks in the NICU, and when we finally brought him home, he wasn't able > to go out much to make sure he didn't get sick. So, my point is that > employers don't want to give me the time of day. > > Also, most employers won't allow you to provide software like JAWS or > Window Eyes. In our experience, employers won't let us do this; they > claim they have to purchase it. My husband has offered to supply JAWS > but so far, employers won't let him do it. So your argument of supplying > accommodations on your own isn't always a valid one. > > And blaming the economy doesn't mean we are claiming it's specific to > blind people; it's anyone seeking employment regardless of a disability. > And all Minh is pointing out is that employers still hold those negative > perceptions of blind people, and many will hire a non-disabled person > over the disabled person, especially if a lot of accommodations are > necessary. This is not to say blind people are less qualified, but that > employers may think this. > > You're very idealistic, but at the end of the day, this is a complicated > situation. The economy is bad for anyone; it has nothing to do with > blindness. You can have the best blindness training possible, the best > college degree, loads of work experience and still not be hired. You can > apply for job after job, regardless of what that job is and still not > find one. > > Bridgit > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:16:02 -0500 > From: "Joe" > To: "'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS'" > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > Message-ID: <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Tyler, > > An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations > if > we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. > In > fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a > blind > person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. > Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses > associated with creating an accessible working environment. > > I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living > with > parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of > our > generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to > job > interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the > same? > I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people > are > seen in a negative light for having a disability. > > You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got > the > job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can > compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this > convenient > card to play when no other arguments hold water. > > I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said > the > economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is > always a > piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop > hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent > unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether > we > are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Nov 15 22:38:09 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 14:38:09 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Darian, Well, although we know we're usually not amazing as far as we're concerned, a fact remains we are indeed, different and go about things in a different way. that, we can be sure of. What I do in such situations is, point out that no, we are not so focused on ocularly seeing that we don't notice things we hear, smell and touch. Perhaps, remove yourself from the equasion since, I imagine, ol' Sighty cares not. He just finds you amazing and it really, in my view, is not our place as blinks to try changing the way he thinks. DoDo you dig it? for today, Car: 408-209-3239the person telling us has a low expectation of blind people. > When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are > not amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you > or do you not find yourself being offended by the statement? > > Darian >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From andrewjedg at gmail.com Fri Nov 15 22:55:49 2013 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 17:55:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy In-Reply-To: <5286A017.9030702@tysdomain.com> References: <001401cee250$38aa77c0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <5286A017.9030702@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: There are also some people not all I must say but just some in the blind community who just sit back and just complaine and things about all the problems on Skype and things I am not saying I have not done it which I have but in last few weeks or last while I been seeing this problem in the blind community where they feel they can complaine all they want yet don't step out to make the change for themselves when it comes to something like employment or whaever it might be. I am just saying this because I have ran into some of these type of people. I done it myself though but I am trying to find out what needs to be found out as far as things for me goes I been doing that over last few weeks. On 11/15/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > I have a thought. Rather than trashing these people because they are > unable to work, why don't you offer some advice as to how to fix it. You > mention this we--I'm sure two people could make a world of difference. > You could consider climbing down off your high horse and mingling with > the rest of us lowly unworking peasants long enough to share some of > your vast wisdom with us, could you not? > > The fact that you are "disgusted" by Bridget's situation says plenty > here without my two cents, but I figured I'd throw it in anyway. > On 11/15/2013 5:15 PM, Peter Donahue wrote: >> Hello Brigit and everyone,] >> >> This is a classic case for income diversification. Many whom we know >> developed additional income besides their regular job so they can meet >> their >> expenses and have another string to their bow due to the state of the job >> market. They also did it for their families.It discuss me when I hear >> that >> people don't want to create additional income due to their children, etc. >> One person's excuses for not creating additional income to supplement >> that >> from their job is another person's reason for doing so. We see this over >> and >> over again. Folks would be advised to smell the opportunities instead of >> the >> problems. >> >> Peter Donahue >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 1:57 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy >> >> >> Joe, >> >> I agree with you to an extent, but in a way, you're over simplify this >> situation yourself. >> >> First, disabled or not, employment is difficult to come by right now. >> Yes, there are jobs, but not many, and depending on your qualifications, >> you may or not be considered. >> >> My husband works full-time but hopes to find a better job with better >> benefits. My son and I can't be on his work insurance because it would >> cost over half of my husband's paycheck to do so. He's also a full-time >> student. He's searched relentlessly for new employment, applying for all >> and any job. Most employers keep telling him he's over-qualified since >> he has a degree already with 15 years of work experience. Some places >> haven't given him the time of day. A couple of places were very >> interested until they found out he was blind. One employer even bluntly >> asked during the interview how my husbanded expected to work as a blind >> person. So applying for jobs and being motivated doesn't always yield >> results. And, unlike like many of you, he has a family to factor into >> the equation. >> >> I also have my degree, but I haven't worked for ten years because first >> I was very sick, which caused me to lose my sight. Then I was in >> training then got married and went back to school. I was lucky and was >> able to go to school full-time. Then I had a baby, and with the cost of >> daycare, it makes more sense for me to be a stay-at-home mom, plus my >> son was very sick when he was born. He's fine now, but he spent six >> weeks in the NICU, and when we finally brought him home, he wasn't able >> to go out much to make sure he didn't get sick. So, my point is that >> employers don't want to give me the time of day. >> >> Also, most employers won't allow you to provide software like JAWS or >> Window Eyes. In our experience, employers won't let us do this; they >> claim they have to purchase it. My husband has offered to supply JAWS >> but so far, employers won't let him do it. So your argument of supplying >> accommodations on your own isn't always a valid one. >> >> And blaming the economy doesn't mean we are claiming it's specific to >> blind people; it's anyone seeking employment regardless of a disability. >> And all Minh is pointing out is that employers still hold those negative >> perceptions of blind people, and many will hire a non-disabled person >> over the disabled person, especially if a lot of accommodations are >> necessary. This is not to say blind people are less qualified, but that >> employers may think this. >> >> You're very idealistic, but at the end of the day, this is a complicated >> situation. The economy is bad for anyone; it has nothing to do with >> blindness. You can have the best blindness training possible, the best >> college degree, loads of work experience and still not be hired. You can >> apply for job after job, regardless of what that job is and still not >> find one. >> >> Bridgit >> >> Message: 16 >> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 22:16:02 -0500 >> From: "Joe" >> To: "'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS'" >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >> Message-ID: <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Tyler, >> >> An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations >> if >> we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. >> In >> fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a >> blind >> person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. >> Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses >> associated with creating an accessible working environment. >> >> I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living >> with >> parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of >> our >> generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to >> job >> interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the >> same? >> I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people >> are >> seen in a negative light for having a disability. >> >> You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got >> the >> job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can >> compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this >> convenient >> card to play when no other arguments hold water. >> >> I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said >> the >> economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is >> always a >> piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop >> hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent >> unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether >> we >> are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Fri Nov 15 22:56:36 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 14:56:36 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" In-Reply-To: References: <00b201cee225$8f9c3710$aed4a530$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Sandra, and everybody, Yes, if the situation happens not to afford an opportunity to go into all that technical crap, just graciously accept, nowing it is what they need to hear. It's okay. :25 AM 11/15/2013, Sandra Gayer wrote: >In general, it's best to just accept it with good grace. > >Very best wishes, >Sandra. > >On 11/15/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > > I just compliment them on their willingness to admit a self-evident > > truth, that of my awesomeness! Lol. I kid! > > I think it depends on the context. If I'm walking, and someone says > > I'm amazing, and if I have time, I'll ask why? If they tell me because > > I can walk, I point out that they can to. If they say that I can > > almost run in six-inch heels, when the situation calls for it, I'll > > say, how much practice I've had. I suppose it's nice to be inspiring > > to people, but I simply cannot see myself as inspiring, when all I'm > > doing is walking. > > I think that learning to take compliments is an important and useful > > skill to have. I find that I'm a lot more comfortable with criticism > > than I am with compliments of any type. And part of that is that I > > want to be seen holistically, and not have my blindness be the thing > > which people focus on. And that's why I insist and making people think > > through what they say if I have the time. As blind people, we are just > > people. And typically, you don't go around telling people they are > > amazing just when you see them walking down the street. For all they > > know, I'm a horrible human being, who hates puppies, bunnies and > > penguins. Oh, and ducks. How could anyone hate ducks? > > All that is to say, that I agree, that when you are being told you > > are amazing, and you are not aware of having just made a display of > > your awesomenss, aside from gracing the universe with your presence, > > it is a good conversation starter, and educational opportunity. > > Whether its fashion or blindness you choose to educate on, is up to > > you. > > > > Mary > > > > On 11/15/13, Joe wrote: > >> Darian, > >> > >> You are not amazing. Does that help you feel better? LOL I think Tyler's > >> response had the right of it. To be honest, I shrug off the compliment, > >> deflect it with a compliment about something the person does better than > >> I > >> do, and move on. In a world where there are maybe not enough good things > >> said about people, I almost think it's nice that people bother to say > >> that > >> anyone is amazing at all. As for you sir, no one can motivate people to > >> community service like you can, so you just keep on being your amazing > >> self > >> and never mind the rest. > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith > >> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 11:42 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: [nabs-l] "you are amazing" > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I am sure that all of us have had someone tell us that we are > >> amazing > >> at one time or another. > >> Many times we are convinced this is because the person telling us > >> has > >> a > >> low expectation of blind people. > >> When we are convinced of this, how do we communicate that we are not > >> amazing, do this with a positive attitude, and finally do you or do you > >> not > >> find yourself being offended by the statement? > >> > >> Darian > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Mary Fernandez > > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > > feel." > > — > > Maya Angelou > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sandragayer7%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Soprano Singer > www.sandragayer.com > >Broadcast Presenter > >www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Sat Nov 16 04:15:09 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 23:15:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <52865AA0.5010908@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com> <52865AA0.5010908@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <00a201cee282$7061da50$51258ef0$@gmail.com> Tyler, The difficulty in finding clients for your web development skills is a marketing issue, not a general employment concern. I'm not belittling your frustration of finding customers, but hustling for clients is part of the nature of an entrepreneur, regardless of whether you set up a full business or just sell yourself. Outside of Craigslist, which I would never recommend because of their general decline where service advertisement is concerned, I would look into Elance and Odesk. You'll need to be careful with clients interested in low bids over top talent, but that's going to be true no matter what website forum you set up shop. You'll need to advertise across social networks, pick up the phone and make cold calls, and yes, in some cases you'll need to volunteer at first to prove your worth before someone hires you. That's how I picked up Serotek as a client. The crazy thing is that even after you secure new business, you still need to devote time to marketing for more, because you never know when the safety net will drop out from under you. I see you've set up a website, but it does nothing to motivate me to hire you as a developer. That's not a personal slam. It's candid feedback from a prospective customer. Finding business is a full-time job, and I understand if balancing that with school is problematic at this stage of your life. But, especially in your high demand field, more skill really does mean more job opportunities. Don't let the stupid media landscape of grim job statistics discourage you from pushing the kind of service you say you're qualified to deliver. It's not what the rest of the economy is up to. It's about what Tyler can specifically help my company do better. Remember, blind people were finding and keeping jobs long before we had today's technological conveniences. The NFB operation began with a dozen blind people working with far less at our disposal, and while some would argue the NFB is different because it's a social cause, it's because it was a social cause that it took grit and elbow grease to make it get off the ground. A nonprofit is a business like any other, and if our past leaders had just crossed their arms and said, "Well, crap, I guess that's that," we would have never seen the organization we have today. Before I move onto Bridgit, let me ask you something in all sincerity. I've now written half a dozen posts with optimistic encouragement and suggestions. You may not like my viewpoint, but I think I've done a fair job of backing up my assertions. What's your alternative? All I've read from you is that the economy sucks, that jobs are too hard to get and that I'm basically delusional for thinking anything different. Never mind that I and many others are the evidence that disprove your gloom and doom way of thinking. Surely you are not suggesting we are anomalies. So, tell us, what would you suggest to the struggling unemployed person who is desperate for a job? Are you basically saying to give up and it sucks to be you? If you offer no alternative, you're basically advocating for the status quo, and you've already said the status quo is no good. So, I am genuinely confused by your logic. Bridgit, First, let's touch on the point about the number of jobs. It would be great if all the jobs we wanted were available where we live. I think we have to reach a point where it makes sense to question whether the area we live in is open to the kind of qualifications I can bring to the market. For example, I would not live in Maine and hope to easily break into screen writing, nor would it be as feasible for me to be a rising star on Wall Street while living in Oklahoma. Is it possible? Anything's possible, but certain regions of the country are better suited for my skills than others. Grant writing is one service I offer as part of my side business, and I live in the perfect place for it given the highest concentration of nonprofits in the country. The persistent evolution of the Internet of things will help bridge some of these gaps, but until our generation fully takes over the job market, we will still have to fight against outdated views that people need to be in a traditional office to get the work done. Second, to your point about qualifications, it makes sense to think through what it is we're studying in school before investing in it. Liberal arts aren't going to make people that marketable outside of academic circles, and that's coming from a guy who may as well have graduated with a liberal arts degree. If the qualifications are severely restricting the kind of jobs I can get, something's wrong with what I studied. That's why I'm a big proponent of taking a gap year to figure out yourself and what it is you're really passionate about before spending thousands of dollars in a very expensive education program. Next, employers are humans just like we are. Their reactions are going to run a diverse range, but job hunting is a numbers game. There's nothing we can do to eliminate people who take a dim view of blind people, and let's be honest. Their views would not change even if the economy was booming. If they did not discriminate against me for being blind, they might discriminate against me for being Hispanic, male, immigrant, tall, etc. The only cold comfort I can offer is keep applying or move to an area with more open minds. Finding a job after spending years as a stay-at-home parent is not easy, nor is it fair. A stay-at-home mom knows more about running a company than the CEO given her responsibilities of time management, budgeting, planning and executing, but you know, the more I think about these qualities, the more they could make for a compelling resume. You're a great writer. Something tells me you more than others will find creative ways of conveying your talents. Not every employer will bite, but the one that does will be an awesome match. And, generally speaking to the list, I guess that's all I have. There is such a thing is diminishing returns for people who refuse to listen to something other than the tired arguments that it's the fault of the economy or my disability or the next-door neighbor. I am accused of being too idealistic, but when real unemployment strikes, it's very easy to begin questioning your self-worth. When I'm down in the dumps and wondering if I stumbled down the wrong path in life, I would personally rather here of how I might just make my passion work instead of constant reminders that we have it so bad for being blind and for having to compete against so many applicants. To each his own. Me, there's a company I've been eager to work for these past few years. I believe next year I'll make a resolution to get off my ass and earn at least a part-time contract there. Statistics be damned. They'd be lucky to have me working for them. Arrogant? Absolutely, but it's one of many possible ways to separating the great from the good. The key is figuring out the approach that makes you better. To your success, Joe From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sat Nov 16 04:41:56 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi Moerke) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 22:41:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <5285A666.5000207@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> <007701cee1b1$044fc240$0cef46c0$@gmail.com> <52859AAE.9020905@tysdomain.com> <5285A666.5000207@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Totally off the subject, if people are looking for a highly transferable and very inexpensive screenreader, they might have a look into system access. Contrary to popular belief, system access works really well in a professional setting. I use it exclusively at work and find that it does better than JAWS and many of my professional tasks. I also use the system access at home. I don't have system access installed on my work computer, but I do use the USB option.Serotek has all kinds of payment options that make system access very affordable for most people. Nothing else, you can use the free version online. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 14, 2013, at 10:43 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > Hello Arielle: > I feel like I've hashed out my points enough on either side to not warrent another response regarding those facts. I do, however have some points. > > First, the screenreader licenses (specifically Jaws) prohibits us from transfering licenses over to a professional system, as they would like businesses to buy licenses. This means that if you should get a job you will have one (and only one) computer you have access to, apart from your personal computer if you stay within the bounds of the license regarding the two computers you are allowed to run the software on. You are also not supposed to run the software simoltaniously. While taking your own laptop to work is also a viable solution, many corporations do not allow personal computers on to their network for a ton of reasons--the biggest being security. For example, I could not go to a software development firm and bring my laptop along generally. > > Many of us are writing these emails with screen readers, but I think it's safe to say Uncle Sam has helped purchase our readers for us, which may or may not happen when you get a job, depending on where you are located. >> On 11/14/2013 11:20 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> As usual, I believe that both extremes being advocated here are >> incomplete explanations, and unnecessarily hostile to one another. The >> best and most accurate position in my view is one midway between >> them. >> >> First of all, Joe makes a good practical point about accommodations. >> All of us are typing to this list using some kind of screen access >> software that we presumably either own, or which comes built-in on our >> computers if we are using Macs. Software we own is transferrable to a >> work computer at no cost. Even if you received JAWS from rehab, I >> believe you should still be able to run it on a work computer. At the >> very least anybody can use JAWS in demo mode for free on a work >> computer. This allows us to perform many computer jobs without costing >> the employer a cent. If eventually we need to upgrade, we can then >> decide whether to buy the upgrade out of pocket or ask the employer >> for it as an accommodation, but by that point we should have earned >> enough money from working at the job to be able to have options there. >> Now if the software required for the job isn't compatible with screen >> readers, that's a much more complicated issue, but even then there are >> often free or low-cost work-arounds such as cleverly collaborating >> with sighted colleagues etc. While some jobs do require >> accommodations, many don't and many that do only require very >> inexpensive ones. So we shouldn't go in assuming that we are more >> expensive to hire than our sighted competitors. I plan to request no >> accommodations for the professor and researcher jobs I am applying for >> should I be interviewed. If the employer wants to offer me something, >> great, but I know all my current technology is transferrable to a new >> job situation. >> Of course employers might not see it that way, and we as a group do >> face a higher rate of discrimination than our sighted colleagues do. I >> think what Joe is saying is that although we as a group do face >> disadvantages on average in some fields, we aren't disadvantaged in >> all fields and not all of us as individuals automatically experience >> disadvantage. Those of us with good skills and good networking may >> find ourselves in a better position for our chosen job field than >> someone sighted who has less skills or less networking. >> >> My general philosophy is to do the best I can with what I have and the >> situation I am in. We all sometimes face circumstances beyond our >> control that hurt us, such as the economy and negative attitudes among >> employers. While it is appropriate to acknowledge that barriers exist, >> it is also appropriate to identify what we can control and make the >> most of that. I think "blaming" the economy implies more than just >> acknowledging that it is a problem, but actually giving up power over >> things we can control such as skill building and taking the initiative >> to contact employers. I don't think many blind people are actually >> giving up their power like that and I don't think we should assume >> that because someone is unemployed it's because they are not trying >> hard enough. However, I also don't think Joe is painting an >> unrealistic picture. While there may be a surplus of applicants for >> some jobs, each one of us only needs to find one job. Not all of us >> will find jobs right away or the jobs we necessarily want the most, >> but I think that with creativity and persistence each one of us is >> capable of attaining that goal. >> >> I think the sarcasm and accusation I am seeing on both sides of this >> argument are misplaced. We are here to build each other up and >> encourage each other to do the best we can in the situations we are >> in. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >>> On 11/14/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>> Joe: >>> >>> first, I'd love to hear where you live where money and job skills and >>> opportunities rain from the skies. It's pretty easy to talk about >>> "fronting the expenses," but most people who do graduate from college >>> have already taken out loan upon loan to graduate with. Subsiding on >>> raman, cheep beer and cheep pizza does not exactly mean people can >>> afford to "front the money" for an accessible environment. >>> >>> Second, my comments about people living with their parents does not >>> justify our ability (or lack there of, as you say) to get a job. I'm >>> just trying to point out that the economy is pretty rough right now, >>> which keeps competition up. >>> >>> Congrats on your job, congrats on your constant skill sharpening. Now we >>> all just need to learn to be just like you, and we will live full lives >>> with 5 jobs, 3 businesses and with no worries in the world! >>> >>>> On 11/14/2013 10:16 PM, Joe wrote: >>>> Tyler, >>>> >>>> An employer would not need to pay hundreds of dollars for accommodations >>>> if >>>> we took it upon ourselves to come into the job with our own resources. In >>>> fact, that's a good way to minimize the perceived burden of hiring a >>>> blind >>>> person. It's not altogether impossible to keep up our software licenses. >>>> Anyone who goes into business for themselves has to front the expenses >>>> associated with creating an accessible working environment. >>>> >>>> I don't buy the argument that because many college graduates are living >>>> with >>>> parents blind people should feel justified in being unemployed. A lot of >>>> our >>>> generation is also doing ridiculous things like taking parents along to >>>> job >>>> interviews. Does that mean we as blind people should start doing the >>>> same? >>>> I'd like to see how well that bodes for the argument that blind people >>>> are >>>> seen in a negative light for having a disability. >>>> >>>> You say that while I'm keeping my skills sharp so are they. Okay, I got >>>> the >>>> job. They didn't. You can't have it both ways. Either blind people can >>>> compete, or they can't. It seems like the economy becomes this convenient >>>> card to play when no other arguments hold water. >>>> >>>> I'm not entirely sure what it is I'm in denial about. I've never said the >>>> economy couldn't use improvement. I've never said finding a job is always >>>> a >>>> piece of cake. All I've said is that it would be great if we could stop >>>> hanging our hat on the economy as a reason to explain the persistent >>>> unemployment among blind people, because the jobs are out there. Whether >>>> we >>>> are ready or qualified to compete for them is another story altogether. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 9:53 PM >>>> To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy >>>> >>>> Joe: >>>> Minh's point was just this: >>>> >>>> There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see >>>> college >>>> graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are >>>> qualified >>>> and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, >>>> so >>>> are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think >>>> employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who >>>> they >>>> are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or >>>> are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can >>>> pay >>>> lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they >>>> don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means >>>> it's >>>> bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell >>>> out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when >>>> you >>>> can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound >>>> like >>>> you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh >>>> never >>>> said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical >>>> reasons >>>> behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the >>>> facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of >>>> the >>>> most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. >>>> It >>>> may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did >>>> nothing. >>>>> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >>>>> Tyler, >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >>>>> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with >>>>> a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business >>>>> running, because although government jobs are said to be secure, >>>>> nothing is guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still >>>>> had income to fall back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six >>>>> months of savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? >>>>> Because I have kept my skills up to date, because I have kept a fair >>>>> professional network intact, and because I understand the ability to >>>>> create positions for myself through the consulting capacity that a lot >>>>> of Americans pursued after the economic decline several years ago. I >>>>> say that in hopes people will be angered enough to try new strategies >>>>> to find their next job. Remember it's usually the first one that's the >>>>> toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily increase his >>>>> income, >>>> you can do it better. >>>>> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are >>>>> jobs to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one >>>>> of quantity without fully looking at quality. The people who get >>>>> chosen are the ones who make the cut, and that's true no matter the >>>>> condition of the economy. The concern should not be the sheer number >>>>> of people competing for the jobs you wish you had. It's what you've >>>>> been doing to separate yourself from those numbers. >>>>> >>>>> Ashley, >>>>> >>>>> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During >>>>> that year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities >>>>> and learned a valuable skill that played a key role in landing my >>>>> first real job. Anything you can do to fill your resume is viewed >>>> positively. >>>>> Minh, >>>>> >>>>> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >>>>> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we >>>>> as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to >>>>> people who need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes >>>>> no matter what we do, we will always be viewed as second class >>>>> citizens when compared to our sighted peers. An employer is not >>>>> thinking about the state of the economy when she is looking to hire >>>>> someone to fill a role. All she cares about is finding the right >>>>> person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to need >>>>> accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or >>>>> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes >>>> things significantly worse for us. >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>> com >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that >>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >>> dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>> > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > From jim.hulme at gmail.com Sat Nov 16 05:02:51 2013 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 00:02:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act In-Reply-To: <8A4BBC23-FCD3-45DF-87E3-FDA309A80E6D@gmail.com> References: <8A4BBC23-FCD3-45DF-87E3-FDA309A80E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am greatly filled with happiness that the TEACH ACT has been passed. However, I cannot open any of the fuile attachments. Can you please try resending them in Adobe pdf please?? I guess I can now continue with my collegiate studies now that this act was passed by senators in government. Jimmy Hulme jim.hulme at gmail.com On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Laurel and Stockard < laurel.stockard at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "McLarney, Lauren" (by way of David Andrews < > dandrews at visi.com>) > > Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility > in College and Higher Education Act > > Date: November 15, 2013 at 2:09:20 PM CST > > To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > > > > Dear Fellow Federationists, > > > > I am proud to say that today after ten months of anticipation; > Congressman Tom Petri introduced the Technology, Education and > Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act (HR 3505)! The TEACH Act > creates long-overdue accessibility guidelines for electronic instructional > materials and related information technologies used by institutions of > higher education. > > > > The law currently prohibits the use of inaccessible technology in the > classroom because it is a form of discrimination that leaves blind students > behind, and yet the overwhelming majority of digital instructional material > is unusable by blind students. The guidelines created by the TEACH Act will > give direction for manufacturers of educational technology to increase > commercial availability of accessible materials, a prescription for > institutions of higher education for how to best serve their disabled > students and meet their legal obligations, and a promise that all students, > disabled or not, will have equal access to high-quality education in the > twenty-first century classroom. > > > > Blind people have been waiting for at least five years (much more, in > reality) to see something done about the needless burdens blind college > students face because of inaccessible technology. With the introduction of > the TEACH Act, we are done waiting for the process of change to start. > > > > The creation of the TEACH Act was the result of a collaboration between > the National Federation of the Blind and the Association of American > Publishers. The introduction of the TEACH Act is the result of many months > of networking and nuanced language tangling. However, the passage of the > TEACH Act will solely be the result of the passion and power of the NFB. I > have heard from so many of you about how personal this issue is, and I am > always, always, always impressed at how willing and excited you all are to > get going. Now we can finally stop chomping at the bit and get started! The > advocacy for this bill will start with targeted meetings with Republicans > on the Education and Workforce Committee. The legislative directors in the > applicable states have already begun planning pre-Washington Seminar > conference calls. I urge the rest of you to reach out to your members of > Congress today, bringing this to their attention while it is still a brand > new bill, giving them background for your upcoming Washington Seminar > meetings, and even urging them to co-sponsor now. Please be advised that > this is a delicate political climate – all co-sponsors are welcome, but we > want this bill to be as bi-partisan as possible. > > > > The text of the bill and an updated fact sheet are attached. If you have > any questions, give me a ring at the National Center at 410.659.9314 ext. > 2207 or email me at lmclarney at nfb.org. I'm looking forward to working > with everyone to make this thing move! > > > > Lauren > > > > Lauren McLarney > > Government Affairs Specialist > > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > > 200 East Wells St. > > Baltimore, MD 21230 > > (410) 659 9314 ext. 2207 > > lmclarney at nfb.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Take the stress out of this year’s holiday shopping with NFB’s Bid for > Equality national online auction: Black Friday, Nov. 29, to Giving Tuesday, > Dec. 3. View our must-have donations and register to make your Bid for > Equality. The future is in your bid! > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Nfbnet-members-list mailing list > > Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > > List archives: < > http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nfbnet-members-list_nfbnet.org> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Nov 16 15:23:03 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:23:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act In-Reply-To: References: <8A4BBC23-FCD3-45DF-87E3-FDA309A80E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4672103019703408431@unknownmsgid> Jimmy, While I too am happy about the progress which has been made regarding the teach act, I want to point out that this was not an announcement that the bill has been passed. The bill has been introduced in the House of Representatives and will now be able to be considered for debate. It now must be passed by a committee of the house, then by the full house during floor debate, then by the Senate, and finally signed by the president before it becomes law. I am not saying that it's introduction is not a sign of progress. However, I am simply pointing out that we still have a long way to go before it becomes the law of the land. So, let us pool our resources together, do a little federation advocacy, and make this thing move the rest of the way to passage! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 16, 2013, at 12:03 AM, James Hulme wrote: > > I am greatly filled with happiness that the TEACH ACT has been passed. > However, I cannot open any of the fuile attachments. Can you please try > resending them in Adobe pdf please?? I guess I can now continue with my > collegiate studies now that this act was passed by senators in government. > > > Jimmy Hulme > jim.hulme at gmail.com > > > On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Laurel and Stockard < > laurel.stockard at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> From: "McLarney, Lauren" (by way of David Andrews < >> dandrews at visi.com>) >>> Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility >> in College and Higher Education Act >>> Date: November 15, 2013 at 2:09:20 PM CST >>> To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org >>> >>> Dear Fellow Federationists, >>> >>> I am proud to say that today after ten months of anticipation; >> Congressman Tom Petri introduced the Technology, Education and >> Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act (HR 3505)! The TEACH Act >> creates long-overdue accessibility guidelines for electronic instructional >> materials and related information technologies used by institutions of >> higher education. >>> >>> The law currently prohibits the use of inaccessible technology in the >> classroom because it is a form of discrimination that leaves blind students >> behind, and yet the overwhelming majority of digital instructional material >> is unusable by blind students. The guidelines created by the TEACH Act will >> give direction for manufacturers of educational technology to increase >> commercial availability of accessible materials, a prescription for >> institutions of higher education for how to best serve their disabled >> students and meet their legal obligations, and a promise that all students, >> disabled or not, will have equal access to high-quality education in the >> twenty-first century classroom. >>> >>> Blind people have been waiting for at least five years (much more, in >> reality) to see something done about the needless burdens blind college >> students face because of inaccessible technology. With the introduction of >> the TEACH Act, we are done waiting for the process of change to start. >>> >>> The creation of the TEACH Act was the result of a collaboration between >> the National Federation of the Blind and the Association of American >> Publishers. The introduction of the TEACH Act is the result of many months >> of networking and nuanced language tangling. However, the passage of the >> TEACH Act will solely be the result of the passion and power of the NFB. I >> have heard from so many of you about how personal this issue is, and I am >> always, always, always impressed at how willing and excited you all are to >> get going. Now we can finally stop chomping at the bit and get started! The >> advocacy for this bill will start with targeted meetings with Republicans >> on the Education and Workforce Committee. The legislative directors in the >> applicable states have already begun planning pre-Washington Seminar >> conference calls. I urge the rest of you to reach out to your members of >> Congress today, bringing this to their attention while it is still a brand >> new bill, giving them background for your upcoming Washington Seminar >> meetings, and even urging them to co-sponsor now. Please be advised that >> this is a delicate political climate – all co-sponsors are welcome, but we >> want this bill to be as bi-partisan as possible. >>> >>> The text of the bill and an updated fact sheet are attached. If you have >> any questions, give me a ring at the National Center at 410.659.9314 ext. >> 2207 or email me at lmclarney at nfb.org. I'm looking forward to working >> with everyone to make this thing move! >>> >>> Lauren >>> >>> Lauren McLarney >>> Government Affairs Specialist >>> NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND >>> 200 East Wells St. >>> Baltimore, MD 21230 >>> (410) 659 9314 ext. 2207 >>> lmclarney at nfb.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Take the stress out of this year’s holiday shopping with NFB’s Bid for >> Equality national online auction: Black Friday, Nov. 29, to Giving Tuesday, >> Dec. 3. View our must-have donations and register to make your Bid for >> Equality. The future is in your bid! >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Nfbnet-members-list mailing list >>> Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org >>> List archives: < >> http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nfbnet-members-list_nfbnet.org> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat Nov 16 18:02:31 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 10:02:31 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Reminder: your 2013-2014 National association of Blind Students Committees and their chairs. Message-ID: > Greetings fellow students! > > Just a reminder that if you have not found a NABS committee and would > like to do so, it is not too late. > Below please find the committees and the people chairing them. > 1. fundraising: Candice Chapman- chapman.candicel at gmail.com and > Cindy Bennett -clb5590 at gmail.com > 2. Student Slate: Karen Anderson - kea.anderson at gmail.com and Cody > Bair - codyjbair at yahoo.com > 3. Communications: Bre Brown - bre.brown24 at gmail.com and Gabe > Cazares -gcazares10 at gmail.com > 4. Membership: Justin Salisbury -PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu and Darian smith > – dsmithnfb at gmail.com. > Please be in touch with the listed chairs of the committee(s) you > wish to join, and they’ll be happy to help you get involved in the > work that is done to advance equal rights for blind students across > the country. > Remember that we all can make a difference and maximize our impact > when we work together. This is the idea of collective action. > > Yours in the movement, > Darian Darian Smith 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students dsmithnfb at gmail.com www.nabslink.org Follow the National Association of Blind Students on twitter: @nabslink > > Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further > Donate your car to the National Federation of the Blind today! > For more information, please visit: www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 From wmodnl at hotmail.com Sat Nov 16 19:36:27 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 14:36:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: I think, the other side to the argument is: Regardless of the economy, we always appear as a liability not an asset to companies large and small. Companies will always blame the economy, or our "costs" before hiring us. It is the fact of corporate America. They think with the pocket, not the fact that, we are probably harder loyal workers compared to most "normal" people. The average individual can not deal with, or handle seeing someone who is "different" in an office setting. Sent from my iPad > On Nov 14, 2013, at 9:54 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > Joe: > Minh's point was just this: > > There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see college graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are qualified and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your skills sharp, so are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, who do you think employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the blind guy who they are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on accomidating, or are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in line? They can pay lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right now, which means it's bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when you can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You sound like you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. No, Minh never said we are less able. She was just pointing out some of the logical reasons behind your point. you can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the facts of life. As to your jab about her mantality, she's probably one of the most active blind people I've met, so I don't think that's the case here. It may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did nothing. >> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: >> Tyler, >> >> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's >> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with a >> position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business running, >> because although government jobs are said to be secure, nothing is >> guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still had income to fall >> back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six months of savings to >> actively seek the next best position. Why? Because I have kept my skills up >> to date, because I have kept a fair professional network intact, and because >> I understand the ability to create positions for myself through the >> consulting capacity that a lot of Americans pursued after the economic >> decline several years ago. I say that in hopes people will be angered enough >> to try new strategies to find their next job. Remember it's usually the >> first one that's the toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can steadily >> increase his income, you can do it better. >> >> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are jobs >> to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one of quantity >> without fully looking at quality. The people who get chosen are the ones who >> make the cut, and that's true no matter the condition of the economy. The >> concern should not be the sheer number of people competing for the jobs you >> wish you had. It's what you've been doing to separate yourself from those >> numbers. >> >> Ashley, >> >> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During that >> year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities and learned a >> valuable skill that played a key role in landing my first real job. Anything >> you can do to fill your resume is viewed positively. >> >> Minh, >> >> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. >> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we as >> blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to people who >> need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes no matter what we >> do, we will always be viewed as second class citizens when compared to our >> sighted peers. An employer is not thinking about the state of the economy >> when she is looking to hire someone to fill a role. All she cares about is >> finding the right person to do the job she needs completed. We're going to >> need accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are competitive, or >> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes things >> significantly worse for us. >> >> Joe >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From laurel.stockard at gmail.com Sat Nov 16 20:38:41 2013 From: laurel.stockard at gmail.com (Laurel and Stockard) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 14:38:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act In-Reply-To: <4672103019703408431@unknownmsgid> References: <8A4BBC23-FCD3-45DF-87E3-FDA309A80E6D@gmail.com> <4672103019703408431@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Hey guys, I don't know anything about any attachments, I just forwarded this to the nabs list as I got it from the main nfb members list. I just figured there might be some people on here who don't get emails from the general nfb national mailing list, so I figured I'd forward this. Also, glad to see some of your thoughts on here. I wish this would have been law when I was in college, would have saved me much much heartbreak and trouble. I was actually forced out of my Russian minor because of inaccessible technology and a professor unwilling to work with me. I know it's not law yet, but I sure hope it passes. Laurel On Nov 16, 2013, at 9:23 AM, christopher nusbaum wrote: > Jimmy, > > While I too am happy about the progress which has been made regarding > the teach act, I want to point out that this was not an announcement > that the bill has been passed. The bill has been introduced in the > House of Representatives and will now be able to be considered for > debate. It now must be passed by a committee of the house, then by the > full house during floor debate, then by the Senate, and finally signed > by the president before it becomes law. I am not saying that it's > introduction is not a sign of progress. However, I am simply pointing > out that we still have a long way to go before it becomes the law of > the land. So, let us pool our resources together, do a little > federation advocacy, and make this thing move the rest of the way to > passage! > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 16, 2013, at 12:03 AM, James Hulme wrote: >> >> I am greatly filled with happiness that the TEACH ACT has been passed. >> However, I cannot open any of the fuile attachments. Can you please try >> resending them in Adobe pdf please?? I guess I can now continue with my >> collegiate studies now that this act was passed by senators in government. >> >> >> Jimmy Hulme >> jim.hulme at gmail.com >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Laurel and Stockard < >> laurel.stockard at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> From: "McLarney, Lauren" (by way of David Andrews < >>> dandrews at visi.com>) >>>> Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility >>> in College and Higher Education Act >>>> Date: November 15, 2013 at 2:09:20 PM CST >>>> To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org >>>> >>>> Dear Fellow Federationists, >>>> >>>> I am proud to say that today after ten months of anticipation; >>> Congressman Tom Petri introduced the Technology, Education and >>> Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act (HR 3505)! The TEACH Act >>> creates long-overdue accessibility guidelines for electronic instructional >>> materials and related information technologies used by institutions of >>> higher education. >>>> >>>> The law currently prohibits the use of inaccessible technology in the >>> classroom because it is a form of discrimination that leaves blind students >>> behind, and yet the overwhelming majority of digital instructional material >>> is unusable by blind students. The guidelines created by the TEACH Act will >>> give direction for manufacturers of educational technology to increase >>> commercial availability of accessible materials, a prescription for >>> institutions of higher education for how to best serve their disabled >>> students and meet their legal obligations, and a promise that all students, >>> disabled or not, will have equal access to high-quality education in the >>> twenty-first century classroom. >>>> >>>> Blind people have been waiting for at least five years (much more, in >>> reality) to see something done about the needless burdens blind college >>> students face because of inaccessible technology. With the introduction of >>> the TEACH Act, we are done waiting for the process of change to start. >>>> >>>> The creation of the TEACH Act was the result of a collaboration between >>> the National Federation of the Blind and the Association of American >>> Publishers. The introduction of the TEACH Act is the result of many months >>> of networking and nuanced language tangling. However, the passage of the >>> TEACH Act will solely be the result of the passion and power of the NFB. I >>> have heard from so many of you about how personal this issue is, and I am >>> always, always, always impressed at how willing and excited you all are to >>> get going. Now we can finally stop chomping at the bit and get started! The >>> advocacy for this bill will start with targeted meetings with Republicans >>> on the Education and Workforce Committee. The legislative directors in the >>> applicable states have already begun planning pre-Washington Seminar >>> conference calls. I urge the rest of you to reach out to your members of >>> Congress today, bringing this to their attention while it is still a brand >>> new bill, giving them background for your upcoming Washington Seminar >>> meetings, and even urging them to co-sponsor now. Please be advised that >>> this is a delicate political climate – all co-sponsors are welcome, but we >>> want this bill to be as bi-partisan as possible. >>>> >>>> The text of the bill and an updated fact sheet are attached. If you have >>> any questions, give me a ring at the National Center at 410.659.9314 ext. >>> 2207 or email me at lmclarney at nfb.org. I'm looking forward to working >>> with everyone to make this thing move! >>>> >>>> Lauren >>>> >>>> Lauren McLarney >>>> Government Affairs Specialist >>>> NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND >>>> 200 East Wells St. >>>> Baltimore, MD 21230 >>>> (410) 659 9314 ext. 2207 >>>> lmclarney at nfb.org >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Take the stress out of this year’s holiday shopping with NFB’s Bid for >>> Equality national online auction: Black Friday, Nov. 29, to Giving Tuesday, >>> Dec. 3. View our must-have donations and register to make your Bid for >>> Equality. The future is in your bid! >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Nfbnet-members-list mailing list >>>> Nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org >>>> List archives: < >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nfbnet-members-list_nfbnet.org> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/laurel.stockard%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 01:23:31 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie P.) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 18:23:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: First, let me get my key positions out of the way with very little song-and-dance... 1. I understand the economy is in the dumps, however, this does not mean there are ZERO jobs available. In fact, I frequently encounter a large number of businesses in my area alone (Denver and surrounding cities) that are, in fact, hiring. There are, of course, more and more people who have been laid off in previous years who will be competing for these jobs along with the recent college grads with significantly less work experience. The fact of the matter is that jobs are hard to get, but perhaps not so hard to find, and when people say "stop blaming the economy", they are more likely trying to say that knowledge of the state of the economy is not sufficient reason to simply not look for a job - ACTIVELY! If you really want a job, you have to beat the pavement. You have to fill out lots of applications and make lots of phone calls and in-person visits to places that are hiring, every single day, until you've either run out of options or have that job. It's probably not going to be your dream job. You might be serving ice cream in the mall with a bunch of high schoolers for a year, but you'll be getting work experience and earning money, and if that is important to you, that's what you'll need to do. If you're content collecting SSI, or if you're holding out for some more ideal job that may or may not exist, I don't have a problem with that. That's your choice. I just personally don't enjoy listening to a small few peers (probably not on list) who will not even take the first steps in trying to find a job and will say it's because the economy is bad. 2. Regarding job accommodations, it has generally been my experience that if you are offering up a solution to an access problem that will not cost your employer a dime, they're willing to work with you. For example, I worked for a research institute for a short time, and needed to perform, all of my work tasks on a computer. When I suggested that I use my own laptop at work so that the employer wouldn't have to acquire or install any new software on their own, and would in fact have a computer of their own completely unoccupied and available for another's use, they were thrilled. I know a few sighted software developers who use their own laptops at work, too. Security isn't as huge an issue as you might think. There are enough contractual agreements between employers and employees to keep everyone protected, and where those fail, firewalls and other technological security measures step in. A much bigger issue for any employee is going to be the cost of hiring you, and if there is any way at all that you can clearly minimize that cost from the start, you'll be better off. 3. Finally, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure I've heard anyone discuss self-employment as an option for a lot of us who are qualified for hire but can't seem to find a job for what ever reason. I wont say it's easy to start a business, but it isn't so difficult that you need to be some kind of super genius or business expert to do it, and this I can say from experience. Sometimes, to be successful, you have to travel the road less taken. If you have a skill, a talent, a special interest or hobby that you're happy to put a lot of time into, chances are very good that here's a way to monazite it and turn a profit. Programming is great for this, because software costs virtually nothing to make, and only requires time and effort as start-up capital. Teaching is another skill that can be turned into a self-employment opportunity. I have a friend who makes his entire living as a private tutor, and lives very comfortably with no need for SSI or any similar benefits. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I feel like if we're going to discuss blindness and employment, we need to give the idea of self-employment a fair amount of time in our minds and in our discussions because while it is not the standard 9 to 5 we typically associate with the American Dream, it is certainly a viable path to the same, if not greater, success in this world. On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 12:36 PM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > I think, the other side to the argument is: > Regardless of the economy, we always appear as a liability not an asset to > companies large and small. Companies will always blame the economy, or our > "costs" before hiring us. It is the fact of corporate America. They think > with the pocket, not the fact that, we are probably harder loyal workers > compared to most "normal" people. The average individual can not deal > with, or handle seeing someone who is "different" in an office setting. > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Nov 14, 2013, at 9:54 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" > wrote: > > > > Joe: > > Minh's point was just this: > > > > There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see > college graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them are > qualified and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping your > skills sharp, so are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring process, > who do you think employers are going to hire? Are they going to hire the > blind guy who they are uncertain about, who they may need to spend money on > accomidating, or are they going to hire the next perfectly abel person in > line? They can pay lower wages and people will still take the jobs, and > guess what? If they don't, the next person will. The economy is bad right > now, which means it's bad for everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small > businesses. Why shell out extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on > accomidations when you can have someone that does the same job and costs > you less? You sound like you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts > of life. No, Minh never said we are less able. She was just pointing out > some of the logical reasons behind your point. you can deny all you want, > but it doesn't change the facts of life. As to your jab about her > mantality, she's probably one of the most active blind people I've met, so > I don't think that's the case here. It may be different for you to point > that finger if she sat at home and did nothing. > >> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: > >> Tyler, > >> > >> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's > >> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even with a > >> position in the federal government I have kept a part-time business > running, > >> because although government jobs are said to be secure, nothing is > >> guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still had income to > fall > >> back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six months of savings to > >> actively seek the next best position. Why? Because I have kept my > skills up > >> to date, because I have kept a fair professional network intact, and > because > >> I understand the ability to create positions for myself through the > >> consulting capacity that a lot of Americans pursued after the economic > >> decline several years ago. I say that in hopes people will be angered > enough > >> to try new strategies to find their next job. Remember it's usually the > >> first one that's the toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me can > steadily > >> increase his income, you can do it better. > >> > >> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there are > jobs > >> to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one of > quantity > >> without fully looking at quality. The people who get chosen are the > ones who > >> make the cut, and that's true no matter the condition of the economy. > The > >> concern should not be the sheer number of people competing for the jobs > you > >> wish you had. It's what you've been doing to separate yourself from > those > >> numbers. > >> > >> Ashley, > >> > >> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. During > that > >> year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities and > learned a > >> valuable skill that played a key role in landing my first real job. > Anything > >> you can do to fill your resume is viewed positively. > >> > >> Minh, > >> > >> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. > >> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that we as > >> blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared to people > who > >> need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes no matter > what we > >> do, we will always be viewed as second class citizens when compared to > our > >> sighted peers. An employer is not thinking about the state of the > economy > >> when she is looking to hire someone to fill a role. All she cares about > is > >> finding the right person to do the job she needs completed. We're going > to > >> need accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are > competitive, or > >> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy makes > things > >> significantly worse for us. > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > > > > -- > > Take care, > > Ty > > http://tds-solutions.net > > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 02:17:34 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 21:17:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <52856F50.7030100@tysdomain.com> <006b01cee1aa$e7d6d870$b7848950$@gmail.com> <52858C98.2060301@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <00a101cee33b$2de808c0$89b81a40$@gmail.com> Also, self-employment allows you to control your own schedule, and your own methods with how you complete your tasks, and serve your customers. Everything is accessible. Do your own self-inventory of your skills and just see which ones are viable for employment, or self-employment. You do not have to do it like your sighted counterparts. We have to be more deliberate in in the steps we take, and for us, it is more imperative to find a corner of a market. To find a job, our methods from start to finish have to be planned out a little better than our sighted compatriots for all of the reasons mentioned on this list. However, it is very doable; not easy, but doable. Remember, a lot of effort in the wrong direction equals no effort in no direction, and a lot of lost energy and frustration. Using about half of said effort in the right direction, in other words, proper application of your skills with a positive attitude will take you quite a ways. You have to be able to explain to an employer from A through z, how you can help the company including enough about the assistive technology so that the employer will no that you can find solutions. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jamie P. Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 8:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy First, let me get my key positions out of the way with very little song-and-dance... 1. I understand the economy is in the dumps, however, this does not mean there are ZERO jobs available. In fact, I frequently encounter a large number of businesses in my area alone (Denver and surrounding cities) that are, in fact, hiring. There are, of course, more and more people who have been laid off in previous years who will be competing for these jobs along with the recent college grads with significantly less work experience. The fact of the matter is that jobs are hard to get, but perhaps not so hard to find, and when people say "stop blaming the economy", they are more likely trying to say that knowledge of the state of the economy is not sufficient reason to simply not look for a job - ACTIVELY! If you really want a job, you have to beat the pavement. You have to fill out lots of applications and make lots of phone calls and in-person visits to places that are hiring, every single day, until you've either run out of options or have that job. It's probably not going to be your dream job. You might be serving ice cream in the mall with a bunch of high schoolers for a year, but you'll be getting work experience and earning money, and if that is important to you, that's what you'll need to do. If you're content collecting SSI, or if you're holding out for some more ideal job that may or may not exist, I don't have a problem with that. That's your choice. I just personally don't enjoy listening to a small few peers (probably not on list) who will not even take the first steps in trying to find a job and will say it's because the economy is bad. 2. Regarding job accommodations, it has generally been my experience that if you are offering up a solution to an access problem that will not cost your employer a dime, they're willing to work with you. For example, I worked for a research institute for a short time, and needed to perform, all of my work tasks on a computer. When I suggested that I use my own laptop at work so that the employer wouldn't have to acquire or install any new software on their own, and would in fact have a computer of their own completely unoccupied and available for another's use, they were thrilled. I know a few sighted software developers who use their own laptops at work, too. Security isn't as huge an issue as you might think. There are enough contractual agreements between employers and employees to keep everyone protected, and where those fail, firewalls and other technological security measures step in. A much bigger issue for any employee is going to be the cost of hiring you, and if there is any way at all that you can clearly minimize that cost from the start, you'll be better off. 3. Finally, I could be wrong, but I'm not sure I've heard anyone discuss self-employment as an option for a lot of us who are qualified for hire but can't seem to find a job for what ever reason. I wont say it's easy to start a business, but it isn't so difficult that you need to be some kind of super genius or business expert to do it, and this I can say from experience. Sometimes, to be successful, you have to travel the road less taken. If you have a skill, a talent, a special interest or hobby that you're happy to put a lot of time into, chances are very good that here's a way to monazite it and turn a profit. Programming is great for this, because software costs virtually nothing to make, and only requires time and effort as start-up capital. Teaching is another skill that can be turned into a self-employment opportunity. I have a friend who makes his entire living as a private tutor, and lives very comfortably with no need for SSI or any similar benefits. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I feel like if we're going to discuss blindness and employment, we need to give the idea of self-employment a fair amount of time in our minds and in our discussions because while it is not the standard 9 to 5 we typically associate with the American Dream, it is certainly a viable path to the same, if not greater, success in this world. On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 12:36 PM, wmodnl wmodnl wrote: > I think, the other side to the argument is: > Regardless of the economy, we always appear as a liability not an > asset to companies large and small. Companies will always blame the > economy, or our "costs" before hiring us. It is the fact of corporate > America. They think with the pocket, not the fact that, we are > probably harder loyal workers compared to most "normal" people. The > average individual can not deal with, or handle seeing someone who is "different" in an office setting. > > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Nov 14, 2013, at 9:54 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" > > > wrote: > > > > Joe: > > Minh's point was just this: > > > > There are a ton of people right now (it's not really uncommon to see > college graduates living with their parents) without jobs. all of them > are qualified and all of them would love a job. While you're keeping > your skills sharp, so are they. Now, when it comes down to the hiring > process, who do you think employers are going to hire? Are they going > to hire the blind guy who they are uncertain about, who they may need > to spend money on accomidating, or are they going to hire the next > perfectly abel person in line? They can pay lower wages and people > will still take the jobs, and guess what? If they don't, the next > person will. The economy is bad right now, which means it's bad for > everyone--you, me, uncle sam and most small businesses. Why shell out > extra hundreds of dollars that may be required on accomidations when > you can have someone that does the same job and costs you less? You > sound like you're in a bit of denial here, but it's the facts of life. > No, Minh never said we are less able. She was just pointing out some > of the logical reasons behind your point. you can deny all you want, > but it doesn't change the facts of life. As to your jab about her > mantality, she's probably one of the most active blind people I've > met, so I don't think that's the case here. It may be different for you to point that finger if she sat at home and did nothing. > >> On 11/14/2013 9:32 PM, Joe wrote: > >> Tyler, > >> > >> I'm not sure what reality check you're hoping I'll receive. If it's > >> unemployment you're wishing on me, anything is possible, but even > >> with a position in the federal government I have kept a part-time > >> business > running, > >> because although government jobs are said to be secure, nothing is > >> guaranteed. The shutdown didn't bother me because I still had > >> income to > fall > >> back on. If I lose my job tomorrow, I will have six months of > >> savings to actively seek the next best position. Why? Because I > >> have kept my > skills up > >> to date, because I have kept a fair professional network intact, > >> and > because > >> I understand the ability to create positions for myself through the > >> consulting capacity that a lot of Americans pursued after the > >> economic decline several years ago. I say that in hopes people will > >> be angered > enough > >> to try new strategies to find their next job. Remember it's usually > >> the first one that's the toughest to obtain. If an idiot like me > >> can > steadily > >> increase his income, you can do it better. > >> > >> It's easy to say there are more people looking for jobs than there > >> are > jobs > >> to fill. Unfortunately that oversimplifies the argument into one of > quantity > >> without fully looking at quality. The people who get chosen are the > ones who > >> make the cut, and that's true no matter the condition of the economy. > The > >> concern should not be the sheer number of people competing for the > >> jobs > you > >> wish you had. It's what you've been doing to separate yourself from > those > >> numbers. > >> > >> Ashley, > >> > >> Right on about volunteering. I completed a year of AmeriCorps. > >> During > that > >> year I pushed myself into areas outside of my responsibilities and > learned a > >> valuable skill that played a key role in landing my first real job. > Anything > >> you can do to fill your resume is viewed positively. > >> > >> Minh, > >> > >> I don't agree with Tyler's points, but I can see where he's coming from. > >> Yet, it's exactly your mentality I can't process. This notion that > >> we as blind people will always be at a disadvantage when compared > >> to people > who > >> need no accommodations drives me crazy, because it assumes no > >> matter > what we > >> do, we will always be viewed as second class citizens when compared > >> to > our > >> sighted peers. An employer is not thinking about the state of the > economy > >> when she is looking to hire someone to fill a role. All she cares > >> about > is > >> finding the right person to do the job she needs completed. We're > >> going > to > >> need accommodations no matter the economy, so either we are > competitive, or > >> we are not. I don't buy the logic that somehow the dim economy > >> makes > things > >> significantly worse for us. > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com > > > > > > -- > > Take care, > > Ty > > http://tds-solutions.net > > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; > > he > that dares not reason is a slave. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail > > .com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dandrews at visi.com Sun Nov 17 03:08:17 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2013 21:08:17 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act In-Reply-To: References: <8A4BBC23-FCD3-45DF-87E3-FDA309A80E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Act has not been passed. It has only been introduced into the House of Representatives. There is yet a long way to go. Dave At 11:02 PM 11/15/2013, you wrote: >I am greatly filled with happiness that the TEACH ACT has been passed. >However, I cannot open any of the fuile attachments. Can you please try >resending them in Adobe pdf please?? I guess I can now continue with my >collegiate studies now that this act was passed by senators in government. > > >Jimmy Hulme >jim.hulme at gmail.com > > >On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Laurel and Stockard < >laurel.stockard at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: "McLarney, Lauren" (by way of David Andrews < > > dandrews at visi.com>) > > > Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility > > in College and Higher Education Act > > > Date: November 15, 2013 at 2:09:20 PM CST > > > To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org > > > > > > Dear Fellow Federationists, > > > > > > I am proud to say that today after ten months of anticipation; > > Congressman Tom Petri introduced the Technology, Education and > > Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act (HR 3505)! The TEACH Act > > creates long-overdue accessibility guidelines for electronic instructional > > materials and related information technologies used by institutions of > > higher education. > > > > > > The law currently prohibits the use of inaccessible technology in the > > classroom because it is a form of discrimination that leaves blind students > > behind, and yet the overwhelming majority of digital instructional material > > is unusable by blind students. The guidelines created by the TEACH Act will > > give direction for manufacturers of educational technology to increase > > commercial availability of accessible materials, a prescription for > > institutions of higher education for how to best serve their disabled > > students and meet their legal obligations, and a promise that all students, > > disabled or not, will have equal access to high-quality education in the > > twenty-first century classroom. > > > > > > Blind people have been waiting for at least five years (much more, in > > reality) to see something done about the needless burdens blind college > > students face because of inaccessible technology. With the introduction of > > the TEACH Act, we are done waiting for the process of change to start. > > > > > > The creation of the TEACH Act was the result of a collaboration between > > the National Federation of the Blind and the Association of American > > Publishers. The introduction of the TEACH Act is the result of many months > > of networking and nuanced language tangling. However, the passage of the > > TEACH Act will solely be the result of the passion and power of the NFB. I > > have heard from so many of you about how personal this issue is, and I am > > always, always, always impressed at how willing and excited you all are to > > get going. Now we can finally stop chomping at the bit and get started! The > > advocacy for this bill will start with targeted meetings with Republicans > > on the Education and Workforce Committee. The legislative directors in the > > applicable states have already begun planning pre-Washington Seminar > > conference calls. I urge the rest of you to reach out to your members of > > Congress today, bringing this to their attention while it is still a brand > > new bill, giving them background for your upcoming Washington Seminar > > meetings, and even urging them to co-sponsor now. Please be advised that > > this is a delicate political climate ­ all co-sponsors are welcome, but we > > want this bill to be as bi-partisan as possible. > > > > > > The text of the bill and an updated fact sheet are attached. If you have > > any questions, give me a ring at the National Center at 410.659.9314 ext. > > 2207 or email me at lmclarney at nfb.org. I'm looking forward to working > > with everyone to make this thing move! > > > > > > Lauren > > > > > > Lauren McLarney > > > Government Affairs Specialist > > > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND > > > 200 East Wells St. > > > Baltimore, MD 21230 > > > (410) 659 9314 ext. 2207 > > > lmclarney at nfb.org From jim.hulme at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 06:42:15 2013 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 01:42:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act In-Reply-To: References: <8A4BBC23-FCD3-45DF-87E3-FDA309A80E6D@gmail.com> Message-ID: To both Lauren McLarney and David Andrews Is it possible that you could please resend the email and attachments again, they do not open and cannot be read?? Otherwise I wont understand that the law has not been passed even though it still needs to go through the House of Representatives and then the president in order to be passed as a law. I am talking about the TEACH ACT. I do appreciate your efforts in getting this law enacted and signed. If you need any help please do not hesitate to contact me in the future. Thanks for the cooperation. James Hulme 609-660-0699 (Home) 908-868-2836 (Mobile) jim.hulme at gmail.com Twitter: @JimHulmeLookout http://www.facebook.com/jimmy.hulme1 Skype: jimh885 On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 10:08 PM, David Andrews wrote: > The Act has not been passed. It has only been introduced into the House > of Representatives. There is yet a long way to go. > > Dave > > > At 11:02 PM 11/15/2013, you wrote: > >> I am greatly filled with happiness that the TEACH ACT has been passed. >> However, I cannot open any of the fuile attachments. Can you please try >> resending them in Adobe pdf please?? I guess I can now continue with my >> collegiate studies now that this act was passed by senators in government. >> >> >> Jimmy Hulme >> jim.hulme at gmail.com >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Laurel and Stockard < >> laurel.stockard at gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > Begin forwarded message: >> > >> > > From: "McLarney, Lauren" (by way of David >> Andrews < >> > dandrews at visi.com>) >> > > Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Technology, Education and Accessibility >> > in College and Higher Education Act >> > > Date: November 15, 2013 at 2:09:20 PM CST >> > > To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org >> > > >> > > Dear Fellow Federationists, >> > > >> > > I am proud to say that today after ten months of anticipation; >> > Congressman Tom Petri introduced the Technology, Education and >> > Accessibility in College and Higher Education Act (HR 3505)! The TEACH >> Act >> > creates long-overdue accessibility guidelines for electronic >> instructional >> > materials and related information technologies used by institutions of >> > higher education. >> > > >> > > The law currently prohibits the use of inaccessible technology in the >> > classroom because it is a form of discrimination that leaves blind >> students >> > behind, and yet the overwhelming majority of digital instructional >> material >> > is unusable by blind students. The guidelines created by the TEACH Act >> will >> > give direction for manufacturers of educational technology to increase >> > commercial availability of accessible materials, a prescription for >> > institutions of higher education for how to best serve their disabled >> > students and meet their legal obligations, and a promise that all >> students, >> > disabled or not, will have equal access to high-quality education in the >> > twenty-first century classroom. >> > > >> > > Blind people have been waiting for at least five years (much more, in >> > reality) to see something done about the needless burdens blind college >> > students face because of inaccessible technology. With the introduction >> of >> > the TEACH Act, we are done waiting for the process of change to start. >> > > >> > > The creation of the TEACH Act was the result of a collaboration >> between >> > the National Federation of the Blind and the Association of American >> > Publishers. The introduction of the TEACH Act is the result of many >> months >> > of networking and nuanced language tangling. However, the passage of the >> > TEACH Act will solely be the result of the passion and power of the >> NFB. I >> > have heard from so many of you about how personal this issue is, and I >> am >> > always, always, always impressed at how willing and excited you all are >> to >> > get going. Now we can finally stop chomping at the bit and get started! >> The >> > advocacy for this bill will start with targeted meetings with >> Republicans >> > on the Education and Workforce Committee. The legislative directors in >> the >> > applicable states have already begun planning pre-Washington Seminar >> > conference calls. I urge the rest of you to reach out to your members of >> > Congress today, bringing this to their attention while it is still a >> brand >> > new bill, giving them background for your upcoming Washington Seminar >> > meetings, and even urging them to co-sponsor now. Please be advised >> that >> > this is a delicate political climate ­ all co-sponsors are welcome, but >> we >> > want this bill to be as bi-partisan as possible. >> > > >> > > The text of the bill and an updated fact sheet are attached. If you >> have >> > any questions, give me a ring at the National Center at 410.659.9314ext. >> > 2207 or email me at lmclarney at nfb.org. I'm looking forward to working >> > with everyone to make this thing move! >> > > >> > > Lauren >> > > >> > > Lauren McLarney >> > > Government Affairs Specialist >> > > NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND >> > > 200 East Wells St. >> > > Baltimore, MD 21230 >> > > (410) 659 9314 ext. 2207 >> > > lmclarney at nfb.org >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From jim.hulme at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 07:36:18 2013 From: jim.hulme at gmail.com (James Hulme) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 02:36:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Reminder: your 2013-2014 National association of Blind Students Committees and their chairs. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello All, I would just like to clarify that 4. Membership Justin Mark Salisbury email address is justin.salisbury at earthlink.net if you need him for membership question or answers in the future that is his correct email address. I hope that you recognize this error and continue to correct yourself. Thanks and have a great weekend. Jimmy Hulme Member of NFB of New Jersey since 1998-present Board Member, New Jersey Association of Blind Students and NABS 609-660-0699 (Home) 908-868-2836 (Mobile) jim.hulme at gmail.com http://www.facebook.com/jimmy.hulme1 Twitter: @JimHulmeLookout or @NFB_Voice Skype: jimh885 Blog: http://www.jhulme.blogspot.com/ Resume: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/james-hulme/2b/b02/260 On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > > Greetings fellow students! > > > > Just a reminder that if you have not found a NABS committee and would > > like to do so, it is not too late. > > Below please find the committees and the people chairing them. > > 1. fundraising: Candice Chapman- chapman.candicel at gmail.com and > > Cindy Bennett -clb5590 at gmail.com > > 2. Student Slate: Karen Anderson - kea.anderson at gmail.com and Cody > > Bair - codyjbair at yahoo.com > > 3. Communications: Bre Brown - bre.brown24 at gmail.com and Gabe > > Cazares -gcazares10 at gmail.com > > 4. Membership: Justin Salisbury -PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu and Darian > smith > > – dsmithnfb at gmail.com. > > Please be in touch with the listed chairs of the committee(s) you > > wish to join, and they’ll be happy to help you get involved in the > > work that is done to advance equal rights for blind students across > > the country. > > Remember that we all can make a difference and maximize our impact > > when we work together. This is the idea of collective action. > > > > Yours in the movement, > > Darian > > > > Darian Smith > 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students > dsmithnfb at gmail.com > > www.nabslink.org > Follow the National Association of Blind Students on twitter: @nabslink > > > > Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further > > Donate your car to the National Federation of the Blind today! > > For more information, please visit: www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call > 1-855-659-9314 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From lissa1531 at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 14:02:11 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 07:02:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com><52865AA0.5010908@tysdomain.com> <00a201cee282$7061da50$51258ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3B70991EAA3846AA98BE90E9641337E4@HP30910210001> joe. very well said. Good luck in pursuing the company that you want to work for. as for the economy I don't believe its to blame for everything. I think that there are many employers that believe that blind people can't do anything. So this is the aproach that they take to hiring us. Then there is the belief that you have to have vision to do anything. then there are blind people who are working and are afraid to help another blind person get a job. These have been my experiences. I apreciate this discussion because it is giving me things to consider. I am using my finding a job as a learning opportunity and an opportunity for growth within myself. It is hard. But I haven't given up on finding a job either. I have also taken into account that I may not find a job. that is a scary thought. But it could happen. so I need to figure out alternatives. just my two cents. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS'" Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Tyler, The difficulty in finding clients for your web development skills is a marketing issue, not a general employment concern. I'm not belittling your frustration of finding customers, but hustling for clients is part of the nature of an entrepreneur, regardless of whether you set up a full business or just sell yourself. Outside of Craigslist, which I would never recommend because of their general decline where service advertisement is concerned, I would look into Elance and Odesk. You'll need to be careful with clients interested in low bids over top talent, but that's going to be true no matter what website forum you set up shop. You'll need to advertise across social networks, pick up the phone and make cold calls, and yes, in some cases you'll need to volunteer at first to prove your worth before someone hires you. That's how I picked up Serotek as a client. The crazy thing is that even after you secure new business, you still need to devote time to marketing for more, because you never know when the safety net will drop out from under you. I see you've set up a website, but it does nothing to motivate me to hire you as a developer. That's not a personal slam. It's candid feedback from a prospective customer. Finding business is a full-time job, and I understand if balancing that with school is problematic at this stage of your life. But, especially in your high demand field, more skill really does mean more job opportunities. Don't let the stupid media landscape of grim job statistics discourage you from pushing the kind of service you say you're qualified to deliver. It's not what the rest of the economy is up to. It's about what Tyler can specifically help my company do better. Remember, blind people were finding and keeping jobs long before we had today's technological conveniences. The NFB operation began with a dozen blind people working with far less at our disposal, and while some would argue the NFB is different because it's a social cause, it's because it was a social cause that it took grit and elbow grease to make it get off the ground. A nonprofit is a business like any other, and if our past leaders had just crossed their arms and said, "Well, crap, I guess that's that," we would have never seen the organization we have today. Before I move onto Bridgit, let me ask you something in all sincerity. I've now written half a dozen posts with optimistic encouragement and suggestions. You may not like my viewpoint, but I think I've done a fair job of backing up my assertions. What's your alternative? All I've read from you is that the economy sucks, that jobs are too hard to get and that I'm basically delusional for thinking anything different. Never mind that I and many others are the evidence that disprove your gloom and doom way of thinking. Surely you are not suggesting we are anomalies. So, tell us, what would you suggest to the struggling unemployed person who is desperate for a job? Are you basically saying to give up and it sucks to be you? If you offer no alternative, you're basically advocating for the status quo, and you've already said the status quo is no good. So, I am genuinely confused by your logic. Bridgit, First, let's touch on the point about the number of jobs. It would be great if all the jobs we wanted were available where we live. I think we have to reach a point where it makes sense to question whether the area we live in is open to the kind of qualifications I can bring to the market. For example, I would not live in Maine and hope to easily break into screen writing, nor would it be as feasible for me to be a rising star on Wall Street while living in Oklahoma. Is it possible? Anything's possible, but certain regions of the country are better suited for my skills than others. Grant writing is one service I offer as part of my side business, and I live in the perfect place for it given the highest concentration of nonprofits in the country. The persistent evolution of the Internet of things will help bridge some of these gaps, but until our generation fully takes over the job market, we will still have to fight against outdated views that people need to be in a traditional office to get the work done. Second, to your point about qualifications, it makes sense to think through what it is we're studying in school before investing in it. Liberal arts aren't going to make people that marketable outside of academic circles, and that's coming from a guy who may as well have graduated with a liberal arts degree. If the qualifications are severely restricting the kind of jobs I can get, something's wrong with what I studied. That's why I'm a big proponent of taking a gap year to figure out yourself and what it is you're really passionate about before spending thousands of dollars in a very expensive education program. Next, employers are humans just like we are. Their reactions are going to run a diverse range, but job hunting is a numbers game. There's nothing we can do to eliminate people who take a dim view of blind people, and let's be honest. Their views would not change even if the economy was booming. If they did not discriminate against me for being blind, they might discriminate against me for being Hispanic, male, immigrant, tall, etc. The only cold comfort I can offer is keep applying or move to an area with more open minds. Finding a job after spending years as a stay-at-home parent is not easy, nor is it fair. A stay-at-home mom knows more about running a company than the CEO given her responsibilities of time management, budgeting, planning and executing, but you know, the more I think about these qualities, the more they could make for a compelling resume. You're a great writer. Something tells me you more than others will find creative ways of conveying your talents. Not every employer will bite, but the one that does will be an awesome match. And, generally speaking to the list, I guess that's all I have. There is such a thing is diminishing returns for people who refuse to listen to something other than the tired arguments that it's the fault of the economy or my disability or the next-door neighbor. I am accused of being too idealistic, but when real unemployment strikes, it's very easy to begin questioning your self-worth. When I'm down in the dumps and wondering if I stumbled down the wrong path in life, I would personally rather here of how I might just make my passion work instead of constant reminders that we have it so bad for being blind and for having to compete against so many applicants. To each his own. Me, there's a company I've been eager to work for these past few years. I believe next year I'll make a resolution to get off my ass and earn at least a part-time contract there. Statistics be damned. They'd be lucky to have me working for them. Arrogant? Absolutely, but it's one of many possible ways to separating the great from the good. The key is figuring out the approach that makes you better. To your success, Joe _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 14:26:33 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:26:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <3B70991EAA3846AA98BE90E9641337E4@HP30910210001> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com><52865AA0.5010908@tysdomain.com> <00a201cee282$7061da50$51258ef0$@gmail.com> <3B70991EAA3846AA98BE90E9641337E4@HP30910210001> Message-ID: <000a01cee3a1$04761390$0d623ab0$@gmail.com> I've also encountered those individuals who will not assist in the acquisition of a job amongst the Blind. That is unfortunate and selfish. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa Green Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:02 AM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy joe. very well said. Good luck in pursuing the company that you want to work for. as for the economy I don't believe its to blame for everything. I think that there are many employers that believe that blind people can't do anything. So this is the aproach that they take to hiring us. Then there is the belief that you have to have vision to do anything. then there are blind people who are working and are afraid to help another blind person get a job. These have been my experiences. I apreciate this discussion because it is giving me things to consider. I am using my finding a job as a learning opportunity and an opportunity for growth within myself. It is hard. But I haven't given up on finding a job either. I have also taken into account that I may not find a job. that is a scary thought. But it could happen. so I need to figure out alternatives. just my two cents. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: "'NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BLIND STUDENTS'" Sent: Friday, November 15, 2013 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Tyler, The difficulty in finding clients for your web development skills is a marketing issue, not a general employment concern. I'm not belittling your frustration of finding customers, but hustling for clients is part of the nature of an entrepreneur, regardless of whether you set up a full business or just sell yourself. Outside of Craigslist, which I would never recommend because of their general decline where service advertisement is concerned, I would look into Elance and Odesk. You'll need to be careful with clients interested in low bids over top talent, but that's going to be true no matter what website forum you set up shop. You'll need to advertise across social networks, pick up the phone and make cold calls, and yes, in some cases you'll need to volunteer at first to prove your worth before someone hires you. That's how I picked up Serotek as a client. The crazy thing is that even after you secure new business, you still need to devote time to marketing for more, because you never know when the safety net will drop out from under you. I see you've set up a website, but it does nothing to motivate me to hire you as a developer. That's not a personal slam. It's candid feedback from a prospective customer. Finding business is a full-time job, and I understand if balancing that with school is problematic at this stage of your life. But, especially in your high demand field, more skill really does mean more job opportunities. Don't let the stupid media landscape of grim job statistics discourage you from pushing the kind of service you say you're qualified to deliver. It's not what the rest of the economy is up to. It's about what Tyler can specifically help my company do better. Remember, blind people were finding and keeping jobs long before we had today's technological conveniences. The NFB operation began with a dozen blind people working with far less at our disposal, and while some would argue the NFB is different because it's a social cause, it's because it was a social cause that it took grit and elbow grease to make it get off the ground. A nonprofit is a business like any other, and if our past leaders had just crossed their arms and said, "Well, crap, I guess that's that," we would have never seen the organization we have today. Before I move onto Bridgit, let me ask you something in all sincerity. I've now written half a dozen posts with optimistic encouragement and suggestions. You may not like my viewpoint, but I think I've done a fair job of backing up my assertions. What's your alternative? All I've read from you is that the economy sucks, that jobs are too hard to get and that I'm basically delusional for thinking anything different. Never mind that I and many others are the evidence that disprove your gloom and doom way of thinking. Surely you are not suggesting we are anomalies. So, tell us, what would you suggest to the struggling unemployed person who is desperate for a job? Are you basically saying to give up and it sucks to be you? If you offer no alternative, you're basically advocating for the status quo, and you've already said the status quo is no good. So, I am genuinely confused by your logic. Bridgit, First, let's touch on the point about the number of jobs. It would be great if all the jobs we wanted were available where we live. I think we have to reach a point where it makes sense to question whether the area we live in is open to the kind of qualifications I can bring to the market. For example, I would not live in Maine and hope to easily break into screen writing, nor would it be as feasible for me to be a rising star on Wall Street while living in Oklahoma. Is it possible? Anything's possible, but certain regions of the country are better suited for my skills than others. Grant writing is one service I offer as part of my side business, and I live in the perfect place for it given the highest concentration of nonprofits in the country. The persistent evolution of the Internet of things will help bridge some of these gaps, but until our generation fully takes over the job market, we will still have to fight against outdated views that people need to be in a traditional office to get the work done. Second, to your point about qualifications, it makes sense to think through what it is we're studying in school before investing in it. Liberal arts aren't going to make people that marketable outside of academic circles, and that's coming from a guy who may as well have graduated with a liberal arts degree. If the qualifications are severely restricting the kind of jobs I can get, something's wrong with what I studied. That's why I'm a big proponent of taking a gap year to figure out yourself and what it is you're really passionate about before spending thousands of dollars in a very expensive education program. Next, employers are humans just like we are. Their reactions are going to run a diverse range, but job hunting is a numbers game. There's nothing we can do to eliminate people who take a dim view of blind people, and let's be honest. Their views would not change even if the economy was booming. If they did not discriminate against me for being blind, they might discriminate against me for being Hispanic, male, immigrant, tall, etc. The only cold comfort I can offer is keep applying or move to an area with more open minds. Finding a job after spending years as a stay-at-home parent is not easy, nor is it fair. A stay-at-home mom knows more about running a company than the CEO given her responsibilities of time management, budgeting, planning and executing, but you know, the more I think about these qualities, the more they could make for a compelling resume. You're a great writer. Something tells me you more than others will find creative ways of conveying your talents. Not every employer will bite, but the one that does will be an awesome match. And, generally speaking to the list, I guess that's all I have. There is such a thing is diminishing returns for people who refuse to listen to something other than the tired arguments that it's the fault of the economy or my disability or the next-door neighbor. I am accused of being too idealistic, but when real unemployment strikes, it's very easy to begin questioning your self-worth. When I'm down in the dumps and wondering if I stumbled down the wrong path in life, I would personally rather here of how I might just make my passion work instead of constant reminders that we have it so bad for being blind and for having to compete against so many applicants. To each his own. Me, there's a company I've been eager to work for these past few years. I believe next year I'll make a resolution to get off my ass and earn at least a part-time contract there. Statistics be damned. They'd be lucky to have me working for them. Arrogant? Absolutely, but it's one of many possible ways to separating the great from the good. The key is figuring out the approach that makes you better. To your success, Joe _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 16:01:00 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 08:01:00 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Reminder: your 2013-2014 National association of Blind Students Committees and their chairs. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8ED5777C-FC7D-47D2-902C-73B993AFDBE3@gmail.com> Hi all, Thank you for the correction Jimmy. Jimmy is essentially correct. While the email that I sent out as an email address that will get to him, the one that he prefers to use is the EarthLink email address. This email address will always be the default one. I apologize for any confusion, and will make the appropriate corrections today. Thank you Justin and Jimmy for correcting me on that. Enjoy your Sunday! Darian.P. s. Hey Jimmy, I hope that you find a committee that interests you. We would love to have you as a part of the team. I'm sure that your talents would fit any of our great committees! always have, This electronic message has been brought to you by my mobile device. > On Nov 16, 2013, at 11:36 PM, James Hulme wrote: > > Hello All, > > > > I would just like to clarify that 4. Membership > Justin Mark Salisbury email address is justin.salisbury at earthlink.net if you need him for membership question or answers in the future that is his correct email address. I hope that you recognize this error and continue to correct yourself. Thanks and have a great weekend. > > > > > Jimmy Hulme > Member of NFB of New Jersey since 1998-present > Board Member, New Jersey Association of Blind Students and NABS > 609-660-0699 (Home) > 908-868-2836 (Mobile) > jim.hulme at gmail.com > http://www.facebook.com/jimmy.hulme1 > Twitter: @JimHulmeLookout > or @NFB_Voice > Skype: jimh885 > Blog: http://www.jhulme.blogspot.com/ > Resume: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/james-hulme/2b/b02/260 > > > > >> On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >> > Greetings fellow students! >> > >> > Just a reminder that if you have not found a NABS committee and would >> > like to do so, it is not too late. >> > Below please find the committees and the people chairing them. >> > 1. fundraising: Candice Chapman- chapman.candicel at gmail.com and >> > Cindy Bennett -clb5590 at gmail.com >> > 2. Student Slate: Karen Anderson - kea.anderson at gmail.com and Cody >> > Bair - codyjbair at yahoo.com >> > 3. Communications: Bre Brown - bre.brown24 at gmail.com and Gabe >> > Cazares -gcazares10 at gmail.com >> > 4. Membership: Justin Salisbury -PRESIDENT at alumni.ecu and Darian smith >> > – dsmithnfb at gmail.com. >> > Please be in touch with the listed chairs of the committee(s) you >> > wish to join, and they’ll be happy to help you get involved in the >> > work that is done to advance equal rights for blind students across >> > the country. >> > Remember that we all can make a difference and maximize our impact >> > when we work together. This is the idea of collective action. >> > >> > Yours in the movement, >> > Darian >> >> >> >> Darian Smith >> 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students >> dsmithnfb at gmail.com >> >> www.nabslink.org >> Follow the National Association of Blind Students on twitter: @nabslink >> > >> > Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further >> > Donate your car to the National Federation of the Blind today! >> > For more information, please visit: www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jim.hulme%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 16:55:34 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 08:55:34 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Correction to National Student Division Committee List Message-ID: Hi all, The Correct e-mail address to use for for contacting Justin Salisbury is: justin.salisbury at earthlink.net Aside from this correction, all other committee chairs and their contact information is accurate. Reminder should you have any questions, please feel free to contact any of the board including President Sean Whalen at nabs.president at gmail.com. Thanks, Darian From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Nov 17 17:08:26 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:08:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <00a201cee282$7061da50$51258ef0$@gmail.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com> <52865AA0.5010908@tysdomain.com> <00a201cee282$7061da50$51258ef0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5288F80A.2050800@tysdomain.com> Joe: Through this thread, my point hasn't been to say that blind people are not capable of working. In fact, if that were my stance I wouldn't be working through college right now, taking out loans to cover what scholarships do not. My point is to say that your conservative "I have a job and so should you--just pull yourself up by the bootstraps" ideal is very very flawed. You began this thread initially complaining about people who blame the economy, to which I agreed partially and said that while there are some people who do, the economy makes it a lot harder to get jobs. It increases the difficulty for us as blind applicants because we already have other hurtles in the way--assistive technology, accomadations, etc etc. Basically I'm saying it's not quite as easy as you make it sound, while boasting about yourself and skills at the same time. Most people looking for jobs (even sighted people) will agree here. You hold a pretty comfortable position within the government, which I dare say is not really the same as applying to a huge corporation or even a smaller business with minimal resources. On 11/15/2013 11:15 PM, Joe wrote: > Tyler, > > The difficulty in finding clients for your web development skills is a > marketing issue, not a general employment concern. I'm not belittling your > frustration of finding customers, but hustling for clients is part of the > nature of an entrepreneur, regardless of whether you set up a full business > or just sell yourself. Outside of Craigslist, which I would never recommend > because of their general decline where service advertisement is concerned, I > would look into Elance and Odesk. You'll need to be careful with clients > interested in low bids over top talent, but that's going to be true no > matter what website forum you set up shop. You'll need to advertise across > social networks, pick up the phone and make cold calls, and yes, in some > cases you'll need to volunteer at first to prove your worth before someone > hires you. That's how I picked up Serotek as a client. The crazy thing is > that even after you secure new business, you still need to devote time to > marketing for more, because you never know when the safety net will drop out > from under you. > > I see you've set up a website, but it does nothing to motivate me to hire > you as a developer. That's not a personal slam. It's candid feedback from a > prospective customer. > > Finding business is a full-time job, and I understand if balancing that with > school is problematic at this stage of your life. But, especially in your > high demand field, more skill really does mean more job opportunities. Don't > let the stupid media landscape of grim job statistics discourage you from > pushing the kind of service you say you're qualified to deliver. It's not > what the rest of the economy is up to. It's about what Tyler can > specifically help my company do better. > > Remember, blind people were finding and keeping jobs long before we had > today's technological conveniences. The NFB operation began with a dozen > blind people working with far less at our disposal, and while some would > argue the NFB is different because it's a social cause, it's because it was > a social cause that it took grit and elbow grease to make it get off the > ground. A nonprofit is a business like any other, and if our past leaders > had just crossed their arms and said, "Well, crap, I guess that's that," we > would have never seen the organization we have today. > > Before I move onto Bridgit, let me ask you something in all sincerity. I've > now written half a dozen posts with optimistic encouragement and > suggestions. You may not like my viewpoint, but I think I've done a fair job > of backing up my assertions. What's your alternative? All I've read from you > is that the economy sucks, that jobs are too hard to get and that I'm > basically delusional for thinking anything different. Never mind that I and > many others are the evidence that disprove your gloom and doom way of > thinking. Surely you are not suggesting we are anomalies. So, tell us, what > would you suggest to the struggling unemployed person who is desperate for a > job? Are you basically saying to give up and it sucks to be you? If you > offer no alternative, you're basically advocating for the status quo, and > you've already said the status quo is no good. So, I am genuinely confused > by your logic. > > Bridgit, > > First, let's touch on the point about the number of jobs. It would be great > if all the jobs we wanted were available where we live. I think we have to > reach a point where it makes sense to question whether the area we live in > is open to the kind of qualifications I can bring to the market. For > example, I would not live in Maine and hope to easily break into screen > writing, nor would it be as feasible for me to be a rising star on Wall > Street while living in Oklahoma. Is it possible? Anything's possible, but > certain regions of the country are better suited for my skills than others. > Grant writing is one service I offer as part of my side business, and I live > in the perfect place for it given the highest concentration of nonprofits in > the country. The persistent evolution of the Internet of things will help > bridge some of these gaps, but until our generation fully takes over the job > market, we will still have to fight against outdated views that people need > to be in a traditional office to get the work done. > > Second, to your point about qualifications, it makes sense to think through > what it is we're studying in school before investing in it. Liberal arts > aren't going to make people that marketable outside of academic circles, and > that's coming from a guy who may as well have graduated with a liberal arts > degree. If the qualifications are severely restricting the kind of jobs I > can get, something's wrong with what I studied. That's why I'm a big > proponent of taking a gap year to figure out yourself and what it is you're > really passionate about before spending thousands of dollars in a very > expensive education program. > > Next, employers are humans just like we are. Their reactions are going to > run a diverse range, but job hunting is a numbers game. There's nothing we > can do to eliminate people who take a dim view of blind people, and let's be > honest. Their views would not change even if the economy was booming. If > they did not discriminate against me for being blind, they might > discriminate against me for being Hispanic, male, immigrant, tall, etc. The > only cold comfort I can offer is keep applying or move to an area with more > open minds. > > Finding a job after spending years as a stay-at-home parent is not easy, nor > is it fair. A stay-at-home mom knows more about running a company than the > CEO given her responsibilities of time management, budgeting, planning and > executing, but you know, the more I think about these qualities, the more > they could make for a compelling resume. You're a great writer. Something > tells me you more than others will find creative ways of conveying your > talents. Not every employer will bite, but the one that does will be an > awesome match. > > And, generally speaking to the list, I guess that's all I have. There is > such a thing is diminishing returns for people who refuse to listen to > something other than the tired arguments that it's the fault of the economy > or my disability or the next-door neighbor. I am accused of being too > idealistic, but when real unemployment strikes, it's very easy to begin > questioning your self-worth. When I'm down in the dumps and wondering if I > stumbled down the wrong path in life, I would personally rather here of how > I might just make my passion work instead of constant reminders that we have > it so bad for being blind and for having to compete against so many > applicants. > > To each his own. Me, there's a company I've been eager to work for these > past few years. I believe next year I'll make a resolution to get off my ass > and earn at least a part-time contract there. Statistics be damned. They'd > be lucky to have me working for them. Arrogant? Absolutely, but it's one of > many possible ways to separating the great from the good. The key is > figuring out the approach that makes you better. > > To your success, > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 17 18:39:50 2013 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 12:39:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn><00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com><52865AA0.5010908@tysdomain.com><00a201cee282$7061da50$51258ef0$@gmail.com> <5288F80A.2050800@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <004301cee3c4$669132d0$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> Good afternoon everyone, Our own experience with recruiting blind individuals in to our ventures has proven Joe's point beyond any reason of a doubt. The economy didn't tell them to say "No" to a viable opportunity when it was presented to them. They said "No" to themselves and the opportunity. We've seen this happen over and over again as recently as last week. Such individuals have their reward and the privilege of never knowing the good they could have done to achieve the financial independence needed to help themselves and their families, and for that matter the NFB. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Littlefield, Tyler" To: ; "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Joe: Through this thread, my point hasn't been to say that blind people are not capable of working. In fact, if that were my stance I wouldn't be working through college right now, taking out loans to cover what scholarships do not. My point is to say that your conservative "I have a job and so should you--just pull yourself up by the bootstraps" ideal is very very flawed. You began this thread initially complaining about people who blame the economy, to which I agreed partially and said that while there are some people who do, the economy makes it a lot harder to get jobs. It increases the difficulty for us as blind applicants because we already have other hurtles in the way--assistive technology, accomadations, etc etc. Basically I'm saying it's not quite as easy as you make it sound, while boasting about yourself and skills at the same time. Most people looking for jobs (even sighted people) will agree here. You hold a pretty comfortable position within the government, which I dare say is not really the same as applying to a huge corporation or even a smaller business with minimal resources. On 11/15/2013 11:15 PM, Joe wrote: > Tyler, > > The difficulty in finding clients for your web development skills is a > marketing issue, not a general employment concern. I'm not belittling your > frustration of finding customers, but hustling for clients is part of the > nature of an entrepreneur, regardless of whether you set up a full > business > or just sell yourself. Outside of Craigslist, which I would never > recommend > because of their general decline where service advertisement is concerned, > I > would look into Elance and Odesk. You'll need to be careful with clients > interested in low bids over top talent, but that's going to be true no > matter what website forum you set up shop. You'll need to advertise across > social networks, pick up the phone and make cold calls, and yes, in some > cases you'll need to volunteer at first to prove your worth before someone > hires you. That's how I picked up Serotek as a client. The crazy thing is > that even after you secure new business, you still need to devote time to > marketing for more, because you never know when the safety net will drop > out > from under you. > > I see you've set up a website, but it does nothing to motivate me to hire > you as a developer. That's not a personal slam. It's candid feedback from > a > prospective customer. > > Finding business is a full-time job, and I understand if balancing that > with > school is problematic at this stage of your life. But, especially in your > high demand field, more skill really does mean more job opportunities. > Don't > let the stupid media landscape of grim job statistics discourage you from > pushing the kind of service you say you're qualified to deliver. It's not > what the rest of the economy is up to. It's about what Tyler can > specifically help my company do better. > > Remember, blind people were finding and keeping jobs long before we had > today's technological conveniences. The NFB operation began with a dozen > blind people working with far less at our disposal, and while some would > argue the NFB is different because it's a social cause, it's because it > was > a social cause that it took grit and elbow grease to make it get off the > ground. A nonprofit is a business like any other, and if our past leaders > had just crossed their arms and said, "Well, crap, I guess that's that," > we > would have never seen the organization we have today. > > Before I move onto Bridgit, let me ask you something in all sincerity. > I've > now written half a dozen posts with optimistic encouragement and > suggestions. You may not like my viewpoint, but I think I've done a fair > job > of backing up my assertions. What's your alternative? All I've read from > you > is that the economy sucks, that jobs are too hard to get and that I'm > basically delusional for thinking anything different. Never mind that I > and > many others are the evidence that disprove your gloom and doom way of > thinking. Surely you are not suggesting we are anomalies. So, tell us, > what > would you suggest to the struggling unemployed person who is desperate for > a > job? Are you basically saying to give up and it sucks to be you? If you > offer no alternative, you're basically advocating for the status quo, and > you've already said the status quo is no good. So, I am genuinely confused > by your logic. > > Bridgit, > > First, let's touch on the point about the number of jobs. It would be > great > if all the jobs we wanted were available where we live. I think we have to > reach a point where it makes sense to question whether the area we live in > is open to the kind of qualifications I can bring to the market. For > example, I would not live in Maine and hope to easily break into screen > writing, nor would it be as feasible for me to be a rising star on Wall > Street while living in Oklahoma. Is it possible? Anything's possible, but > certain regions of the country are better suited for my skills than > others. > Grant writing is one service I offer as part of my side business, and I > live > in the perfect place for it given the highest concentration of nonprofits > in > the country. The persistent evolution of the Internet of things will help > bridge some of these gaps, but until our generation fully takes over the > job > market, we will still have to fight against outdated views that people > need > to be in a traditional office to get the work done. > > Second, to your point about qualifications, it makes sense to think > through > what it is we're studying in school before investing in it. Liberal arts > aren't going to make people that marketable outside of academic circles, > and > that's coming from a guy who may as well have graduated with a liberal > arts > degree. If the qualifications are severely restricting the kind of jobs I > can get, something's wrong with what I studied. That's why I'm a big > proponent of taking a gap year to figure out yourself and what it is > you're > really passionate about before spending thousands of dollars in a very > expensive education program. > > Next, employers are humans just like we are. Their reactions are going to > run a diverse range, but job hunting is a numbers game. There's nothing we > can do to eliminate people who take a dim view of blind people, and let's > be > honest. Their views would not change even if the economy was booming. If > they did not discriminate against me for being blind, they might > discriminate against me for being Hispanic, male, immigrant, tall, etc. > The > only cold comfort I can offer is keep applying or move to an area with > more > open minds. > > Finding a job after spending years as a stay-at-home parent is not easy, > nor > is it fair. A stay-at-home mom knows more about running a company than the > CEO given her responsibilities of time management, budgeting, planning and > executing, but you know, the more I think about these qualities, the more > they could make for a compelling resume. You're a great writer. Something > tells me you more than others will find creative ways of conveying your > talents. Not every employer will bite, but the one that does will be an > awesome match. > > And, generally speaking to the list, I guess that's all I have. There is > such a thing is diminishing returns for people who refuse to listen to > something other than the tired arguments that it's the fault of the > economy > or my disability or the next-door neighbor. I am accused of being too > idealistic, but when real unemployment strikes, it's very easy to begin > questioning your self-worth. When I'm down in the dumps and wondering if I > stumbled down the wrong path in life, I would personally rather here of > how > I might just make my passion work instead of constant reminders that we > have > it so bad for being blind and for having to compete against so many > applicants. > > To each his own. Me, there's a company I've been eager to work for these > past few years. I believe next year I'll make a resolution to get off my > ass > and earn at least a part-time contract there. Statistics be damned. > They'd > be lucky to have me working for them. Arrogant? Absolutely, but it's one > of > many possible ways to separating the great from the good. The key is > figuring out the approach that makes you better. > > To your success, > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From jsoro620 at gmail.com Sun Nov 17 23:12:36 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:12:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy In-Reply-To: <5288F80A.2050800@tysdomain.com> References: <001e01cee19b$4afce030$e0f6a090$@gmail.com> <005801cee215$77525c80$df1fbf48@yourfsyly0jtwn> <00b101cee224$fb60fae0$f222f0a0$@gmail.com> <52865AA0.5010908@tysdomain.com> <00a201cee282$7061da50$51258ef0$@gmail.com> <5288F80A.2050800@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <006901cee3ea$81e0d150$85a273f0$@gmail.com> Tyler, Are you saying my position in the government is comfortable because you think they hire anything off the street or because they bend backward to give you anything you need? You'd be sorely mistaken on both counts. It took me years to get into an agency that only hires a couple hundred for every few thousand who apply, and as for accommodations, I had far better luck in the private sector getting what I need than I've gotten in the federal government. You'd think government would be the most disability-friendly employer. That's a knee slapper. I'm not sure why you would pretend to know my work history. I have in fact worked, and still work with, the same major corporations and shoe string businesses you reference. I honestly don't see where you were headed with that line of thinking. I've encountered the same biases and prejudices at employers large and small. I've even had experiences where I show up for an interview after being vetted and got turned away upon discovering I was blind. I could have developed some sort of a record for taking some of these places to court, but instead I went back home and began working on the next batch of applications. The irony is that even now when I want to provide services for free as a philanthropic gesture, there are places that do not want the volunteer service. I keep looking, because there are ten other places that will gladly accept the free labor. You claim my bootstraps ideal is very, very flawed but give no compelling evidence proving it. You did not answer my direct question in the other post about what alternative advice you would provide. I am left to assume that you have no answer, and that's okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm left to gather you are young, still in school and can therefore not give concrete evidence to what it is like to be unemployed, truly unemployed, something I have been and can testify to the feeling of overbearing frustration it conjures. If some of us alumni come back to the list, it's to try to give you a glimpse of what waits for you and dispense proven advice that will help you get around the inevitable challenges. If my way of thinking does not suit you, I totally respect that, but don't fight the benefit my logic could have on others. After all, I began this thread in direct response to references in the training center discussion to graduates who could not find jobs on account of the economy. That's one quick way to give up on looking for jobs and giving up on oneself. The suggestion that my style of thinking is an idealistic notion is laughable. Idealistic is putting faith in a government system that will not be able to sustain social benefits forever. Social Security is just one example of a benefit our generation will more than likely not be able to enjoy when we need it, and that's not ideology, that's economics. I would argue the more you teach yourself to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, the less dependent you will be on the whims of Congress, an employer, or your family. That's real independence. And, to those who are not doing what they can to help blind people find jobs, point me to them so's I can smack them about a bit! It's a disservice not to do what we can to help each other out, but I'll say this much speaking for myself, I only put my own neck out for people committed to hard work. I've already been burned by someone I helped put into a good position. It severely backfired and destroyed my reputation with that employer. Never again. Joe -----Original Message----- From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 12:08 PM To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy Joe: Through this thread, my point hasn't been to say that blind people are not capable of working. In fact, if that were my stance I wouldn't be working through college right now, taking out loans to cover what scholarships do not. My point is to say that your conservative "I have a job and so should you--just pull yourself up by the bootstraps" ideal is very very flawed. You began this thread initially complaining about people who blame the economy, to which I agreed partially and said that while there are some people who do, the economy makes it a lot harder to get jobs. It increases the difficulty for us as blind applicants because we already have other hurtles in the way--assistive technology, accomadations, etc etc. Basically I'm saying it's not quite as easy as you make it sound, while boasting about yourself and skills at the same time. Most people looking for jobs (even sighted people) will agree here. You hold a pretty comfortable position within the government, which I dare say is not really the same as applying to a huge corporation or even a smaller business with minimal resources. On 11/15/2013 11:15 PM, Joe wrote: > Tyler, > > The difficulty in finding clients for your web development skills is a > marketing issue, not a general employment concern. I'm not belittling > your frustration of finding customers, but hustling for clients is > part of the nature of an entrepreneur, regardless of whether you set > up a full business or just sell yourself. Outside of Craigslist, which > I would never recommend because of their general decline where service > advertisement is concerned, I would look into Elance and Odesk. You'll > need to be careful with clients interested in low bids over top > talent, but that's going to be true no matter what website forum you > set up shop. You'll need to advertise across social networks, pick up > the phone and make cold calls, and yes, in some cases you'll need to > volunteer at first to prove your worth before someone hires you. > That's how I picked up Serotek as a client. The crazy thing is that > even after you secure new business, you still need to devote time to > marketing for more, because you never know when the safety net will drop out from under you. > > I see you've set up a website, but it does nothing to motivate me to > hire you as a developer. That's not a personal slam. It's candid > feedback from a prospective customer. > > Finding business is a full-time job, and I understand if balancing > that with school is problematic at this stage of your life. But, > especially in your high demand field, more skill really does mean more > job opportunities. Don't let the stupid media landscape of grim job > statistics discourage you from pushing the kind of service you say > you're qualified to deliver. It's not what the rest of the economy is > up to. It's about what Tyler can specifically help my company do better. > > Remember, blind people were finding and keeping jobs long before we > had today's technological conveniences. The NFB operation began with a > dozen blind people working with far less at our disposal, and while > some would argue the NFB is different because it's a social cause, > it's because it was a social cause that it took grit and elbow grease > to make it get off the ground. A nonprofit is a business like any > other, and if our past leaders had just crossed their arms and said, > "Well, crap, I guess that's that," we would have never seen the organization we have today. > > Before I move onto Bridgit, let me ask you something in all sincerity. > I've now written half a dozen posts with optimistic encouragement and > suggestions. You may not like my viewpoint, but I think I've done a > fair job of backing up my assertions. What's your alternative? All > I've read from you is that the economy sucks, that jobs are too hard > to get and that I'm basically delusional for thinking anything > different. Never mind that I and many others are the evidence that > disprove your gloom and doom way of thinking. Surely you are not > suggesting we are anomalies. So, tell us, what would you suggest to > the struggling unemployed person who is desperate for a job? Are you > basically saying to give up and it sucks to be you? If you offer no > alternative, you're basically advocating for the status quo, and > you've already said the status quo is no good. So, I am genuinely confused by your logic. > > Bridgit, > > First, let's touch on the point about the number of jobs. It would be > great if all the jobs we wanted were available where we live. I think > we have to reach a point where it makes sense to question whether the > area we live in is open to the kind of qualifications I can bring to > the market. For example, I would not live in Maine and hope to easily > break into screen writing, nor would it be as feasible for me to be a > rising star on Wall Street while living in Oklahoma. Is it possible? > Anything's possible, but certain regions of the country are better suited for my skills than others. > Grant writing is one service I offer as part of my side business, and > I live in the perfect place for it given the highest concentration of > nonprofits in the country. The persistent evolution of the Internet of > things will help bridge some of these gaps, but until our generation > fully takes over the job market, we will still have to fight against > outdated views that people need to be in a traditional office to get the work done. > > Second, to your point about qualifications, it makes sense to think > through what it is we're studying in school before investing in it. > Liberal arts aren't going to make people that marketable outside of > academic circles, and that's coming from a guy who may as well have > graduated with a liberal arts degree. If the qualifications are > severely restricting the kind of jobs I can get, something's wrong > with what I studied. That's why I'm a big proponent of taking a gap > year to figure out yourself and what it is you're really passionate > about before spending thousands of dollars in a very expensive education program. > > Next, employers are humans just like we are. Their reactions are going > to run a diverse range, but job hunting is a numbers game. There's > nothing we can do to eliminate people who take a dim view of blind > people, and let's be honest. Their views would not change even if the > economy was booming. If they did not discriminate against me for being > blind, they might discriminate against me for being Hispanic, male, > immigrant, tall, etc. The only cold comfort I can offer is keep > applying or move to an area with more open minds. > > Finding a job after spending years as a stay-at-home parent is not > easy, nor is it fair. A stay-at-home mom knows more about running a > company than the CEO given her responsibilities of time management, > budgeting, planning and executing, but you know, the more I think > about these qualities, the more they could make for a compelling > resume. You're a great writer. Something tells me you more than others > will find creative ways of conveying your talents. Not every employer > will bite, but the one that does will be an awesome match. > > And, generally speaking to the list, I guess that's all I have. There > is such a thing is diminishing returns for people who refuse to listen > to something other than the tired arguments that it's the fault of the > economy or my disability or the next-door neighbor. I am accused of > being too idealistic, but when real unemployment strikes, it's very > easy to begin questioning your self-worth. When I'm down in the dumps > and wondering if I stumbled down the wrong path in life, I would > personally rather here of how I might just make my passion work > instead of constant reminders that we have it so bad for being blind > and for having to compete against so many applicants. > > To each his own. Me, there's a company I've been eager to work for > these past few years. I believe next year I'll make a resolution to > get off my ass and earn at least a part-time contract there. > Statistics be damned. They'd be lucky to have me working for them. > Arrogant? Absolutely, but it's one of many possible ways to separating > the great from the good. The key is figuring out the approach that makes you better. > > To your success, > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 17 23:18:18 2013 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:18:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sweeping Message-ID: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> I know this isn't school related. But really need help. I have a wood floor and I am having a hard time keeping it clean because I can't see enough to sweep well. Mopping is not an issue. I have tried using a vacuum that claims it can clean wood. But it's not working either. Any suggestions? Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey From tyler at tysdomain.com Sun Nov 17 23:39:32 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 18:39:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sweeping In-Reply-To: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> References: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <528953B4.6000601@tysdomain.com> you have a few options. you can sweep stuff toward a corner, which should help, or you can get one of them swiffer duster thingies. You have to buy the pads, but they are useful. On 11/17/2013 6:18 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: > I know this isn't school related. But really need help. I have a wood floor and I am having a hard time keeping it clean because I can't see enough to sweep well. Mopping is not an issue. I have tried using a vacuum that claims it can clean wood. But it's not working either. Any suggestions? > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Mon Nov 18 00:28:41 2013 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 19:28:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Successful Strategies Toward Employment (was Re: Stop Blaming the Economy) Message-ID: 924b235a-a001-4d40-952b-526e2f3418b2@samobile.net Hey folks, I am getting pretty fed up with what I perceive to be mounting hostility. I suspect that others on the list are right there with me. The honorable truth is that the economy is making it difficult for everyone to get jobs at the moment for all kinds of reasons. As blind persons, we are at a slight disadvantage due to lowered expectations and good old prejudice. At the same time, we can overcome these obstacles with a variety of methods ranging from addressing employers' concerns to self employment. There is nothing wrong with bringing these truths out into the open because they are real and operate in people's lives. I think it's hard to imagine that victory is possible in the midst of difficulty. I think it's also easy to forget what difficulty feels like when you've been victorious. I think we need both experiences now because, while we've come a long way, we still have a long way to go. None of us will be free until we are all free. As for me, i do believe in taking responsibility over what I can control; I don't believe in victim-blaming. Let me shift our discussion from blame, toward the economy or otherwise, to successful strategies toward employment no matter your interests and experiences. OK... Go! Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Tyler, > Are you saying my position in the government is comfortable because you > think they hire anything off the street or because they bend backward to > give you anything you need? You'd be sorely mistaken on both counts. It took > me years to get into an agency that only hires a couple hundred for every > few thousand who apply, and as for accommodations, I had far better luck in > the private sector getting what I need than I've gotten in the federal > government. You'd think government would be the most disability-friendly > employer. That's a knee slapper. > I'm not sure why you would pretend to know my work history. I have in fact > worked, and still work with, the same major corporations and shoe string > businesses you reference. I honestly don't see where you were headed with > that line of thinking. I've encountered the same biases and prejudices at > employers large and small. I've even had experiences where I show up for an > interview after being vetted and got turned away upon discovering I was > blind. I could have developed some sort of a record for taking some of these > places to court, but instead I went back home and began working on the next > batch of applications. The irony is that even now when I want to provide > services for free as a philanthropic gesture, there are places that do not > want the volunteer service. I keep looking, because there are ten other > places that will gladly accept the free labor. > You claim my bootstraps ideal is very, very flawed but give no compelling > evidence proving it. You did not answer my direct question in the other post > about what alternative advice you would provide. I am left to assume that > you have no answer, and that's okay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm left > to gather you are young, still in school and can therefore not give > concrete evidence to what it is like to be unemployed, truly unemployed, > something I have been and can testify to the feeling of overbearing > frustration it conjures. > If some of us alumni come back to the list, it's to try to give you a > glimpse of what waits for you and dispense proven advice that will help you > get around the inevitable challenges. If my way of thinking does not suit > you, I totally respect that, but don't fight the benefit my logic could have > on others. After all, I began this thread in direct response to references > in the training center discussion to graduates who could not find jobs on > account of the economy. That's one quick way to give up on looking for jobs > and giving up on oneself. The suggestion that my style of thinking is an > idealistic notion is laughable. Idealistic is putting faith in a government > system that will not be able to sustain social benefits forever. Social > Security is just one example of a benefit our generation will more than > likely not be able to enjoy when we need it, and that's not ideology, that's > economics. > I would argue the more you teach yourself to pull yourself up by your own > bootstraps, the less dependent you will be on the whims of Congress, an > employer, or your family. That's real independence. > And, to those who are not doing what they can to help blind people find > jobs, point me to them so's I can smack them about a bit! It's a disservice > not to do what we can to help each other out, but I'll say this much > speaking for myself, I only put my own neck out for people committed to hard > work. I've already been burned by someone I helped put into a good position. > It severely backfired and destroyed my reputation with that employer. Never > again. > Joe > -----Original Message----- > From: Littlefield, Tyler [mailto:tyler at tysdomain.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 12:08 PM > To: jsoro620 at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop Blaming the Economy > Joe: > Through this thread, my point hasn't been to say that blind people are not > capable of working. In fact, if that were my stance I wouldn't be working > through college right now, taking out loans to cover what scholarships do > not. My point is to say that your conservative "I have a job and so should > you--just pull yourself up by the bootstraps" ideal is very very flawed. You > began this thread initially complaining about people who blame the economy, > to which I agreed partially and said that while there are some people who > do, the economy makes it a lot harder to get jobs. It increases the > difficulty for us as blind applicants because we already have other hurtles > in the way--assistive technology, accomadations, etc etc. Basically I'm > saying it's not quite as easy as you make it sound, while boasting about > yourself and skills at the same time. Most people looking for jobs (even > sighted people) will agree here. You hold a pretty comfortable position > within the government, which I dare say is not really the same as applying > to a huge corporation or even a smaller business with minimal resources. > On 11/15/2013 11:15 PM, Joe wrote: >> Tyler, >> The difficulty in finding clients for your web development skills is a >> marketing issue, not a general employment concern. I'm not belittling >> your frustration of finding customers, but hustling for clients is >> part of the nature of an entrepreneur, regardless of whether you set >> up a full business or just sell yourself. Outside of Craigslist, which >> I would never recommend because of their general decline where service >> advertisement is concerned, I would look into Elance and Odesk. You'll >> need to be careful with clients interested in low bids over top >> talent, but that's going to be true no matter what website forum you >> set up shop. You'll need to advertise across social networks, pick up >> the phone and make cold calls, and yes, in some cases you'll need to >> volunteer at first to prove your worth before someone hires you. >> That's how I picked up Serotek as a client. The crazy thing is that >> even after you secure new business, you still need to devote time to >> marketing for more, because you never know when the safety net will drop > out from under you. >> I see you've set up a website, but it does nothing to motivate me to >> hire you as a developer. That's not a personal slam. It's candid >> feedback from a prospective customer. >> Finding business is a full-time job, and I understand if balancing >> that with school is problematic at this stage of your life. But, >> especially in your high demand field, more skill really does mean more >> job opportunities. Don't let the stupid media landscape of grim job >> statistics discourage you from pushing the kind of service you say >> you're qualified to deliver. It's not what the rest of the economy is >> up to. It's about what Tyler can specifically help my company do better. >> Remember, blind people were finding and keeping jobs long before we >> had today's technological conveniences. The NFB operation began with a >> dozen blind people working with far less at our disposal, and while >> some would argue the NFB is different because it's a social cause, >> it's because it was a social cause that it took grit and elbow grease >> to make it get off the ground. A nonprofit is a business like any >> other, and if our past leaders had just crossed their arms and said, >> "Well, crap, I guess that's that," we would have never seen the > organization we have today. >> Before I move onto Bridgit, let me ask you something in all sincerity. >> I've now written half a dozen posts with optimistic encouragement and >> suggestions. You may not like my viewpoint, but I think I've done a >> fair job of backing up my assertions. What's your alternative? All >> I've read from you is that the economy sucks, that jobs are too hard >> to get and that I'm basically delusional for thinking anything >> different. Never mind that I and many others are the evidence that >> disprove your gloom and doom way of thinking. Surely you are not >> suggesting we are anomalies. So, tell us, what would you suggest to >> the struggling unemployed person who is desperate for a job? Are you >> basically saying to give up and it sucks to be you? If you offer no >> alternative, you're basically advocating for the status quo, and >> you've already said the status quo is no good. So, I am genuinely confused > by your logic. >> Bridgit, >> First, let's touch on the point about the number of jobs. It would be >> great if all the jobs we wanted were available where we live. I think >> we have to reach a point where it makes sense to question whether the >> area we live in is open to the kind of qualifications I can bring to >> the market. For example, I would not live in Maine and hope to easily >> break into screen writing, nor would it be as feasible for me to be a >> rising star on Wall Street while living in Oklahoma. Is it possible? >> Anything's possible, but certain regions of the country are better suited > for my skills than others. >> Grant writing is one service I offer as part of my side business, and >> I live in the perfect place for it given the highest concentration of >> nonprofits in the country. The persistent evolution of the Internet of >> things will help bridge some of these gaps, but until our generation >> fully takes over the job market, we will still have to fight against >> outdated views that people need to be in a traditional office to get the > work done. >> Second, to your point about qualifications, it makes sense to think >> through what it is we're studying in school before investing in it. >> Liberal arts aren't going to make people that marketable outside of >> academic circles, and that's coming from a guy who may as well have >> graduated with a liberal arts degree. If the qualifications are >> severely restricting the kind of jobs I can get, something's wrong >> with what I studied. That's why I'm a big proponent of taking a gap >> year to figure out yourself and what it is you're really passionate >> about before spending thousands of dollars in a very expensive education > program. >> Next, employers are humans just like we are. Their reactions are going >> to run a diverse range, but job hunting is a numbers game. There's >> nothing we can do to eliminate people who take a dim view of blind >> people, and let's be honest. Their views would not change even if the >> economy was booming. If they did not discriminate against me for being >> blind, they might discriminate against me for being Hispanic, male, >> immigrant, tall, etc. The only cold comfort I can offer is keep >> applying or move to an area with more open minds. >> Finding a job after spending years as a stay-at-home parent is not >> easy, nor is it fair. A stay-at-home mom knows more about running a >> company than the CEO given her responsibilities of time management, >> budgeting, planning and executing, but you know, the more I think >> about these qualities, the more they could make for a compelling >> resume. You're a great writer. Something tells me you more than others >> will find creative ways of conveying your talents. Not every employer >> will bite, but the one that does will be an awesome match. >> And, generally speaking to the list, I guess that's all I have. There >> is such a thing is diminishing returns for people who refuse to listen >> to something other than the tired arguments that it's the fault of the >> economy or my disability or the next-door neighbor. I am accused of >> being too idealistic, but when real unemployment strikes, it's very >> easy to begin questioning your self-worth. When I'm down in the dumps >> and wondering if I stumbled down the wrong path in life, I would >> personally rather here of how I might just make my passion work >> instead of constant reminders that we have it so bad for being blind >> and for having to compete against so many applicants. >> To each his own. Me, there's a company I've been eager to work for >> these past few years. I believe next year I'll make a resolution to >> get off my ass and earn at least a part-time contract there. >> Statistics be damned. They'd be lucky to have me working for them. >> Arrogant? Absolutely, but it's one of many possible ways to separating >> the great from the good. The key is figuring out the approach that makes > you better. >> To your success, >> Joe >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net From jsoro620 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 01:02:12 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 20:02:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Professional Development Message-ID: <003001cee3f9$d110bce0$733236a0$@gmail.com> A few tips for professional development: First, make use of Monster.com. The NFB worked hard to make it accessible. Take advantage of it, but be very careful how public you make your profile. It's a fine line, but your privacy will appreciate it in the long run. Second, though I'm about to redesign my personal site, check out the articles on professional development I've already written on resumes, cover letters, interview tips, etc. The site is at: http://joeorozco.com/taxonomy/term/68 If you've already started a business, or want to start a business, check out my company blog. It's a work in progress, but I think you'll find some articles worth perusing: http://alphacommstrategies.com/blog Hope that gets you started. In a future company blog post I'll list the books I've read that have helped with building my business. I'm mostly writing it for the benefit of a fellow list subscriber who requested the list, but I'll publish it for the benefit of others. Joe From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 01:14:40 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 20:14:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sweeping In-Reply-To: <528953B4.6000601@tysdomain.com> References: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> <528953B4.6000601@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Hi, I use my Swiffer wet mop all the time. It does a great job of picking up dirt, dust, etc. The pads are easy to use and the mop is easy to store. It definitely cuts down on actal sweeping. For big stuff, I would sweep it into a coner or at least somewhere against a wall, then bend down and sweep it into a trash can or dust pan. As long as you're not sweeping up something dangerous like glass, you should be able to feel around to make sure you didn't miss anything in your pile. Hope this helps. On 11/17/13, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: > you have a few options. you can sweep stuff toward a corner, which > should help, or you can get one of them swiffer duster thingies. You > have to buy the pads, but they are useful. > On 11/17/2013 6:18 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: >> I know this isn't school related. But really need help. I have a wood >> floor and I am having a hard time keeping it clean because I can't see >> enough to sweep well. Mopping is not an issue. I have tried using a vacuum >> that claims it can clean wood. But it's not working either. Any >> suggestions? >> >> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >> (336) 988-6375 >> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 03:27:32 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 21:27:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Peter, What do you mean when you say people don't want to create additional income due to their children? I'm not sure I understand your post. I'm also very tired right now, so perhaps I'm not firing on all cylinders right now, smile. Bridgit Message: 22 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 16:15:40 -0600 From: "Peter Donahue" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy Message-ID: <001401cee250$38aa77c0$df1fbf48 at yourfsyly0jtwn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello Brigit and everyone,] This is a classic case for income diversification. Many whom we know developed additional income besides their regular job so they can meet their expenses and have another string to their bow due to the state of the job market. They also did it for their families.It discuss me when I hear that people don't want to create additional income due to their children, etc. One person's excuses for not creating additional income to supplement that from their job is another person's reason for doing so. We see this over and over again. Folks would be advised to smell the opportunities instead of the problems. Peter Donahue From treyman19 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 03:36:51 2013 From: treyman19 at gmail.com (Trey Bradley) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 21:36:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for an apartment Message-ID: <33BC6F26-5B9F-4172-9555-E92CE97C13C7@gmail.com> Hi I need help with getting a apartment and I was wondering what is a good website for looking for an apartment. Sent from my iPhone From carlymih at comcast.net Mon Nov 18 03:49:37 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 19:49:37 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for an apartment In-Reply-To: <33BC6F26-5B9F-4172-9555-E92CE97C13C7@gmail.com> References: <33BC6F26-5B9F-4172-9555-E92CE97C13C7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good afternoon, Try going to the websight in whichever is your chosen region, and look there. That is how we found our polace in Berkeley,, California. for today, Car 408-209-3239Bradley wrote: >Hi I need help with getting a apartment and I was wondering what is >a good website for looking for an apartment. > >Sent from my iPhone >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Mon Nov 18 04:00:51 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 20:00:51 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Sweeping In-Reply-To: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> References: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi, Bobbi, So, the vacuum doesn't work? Rather than hastle sweeping, I pull the vacuum on the lynolium kitchen floor. That works for me. I have found, though, that often it is mor effective simply to pull the vacuum or mop, making sure your feet are bare so you can better "see" what you're doing. Give that a try and please, let us know? for today,, Car 408-209-3239 /2013, Bobbi Pompey wrote: >I know this isn't school related. But really need help. I have a >wood floor and I am having a hard time keeping it clean because I >can't see enough to sweep well. Mopping is not an issue. I have >tried using a vacuum that claims it can clean wood. But it's not >working either. Any suggestions? > >Bobbi A. L. Pompey >(336) 988-6375 >pompey2010 at yahoo.com >http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 04:14:13 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 21:14:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for an apartment In-Reply-To: <52898e72.4c19310a.3d47.173bSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <33BC6F26-5B9F-4172-9555-E92CE97C13C7@gmail.com> <52898e72.4c19310a.3d47.173bSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: You can also search on your local Craigslist, or use www.rent.com or www.forrent.com Arielle On 11/17/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Good afternoon, > > Try going to the websight in whichever is your chosen region, and > look there. That is how we found our polace in Berkeley,, California. > for today, Car > 408-209-3239Bradley wrote: >>Hi I need help with getting a apartment and I was wondering what is >>a good website for looking for an apartment. >> >>Sent from my iPhone >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Nov 18 04:33:24 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 22:33:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Stop blaming the economy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Joe and others, Let me begin by restating that I agree with your assessment on this topic. Having said that, I also know that finding or creating employment isn't always easy. This doesn't mean I expect it to be easy; it shouldn't be, but the most motivated, intelligent, talented people can seek relentlessly for employment and not find it, or attempt creating employment opportunities and not be able to drum up enough business. I think there's several reasons for this though. I find people are less likely to discriminate against me because of blindness or doubt my abilities when I walk in with confidence and look put together. I wear make-up, dress fashionably. I look at people when they speak to me; I use hand and arm gestures when speaking; I smile and try to be pleasant. People see me following social norms, looking together. I use whatever nonvisual tools I can to accomplish things, which actually helps me win over people instead of relying on those around me for things I could do on my own. All this creates an aura for people stating I'm capable; I'm normal. If I can look, dress and act like those who aren't blind, they I can probably do fill in the blank. I think how we conduct ourselves goes a long way in getting society to accept us. So sometimes we find ourselves on the outside because we expect so much from others about accepting blindness, but we make our situation uncomfortable for others. We want a job, feel entitled to one, but we don't think we need to meet society half-way. Learn some grooming, pick up a few fashion tips, follow some social customs, be confident, not cocky. Right or wrong, employers look at the outward stuff and begin making determinations right off the bat based on appearances. It may be shallow, but it's reality. I agree, Joe, that we should really discover what we want to do with our life before spending thousands of dollars on an education that may not help us towards our goals. If you really want to work with computers, a liberal arts degree probably won't help. If you want to teach grammar school, a philosophy degree may not be the best route. I am a huge believer in taking time after high school to figure a few things out. I'm not old, but trust me, once you hit your 30's, you will find you've changed a bit since your 20's. College will always be there. You can go at any time. Hell, I had classes with people in their 50's, some getting their first degree. There's nothing wrong with taking time to discover what you want in life. This doesn't mean you become a drifter and live off society, but get a job, be involved in your community, even take a couple of college classes, but what you want at 18, 19, 20, will most likely change. Having said that, when I said Ross has had problems finding jobs because he's over-qualified, I mean that he's tried applying for these jobs just to find something new while he finishes his second degree and not switching careers to something he's over-qualified for. The sitch in a nutshell is that Ross is finally going to school for what he originally wanted to do, which is software development. Fifteen years ago, he didn't think a blind person could be successful in the computer field, so instead of pursuing his dream, he got a degree in psychology. There's that changing your mind thing, ha-ha! He's worked in the human services field for years now but hates it, especially his current job, which has literally zero upward movement, the benefits are terrible and the pay isn't great, and they have dumped extra work-loads on him the last few years with no extra pay. He's applied for other human service jobs along with jobs at Google and Yahoo, financial jobs and finally hotel reservation agent jobs, telemarketing and even a fastfood manager. The last couple of jobs, he was told he was over-qualified. The financial job was ready to hire him, but HR questioned his ability because he was blind. The other places didn't even give him an interview. So while he finishes this degree, he continues to look for new employment until he has the degree to work in the industry he wants too, but obviously it hasn't been easy endeavor. I'm not being negative but portraying the reality of the situation, hoping to demonstrate that this is how it is for many people, blind and sighted. As for me, I have my writing, but I love being a stay-at-home mom. We are able to live on one income, and I can't imagine sending my son to daycare. There's nothing wrong with daycare, I just made the personal decision to stay at home. Stay-at-home parents work endlessly around the clock, and as you point out, Joe, we actually have a lot of great attributes that would be an asset to any employer. Taking care of children and a home are hard work, but it's a job that I've found to be the most rewarding. My point in my earlier post was that it can be difficult for a former stay-at-home parent to find employment after years of being out of the job market. If creative and crafty enough, you may be able to convince an employer of your marketable skills from experience of being at home, but not everyone may have the ability to spin their experience this way. I rarely bring blindness into the discussion because I see little reason to do so. To be honest, I get tired of the entitlement many blind people feel or the complaining blind people do. We are blind, life's not fair, I can't do this, people treat me this way... Shut up, get off your but and do something about it. I've been sighted and blind; I have lived in both situations. Once I received my training, I made an active choice to move on with life, and honestly, I haven't found life overly difficult or tedious now that I'm blind. Yes, attitudes stink when it comes to perceptions of blindness, but you know what, a lot of blind people are perpetuating these perceptions. It's not like it's only sighted people buying into negative attitudes. I've had more blind people doubt my ability to parent than sighted people. At the end of the day though, we are as capable. Like Joe said, blind people worked long before the advent of current technology. And what's the Federation fighting for if we keep making excuses as to why we aren't employed? I have personally met blind lawyers, teachers, engineers, business owners, medical doctors, blah, blah, blah. It would appear using blindness as an excuse grows weaker and weaker. And yet I know from personal experience how difficult the job search can be. But to say it's blindness... I'm not sure we can use this excuse. I don't look at this as a blind issue but as a human issue. And it's not even necessarily the economy. There's two sides to every coin, and I understand we can't make snap judgments or over-simplify the issue. I do think blaming things in general just becomes an excuse to not do something, but I also know there are hard-working people doing their best, and sometimes we need to have a little understanding and compassion. Okay, running off little sleep and food. Started ranting a long time ago. Sorry, grin. Bridgit From mistydbradley at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 13:41:30 2013 From: mistydbradley at gmail.com (Misty Dawn Bradley) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 08:41:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for an apartment In-Reply-To: <33BC6F26-5B9F-4172-9555-E92CE97C13C7@gmail.com> References: <33BC6F26-5B9F-4172-9555-E92CE97C13C7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <994E458303404A85BB1462BDBCEF9D57@MistyBradleyPC> There are websites also that have info about apartments and also reviews of the apartments at: www.apartmentratings.com and www.apartmentguide.com Misty -----Original Message----- From: Trey Bradley Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 10:36 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for an apartment Hi I need help with getting a apartment and I was wondering what is a good website for looking for an apartment. Sent from my iPhone _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Mon Nov 18 14:14:50 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 14:14:50 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Sweeping In-Reply-To: <528953B4.6000601@tysdomain.com> References: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> <528953B4.6000601@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: I think the issue is that it's difficult to find a really good vacuum. I have tile floors and I had to purchase an expensive vacuum in order to pick up off the tile floor. Make sure you check the suction in the hose often and empty out the dirt cup. You really have to maintain the vacuum well in order for it to be effective. I really never sweep because I've found a vacuum solution that works. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:40 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sweeping you have a few options. you can sweep stuff toward a corner, which should help, or you can get one of them swiffer duster thingies. You have to buy the pads, but they are useful. On 11/17/2013 6:18 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: > I know this isn't school related. But really need help. I have a wood floor and I am having a hard time keeping it clean because I can't see enough to sweep well. Mopping is not an issue. I have tried using a vacuum that claims it can clean wood. But it's not working either. Any suggestions? > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From william.bowman38 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 17:09:37 2013 From: william.bowman38 at gmail.com (William Bowman) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:09:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] using jaws for school Message-ID: Hi, My name is Will and I have a question for you all. I am in the 10th grade and I'm starting to use jaws to help me with my homework. I'm hoping you all can give me some advice. I have trouble on the internet finding information on a website with jaws. I feel like using it is slower than looking at the screen but I'm trying to avoid since it hurts my eyes. When I'm doing research online I don't always find information quickly on a new website and I want to know how you all quickly find new information with jaws. Most wbeiste I go to have tons of links and lots of content. I've been taught some of the quick comands like pressing letter h for headings and e for an edit field and insert plus enter to find text, but is there a faster way? I get frustrated with places i haven't been before because I don't always know where the information I want is, and I'm tired of having to arrow up and down through a site for 10 minutes to find what I want. Sometimes I'll find a story, but it will be interrupted by advertisements and stuff, and it takes me forever to figure out where I am. Does anybody have any advice? I'm trying to get better at it now so I don't have to worry about it in the future. Thanks, will. From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 17:44:50 2013 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:44:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sweeping In-Reply-To: References: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> <528953B4.6000601@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Wasif, What kind of vacuum is it? Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Nov 18, 2013, at 9:14 AM, "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: > > I think the issue is that it's difficult to find a really good vacuum. I have tile floors and I had to purchase an expensive vacuum in order to pick up off the tile floor. Make sure you check the suction in the hose often and empty out the dirt cup. You really have to maintain the vacuum well in order for it to be effective. I really never sweep because I've found a vacuum solution that works. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sweeping > > you have a few options. you can sweep stuff toward a corner, which should help, or you can get one of them swiffer duster thingies. You have to buy the pads, but they are useful. >> On 11/17/2013 6:18 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: >> I know this isn't school related. But really need help. I have a wood floor and I am having a hard time keeping it clean because I can't see enough to sweep well. Mopping is not an issue. I have tried using a vacuum that claims it can clean wood. But it's not working either. Any suggestions? >> >> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >> (336) 988-6375 >> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 17:48:02 2013 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:48:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Sweeping In-Reply-To: References: <54CF7F49-CE61-45F8-9006-995776E0E0AE@yahoo.com> <528953B4.6000601@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: Wasif, what kind of vacuum is it? Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Nov 18, 2013, at 9:14 AM, "Wasif, Zunaira" wrote: > > I think the issue is that it's difficult to find a really good vacuum. I have tile floors and I had to purchase an expensive vacuum in order to pick up off the tile floor. Make sure you check the suction in the hose often and empty out the dirt cup. You really have to maintain the vacuum well in order for it to be effective. I really never sweep because I've found a vacuum solution that works. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler > Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:40 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Sweeping > > you have a few options. you can sweep stuff toward a corner, which should help, or you can get one of them swiffer duster thingies. You have to buy the pads, but they are useful. >> On 11/17/2013 6:18 PM, Bobbi Pompey wrote: >> I know this isn't school related. But really need help. I have a wood floor and I am having a hard time keeping it clean because I can't see enough to sweep well. Mopping is not an issue. I have tried using a vacuum that claims it can clean wood. But it's not working either. Any suggestions? >> >> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >> (336) 988-6375 >> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com From tbrown.brl at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 17:53:47 2013 From: tbrown.brl at gmail.com (Tom Brown) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 10:53:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] using jaws for school In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/18/13, William Bowman wrote: > Hi, > My name is Will and I have a question for you all. I am in the 10th > grade and I'm starting to use jaws to help me with my homework. I'm > hoping you all can give me some advice. I have trouble on the internet > finding information on a website with jaws. I feel like using it is > slower than looking at the screen but I'm trying to avoid since it > hurts my eyes. > > When I'm doing research online I don't always find information quickly > on a new website and I want to know how you all quickly find new > information with jaws. Most wbeiste I go to have tons of links and > lots of content. I've been taught some of the quick comands like > pressing letter h for headings and e for an edit field and insert plus > enter to find text, but is there a faster way? I get frustrated with > places i haven't been before because I don't always know where the > information I want is, and I'm tired of having to arrow up and down > through a site for 10 minutes to find what I want. Sometimes I'll find > a story, but it will be interrupted by advertisements and stuff, and > it takes me forever to figure out where I am. Does anybody have any > advice? I'm trying to get better at it now so I don't have to worry > about it in the future. Thanks, will. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com > Hi Will, First of all, you have to understand that every website is not going to be JAWS friendly. There will be some websites that are easy to navigate, and there will be some that you can;'t navigate at all. Personally, I use "H" to go through my headings. I also use "N," which should take you past all of the links and ads that you don't want to read. I also use "P," which takes you to paragraphs. Most of the content in a website is in a paragraph, so that should work most of the time. From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 18 18:02:31 2013 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 13:02:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for an apartment In-Reply-To: <33BC6F26-5B9F-4172-9555-E92CE97C13C7@gmail.com> References: <33BC6F26-5B9F-4172-9555-E92CE97C13C7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6474BF0E-4B8E-4C3C-BA31-C464541FBDDB@yahoo.com> In my experience. There may not be one single website that will have all apartments in that area listed. I did a good search to find all apartments in a certain area. Then I looked up each individual place. Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Nov 17, 2013, at 10:36 PM, Trey Bradley wrote: > > Hi I need help with getting a apartment and I was wondering what is a good website for looking for an apartment. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com From crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 21:56:41 2013 From: crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com (Kaiti Shelton) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 16:56:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] using jaws for school In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Will, Welcome to the list! I use H a lot, plus N and P. Insert F7 is a really handy command in instances when you know the link or series of links you'll need to use to get to a particular page, or if you're on a research site and want to see what the different pages linked to that page are to save time. It will bring up a dialog box that you can arrow through to avoid all the fluff. There is also a read all command which you can use once you find a chunk of text you want to have read. That command is jaws key+A. That should save you a lot of down arrowing. Like most things, getting comfortable with jaws is just something that gets easier with practice. Most people find that after a while they get annoyed with how slow the speech is and speed it up, so once you can understand quick speech and do that it won't take as long to get the information either. Most of the people I know have their speaking rates at 65 percent or higher and mine is usually at 70, but these people and myself have all used jaws for years. You'll get there though. :) On 11/18/13, Tom Brown wrote: > On 11/18/13, William Bowman wrote: >> Hi, >> My name is Will and I have a question for you all. I am in the 10th >> grade and I'm starting to use jaws to help me with my homework. I'm >> hoping you all can give me some advice. I have trouble on the internet >> finding information on a website with jaws. I feel like using it is >> slower than looking at the screen but I'm trying to avoid since it >> hurts my eyes. >> >> When I'm doing research online I don't always find information quickly >> on a new website and I want to know how you all quickly find new >> information with jaws. Most wbeiste I go to have tons of links and >> lots of content. I've been taught some of the quick comands like >> pressing letter h for headings and e for an edit field and insert plus >> enter to find text, but is there a faster way? I get frustrated with >> places i haven't been before because I don't always know where the >> information I want is, and I'm tired of having to arrow up and down >> through a site for 10 minutes to find what I want. Sometimes I'll find >> a story, but it will be interrupted by advertisements and stuff, and >> it takes me forever to figure out where I am. Does anybody have any >> advice? I'm trying to get better at it now so I don't have to worry >> about it in the future. Thanks, will. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com >> > Hi Will, > > First of all, you have to understand that every website is not going > to be JAWS friendly. There will be some websites that are easy to > navigate, and there will be some that you can;'t navigate at all. > Personally, I use "H" to go through my headings. I also use "N," which > should take you past all of the links and ads that you don't want to > read. I also use "P," which takes you to paragraphs. Most of the > content in a website is in a paragraph, so that should work most of > the time. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com > -- Kaiti From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 22:19:30 2013 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 17:19:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: Important Audio Access FM Announcement Plus Tonight's Djd Invasion Message-ID: Hi All! Can you believe it's November 18 already? We can. And we're excited about it here at Audio Access FM! This is my favorite time of the year, and I can't wait to share that holiday cheer with all of you! Tune in tonight to Audio Access FM at 7:45PM eastern, 15 minutes before the Djd Invasion starts, to hear some exciting news about what we'll be doing to bring holiday cheer into your lives and into the lives of others. >From our Make A Wish Fund Raiser to our all new audio greeting card system we'll be offering and more. This is going to be the best holiday season in Audio Access FM's history! Or at least, we hope so. Then be sure to stay tuned afterwards for The Djd Invasion Show. Join me for two hours of musical variety, entertainment and fun. Got a request during the show? Give me a call at 516-434-2552 Skype in at audioaccess.fm Make requests from my music library at http://www.audioaccess.fm/requests4djd and tune in the announcement, show or both by going to http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen So tell your friends, spread the word, d join us for big news and fun tonight! Hope to see you there! >From David Dunphy From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 18 22:41:12 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 15:41:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] using jaws for school In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My favorite JAWS shortcut is control-F for find. Just press control-F and type a word that you want to find on the page. For example, if you know you are reading an article about bats, and want to skip past all the extraneous links and ads, you can type control-F, the word bats, and then enter, and it'll take you straight to the first instance of the word "bats" on the page. If you want to repeat the search and go down to the next time your word appears, press F3 to re-run the search. Best of luck! Arielle On 11/18/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: > Hi Will, > > Welcome to the list! > > I use H a lot, plus N and P. Insert F7 is a really handy command in > instances when you know the link or series of links you'll need to use > to get to a particular page, or if you're on a research site and want > to see what the different pages linked to that page are to save time. > It will bring up a dialog box that you can arrow through to avoid all > the fluff. There is also a read all command which you can use once > you find a chunk of text you want to have read. That command is jaws > key+A. That should save you a lot of down arrowing. > > Like most things, getting comfortable with jaws is just something that > gets easier with practice. Most people find that after a while they > get annoyed with how slow the speech is and speed it up, so once you > can understand quick speech and do that it won't take as long to get > the information either. Most of the people I know have their speaking > rates at 65 percent or higher and mine is usually at 70, but these > people and myself have all used jaws for years. You'll get there > though. :) > > On 11/18/13, Tom Brown wrote: >> On 11/18/13, William Bowman wrote: >>> Hi, >>> My name is Will and I have a question for you all. I am in the 10th >>> grade and I'm starting to use jaws to help me with my homework. I'm >>> hoping you all can give me some advice. I have trouble on the internet >>> finding information on a website with jaws. I feel like using it is >>> slower than looking at the screen but I'm trying to avoid since it >>> hurts my eyes. >>> >>> When I'm doing research online I don't always find information quickly >>> on a new website and I want to know how you all quickly find new >>> information with jaws. Most wbeiste I go to have tons of links and >>> lots of content. I've been taught some of the quick comands like >>> pressing letter h for headings and e for an edit field and insert plus >>> enter to find text, but is there a faster way? I get frustrated with >>> places i haven't been before because I don't always know where the >>> information I want is, and I'm tired of having to arrow up and down >>> through a site for 10 minutes to find what I want. Sometimes I'll find >>> a story, but it will be interrupted by advertisements and stuff, and >>> it takes me forever to figure out where I am. Does anybody have any >>> advice? I'm trying to get better at it now so I don't have to worry >>> about it in the future. Thanks, will. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com >>> >> Hi Will, >> >> First of all, you have to understand that every website is not going >> to be JAWS friendly. There will be some websites that are easy to >> navigate, and there will be some that you can;'t navigate at all. >> Personally, I use "H" to go through my headings. I also use "N," which >> should take you past all of the links and ads that you don't want to >> read. I also use "P," which takes you to paragraphs. Most of the >> content in a website is in a paragraph, so that should work most of >> the time. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Kaiti > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 01:35:16 2013 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 20:35:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Apologies About Tonight's Audio Access FM Announcement That Didn't Air Please Read Message-ID: Hi All! Due to a technological problem, the Audio Access FM announcement didn't air as scheduled. It will however air at 10 PM eastern tonight after the invasion. So make sure you tune in and hang with the invasion show til then by going to http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen See you there! >From David From gloria.graves at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 13:17:48 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 07:17:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Recording videos on the iPhone Message-ID: <54195551-A7BA-4A94-9BCD-47B72EC038C2@gmail.com> Hi all, I was wondering if someone could give me some help with being able to record a video on my iPhone. Before I updated to the newest iOS, I was able to just go to the camera and there would be a button to record a video. Unless I am missing something I no longer see that option. I'm sorry if this seems like a silly thing to ask, or obvious to figure out, but I have tried and tried and have had no success. Any help would be appreciated thanks. I am a little slow when it comes to certain pieces of technology. Sent from my iPhone From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 13:28:54 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 08:28:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Recording videos on the iPhone In-Reply-To: <54195551-A7BA-4A94-9BCD-47B72EC038C2@gmail.com> References: <54195551-A7BA-4A94-9BCD-47B72EC038C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02ACF560-8545-4978-885F-5B93EFAA46B5@gmail.com> In the camera app, go down to where it says camera mode: photo. Flick to change it to video, and now the button for taking a picture becomes the record and stop button. You should be good from their! Jewel Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Gloria wrote: > > Hi all, > I was wondering if someone could give me some help with being able to record a video on my iPhone. Before I updated to the newest iOS, I was able to just go to the camera and there would be a button to record a video. Unless I am missing something I no longer see that option. I'm sorry if this seems like a silly thing to ask, or obvious to figure out, but I have tried and tried and have had no success. Any help would be appreciated thanks. I am a little slow when it comes to certain pieces of technology. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From gloria.graves at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 13:57:02 2013 From: gloria.graves at gmail.com (Gloria) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 07:57:02 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Recording videos on the iPhone In-Reply-To: <02ACF560-8545-4978-885F-5B93EFAA46B5@gmail.com> References: <54195551-A7BA-4A94-9BCD-47B72EC038C2@gmail.com> <02ACF560-8545-4978-885F-5B93EFAA46B5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9FEFDCC3-0888-4A03-AD0A-66A7926771B9@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 19, 2013, at 7:28 AM, Jewel wrote: > > In the camera app, go down to where it says camera mode: photo. Flick to change it to video, and now the button for taking a picture becomes the record and stop button. You should be good from their! > Jewel > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 19, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Gloria wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I was wondering if someone could give me some help with being able to record a video on my iPhone. Before I updated to the newest iOS, I was able to just go to the camera and there would be a button to record a video. Unless I am missing something I no longer see that option. I'm sorry if this seems like a silly thing to ask, or obvious to figure out, but I have tried and tried and have had no success. Any help would be appreciated thanks. I am a little slow when it comes to certain pieces of technology. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gloria.graves%40gmail.com wow! Thank you so much :-) I couldn't believe how simple that was. Is something that I should have figured out, but your help is most appreciated. From dandrews at visi.com Tue Nov 19 15:09:15 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 09:09:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Passing of Adrienne Asch Message-ID: I am sorry to have to tell you of the passing of long-time Federationist Adrienne Asch this morning at about 8:00 a.m. Adrienne had been fighting cancer for the past year and a half or so. Among other things, she served for many years on the Scholarship Committee, and passionately believed in education for blind persons. Dave From kathrynwebster at me.com Tue Nov 19 17:34:21 2013 From: kathrynwebster at me.com (Kathryn Webster) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 12:34:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] using jaws for school In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52C223E0-1E16-4C3B-A3BE-FE44343E87DB@me.com> Does anyone have ideas of resources to learn jaws from scratch? I use the Mac currant lot but would love to learn jaws as well. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 18, 2013, at 5:41 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > > My favorite JAWS shortcut is control-F for find. Just press control-F > and type a word that you want to find on the page. For example, if you > know you are reading an article about bats, and want to skip past all > the extraneous links and ads, you can type control-F, the word bats, > and then enter, and it'll take you straight to the first instance of > the word "bats" on the page. If you want to repeat the search and go > down to the next time your word appears, press F3 to re-run the > search. Best of luck! > Arielle > >> On 11/18/13, Kaiti Shelton wrote: >> Hi Will, >> >> Welcome to the list! >> >> I use H a lot, plus N and P. Insert F7 is a really handy command in >> instances when you know the link or series of links you'll need to use >> to get to a particular page, or if you're on a research site and want >> to see what the different pages linked to that page are to save time. >> It will bring up a dialog box that you can arrow through to avoid all >> the fluff. There is also a read all command which you can use once >> you find a chunk of text you want to have read. That command is jaws >> key+A. That should save you a lot of down arrowing. >> >> Like most things, getting comfortable with jaws is just something that >> gets easier with practice. Most people find that after a while they >> get annoyed with how slow the speech is and speed it up, so once you >> can understand quick speech and do that it won't take as long to get >> the information either. Most of the people I know have their speaking >> rates at 65 percent or higher and mine is usually at 70, but these >> people and myself have all used jaws for years. You'll get there >> though. :) >> >>> On 11/18/13, Tom Brown wrote: >>>> On 11/18/13, William Bowman wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> My name is Will and I have a question for you all. I am in the 10th >>>> grade and I'm starting to use jaws to help me with my homework. I'm >>>> hoping you all can give me some advice. I have trouble on the internet >>>> finding information on a website with jaws. I feel like using it is >>>> slower than looking at the screen but I'm trying to avoid since it >>>> hurts my eyes. >>>> >>>> When I'm doing research online I don't always find information quickly >>>> on a new website and I want to know how you all quickly find new >>>> information with jaws. Most wbeiste I go to have tons of links and >>>> lots of content. I've been taught some of the quick comands like >>>> pressing letter h for headings and e for an edit field and insert plus >>>> enter to find text, but is there a faster way? I get frustrated with >>>> places i haven't been before because I don't always know where the >>>> information I want is, and I'm tired of having to arrow up and down >>>> through a site for 10 minutes to find what I want. Sometimes I'll find >>>> a story, but it will be interrupted by advertisements and stuff, and >>>> it takes me forever to figure out where I am. Does anybody have any >>>> advice? I'm trying to get better at it now so I don't have to worry >>>> about it in the future. Thanks, will. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tbrown.brl%40gmail.com >>> Hi Will, >>> >>> First of all, you have to understand that every website is not going >>> to be JAWS friendly. There will be some websites that are easy to >>> navigate, and there will be some that you can;'t navigate at all. >>> Personally, I use "H" to go through my headings. I also use "N," which >>> should take you past all of the links and ads that you don't want to >>> read. I also use "P," which takes you to paragraphs. Most of the >>> content in a website is in a paragraph, so that should work most of >>> the time. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com >> >> >> -- >> Kaiti >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kathrynwebster%40me.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Nov 19 20:56:30 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:56:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Using JAWS for school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Will, Just a little note of encouragement, here's what I hope is words of hope: Because of a nerve condition, I can't use Braille efficiently enough. I use it, but for school, it just wasn't going to work without being long and tedious. I'm totally blind, and I pretty much relied on JAWS, and I can inform you that I was able to research, complete assignments, read material, take quizzes and exams, etc. and do it efficiently and just as quick as my sighted classmates in most cases. I never required double time for exams, not even once in four years, and being a creative writing major, my workloads were heavy on reading and writing, and I was able to keep up and complete work, in and out of class, without taking longer than others. I'm now an editor, and I rely on JAWS to edit. Depending on what I'm doing, it can take a little longer to do some things, but not inordinate amounts of time. I'm able to edit pretty efficiently with JAWS. I would totally use Braille if I could, but I've made JAWS work for me, and I know others can too. Also, I was sighted until I was 22, and personally, I find it easier to use JAWS when reading text online than I did sighted, and I was a really good, quick reader when sighted. Hope this helps. Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 12:09:37 -0500 From: William Bowman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] using jaws for school Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, My name is Will and I have a question for you all. I am in the 10th grade and I'm starting to use jaws to help me with my homework. I'm hoping you all can give me some advice. I have trouble on the internet finding information on a website with jaws. I feel like using it is slower than looking at the screen but I'm trying to avoid since it hurts my eyes. When I'm doing research online I don't always find information quickly on a new website and I want to know how you all quickly find new information with jaws. Most wbeiste I go to have tons of links and lots of content. I've been taught some of the quick comands like pressing letter h for headings and e for an edit field and insert plus enter to find text, but is there a faster way? I get frustrated with places i haven't been before because I don't always know where the information I want is, and I'm tired of having to arrow up and down through a site for 10 minutes to find what I want. Sometimes I'll find a story, but it will be interrupted by advertisements and stuff, and it takes me forever to figure out where I am. Does anybody have any advice? I'm trying to get better at it now so I don't have to worry about it in the future. Thanks, will. From lilrichie411 at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 23:05:04 2013 From: lilrichie411 at gmail.com (Jordan Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 17:05:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question Message-ID: <510CCF47-9F8D-4BCD-BEA9-8E2C0F994399@gmail.com> Hey Everybody! I was looking for a Braille copy of "Where the Sidewalk Ends" and came across one at a place called Future Aids: The Braille Superstore. Do any of you have experiences with them? How were those experiences? Is there anyone else who might have one [I want a hard copy Braille copy]. I have checked Amazon and eBay to no avail. Thanks so much! Jordan Richardson Jordan Richardson Community Corps Member Minnesota Reading Corps. |. AmeriCorps State & National Sent from my iPad From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Tue Nov 19 23:30:08 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:30:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone going to Washington seminar? Message-ID: Hi I'm looking for a roommate for washington seminar to split the cost. I am coming from NY. I am willing to share with more than one person. Dogs are fine. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 From jsoro620 at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 02:21:51 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:21:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using JAWS for school In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000001cee597$46f81950$d4e84bf0$@gmail.com> Hi, using the letter N as a navigation key works well to get past some of the junk you might find on web pages. With JAWS you can also use the greater than and less than keys to jump to the end or beginning of an element like lists. Installing ad block add-ons for both IE and Firefox is another suggestion. On Firefox I also installed an addon to block social networking which accounts for part of the clutter you see at the top of a lot of articles. In general though you have to visit a site enough times to find out how the information is laid out. Joe From lilliepennington at fuse.net Wed Nov 20 02:34:10 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:34:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using JAWS for school In-Reply-To: <000001cee597$46f81950$d4e84bf0$@gmail.com> References: <000001cee597$46f81950$d4e84bf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57028ADA-00B3-4E2F-9CDD-AB4DBCC94863@fuse.net> Hi. Going off what Bridget said, I like using jaws for extended writing assignments because i think it helps me catch more grammatical things. Also I think it sometimes helps just to hear things. Good luck in your jaws studies. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 19, 2013, at 9:21 PM, "Joe" wrote: > > Hi, using the letter N as a navigation key works well to get past some of > the junk you might find on web pages. With JAWS you can also use the greater > than and less than keys to jump to the end or beginning of an element like > lists. Installing ad block add-ons for both IE and Firefox is another > suggestion. On Firefox I also installed an addon to block social networking > which accounts for part of the clutter you see at the top of a lot of > articles. In general though you have to visit a site enough times to find > out how the information is laid out. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 02:42:23 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:42:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone going to Washington seminar? Message-ID: Hi I'm looking for a roommate for washington seminar to split the cost. I am coming from NY. I am willing to share with more than one person. Dogs are fine. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Wed Nov 20 02:44:22 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 02:44:22 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone going to Washington seminar? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8aa3ca57884e44c99a7d2151dae4e37c@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> You posted this before. I'm planning on being there, so write me off list, and we'll discuss whatever. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Lavar Phillips [lavarjphillips at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 8:42 PM To: List Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone going to Washington seminar? Hi I'm looking for a roommate for washington seminar to split the cost. I am coming from NY. I am willing to share with more than one person. Dogs are fine. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 02:52:11 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:52:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone going to Washington seminar? In-Reply-To: <8aa3ca57884e44c99a7d2151dae4e37c@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <8aa3ca57884e44c99a7d2151dae4e37c@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Sorry did not mean to post it twice. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 You posted this before. I'm planning on being there, so write me off list, and we'll discuss whatever. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Lavar Phillips [ lavarjphillips at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 8:42 PM To: List Subject: [nabs-l] Anyone going to Washington seminar? Hi I'm looking for a roommate for washington seminar to split the cost. I am coming from NY. I am willing to share with more than one person. Dogs are fine. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 03:39:47 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:39:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question References: <510CCF47-9F8D-4BCD-BEA9-8E2C0F994399@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8462C0FE5E894E9B827DFFC5E4C69BCE@HP30910210001> my experience with this store is very good. you could also try seedlings braille books for children. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jordan Richardson" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 4:05 PM Subject: [nabs-l] A Question Hey Everybody! I was looking for a Braille copy of "Where the Sidewalk Ends" and came across one at a place called Future Aids: The Braille Superstore. Do any of you have experiences with them? How were those experiences? Is there anyone else who might have one [I want a hard copy Braille copy]. I have checked Amazon and eBay to no avail. Thanks so much! Jordan Richardson Jordan Richardson Community Corps Member Minnesota Reading Corps. |. AmeriCorps State & National Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 05:09:40 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:09:40 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nabs-presidents] NABS Fundraising Committee Meeting References: <90C24D9B-A97F-4AC2-9084-E9B15CA996D5@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <96A9DD3B-3FA7-43AD-9A9B-7857AF7F030A@gmail.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: Candice Chapman > Subject: [Nabs-presidents] NABS Fundraising Committee Meeting > Date: November 18, 2013 at 6:37:01 PM PST > To: "nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org" > Reply-To: List for NABS State Presidents > > Hello all, > > We all know how important fundraising is to accomplishing the goals and activities of our organization. We also know the key to the success of a fundraiser relies heavily on the folks behind the scenes putting it all together. That being said the NABS Fundraising Committee needs your help! We will be holding a meeting on Wednesday, November 20th to begin working on plans for our upcoming fundraisers. If you are interested in joining our committee please call in at 8:30 p.m central (9:30 est., 6:30 pacific) using conference number:605-475-6700 passcode: 7869673 > > We look forward to hearing from you! > > Warm regards, > > Candice Chapman > NABS Fundraising Committee Co-Chair > > > > _______________________________________________ > Nabs-presidents mailing list > Nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-presidents_nfbnet.org From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 05:10:34 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:10:34 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NABS Update submissions References: <9DBBA637-FDDE-41A6-BC66-49CE14495DBA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018551FC-1C61-439E-842B-D575264D2182@gmail.com> Begin forwarded message: > From: Darian Smith > Subject: NABS Update submissions > Date: November 18, 2013 at 10:17:23 AM PST > To: List for NABS State Presidents > > Hello: > NABS is looking for updates from our various student divisions. so, should you have any updates from a convention or recent student event, or change in leadership or anything else really exciting and interesting, please send them to me at dsmithnfb at gmail.com by Friday at 5p.m. Pacific time and we’ll include them(as appropriate and as submitted). > Thank you in advance for helping to keep us all connected!. > > Darian Smith > 2nd Vice President, National Association of Blind Students > dsmithnfb at gmail.com > > www.nabslink.org > Follow the National Association of Blind Students on twitter: @nabslink >> >> Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further >> Donate your car to the National Federation of the Blind today! >> For more information, please visit: www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 > From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 20 06:57:19 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 00:57:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: An Immersion into Excel 2013 is now available for purchase Message-ID: > >I'm pleased to announce a new textbook release. > > > >An Immersion into Excel 2013 with JAWS for Windows is now available for >purchase. > > > >For more information and to review the table of contents, please visit: > > > >http://www.blindtraining.com/shop/Excel13-JFW14-15.htm > > > > > > > >CathyAnne > > > >CathyAnne Murtha > >Director > >Access Technology Institute > >cathy at blindtraining.com > >www.blindtraining.com > >Twitter: www.twitter.com/AccessTechInst > > >Facebook: www.facebook.com/blindtraining > > > >_______________________________________________ >News mailing list >News at lists.blindtraining.com >http://lists.blindtraining.com/listinfo.cgi/news-blindtraining.com From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Nov 20 16:01:14 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 09:01:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world Message-ID: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Hi, all. I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the following things: 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with because he is blind. 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind women. 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." Please help. Beth From johnniejduran at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 16:30:45 2013 From: johnniejduran at gmail.com (johnnie Jean duran) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 09:30:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi, I can totally relate to you, due to the fact that I was going through a very similar situation at one point. You may not be able to see the world, but you are still a part of it, and it seems to me that you are totally living in reality. You do pay your bills, make your own meals, and possibly live independently, however I think your cousin is saying this because you do not have an occupation. She needs to come upon the understanding that it's not easy for a blind or sighted person to find a job within our acconimy these days. Also, about the dating situation, I have dated both a blind and sighted guy before, and I don't think that most guys care that you are blind, I think they would pay more attention to your personality. But, there is definitely nothing wrong with dating a blind man, he may understand you more that a sighted man will, or you may like him more than everybody knows. In my opinion, eventually your cousin will come to an understanding about your life, however, she/he may never completely understand. I hope this helps, JJ On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > Hi, all. > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing > the following things: > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > because he is blind. > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind > woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out > with blind women. > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real > world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay > taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is > not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should > move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back > there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > Please help. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com > -- Ms. Johnnie Jean Duran 8th Grade Student O'Connell Middle School - An IB World School Member Of The National Federation Of The Blind Of Colorado, The Colorado Association Of Blind Students, and the North Metro Chapter of the NFB. Facebook: facebook.com/johnniejean.duran Instagram: jj_duran13 Skype: jj.duran13 Kik: jjd_13 From mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 16:31:54 2013 From: mauriciopmalmeida at gmail.com (Mauricio Almeida) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:31:54 -0200 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: Greetings, For me, the problem is that people give way too much importance for what other people say or think of them. this is even more common in the US. If you are happy with your boy friend, with your location, and with your life, regardless of whether you are right or wrong (i do not know enough of either to be able to oriente you on that) it does not matter what her or anyone else has to think of you. I personally am open to meeting and dating sighted people regardless of statistics, as it is our atitude that determines prejudice most times. but then again, that does not mean much. You should do what makes you happy, period. On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > Hi, all. > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing > the following things: > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > because he is blind. > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind > woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out > with blind women. > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real > world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay > taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is > not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should > move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back > there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > Please help. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mauriciopmalmeida%40gmail.com > From djdan567 at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 16:39:49 2013 From: djdan567 at gmail.com (Daniel Romero) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:39:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Beth, 1. Yeah though she might have a problem with your latest boyfriend because he's blind, and you might have become obsessive, all our families want is the best for us. Obsessive is okay, you're in the honeymoon stage, it's normal. But the blind factor is something our families are always going to feel a little nervous about as they think/feel/want to be secure that we'll always have someone there who's sighted ready to help us in whatever we may need help with. That's not saying your family doubts your abilities, but they just want the best for you at the end of the day. 2. Just because she's giving you this piece of advice, don't shut it down because you currently have a blind boyfriend and you're sitting on top of the world. She's just giving you some words of advice. No one ever said you had to comply with them. And from experience, a sighted guy will date/approach a blind woman faster than a sighted woman would a blind man. (Lol but I guess that can be debated). 3. Stop trying to prove yourself to someone. We as blind people spend so much time, trying to impress/change the minds of people who don't live in our shoes everyday, that we get so flustered, (Which you already have gotten). If she doesn't think you live the real world, let her think that. If she doesn't want to be a part of the NFB parents of blind children group, then she doesn't have too. Live your life. If you're happy, you do the things you do for your reasons that bennifit you, then do it. Stop trying to make the world happy around you when at the end of the day, all that matters is your happiness and what you're comfortable with. Might have came off pushy in this e-mail, I just don't want you giving power to those who don't/won't understand and won't take the time out to view what life is like in your shoes. Take care! On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > Hi, all. > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing > the following things: > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > because he is blind. > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind > woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out > with blind women. > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real > world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay > taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is > not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should > move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back > there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > Please help. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdan567%40gmail.com > From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Nov 20 16:49:26 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 09:49:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: <528CE816.7060701@comcast.net> On 11/20/2013 9:30 AM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Hi, > I can totally relate to you, due to the fact that I was going through > a very similar situation at one point. You may not be able to see the > world, but you are still a part of it, and it seems to me that you are > totally living in reality. You do pay your bills, make your own meals, > and possibly live independently, however I think your cousin is saying > this because you do not have an occupation. She needs to come upon the > understanding that it's not easy for a blind or sighted person to find > a job within our acconimy these days. Also, about the dating > situation, I have dated both a blind and sighted guy before, and I > don't think that most guys care that you are blind, I think they would > pay more attention to your personality. But, there is definitely > nothing wrong with dating a blind man, he may understand you more that > a sighted man will, or you may like him more than everybody knows. In > my opinion, eventually your cousin will come to an understanding about > your life, however, she/he may never completely understand. > I hope this helps, > JJ > > On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >> Hi, all. >> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >> the following things: >> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >> because he is blind. >> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >> are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind >> woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out >> with blind women. >> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >> understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real >> world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay >> taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is >> not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >> move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back >> there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >> Please help. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >> > IF you want, JJ, here's my info. You and I need to talk because you're right in my backyard. Beth NFBCO member, denverqueen0920 skype From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Nov 20 16:51:51 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 09:51:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: <528CE8A7.6050008@comcast.net> On 11/20/2013 9:39 AM, Daniel Romero wrote: > Hi Beth, > 1. Yeah though she might have a problem with your latest boyfriend > because he's blind, and you might have become obsessive, all our > families want is the best for us. Obsessive is okay, you're in the > honeymoon stage, it's normal. But the blind factor is something our > families are always going to feel a little nervous about as they > think/feel/want to be secure that we'll always have someone there > who's sighted ready to help us in whatever we may need help with. > That's not saying your family doubts your abilities, but they just > want the best for you at the end of the day. > 2. Just because she's giving you this piece of advice, don't shut it > down because you currently have a blind boyfriend and you're sitting > on top of the world. She's just giving you some words of advice. No > one ever said you had to comply with them. And from experience, a > sighted guy will date/approach a blind woman faster than a sighted > woman would a blind man. (Lol but I guess that can be debated). > 3. Stop trying to prove yourself to someone. We as blind people spend > so much time, trying to impress/change the minds of people who don't > live in our shoes everyday, that we get so flustered, (Which you > already have gotten). If she doesn't think you live the real world, > let her think that. If she doesn't want to be a part of the NFB > parents of blind children group, then she doesn't have too. Live your > life. If you're happy, you do the things you do for your reasons that > bennifit you, then do it. Stop trying to make the world happy around > you when at the end of the day, all that matters is your happiness and > what you're comfortable with. > Might have came off pushy in this e-mail, I just don't want you giving > power to those who don't/won't understand and won't take the time out > to view what life is like in your shoes. > Take care! > > On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >> Hi, all. >> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >> the following things: >> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >> because he is blind. >> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >> are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind >> woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out >> with blind women. >> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >> understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real >> world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay >> taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is >> not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >> move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back >> there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >> Please help. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdan567%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > Thank you for your advice. I'd like my cousins and family to realize that I do live in the real world and there's nothing wrong with what I'm doing currently. I don't have a current occupation because of economic reasons, and that's understandable. Beth From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Nov 20 17:05:25 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 10:05:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: <528CEBD5.1010603@comcast.net> You may Skype or call me at any time. You're right in my backyard, and I'd like to help in some way with whatever you have questions about. I do live independently, though without a job, it's a bit harder. Beth NFBCO member denverqueen0920 equals Skype IDOn 11/20/2013 9:30 AM, johnnie Jean duran wrote: > Hi, > I can totally relate to you, due to the fact that I was going through > a very similar situation at one point. You may not be able to see the > world, but you are still a part of it, and it seems to me that you are > totally living in reality. You do pay your bills, make your own meals, > and possibly live independently, however I think your cousin is saying > this because you do not have an occupation. She needs to come upon the > understanding that it's not easy for a blind or sighted person to find > a job within our acconimy these days. Also, about the dating > situation, I have dated both a blind and sighted guy before, and I > don't think that most guys care that you are blind, I think they would > pay more attention to your personality. But, there is definitely > nothing wrong with dating a blind man, he may understand you more that > a sighted man will, or you may like him more than everybody knows. In > my opinion, eventually your cousin will come to an understanding about > your life, however, she/he may never completely understand. > I hope this helps, > JJ > > On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >> Hi, all. >> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >> the following things: >> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >> because he is blind. >> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >> are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind >> woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out >> with blind women. >> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >> understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real >> world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay >> taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is >> not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >> move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back >> there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >> Please help. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/johnniejduran%40gmail.com >> > From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 17:07:11 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:07:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Beth First I will tell you date who ever you want don't let anyone tell you different. Even sometimes we have to prove things to our own family it's sad I know. I am blind visually impaired what ever you want to call it I can see out one eye. I have dated people with 20/20. Yes it was nice but I feel like fully sighted: people focus on looks and mis out on getting to know the person. Will it be a challenge dating a blind person maybe a little but all relationships have ups and downs. If he make you happy don't let anyone keep you from your happiness. Eventually your family will see that you're happy and get over the fact he is blind. Just my thoughts. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 11:40 AM, "Daniel Romero" wrote: > Hi Beth, > 1. Yeah though she might have a problem with your latest boyfriend > because he's blind, and you might have become obsessive, all our > families want is the best for us. Obsessive is okay, you're in the > honeymoon stage, it's normal. But the blind factor is something our > families are always going to feel a little nervous about as they > think/feel/want to be secure that we'll always have someone there > who's sighted ready to help us in whatever we may need help with. > That's not saying your family doubts your abilities, but they just > want the best for you at the end of the day. > 2. Just because she's giving you this piece of advice, don't shut it > down because you currently have a blind boyfriend and you're sitting > on top of the world. She's just giving you some words of advice. No > one ever said you had to comply with them. And from experience, a > sighted guy will date/approach a blind woman faster than a sighted > woman would a blind man. (Lol but I guess that can be debated). > 3. Stop trying to prove yourself to someone. We as blind people spend > so much time, trying to impress/change the minds of people who don't > live in our shoes everyday, that we get so flustered, (Which you > already have gotten). If she doesn't think you live the real world, > let her think that. If she doesn't want to be a part of the NFB > parents of blind children group, then she doesn't have too. Live your > life. If you're happy, you do the things you do for your reasons that > bennifit you, then do it. Stop trying to make the world happy around > you when at the end of the day, all that matters is your happiness and > what you're comfortable with. > Might have came off pushy in this e-mail, I just don't want you giving > power to those who don't/won't understand and won't take the time out > to view what life is like in your shoes. > Take care! > > On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: > > Hi, all. > > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing > > the following things: > > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > > because he is blind. > > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > > are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind > > woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out > > with blind women. > > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > > understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real > > world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay > > taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is > > not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually > disabled. > > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should > > move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back > > there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > > Please help. > > Beth > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdan567%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Wed Nov 20 17:40:52 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 10:40:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: <528CF424.8010108@comcast.net> Ok. You're right. What I'm concerned about is people not understanding not only that I've got this, I'm on top of my game, and that sort of thing, but that I'm also not putting myself in any more danger than the average person. My cousin says I should not meet others online at all, and she doesn't understand that disabled people in rural and hard to staff areas have to do that. Case in point, myself included. Beth TaurasiOn 11/20/2013 10:07 AM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > Hi Beth > First I will tell you date who ever you want don't let anyone tell you > different. Even sometimes we have to prove things to our own family it's > sad I know. I am blind visually impaired what ever you want to call it I > can see out one eye. I have dated people with 20/20. Yes it was nice but I > feel like fully sighted: people focus on looks and mis out on getting to > know the person. Will it be a challenge dating a blind person maybe a > little but all relationships have ups and downs. If he make you happy don't > let anyone keep you from your happiness. Eventually your family will see > that you're happy and get over the fact he is blind. > Just my thoughts. > > Lavar J Phillips > 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 > Cell # (917) 858 3368 > Twitter lavar1988 > On Nov 20, 2013 11:40 AM, "Daniel Romero" wrote: > >> Hi Beth, >> 1. Yeah though she might have a problem with your latest boyfriend >> because he's blind, and you might have become obsessive, all our >> families want is the best for us. Obsessive is okay, you're in the >> honeymoon stage, it's normal. But the blind factor is something our >> families are always going to feel a little nervous about as they >> think/feel/want to be secure that we'll always have someone there >> who's sighted ready to help us in whatever we may need help with. >> That's not saying your family doubts your abilities, but they just >> want the best for you at the end of the day. >> 2. Just because she's giving you this piece of advice, don't shut it >> down because you currently have a blind boyfriend and you're sitting >> on top of the world. She's just giving you some words of advice. No >> one ever said you had to comply with them. And from experience, a >> sighted guy will date/approach a blind woman faster than a sighted >> woman would a blind man. (Lol but I guess that can be debated). >> 3. Stop trying to prove yourself to someone. We as blind people spend >> so much time, trying to impress/change the minds of people who don't >> live in our shoes everyday, that we get so flustered, (Which you >> already have gotten). If she doesn't think you live the real world, >> let her think that. If she doesn't want to be a part of the NFB >> parents of blind children group, then she doesn't have too. Live your >> life. If you're happy, you do the things you do for your reasons that >> bennifit you, then do it. Stop trying to make the world happy around >> you when at the end of the day, all that matters is your happiness and >> what you're comfortable with. >> Might have came off pushy in this e-mail, I just don't want you giving >> power to those who don't/won't understand and won't take the time out >> to view what life is like in your shoes. >> Take care! >> >> On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>> Hi, all. >>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >>> the following things: >>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >>> because he is blind. >>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >>> are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind >>> woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out >>> with blind women. >>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>> understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real >>> world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay >>> taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is >>> not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually >> disabled. >>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>> move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back >>> there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>> Please help. >>> Beth >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdan567%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Wed Nov 20 17:47:20 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:47:20 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Message-ID: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Georgia Industries for the Blind is hiring for assembly positions and potentially sowing positions as well. Email me off list if you need more information. I don't have all of the details, but I'll help you out if I can. From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Wed Nov 20 18:16:25 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:16:25 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In-Reply-To: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> References: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> No! Don't even put it on here! Georgia Industries pays blind workers under the federally mandated minimum wage! We're boycotting them, and Goodwill! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list (nabs-l at nfbnet.org) Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Georgia Industries for the Blind is hiring for assembly positions and potentially sowing positions as well. Email me off list if you need more information. I don't have all of the details, but I'll help you out if I can. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Wed Nov 20 18:18:08 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:18:08 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In-Reply-To: <63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>, <63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <57e8c3957c7e4666a76f1da37bfdcb14@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> I know I'm not the moderator, but when I read this post, I was outraged that this would get on an NFB list, being that the NFB is boycotting this group! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Joshua Lester [JLester8462 at pccua.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring No! Don't even put it on here! Georgia Industries pays blind workers under the federally mandated minimum wage! We're boycotting them, and Goodwill! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list (nabs-l at nfbnet.org) Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Georgia Industries for the Blind is hiring for assembly positions and potentially sowing positions as well. Email me off list if you need more information. I don't have all of the details, but I'll help you out if I can. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Wed Nov 20 18:24:33 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:24:33 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In-Reply-To: <63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: In my experience it is not subminimum wage. Why do you think that? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring No! Don't even put it on here! Georgia Industries pays blind workers under the federally mandated minimum wage! We're boycotting them, and Goodwill! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list (nabs-l at nfbnet.org) Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Georgia Industries for the Blind is hiring for assembly positions and potentially sowing positions as well. Email me off list if you need more information. I don't have all of the details, but I'll help you out if I can. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 18:27:52 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 13:27:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528CF424.8010108@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <528CF424.8010108@comcast.net> Message-ID: I understand I hate when people try to make me feel like I don't know what I am doing with my life and question my choices. You can't make people understand if they are not willing to listen. When people question what I do or who I date I ask have I given you any reason in the past or done something wrong for you to question me. As far as meeting people online you are right in mg opinion you are not in any more danger everyone does it just control the place where you meet and all that. As for you being on top of your game all you can do is show people by your actions. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 12:46 PM, "Beth Taurasi" wrote: > Ok. You're right. What I'm concerned about is people not understanding > not only that I've got this, I'm on top of my game, and that sort of thing, > but that I'm also not putting myself in any more danger than the average > person. My cousin says I should not meet others online at all, and she > doesn't understand that disabled people in rural and hard to staff areas > have to do that. Case in point, myself included. > Beth TaurasiOn 11/20/2013 10:07 AM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > >> Hi Beth >> First I will tell you date who ever you want don't let anyone tell you >> different. Even sometimes we have to prove things to our own family it's >> sad I know. I am blind visually impaired what ever you want to call it I >> can see out one eye. I have dated people with 20/20. Yes it was nice but I >> feel like fully sighted: people focus on looks and mis out on getting to >> know the person. Will it be a challenge dating a blind person maybe a >> little but all relationships have ups and downs. If he make you happy >> don't >> let anyone keep you from your happiness. Eventually your family will see >> that you're happy and get over the fact he is blind. >> Just my thoughts. >> >> Lavar J Phillips >> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >> Twitter lavar1988 >> On Nov 20, 2013 11:40 AM, "Daniel Romero" wrote: >> >> Hi Beth, >>> 1. Yeah though she might have a problem with your latest boyfriend >>> because he's blind, and you might have become obsessive, all our >>> families want is the best for us. Obsessive is okay, you're in the >>> honeymoon stage, it's normal. But the blind factor is something our >>> families are always going to feel a little nervous about as they >>> think/feel/want to be secure that we'll always have someone there >>> who's sighted ready to help us in whatever we may need help with. >>> That's not saying your family doubts your abilities, but they just >>> want the best for you at the end of the day. >>> 2. Just because she's giving you this piece of advice, don't shut it >>> down because you currently have a blind boyfriend and you're sitting >>> on top of the world. She's just giving you some words of advice. No >>> one ever said you had to comply with them. And from experience, a >>> sighted guy will date/approach a blind woman faster than a sighted >>> woman would a blind man. (Lol but I guess that can be debated). >>> 3. Stop trying to prove yourself to someone. We as blind people spend >>> so much time, trying to impress/change the minds of people who don't >>> live in our shoes everyday, that we get so flustered, (Which you >>> already have gotten). If she doesn't think you live the real world, >>> let her think that. If she doesn't want to be a part of the NFB >>> parents of blind children group, then she doesn't have too. Live your >>> life. If you're happy, you do the things you do for your reasons that >>> bennifit you, then do it. Stop trying to make the world happy around >>> you when at the end of the day, all that matters is your happiness and >>> what you're comfortable with. >>> Might have came off pushy in this e-mail, I just don't want you giving >>> power to those who don't/won't understand and won't take the time out >>> to view what life is like in your shoes. >>> Take care! >>> >>> On 11/20/13, Beth Taurasi wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >>>> the following things: >>>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >>>> because he is blind. >>>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >>>> are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind >>>> woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out >>>> with blind women. >>>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>> understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real >>>> world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay >>>> taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is >>>> not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually >>>> >>> disabled. >>> >>>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >>>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>>> move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back >>>> there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>>> Please help. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> djdan567%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ > lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 20:24:00 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 15:24:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> Message-ID: <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date the man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes you. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world Hi, all. I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the following things: 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with because he is blind. 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, and statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind women. 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." Please help. Beth _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From arielle71 at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 22:48:12 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 15:48:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Beth and all, The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in reality. I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is not qualified to judge him in my opinion. I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is your decision, not theirs. Best, Arielle On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: > Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date the > man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes you. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world > > Hi, all. > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the > following things: > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > because he is blind. > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > are > married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, > and > statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind > women. > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > understand > the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my > bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my > understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and > finding > a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move > back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I > said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > Please help. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Wed Nov 20 23:16:10 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:16:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 5:48 PM, "Arielle Silverman" wrote: > > Hi Beth and all, > > The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion > as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is > supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality > is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the > real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, > college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their > bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that > the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I > find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the > blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in > reality. > > I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but > I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted > husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in > love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright > that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that > message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind > boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our > family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer > us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area > much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is > not qualified to judge him in my opinion. > > I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving > back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what > you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is > your decision, not theirs. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: > > Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date the > > man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes you. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world > > > > Hi, all. > > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the > > following things: > > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > > because he is blind. > > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > > are > > married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, > > and > > statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind > > women. > > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > > understand > > the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my > > bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my > > understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and > > finding > > a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. > > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move > > back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I > > said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > > Please help. > > Beth > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com On Nov 20, 2013 5:48 PM, "Arielle Silverman" wrote: > > Hi Beth and all, > > The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion > as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is > supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality > is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the > real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, > college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their > bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that > the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I > find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the > blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in > reality. > > I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but > I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted > husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in > love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright > that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that > message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind > boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our > family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer > us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area > much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is > not qualified to judge him in my opinion. > > I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving > back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what > you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is > your decision, not theirs. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: > > Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date the > > man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes you. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world > > > > Hi, all. > > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the > > following things: > > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > > because he is blind. > > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > > are > > married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, > > and > > statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind > > women. > > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > > understand > > the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my > > bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my > > understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and > > finding > > a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. > > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move > > back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I > > said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > > Please help. > > Beth > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > > .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com I agree if you are happy where you live and happy with your boyfriend stay there. Hi Beth and all, The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in reality. I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is not qualified to judge him in my opinion. I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is your decision, not theirs. Best, Arielle On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: > Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date the > man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes you. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world > > Hi, all. > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the > following things: > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > because he is blind. > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > are > married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, > and > statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind > women. > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > understand > the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my > bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my > understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and > finding > a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move > back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I > said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > Please help. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com From NShaheen at nfb.org Thu Nov 21 00:00:36 2013 From: NShaheen at nfb.org (Shaheen, Natalie) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:00:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Apply Now for NASA Summer 2014 Internships: Recruitment Letter for Student Interns with Disabilities and Frequently Asked Questions Attached (Please Distribute Far and Wide!) Message-ID: Federationists and Others: See the note below regarding internships at NASA. If you are a student this opportunity is for you! Please see the attached documentation for further details and contact MICHAEL BEHRINGER (information below) for details. I am only passing along the information I do not have any more detail than what is provided in this message. Regards, Natalie Shaheen Natalie L. Shaheen, MEd Director of Education Jernigan Institute NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND ALCON, NASA is looking to increase the number of students with disabilities pursuing science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) careers through their internship programs. NASA has a two-percent hiring goal for employment of people with disabilities and internships are a good way to get experience. Students can apply for summer 2014 internships right this very minute! The deadline for submitting applications is Friday, March 14, 2014, and NASA will begin extending offers to students as early as Monday, February 3, 2014. If you know of anyone who may be interested please share the information contained within this email and encourage them to apply today. R/ MICHAEL BEHRINGER MAJ, MDDF Executive Support Officer to the Chief of Staff 70th RGT (LDR) Augmentation Team JFHQ J3 LNO (CoLT Program OIC) 410-456-0953 (c) mbehringer at mddf.maryland.gov michael.behringer1 at us.army.mil http://mddf.maryland.gov Content-Type: application/pdf; name="nasa_summer_2014_recruitment_letter_for_student_interns_with_disabilities.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nasa_summer_2014_recruitment_letter_for_student_interns_with_disabilities.pdf" X-Attachment-Id: a972a5cf3c3a41ce_0.1 Content-Type: application/msword; name="Frequently Asked Questions About OSSI.doc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Frequently Asked Questions About OSSI.doc" X-Attachment-Id: a972a5cf3c3a41ce_0.2 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="Frequently Asked Questions About OSSI.pdf" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Frequently Asked Questions About OSSI.pdf" X-Attachment-Id: a972a5cf3c3a41ce_0.3 Content-Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document; name="nasa_summer_2014_recruitment_letter_for_student_interns_with_disabilities.docx" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nasa_summer_2014_recruitment_letter_for_student_interns_with_disabilities.docx" X-Attachment-Id: a972a5cf3c3a41ce_0.4 Take the stress out of this year's holiday shopping with NFB's Bid for Equality national online auction: Black Friday, Nov. 29, to Giving Tuesday, Dec. 3. View our must-have donations and register to make your Bid for Equality. The future is in your bid! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nasa_summer_2014_recruitment_letter_for_student_interns_with_disabilities12.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 110208 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Frequently Asked Questions About OSSI12.doc Type: application/msword Size: 60416 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Frequently Asked Questions About OSSI12.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 92243 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: nasa_summer_2014_recruitment_letter_for_student_interns_with_disabilities.doc Type: application/msword Size: 88865 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dandrews at visi.com Thu Nov 21 00:17:59 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:17:59 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] A Question In-Reply-To: <510CCF47-9F8D-4BCD-BEA9-8E2C0F994399@gmail.com> References: <510CCF47-9F8D-4BCD-BEA9-8E2C0F994399@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think they are a part of Associated Services in Philadelphia, a long-time and reputable agency. Dave At 05:05 PM 11/19/2013, you wrote: >Hey Everybody! > >I was looking for a Braille copy of "Where the Sidewalk Ends" and >came across one at a place called Future Aids: The Braille >Superstore. Do any of you have experiences with them? How were >those experiences? Is there anyone else who might have one [I want >a hard copy Braille copy]. I have checked Amazon and eBay to no avail. > >Thanks so much! > >Jordan Richardson > >Jordan Richardson >Community Corps Member >Minnesota Reading Corps. |. AmeriCorps State & National >Sent from my iPad From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 00:26:29 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:26:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said in this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, and I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should be first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, and I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the family. Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Beth and all, > > The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion > as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is > supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality > is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the > real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, > college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their > bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that > the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I > find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the > blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in > reality. > > I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but > I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted > husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in > love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright > that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that > message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind > boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our > family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer > us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area > much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is > not qualified to judge him in my opinion. > > I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving > back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what > you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is > your decision, not theirs. > > Best, > Arielle > > On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date the >> man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes you. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi >> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >> >> Hi, all. >> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the >> following things: >> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >> because he is blind. >> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >> are >> married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, >> and >> statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind >> women. >> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >> understand >> the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my >> bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my >> understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >> finding >> a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move >> back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I >> said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >> Please help. >> Beth >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Thu Nov 21 00:47:07 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 00:47:07 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In-Reply-To: References: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>, Message-ID: Anill Lewis told me that they paid only $3.00 an hour! That's ridiculous! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In my experience it is not subminimum wage. Why do you think that? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring No! Don't even put it on here! Georgia Industries pays blind workers under the federally mandated minimum wage! We're boycotting them, and Goodwill! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list (nabs-l at nfbnet.org) Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Georgia Industries for the Blind is hiring for assembly positions and potentially sowing positions as well. Email me off list if you need more information. I don't have all of the details, but I'll help you out if I can. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 00:48:51 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:48:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> Message-ID: In what way is your family saying you are obsessed with boys ? Have you not been with your boyfriend for a long time.?Are they telling you to give it time to see if you want kids with him? I understand wanting to be able to have a healthy family. My girlfriend is 27 years old as well and I want kids I love kids Also your family can't take your freedom away. Sometime family can be a pain I'm sorry Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 7:27 PM, "Beth Taurasi" wrote: > I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to > any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said in > this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom > you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with > boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, and > I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 > or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an > unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we > have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due > to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because > they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout > Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should be > first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, and > I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad > what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the > family. > Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Hi Beth and all, >> >> The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion >> as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is >> supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality >> is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the >> real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, >> college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their >> bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that >> the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I >> find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the >> blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in >> reality. >> >> I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but >> I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted >> husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in >> love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright >> that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that >> message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind >> boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our >> family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer >> us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area >> much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is >> not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >> >> I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >> back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >> you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is >> your decision, not theirs. >> >> Best, >> Arielle >> >> On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >> >>> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date >>> the >>> man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes >>> you. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>> Taurasi >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>> >>> Hi, all. >>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >>> the >>> following things: >>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >>> because he is blind. >>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >>> are >>> married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, >>> and >>> statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind >>> women. >>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>> understand >>> the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay >>> my >>> bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my >>> understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >>> finding >>> a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>> move >>> back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I >>> said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>> Please help. >>> Beth >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> arielle71%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ > lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 01:02:47 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:02:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> Message-ID: It's my belief that sometimes no matter how much you fight with your family it may come a time where you may have to cut them off. I know that sounds harsh but if you really want something that is good for you like having your own family and they won't support you then oh well. Just know it will be harder Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 7:48 PM, "Lavar Phillips" wrote: > In what way is your family saying you are obsessed with boys ? Have you > not been with your boyfriend for a long time.?Are they telling you to give > it time to see if you want kids with him? I understand wanting to be able > to have a healthy family. My girlfriend is 27 years old as well and I want > kids I love kids > Also your family can't take your freedom away. Sometime family can be a > pain I'm sorry > > Lavar J Phillips > 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 > Cell # (917) 858 3368 > Twitter lavar1988 > On Nov 20, 2013 7:27 PM, "Beth Taurasi" > wrote: > >> I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to >> any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said in >> this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom >> you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with >> boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, and >> I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 >> or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an >> unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we >> have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due >> to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because >> they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout >> Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should be >> first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, and >> I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad >> what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the >> family. >> Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >>> Hi Beth and all, >>> >>> The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion >>> as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is >>> supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality >>> is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the >>> real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, >>> college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their >>> bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that >>> the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I >>> find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the >>> blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in >>> reality. >>> >>> I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but >>> I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted >>> husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in >>> love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright >>> that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that >>> message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind >>> boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our >>> family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer >>> us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area >>> much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is >>> not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >>> >>> I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >>> back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >>> you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is >>> your decision, not theirs. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >>>> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date >>>> the >>>> man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes >>>> you. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>> Taurasi >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >>>> the >>>> following things: >>>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >>>> because he is blind. >>>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >>>> are >>>> married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, >>>> and >>>> statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind >>>> women. >>>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>> understand >>>> the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay >>>> my >>>> bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my >>>> understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >>>> finding >>>> a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >>>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >>>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>>> move >>>> back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, >>>> I >>>> said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>>> Please help. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >> > From clb5590 at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 01:05:21 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:05:21 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Call reminder Fwd: NABS Fundraising Committee References: Message-ID: <1F42DB34-6BF4-4489-9C0D-D7857D816433@gmail.com> Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology: UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: Candice Chapman > Date: November 18, 2013 at 7:44:00 PM PST > To: Daniel Martinez , Bre Brown , corina.d.salinas at gmail.com, fowlers , Hoby Wedler , Monica Villareal > Cc: NABS President , Cindy Bennett > Subject: NABS Fundraising Committee > > Hello all, > > We all know how important fundraising is to accomplishing the goals > and activities of our organization. We also know the key to the > success of a fundraiser relies heavily on the folks behind the scenes > putting it all together. That being said the NABS Fundraising > Committee needs your help! We will be holding a meeting on Wednesday, > November 20th to begin working on plans for our upcoming fundraisers. > If you are interested in joining our committee please call in at 8:30 > p.m central (9:30 est., 6:30 pacific) using conference > number:605-475-6700 passcode: 7869673 > > We look forward to hearing from you! > > Warm regards, > > Candice Chapman > NABS Fundraising Committee Co-Chair From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 01:05:51 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:05:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> Message-ID: <528D5C6F.9060206@comcast.net> They think it's because of mental health issues, but they are not seeing the big picture. They are to blame for the mental health issues, and they didn't allow me as a teenager to have a boyfriend, to go to prom, to have friends period. They simply isolated me from different clubs, youth groups, and such simply because I had suicidal ideations. There's too much to cover in one email, and I wanna make it short. Beth Taurasi On 11/20/2013 5:48 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > In what way is your family saying you are obsessed with boys ? Have you not > been with your boyfriend for a long time.?Are they telling you to give it > time to see if you want kids with him? I understand wanting to be able to > have a healthy family. My girlfriend is 27 years old as well and I want > kids I love kids > Also your family can't take your freedom away. Sometime family can be a > pain I'm sorry > > Lavar J Phillips > 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 > Cell # (917) 858 3368 > Twitter lavar1988 > On Nov 20, 2013 7:27 PM, "Beth Taurasi" wrote: > >> I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to >> any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said in >> this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom >> you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with >> boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, and >> I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 >> or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an >> unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we >> have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due >> to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because >> they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout >> Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should be >> first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, and >> I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad >> what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the >> family. >> Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >>> Hi Beth and all, >>> >>> The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion >>> as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is >>> supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality >>> is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the >>> real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, >>> college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their >>> bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that >>> the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I >>> find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the >>> blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in >>> reality. >>> >>> I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but >>> I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted >>> husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in >>> love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright >>> that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that >>> message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind >>> boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our >>> family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer >>> us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area >>> much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is >>> not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >>> >>> I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >>> back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >>> you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is >>> your decision, not theirs. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >>>> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date >>>> the >>>> man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes >>>> you. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>> Taurasi >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >>>> the >>>> following things: >>>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >>>> because he is blind. >>>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >>>> are >>>> married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, >>>> and >>>> statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind >>>> women. >>>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>> understand >>>> the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay >>>> my >>>> bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my >>>> understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >>>> finding >>>> a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >>>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >>>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>>> move >>>> back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I >>>> said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>>> Please help. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 01:08:47 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:08:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> Message-ID: <003301cee656$3bc1dde0$b34599a0$@gmail.com> Sometimes, you do have to cut them off. I have to keep my family on the outside a good bit; I have to keep them out of just about every loop accept school stuff. Its either that, or cut them off completely. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lavar Phillips Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 8:03 PM To: List Subject: Re: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world It's my belief that sometimes no matter how much you fight with your family it may come a time where you may have to cut them off. I know that sounds harsh but if you really want something that is good for you like having your own family and they won't support you then oh well. Just know it will be harder Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 7:48 PM, "Lavar Phillips" wrote: > In what way is your family saying you are obsessed with boys ? Have > you not been with your boyfriend for a long time.?Are they telling you > to give it time to see if you want kids with him? I understand wanting > to be able to have a healthy family. My girlfriend is 27 years old as > well and I want kids I love kids Also your family can't take your > freedom away. Sometime family can be a pain I'm sorry > > Lavar J Phillips > 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter > lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 7:27 PM, "Beth Taurasi" > > wrote: > >> I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice >> to any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would >> have said in this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in >> your life as to whom you should marry, but my cousins and family are >> saying I am obsessed with boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 >> and don't have any kids yet, and I really want to have healthy >> pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 or older. I'd like to >> be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an unacceptable age to >> be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we have to gauge >> how much time we have left before there's complications due to age >> and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because they're >> fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout >> Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job >> should be first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming >> to Denver, and I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever >> reason. It's so sad what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the family. >> Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> >>> Hi Beth and all, >>> >>> The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar >>> fashion as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" >>> is supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's >>> reality is a little different. I would submit that people are living >>> in the real world whether they are adolescents living with their >>> parents, college students not yet paying their own bills, people >>> paying their bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's >>> implication that the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people >>> is something I find particularly offensive. I would consider people >>> working in the blindness field, or married to blind people, as >>> still living in reality. >>> >>> I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, >>> but I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a >>> sighted husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and >>> he fell in love with me even though I am blind. My parents never >>> told me outright that I should marry a sighted person, but they did >>> send me that message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my >>> blind boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of >>> our family members just don't understand what blind partners have to >>> offer us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that >>> area much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or >>> sighted, is not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >>> >>> I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >>> back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >>> you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it >>> is your decision, not theirs. >>> >>> Best, >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >>> >>>> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't >>>> date the man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see >>>> where it takes you. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>> Taurasi >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>>> >>>> Hi, all. >>>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of >>>> doing the following things: >>>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem >>>> with because he is blind. >>>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, >>>> Arielle, you are married to a sighted man, but not all sighted >>>> people like a blind woman, and statistically it isn't true that >>>> sighted people will go out with blind women. >>>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>> understand the real world. What? I told her I do understand the >>>> real world, I pay my bills, I save money, I work with money. I >>>> don't pay taxes because in my understanding of the so-called "real >>>> world", SSI is not taxable, and finding a job for me is hard >>>> because I am dually disabled. >>>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even >>>> with my particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's >>>> parenting without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. >>>> I have a lot of friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, >>>> she says I should move back to Florida, but after all this stuff >>>> I've been through back there, I said to her, "No. I've got all I >>>> need in Denver." >>>> Please help. >>>> Beth >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> arielle71%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 01:16:13 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 20:16:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528D5C6F.9060206@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> <528D5C6F.9060206@comcast.net> Message-ID: Okay so they think your not thinking clearly. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 8:07 PM, "Beth Taurasi" wrote: > They think it's because of mental health issues, but they are not seeing > the big picture. They are to blame for the mental health issues, and they > didn't allow me as a teenager to have a boyfriend, to go to prom, to have > friends period. They simply isolated me from different clubs, youth > groups, and such simply because I had suicidal ideations. There's too much > to cover in one email, and I wanna make it short. > Beth Taurasi > On 11/20/2013 5:48 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > >> In what way is your family saying you are obsessed with boys ? Have you >> not >> been with your boyfriend for a long time.?Are they telling you to give it >> time to see if you want kids with him? I understand wanting to be able to >> have a healthy family. My girlfriend is 27 years old as well and I want >> kids I love kids >> Also your family can't take your freedom away. Sometime family can be a >> pain I'm sorry >> >> Lavar J Phillips >> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >> Twitter lavar1988 >> On Nov 20, 2013 7:27 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >> wrote: >> >> I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to >>> any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said >>> in >>> this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom >>> you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with >>> boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, >>> and >>> I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at >>> 35 >>> or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an >>> unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we >>> have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due >>> to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because >>> they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout >>> Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should >>> be >>> first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, >>> and >>> I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad >>> what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the >>> family. >>> Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >>> Hi Beth and all, >>>> >>>> The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion >>>> as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is >>>> supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality >>>> is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the >>>> real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, >>>> college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their >>>> bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that >>>> the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I >>>> find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the >>>> blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in >>>> reality. >>>> >>>> I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but >>>> I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted >>>> husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in >>>> love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright >>>> that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that >>>> message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind >>>> boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our >>>> family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer >>>> us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area >>>> much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is >>>> not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >>>> back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >>>> you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is >>>> your decision, not theirs. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> >>>> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date >>>>> the >>>>> man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes >>>>> you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>>> Taurasi >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>>>> >>>>> Hi, all. >>>>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >>>>> the >>>>> following things: >>>>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem >>>>> with >>>>> because he is blind. >>>>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, >>>>> you >>>>> are >>>>> married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind >>>>> woman, >>>>> and >>>>> statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind >>>>> women. >>>>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>>> understand >>>>> the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay >>>>> my >>>>> bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my >>>>> understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >>>>> finding >>>>> a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >>>>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>>>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>>>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot >>>>> of >>>>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>>>> move >>>>> back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back >>>>> there, I >>>>> said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>>>> Please help. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>> arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ > lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 01:15:56 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:15:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> Message-ID: <528D5ECC.5020306@comcast.net> Please write me off list. Let me explain something really really important. I can't write some of this, only that there's ain incompetence order. RJ Sandefur knows all about this. Because of this order, they have to be on my bank account, have to control things, have to watch things. I'm sick of it, and I want them out for good. I was considering some legal moves, but the Blind Lawyers won't represent me, nor will Legal Aid. I don't know what recourse I have to get them to see the big picture. I want to be a person, not somebody's house pet. Beth On 11/20/2013 6:02 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > It's my belief that sometimes no matter how much you fight with your family > it may come a time where you may have to cut them off. I know that sounds > harsh but if you really want something that is good for you like having > your own family and they won't support you then oh well. Just know it will > be harder > > Lavar J Phillips > 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 > Cell # (917) 858 3368 > Twitter lavar1988 > On Nov 20, 2013 7:48 PM, "Lavar Phillips" wrote: > >> In what way is your family saying you are obsessed with boys ? Have you >> not been with your boyfriend for a long time.?Are they telling you to give >> it time to see if you want kids with him? I understand wanting to be able >> to have a healthy family. My girlfriend is 27 years old as well and I want >> kids I love kids >> Also your family can't take your freedom away. Sometime family can be a >> pain I'm sorry >> >> Lavar J Phillips >> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >> Twitter lavar1988 >> On Nov 20, 2013 7:27 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >> wrote: >> >>> I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to >>> any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said in >>> this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom >>> you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with >>> boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, and >>> I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 >>> or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an >>> unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we >>> have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due >>> to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because >>> they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout >>> Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should be >>> first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, and >>> I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad >>> what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the >>> family. >>> Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Beth and all, >>>> >>>> The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion >>>> as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is >>>> supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality >>>> is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the >>>> real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, >>>> college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their >>>> bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that >>>> the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I >>>> find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the >>>> blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in >>>> reality. >>>> >>>> I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but >>>> I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted >>>> husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in >>>> love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright >>>> that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that >>>> message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind >>>> boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our >>>> family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer >>>> us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area >>>> much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is >>>> not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >>>> back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >>>> you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is >>>> your decision, not theirs. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >>>> >>>>> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date >>>>> the >>>>> man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes >>>>> you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>>> Taurasi >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>>>> >>>>> Hi, all. >>>>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >>>>> the >>>>> following things: >>>>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >>>>> because he is blind. >>>>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >>>>> are >>>>> married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, >>>>> and >>>>> statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind >>>>> women. >>>>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>>> understand >>>>> the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay >>>>> my >>>>> bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my >>>>> understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >>>>> finding >>>>> a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >>>>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>>>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>>>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >>>>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>>>> move >>>>> back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, >>>>> I >>>>> said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>>>> Please help. >>>>> Beth >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>> arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >>> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 01:49:32 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 18:49:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> <528D5C6F.9060206@comcast.net> Message-ID: <528D66AC.4050502@comcast.net> Yes, they think I don't think clearly. Well, if worse came to worse, my bf Blake said he'd offer his home to me as a refuge for any sort of attempted injustice on my family's part. I might have to block some people on my FB page, block some Twitter people, and so on. I will have to make sure that the privacy settings on Facebook are set to friends only. That's all. Anyway, you are welcome to call me sometime tomorrow or you can skype me. My contact info will be at the bottom of this email. Beth Taurasi NFBCO Denver Chapter denverqueen0920 Skype 720-435-7407 CellOn 11/20/2013 6:16 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > Okay so they think your not thinking clearly. > Lavar J Phillips > 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 > Cell # (917) 858 3368 > Twitter lavar1988 > On Nov 20, 2013 8:07 PM, "Beth Taurasi" wrote: > >> They think it's because of mental health issues, but they are not seeing >> the big picture. They are to blame for the mental health issues, and they >> didn't allow me as a teenager to have a boyfriend, to go to prom, to have >> friends period. They simply isolated me from different clubs, youth >> groups, and such simply because I had suicidal ideations. There's too much >> to cover in one email, and I wanna make it short. >> Beth Taurasi >> On 11/20/2013 5:48 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: >> >>> In what way is your family saying you are obsessed with boys ? Have you >>> not >>> been with your boyfriend for a long time.?Are they telling you to give it >>> time to see if you want kids with him? I understand wanting to be able to >>> have a healthy family. My girlfriend is 27 years old as well and I want >>> kids I love kids >>> Also your family can't take your freedom away. Sometime family can be a >>> pain I'm sorry >>> >>> Lavar J Phillips >>> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >>> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >>> Twitter lavar1988 >>> On Nov 20, 2013 7:27 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >>> wrote: >>> >>> I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to >>>> any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said >>>> in >>>> this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom >>>> you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with >>>> boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, >>>> and >>>> I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at >>>> 35 >>>> or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an >>>> unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we >>>> have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due >>>> to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because >>>> they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout >>>> Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should >>>> be >>>> first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, >>>> and >>>> I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad >>>> what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the >>>> family. >>>> Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Beth and all, >>>>> The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion >>>>> as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is >>>>> supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality >>>>> is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the >>>>> real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, >>>>> college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their >>>>> bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that >>>>> the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I >>>>> find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the >>>>> blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in >>>>> reality. >>>>> >>>>> I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but >>>>> I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted >>>>> husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in >>>>> love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright >>>>> that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that >>>>> message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind >>>>> boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our >>>>> family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer >>>>> us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area >>>>> much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is >>>>> not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >>>>> >>>>> I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >>>>> back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >>>>> you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is >>>>> your decision, not theirs. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date >>>>>> the >>>>>> man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes >>>>>> you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>>>> Taurasi >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, all. >>>>>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing >>>>>> the >>>>>> following things: >>>>>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem >>>>>> with >>>>>> because he is blind. >>>>>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, >>>>>> you >>>>>> are >>>>>> married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind >>>>>> woman, >>>>>> and >>>>>> statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind >>>>>> women. >>>>>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>>>> understand >>>>>> the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay >>>>>> my >>>>>> bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my >>>>>> understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >>>>>> finding >>>>>> a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >>>>>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>>>>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>>>>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot >>>>>> of >>>>>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>>>>> move >>>>>> back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back >>>>>> there, I >>>>>> said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>>>>> Please help. >>>>>> Beth >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>>> arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From lissa1531 at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 02:24:49 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 19:24:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net><006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> Message-ID: arielle, I love your posts. You have done it again and made some very good points. If I listened to my family I wouldn't have the life that I have now. Is it easy? No! But doing what my family wants isn't going to make it so either. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world Hi Beth and all, The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in reality. I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is not qualified to judge him in my opinion. I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is your decision, not theirs. Best, Arielle On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: > Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date > the > man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes > you. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world > > Hi, all. > I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the > following things: > 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with > because he is blind. > 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you > are > married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, > and > statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind > women. > 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't > understand > the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my > bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my > understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and > finding > a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. > I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my > particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting > without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of > friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move > back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I > said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." > Please help. > Beth > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 02:49:59 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 21:49:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528D66AC.4050502@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> <528D5C6F.9060206@comcast.net> <528D66AC.4050502@comcast.net> Message-ID: Ok I will write you off list Lavar J phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 20, 2013 8:52 PM, "Beth Taurasi" wrote: > Yes, they think I don't think clearly. Well, if worse came to worse, my bf > Blake said he'd offer his home to me as a refuge for any sort of attempted > injustice on my family's part. I might have to block some people on my FB > page, block some Twitter people, and so on. I will have to make sure that > the privacy settings on Facebook are set to friends only. That's all. > Anyway, you are welcome to call me sometime tomorrow or you can skype me. > My contact info will be at the bottom of this email. > Beth Taurasi > NFBCO > Denver Chapter > denverqueen0920 Skype > 720-435-7407 CellOn 11/20/2013 6:16 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > >> Okay so they think your not thinking clearly. >> Lavar J Phillips >> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >> Twitter lavar1988 >> On Nov 20, 2013 8:07 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >> wrote: >> >> They think it's because of mental health issues, but they are not seeing >>> the big picture. They are to blame for the mental health issues, and >>> they >>> didn't allow me as a teenager to have a boyfriend, to go to prom, to have >>> friends period. They simply isolated me from different clubs, youth >>> groups, and such simply because I had suicidal ideations. There's too >>> much >>> to cover in one email, and I wanna make it short. >>> Beth Taurasi >>> On 11/20/2013 5:48 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: >>> >>> In what way is your family saying you are obsessed with boys ? Have you >>>> not >>>> been with your boyfriend for a long time.?Are they telling you to give >>>> it >>>> time to see if you want kids with him? I understand wanting to be able >>>> to >>>> have a healthy family. My girlfriend is 27 years old as well and I want >>>> kids I love kids >>>> Also your family can't take your freedom away. Sometime family can be a >>>> pain I'm sorry >>>> >>>> Lavar J Phillips >>>> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >>>> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >>>> Twitter lavar1988 >>>> On Nov 20, 2013 7:27 PM, "Beth Taurasi" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice >>>> to >>>> >>>>> any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have >>>>> said >>>>> in >>>>> this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to >>>>> whom >>>>> you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed >>>>> with >>>>> boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, >>>>> and >>>>> I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at >>>>> 35 >>>>> or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an >>>>> unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so >>>>> we >>>>> have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications >>>>> due >>>>> to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because >>>>> they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout >>>>> Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should >>>>> be >>>>> first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, >>>>> and >>>>> I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so >>>>> sad >>>>> what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the >>>>> family. >>>>> Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Beth and all, >>>>> >>>>>> The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion >>>>>> as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is >>>>>> supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality >>>>>> is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the >>>>>> real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, >>>>>> college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their >>>>>> bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that >>>>>> the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I >>>>>> find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the >>>>>> blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in >>>>>> reality. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but >>>>>> I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted >>>>>> husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in >>>>>> love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright >>>>>> that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that >>>>>> message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind >>>>>> boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our >>>>>> family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer >>>>>> us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area >>>>>> much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is >>>>>> not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >>>>>> back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >>>>>> you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is >>>>>> your decision, not theirs. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Arielle >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't >>>>>> date >>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it >>>>>>> takes >>>>>>> you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth >>>>>>> Taurasi >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, all. >>>>>>> I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of >>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> following things: >>>>>>> 1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> because he is blind. >>>>>>> 2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind >>>>>>> woman, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with >>>>>>> blind >>>>>>> women. >>>>>>> 3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>>>>> understand >>>>>>> the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I >>>>>>> pay >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >>>>>>> finding >>>>>>> a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >>>>>>> I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>>>>>> without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should >>>>>>> move >>>>>>> back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back >>>>>>> there, I >>>>>>> said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>>>>>> Please help. >>>>>>> Beth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>>>> justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>>>> arielle71%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>>> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>>> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >>> lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ > lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > From Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org Thu Nov 21 13:46:56 2013 From: Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org (Wasif, Zunaira) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 13:46:56 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In-Reply-To: References: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>, Message-ID: <578c30e5c0b7434398b437bf170b4337@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> According to Georgia Industries personnel, they pay at least minimum wage. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Anill Lewis told me that they paid only $3.00 an hour! That's ridiculous! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In my experience it is not subminimum wage. Why do you think that? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring No! Don't even put it on here! Georgia Industries pays blind workers under the federally mandated minimum wage! We're boycotting them, and Goodwill! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list (nabs-l at nfbnet.org) Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Georgia Industries for the Blind is hiring for assembly positions and potentially sowing positions as well. Email me off list if you need more information. I don't have all of the details, but I'll help you out if I can. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Thu Nov 21 14:24:25 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:24:25 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In-Reply-To: <578c30e5c0b7434398b437bf170b4337@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> References: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>, , <578c30e5c0b7434398b437bf170b4337@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: Thank God they finally changed! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 7:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring According to Georgia Industries personnel, they pay at least minimum wage. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Anill Lewis told me that they paid only $3.00 an hour! That's ridiculous! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In my experience it is not subminimum wage. Why do you think that? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring No! Don't even put it on here! Georgia Industries pays blind workers under the federally mandated minimum wage! We're boycotting them, and Goodwill! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list (nabs-l at nfbnet.org) Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Georgia Industries for the Blind is hiring for assembly positions and potentially sowing positions as well. Email me off list if you need more information. I don't have all of the details, but I'll help you out if I can. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 16:53:25 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 10:53:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Beth, Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than any words. I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like being told what I can and can not do, grin. My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was the right decision, right person. I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't want to be involved, that's his loss. Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be picked up by others. As for children, I have a very Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else as a sighted person. Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! Bridgit From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 17:25:39 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 11:25:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Why must we constantly say, "But it's difficult for blind people, fill in blank..." I mean, it can be difficult for anyone living in rural areas to meet people. As long as we have to constantly quantify things, sighted people will too. Disabled or not, dating is dating. Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 10:40:52 -0700 From: Beth Taurasi To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world Message-ID: <528CF424.8010108 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ok. You're right. What I'm concerned about is people not understanding not only that I've got this, I'm on top of my game, and that sort of thing, but that I'm also not putting myself in any more danger than the average person. My cousin says I should not meet others online at all, and she doesn't understand that disabled people in rural and hard to staff areas have to do that. Case in point, myself included. Beth TaurasiOn 11/20/2013 From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 17:57:21 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 10:57:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <528E4981.9040909@comcast.net> You're so weird. *grin* I say that to all those who get the point right. I recently got a firestorm of bad comments and a false statement made to me on Facebook regarding my capabilities to date due to mental health issues. An old VI teacher even said I had to have legal action taken to ensure that I don't chase after boys. WEll, that was high school, this is post college. I'm not in college and could not finish my degree because of all this drama surrounding my life, and this is just what my family wants me to do, give up, resign, etc. Blake is a really great guy and I don't deserve this unsupportive comment right now. Beth On 11/21/2013 9:53 AM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Beth, > > Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be > family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to > move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult > with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If > they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than > any words. > > I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really > think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted > person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to > care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like > being told what I can and can not do, grin. > > My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or > blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been > a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was > the right decision, right person. > > I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. > Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the > bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at > a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And > let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. > > Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume > no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things > like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't > want to be involved, that's his loss. > > Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to > settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel > you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop > thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be > picked up by others. > > As for children, I have a very > Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only > am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been > recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing > spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family > since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to > demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do > little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but > it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. > > So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, > that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and > if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as > capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else > as a sighted person. > > Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot > trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! > > Bridgit > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Nov 21 18:29:43 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:29:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Beth, First, many, many women have children after 35. Technically, it gets more and more difficult to have children after 30 just because women are born with so many eggs that do not remain our entire life, but, if you're healthy, there's no reason to think you can't have children after 30. I had my first child at 31, and I'm type one diabetic. I have friends much older than me who had their first child well after 35. So this isn't a reason to rush children, or think you can't after a certain age. Also, the urgency to marry and have children shouldn't lead your relationship. Just let life happen. If you and your partner are ready for this, then do it. But at 27, honey , no one has a say in your choices but you. If you really love this person and see a future, move forward; not because you think you're reaching a sell-by-date and need to marry and have children by a certain time, but because you truly want to and are ready, and you have met the right person to do these things with. No one should dictate your choices. Beth, you say it's your life, your choices, but your actions indicate you are giving too much weight to what your family thinks and says. Again, at 27, you're a grown up and can make your own choices. Seeking advice and wisdom is great, but ultimately, you need to do what is right for you. If you're seeking a relationship just because you think you need to mate by your 30's, then maybe your family has a point, but if you really love this guy and want to be with him, then no one can stop you. So don't let people, or your own self-inflicted timeline dictate your life. Things truly happen when they are suppose too. Bridgit Message: 2 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:26:29 -0700 From: Beth Taurasi To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world Message-ID: <528D5335.3000706 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said in this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, and I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should be first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, and I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the family. Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 18:30:15 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 13:30:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: <528E4981.9040909@comcast.net> References: <528E4981.9040909@comcast.net> Message-ID: Don't give up if you need to talk call me I don't mind I hope things get better for you Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 21, 2013 12:58 PM, "Beth Taurasi" wrote: > You're so weird. *grin* I say that to all those who get the point right. > I recently got a firestorm of bad comments and a false statement made to > me on Facebook regarding my capabilities to date due to mental health > issues. An old VI teacher even said I had to have legal action taken to > ensure that I don't chase after boys. WEll, that was high school, this is > post college. I'm not in college and could not finish my degree because of > all this drama surrounding my life, and this is just what my family wants > me to do, give up, resign, etc. Blake is a really great guy and I don't > deserve this unsupportive comment right now. > Beth > On 11/21/2013 9:53 AM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > >> Beth, >> >> Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be >> family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to >> move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult >> with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If >> they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than >> any words. >> >> I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really >> think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted >> person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to >> care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like >> being told what I can and can not do, grin. >> >> My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or >> blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been >> a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was >> the right decision, right person. >> >> I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. >> Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the >> bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at >> a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And >> let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. >> >> Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume >> no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things >> like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't >> want to be involved, that's his loss. >> >> Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to >> settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel >> you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop >> thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be >> picked up by others. >> >> As for children, I have a very >> Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only >> am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been >> recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing >> spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family >> since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to >> demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do >> little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but >> it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. >> >> So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, >> that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and >> if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as >> capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else >> as a sighted person. >> >> Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot >> trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! >> >> Bridgit >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ >> denverqueen1107%40comcast.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ > lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 18:37:16 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 13:37:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sometimes you just got to not deal with people Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 21, 2013 11:54 AM, "Bridgit Pollpeter" wrote: > Beth, > > Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be > family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to > move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult > with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If > they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than > any words. > > I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really > think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted > person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to > care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like > being told what I can and can not do, grin. > > My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or > blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been > a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was > the right decision, right person. > > I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. > Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the > bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at > a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And > let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. > > Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume > no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things > like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't > want to be involved, that's his loss. > > Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to > settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel > you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop > thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be > picked up by others. > > As for children, I have a very > Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only > am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been > recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing > spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family > since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to > demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do > little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but > it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. > > So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, > that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and > if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as > capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else > as a sighted person. > > Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot > trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! > > Bridgit > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 18:48:12 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 10:48:12 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: <528E4981.9040909@comcast.net> References: <528E4981.9040909@comcast.net> Message-ID: Good morning, Beth, and other threadmates, Just remember that, sighted peoples' perceptions and values just aren't like ours. It's nothing, in my view, about politics or social rights or lack there of. It can be interpreted through the experience of blonds vs. brunettes. How can such populations be thought of as identical if they are in fact, separate animals? It's the same as blind vs. sighted. As much as some of us strive for political/social equality, there will always remain a fundamental difference in how we "regard our worlds and what is meaningful to us. For example, in while dressing each morning, I draw upon my own ideas of what I enjoy perceiving in someone else, and devote particular attention to tending those aspects of my personal appearance which I find to be meaningful, when I am perceiving someone else. So, what do I notice? Which aspects stand out? Do they smell good, do I enjoy touching the fabric they are wearing? Same with mates. Most sighted women would be closed to a blind boyfriend, just as I used to be until, low and behold, I hooked up with another total! for today, Car 408-209-3239: >You're so weird. *grin* I say that to all those who get the point >right. I recently got a firestorm of bad comments and a false >statement made to me on Facebook regarding my capabilities to date >due to mental health issues. An old VI teacher even said I had to >have legal action taken to ensure that I don't chase after >boys. WEll, that was high school, this is post college. I'm not in >college and could not finish my degree because of all this drama >surrounding my life, and this is just what my family wants me to do, >give up, resign, etc. Blake is a really great guy and I don't >deserve this unsupportive comment right now. >Beth >On 11/21/2013 9:53 AM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >>Beth, >> >>Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be >>family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to >>move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult >>with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If >>they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than >>any words. >> >>I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really >>think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted >>person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to >>care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like >>being told what I can and can not do, grin. >> >>My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or >>blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been >>a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was >>the right decision, right person. >> >>I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. >>Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the >>bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at >>a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And >>let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. >> >>Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume >>no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things >>like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't >>want to be involved, that's his loss. >> >>Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to >>settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel >>you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop >>thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be >>picked up by others. >> >>As for children, I have a very >>Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only >>am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been >>recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing >>spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family >>since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to >>demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do >>little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but >>it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. >> >>So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, >>that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and >>if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as >>capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else >>as a sighted person. >> >>Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot >>trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! >> >>Bridgit >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 18:51:13 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 10:51:13 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good morning, Lavar, Avoidance? I don't believe you really mean that...it's chicken shit. You oughta just deal with it.pave the road for the next guy or, do we also not believe in that? for today, Car 408-209-323937 AM 11/21/2013, Lavar Phillips wrote: >Sometimes you just got to not deal with people > >Lavar J Phillips >5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >Cell # (917) 858 3368 >Twitter lavar1988 >On Nov 21, 2013 11:54 AM, "Bridgit Pollpeter" >wrote: > > > Beth, > > > > Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be > > family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to > > move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult > > with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If > > they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than > > any words. > > > > I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really > > think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted > > person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to > > care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like > > being told what I can and can not do, grin. > > > > My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or > > blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been > > a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was > > the right decision, right person. > > > > I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. > > Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the > > bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at > > a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And > > let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. > > > > Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume > > no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things > > like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't > > want to be involved, that's his loss. > > > > Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to > > settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel > > you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop > > thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be > > picked up by others. > > > > As for children, I have a very > > Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only > > am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been > > recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing > > spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family > > since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to > > demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do > > little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but > > it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. > > > > So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, > > that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and > > if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as > > capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else > > as a sighted person. > > > > Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot > > trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! > > > > Bridgit > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 21 19:14:41 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:14:41 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <528E5BA1.6080508@comcast.net> Hey Bridget, you're right. I truly love Blake, and there's nothing stopping me from loving him right now. But we won't be marrying until he has the financial stability in place so he can take care of his family. After all, I think being a stay at home mom would not be so bad. When the kids go to school and tai kwon doh, we want them to be safe, then I'll consider both learning the martial art of tai kwon doh and perhaps working from home and in an office. This way, we can expand on our income as a family. That's waht I'm thinking. I just don't want Blake to be all freaked out over an unhealthy child, no matter how hard I try to take care of my body. We know that certain prenatal tests are out for now because of the risk of docs saying we need to abort and stuff, and about 80% of down's Syndrome cases in fetuses are now being aborted because people are stupid and don't know much about Down's. They haven't read "Count Us In", written by two Down's Syndrome men who grew up with the disorder. Their moms were told to put the boys away, but like good parents should, both moms kept the boys and they became friends. IF Blake and I end up with a child who has Down's, we know they can go far even with the disorder. So what? AT least the product will be there, and a family can be established, but adoption might be another option if I pass fifty by the time we're ready to actually make a commitment. What I'm worried about though with adoption is the real world thing that says blind parents can't adopt. I don't know how many blind Colorado people have adopted kids and how they went about doing it, but because of mental health complications, I don't know if adoption or even fostering is an option because nobody will give me good words. Beth On 11/21/2013 11:29 AM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Beth, > > First, many, many women have children after 35. Technically, it gets > more and more difficult to have children after 30 just because women are > born with so many eggs that do not remain our entire life, but, if > you're healthy, there's no reason to think you can't have children after > 30. I had my first child at 31, and I'm type one diabetic. I have > friends much older than me who had their first child well after 35. So > this isn't a reason to rush children, or think you can't after a certain > age. > > Also, the urgency to marry and have children shouldn't lead your > relationship. Just let life happen. If you and your partner are ready > for this, then do it. But at 27, honey , no one has a say in your > choices but you. If you really love this person and see a future, move > forward; not because you think you're reaching a sell-by-date and need > to marry and have children by a certain time, but because you truly want > to and are ready, and you have met the right person to do these things > with. > > No one should dictate your choices. Beth, you say it's your life, your > choices, but your actions indicate you are giving too much weight to > what your family thinks and says. Again, at 27, you're a grown up and > can make your own choices. Seeking advice and wisdom is great, but > ultimately, you need to do what is right for you. > > If you're seeking a relationship just because you think you need to mate > by your 30's, then maybe your family has a point, but if you really love > this guy and want to be with him, then no one can stop you. > > So don't let people, or your own self-inflicted timeline dictate your > life. Things truly happen when they are suppose too. > > Bridgit > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:26:29 -0700 > From: Beth Taurasi > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world > Message-ID: <528D5335.3000706 at comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to > any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said > > in this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to > whom you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am > obsessed with boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have > any kids yet, and I really want to have healthy pregnancies like > everyone else and not at 35 or older. I'd like to be able to marry as > young as I can, but 35 is an unacceptable age to be pregnant, and > Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we have to gauge how much time we have > left before there's complications due to age and stuff. My family > doesn't really want me to do it because they're fleshly and require > fleshly things. Blake and I are devout Christians, and don't believe so > > much that the all important job should be first before marriage. I > gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, and I'm afraid it will be > ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad what families often > think of us, as their pets, not full members of the family. Beth On > 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 21:08:10 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:08:10 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: <528e5644.0881e50a.6f45.ffffe770SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <528e5644.0881e50a.6f45.ffffe770SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <1F356D4D-23D1-42CA-858C-6F7E1C7241B8@gmail.com> At a certain point, if a particular relationship is becoming destructive or in some way hindering your well being, you absolutely need to distance yourself. Not doing so is by far easier in the short term, but will only result in the same problems long term. There is no shame in cutting off the poisonous influences in your life. Often, it is the only reasonable option. You can't force others to change. You can only change how you handle them. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 21, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > > Good morning, Lavar, > > Avoidance? I don't believe you really mean that...it's chicken shit. You oughta just deal with it.pave the road for the next guy or, do we also not believe in that? > for today, Car > 408-209-323937 AM 11/21/2013, Lavar Phillips wrote: >> Sometimes you just got to not deal with people >> >> Lavar J Phillips >> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >> Twitter lavar1988 >> On Nov 21, 2013 11:54 AM, "Bridgit Pollpeter" >> wrote: >> >> > Beth, >> > >> > Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be >> > family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to >> > move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult >> > with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If >> > they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than >> > any words. >> > >> > I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really >> > think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted >> > person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to >> > care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like >> > being told what I can and can not do, grin. >> > >> > My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or >> > blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been >> > a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was >> > the right decision, right person. >> > >> > I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. >> > Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the >> > bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at >> > a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And >> > let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. >> > >> > Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume >> > no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things >> > like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't >> > want to be involved, that's his loss. >> > >> > Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to >> > settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel >> > you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop >> > thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be >> > picked up by others. >> > >> > As for children, I have a very >> > Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only >> > am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been >> > recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing >> > spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family >> > since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to >> > demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do >> > little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but >> > it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. >> > >> > So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, >> > that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and >> > if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as >> > capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else >> > as a sighted person. >> > >> > Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot >> > trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! >> > >> > Bridgit >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 21:34:19 2013 From: ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com (ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:34:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: <1F356D4D-23D1-42CA-858C-6F7E1C7241B8@gmail.com> References: <528e5644.0881e50a.6f45.ffffe770SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1F356D4D-23D1-42CA-858C-6F7E1C7241B8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <885EAD15-D5D5-4BBD-B036-21892EDCFCCE@gmail.com> Jamie You mind if I use that last email you sent as a quote on Facebook? I really like how you phrased it. I will not be using your name. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 21, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: > > At a certain point, if a particular relationship is becoming destructive or in some way hindering your well being, you absolutely need to distance yourself. Not doing so is by far easier in the short term, but will only result in the same problems long term. There is no shame in cutting off the poisonous influences in your life. Often, it is the only reasonable option. You can't force others to change. You can only change how you handle them. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 21, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >> >> >> >> Good morning, Lavar, >> >> Avoidance? I don't believe you really mean that...it's chicken shit. You oughta just deal with it.pave the road for the next guy or, do we also not believe in that? >> for today, Car >> 408-209-323937 AM 11/21/2013, Lavar Phillips wrote: >>> Sometimes you just got to not deal with people >>> >>> Lavar J Phillips >>> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >>> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >>> Twitter lavar1988 >>> On Nov 21, 2013 11:54 AM, "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Beth, >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be >>>> family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to >>>> move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult >>>> with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If >>>> they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than >>>> any words. >>>> >>>> I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really >>>> think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted >>>> person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to >>>> care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like >>>> being told what I can and can not do, grin. >>>> >>>> My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or >>>> blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been >>>> a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was >>>> the right decision, right person. >>>> >>>> I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. >>>> Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the >>>> bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at >>>> a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And >>>> let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. >>>> >>>> Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume >>>> no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things >>>> like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't >>>> want to be involved, that's his loss. >>>> >>>> Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to >>>> settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel >>>> you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop >>>> thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be >>>> picked up by others. >>>> >>>> As for children, I have a very >>>> Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only >>>> am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been >>>> recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing >>>> spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family >>>> since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to >>>> demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do >>>> little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but >>>> it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. >>>> >>>> So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, >>>> that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and >>>> if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as >>>> capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else >>>> as a sighted person. >>>> >>>> Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot >>>> trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! >>>> >>>> Bridgit >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 21:46:18 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:46:18 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: <885EAD15-D5D5-4BBD-B036-21892EDCFCCE@gmail.com> References: <528e5644.0881e50a.6f45.ffffe770SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <1F356D4D-23D1-42CA-858C-6F7E1C7241B8@gmail.com> <885EAD15-D5D5-4BBD-B036-21892EDCFCCE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <84971227-3902-4CC0-8A1A-BD4032A9096F@gmail.com> Go for it! Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 21, 2013, at 2:34 PM, ichoosechrist2 at gmail.com wrote: > > Jamie > > You mind if I use that last email you sent as a quote on Facebook? I really like how you phrased it. I will not be using your name. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 21, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Jamie Principato wrote: >> >> At a certain point, if a particular relationship is becoming destructive or in some way hindering your well being, you absolutely need to distance yourself. Not doing so is by far easier in the short term, but will only result in the same problems long term. There is no shame in cutting off the poisonous influences in your life. Often, it is the only reasonable option. You can't force others to change. You can only change how you handle them. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Good morning, Lavar, >>> >>> Avoidance? I don't believe you really mean that...it's chicken shit. You oughta just deal with it.pave the road for the next guy or, do we also not believe in that? >>> for today, Car >>> 408-209-323937 AM 11/21/2013, Lavar Phillips wrote: >>>> Sometimes you just got to not deal with people >>>> >>>> Lavar J Phillips >>>> 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 >>>> Cell # (917) 858 3368 >>>> Twitter lavar1988 >>>> On Nov 21, 2013 11:54 AM, "Bridgit Pollpeter" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Beth, >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately, this will just happen sometimes in life, whether it be >>>>> family, friends or strangers. At the end of the day, you just need to >>>>> move forward and not even deal with people like this. It's difficult >>>>> with family, but I wouldn't engage them unless at a family gathering. If >>>>> they seek you out, ignore it. You living your life will prove more than >>>>> any words. >>>>> >>>>> I'm a formally sighted person, but when I lost my sight, I didn't really >>>>> think one way over another about dating a blind person or sighted >>>>> person. Some people in my life assumed I would need a sighted person to >>>>> care for me, but I didn't really accept that concept. Plus, I don't like >>>>> being told what I can and can not do, grin. >>>>> >>>>> My husband is also blind, but it has nothing to do with sight or >>>>> blindness. We met, and it was just the right person. He could have been >>>>> a Martian for all it mattered, because eight years later, I know it was >>>>> the right decision, right person. >>>>> >>>>> I wasn't even looking for a relationship at the time; it just happened. >>>>> Though I have my list, disability wasn't on it, or at least was on the >>>>> bottom. I saw him for him, and he saw me for me. We were not looking at >>>>> a single aspect of one another or what the other could do for us. And >>>>> let me tell you, love at first sight is possible when blind, smile. >>>>> >>>>> Don't think in terms of sighted or blind, disabled or not. Don't assume >>>>> no one wants to date you because you're blind. Be confident, try things >>>>> like initiating conversation, and just be your self. If a guy doesn't >>>>> want to be involved, that's his loss. >>>>> >>>>> Plus, let me guess, you're in your 20's right? There's plenty of time to >>>>> settle down. There's nothing wrong with being single, and if you feel >>>>> you're ready for a relationship, put yourself out there, but stop >>>>> thinking blindness is a strike against you. This negative aura will be >>>>> picked up by others. >>>>> >>>>> As for children, I have a very >>>>> Active 15 month-old, and I'm a stay-at-home parent right now. Not only >>>>> am I able to competently and safely raise a child, but I've been >>>>> recognized in my community for doing so. Though I'm doing nothing >>>>> spectacular, the local media has put a spotlight on me and my family >>>>> since Ross and I are blind parents. We've had an amazing opportunity to >>>>> demonstrate how it's possible to be a blind parent. And honestly, I do >>>>> little differently than a sighted parent. Raising kids isn't easy, but >>>>> it really shouldn't be more difficult for blind people than anyone else. >>>>> >>>>> So, present your argument diplomatically and intelligently, but really, >>>>> that's all you can do. It's up to others to accept what you present, and >>>>> if they're close-minded, that's not your problem. Know you are just as >>>>> capable of dating, being independent, raising children and anything else >>>>> as a sighted person. >>>>> >>>>> Which BTW, my Little Guy is squeezing himself into a very tight spot >>>>> trying to reach some cords. Better run, grin! >>>>> >>>>> Bridgit >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ichoosechrist2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 23:12:28 2013 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 18:12:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... Message-ID: Hi Everyone: I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register and take the pretzel orders. There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. I am considering applying at these places. Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and to show me that I can in fact work. I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I respond? In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. Thanks, Kerri From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Thu Nov 21 23:40:05 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 18:40:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There ate talking cash registers when I worked in a BEP stand we had them. Everytime you pressed a button it talked back to you . I don't know if that's a feature or if it was specially built Hope this helps Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 On Nov 21, 2013 6:14 PM, "Kerri Kosten" wrote: > Hi Everyone: > > I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. > Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew > members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and > serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register > and take the pretzel orders. > There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) > opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. > I am considering applying at these places. > Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? > Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind > person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? > I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn > my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to > find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and > to show me that I can in fact work. > I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and > they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like > "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I > respond? > In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness > there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up > but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and > applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lavarjphillips%40gmail.com > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 00:06:04 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 19:06:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Survey Platforms Message-ID: <01e801cee716$a30c4470$e924cd50$@gmail.com> Hello, Can anyone, especially those graduate students who run surveys for their studies, recommend a good survey tool accessible to screen readers?The tool should allow for as many questions as I need, and if possible, I'd like questions to automatically adjust according to predefined criteria. For example, if X response, then Y Question will populate the next screen. If you have any ideas, I'd love your assistance at your earliest convenience. Thanks much in advance. Joe From ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 00:13:52 2013 From: ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com (ryan bishop) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 17:13:52 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kerri, I know that that pretzel store you were talking about has an at home kit you can go out and buy and make at home. Yes, that will be a slight difference then they do at the work place, but you can at least get the experience of cooking them so you could be able to do that at work. As for the accessible cash registers, I'm sure they have something. I will do some research on that and get back to you. Ryan Ryan Bishop Ryan.bishop96 at gmail.com 480-221-5195 Secretary Arizona Association of blind students http://az.nfb.org/aabs Webmaster National Federation of the Blind of Arizona http://az.nfb.org Vehicle Donations Take the Blind Further, and may qualify you for a tax deduction. Donate your unwanted car to the National Federation of the Blind today! For more information, please visit: http://www.carshelpingtheblind.org or call 1-855-659-9314 The problem of blindness is not the lack of eyesight. The real problem is the misunderstanding and lack of information that exists. If a blind person has proper training and opportunity, blindness is only a physical nuisance. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerri Kosten Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 4:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; Blind Talk Mailing List; NFB Talk Mailing List; Ed McDonald Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... Hi Everyone: I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register and take the pretzel orders. There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. I am considering applying at these places. Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and to show me that I can in fact work. I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I respond? In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. Thanks, Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.bishop96%40gmail.co m From lavarjphillips at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 00:38:52 2013 From: lavarjphillips at gmail.com (Lavar Phillips) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 19:38:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hobby Message-ID: Does anyone here belong to a hobby group . I live in NYC I am looking for I guess a movie group. Any advice on how to find one. I like going to first showings of popular movies. Lavar J Phillips 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 Cell # (917) 858 3368 Twitter lavar1988 From clb5590 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 00:51:42 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 16:51:42 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Meet up.com is a really good place. There are tons of meet ups in many cities. You can also find more professional networking groups. Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology: UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 21, 2013, at 4:38 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > > Does anyone here belong to a hobby group . I live in NYC I am looking for > I guess a movie group. Any advice on how to find one. I like going to first > showings of popular movies. > Lavar J Phillips > 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 > Cell # (917) 858 3368 > Twitter lavar1988 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 01:53:55 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 18:53:55 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CBC8117-14F3-448C-AE20-5ED1DF97F77A@gmail.com> There are talking cash registers, and depending on your circumstances, there are also ways to mark buttons on regular cash registers with Braille label tape or sticky dots. If you have a bill reader device or an app on your phone that can so the same thing, handling customers cash will be easy, and when making change, you'll know all the money in the register is sorted and just need to memorize the location of ones, tens, fives and so on. I've known blind teenagers who ran a register at fast food chains in the past. It can certainly be done. As for food prep, pretzels are a very tactile thing to make. You'll have your hands on the dough, twisting and shaping it. You won't be making anything in small quantities. It will all be big batches, so measuring should be easier than filling tiny teaspoons and cups. Have you used an oven before? If so, very similar safety principals apply to commercial ovens. As long as you keep your work station organized and mark any controls or buttons with tactile labels, there is no reason a blind person can't do everything necessary to run a pretzels stand. Any other tasks will be basic cleaning, washing tools and counter tops, sweeping and tidying up. All things you should already be doing in your own home. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 21, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > > Hi Everyone: > > I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. > Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew > members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and > serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register > and take the pretzel orders. > There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) > opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. > I am considering applying at these places. > Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? > Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind > person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? > I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn > my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to > find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and > to show me that I can in fact work. > I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and > they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like > "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I > respond? > In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness > there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up > but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and > applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 01:58:58 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 18:58:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Hobby In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20B47D22-BB15-473F-A692-34A1B7B2614F@gmail.com> Meetup.com is great for finding hobby groups. I joined an art circle through meetup shortly after I moved and enjoyed meeting other artists to work on projects together. If you're a student, your school may also have shared interest groups you can join. I'm currently Vice President of an organization at my school called SciQuest. We go on monthly field trips to interesting science-related places around Colorado, like museums, caves and wildlife sanctuaries. We also do a lot to give back to the community with science, like caring for the school's green house and selling the plants to raise money for the homeless. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 21, 2013, at 5:38 PM, Lavar Phillips wrote: > > Does anyone here belong to a hobby group . I live in NYC I am looking for > I guess a movie group. Any advice on how to find one. I like going to first > showings of popular movies. > Lavar J Phillips > 5003 48 Street Woodside New York 11377 > Cell # (917) 858 3368 > Twitter lavar1988 > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Nov 22 02:10:58 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 19:10:58 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In my opinion, not knowing your financial state, going to school would be a better first place to turn your life around. Unskilled jobs are the most visual and although many can probably be done they will be a lot harder to make accessible than skilled/professional job. School can mean just a training program, certificate, degree...You would probably be able to get financial aid and or rehab to cover it. I personally feel that there is more discrimination in entry level jobs vs skilled positions. just my 2 cents good luck On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hi Everyone: > > I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. > Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew > members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and > serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register > and take the pretzel orders. > There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) > opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. > I am considering applying at these places. > Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? > Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind > person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? > I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn > my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to > find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and > to show me that I can in fact work. > I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and > they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like > "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I > respond? > In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness > there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up > but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and > applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 02:23:26 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 21:23:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software Message-ID: Hello all, I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main component of the course involves doing work with the StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you have had experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or not? I'm just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform any of the assignments. Thanks for any help you can give. Cheers, Minh -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From emilypennington at fuse.net Fri Nov 22 02:32:22 2013 From: emilypennington at fuse.net (Emily Pennington) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 21:32:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> Hi, Minh. I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. Fortunately for me, our class is business-based, and we only use Excel, which works 99.9237% of the time. I know your professor has already designated software package, but if you're having real trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform most statistical functions, and most Stats professors know their way around Excel. If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy to talk some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert by any means, but I've got a nice system down after nearly two semesters, and it's a fascinating subject. Take care, Emily -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software Hello all, I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main component of the course involves doing work with the StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you have had experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or not? I'm just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform any of the assignments. Thanks for any help you can give. Cheers, Minh -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.n et From ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 02:47:35 2013 From: ryan.l.silveira at gmail.com (Ryan Silveira) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 20:47:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> Message-ID: <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> Hi Minh and Emily, While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I absolutely had to, I've done some research on the accessibility of SPSS for some friends. As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible with JAWS or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot of difficulties to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who either use it on the job or in school. There are some other alternatives which are not nearly as good or as reputable as SPSS (because let's face it, sometimes these programs are used more for their reputation than for their actual productivity and feasibility), but they might be better alternatives for you if your professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. It is important that your professor understands that you really cannot use SPSS and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an alternative software which would allow you to do the same work and with the same level of expectations as all of the other students. If you like, I can do some further research on software that would work for you and we can talk further off-list. In the mean time, I think Emily's Excell solution is probably your best bet. If you're having difficulties with your professor, see if you can't persuade your school's disability services people to help you. I hope this is helpful. Take Care, Ryan On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" wrote: > Hi, Minh. > I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. Fortunately for > me, our class is business-based, and we only use Excel, which works 99.9237% > of the time. I know your professor has already designated software package, > but if you're having real trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform most > statistical functions, and most Stats professors know their way around > Excel. > If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy to talk > some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert by any means, but > I've got a nice system down after nearly two semesters, and it's a > fascinating subject. > > Take care, > Emily > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software > > Hello all, > > I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my > sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main > component of the course involves doing work with the StatisticalPackage for > the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you have had > experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or not? I'm > just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform any of > the assignments. > Thanks for any help you can give. > > Cheers, > Minh > > -- > "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty > recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: > but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their > dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.n > et > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 03:06:02 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 20:06:02 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world References: Message-ID: <1C7056F060514E739EEB91B3A7CA9EAE@HP30910210001> Very well said Bridgit . Many times we are told by society that we have to marry and we have to find someone. I am still single and have no children. You have to make your choices and do what is right for you. You don't control who you fall in love with at all. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 11:29 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world Beth, First, many, many women have children after 35. Technically, it gets more and more difficult to have children after 30 just because women are born with so many eggs that do not remain our entire life, but, if you're healthy, there's no reason to think you can't have children after 30. I had my first child at 31, and I'm type one diabetic. I have friends much older than me who had their first child well after 35. So this isn't a reason to rush children, or think you can't after a certain age. Also, the urgency to marry and have children shouldn't lead your relationship. Just let life happen. If you and your partner are ready for this, then do it. But at 27, honey , no one has a say in your choices but you. If you really love this person and see a future, move forward; not because you think you're reaching a sell-by-date and need to marry and have children by a certain time, but because you truly want to and are ready, and you have met the right person to do these things with. No one should dictate your choices. Beth, you say it's your life, your choices, but your actions indicate you are giving too much weight to what your family thinks and says. Again, at 27, you're a grown up and can make your own choices. Seeking advice and wisdom is great, but ultimately, you need to do what is right for you. If you're seeking a relationship just because you think you need to mate by your 30's, then maybe your family has a point, but if you really love this guy and want to be with him, then no one can stop you. So don't let people, or your own self-inflicted timeline dictate your life. Things truly happen when they are suppose too. Bridgit Message: 2 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:26:29 -0700 From: Beth Taurasi To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world Message-ID: <528D5335.3000706 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice to any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would have said in this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in your life as to whom you should marry, but my cousins and family are saying I am obsessed with boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 and don't have any kids yet, and I really want to have healthy pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 or older. I'd like to be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an unacceptable age to be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we have to gauge how much time we have left before there's complications due to age and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job should be first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by coming to Denver, and I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of whatever reason. It's so sad what families often think of us, as their pets, not full members of the family. Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From lissa1531 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 03:07:03 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 20:07:03 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world References: Message-ID: <0041CBD6B05449798F9F6CCE34D36CD1@HP30910210001> Right on. Again well said. Also we shouldn't have to settle because we are blind. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" To: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 10:25 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world Why must we constantly say, "But it's difficult for blind people, fill in blank..." I mean, it can be difficult for anyone living in rural areas to meet people. As long as we have to constantly quantify things, sighted people will too. Disabled or not, dating is dating. Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 10:40:52 -0700 From: Beth Taurasi To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world Message-ID: <528CF424.8010108 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Ok. You're right. What I'm concerned about is people not understanding not only that I've got this, I'm on top of my game, and that sort of thing, but that I'm also not putting myself in any more danger than the average person. My cousin says I should not meet others online at all, and she doesn't understand that disabled people in rural and hard to staff areas have to do that. Case in point, myself included. Beth TaurasiOn 11/20/2013 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 03:05:26 2013 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 22:05:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Minh, Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what you can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm slightly biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. Hope this Helps, Patrick On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: > Hi Minh and Emily, > > While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I absolutely had > to, I've done some research on the accessibility of SPSS for some friends. > As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible with JAWS > or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot of difficulties > to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who either use it on the job > or in school. There are some other alternatives which are not nearly as > good or as reputable as SPSS (because let's face it, sometimes these > programs are used more for their reputation than for their actual > productivity and feasibility), but they might be better alternatives for you > if your professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. It > is important that your professor understands that you really cannot use SPSS > and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an alternative software > which would allow you to do the same work and with the same level of > expectations as all of the other students. If you like, I can do some > further research on software that would work for you and we can talk further > off-list. In the mean time, I think Emily's Excell solution is probably > your best bet. If you're having difficulties with your professor, see if > you can't persuade your school's disability services people to help you. I > hope this is helpful. > > Take Care, > Ryan > > > On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" > wrote: > >> Hi, Minh. >> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. Fortunately for >> me, our class is business-based, and we only use Excel, which works >> 99.9237% >> of the time. I know your professor has already designated software >> package, >> but if you're having real trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform >> most >> statistical functions, and most Stats professors know their way around >> Excel. >> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy to talk >> some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert by any means, >> but >> I've got a nice system down after nearly two semesters, and it's a >> fascinating subject. >> >> Take care, >> Emily >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha >> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >> software >> >> Hello all, >> >> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my >> sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main >> component of the course involves doing work with the StatisticalPackage >> for >> the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you have >> had >> experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or not? >> I'm >> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform any >> of >> the assignments. >> Thanks for any help you can give. >> >> Cheers, >> Minh >> >> -- >> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their >> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.n >> et >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From jsoro620 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 03:06:50 2013 From: jsoro620 at gmail.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 22:06:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000a01cee72f$e3b7dd40$ab2797c0$@gmail.com> I don't know that going to school is always the best method of turning one's life around, not with tuition being what it is these days. If there's a good plan in place to maximize what you get out of a degree or certificate program or whatever, by all means go back, but otherwise I think the original poster should explore this possibility of working at one of these two food establishments. I'd call ahead, ask for a time to come out and meet the manager and see what could be worked out. We won't break the discrimination barrier of entry level jobs if we naturally shy away from them. I'm all for placing more blind people in skilled roles. Yet, not everyone will want that option, and perhaps another way to think about it is that one could work at an entry level job to partially help pay for tuition. I worked full-time through grad school, not the most recommended idea, but it helped teach me a lot about time management and prioritizing. Joe -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Germano Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In my opinion, not knowing your financial state, going to school would be a better first place to turn your life around. Unskilled jobs are the most visual and although many can probably be done they will be a lot harder to make accessible than skilled/professional job. School can mean just a training program, certificate, degree...You would probably be able to get financial aid and or rehab to cover it. I personally feel that there is more discrimination in entry level jobs vs skilled positions. just my 2 cents good luck On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hi Everyone: > > I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. > Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew > members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and > serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register > and take the pretzel orders. > There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) > opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. > I am considering applying at these places. > Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? > Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind > person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? > I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn > my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to > find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and > to show me that I can in fact work. > I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and > they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like > "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I > respond? > In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness > there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up > but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and > applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsoro620%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 04:13:13 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 23:13:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In-Reply-To: <578c30e5c0b7434398b437bf170b4337@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> References: <61f1ddbb69ba4fa4bf023e02e491688b@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com><63d654f6c3c34a8aade97d02050100b9@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>, <578c30e5c0b7434398b437bf170b4337@BL2PR08MB162.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: thanks for letting us know; we should not assume that all nib facilities pay under minimum wage. -----Original Message----- From: Wasif, Zunaira Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 8:46 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring According to Georgia Industries personnel, they pay at least minimum wage. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 7:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Anill Lewis told me that they paid only $3.00 an hour! That's ridiculous! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 12:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring In my experience it is not subminimum wage. Why do you think that? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Lester Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 1:16 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring No! Don't even put it on here! Georgia Industries pays blind workers under the federally mandated minimum wage! We're boycotting them, and Goodwill! Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Wasif, Zunaira [Zunaira.Wasif at dbs.fldoe.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:47 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list (nabs-l at nfbnet.org) Subject: [nabs-l] Georgia Industries hiring Georgia Industries for the Blind is hiring for assembly positions and potentially sowing positions as well. Email me off list if you need more information. I don't have all of the details, but I'll help you out if I can. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/zunaira.wasif%40dbs.fldoe.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 04:21:54 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 23:21:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484D4C7396B74986B4E618C4BC946813@OwnerPC> Suzanne, I think she already went to school. -----Original Message----- From: Suzanne Germano Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:10 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In my opinion, not knowing your financial state, going to school would be a better first place to turn your life around. Unskilled jobs are the most visual and although many can probably be done they will be a lot harder to make accessible than skilled/professional job. School can mean just a training program, certificate, degree...You would probably be able to get financial aid and or rehab to cover it. I personally feel that there is more discrimination in entry level jobs vs skilled positions. just my 2 cents good luck On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hi Everyone: > > I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. > Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew > members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and > serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register > and take the pretzel orders. > There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) > opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. > I am considering applying at these places. > Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? > Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind > person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? > I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn > my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to > find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and > to show me that I can in fact work. > I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and > they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like > "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I > respond? > In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness > there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up > but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and > applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. > Thanks, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 05:26:51 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 00:26:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1750139884264808A9FEDDF47BAE569A@OwnerPC> Kerri, Well this will be tough. I don't think many blind people work at fast food places. What skills do you have with the computer? Do you know the Microsoft suite well? Have you volunteered in offices or other events? Do you have any college, or just a high school diploma? I ask because knowing your skills may help me or others here suggest realistic jobs for you. One idea may be if you like talking on the phone and you have pretty decent computer skills, customer service may be an option. I know several blind people working full time in customer service who have high school diplomas. Also, do you play piano and have a good ear for it? If so, piano tuning may be an option although I don't know where you get trained for it. Another idea I had assuming you have a high school diploma only is telemarketing or doing survey work. Another option may be getting certified as a braille proofreader or transcriber if that interests you. You might should check the spelling of restaurants before writing again. However, I know what you mean as the spelling is close enough. Have you worked with a commercial oven? Have you done any tasks like you'd do at the restaurant such as cleaning counters and kitchen surfaces, organizing large amounts of food, and tiding up the place? If you have done any of this, it will be easier to convince them to give you a chance. If not, still try but it will be harder. I know they have online applications, but I think you should talk to someone in management before applying online. Its best to have human contact. Now my opinion. I think you should try it. I've heard of blind people working in restaurants before. Yes, there are talking cash registers but realisticly they won't pay for that accomodation when they have 50 other applicants not needing that accomodation. Just saying, its not realistic. I don't know of any blind people using cash registers except for the vending program. I follow the braille monitor too and never saw a blind Mcdonalds or Chicken out cash registerer. Yes, its doable if you have a talking register and money identifier, but I know they are not going to accommodate that. I suggest you work behind the scenes where less expensive accomodations can be put in place. Just label the food items and ovens and dish washer and you should be alright. I think you might have a better chance at Anti Anne's pretzels. I know that place; they tend to be less busy even in our busiest mall. As other's said, making pretzels is a hands on tactile thing. You will measure in larger quantaties than you're used to. You will also be required to cover your hands with gloves and wear an apron. There's other safety and sanitation measures too; I just say this so you do not think cooking a pretzel is like cooking it at home. Someone suggested making pretzels at home and I agree with that; this way you know the basic ideas of making them. So give it a try. The cleaning should be similar to cleaning at home. I've been at restaurants near closing time. Generally, I observed their cleaning stuff is just larger. They have vacuum cleaners and mops. They also sweep as well. I hope you have good cleaning skills. If possible, I think you should talk to someone who works at a fast food place to get a sense of what is there and their duties. This way you can think ahead of ways you can contribute and any possible accomodations you need. As for Panera Bread, try it. I know they have one person working the cash register and multiple people taking orders. Other than that, I'm not sure as I haven't seen Panera Bread behind the scenes. I'm sure there is something you can do though, but making the sandwiches may not be the best place to start. I know you can make sandwiches, its just that I believe it would be rather challenging to do it in a time pressured environment and you do not have the advantage of feeling things first hand. Remember to prepare anything, you have to wear gloves. Its just that I want to suggest something you can succeed at, and I think prepping sandwiches and items like it at panera Bread will be challenging; heck, I bet its challenging for anyone as its done precisely; its not like prepping items at home. However there are things you could do. Not knowing the job descriptions, I cannot say if these jobs are full time or even cover a part time worker's job description. I suggest you get more details about what jobs Panera needs; you could do online research, talk to someone in person through your community contacts such as your church, or simply call them up. Just say you are interested in the jobs there and need more details about your responsibilities. Jobs that you could do are dish washer, cleaning the restaurant, setting up items like restocking the napkin holders, and taking orders. You could also be a cator coordinator if you have fairly decent computer skills. I also suggest you check the AFB career connect website to see if you can find a virtual mentor who has worked in the food service industry. I hope it works out. Me, I wish I could work at the movie theatre or a box office as an entry level job. These jobs don't require a college diploma, although I have one, but at least it would be a job using my communication skills. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 6:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; Blind Talk Mailing List ; NFB Talk Mailing List ; Ed McDonald Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... Hi Everyone: I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register and take the pretzel orders. There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. I am considering applying at these places. Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and to show me that I can in fact work. I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I respond? In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. Thanks, Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Fri Nov 22 05:26:37 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 00:26:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Message-ID: Hi everyone, I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. Then to have them say what is the big deal? We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. I just want to know what do people think of all of this? I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. Thanks Bridget Sent from my iPad From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 05:59:18 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 00:59:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridgit, Wow, I had issues but not as many. Mine were related to securing texts in a usable format. Often the ds office sent me pdfs which were unreadable. That, or the pdf text files were very hard to understand because they had half the words stuck together. Often, I just hated the electronic text and gave up that. I was in a unique position to afford hiring readers since my family has that sort of money. So I used readers and taped the reading in case I needed to go back to it. I also had troubles securing accomodations to get access to printed matterial in class; mainly getting the professor's slides and handouts. Anyway, I just say this to point out I, too, had difficult professors, but none so difficult as your situation. You really have a tough situation! I suspect my ideas will be ones you've tried. Here it goes. Refusing to accommodate you is illegal. Meet with the ds office. Then meet with deans. Then see if your school has a formal complaint process and file a complaint. Meanwhile, if you are doing terribly, I suggest withdrawing from the class. For the access problem, this sounds like a huge barrier; its like telling a wheel chair user they can take the class, and failing to provide a ramp to their seat. All I can suggest is see if they will use a different site, but from what you said, they likely won't. What exactly do they do on the google sites? If file sharing, ask your peers to email you the documents. I ran into this issue in english composition, the difference was the professor did not use it all the time as yours does. For this one assignment, I got the professor to email me the student files I needed. Another idea for file sharing is using drop box. I don't see why they cannot just use blackboard or whatever your online classroom system is, instead of google sites. Oh my goodness! It sounds like they're being stubborn. Finally use a reader if they won't give you an alternative way to do the work, but really they should, it’s the law. For the art class, this, too, sounds discriminatory. The professor cannot refuse to grade you provided you can physically do the work. I don't know what to say other than have the ds office counselor meet with you and the art teacher to work it out. Finally, the math course. I am appalled to hear this still happens. I also took a math course in college. I had the very same issue! The book was not accessible on the MY Math Lab software. I used RFB which is now learning ally for my book. In place of doing online work, I did work from the book. Another option is to use a reader. They should give you an alternative assignment since you cannot do your work online. I hope some of this helped. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridget Walker Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 12:26 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Hi everyone, I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. Then to have them say what is the big deal? We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. I just want to know what do people think of all of this? I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. Thanks Bridget Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From trillian551 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 06:44:42 2013 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 01:44:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Minh and all, SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the information that is being shown on screen. Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. Thanks. Mary On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Hi Minh, > Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this > list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've > read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is > SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest > version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical > program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel > is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit > down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what you > can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm slightly > biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. > Hope this Helps, > Patrick > > On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >> Hi Minh and Emily, >> >> While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I absolutely had >> to, I've done some research on the accessibility of SPSS for some >> friends. >> As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible with >> JAWS >> or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot of >> difficulties >> to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who either use it on the >> job >> or in school. There are some other alternatives which are not nearly as >> good or as reputable as SPSS (because let's face it, sometimes these >> programs are used more for their reputation than for their actual >> productivity and feasibility), but they might be better alternatives for >> you >> if your professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >> It >> is important that your professor understands that you really cannot use >> SPSS >> and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an alternative software >> which would allow you to do the same work and with the same level of >> expectations as all of the other students. If you like, I can do some >> further research on software that would work for you and we can talk >> further >> off-list. In the mean time, I think Emily's Excell solution is probably >> your best bet. If you're having difficulties with your professor, see if >> you can't persuade your school's disability services people to help you. >> I >> hope this is helpful. >> >> Take Care, >> Ryan >> >> >> On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, Minh. >>> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. Fortunately >>> for >>> me, our class is business-based, and we only use Excel, which works >>> 99.9237% >>> of the time. I know your professor has already designated software >>> package, >>> but if you're having real trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform >>> most >>> statistical functions, and most Stats professors know their way around >>> Excel. >>> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy to >>> talk >>> some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert by any means, >>> but >>> I've got a nice system down after nearly two semesters, and it's a >>> fascinating subject. >>> >>> Take care, >>> Emily >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha >>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>> software >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my >>> sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main >>> component of the course involves doing work with the StatisticalPackage >>> for >>> the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you have >>> had >>> experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or not? >>> I'm >>> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform any >>> of >>> the assignments. >>> Thanks for any help you can give. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Minh >>> >>> -- >>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their >>> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.n >>> et >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." — Maya Angelou From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Nov 22 06:54:42 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 01:54:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46BF4F2DB9FA4524B59938D38AAF7B55@OwnerPC> Bridgit, Another thing. It must be very stressful running into all these unaccomodating professors. This might delay your graduation date, but it may help you get a good grade in the long run. Can you drop the art and math classes? Its obvious they are not working with the professor refusing to grade you and the other professor using My Math Lab which is not accessible. I suppose if your math professor is accomodating, you can work around the issue by getting alternative assignments to complete homework. I suggest taking them another semester with a different professor. When I had professor issues that were not resolved, I withdrew from the class and took it again with another professor. Still another option might be to get a course substitution in place of the art or math class. If you cannot complete a class due to your disability, all schools I attended let you substitute a class for that class that was related. I mean if it was an english class, they might let you take another english class in place of it. I think the ds office should provide a human reader to read the tests and inaccessible computer material. Have you asked for that? I agree math and jaws are not a good combo. Bridgit you have a legal right to take your exams in an accessible format so this means braille or a qualified math reader. If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely file a complaint. This excuse about not being confident to run the embosser is crap. They have the responsibility to learn to use assistive technology. I would hope there is a blindness technology vendor who they could learn from. If not, they can always hire one or take webinars. Carroll center for the blind has online technology training for duxbury. Also AFB has technology trainers who can travel out there for a fee. If I knew the state and / or the city, I might know of some resources where they could get tech assistance. They also should have a reader to read the content on that My math lab software if you cannot complete your work another way. That is terrible they cannot braille your math exams. They should have gotten the appropriate software to braille math. All they need is scientific Notebook to convert text to nemeth. They probably will come up with some excuse that they cannot even provide a qualified reader when you request this instead of jaws. They could hire someone from the math department to do this. You need someone that can articulate all those math symbols. Which kind of math class is this? If they do this, one way is to work something out with your professor. Some ideas are these. 1. Get a TA to read you the exam. You can write out the problems as they read it to you so you can work out the problems. This assumes you have TA's; if not, maybe another staff member or professor of the math department could do it. 2. Have the professor read the test on a recorder or digitally record it on a pc and give you a USB drive with the file. Then you can write your answers in braille or with a pc and jaws. If braille, you'll need to read out your work to him or her since they cannot read braille. You could even take the exam orally with the professor in their office if you and he/she are comfortable with this. I never was comfortable taking a test privately with a professor though. 3. I know the latest Braille Note has support for nemeth. If you have this, maybe use it. Take a USB drive and read the test on your Braille Note. 4. Do you or your school have access to a braille display? If so, try and hook it up to the pc so you can read the test in braille. I doubt this will work, as I don't think it automatically converts to nemeth, but may be worth a try. 5. Hire your own reader and take the exam in the professor's office. 6. Do a take home exam. Another idea is they can outsource brailling your tests. Have you asked about this? I don't know if there is a braille vendor near you. But, the lighthouses often do brailling on short projects like this. If they are cooperative, they can find a braille source. I hope it works out. I just wrote a separate email about the tests as I did not address that before and as I read your message again, I saw this and felt it is a major issue. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridget Walker Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 12:26 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Hi everyone, I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. Then to have them say what is the big deal? We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. I just want to know what do people think of all of this? I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. Thanks Bridget Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From pompey2010 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 22 07:54:35 2013 From: pompey2010 at yahoo.com (Bobbi Pompey) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 02:54:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them know that you know your rights. I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. > So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. > I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? > My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. > One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. > Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. > Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. > Then to have them say what is the big deal? > We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. > I just want to know what do people think of all of this? > I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. > I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. > I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. > Thanks > Bridget > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 22 09:49:49 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:49:49 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> References: , <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bridget! Good grief! You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris Danielson, and get the NFB involved! Can anyone say lawsuit? I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, but it looks like you have! Good grief! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them know that you know your rights. I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! Bobbi A. L. Pompey (336) 988-6375 pompey2010 at yahoo.com http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker wrote: > > Hi everyone, > I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. > So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. > I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? > My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. > One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. > Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. > Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. > Then to have them say what is the big deal? > We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. > I just want to know what do people think of all of this? > I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. > I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. > I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. > Thanks > Bridget > > > Sent from my iPad > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From tyler at tysdomain.com Fri Nov 22 14:52:59 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:52:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: , <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but why not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue lets sue o yeah lawsuit!" On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Bridget! > Good grief! > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris Danielson, and get the NFB involved! > Can anyone say lawsuit? > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, but it looks like you have! > Good grief! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them know that you know your rights. > > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >> Thanks >> Bridget >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 22 14:57:04 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 14:57:04 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> References: , <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> , <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <963be8983ca1423e8dc8699a2693c86d@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> She already explained that she has exhausted all other options! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Littlefield, Tyler [tyler at tysdomain.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:52 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but why not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue lets sue o yeah lawsuit!" On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Bridget! > Good grief! > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris Danielson, and get the NFB involved! > Can anyone say lawsuit? > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, but it looks like you have! > Good grief! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them know that you know your rights. > > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >> Thanks >> Bridget >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 14:59:28 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:59:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> References: , <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> Where should she take it? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but why not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue lets sue o yeah lawsuit!" On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Bridget! > Good grief! > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris Danielson, and get the NFB involved! > Can anyone say lawsuit? > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, but it looks like you have! > Good grief! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey > [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them know that you know your rights. > > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >> Thanks >> Bridget >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >> o.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Fri Nov 22 15:02:12 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:02:12 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> References: , <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com>, <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah! She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's changing. Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is probable, they'll give her what she needs! Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," they'll do what's right by her! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [justin.williams2 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Where should she take it? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but why not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue lets sue o yeah lawsuit!" On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Bridget! > Good grief! > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris Danielson, and get the NFB involved! > Can anyone say lawsuit? > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, but it looks like you have! > Good grief! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey > [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them know that you know your rights. > > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >> Thanks >> Bridget >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >> o.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From ALewis at nfb.org Fri Nov 22 15:28:20 2013 From: ALewis at nfb.org (Lewis, Anil) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:28:20 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB of North Carolina News story on Fair Wages Message-ID: <157c5329c8d1492aa9c74f232dff5369@BY2PR07MB518.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Federation: I wanted to share the following news story about our Fair Wage efforts in North Carolina. I think you will all be pleased at the progress we are making in getting our message heard. http://on.wxii.com/17PUOWT Congratulations to Gary Ray and the members of the National Federation of the Blind of North Carolina for their role in the production of such a tremendous public awareness piece. There is also great footage of Ron Brown talking about subminimum wages while serving as the national representative for the NFB of NC state convention. (You never know when they are watching. :)) Our advocacy is having an impact. Let's keep applying the pressure. Sincerely, Anil Mr. Anil Lewis, M.P.A. Director of Advocacy and Policy "Eliminating Subminimum Wages for People with Disabilities" http://www.nfb.org/fairwages NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 (410) 659-9314 ext. 2374 (Voice) (410) 685-5653 (FAX) Email: alewis at nfb.org Web: www.nfb.org twitter: @anillife Take the stress out of this year's holiday shopping with NFB's Bid for Equality national online auction: Black Friday, Nov. 29, to Giving Tuesday, Dec. 3. View our must-have donations and register to make your Bid for Equality. The future is in your bid! From sgermano at asu.edu Fri Nov 22 16:19:56 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 09:19:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not want to do the legal channel. I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could help provide braille and the other things you need? I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of every diagram in the book. Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be necessary. Suzanne On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Yeah! > She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's > changing. > Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is > probable, they'll give her what she needs! > Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," > they'll do what's right by her! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ > justin.williams2 at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM > To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing > list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > Where should she take it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, > Tyler > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps > straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but > why > not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue lets > sue o yeah lawsuit!" > On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Bridget! > > Good grief! > > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris > Danielson, and get the NFB involved! > > Can anyone say lawsuit? > > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, > but it looks like you have! > > Good grief! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey > > [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > > > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS > and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and > most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to > work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of > departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department > chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that > had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue > or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word > "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them > know that you know your rights. > > > > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! > > > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > > (336) 988-6375 > > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > > > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker > wrote: > >> > >> Hi everyone, > >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it > helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a > TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. > >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At > least that's how the semester starts. > >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are > not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or > focus on one disability and not the other? > >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating > for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. > >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along > with > DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. > I > sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they > don't care. > >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. > The > professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see > and > can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail > for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter > grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read > Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't > think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to > the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the > part > there is already documentation about my disability at DS. > >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a > challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The > college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my > math > lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven > it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be > downgrading my technology for a book. > >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? > >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an > accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't > that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well > they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my > tests > with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. > >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? > >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and > I get nowhere. > >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. > >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. > >> Thanks > >> Bridget > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho > >> o.com > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > > a.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > > com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he > that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From louvins at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 17:55:35 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 11:55:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS office. Please keep us posted on what happens. On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official > appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not > want to do the legal channel. > > I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the > next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could > help provide braille and the other things you need? > > I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked > DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer > organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of > every diagram in the book. > > Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be > necessary. > > Suzanne > > > On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester > wrote: > >> Yeah! >> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >> changing. >> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >> they'll do what's right by her! >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >> >> Where should she take it? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >> Tyler >> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >> >> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >> why >> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >> lets >> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> > Bridget! >> > Good grief! >> > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >> > Can anyone say lawsuit? >> > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >> but it looks like you have! >> > Good grief! >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >> > [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >> > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >> > >> > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >> and >> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >> to >> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >> that >> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >> sue >> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >> them >> know that you know your rights. >> > >> > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >> > >> > Bobbi A. L. Pompey >> > (336) 988-6375 >> > pompey2010 at yahoo.com >> > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >> > >> >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >> a >> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >> >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >> least that's how the semester starts. >> >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >> >> are >> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >> focus on one disability and not the other? >> >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >> >> advocating >> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >> done. >> >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >> with >> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >> site. >> I >> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >> don't care. >> >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >> The >> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >> and >> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >> fail >> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >> letter >> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >> to >> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >> part >> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >> >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >> math >> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >> seven >> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >> downgrading my technology for a book. >> >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >> >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >> tests >> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >> >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >> >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >> >> and >> I get nowhere. >> >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >> >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >> >> Thanks >> >> Bridget >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >> >> o.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >> > a.edu >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> > com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >> that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 18:30:17 2013 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 13:30:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... In-Reply-To: <484D4C7396B74986B4E618C4BC946813@OwnerPC> References: <484D4C7396B74986B4E618C4BC946813@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Everyone: Thanks for the responses. If I were to work at one of these places, how do I get them to get me the talking cash register? Is it something they would have to purchase? Does it cost a lot of money? How have the blind teenagers who ran the register in fast food places convinced the employer to make the register accessible to them or purchased the talking register for them? I've got to call about the pretzel place. The ad was in the classified section, and that edition of my paper is no longer on Newsline. I looked under the classifieds yesterday and saw nothing about the pretzel place. They do keep having an ad saying the new Panerra Bread is hiring for "all positions." so I may have better luck with Panerra. But, even at Panerra if there were a way I could run the cash register that would be great. I'll give a few more details about my situation. I have had about two years of college. It is very hard to motivate me. I either have to have someone pushing me or if I am just left on my own I will become kind of depressed, miserable, and do nothing. I graduated from LCB last January and things didn't happen after I graduated the way they were supposed to. At LCB I was pushed and held accountable so I thrived there but being back here I've really really struggled to find what I want to do. So, I have applied back to school, and I figured I'd try to find a job and if I get the job I'll do that for a while and if nobody hires me or I can't find anything I'll go back to school to try to take a class or two. I am very hesitant to volunteer because I already "volunteer" and write sports articles for a local radio station's website. I am 26 years old and have never been paid and I'd just like to get a job to show myself I can really work and can be paid for something and to boost my confidence and self-esteem. That's another thing. I really and I mean really struggle with negativity, and having a very very low self-esteem and lack confidence in myself. I am good with computers and using the phone. I have basic word, powerpoint, and excel skills. If I see a customer service job I'll apply for it but the only company around here that I know of that does customer service is Teletech and that's a call center for Bank of America customers and I know for a fact that'd be hard because you have to help the callers by looking at their financial and bank info and that doesn't sound interesting to me. I also know for a fact I'd have to have a good braille display (which I don't have) in order to talk to the caller and simultaneously look up their financial/bank info. Thanks, Kerri On 11/21/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Suzanne, > I think she already went to school. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Suzanne Germano > Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:10 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Some Job Questions... > > In my opinion, not knowing your financial state, going to school would be a > better first place to turn your life around. Unskilled jobs are the most > visual and although many can probably be done they will be a lot harder to > make accessible than skilled/professional job. School can mean just a > training program, certificate, degree...You would probably be able to get > financial aid and or rehab to cover it. > > I personally feel that there is more discrimination in entry level jobs vs > skilled positions. > > just my 2 cents > > good luck > > > On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > >> Hi Everyone: >> >> I am considering applying for some jobs and had a few questions. >> Antians Pretzels (a pretzel place in the mall) is looking for "crew >> members." I have been told this means someone to make the pretzels and >> serve them to the customers, and someone to likely run the register >> and take the pretzel orders. >> There is a restaurant called Panara Bread (a popular sandwich chain) >> opening soon in my area and they are hiring for all positions. >> I am considering applying at these places. >> Is there any way a blind person can run a cash register? >> Is there actually anything I could do at these places as a blind >> person or will they immediately look at my blindness and turn me away? >> I won't go into full details on a listserve, but I am trying to turn >> my life around and one of the ways I thought I could do this was to >> find a simple job that would give me confidence, something to do, and >> to show me that I can in fact work. >> I'll admit, this is my first time applying for a job. If I apply, and >> they ask me to come in for an interview, and they say something like >> "So, what can you do?" if I'm not sure myself what I can do how do I >> respond? >> In the past I've just made the excuse that because of my blindness >> there is nothing I could do when looking for jobs and just given up >> but if I want to turn things around I have to do something and >> applying for jobs is one of the things I can think of to do. >> Thanks, >> Kerri >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com > From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 19:09:21 2013 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 14:09:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Minh and all, While SPSS was completely inaccessible a few years ago, this is no longer true - I have been using it for the past five years on a regular basis and can do almost everything independently. Mary is right that the accessibility set-up procedure can be a bit cumbersome, but this has gotten significantly better since version 21. The software license does cost quite a bit of money though (as a graduate student, I just paid $95 for a one-year license), so if you are only going to need the software for this one class then it might not be a worthwhile investment. I'm a big fan of Excel, but based on my experience it will most likely not be sufficient for a stats class you would take for your sociology major. Arielle sent around a link to a free, accessible stats calculator a little while ago on this list, which is supposed to be quite useful and might be something worth looking into (if you search the archives of this list for "SPSS" the thread should come up). If you do end up tackling SPSS and have any specific questions, please feel free to contact me off-list - I would be happy to share the work-arounds and tips I have learned with you. It might be nice to enlist assistance from a reader when you are getting acquainted with the software, but once you figure out the basics you probably won't need much sighted help (except for when you are creating charts and graphs, of course). Hope this helps and best of luck! Katie On 11/22/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Minh and all, > SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved > program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must > install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, > it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before > the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal > when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS > isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might > want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat > analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked > everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think > you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while > you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the > information that is being shown on screen. > Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. > Thanks. > Mary > > On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Hi Minh, >> Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this >> list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've >> read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is >> SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest >> version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical >> program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel >> is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit >> down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what you >> can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm slightly >> biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. >> Hope this Helps, >> Patrick >> >> On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >>> Hi Minh and Emily, >>> >>> While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I absolutely >>> had >>> to, I've done some research on the accessibility of SPSS for some >>> friends. >>> As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible with >>> JAWS >>> or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot of >>> difficulties >>> to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who either use it on the >>> job >>> or in school. There are some other alternatives which are not nearly as >>> good or as reputable as SPSS (because let's face it, sometimes these >>> programs are used more for their reputation than for their actual >>> productivity and feasibility), but they might be better alternatives for >>> you >>> if your professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >>> It >>> is important that your professor understands that you really cannot use >>> SPSS >>> and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an alternative >>> software >>> which would allow you to do the same work and with the same level of >>> expectations as all of the other students. If you like, I can do some >>> further research on software that would work for you and we can talk >>> further >>> off-list. In the mean time, I think Emily's Excell solution is probably >>> your best bet. If you're having difficulties with your professor, see >>> if >>> you can't persuade your school's disability services people to help you. >>> I >>> hope this is helpful. >>> >>> Take Care, >>> Ryan >>> >>> >>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Minh. >>>> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. Fortunately >>>> for >>>> me, our class is business-based, and we only use Excel, which works >>>> 99.9237% >>>> of the time. I know your professor has already designated software >>>> package, >>>> but if you're having real trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform >>>> most >>>> statistical functions, and most Stats professors know their way around >>>> Excel. >>>> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy to >>>> talk >>>> some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert by any means, >>>> but >>>> I've got a nice system down after nearly two semesters, and it's a >>>> fascinating subject. >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> Emily >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>>> software >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my >>>> sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main >>>> component of the course involves doing work with the StatisticalPackage >>>> for >>>> the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you have >>>> had >>>> experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or not? >>>> I'm >>>> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform >>>> any >>>> of >>>> the assignments. >>>> Thanks for any help you can give. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their >>>> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.n >>>> et >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > — > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 19:19:31 2013 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 14:19:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Survey Platforms In-Reply-To: <01e801cee716$a30c4470$e924cd50$@gmail.com> References: <01e801cee716$a30c4470$e924cd50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Joe, Survey Monkey is accessible and quite powerful, but I believe that it charges an annual subscription fee if you want to create a survey with more than 10 questions. Other than that, I'm afraid that I don't have any good solutions to suggest - My school uses Qualtrics, but it is pretty much completely inaccessible so I have to work with a research assistant while constructing surveys. Katie On 11/21/13, Joe wrote: > Hello, > > > > Can anyone, especially those graduate students who run surveys for their > studies, recommend a good survey tool accessible to screen readers?The tool > should allow for as many questions as I need, and if possible, I'd like > questions to automatically adjust according to predefined criteria. For > example, if X response, then Y Question will populate the next screen. If > you have any ideas, I'd love your assistance at your earliest convenience. > Thanks much in advance. > > > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Fri Nov 22 20:16:38 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:16:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. Bridget Sent from my iPad > On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: > > Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult > using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that > were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I > didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math > professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for > my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges > testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes > I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can > you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out > some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take > sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of > the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. > What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised > your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS > office. Please keep us posted on what happens. > >> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >> want to do the legal channel. >> >> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >> help provide braille and the other things you need? >> >> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >> every diagram in the book. >> >> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >> necessary. >> >> Suzanne >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >> wrote: >> >>> Yeah! >>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>> changing. >>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>> they'll do what's right by her! >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>> list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>> >>> Where should she take it? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>> Tyler >>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>> >>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>> why >>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>> lets >>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> Bridget! >>>> Good grief! >>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>> but it looks like you have! >>>> Good grief! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>> >>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>> and >>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>> to >>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>> that >>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>> sue >>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>> them >>> know that you know your rights. >>>> >>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>> >>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>> >>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>> >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>> a >>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>> are >>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>> advocating >>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>> done. >>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>> with >>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>> site. >>> I >>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>> don't care. >>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>> The >>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>> and >>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>> fail >>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>> letter >>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>> to >>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>> part >>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>> math >>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>> seven >>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>> tests >>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>> and >>> I get nowhere. >>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>> Thanks >>>>> Bridget >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>> o.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>> a.edu >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>> com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Take care, >>> Ty >>> http://tds-solutions.net >>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>> that >>> dares not reason is a slave. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 20:43:42 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:43:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> Message-ID: <7F747825-92C3-4735-BB0D-61A3BD18BB4B@gmail.com> Bridget: Definitely should've followed this thread earlier..... I do have cp myself and am in a wheelchair as a result. I know it can be frustrating to have multiple disabilities... Fight math lab and everything else for that matter with all you got, it definitely isn't right that they're passing you off as they are, and it definitely isn't right that they want you to downgrade Jaws just for that. Frustrating here in MD is the fact they say I should use it when I know it's not accessible... Anyway I know it's frustrating but we're here to help, :) Thanks, Josh Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: > > Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. > > Bridget > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >> >> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >> >>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>> want to do the legal channel. >>> >>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>> >>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>> every diagram in the book. >>> >>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>> necessary. >>> >>> Suzanne >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah! >>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>> changing. >>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>> >>>> Where should she take it? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>> Tyler >>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>> >>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>> why >>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>> lets >>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> Bridget! >>>>> Good grief! >>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>> Good grief! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>> and >>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>> to >>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>> that >>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>> sue >>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>> them >>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>> >>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>> >>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>> a >>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>> are >>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>> advocating >>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>> done. >>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>> with >>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>> site. >>>> I >>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>> don't care. >>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>> The >>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>> and >>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>> fail >>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>> letter >>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>> to >>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>> part >>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>> math >>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>> seven >>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>> tests >>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>> and >>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> Bridget >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>> a.edu >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that >>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From louvins at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 21:44:14 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:44:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <7F747825-92C3-4735-BB0D-61A3BD18BB4B@gmail.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <7F747825-92C3-4735-BB0D-61A3BD18BB4B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bridget. This is Joshu0a Hendrickson again. I ccan't believe that your college would think that downgrading jaws would make it accessible with mathlab if the latest version won't work. Mathlab uses adobe flash to show the problems on the screen, and no version of jaws is going to work with that. Hope you can remind your school of this fact. You could even call freedom scientific, and have your school talk to a techsupport person if they don't believe you. Although, personally, I'm a little skeptical of FS Techsupport because one time at my school, my jaws wasn't working correctly, and when I talked to sechsupport at FS. they couldn't help me, and my schools IT person fixed the problem. Hope you get your problems quickly resolved. On 11/22/13, Josh Gregory wrote: > Bridget: > > Definitely should've followed this thread earlier..... > I do have cp myself and am in a wheelchair as a result. I know it can be > frustrating to have multiple disabilities... > Fight math lab and everything else for that matter with all you got, it > definitely isn't right that they're passing you off as they are, and it > definitely isn't right that they want you to downgrade Jaws just for that. > Frustrating here in MD is the fact they say I should use it when I know it's > not accessible... > Anyway I know it's frustrating but we're here to help, :) > Thanks, > Josh > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Bridget Walker >> wrote: >> >> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks >> this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll >> keep you posted. >> >> Bridget >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>> >>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did >>>> not >>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>> >>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do >>>> the >>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that >>>> could >>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>> >>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I >>>> asked >>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my >>>> computer >>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions >>>> of >>>> every diagram in the book. >>>> >>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may >>>> be >>>> necessary. >>>> >>>> Suzanne >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah! >>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>> changing. >>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams >>>>> [ >>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students >>>>> mailing >>>>> list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Littlefield, >>>>> Tyler >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone >>>>> jumps >>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, >>>>> but >>>>> why >>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>> lets >>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your >>>>>> options, >>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with >>>>>> DS >>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, >>>>> rude, >>>>> and >>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper >>>>> time >>>>> to >>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the >>>>> department >>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>> that >>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not >>>>> saying >>>>> sue >>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>> them >>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this >>>>>> helps! >>>>>> >>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due >>>>> to >>>>> a >>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. >>>>>>> At >>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>> are >>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together >>>>> or >>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>> advocating >>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>> done. >>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>> with >>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>> site. >>>>> I >>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but >>>>> they >>>>> don't care. >>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and >>>>>>> tactile. >>>>> The >>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't >>>>> see >>>>> and >>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>> fail >>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>> letter >>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I >>>>> don't >>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye >>>>> report >>>>> to >>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in >>>>> the >>>>> part >>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. >>>>> The >>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so >>>>> my >>>>> math >>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>> seven >>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did >>>>> well >>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>> tests >>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>> and >>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>> o.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>> a.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Ty >>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >>>>> he >>>>> that >>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Fri Nov 22 22:25:53 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 15:25:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> Message-ID: <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> Bridget, I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone going through what you've described without support, and I would love to share my experience and help you in any way I can. Best, Jamie Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: > > Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. > > Bridget > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >> >> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >> >>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>> want to do the legal channel. >>> >>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>> >>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>> every diagram in the book. >>> >>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>> necessary. >>> >>> Suzanne >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah! >>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>> changing. >>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>> >>>> Where should she take it? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>> Tyler >>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>> >>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>> why >>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>> lets >>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> Bridget! >>>>> Good grief! >>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>> Good grief! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>> and >>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>> to >>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>> that >>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>> sue >>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>> them >>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>> >>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>> >>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>> a >>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>> are >>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>> advocating >>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>> done. >>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>> with >>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>> site. >>>> I >>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>> don't care. >>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>> The >>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>> and >>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>> fail >>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>> letter >>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>> to >>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>> part >>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>> math >>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>> seven >>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>> tests >>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>> and >>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> Bridget >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>> a.edu >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that >>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 00:53:18 2013 From: twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com (Tamika Williams) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:53:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello Bridget, I also wish I would have followed this thread sooner. It seem that everyone has given you great advice so I will only add to one that sticks out to me the most. I had a similar situation with several MyLab programs and attended the Pearson Higher Education seminar at this past convention. There they were giving us information on how they were making progress on making their products accessible. I collected contact information from a couple of those people which I will provide below. Furthermore, I have contacted them since the convention and they have been very helpful. In reference to the actual book, the advice they gave me was to go to your course homepage, go to course tools, and there will be a link to the html format of the book which was very accessible to me. However, I dropped this class early on because I felt that I needed traditional course instead of a self-taught online course, so I did not get around to seeing if the actual assignments were accessible but the Pearson representative did say that it would be. In addition, I also had her to join this list serve because she needed a place where they could ask questions about their accessibility ideas and need some students to test the ideas out at times. I knew that we wouldn't mind this at all being that we are faced with textbook accessibility issues constantly. So contact her on this list and call her and see if she could help you at all. The information is as follows: Rep name: Hei-jung Kim Phone: 617-848-6104 E-mail: hei-jung.kim at pearson.com On 11/22/13, Jamie Principato wrote: > Bridget, > > I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this > situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a > very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually > did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the > Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since > left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and > will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone > going through what you've described without support, and I would love to > share my experience and help you in any way I can. > > Best, > > Jamie > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker >> wrote: >> >> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks >> this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll >> keep you posted. >> >> Bridget >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>> >>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did >>>> not >>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>> >>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do >>>> the >>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that >>>> could >>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>> >>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I >>>> asked >>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my >>>> computer >>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions >>>> of >>>> every diagram in the book. >>>> >>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may >>>> be >>>> necessary. >>>> >>>> Suzanne >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah! >>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>> changing. >>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams >>>>> [ >>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students >>>>> mailing >>>>> list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>> Littlefield, >>>>> Tyler >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone >>>>> jumps >>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, >>>>> but >>>>> why >>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>> lets >>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your >>>>>> options, >>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with >>>>>> DS >>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, >>>>> rude, >>>>> and >>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper >>>>> time >>>>> to >>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the >>>>> department >>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>> that >>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not >>>>> saying >>>>> sue >>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>> them >>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this >>>>>> helps! >>>>>> >>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due >>>>> to >>>>> a >>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. >>>>>>> At >>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>> are >>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together >>>>> or >>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>> advocating >>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>> done. >>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>> with >>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>> site. >>>>> I >>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but >>>>> they >>>>> don't care. >>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and >>>>>>> tactile. >>>>> The >>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't >>>>> see >>>>> and >>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>> fail >>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>> letter >>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I >>>>> don't >>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye >>>>> report >>>>> to >>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in >>>>> the >>>>> part >>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. >>>>> The >>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so >>>>> my >>>>> math >>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>> seven >>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did >>>>> well >>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>> tests >>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>> and >>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>> o.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>> a.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Ty >>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >>>>> he >>>>> that >>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars%40gmail.com > From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 00:57:03 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 19:57:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Bridget, this is Helga. Sorry to hear all these situations that you're going through in your college. I actually can't believe that your professors are not coperating in giving you accommodations; I think that's not fair. I actually experience the same things that you are going through, not really with my professors, but with the Dissability office. They were not providing me accomodations that I needed for my classes, like having stuff in Braille. So I actually talked to the Vice President of my college, and told him what was happening regarding the DSS department, and he did something about it. For instance, I'm taking a Pre-Calculus math class, and Literature class this semester, and for my math class I wanted a Braille Pre-Calculus book, and he actually bought the book for me, and I'm using it a lot this semester. Actually this math book cost 3500 dollars. And I actually face many issues with the DSS department still. In fact, just to let you know, my professors coperate with me, for instance my math professor makes me take her test in her office, and she scribes for me, and she is actually the head chair of the math department at my college. Also, I know that my math lab site is not accessible with with JAWS, for that my mom help me read the site. By the way, have you tried to talk to the Vice President regarding these situations? Also, What is the name of your college, and what kind of math class are you taking this semester, where you need to use my math lab site? Just curious. If you want you can contact me off list, and then I can tell you in more detail the situations that I faced in my college, and which I'm still are right now! My email address is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thanks for listening to me, and God bless!! ;) Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Jamie Principato" wrote: > > Bridget, > > I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone going through what you've described without support, and I would love to share my experience and help you in any way I can. > > Best, > > Jamie > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: >> >> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. >> >> Bridget >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>> >>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>> >>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>> >>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>>> every diagram in the book. >>>> >>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>>> necessary. >>>> >>>> Suzanne >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah! >>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>> changing. >>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>> list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>>> Tyler >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>>> why >>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>> lets >>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>>> and >>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>>> to >>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>> that >>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>>> sue >>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>> them >>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>>> >>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>>> a >>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>> are >>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>> advocating >>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>> done. >>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>> with >>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>> site. >>>>> I >>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>>> don't care. >>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>>> The >>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>>> and >>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>> fail >>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>> letter >>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>>> to >>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>>> part >>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>>> math >>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>> seven >>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>> tests >>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>> and >>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>> o.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>> a.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Ty >>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>>> that >>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 01:00:08 2013 From: twilliams.jaguars at gmail.com (Tamika Williams) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 19:00:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bridget, Just to clear a little something up. The requirements given to me by the MyMathLab site to make the accessibility issue better with the MyMathLab was not to go back on Jaws but to go back to I.E. 9 and to download Math Player produced by Design Scientific. However, I was using I.E. 10 and had not experienced any issues using that version of I.E. HTH, Tamika Williams On 11/22/13, Tamika Williams wrote: > Hello Bridget, > > I also wish I would have followed this thread sooner. It seem that > everyone has given you great advice so I will only add to one that > sticks out to me the most. I had a similar situation with several > MyLab programs and attended the Pearson Higher Education seminar at > this past convention. There they were giving us information on how > they were making progress on making their products accessible. I > collected contact information from a couple of those people which I > will provide below. Furthermore, I have contacted them since the > convention and they have been very helpful. In reference to the actual > book, the advice they gave me was to go to your course homepage, go to > course tools, and there will be a link to the html format of the book > which was very accessible to me. However, I dropped this class early > on because I felt that I needed traditional course instead of a > self-taught online course, so I did not get around to seeing if the > actual assignments were accessible but the Pearson representative did > say that it would be. In addition, I also had her to join this list > serve because she needed a place where they could ask questions about > their accessibility ideas and need some students to test the ideas out > at times. I knew that we wouldn't mind this at all being that we are > faced with textbook accessibility issues constantly. So contact her > on this list and call her and see if she could help you at all. The > information is as follows: > > Rep name: Hei-jung Kim > Phone: 617-848-6104 > E-mail: hei-jung.kim at pearson.com > > On 11/22/13, Jamie Principato wrote: >> Bridget, >> >> I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this >> situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a >> very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and >> eventually >> did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the >> Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've >> since >> left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and >> will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see >> anyone >> going through what you've described without support, and I would love to >> share my experience and help you in any way I can. >> >> Best, >> >> Jamie >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker >>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who >>> thinks >>> this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. >>> I'll >>> keep you posted. >>> >>> Bridget >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>>> >>>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did >>>>> not >>>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>>> >>>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do >>>>> the >>>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that >>>>> could >>>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>>> >>>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I >>>>> asked >>>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my >>>>> computer >>>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile >>>>> versions >>>>> of >>>>> every diagram in the book. >>>>> >>>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action >>>>> may >>>>> be >>>>> necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Suzanne >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yeah! >>>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>>> changing. >>>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams >>>>>> [ >>>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students >>>>>> mailing >>>>>> list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> Littlefield, >>>>>> Tyler >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone >>>>>> jumps >>>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, >>>>>> but >>>>>> why >>>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>>> lets >>>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact >>>>>>> Chris >>>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your >>>>>>> options, >>>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with >>>>>>> DS >>>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, >>>>>> rude, >>>>>> and >>>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper >>>>>> time >>>>>> to >>>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the >>>>>> department >>>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document >>>>>> everything >>>>>> that >>>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not >>>>>> saying >>>>>> sue >>>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>>> them >>>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this >>>>>>> helps! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First >>>>>>>> it >>>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due >>>>>> to >>>>>> a >>>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. >>>>>>>> At >>>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> are >>>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together >>>>>> or >>>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>>> advocating >>>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>>> done. >>>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her >>>>>>>> along >>>>>> with >>>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>>> site. >>>>>> I >>>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but >>>>>> they >>>>>> don't care. >>>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and >>>>>>>> tactile. >>>>>> The >>>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't >>>>>> see >>>>>> and >>>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a >>>>>> pass >>>>>> fail >>>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>>> letter >>>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I >>>>>> read >>>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I >>>>>> don't >>>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye >>>>>> report >>>>>> to >>>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in >>>>>> the >>>>>> part >>>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. >>>>>> The >>>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so >>>>>> my >>>>>> math >>>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>>> seven >>>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I >>>>>> can't >>>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did >>>>>> well >>>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take >>>>>> my >>>>>> tests >>>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common >>>>>>>> ground >>>>>>>> and >>>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>>> a.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Take care, >>>>>> Ty >>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >>>>>> he >>>>>> that >>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/twilliams.jaguars%40gmail.com >> > From sgermano at asu.edu Sat Nov 23 01:05:24 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 18:05:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Another thing about MyMathLab is that only certain books list that they are accessible. For example, my Calculus book is not listed as accessible but lukily I am able to use magnification software with it. From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sat Nov 23 01:15:47 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:15:47 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <3ba98d59d6a44f3c9cd4f1a7566de218@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Helga, this is awesome! Your professor actually bought the Braille book for you? Send him to my college! They wouldn't dare do something like that for me. Math is one thing that you really need Braille for. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 6:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Hi Bridget, this is Helga. Sorry to hear all these situations that you're going through in your college. I actually can't believe that your professors are not coperating in giving you accommodations; I think that's not fair. I actually experience the same things that you are going through, not really with my professors, but with the Dissability office. They were not providing me accomodations that I needed for my classes, like having stuff in Braille. So I actually talked to the Vice President of my college, and told him what was happening regarding the DSS department, and he did something about it. For instance, I'm taking a Pre-Calculus math class, and Literature class this semester, and for my math class I wanted a Braille Pre-Calculus book, and he actually bought the book for me, and I'm using it a lot this semester. Actually this math book cost 3500 dollars. And I actually face many issues with the DSS department still. In fact, just to let you know, my professors coperate with me, for instance my math professor makes me take her test in her office, and she scribes for me, and she is actually the head chair of the math department at my college. Also, I know that my math lab site is not accessible with with JAWS, for that my mom help me read the site. By the way, have you tried to talk to the Vice President regarding these situations? Also, What is the name of your college, and what kind of math class are you taking this semester, where you need to use my math lab site? Just curious. If you want you can contact me off list, and then I can tell you in more detail the situations that I faced in my college, and which I'm still are right now! My email address is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thanks for listening to me, and God bless!! ;) Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Jamie Principato" wrote: > > Bridget, > > I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone going through what you've described without support, and I would love to share my experience and help you in any way I can. > > Best, > > Jamie > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: >> >> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. >> >> Bridget >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>> >>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>> >>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>> >>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>>> every diagram in the book. >>>> >>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>>> necessary. >>>> >>>> Suzanne >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah! >>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>> changing. >>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>> list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>>> Tyler >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>>> why >>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>> lets >>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>>> and >>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>>> to >>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>> that >>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>>> sue >>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>> them >>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>>> >>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>>> a >>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>> are >>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>> advocating >>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>> done. >>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>> with >>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>> site. >>>>> I >>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>>> don't care. >>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>>> The >>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>>> and >>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>> fail >>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>> letter >>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>>> to >>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>>> part >>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>>> math >>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>> seven >>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>> tests >>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>> and >>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>> o.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>> a.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Ty >>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>>> that >>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sat Nov 23 01:42:19 2013 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 19:42:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Beth, True, there are higher risk of certain complications for both mother and child after 30, but again, if you're healthy and are dedicated to having a healthy pregnancy, you have every chance of coming through the experience just fine. While pregnant, I ate healthier than I ever have, and I'm a pretty healthy eater already. Everything organic, no junk food, healthy portions, etc. I also exercised as much as I could. And oh, drank lots of water. I drank about 120 ounces a day. As a diabetic, I was testing blood sugars 15 times a day and in constant contact with my doctor so changes to my diet and insulin rates could be adjusted. Nothing guarantees you a perfect pregnancy or labor and delivery, but if you do your part, you have better chances in the end. The healthier you are before becoming pregnant is very helpful too. Stop focusing so much on the negative stuff. Seriously, it's amazing how your perspective will change the more positive you think. And right before I found out I was pregnant, my husband and I, who is also blind, were in the beginning phases of adoption. Other blind people have successfully adopted. So this is a viable option if you decide to adopt. Bridgit Message: 11 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:14:41 -0700 From: Beth Taurasi To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Families misunderstanding real world Message-ID: <528E5BA1.6080508 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hey Bridget, you're right. I truly love Blake, and there's nothing stopping me from loving him right now. But we won't be marrying until he has the financial stability in place so he can take care of his family. After all, I think being a stay at home mom would not be so bad. When the kids go to school and tai kwon doh, we want them to be safe, then I'll consider both learning the martial art of tai kwon doh and perhaps working from home and in an office. This way, we can expand on our income as a family. That's waht I'm thinking. I just don't want Blake to be all freaked out over an unhealthy child, no matter how hard I try to take care of my body. We know that certain prenatal tests are out for now because of the risk of docs saying we need to abort and stuff, and about 80% of down's Syndrome cases in fetuses are now being aborted because people are stupid and don't know much about Down's. They haven't read "Count Us In", written by two Down's Syndrome men who grew up with the disorder. Their moms were told to put the boys away, but like good parents should, both moms kept the boys and they became friends. IF Blake and I end up with a child who has Down's, we know they can go far even with the disorder. So what? AT least the product will be there, and a family can be established, but adoption might be another option if I pass fifty by the time we're ready to actually make a commitment. What I'm worried about though with adoption is the real world thing that says blind parents can't adopt. I don't know how many blind Colorado people have adopted kids and how they went about doing it, but because of mental health complications, I don't know if adoption or even fostering is an option because nobody will give me good words. Beth From brafford at mind.net Sat Nov 23 01:57:08 2013 From: brafford at mind.net (Carolyn Brafford) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 17:57:08 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com><528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com><000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com><46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com><2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D494D745D68457B8DA947F9F836DDE7@CarolynPC> Hi Bridget, My daughter has a vision impairment, is a white cane user, and a Braille reader. Last summer she was able to successfully complete a college math course, but not without some accessibility issues along the way. I know she would tell you that trying to use JAWS to do math isn't the way to go and that Nemeth Code is necessary. With Nemeth she completed the class on time and ended up with an "A". Without if, I don't think she would have been able to complete the class in a timely manner, and certainly not with an "A". I agree with Helga that you are more likely to get assistance if you go higher up the chain of command. This semester my daughter had major accessibility issues (at a different college than we dealt with last summer). At her current college the Disability Office wasn't providing effective assistance, one professor's class was completely inaccessible, and academic life was a nightmare. After talking and writing emails didn't work, our strategy was to find who was the 504 Compliance Officer at her college. Then, we wrote a detailed letter. My daughter wrote the narrative part of her experience and I wrote the legal part. We clearly outlined how they were violating Section 504 and stated that if the issues were not addressed within x number of days we would file a formal complaint. (Not a lawsuit, but a complaint). This got attention. While everything isn't perfect, it is MUCH better. Had we not gotten things turned around, we would have filed a formal complaint. Had that not worked, we would have filed a lawsuit. Fortunately, we didn't have to do more than spend 16 hours writing a very detailed, highly targeted, letter. If you want more information, and possibly assistance in writing a letter, contact me off-list: brafford at mind.net. Take care and all the best, Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 4:57 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Hi Bridget, this is Helga. Sorry to hear all these situations that you're going through in your college. I actually can't believe that your professors are not coperating in giving you accommodations; I think that's not fair. I actually experience the same things that you are going through, not really with my professors, but with the Dissability office. They were not providing me accomodations that I needed for my classes, like having stuff in Braille. So I actually talked to the Vice President of my college, and told him what was happening regarding the DSS department, and he did something about it. For instance, I'm taking a Pre-Calculus math class, and Literature class this semester, and for my math class I wanted a Braille Pre-Calculus book, and he actually bought the book for me, and I'm using it a lot this semester. Actually this math book cost 3500 dollars. And I actually face many issues with the DSS department still. In fact, just to let you know, my professors coper ate with me, for instance my math professor makes me take her test in her office, and she scribes for me, and she is actually the head chair of the math department at my college. Also, I know that my math lab site is not accessible with with JAWS, for that my mom help me read the site. By the way, have you tried to talk to the Vice President regarding these situations? Also, What is the name of your college, and what kind of math class are you taking this semester, where you need to use my math lab site? Just curious. If you want you can contact me off list, and then I can tell you in more detail the situations that I faced in my college, and which I'm still are right now! My email address is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thanks for listening to me, and God bless!! ;) Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Jamie Principato" wrote: > > Bridget, > > I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone going through what you've described without support, and I would love to share my experience and help you in any way I can. > > Best, > > Jamie > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: >> >> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. >> >> Bridget >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>> >>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>> >>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>> >>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>>> every diagram in the book. >>>> >>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>>> necessary. >>>> >>>> Suzanne >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yeah! >>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>> changing. >>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>> list' >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>>> Tyler >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>>> why >>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>> lets >>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>>> and >>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>>> to >>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>> that >>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>>> sue >>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>> them >>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>>> >>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>>> a >>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>> are >>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>> advocating >>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>> done. >>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>> with >>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>> site. >>>>> I >>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>>> don't care. >>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>>> The >>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>>> and >>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>> fail >>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>> letter >>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>>> to >>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>>> part >>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>>> math >>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>> seven >>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>> tests >>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>> and >>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>> o.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>> a.edu >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>> com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Ty >>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>>> that >>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.o nmicrosoft.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.c om >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmai l.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brafford%40mind.net From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Sat Nov 23 02:01:25 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:01:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <3ba98d59d6a44f3c9cd4f1a7566de218@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> <3ba98d59d6a44f3c9cd4f1a7566de218@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Message-ID: <6423283D-5B6B-45AC-B27F-A7A567F626FC@aol.com> I know right. Pearson told me to downgrade internet explorer and jaws. They said they used math ml which was designed for jaws 12 and earlier. Ok let's get real here we are on jaws what 15. So I think some updates are necessary. The overall Pearson page was ok with jaws until I got in to my account on my math lab. I couldn't find my course not by bringing up a links list or using the jaws find feature. I don't know they told me if I am using ie like 10 or something I need to downgrade. Not for nothing I just got a new laptop I am not downgrading anything. The IT department at my college set up a laptop which should make jaws and math ml compatible for my math lab but no one tested it. I have to be real I do t have the time to play with different versions to see what works. Thanks Bridget Sent from my iPad > On Nov 22, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Helga, this is awesome! > Your professor actually bought the Braille book for you? > Send him to my college! > They wouldn't dare do something like that for me. > Math is one thing that you really need Braille for. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > Hi Bridget, this is Helga. Sorry to hear all these situations that you're going through in your college. I actually can't believe that your professors are not coperating in giving you accommodations; I think that's not fair. I actually experience the same things that you are going through, not really with my professors, but with the Dissability office. They were not providing me accomodations that I needed for my classes, like having stuff in Braille. So I actually talked to the Vice President of my college, and told him what was happening regarding the DSS department, and he did something about it. For instance, I'm taking a Pre-Calculus math class, and Literature class this semester, and for my math class I wanted a Braille Pre-Calculus book, and he actually bought the book for me, and I'm using it a lot this semester. Actually this math book cost 3500 dollars. And I actually face many issues with the DSS department still. In fact, just to let you know, my professors coper > ate with me, for instance my math professor makes me take her test in her office, and she scribes for me, and she is actually the head chair of the math department at my college. Also, I know that my math lab site is not accessible with with JAWS, for that my mom help me read the site. By the way, have you tried to talk to the Vice President regarding these situations? Also, What is the name of your college, and what kind of math class are you taking this semester, where you need to use my math lab site? Just curious. If you want you can contact me off list, and then I can tell you in more detail the situations that I faced in my college, and which I'm still are right now! My email address is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thanks for listening to me, and God bless!! ;) > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Jamie Principato" wrote: >> >> Bridget, >> >> I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone going through what you've described without support, and I would love to share my experience and help you in any way I can. >> >> Best, >> >> Jamie >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: >>> >>> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. >>> >>> Bridget >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>>> >>>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>>> >>>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>>> >>>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>>>> every diagram in the book. >>>>> >>>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>>>> necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Suzanne >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yeah! >>>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>>> changing. >>>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>>> list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>>>> Tyler >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>>>> why >>>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>>> lets >>>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>>>> and >>>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>>>> to >>>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>>> that >>>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>>>> sue >>>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>>> them >>>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>>>> a >>>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>>> are >>>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>>> advocating >>>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>>> done. >>>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>>> with >>>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>>> site. >>>>>> I >>>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>>>> don't care. >>>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>>>> The >>>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>>>> and >>>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>>> fail >>>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>>> letter >>>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>>>> to >>>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>>>> part >>>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>>>> math >>>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>>> seven >>>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>>> tests >>>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>>> and >>>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>>> a.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Take care, >>>>>> Ty >>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>>>> that >>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sat Nov 23 02:11:52 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 02:11:52 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <6423283D-5B6B-45AC-B27F-A7A567F626FC@aol.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> <3ba98d59d6a44f3c9cd4f1a7566de218@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>, <6423283D-5B6B-45AC-B27F-A7A567F626FC@aol.com> Message-ID: Is there a way you could work independent study with the instructor? A one-on-one approach, with the professor may be the next option. Thanks, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bridget Walker [bridgetawalker13 at aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues I know right. Pearson told me to downgrade internet explorer and jaws. They said they used math ml which was designed for jaws 12 and earlier. Ok let's get real here we are on jaws what 15. So I think some updates are necessary. The overall Pearson page was ok with jaws until I got in to my account on my math lab. I couldn't find my course not by bringing up a links list or using the jaws find feature. I don't know they told me if I am using ie like 10 or something I need to downgrade. Not for nothing I just got a new laptop I am not downgrading anything. The IT department at my college set up a laptop which should make jaws and math ml compatible for my math lab but no one tested it. I have to be real I do t have the time to play with different versions to see what works. Thanks Bridget Sent from my iPad > On Nov 22, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Helga, this is awesome! > Your professor actually bought the Braille book for you? > Send him to my college! > They wouldn't dare do something like that for me. > Math is one thing that you really need Braille for. > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 6:57 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > Hi Bridget, this is Helga. Sorry to hear all these situations that you're going through in your college. I actually can't believe that your professors are not coperating in giving you accommodations; I think that's not fair. I actually experience the same things that you are going through, not really with my professors, but with the Dissability office. They were not providing me accomodations that I needed for my classes, like having stuff in Braille. So I actually talked to the Vice President of my college, and told him what was happening regarding the DSS department, and he did something about it. For instance, I'm taking a Pre-Calculus math class, and Literature class this semester, and for my math class I wanted a Braille Pre-Calculus book, and he actually bought the book for me, and I'm using it a lot this semester. Actually this math book cost 3500 dollars. And I actually face many issues with the DSS department still. In fact, just to let you know, my professors coper > ate with me, for instance my math professor makes me take her test in her office, and she scribes for me, and she is actually the head chair of the math department at my college. Also, I know that my math lab site is not accessible with with JAWS, for that my mom help me read the site. By the way, have you tried to talk to the Vice President regarding these situations? Also, What is the name of your college, and what kind of math class are you taking this semester, where you need to use my math lab site? Just curious. If you want you can contact me off list, and then I can tell you in more detail the situations that I faced in my college, and which I'm still are right now! My email address is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thanks for listening to me, and God bless!! ;) > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Jamie Principato" wrote: >> >> Bridget, >> >> I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone going through what you've described without support, and I would love to share my experience and help you in any way I can. >> >> Best, >> >> Jamie >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: >>> >>> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. >>> >>> Bridget >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>>> >>>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>>> >>>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>>> >>>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>>>> every diagram in the book. >>>>> >>>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>>>> necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Suzanne >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Yeah! >>>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>>> changing. >>>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>>> list' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>>>> Tyler >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>>>> why >>>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>>> lets >>>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>>>> and >>>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>>>> to >>>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>>> that >>>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>>>> sue >>>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>>> them >>>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>>>> a >>>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>>> are >>>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>>> advocating >>>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>>> done. >>>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>>> with >>>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>>> site. >>>>>> I >>>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>>>> don't care. >>>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>>>> The >>>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>>>> and >>>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>>> fail >>>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>>> letter >>>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>>>> to >>>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>>>> part >>>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>>>> math >>>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>>> seven >>>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>>> tests >>>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>>> and >>>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>>> a.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Take care, >>>>>> Ty >>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>>>> that >>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 02:19:30 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 21:19:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <6423283D-5B6B-45AC-B27F-A7A567F626FC@aol.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> <3ba98d59d6a44f3c9cd4f1a7566de218@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> <6423283D-5B6B-45AC-B27F-A7A567F626FC@aol.com> Message-ID: <598D9560-694C-4F4B-8BEB-6FC5E1808AC0@gmail.com> Sounds like a real pain in the you know what, if you have the facilities and the resources, see if you can get your book in braille. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2013, at 9:01 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: > > I know right. Pearson told me to downgrade internet explorer and jaws. They said they used math ml which was designed for jaws 12 and earlier. Ok let's get real here we are on jaws what 15. So I think some updates are necessary. The overall Pearson page was ok with jaws until I got in to my account on my math lab. I couldn't find my course not by bringing up a links list or using the jaws find feature. > I don't know they told me if I am using ie like 10 or something I need to downgrade. Not for nothing I just got a new laptop I am not downgrading anything. > The IT department at my college set up a laptop which should make jaws and math ml compatible for my math lab but no one tested it. I have to be real I do t have the time to play with different versions to see what works. > Thanks > Bridget > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> Helga, this is awesome! >> Your professor actually bought the Braille book for you? >> Send him to my college! >> They wouldn't dare do something like that for me. >> Math is one thing that you really need Braille for. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >> >> Hi Bridget, this is Helga. Sorry to hear all these situations that you're going through in your college. I actually can't believe that your professors are not coperating in giving you accommodations; I think that's not fair. I actually experience the same things that you are going through, not really with my professors, but with the Dissability office. They were not providing me accomodations that I needed for my classes, like having stuff in Braille. So I actually talked to the Vice President of my college, and told him what was happening regarding the DSS department, and he did something about it. For instance, I'm taking a Pre-Calculus math class, and Literature class this semester, and for my math class I wanted a Braille Pre-Calculus book, and he actually bought the book for me, and I'm using it a lot this semester. Actually this math book cost 3500 dollars. And I actually face many issues with the DSS department still. In fact, just to let you know, my professors coper >> ate with me, for instance my math professor makes me take her test in her office, and she scribes for me, and she is actually the head chair of the math department at my college. Also, I know that my math lab site is not accessible with with JAWS, for that my mom help me read the site. By the way, have you tried to talk to the Vice President regarding these situations? Also, What is the name of your college, and what kind of math class are you taking this semester, where you need to use my math lab site? Just curious. If you want you can contact me off list, and then I can tell you in more detail the situations that I faced in my college, and which I'm still are right now! My email address is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thanks for listening to me, and God bless!! ;) >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Jamie Principato" wrote: >>> >>> Bridget, >>> >>> I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone going through what you've described without support, and I would love to share my experience and help you in any way I can. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jamie >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. >>>> >>>> Bridget >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>>>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>>>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>>>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>>>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>>>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>>>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>>>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>>>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>>>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>>>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>>>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>>>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>>>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>>>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>>>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>>>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>>>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>>>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>>>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>>>>> every diagram in the book. >>>>>> >>>>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>>>>> necessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Suzanne >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah! >>>>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>>>> changing. >>>>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>>>> list' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>>>>> Tyler >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>>>>> why >>>>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>>>> lets >>>>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>>>>> sue >>>>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>>>> advocating >>>>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>>>> done. >>>>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>>>> site. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>>>>> don't care. >>>>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>>>> fail >>>>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>>>> letter >>>>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>>>>> part >>>>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>>>>> math >>>>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>>>> seven >>>>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>>>> tests >>>>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>>>> a.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sat Nov 23 02:27:33 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 02:27:33 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <598D9560-694C-4F4B-8BEB-6FC5E1808AC0@gmail.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> <3ba98d59d6a44f3c9cd4f1a7566de218@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> <6423283D-5B6B-45AC-B27F-A7A567F626FC@aol.com>, <598D9560-694C-4F4B-8BEB-6FC5E1808AC0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8127550dfe7f4d6c92d0cca66b123c0c@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> I wonder where Helga's professor got the book from! Braille is so expensive, and hard to come by! Good grief! It's like I told the head boss of the DSS offices of my college, we need embossers on all three campuses, because if there are other sight impaired students in the future, they need to have the resources, and the knowhow to Braille the text for them! Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Josh Gregory [joshkart12 at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Sounds like a real pain in the you know what, if you have the facilities and the resources, see if you can get your book in braille. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 22, 2013, at 9:01 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: > > I know right. Pearson told me to downgrade internet explorer and jaws. They said they used math ml which was designed for jaws 12 and earlier. Ok let's get real here we are on jaws what 15. So I think some updates are necessary. The overall Pearson page was ok with jaws until I got in to my account on my math lab. I couldn't find my course not by bringing up a links list or using the jaws find feature. > I don't know they told me if I am using ie like 10 or something I need to downgrade. Not for nothing I just got a new laptop I am not downgrading anything. > The IT department at my college set up a laptop which should make jaws and math ml compatible for my math lab but no one tested it. I have to be real I do t have the time to play with different versions to see what works. > Thanks > Bridget > > > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 8:15 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >> Helga, this is awesome! >> Your professor actually bought the Braille book for you? >> Send him to my college! >> They wouldn't dare do something like that for me. >> Math is one thing that you really need Braille for. >> Blessings, Joshua >> ________________________________________ >> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Helga Schreiber [helga.schreiber at hotmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 6:57 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >> >> Hi Bridget, this is Helga. Sorry to hear all these situations that you're going through in your college. I actually can't believe that your professors are not coperating in giving you accommodations; I think that's not fair. I actually experience the same things that you are going through, not really with my professors, but with the Dissability office. They were not providing me accomodations that I needed for my classes, like having stuff in Braille. So I actually talked to the Vice President of my college, and told him what was happening regarding the DSS department, and he did something about it. For instance, I'm taking a Pre-Calculus math class, and Literature class this semester, and for my math class I wanted a Braille Pre-Calculus book, and he actually bought the book for me, and I'm using it a lot this semester. Actually this math book cost 3500 dollars. And I actually face many issues with the DSS department still. In fact, just to let you know, my professors coper >> ate with me, for instance my math professor makes me take her test in her office, and she scribes for me, and she is actually the head chair of the math department at my college. Also, I know that my math lab site is not accessible with with JAWS, for that my mom help me read the site. By the way, have you tried to talk to the Vice President regarding these situations? Also, What is the name of your college, and what kind of math class are you taking this semester, where you need to use my math lab site? Just curious. If you want you can contact me off list, and then I can tell you in more detail the situations that I faced in my college, and which I'm still are right now! My email address is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thanks for listening to me, and God bless!! ;) >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Jamie Principato" wrote: >>> >>> Bridget, >>> >>> I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone going through what you've described without support, and I would love to share my experience and help you in any way I can. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Jamie >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. >>>> >>>> Bridget >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPad >>>> >>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >>>>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >>>>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >>>>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >>>>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >>>>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >>>>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >>>>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >>>>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >>>>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >>>>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >>>>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >>>>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >>>>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >>>>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >>>>> >>>>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>>>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>>>>> want to do the legal channel. >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>>>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>>>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>>>>> >>>>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>>>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>>>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>>>>> every diagram in the book. >>>>>> >>>>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>>>>> necessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Suzanne >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yeah! >>>>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>>>>> changing. >>>>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>>>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>>>>> list' >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where should she take it? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>>>>> Tyler >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>>>>> why >>>>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>>>>> lets >>>>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>> Bridget! >>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>>>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>>>>> Good grief! >>>>>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>>>>> sue >>>>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>>>>> them >>>>>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>>>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>>>>> advocating >>>>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>>>>> done. >>>>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>>>>> site. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>>>>> don't care. >>>>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>>>>> fail >>>>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>>>>> letter >>>>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>>>>> part >>>>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>>>>> math >>>>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>>>>> seven >>>>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>>>>> tests >>>>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>> Bridget >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>>>>> o.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>>>>> a.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>>>>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From dandrews at visi.com Sat Nov 23 02:49:49 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 20:49:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Memories and Tributes Message-ID: A few days ago I had the sad task of telling people that long-time Federationist Adrienne Asch had passed away. Some friends of hers are going to put together a tribute book. If you have any rememberances, memories, tributes, etc., please post them here to this list and I will capture them and pass them along. I have already captured things that people have posted already. David Andrews From minh.ha927 at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 06:54:01 2013 From: minh.ha927 at gmail.com (minh ha) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 01:54:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Katie and all, Thank you so much for your responses--they were extremely helpful. I am meeting with my professor after Thanksgiving break to discuss the class and what we can do to help me work with SPSS and the course material in general. I think the university will provide students with a license of the software, so I don't have to worry about paying for it. However, do you know if there is a guide that comes with the software to show how to install the java accessibility bridge that Mary was talking about? I'm thinking that I might have to explore the program on my own before the class starts as my disability services office is kind of clueless when it comes to technology. Cheers, Minh On 11/22/13, Katie Wang wrote: > Hi Minh and all, > > While SPSS was completely inaccessible a few years ago, this is no > longer true - I have been using it for the past five years on a > regular basis and can do almost everything independently. Mary is > right that the accessibility set-up procedure can be a bit cumbersome, > but this has gotten significantly better since version 21. The > software license does cost quite a bit of money though (as a graduate > student, I just paid $95 for a one-year license), so if you are only > going to need the software for this one class then it might not be a > worthwhile investment. I'm a big fan of Excel, but based on my > experience it will most likely not be sufficient for a stats class you > would take for your sociology major. Arielle sent around a link to a > free, accessible stats calculator a little while ago on this list, > which is supposed to be quite useful and might be something worth > looking into (if you search the archives of this list for "SPSS" the > thread should come up). > > If you do end up tackling SPSS and have any specific questions, please > feel free to contact me off-list - I would be happy to share the > work-arounds and tips I have learned with you. It might be nice to > enlist assistance from a reader when you are getting acquainted with > the software, but once you figure out the basics you probably won't > need much sighted help (except for when you are creating charts and > graphs, of course). Hope this helps and best of luck! > > Katie > > > On 11/22/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: >> Minh and all, >> SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved >> program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must >> install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, >> it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before >> the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal >> when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS >> isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might >> want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat >> analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked >> everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think >> you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while >> you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the >> information that is being shown on screen. >> Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. >> Thanks. >> Mary >> >> On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Hi Minh, >>> Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this >>> list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've >>> read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is >>> SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest >>> version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical >>> program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel >>> is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit >>> down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what you >>> can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm slightly >>> biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. >>> Hope this Helps, >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >>>> Hi Minh and Emily, >>>> >>>> While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I absolutely >>>> had >>>> to, I've done some research on the accessibility of SPSS for some >>>> friends. >>>> As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible with >>>> JAWS >>>> or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot of >>>> difficulties >>>> to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who either use it on the >>>> job >>>> or in school. There are some other alternatives which are not nearly >>>> as >>>> good or as reputable as SPSS (because let's face it, sometimes these >>>> programs are used more for their reputation than for their actual >>>> productivity and feasibility), but they might be better alternatives >>>> for >>>> you >>>> if your professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >>>> It >>>> is important that your professor understands that you really cannot use >>>> SPSS >>>> and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an alternative >>>> software >>>> which would allow you to do the same work and with the same level of >>>> expectations as all of the other students. If you like, I can do some >>>> further research on software that would work for you and we can talk >>>> further >>>> off-list. In the mean time, I think Emily's Excell solution is >>>> probably >>>> your best bet. If you're having difficulties with your professor, see >>>> if >>>> you can't persuade your school's disability services people to help >>>> you. >>>> I >>>> hope this is helpful. >>>> >>>> Take Care, >>>> Ryan >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, Minh. >>>>> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. Fortunately >>>>> for >>>>> me, our class is business-based, and we only use Excel, which works >>>>> 99.9237% >>>>> of the time. I know your professor has already designated software >>>>> package, >>>>> but if you're having real trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform >>>>> most >>>>> statistical functions, and most Stats professors know their way around >>>>> Excel. >>>>> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy to >>>>> talk >>>>> some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert by any >>>>> means, >>>>> but >>>>> I've got a nice system down after nearly two semesters, and it's a >>>>> fascinating subject. >>>>> >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Emily >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>>>> software >>>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> >>>>> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my >>>>> sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main >>>>> component of the course involves doing work with the >>>>> StatisticalPackage >>>>> for >>>>> the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you >>>>> have >>>>> had >>>>> experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or >>>>> not? >>>>> I'm >>>>> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform >>>>> any >>>>> of >>>>> the assignments. >>>>> Thanks for any help you can give. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Minh >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>>> their >>>>> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.n >>>>> et >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >> feel." >> — >> Maya Angelou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com > -- "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence From tyler at tysdomain.com Sat Nov 23 07:02:14 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 02:02:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <529052F6.6090503@tysdomain.com> The java access bridge isn't to hard to install, but there's not a specific guide. You just have to follow a weird README and pray. Pray a lot, for Java broken bridge is tempermental. On 11/23/2013 1:54 AM, minh ha wrote: > Hi Katie and all, > > Thank you so much for your responses--they were extremely helpful. I > am meeting with my professor after Thanksgiving break to discuss the > class and what we can do to help me work with SPSS and the course > material in general. I think the university will provide students with > a license of the software, so I don't have to worry about paying for > it. However, do you know if there is a guide that comes with the > software to show how to install the java accessibility bridge that > Mary was talking about? I'm thinking that I might have to explore the > program on my own before the class starts as my disability services > office is kind of clueless when it comes to technology. > > Cheers, > Minh > > On 11/22/13, Katie Wang wrote: >> Hi Minh and all, >> >> While SPSS was completely inaccessible a few years ago, this is no >> longer true - I have been using it for the past five years on a >> regular basis and can do almost everything independently. Mary is >> right that the accessibility set-up procedure can be a bit cumbersome, >> but this has gotten significantly better since version 21. The >> software license does cost quite a bit of money though (as a graduate >> student, I just paid $95 for a one-year license), so if you are only >> going to need the software for this one class then it might not be a >> worthwhile investment. I'm a big fan of Excel, but based on my >> experience it will most likely not be sufficient for a stats class you >> would take for your sociology major. Arielle sent around a link to a >> free, accessible stats calculator a little while ago on this list, >> which is supposed to be quite useful and might be something worth >> looking into (if you search the archives of this list for "SPSS" the >> thread should come up). >> >> If you do end up tackling SPSS and have any specific questions, please >> feel free to contact me off-list - I would be happy to share the >> work-arounds and tips I have learned with you. It might be nice to >> enlist assistance from a reader when you are getting acquainted with >> the software, but once you figure out the basics you probably won't >> need much sighted help (except for when you are creating charts and >> graphs, of course). Hope this helps and best of luck! >> >> Katie >> >> >> On 11/22/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>> Minh and all, >>> SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved >>> program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must >>> install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, >>> it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before >>> the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal >>> when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS >>> isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might >>> want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat >>> analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked >>> everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think >>> you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while >>> you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the >>> information that is being shown on screen. >>> Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. >>> Thanks. >>> Mary >>> >>> On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>>> Hi Minh, >>>> Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this >>>> list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've >>>> read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is >>>> SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest >>>> version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical >>>> program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel >>>> is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit >>>> down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what you >>>> can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm slightly >>>> biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. >>>> Hope this Helps, >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >>>>> Hi Minh and Emily, >>>>> >>>>> While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I absolutely >>>>> had >>>>> to, I've done some research on the accessibility of SPSS for some >>>>> friends. >>>>> As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible with >>>>> JAWS >>>>> or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot of >>>>> difficulties >>>>> to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who either use it on the >>>>> job >>>>> or in school. There are some other alternatives which are not nearly >>>>> as >>>>> good or as reputable as SPSS (because let's face it, sometimes these >>>>> programs are used more for their reputation than for their actual >>>>> productivity and feasibility), but they might be better alternatives >>>>> for >>>>> you >>>>> if your professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >>>>> It >>>>> is important that your professor understands that you really cannot use >>>>> SPSS >>>>> and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an alternative >>>>> software >>>>> which would allow you to do the same work and with the same level of >>>>> expectations as all of the other students. If you like, I can do some >>>>> further research on software that would work for you and we can talk >>>>> further >>>>> off-list. In the mean time, I think Emily's Excell solution is >>>>> probably >>>>> your best bet. If you're having difficulties with your professor, see >>>>> if >>>>> you can't persuade your school's disability services people to help >>>>> you. >>>>> I >>>>> hope this is helpful. >>>>> >>>>> Take Care, >>>>> Ryan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, Minh. >>>>>> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. Fortunately >>>>>> for >>>>>> me, our class is business-based, and we only use Excel, which works >>>>>> 99.9237% >>>>>> of the time. I know your professor has already designated software >>>>>> package, >>>>>> but if you're having real trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform >>>>>> most >>>>>> statistical functions, and most Stats professors know their way around >>>>>> Excel. >>>>>> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy to >>>>>> talk >>>>>> some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert by any >>>>>> means, >>>>>> but >>>>>> I've got a nice system down after nearly two semesters, and it's a >>>>>> fascinating subject. >>>>>> >>>>>> Take care, >>>>>> Emily >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>>>>> software >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my >>>>>> sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main >>>>>> component of the course involves doing work with the >>>>>> StatisticalPackage >>>>>> for >>>>>> the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you >>>>>> have >>>>>> had >>>>>> experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or >>>>>> not? >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform >>>>>> any >>>>>> of >>>>>> the assignments. >>>>>> Thanks for any help you can give. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Minh >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>>>> their >>>>>> dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.n >>>>>> et >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mary Fernandez >>> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >>> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >>> feel." >>> — >>> Maya Angelou >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com >> > -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 11:07:32 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 06:07:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009701cee83c$35ba80e0$a12f82a0$@gmail.com> Should I use it for my class Next august, or should I use excel? It is a graduate level research statistics class in the field of rehab counseling. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 2:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software Hi Minh and all, While SPSS was completely inaccessible a few years ago, this is no longer true - I have been using it for the past five years on a regular basis and can do almost everything independently. Mary is right that the accessibility set-up procedure can be a bit cumbersome, but this has gotten significantly better since version 21. The software license does cost quite a bit of money though (as a graduate student, I just paid $95 for a one-year license), so if you are only going to need the software for this one class then it might not be a worthwhile investment. I'm a big fan of Excel, but based on my experience it will most likely not be sufficient for a stats class you would take for your sociology major. Arielle sent around a link to a free, accessible stats calculator a little while ago on this list, which is supposed to be quite useful and might be something worth looking into (if you search the archives of this list for "SPSS" the thread should come up). If you do end up tackling SPSS and have any specific questions, please feel free to contact me off-list - I would be happy to share the work-arounds and tips I have learned with you. It might be nice to enlist assistance from a reader when you are getting acquainted with the software, but once you figure out the basics you probably won't need much sighted help (except for when you are creating charts and graphs, of course). Hope this helps and best of luck! Katie On 11/22/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Minh and all, > SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved > program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must > install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, > it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before > the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal > when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS > isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might > want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat > analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked > everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think > you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while > you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the > information that is being shown on screen. > Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. > Thanks. > Mary > > On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Hi Minh, >> Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this >> list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've >> read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is >> SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest >> version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical >> program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel >> is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit >> down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what >> you can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm >> slightly biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. >> Hope this Helps, >> Patrick >> >> On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >>> Hi Minh and Emily, >>> >>> While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I >>> absolutely had to, I've done some research on the accessibility of >>> SPSS for some friends. >>> As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible >>> with JAWS or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot >>> of difficulties to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who >>> either use it on the job or in school. There are some other >>> alternatives which are not nearly as good or as reputable as SPSS >>> (because let's face it, sometimes these programs are used more for >>> their reputation than for their actual productivity and >>> feasibility), but they might be better alternatives for you if your >>> professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >>> It >>> is important that your professor understands that you really cannot >>> use SPSS and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an >>> alternative software which would allow you to do the same work and >>> with the same level of expectations as all of the other students. >>> If you like, I can do some further research on software that would >>> work for you and we can talk further off-list. In the mean time, I >>> think Emily's Excell solution is probably your best bet. If you're >>> having difficulties with your professor, see if you can't persuade >>> your school's disability services people to help you. >>> I >>> hope this is helpful. >>> >>> Take Care, >>> Ryan >>> >>> >>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Minh. >>>> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. >>>> Fortunately for me, our class is business-based, and we only use >>>> Excel, which works 99.9237% of the time. I know your professor has >>>> already designated software package, but if you're having real >>>> trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform most statistical >>>> functions, and most Stats professors know their way around Excel. >>>> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy >>>> to talk some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert >>>> by any means, but I've got a nice system down after nearly two >>>> semesters, and it's a fascinating subject. >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> Emily >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh >>>> ha >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>>> software >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for >>>> my sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the >>>> main component of the course involves doing work with the >>>> StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was >>>> wondering if any of you have had experience with this software and >>>> know whether it is accessible or not? >>>> I'm >>>> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to >>>> perform any of the assignments. >>>> Thanks for any help you can give. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington >>>> %40fuse.n >>>> et >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira >>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gma >> il.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > - > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmai > l.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 17:53:57 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:53:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences(SPSS) software In-Reply-To: <009701cee83c$35ba80e0$a12f82a0$@gmail.com> References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> <009701cee83c$35ba80e0$a12f82a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin, it depends on what you need it for. I suggest talking to your professor. They can tell you what spss is used for. Excel can do basic functions and it may be easier to use. But you need the best tool to do what the class is doing. so it depends on your needs. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 6:07 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences(SPSS) software Should I use it for my class Next august, or should I use excel? It is a graduate level research statistics class in the field of rehab counseling. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 2:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software Hi Minh and all, While SPSS was completely inaccessible a few years ago, this is no longer true - I have been using it for the past five years on a regular basis and can do almost everything independently. Mary is right that the accessibility set-up procedure can be a bit cumbersome, but this has gotten significantly better since version 21. The software license does cost quite a bit of money though (as a graduate student, I just paid $95 for a one-year license), so if you are only going to need the software for this one class then it might not be a worthwhile investment. I'm a big fan of Excel, but based on my experience it will most likely not be sufficient for a stats class you would take for your sociology major. Arielle sent around a link to a free, accessible stats calculator a little while ago on this list, which is supposed to be quite useful and might be something worth looking into (if you search the archives of this list for "SPSS" the thread should come up). If you do end up tackling SPSS and have any specific questions, please feel free to contact me off-list - I would be happy to share the work-arounds and tips I have learned with you. It might be nice to enlist assistance from a reader when you are getting acquainted with the software, but once you figure out the basics you probably won't need much sighted help (except for when you are creating charts and graphs, of course). Hope this helps and best of luck! Katie On 11/22/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Minh and all, > SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved > program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must > install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, > it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before > the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal > when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS > isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might > want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat > analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked > everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think > you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while > you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the > information that is being shown on screen. > Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. > Thanks. > Mary > > On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Hi Minh, >> Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this >> list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've >> read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is >> SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest >> version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical >> program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel >> is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit >> down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what >> you can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm >> slightly biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. >> Hope this Helps, >> Patrick >> >> On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >>> Hi Minh and Emily, >>> >>> While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I >>> absolutely had to, I've done some research on the accessibility of >>> SPSS for some friends. >>> As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible >>> with JAWS or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot >>> of difficulties to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who >>> either use it on the job or in school. There are some other >>> alternatives which are not nearly as good or as reputable as SPSS >>> (because let's face it, sometimes these programs are used more for >>> their reputation than for their actual productivity and >>> feasibility), but they might be better alternatives for you if your >>> professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >>> It >>> is important that your professor understands that you really cannot >>> use SPSS and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an >>> alternative software which would allow you to do the same work and >>> with the same level of expectations as all of the other students. >>> If you like, I can do some further research on software that would >>> work for you and we can talk further off-list. In the mean time, I >>> think Emily's Excell solution is probably your best bet. If you're >>> having difficulties with your professor, see if you can't persuade >>> your school's disability services people to help you. >>> I >>> hope this is helpful. >>> >>> Take Care, >>> Ryan >>> >>> >>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Minh. >>>> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. >>>> Fortunately for me, our class is business-based, and we only use >>>> Excel, which works 99.9237% of the time. I know your professor has >>>> already designated software package, but if you're having real >>>> trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform most statistical >>>> functions, and most Stats professors know their way around Excel. >>>> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy >>>> to talk some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert >>>> by any means, but I've got a nice system down after nearly two >>>> semesters, and it's a fascinating subject. >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> Emily >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh >>>> ha >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>>> software >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for >>>> my sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the >>>> main component of the course involves doing work with the >>>> StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was >>>> wondering if any of you have had experience with this software and >>>> know whether it is accessible or not? >>>> I'm >>>> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to >>>> perform any of the assignments. >>>> Thanks for any help you can give. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington >>>> %40fuse.n >>>> et >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira >>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gma >> il.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > - > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmai > l.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 18:14:39 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 13:14:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences(SPSS) software In-Reply-To: References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> <009701cee83c$35ba80e0$a12f82a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301cee877$e1c17f70$a5447e50$@gmail.com> Okay Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences(SPSS) software Justin, it depends on what you need it for. I suggest talking to your professor. They can tell you what spss is used for. Excel can do basic functions and it may be easier to use. But you need the best tool to do what the class is doing. so it depends on your needs. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 6:07 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences(SPSS) software Should I use it for my class Next august, or should I use excel? It is a graduate level research statistics class in the field of rehab counseling. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 2:09 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software Hi Minh and all, While SPSS was completely inaccessible a few years ago, this is no longer true - I have been using it for the past five years on a regular basis and can do almost everything independently. Mary is right that the accessibility set-up procedure can be a bit cumbersome, but this has gotten significantly better since version 21. The software license does cost quite a bit of money though (as a graduate student, I just paid $95 for a one-year license), so if you are only going to need the software for this one class then it might not be a worthwhile investment. I'm a big fan of Excel, but based on my experience it will most likely not be sufficient for a stats class you would take for your sociology major. Arielle sent around a link to a free, accessible stats calculator a little while ago on this list, which is supposed to be quite useful and might be something worth looking into (if you search the archives of this list for "SPSS" the thread should come up). If you do end up tackling SPSS and have any specific questions, please feel free to contact me off-list - I would be happy to share the work-arounds and tips I have learned with you. It might be nice to enlist assistance from a reader when you are getting acquainted with the software, but once you figure out the basics you probably won't need much sighted help (except for when you are creating charts and graphs, of course). Hope this helps and best of luck! Katie On 11/22/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Minh and all, > SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved > program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must > install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, > it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before > the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal > when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS > isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might > want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat > analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked > everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think > you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while > you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the > information that is being shown on screen. > Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. > Thanks. > Mary > > On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Hi Minh, >> Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this >> list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've >> read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is >> SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest >> version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical >> program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel >> is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit >> down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what >> you can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm >> slightly biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. >> Hope this Helps, >> Patrick >> >> On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >>> Hi Minh and Emily, >>> >>> While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I >>> absolutely had to, I've done some research on the accessibility of >>> SPSS for some friends. >>> As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible >>> with JAWS or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot >>> of difficulties to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who >>> either use it on the job or in school. There are some other >>> alternatives which are not nearly as good or as reputable as SPSS >>> (because let's face it, sometimes these programs are used more for >>> their reputation than for their actual productivity and >>> feasibility), but they might be better alternatives for you if your >>> professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >>> It >>> is important that your professor understands that you really cannot >>> use SPSS and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an >>> alternative software which would allow you to do the same work and >>> with the same level of expectations as all of the other students. >>> If you like, I can do some further research on software that would >>> work for you and we can talk further off-list. In the mean time, I >>> think Emily's Excell solution is probably your best bet. If you're >>> having difficulties with your professor, see if you can't persuade >>> your school's disability services people to help you. >>> I >>> hope this is helpful. >>> >>> Take Care, >>> Ryan >>> >>> >>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Minh. >>>> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. >>>> Fortunately for me, our class is business-based, and we only use >>>> Excel, which works 99.9237% of the time. I know your professor has >>>> already designated software package, but if you're having real >>>> trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform most statistical >>>> functions, and most Stats professors know their way around Excel. >>>> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy >>>> to talk some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert >>>> by any means, but I've got a nice system down after nearly two >>>> semesters, and it's a fascinating subject. >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> Emily >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh >>>> ha >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>>> software >>>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for >>>> my sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the >>>> main component of the course involves doing work with the >>>> StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was >>>> wondering if any of you have had experience with this software and >>>> know whether it is accessible or not? >>>> I'm >>>> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to >>>> perform any of the assignments. >>>> Thanks for any help you can give. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Minh >>>> >>>> -- >>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington >>>> %40fuse.n >>>> et >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira >>>> %40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40g >>> mail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gma >> il.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will > forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them > feel." > - > Maya Angelou > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmai > l.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From dandrews at visi.com Sat Nov 23 18:16:03 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:16:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <0D494D745D68457B8DA947F9F836DDE7@CarolynPC> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> <2050BA07-C428-46FB-93B1-5E70C2059CF2@gmail.com> <0D494D745D68457B8DA947F9F836DDE7@CarolynPC> Message-ID: We do have a Blind Math list on the nfbnet.org server, with lots of knowledgable people subscribed, most of the big whigs in the blind math field, http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindmath_nfbnet.org to join. Dave At 07:57 PM 11/22/2013, you wrote: >Hi Bridget, > >My daughter has a vision impairment, is a white cane user, and a Braille >reader. Last summer she was able to successfully complete a college math >course, but not without some accessibility issues along the way. I know she >would tell you that trying to use JAWS to do math isn't the way to go and >that Nemeth Code is necessary. With Nemeth she completed the class on time >and ended up with an "A". Without if, I don't think she would have been able >to complete the class in a timely manner, and certainly not with an "A". > >I agree with Helga that you are more likely to get assistance if you go >higher up the chain of command. This semester my daughter had major >accessibility issues (at a different college than we dealt with last >summer). At her current college the Disability Office wasn't providing >effective assistance, one professor's class was completely inaccessible, and >academic life was a nightmare. > >After talking and writing emails didn't work, our strategy was to find who >was the 504 Compliance Officer at her college. Then, we wrote a detailed >letter. My daughter wrote the narrative part of her experience and I wrote >the legal part. We clearly outlined how they were violating Section 504 and >stated that if the issues were not addressed within x number of days we >would file a formal complaint. (Not a lawsuit, but a complaint). > >This got attention. While everything isn't perfect, it is MUCH better. Had >we not gotten things turned around, we would have filed a formal complaint. >Had that not worked, we would have filed a lawsuit. Fortunately, we didn't >have to do more than spend 16 hours writing a very detailed, highly >targeted, letter. > >If you want more information, and possibly assistance in writing a letter, >contact me off-list: brafford at mind.net. > >Take care and all the best, > >Carolyn > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga Schreiber >Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 4:57 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > >Hi Bridget, this is Helga. Sorry to hear all these situations that you're >going through in your college. I actually can't believe that your professors >are not coperating in giving you accommodations; I think that's not fair. I >actually experience the same things that you are going through, not really >with my professors, but with the Dissability office. They were not providing >me accomodations that I needed for my classes, like having stuff in Braille. >So I actually talked to the Vice President of my college, and told him what >was happening regarding the DSS department, and he did something about it. >For instance, I'm taking a Pre-Calculus math class, and Literature class >this semester, and for my math class I wanted a Braille Pre-Calculus book, >and he actually bought the book for me, and I'm using it a lot this >semester. Actually this math book cost 3500 dollars. And I actually face >many issues with the DSS department still. In fact, just to let you know, my >professors coper > ate with me, for instance my math professor makes me take her test in her >office, and she scribes for me, and she is actually the head chair of the >math department at my college. Also, I know that my math lab site is not >accessible with with JAWS, for that my mom help me read the site. By the >way, have you tried to talk to the Vice President regarding these >situations? Also, What is the name of your college, and what kind of math >class are you taking this semester, where you need to use my math lab site? >Just curious. If you want you can contact me off list, and then I can tell >you in more detail the situations that I faced in my college, and which I'm >still are right now! My email address is helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Thanks >for listening to me, and God bless!! ;) > >Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 22, 2013, at 5:27 PM, "Jamie Principato" >wrote: > > > > Bridget, > > > > I invite you to contact me off list, and is be happy to discuss this >situation with you and perhaps help you a numerate some options. I had a >very similar situation at my previous university in Florida, and eventually >did have to take legal action against the university before issues in the >Math and disability services departments were addressed. Though I've since >left that school, it improved tremendously as a result of our lawsuit and >will be better now for future blind students. Anyway, I hate to see anyone >going through what you've described without support, and I would love to >share my experience and help you in any way I can. > > > > Best, > > > > Jamie > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 1:16 PM, Bridget Walker >wrote: > >> > >> Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who >thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. >I'll keep you posted. > >> > >> Bridget > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> > >>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson >wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult > >>> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that > >>> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I > >>> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math > >>> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for > >>> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges > >>> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes > >>> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can > >>> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out > >>> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take > >>> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of > >>> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. > >>> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised > >>> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS > >>> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. > >>> > >>>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >>>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official > >>>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did >not > >>>> want to do the legal channel. > >>>> > >>>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do >the > >>>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that >could > >>>> help provide braille and the other things you need? > >>>> > >>>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I >asked > >>>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my >computer > >>>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions >of > >>>> every diagram in the book. > >>>> > >>>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action >may be > >>>> necessary. > >>>> > >>>> Suzanne > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Yeah! > >>>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's > >>>>> changing. > >>>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is > >>>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! > >>>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," > >>>>> they'll do what's right by her! > >>>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams >[ > >>>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] > >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM > >>>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students >mailing > >>>>> list' > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > >>>>> > >>>>> Where should she take it? > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of >Littlefield, > >>>>> Tyler > >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM > >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > >>>>> > >>>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone >jumps > >>>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, >but > >>>>> why > >>>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue > >>>>> lets > >>>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" > >>>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >>>>>> Bridget! > >>>>>> Good grief! > >>>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris > >>>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! > >>>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? > >>>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your >options, > >>>>> but it looks like you have! > >>>>>> Good grief! > >>>>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>>>> ________________________________________ > >>>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey > >>>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM > >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with >DS > >>>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, >rude, > >>>>> and > >>>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper >time > >>>>> to > >>>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of > >>>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the >department > >>>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything > >>>>> that > >>>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not >saying > >>>>> sue > >>>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word > >>>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets > >>>>> them > >>>>> know that you know your rights. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this >helps! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey > >>>>>> (336) 988-6375 > >>>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com > >>>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker > >>>>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi everyone, > >>>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it > >>>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due >to > >>>>> a > >>>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. > >>>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. >At > >>>>> least that's how the semester starts. > >>>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that > >>>>>>> are > >>>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together >or > >>>>> focus on one disability and not the other? > >>>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for > >>>>>>> advocating > >>>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job > >>>>> done. > >>>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along > >>>>> with > >>>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the > >>>>> site. > >>>>> I > >>>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but >they > >>>>> don't care. > >>>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and >tactile. > >>>>> The > >>>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't >see > >>>>> and > >>>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass > >>>>> fail > >>>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual > >>>>> letter > >>>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read > >>>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I >don't > >>>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye >report > >>>>> to > >>>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in >the > >>>>> part > >>>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. > >>>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a > >>>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. >The > >>>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so >my > >>>>> math > >>>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows > >>>>> seven > >>>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be > >>>>> downgrading my technology for a book. > >>>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? > >>>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an > >>>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't > >>>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did >well > >>>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my > >>>>> tests > >>>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. > >>>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? > >>>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground > >>>>>>> and > >>>>> I get nowhere. > >>>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. > >>>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. > >>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>> Bridget > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Sent from my iPad > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho > >>>>>>> o.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > >>>>>> a.edu > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>> >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > >>>>>> com > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Take care, > >>>>> Ty > >>>>> http://tds-solutions.net > >>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; >he > >>>>> that > >>>>> dares not reason is a slave. From dandrews at visi.com Sat Nov 23 18:30:06 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 12:30:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software In-Reply-To: <529052F6.6090503@tysdomain.com> References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> <529052F6.6090503@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: If you go to www.empowermentzone.com/jwin.htm there is a program that will install JAVA and set up the Access Bridge, you can download directly at: http://www.empowermentzone.com/jwin_setup.exe Dave At 01:02 AM 11/23/2013, you wrote: >The java access bridge isn't to hard to install, but there's not a >specific guide. You just have to follow a weird README and pray. >Pray a lot, for Java broken bridge is tempermental. >On 11/23/2013 1:54 AM, minh ha wrote: >>Hi Katie and all, >> >>Thank you so much for your responses--they were extremely helpful. I >>am meeting with my professor after Thanksgiving break to discuss the >>class and what we can do to help me work with SPSS and the course >>material in general. I think the university will provide students with >>a license of the software, so I don't have to worry about paying for >>it. However, do you know if there is a guide that comes with the >>software to show how to install the java accessibility bridge that >>Mary was talking about? I'm thinking that I might have to explore the >>program on my own before the class starts as my disability services >>office is kind of clueless when it comes to technology. >> >>Cheers, >>Minh >> >>On 11/22/13, Katie Wang wrote: >>>Hi Minh and all, >>> >>>While SPSS was completely inaccessible a few years ago, this is no >>>longer true - I have been using it for the past five years on a >>>regular basis and can do almost everything independently. Mary is >>>right that the accessibility set-up procedure can be a bit cumbersome, >>>but this has gotten significantly better since version 21. The >>>software license does cost quite a bit of money though (as a graduate >>>student, I just paid $95 for a one-year license), so if you are only >>>going to need the software for this one class then it might not be a >>>worthwhile investment. I'm a big fan of Excel, but based on my >>>experience it will most likely not be sufficient for a stats class you >>>would take for your sociology major. Arielle sent around a link to a >>>free, accessible stats calculator a little while ago on this list, >>>which is supposed to be quite useful and might be something worth >>>looking into (if you search the archives of this list for "SPSS" the >>>thread should come up). >>> >>>If you do end up tackling SPSS and have any specific questions, please >>>feel free to contact me off-list - I would be happy to share the >>>work-arounds and tips I have learned with you. It might be nice to >>>enlist assistance from a reader when you are getting acquainted with >>>the software, but once you figure out the basics you probably won't >>>need much sighted help (except for when you are creating charts and >>>graphs, of course). Hope this helps and best of luck! >>> >>>Katie >>> >>> >>>On 11/22/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>>>Minh and all, >>>>SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved >>>>program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must >>>>install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, >>>>it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before >>>>the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal >>>>when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS >>>>isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might >>>>want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat >>>>analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked >>>>everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think >>>>you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while >>>>you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the >>>>information that is being shown on screen. >>>>Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. >>>>Thanks. >>>>Mary >>>> >>>>On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>>>>Hi Minh, >>>>>Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this >>>>>list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've >>>>>read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is >>>>>SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest >>>>>version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical >>>>>program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel >>>>>is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit >>>>>down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what you >>>>>can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm slightly >>>>>biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. >>>>>Hope this Helps, >>>>>Patrick >>>>> >>>>>On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >>>>>>Hi Minh and Emily, >>>>>> >>>>>>While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I absolutely >>>>>>had >>>>>>to, I've done some research on the accessibility of SPSS for some >>>>>>friends. >>>>>>As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible with >>>>>>JAWS >>>>>>or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot of >>>>>>difficulties >>>>>>to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who either use it on the >>>>>>job >>>>>>or in school. There are some other alternatives which are not nearly >>>>>>as >>>>>>good or as reputable as SPSS (because let's face it, sometimes these >>>>>>programs are used more for their reputation than for their actual >>>>>>productivity and feasibility), but they might be better alternatives >>>>>>for >>>>>>you >>>>>>if your professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >>>>>>It >>>>>>is important that your professor understands that you really cannot use >>>>>>SPSS >>>>>>and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an alternative >>>>>>software >>>>>>which would allow you to do the same work and with the same level of >>>>>>expectations as all of the other students. If you like, I can do some >>>>>>further research on software that would work for you and we can talk >>>>>>further >>>>>>off-list. In the mean time, I think Emily's Excell solution is >>>>>>probably >>>>>>your best bet. If you're having difficulties with your professor, see >>>>>>if >>>>>>you can't persuade your school's disability services people to help >>>>>>you. >>>>>>I >>>>>>hope this is helpful. >>>>>> >>>>>>Take Care, >>>>>>Ryan >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >>>>>> >>>>>>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>Hi, Minh. >>>>>>>I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. Fortunately >>>>>>>for >>>>>>>me, our class is business-based, and we only use Excel, which works >>>>>>>99.9237% >>>>>>>of the time. I know your professor has already designated software >>>>>>>package, >>>>>>>but if you're having real trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform >>>>>>>most >>>>>>>statistical functions, and most Stats professors know their way around >>>>>>>Excel. >>>>>>>If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy to >>>>>>>talk >>>>>>>some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert by any >>>>>>>means, >>>>>>>but >>>>>>>I've got a nice system down after nearly two semesters, and it's a >>>>>>>fascinating subject. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Take care, >>>>>>>Emily >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh ha >>>>>>>Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>>>>>>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>>>>>>software >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hello all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for my >>>>>>>sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the main >>>>>>>component of the course involves doing work with the >>>>>>>StatisticalPackage >>>>>>>for >>>>>>>the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was wondering if any of you >>>>>>>have >>>>>>>had >>>>>>>experience with this software and know whether it is accessible or >>>>>>>not? >>>>>>>I'm >>>>>>>just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to perform >>>>>>>any >>>>>>>of >>>>>>>the assignments. >>>>>>>Thanks for any help you can give. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Cheers, >>>>>>>Minh >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-- >>>>>>>"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty >>>>>>>recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: >>>>>>>but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>>>>>their >>>>>>>dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>nabs-l: >>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington%40fuse.n >>>>>>>et >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>nabs-l: >>>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>nabs-l: >>>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>nabs-l: >>>>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Sat Nov 23 18:36:27 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 11:36:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences(SPSS) software In-Reply-To: <000301cee877$e1c17f70$a5447e50$@gmail.com> References: <004101cee72b$133fa070$39bee150$@fuse.net> <23611536-F5B7-4DDA-94A2-9AD019178CE8@gmail.com> <009701cee83c$35ba80e0$a12f82a0$@gmail.com> <000301cee877$e1c17f70$a5447e50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, The free stat calculator is at: www.graphpad.com/quickcalcs/ It works great for introductory stats, and will probably be fine for Justin's research class too. It is also very easy to learn. It's nice that you can get access to an SPSS license, but I imagine that in order to use it you will have to install JAWS and the JAVA Access Bridge on a public school computer. Depending on how easy or difficult that is, you can decide whether to try to use SPSS or to use GraphPad instead. Best, Arielle On 11/23/13, justin williams wrote: > Okay Thanks. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley > Bramlett > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 12:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences(SPSS) > software > > Justin, > it depends on what you need it for. I suggest talking to your professor. > They can tell you what spss is used for. > Excel can do basic functions and it may be easier to use. > But you need the best tool to do what the class is doing. so it depends on > your needs. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 6:07 AM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences(SPSS) > software > > Should I use it for my class > Next august, or should I use excel? It is a graduate level research > statistics class in the field of rehab counseling. > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Katie Wang > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 2:09 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) > software > > Hi Minh and all, > > While SPSS was completely inaccessible a few years ago, this is no longer > true - I have been using it for the past five years on a regular basis and > can do almost everything independently. Mary is right that the > accessibility > set-up procedure can be a bit cumbersome, but this has gotten significantly > better since version 21. The software license does cost quite a bit of > money > though (as a graduate student, I just paid $95 for a one-year license), so > if you are only going to need the software for this one class then it might > not be a worthwhile investment. I'm a big fan of Excel, but based on my > experience it will most likely not be sufficient for a stats class you > would > take for your sociology major. Arielle sent around a link to a free, > accessible stats calculator a little while ago on this list, which is > supposed to be quite useful and might be something worth looking into (if > you search the archives of this list for "SPSS" the thread should come up). > > If you do end up tackling SPSS and have any specific questions, please feel > free to contact me off-list - I would be happy to share the work-arounds > and > tips I have learned with you. It might be nice to enlist assistance from a > reader when you are getting acquainted with the software, but once you > figure out the basics you probably won't need much sighted help (except for > when you are creating charts and graphs, of course). Hope this helps and > best of luck! > > Katie > > > On 11/22/13, Mary Fernandez wrote: >> Minh and all, >> SPSS is accessible. However, it is a bit of a cumbersome, involved >> program for everyone who uses it. Talk to the IT people, they must >> install SPSS, Jaws and the Java accessibility bridge. at that point, >> it'll be up to you to get a good understanding of the software before >> the beginning of the semester. I don't believe in separate but equal >> when there is a way to use the same software as everyone else. SPSS >> isn't perfect but it works. As an additional accommodation, you might >> want to work with a reader when running and reading your stat >> analysis. A reader can be there to make sure that you have clicked >> everything you intended to, and that you are reading what you think >> you are reading. They should only serve as a pair of extra eyes while >> you get your barings and are confident that you are gleaning all the >> information that is being shown on screen. >> Arielle is the expert on SPSS and always encourages contact. >> Thanks. >> Mary >> >> On 11/21/13, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Hi Minh, >>> Funny you should mention SPSS, as I recently posted about it on this >>> list. You're right to wonder about its accessibility. From what I've >>> read here and what I experienced, I'd say go with Excel. SPSS is >>> SUPPOSEDLY accessible in its latest version and with the latest >>> version of JAWS. From what I've heard though, it's a very graphical >>> program, so you'll wind up exporting things INTO Excel anyway. Excel >>> is very good about statistical calculations if you're willing to sit >>> down and play with it a little bit. So, long story short, see what >>> you can do with Excel and if all else fails, THEN try SPSS. I'm >>> slightly biased, since I had a bad experience or 2 with SPSS. >>> Hope this Helps, >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 11/21/13, Ryan Silveira wrote: >>>> Hi Minh and Emily, >>>> >>>> While I'm definitely not one who would take stats unless I >>>> absolutely had to, I've done some research on the accessibility of >>>> SPSS for some friends. >>>> As far as I know, SPSS has yet to become even remotely accessible >>>> with JAWS or any other screen reader. I know that it presents a lot >>>> of difficulties to a lot of blind and visually impaired people who >>>> either use it on the job or in school. There are some other >>>> alternatives which are not nearly as good or as reputable as SPSS >>>> (because let's face it, sometimes these programs are used more for >>>> their reputation than for their actual productivity and >>>> feasibility), but they might be better alternatives for you if your >>>> professor is looking for something more "involved" than Excell. >>>> It >>>> is important that your professor understands that you really cannot >>>> use SPSS and that he or she be willing to allow you to use an >>>> alternative software which would allow you to do the same work and >>>> with the same level of expectations as all of the other students. >>>> If you like, I can do some further research on software that would >>>> work for you and we can talk further off-list. In the mean time, I >>>> think Emily's Excell solution is probably your best bet. If you're >>>> having difficulties with your professor, see if you can't persuade >>>> your school's disability services people to help you. >>>> I >>>> hope this is helpful. >>>> >>>> Take Care, >>>> Ryan >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:32 PM, "Emily Pennington" >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, Minh. >>>>> I'm in my second semester of Stats, and I really like it. >>>>> Fortunately for me, our class is business-based, and we only use >>>>> Excel, which works 99.9237% of the time. I know your professor has >>>>> already designated software package, but if you're having real >>>>> trouble, Excel is a great avenue to perform most statistical >>>>> functions, and most Stats professors know their way around Excel. >>>>> If you come across any formula questions with Excel, I'd be happy >>>>> to talk some more with you off-list. I'm definitely not an expert >>>>> by any means, but I've got a nice system down after nearly two >>>>> semesters, and it's a fascinating subject. >>>>> >>>>> Take care, >>>>> Emily >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of minh >>>>> ha >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2013 9:23 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) >>>>> software >>>>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> >>>>> I am taking statistics next semester which is a required course for >>>>> my sociology major. I spoke with the professor and he said that the >>>>> main component of the course involves doing work with the >>>>> StatisticalPackage for the Social Sciences (SPSS) software. I was >>>>> wondering if any of you have had experience with this software and >>>>> know whether it is accessible or not? >>>>> I'm >>>>> just nervous that it's not accessible and I won't be able to >>>>> perform any of the assignments. >>>>> Thanks for any help you can give. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Minh >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the >>>>> dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was > vanity: >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E. Lawrence >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/emilypennington >>>>> %40fuse.n >>>>> et >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ryan.l.silveira >>>>> %40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40g >>>> mail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gma >>> il.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will >> forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them >> feel." >> - >> Maya Angelou >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink. > net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 18:43:08 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 13:43:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F43C2B735924A08929495317C86B913@OwnerPC> Bridgit, Good luck getting this resolved. As advocacy takes a long time, I suggest you withdraw from the art class rather than getting a bad grade or pass/fail grade. For your other issues, continue speaking to your ds office and suggest alternatives. For instance the math tests should be read by a competent reader familiar with math or brailled for you. For the inaccessible software of google sites and MY Math Lab, you can either use a reader or work around that access by accessing info another way. I gave more examples in my last email of how I handled my Math lab issue and the googld docs assignment I had in english. I also think you should go up the chain of command. If that fails, go file a complaint. Also remember to document everything and keep hard copy records of email corespondence. You need it in writing that they denied you accomodations. I hope you get it resolved! Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridget Walker Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 12:26 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Hi everyone, I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. Then to have them say what is the big deal? We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. I just want to know what do people think of all of this? I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. Thanks Bridget Sent from my iPad _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Nov 23 18:50:03 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 13:50:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> References: , <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Justin and all, I believe law suits are our last, last resort. To answer the question she could do a number of things. She could take it up the chain of command to the president of the school, if needed. She should first speak to assistant deans or if they don't have that, speak to deans. Then I think the next level is dean of administration. She needs to let the dean of that art department know that the professor is refusing to work with her. So go up the chain. Additionally, she could take her case to a local advocacy group if one is in her area or get an NFB state rep involved as an advocate. Finally, some schools have a procedure to resolve complaints. Its called alternative dispute resolution where basically they hear both sides and come to an agreement as to what needs to be done. I hope Bridgit has support such as friends or family. She should write letters to officials like the deans, but before sending them its best to have someone look at them and give you advice on how clear it looks and that its business like as opposed to emotional. Sometimes, with issues like this its so easy to dash off a heated letter or email and then nothing gets done. So it does help to have someone either write it with you or at least give you feedback before proceeding to the recipent of that corespondence. So, I firmly believe you exhaust all resources prior to lawsuits. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:59 AM To: tyler at tysdomain.com ; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Where should she take it? -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but why not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue lets sue o yeah lawsuit!" On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Bridget! > Good grief! > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris Danielson, and get the NFB involved! > Can anyone say lawsuit? > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, but it looks like you have! > Good grief! > Blessings, Joshua > ________________________________________ > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey > [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them know that you know your rights. > > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > (336) 988-6375 > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker wrote: >> >> Hi everyone, >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At least that's how the semester starts. >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or focus on one disability and not the other? >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they don't care. >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be downgrading my technology for a book. >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and I get nowhere. >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >> Thanks >> Bridget >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >> o.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > a.edu > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 00:34:58 2013 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:34:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: internship opportunities for blind college students and graduates at Congressman Steve Stockman's office In-Reply-To: <030001cee88c$66023810$3206a830$@verizon.net> References: <030001cee88c$66023810$3206a830$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <002101cee8ad$017a6db0$046f4910$@gmail.com> Good evening, Here is an opportunity that may be of potential interest. I have done an internship on Capitol Hill, and it was a great experience. Very nice to see that a Congressman is making a proactive effort to provide internships to blind students. Thanks, Sean -----Original Message----- From: Nfbv-announce [mailto:nfbv-announce-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Kasey Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 7:38 PM To: michaelgkasey at verizon.net Subject: [Nfbv-announce] internship opportunities for blind college students and graduates at Congressman Steve Stockman's office I received this from a past Scholarship Winner of the Fredericksburg Area chapter! Hi Michael Kasey, I hope all is well. I am sending this e-mail from the Capitol and hoping to reach out to you in hopes that you can help me get the word out about internship opportunities for blind college students and graduates at Congressman Steve Stockman's office in Washington DC. The office is located in the Cannon building, room 326, very accessible. The Congressman is wonderful. Right now there are two Blind interns, myself and a law student at Georgetown University. It is a well-rounded experience, and you never know what the day will bring. If you can please send this to all the chapters you possibly have contact with in the Virginia and DC Metro area that would be wonderful because it is such a wonderful opportunity. Congressman Stockman is a firm believer of giving everyone opportunity. If you have any questions you can e-mail me back at this e-mail or call the office at 202-225-0396. I will be more than happy to answer any inquiries. Blessings, Jaclyn Petrow Jaclyn.Petrow at mail.house.gov _______________________________________________ Nfbv-announce mailing list Nfbv-announce at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nfbv-announce_nfbnet.org From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 00:47:49 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:47:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How To connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone 5 Message-ID: Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I’m currently using my iPhone 5 in order to check emails, and write them, and I already have my bluetooth keyboard connected to it, but I would like to have my BrailleNote Apex connected to my iPhone. I really don’t know how to do that. Do you guys know how to do that, and what are the steps in doing so? Also, do you think I could connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone even though my Bluetooth Keyboard is connected to it? Just curious! I will really appreciate it a lot if you could help me in doing so, since I would like to check and write my college emails in Braille. Thanks and God bless!! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: wlEmoticon-smile[1].png Type: image/png Size: 1046 bytes Desc: not available URL: From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 00:54:03 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:54:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: How To connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone 5 References: Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: "Helga Schreiber" > Date: November 23, 2013 at 7:47:49 PM EST > To: > Subject: [nabs-l] How To connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone 5 > Reply-To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Hi guys, this is Helga. What’s up? I’m currently using my iPhone 5 in order to check emails, and write them, and I already have my bluetooth keyboard connected to it, but I would like to have my BrailleNote Apex connected to my iPhone. I really don’t know how to do that. Do you guys know how to do that, and what are the steps in doing so? Also, do you think I could connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone even though my Bluetooth Keyboard is connected to it? Just curious! I will really appreciate it a lot if you could help me in doing so, since I would like to check and write my college emails in Braille. Thanks and God bless!! > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com From wmodnl at hotmail.com Sun Nov 24 02:50:19 2013 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 21:50:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> <46A0FA86-31A7-4871-A54A-FAB4F3C2E3D6@aol.com> Message-ID: Be sure to network and speak with everyone within the chain of command. Include the president. Find out if the school has a 504 director. Finally, make sure, you have a group behind you. This can even be people from VR or UCP. See if your state has a disability law center. What school is this? Good luck. Sent from my iPad > On Nov 22, 2013, at 3:21 PM, "Bridget Walker" wrote: > > Thanks everyone for the feedback. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is crazy. I'm acting on everything trying to plan my next step. I'll keep you posted. > > Bridget > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:55 PM, Joshua Hendrickson wrote: >> >> Hi Bridget. This situation is not right at all. I know how difficult >> using my math lab can be. I used tutors to read me the questions that >> were on the my math lab site and did the questions with my tutor. I >> didn't do all the questions, but about half of them, my math >> professors were very acomidating in this regard. I took the tests for >> my math classes, some with the instructors, and some at our colleges >> testing center. I'd say geometry was one of the hardest math classes >> I took, but some of the algebra wasn't so bad. Since you have CP, can >> you use a brailler ok? If so, you should use a brailler to write out >> some of your math problems so you'll understand them. This does take >> sometime, but is really worth it in the long run. If I had had one of >> the new notetakers with Nemith braiolle input, I would have used it. >> What your school is doing is completely wrong. I'm very surprised >> your Disability Support Office didn't help you if your school has a DS >> office. Please keep us posted on what happens. >> >>> On 11/22/13, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> This is true. VR fought me on something and once I filed an official >>> appeal, all of a sudden what I was asking for was approved. They did not >>> want to do the legal channel. >>> >>> I agree if she has done all the channel at the school she needs to do the >>> next step. In the meantime is there any blind org in your area that could >>> help provide braille and the other things you need? >>> >>> I have a lot of usable vision but am totally color blind and when I asked >>> DRC for ideas on handling diagrams with color coded lines in my computer >>> organization, the first thing they offered was to make tactile versions of >>> every diagram in the book. >>> >>> Her school is being completely unreasonable and I think legal action may be >>> necessary. >>> >>> Suzanne >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 8:02 AM, Joshua Lester >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah! >>>> She has gone to all of the higher-ups in the school, and nothing's >>>> changing. >>>> Once they know she means business, and they hear that a lawsuit is >>>> probable, they'll give her what she needs! >>>> Most people want to avoid lawsuits, so if we "Scare them straight," >>>> they'll do what's right by her! >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of justin williams [ >>>> justin.williams2 at gmail.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:59 AM >>>> To: tyler at tysdomain.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >>>> list' >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>> >>>> Where should she take it? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >>>> Tyler >>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>> >>>> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >>>> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but >>>> why >>>> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue >>>> lets >>>> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >>>>> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> Bridget! >>>>> Good grief! >>>>> You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >>>> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >>>>> Can anyone say lawsuit? >>>>> I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >>>> but it looks like you have! >>>>> Good grief! >>>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >>>>> [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >>>>> >>>>> This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >>>> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, >>>> and >>>> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time >>>> to >>>> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >>>> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >>>> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything >>>> that >>>> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying >>>> sue >>>> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >>>> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets >>>> them >>>> know that you know your rights. >>>>> >>>>> I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >>>>> >>>>> Bobbi A. L. Pompey >>>>> (336) 988-6375 >>>>> pompey2010 at yahoo.com >>>>> http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >>>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi everyone, >>>>>> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >>>> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to >>>> a >>>> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >>>>>> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >>>> least that's how the semester starts. >>>>>> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that >>>>>> are >>>> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >>>> focus on one disability and not the other? >>>>>> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for >>>>>> advocating >>>> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job >>>> done. >>>>>> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along >>>> with >>>> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the >>>> site. >>>> I >>>> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >>>> don't care. >>>>>> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. >>>> The >>>> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see >>>> and >>>> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass >>>> fail >>>> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual >>>> letter >>>> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >>>> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >>>> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report >>>> to >>>> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the >>>> part >>>> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >>>>>> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >>>> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >>>> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my >>>> math >>>> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows >>>> seven >>>> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >>>> downgrading my technology for a book. >>>>>> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >>>>>> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >>>> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >>>> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >>>> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my >>>> tests >>>> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >>>>>> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >>>>>> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground >>>>>> and >>>> I get nowhere. >>>>>> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >>>>>> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >>>>>> Thanks >>>>>> Bridget >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >>>>>> o.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >>>>> a.edu >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >>>>> com >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Take care, >>>> Ty >>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he >>>> that >>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 03:34:19 2013 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 22:34:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: Make A Child's Wish Come True This Holiday Season With The Audio Access FM Make A Wish Fund Raiser Message-ID: <40FDFB37A42348C99FE69297CA88E302@JasminePC> Hi All! Please send this email on to as many people as you know who would find this interesting. I apologize if list moderators find this email off topic, but I believe it's for a worthy cause and it's a chance for us to give back to those who need a smile during this holiday season! The Audio Access FM Holiday Fun has begun! Our yearly fund raiser for The Make A Wish Fund Raiser is the first in a series of events we'll be doing to make everyone's holiday a little brighter. But there's nothing more awesome than a child smiling at Christmas time. Which is what makes it so sad when we see so many children who are terminally ill who won't have the same fun this Christmas that a healthy child would. So Audio Access FM is here to raise money for Make A Wish with the hope that we can help to make a child's wish come true. Which is what Make A Wish does - Grants wishes to ill children. From something as simple as having a puppy for a pet, or touring a museum. To something more incredible like meeting the president. Make A Wish tries to make some unhealthy child happy for aat least one more day. Learn more about Make A Wish at http://www.makeawish.org So join Audio Access in its quest to make a child's wish come true this season. And by giving to Make A Wish, we'll give you a prize. That's right. All who participate, whether with one dollar, or one hundred, will be put in our prize drawing. All prizes are drawn during our two night Djd Invasion Christmas special, held on both December 22 and 23 of this year. So, to help a child, and to guarantee yourself a prize this season, drop on over to http://www.audioaccess.fm/makeawish2013 If you'd like to donate a prize to be given away, please drop me an email at thedjdinvasion at audioaccess.fm with the details on what you'd like to offer. The donation page will show how much we've raised, and our twitter account at audioaccessfm will let you know how we're doing, too. You may also want to go to our main page at http://www.audioaccess.fm to subscribe to our announcements list, as more events will be coming up including your chance to send someone you love an audio Christmas card, receive assistance from us with shopping for that special someone, and more! Details to come on these other events right after Thanksgiving, so keep your eyes and ears open. As the holiday celebration for Audio Access FM begins! Happy Thanksgiving to all in the US, and get ready for more exciting Audio Access Holiday Fun! >From David Dunphy, From sweetpeareader at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 17:15:47 2013 From: sweetpeareader at gmail.com (Sophie Trist) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 11:15:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] How To connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone 5 Message-ID: <52923470.a2c6ec0a.09dc.ffffb254@mx.google.com> SGVsZ2EsIGhlcmUgYXJlIHRoZSBzdGVwcyB0byBjb25uZWN0IGEgYnJhaWxsZW5vdGUgdG8gYW4g aVBob25lLgoxLiBPbiB0aGUgYnJhaWxsZW5vdGUsIGdvIHRvIHRoZSBvcHRpb25zIG1lbnUuCjIu IEdvIHRvIHRoZSBjb25uZWN0aXZpdHkgbWVudS4KMy4gUHJlc3MgQiBmb3IgYmx1ZXRvb3RoLiBN YWtlIHN1cmUgYmx1ZXRvb3RoIGlzIHR1cm5lZCBvbi4KNC4gV2hlbiB0aGUgYnJhaWxsZW5vdGUg c2F5cywgIlNlYXJjaCBmb3IgZGV2aWNlcywiIERPIE5PVCBwcmVzcyAKWSBmb3IgeWVzLiBJbnN0 ZWFkLCBleGl0IHRvIHRoZSBtYWluIG1lbnUgYW5kIHByZXNzIFQgZm9yIGJyYWlsbGUgCnRlcm1p bmFsLiBNYWtlIHN1cmUgdGhlIGJyYWlsbGUgdGVybWluYWwgcG9ydCBpcyBibHVldG9vdGgsIG5v dCAKVVNCLgo1LiBPbiB0aGUgaVBob25lLCBnbyB0byBzZXR0aW5ncy9nZW5lcmFsL2FjY2Vzc2Fi aWxpdHkvVm9pY2VPdmVyLiAKRmxpY2sgcmlnaHQgdW50aWwgeW91IHNlZSBCcmFpbGxlLiBUaGVu IGdvIHRvIENob29zZSBhIEJyYWlsbGUgCkRldmljZS4gVGhlIGlQaG9uZSBzaG91bGQgZmluZCB5 b3VyIGJyYWlsbGVub3RlLiBXaGVuIGl0IGFza3MgZm9yIAphIHBpbiwgdHlwZSAwMDAwIHJlYWxs eSBmYXN0IGJlY2F1c2UgaXQncyBvbiBhIHRpbWUgbGltaXQuIFRoZW4sIApwcmVzcyB0aGUgcGFp ciBidXR0b24gYW5kIHlvdSBzaG91bGQgYmUgZ29vZCB0byBnby4KCkkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBpZiB5 b3UgY2FuIGhhdmUgbW9yZSB0aGFuIG9uZSBkZXZpY2UgY29ubmVjdGVkIHRvIAp0aGUgaVBob25l IGF0IHRoZSBzYW1lIHRpbWUuIEkgaG9wZSB0aGlzIGhlbHBzLgoKIC0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0KRnJvbTogIkhlbGdhIFNjaHJlaWJlciIgPGhlbGdhLnNjaHJlaWJlckBob3Rt YWlsLmNvbQpUbzogPG5hYnMtbEBuZmJuZXQub3JnCkRhdGUgc2VudDogU2F0LCAyMyBOb3YgMjAx MyAxOTo0Nzo0OSAtMDUwMApTdWJqZWN0OiBbbmFicy1sXSBIb3cgVG8gY29ubmVjdCBteSBCcmFp bGxlTm90ZSBBcGV4IHRvIG15IGlQaG9uZSAKNQoKSGkgZ3V5cywgdGhpcyBpcyBIZWxnYS4gV2hh dOKAmXMgdXA/IEnigJltIGN1cnJlbnRseSB1c2luZyBteSAKaVBob25lIDUgaW4gb3JkZXIgdG8g Y2hlY2sgZW1haWxzLCBhbmQgd3JpdGUgdGhlbSwgYW5kIEkgYWxyZWFkeSAKaGF2ZSBteSBibHVl dG9vdGgga2V5Ym9hcmQgY29ubmVjdGVkIHRvIGl0LCBidXQgSSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRvIApoYXZl IG15IEJyYWlsbGVOb3RlIEFwZXggY29ubmVjdGVkIHRvIG15IGlQaG9uZS4gSSByZWFsbHkgZG9u 4oCZdCAKa25vdyBob3cgdG8gZG8gdGhhdC4gRG8geW91IGd1eXMga25vdyBob3cgdG8gZG8gdGhh dCwgYW5kIHdoYXQgCmFyZSB0aGUgc3RlcHMgaW4gZG9pbmcgc28/IEFsc28sIGRvIHlvdSB0aGlu ayBJIGNvdWxkIGNvbm5lY3QgbXkgCkJyYWlsbGVOb3RlIEFwZXggdG8gbXkgaVBob25lIGV2ZW4g dGhvdWdoIG15IEJsdWV0b290aCBLZXlib2FyZCAKaXMgY29ubmVjdGVkIHRvIGl0PyBKdXN0IGN1 cmlvdXMhIEkgd2lsbCByZWFsbHkgYXBwcmVjaWF0ZSBpdCBhIApsb3QgaWYgeW91IGNvdWxkIGhl bHAgbWUgaW4gZG9pbmcgc28sIHNpbmNlIEkgd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byBjaGVjayAKYW5kIHdyaXRl IG15IGNvbGxlZ2UgZW1haWxzIGluIEJyYWlsbGUuIFRoYW5rcyBhbmQgR29kIGJsZXNzISEKLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0gbmV4dCBwYXJ0IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tCkEgbm9uLXRleHQgYXR0YWNobWVu dCB3YXMgc2NydWJiZWQuLi4KTmFtZTogd2xFbW90aWNvbi1zbWlsZVsxXS5wbmcKVHlwZTogYXBw bGljYXRpb24vb2N0ZXQtc3RyZWFtClNpemU6IDEwNDkgYnl0ZXMKRGVzYzogbm90IGF2YWlsYWJs ZQpVUkw6IDxodHRwOi8vbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9waXBlcm1haWwvbmFicy1sX25mYm5ldC5vcmcvYXR0 YWNobWVudHMvMjAxMzExMjQvN2RjMWU5ODcvYXR0YWNobWVudC5hPgotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLSBu ZXh0IHBhcnQgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0KQSBub24tdGV4dCBhdHRhY2htZW50IHdhcyBzY3J1YmJl ZC4uLgpOYW1lOiBhdHRhY2htZW50ClR5cGU6IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uL29jdGV0LXN0cmVhbQpTaXpl OiAzMDQgYnl0ZXMKRGVzYzogbm90IGF2YWlsYWJsZQpVUkw6IDxodHRwOi8vbmZibmV0Lm9yZy9w aXBlcm1haWwvbmFicy1sX25mYm5ldC5vcmcvYXR0YWNobWVudHMvMjAxMzExMjQvN2RjMWU5ODcv YXR0YWNobWVudC0wMDAxLmE+Cg== From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Nov 24 19:06:47 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:06:47 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] voice over quick guide Message-ID: I wanted to try to read my books using voiceover. Is there a quick getting started guide? I don't have time to learn all the ins and outs. I just want to be able to read a pdf in preview once I find the paragraph I want. Thank you From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 19:19:14 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 14:19:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] voice over quick guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11F395C8-14A9-4688-9B7A-17354AEAF532@gmail.com> MacBook or iOS device? Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > I wanted to try to read my books using voiceover. Is there a quick getting > started guide? I don't have time to learn all the ins and outs. I just want > to be able to read a pdf in preview once I find the paragraph I want. > > Thank you > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Nov 24 19:24:45 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:24:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] voice over quick guide In-Reply-To: <11F395C8-14A9-4688-9B7A-17354AEAF532@gmail.com> References: <11F395C8-14A9-4688-9B7A-17354AEAF532@gmail.com> Message-ID: macbook running mavericks I know they have a tutorial you can go through but I don't have time to go through all that until break so I am looking for maybe just a list of commands and On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Jewel wrote: > MacBook or iOS device? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > > > I wanted to try to read my books using voiceover. Is there a quick > getting > > started guide? I don't have time to learn all the ins and outs. I just > want > > to be able to read a pdf in preview once I find the paragraph I want. > > > > Thank you > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 19:45:57 2013 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 14:45:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] voice over quick guide In-Reply-To: References: <11F395C8-14A9-4688-9B7A-17354AEAF532@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh, and I can't hope you much. I don't know MacBooks very well. Jewel Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > macbook running mavericks > I know they have a tutorial you can go through but I don't have time to go > through all that until break so I am looking for maybe just a list of > commands and > > >> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Jewel wrote: >> >> MacBook or iOS device? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> >>> I wanted to try to read my books using voiceover. Is there a quick >> getting >>> started guide? I don't have time to learn all the ins and outs. I just >> want >>> to be able to read a pdf in preview once I find the paragraph I want. >>> >>> Thank you >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 19:51:35 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 14:51:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] voice over quick guide In-Reply-To: References: <11F395C8-14A9-4688-9B7A-17354AEAF532@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6B72BCAC-976A-4B5F-A41D-2D4395F2A2CA@gmail.com> If I understand what you want correctly, you read a pdf just like you would a normal document, just interact with the text with voice over shift down arrow and turn quick nav off. Guess I should have asked first, do you know how to read just like a plane word document? Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Jewel wrote: > > Oh, and I can't hope you much. I don't know MacBooks very well. > Jewel > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >> >> macbook running mavericks >> I know they have a tutorial you can go through but I don't have time to go >> through all that until break so I am looking for maybe just a list of >> commands and >> >> >>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Jewel wrote: >>> >>> MacBook or iOS device? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> >>>> I wanted to try to read my books using voiceover. Is there a quick >>> getting >>>> started guide? I don't have time to learn all the ins and outs. I just >>> want >>>> to be able to read a pdf in preview once I find the paragraph I want. >>>> >>>> Thank you >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From sgermano at asu.edu Sun Nov 24 19:57:36 2013 From: sgermano at asu.edu (Suzanne Germano) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:57:36 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] voice over quick guide In-Reply-To: <6B72BCAC-976A-4B5F-A41D-2D4395F2A2CA@gmail.com> References: <11F395C8-14A9-4688-9B7A-17354AEAF532@gmail.com> <6B72BCAC-976A-4B5F-A41D-2D4395F2A2CA@gmail.com> Message-ID: No, I have never used voice over at all for reading. I always use zoom. On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: > If I understand what you want correctly, you read a pdf just like you > would a normal document, just interact with the text with voice over shift > down arrow and turn quick nav off. Guess I should have asked first, do you > know how to read just like a plane word document? > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Jewel wrote: > > > > Oh, and I can't hope you much. I don't know MacBooks very well. > > Jewel > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > >> > >> macbook running mavericks > >> I know they have a tutorial you can go through but I don't have time to > go > >> through all that until break so I am looking for maybe just a list of > >> commands and > >> > >> > >>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Jewel > wrote: > >>> > >>> MacBook or iOS device? > >>> > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Suzanne Germano > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I wanted to try to read my books using voiceover. Is there a quick > >>> getting > >>>> started guide? I don't have time to learn all the ins and outs. I just > >>> want > >>>> to be able to read a pdf in preview once I find the paragraph I want. > >>>> > >>>> Thank you > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu > From joshkart12 at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 20:01:01 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:01:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] voice over quick guide In-Reply-To: References: <11F395C8-14A9-4688-9B7A-17354AEAF532@gmail.com> <6B72BCAC-976A-4B5F-A41D-2D4395F2A2CA@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you want I can try to help you off list, If you want just send me an email privately to this address. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > > No, I have never used voice over at all for reading. I always use zoom. > > >> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Josh Gregory wrote: >> >> If I understand what you want correctly, you read a pdf just like you >> would a normal document, just interact with the text with voice over shift >> down arrow and turn quick nav off. Guess I should have asked first, do you >> know how to read just like a plane word document? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Jewel wrote: >>> >>> Oh, and I can't hope you much. I don't know MacBooks very well. >>> Jewel >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>>> >>>> macbook running mavericks >>>> I know they have a tutorial you can go through but I don't have time to >> go >>>> through all that until break so I am looking for maybe just a list of >>>> commands and >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Jewel >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> MacBook or iOS device? >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Suzanne Germano >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I wanted to try to read my books using voiceover. Is there a quick >>>>> getting >>>>>> started guide? I don't have time to learn all the ins and outs. I just >>>>> want >>>>>> to be able to read a pdf in preview once I find the paragraph I want. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Sun Nov 24 20:27:19 2013 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:27:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] voice over quick guide In-Reply-To: References: <11F395C8-14A9-4688-9B7A-17354AEAF532@gmail.com> Message-ID: <88C2A9DF-ED3F-4268-B3B9-92850DFF9D5A@gmail.com> The built in VO tutorial is pretty short and does cover the basics nicely. You access that with Ctrl+Option+Command+F8. The command that will be most helpful in reading is read all: Ctrl+Option+A. On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: > macbook running mavericks > I know they have a tutorial you can go through but I don't have time to go > through all that until break so I am looking for maybe just a list of > commands and > > > On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Jewel wrote: > >> MacBook or iOS device? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 24, 2013, at 2:06 PM, Suzanne Germano wrote: >>> >>> I wanted to try to read my books using voiceover. Is there a quick >> getting >>> started guide? I don't have time to learn all the ins and outs. I just >> want >>> to be able to read a pdf in preview once I find the paragraph I want. >>> >>> Thank you >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40asu.edu >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Mon Nov 25 01:41:54 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 18:41:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessible Survey Platforms In-Reply-To: References: <01e801cee716$a30c4470$e924cd50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: You could always sign up for a monthly subscription with Survey Monkey and then just end your subscription when you are done with your survey instead of paying the subscription fee for a whole year. SurveyMonkey is a good professional survey platform and is very accessible. Best, Arielle On 11/22/13, Katie Wang wrote: > Hi Joe, > > Survey Monkey is accessible and quite powerful, but I believe that it > charges an annual subscription fee if you want to create a survey with > more than 10 questions. Other than that, I'm afraid that I don't have > any good solutions to suggest - My school uses Qualtrics, but it is > pretty much completely inaccessible so I have to work with a research > assistant while constructing surveys. > > Katie > > > On 11/21/13, Joe wrote: >> Hello, >> >> >> >> Can anyone, especially those graduate students who run surveys for their >> studies, recommend a good survey tool accessible to screen readers?The >> tool >> should allow for as many questions as I need, and if possible, I'd like >> questions to automatically adjust according to predefined criteria. For >> example, if X response, then Y Question will populate the next screen. If >> you have any ideas, I'd love your assistance at your earliest >> convenience. >> Thanks much in advance. >> >> >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From helga.schreiber at hotmail.com Mon Nov 25 03:34:53 2013 From: helga.schreiber at hotmail.com (Helga Schreiber) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:34:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] How To connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone 5 In-Reply-To: <52923470.a2c6ec0a.09dc.ffffb254@mx.google.com> References: <52923470.a2c6ec0a.09dc.ffffb254@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Hi Sophie, this is Helga. Thanks for giving me those steps. I just wanted to tell you that I folowed all the steps regarding the BrailleNote Apex, and they work fine, but when I get to the iPhone, it recognizes my BrailleNote device, but it says no connected, and when I double tap on it, voiceover tells me make sure that yor BrailleNote is on and Irange. I don't really know what is wrong! with it. Do you know something about this? By the way, just to let you know, the first time I tried connecting my BrailleNote my voiceover said BrailleNote Apex not pair, and then I double tap on it, and then it said pairing, and then it took me to type the ping, and after trying many times it didn't work, so that is when voiceover told me not connecting. I will really appreciate it a lot if you could help me with this situation. Also, if you know someone who knows about this as well that will be great as well? Thanks for listening to me. God bless! :) -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How To connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone 5 Helga, here are the steps to connect a braillenote to an iPhone. 1. On the braillenote, go to the options menu. 2. Go to the connectivity menu. 3. Press B for bluetooth. Make sure bluetooth is turned on. 4. When the braillenote says, "Search for devices," DO NOT press Y for yes. Instead, exit to the main menu and press T for braille terminal. Make sure the braille terminal port is bluetooth, not USB. 5. On the iPhone, go to settings/general/accessability/VoiceOver. Flick right until you see Braille. Then go to Choose a Braille Device. The iPhone should find your braillenote. When it asks for a pin, type 0000 really fast because it's on a time limit. Then, press the pair button and you should be good to go. I don't know if you can have more than one device connected to the iPhone at the same time. I hope this helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helga Schreiber" References: <52923470.a2c6ec0a.09dc.ffffb254@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8893E77F-8D21-4EEB-B48B-FC24136447EA@gmail.com> Hello, I'm not Sophie, but you might want to try restarting the phone and then repairing it. The pin is four zeros, you have to type them in quickly in succession, it doesn't give you very long to do this. Perhaps 30 seconds or so… If you do it correctly, and managed to tap The pair button in time, you will hear a little beep sound from the phone and braille should start to show up on the display of the apex. Provided all this works, whenever you want to use the apex with the phone, all you need do is make sure Bluetooth is on and that you are in Bluetooth mode in the braille terminal, then lock and unlock the phone and braille should then show up. Hope all of this makes sense and should you require any further assistance, please feel free to ask. Thanks, Josh Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 24, 2013, at 10:34 PM, "Helga Schreiber" wrote: > > Hi Sophie, this is Helga. Thanks for giving me those steps. I just wanted to tell you that I folowed all the steps regarding the BrailleNote Apex, and they work fine, but when I get to the iPhone, it recognizes my BrailleNote device, but it says no connected, and when I double tap on it, voiceover tells me make sure that yor BrailleNote is on and Irange. I don't really know what is wrong! with it. Do you know something about this? By the way, just to let you know, the first time I tried connecting my BrailleNote my voiceover said BrailleNote Apex not pair, and then I double tap on it, and then it said pairing, and then it took me to type the ping, and after trying many times it didn't work, so that is when voiceover told me not connecting. I will really appreciate it a lot if you could help me with this situation. Also, if you know someone who knows about this as well that will be great as well? Thanks for listening to me. God bless! :) > > -----Original Message----- From: Sophie Trist > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 12:15 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] How To connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone 5 > > Helga, here are the steps to connect a braillenote to an iPhone. > 1. On the braillenote, go to the options menu. > 2. Go to the connectivity menu. > 3. Press B for bluetooth. Make sure bluetooth is turned on. > 4. When the braillenote says, "Search for devices," DO NOT press > Y for yes. Instead, exit to the main menu and press T for braille > terminal. Make sure the braille terminal port is bluetooth, not > USB. > 5. On the iPhone, go to settings/general/accessability/VoiceOver. > Flick right until you see Braille. Then go to Choose a Braille > Device. The iPhone should find your braillenote. When it asks for > a pin, type 0000 really fast because it's on a time limit. Then, > press the pair button and you should be good to go. > > I don't know if you can have more than one device connected to > the iPhone at the same time. I hope this helps. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helga Schreiber" To: Date sent: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:47:49 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] How To connect my BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone > 5 > > Hi guys, this is Helga. What?셲 up? I?셫 currently using my > iPhone 5 in order to check emails, and write them, and I already > have my bluetooth keyboard connected to it, but I would like to > have my BrailleNote Apex connected to my iPhone. I really don?셳 > know how to do that. Do you guys know how to do that, and what > are the steps in doing so? Also, do you think I could connect my > BrailleNote Apex to my iPhone even though my Bluetooth Keyboard > is connected to it? Just curious! I will really appreciate it a > lot if you could help me in doing so, since I would like to check > and write my college emails in Braille. Thanks and God bless!! > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/helga.schreiber%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From dburke at cocenter.org Mon Nov 25 16:49:29 2013 From: dburke at cocenter.org (Dan Burke) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:49:29 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] In class assignments and pop quizzes Message-ID: The strongest argument in favor of getting the appropriate format in class is that it is pedagogically unsound to have you do the quiz or assignment alone while your classmates benefit from shared learning. That creates an unequal benefit. Surely there enough situations that come up where it can't be avoided, but this one can easily be managed. Talk to the DS office to see if they can help you work it out. Dan Burke Academic and Youth Services Colorado Center for the Blind Take charge with confidence and self-reliance www.cocenter.org facebook.com/coloradocenterfortheblind @CoCenter4Blind www.youtube.com/user/cocenterorg 2233 W. Shepperd Ave. Littleton, CO  80120 303-778-1130 ext. 213 Fax: 303-778-1598 -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sophie Trist Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 3:24 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In class assignments and popquizzes Suzanne, I don't believe that what your professor is doing is fair to you. Besides the loss of peer and professor interaction, you lose valuable time in class. This causes you to have more to do at home than your fellow classmates. I know that extra homework is sometimes a necessary evil, but in this case, it can be avoided so easily. I don't see why your professor can't either print it out in large print or provide you with an electronic copy. These are just my thoughts. ----- Original Message ----- From: Suzanne Germano wrote: I do tests in two ways. It it is a scheduled test, I get it sent to the disability office to be made sure it is completely accessible, including language settings, tables, alt tags for graphics. I don't usually use double time unless there are many tactile images, like there were in Biology, or I have to read it in Braille, like for mathematics, since I am a slow Braille reader. Doing the test in the disability office ensures that I have someone available if there are problems. I schedule to take the test at the same time as everyone else unless I mean double time. If it is a pop quiz, the professor puts his or her digital copy of the quiz on a flash drive that I provide. The professors know from the beginning of the semester that this is how we will do it, so they have the digital copy ready. I put the flash drive in my laptop, put my answers in the digital copy, then turn in the flash drive when the other student's turn in their tests. The professor moves the file to their computer and returns the flash drive by the end of class. They can then print it or grade it in the digital file, and give me the graded paper or file. If they grade it digitally, they usually email it to me. I prefer this to cut back on the paper I have to keep up with. I hope this method makes sense to you and it helps you figure out the best method for yourself. Also, I use JAWS to do this, though for language class I sometimes use my refreshable Braille display so I can see accents and spelling. -Jewel Sent from my iPhone On Sep 3, 2013, at 9:48 AM, Suzanne Germano wrote: I have two course that at least weekly if no every lecture have in class quizzes or assignments. These are open book ,open notes, talk with other students, ask professor questions... How do you handle these. For example, are they provided to you in large print, braille, electronic? What if you are someone use uses extended time on things like tests? What about the access to books? At home I use the print book with my cctv so I can flip to index then flip to page. This is not the same with the pdf. Also my monitor at home is 27 inches vs 17 on my laptop so I am much faster on the large monitor. I have always been a print reader and do not do well at all with audio. Since my vision is stable there was never a need to not use large print or cctv. I also find it difficult to work with other students since I can't see their work and even when I say I am legally blind or visually impaired and ask if they can write bigger, they still write in their normal size which is too small and with very like pencil. What are your techniques? Do you do it in class with an accessible format? Do you take it home and return it next class? When I went to school years ago 1980s-1990s they did not do all this in class stuff. Thanks Suzanne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2 %40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sgermano%40as u.edu _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sweetpeareade r%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dburke%40cocenter.org From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Mon Nov 25 20:36:38 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:36:38 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] 2013 Fall NABS Update Message-ID: The National Association of Blind Students is excited to bring to you an update on the recent happenings of your fellow blind students. These are updates from across the country of students who are organized and unified in the mission of changing what it means to be blind. We encourage you to contact the student division in your state as well as become involved in the work of NABS via it’s committees such as Student Slate, Fundraising, membership and Communications. >From the NABS fundraising committee: The fundraising committee invites you to be a part of the important work of it’s committee. The committee is currently planning for an exciting Washington seminar, and needs your help in order to make it a success! Please contact Candice Chapman: chapman.candicel at gmail.com or Cindy Bennett:clb5590 at gmail.com. They are your committee Co-Chairs, and they are happy to have you! From Illinois: At our convention last month, Brianna (Bree) Lillyman was elected president of the division. In other news, IABS is happy to report that our t-shirt fundraiser went really well, and the mentoring program was a big success. We are looking forward to planning a student seminar in Chicago in April.  Rose Sloan. >From Ohio Our convention was held November 1st-3rd in Dayton Ohio. The student division held elections on Saturday the 2nd at our annual business meeting. The following officers were elected: Kaiti Shelton, President; Aleeha Dudley, Vice President; Lillie Pennington, Secretary; and Abby Bolling, Treasurer. We are still working out some leadership things, and may amend our constitution to change corresponding secretary from an appointed position to an officer position, and change the “secretary” to Recording Secretary. We are also going to elect board members to comply with our constitution, which OABS has not had for some time. I am excited that we are on our way to having a complete board of directors to spearhead the organization. In addition to the board members, several committees have been set up including Fundraising chaired by Emily Pennington, Membership chaired by Aleeha Dudley, and Social Media chaired by Amber Meloy. We have also appointed one of our newest members who is working on a masters degree in English to serve as editor and to spearhead efforts to create the first OABS newsletters. Our Social media chair and Corresponding Secretary is in the process of setting up a web site, and Emily Pennington is heading up our first long-term fundraiser, which will be beautifully designed braille bookmarks. One side of the bookmark will show Whozit and the braille alphabet with the words, “The Ohio Association of Blind Students,” and “NFB”. The other side of the bookmark will contain a short explanation of braille, along with a message for sighted readers to crack. The message will be, “Seeing occurs in the mind.” We’re beginning to network more than before, with a partnership between the Ohio student and parents of blind children divisions quickly forming. Our affiliate is happy to see the growth of the student division, and sees us as the next group of Ohio federation leaders. It’s been quite some time since Ohio had a booming student division, so the older federationists are glad to see some new blood around convention and on conference calls. Our group is eager to grow, and efforts are already being made to expand and recruit more members. Another milestone Is that we now have two prospective members from Cleveland in northern Ohio, after having no one outside of Cincinnati and Dayton for the past two years. Kaiti Shelton >From Indiana: “An update from the Indiana Association of Blind Students: a new president was recently selected at the NFB of Indiana state convention in October, Christopher Meyer, studying in Indianapolis, IN. Christopher is an undergraduate public affairs student in public and nonprofit management at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis (IUPUI) and former graduate from Blindness: Learning In New Dimensions (BLIND), Inc., in Minneapolis, MN. He takes over the post from former student division president Ashley Ritter. A word from student president Meyer: “I’m really glad to step up in this role as young blood for the student division and hope to bring some positive changes. My primary goal this year is to build an organization open to many new members, since our biggest problem currently is a lack of significant involvement by students. I plan to find and develop leaders who can help me in this effort, as well as identify ways we can plan programs that draw participation and attention to what the student division might offer. On a lighter note, we’re kicking around more interesting names like INABS or iNABS, since Illinois has beat us to the simpler IABS. INABS has a certain distinctness to it, does it not?” Minnesota gives a report from their student division elections which took place recently at their state convention: President Vanasha Washington First vice president Hannah furney Second vice president Quint habrol Treasure Candice chapman Secretary Chelsey duranleu >From Virginia: This past year has been a good year for the Virginia Association of Blind Students. On October 25th through the 27th, Virginia held its 55th annual state convention. The student division held a meet and greet on Friday night to kick off the weekend. During this time, students were able to mingle with their peers while engaging in activities. Students were given scenarios by a few mentors, who were successful college students and professionals, regarding the public’s view of blindness. After being given a scenario, the students talked to the mentors about what his/her own reaction would be and whether the student’s response was appropriate or whether he/she should handle the issue in a different manner. If the scenario came from a mentor’s own experience, the mentors explained how he/she handled the situation. On Saturday afternoon, the student division held its yearly business meeting, electing the following new officers: Sarah Patnaude (President), Kimberly Valko (Vice President), Kierra Davis (Treasurer), Vee Gaspa (Secretary), and Chris O’Meally (Board Member). During the luncheon, mentors discussed the importance of going to an adult program at a rehabilitation center and the differences between a state center and a NFB center. The student division board has been working diligently on writing its constitution and is proud to say that the constitution is in the process of being finalized. >From North Carolina: Officers: President: Alan Chase, M.Ed. aachase1 at gmail.com 1st Vice President: Kevin Currin kwcurrin at live.unc.edu 2nd Vice President: Bobbi Pompey Pompey2010 at yahoo.com Treasurer: Eric Galindo ericgal62 at gmail.com Secretary: Travis Sherrill tssherrill at windstream.net Webmaster: Justin drummer060891 at gmail.com What SUP? SUP stands for Students Uniting for Purpose. It was created by Alan Chase, M.Ed., as a way to increase membership, retention, and outreach by bringing students together in smaller geographic regions. They will be feature round table seminars to be held throughout North Carolina in the months of October, January, April and July. 1. Admission is free and lunch will be provided. Please bring $5.00 for lunch. 2. Meet other blind students from around NC who are enrolled in college or working, who are active in sports, involved in their communities, and the leaders of tomorrow. 4. Find answers to all those questions you’ve had about internships, cooking, cleaning, guide dogs, transportation, and much more! NCABS Scholarship The NC Association of Blind Students is in the development phase of creating its own scholarship to help supplement larger sums of financial aid already awarded to blind students in North Carolina. Currently, a committee headed by 1st Vice President Kevin Currin is creating eligibility criteria, drafting applications, and seeking funding for this exciting opportunity. >From Connecticut: The Connecticut Association of Blind Students is proudly beginning its second year. We had a successful fundraiser at our state convention in November, where we sold snack packs. We now have enough money in our treasury to open a bank account and are actively pursuing its establishment. We have amended our constitution to have a first vice president and second vice president instead of just one vice president. We have been holding two conference calls. We Thank the Presidents who contributed by sharing what has taken place in the divisions of wich they lead. We also encourage you to keep on the lookout, we know that you’ve not heard too much from us lately, but this will start to change very soon. Thank you for your support and we wish all of you a very happy thanksgiving! The National Association of Blind Students. From jeffanel at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 18:54:55 2013 From: jeffanel at gmail.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:54:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] job advice Message-ID: Hi all, I had a question. I am 16 and i am looking for a job, now i'm totaly blind, and don't know what jobs are out there that i could do, at this point i would be intrested in any job. thanks -- 73 k8tvv jeff crouch From joshkart12 at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 18:59:46 2013 From: joshkart12 at gmail.com (Josh Gregory) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:59:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] job advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7559173D-EFAD-41BC-92B7-5F148FD66081@gmail.com> This will depend largely on your hobbies and what you like to do, you don't want to do something that you don't really like, you might have to do that at first, but eventually you'll find what you're into and get into that field. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 26, 2013, at 1:54 PM, Jeff Crouch wrote: > > Hi all, > I had a question. > I am 16 and i am looking for a job, now i'm totaly blind, and don't > know what jobs are out there that i could do, at this point i would be > intrested in any job. > > thanks > > -- > 73 > k8tvv > jeff crouch > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 26 19:13:40 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:13:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] job advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8892E8DD33A44D49BF4699534FF6EBFF@OwnerPC> Jeff, Can you provide more info. I assume you are in high school. So your work hours are limited. Are you seeking a job at night after school? Are you seeking a little weekend job? Try to do something you're interested in. What skills do you have? Can you use the Microsoft office suite and databases? You can obviously use the computer since you emailed us. If so, some part time jobs are working customer service, selling tickets at a box office, being one of those survey rep callers, working at mall guest services which basically means you answer people's questions at the desk, and providing office assistance. If you do not want to use a pc and you feel you can teach people, tutoring children or adults is another good part time job; since you yourself are a teen, I recommend tutoring people younger than you which should not be hard to find as kids and nonprofits serving them are numerous. You could also be a babysitter. There are many jobs you can do being totally blind. These are just some ideas that can be done part time since you are a student. Once you decide a career path, I suggest networking with blind professionals in that field. You can do most any white collar professional job provided you have good grades and usually you need a masters degree and you take certification tests. Once that is done and you have internships and references, you can go job hunting. Some jobs I know blind people doing are computer programmer, database manager, lawyer, writer, social worker, and pr professional. There are others, but this is what I've experienced by meeting people in NFB. Oh, and many blind people work in the federal government; this is because they have a target number of people with disabilities to hire. So these are some ideas. With more specifics, we can help you figure out how you can do the job you want to do. Unfortunately, many part time teenage jobs are not accessible, so I can see why you'd wonder what can you do? We cannot be servers, delivery drivers like for Dominos, or in many cases receptionists. These jobs are often filled by teens. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Crouch Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:54 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] job advice Hi all, I had a question. I am 16 and i am looking for a job, now i'm totaly blind, and don't know what jobs are out there that i could do, at this point i would be intrested in any job. thanks -- 73 k8tvv jeff crouch _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 20:26:39 2013 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:26:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Message-ID: Hi Everyone: I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my frustrations. I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the only one going through this. I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my cane and traveling. Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my area I'd be okay. To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen as they were supposed to. I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for another week or so. I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been able to do as much afterwords? Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri From louvins at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 20:52:50 2013 From: louvins at gmail.com (Joshua Hendrickson) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:52:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kerri. I'm sure you aren't the only one who struggles with hearing loss and traveling. For myself, I am going to attend a state run center after getting my associates degree. I'm looking forward to getting my O and M skills more developed. Since there is no transportation or paratransit in my area, I am not able to go places independently. I enjoyed using my cane while at my local community college to get from building to building. It was hard for me for a couple years, to not have people help me get from place to place, but the advantage of being independent is I can go from the library over to the student center to get lunch, or whatever I'd like and not have to ask people for help. At home, I would like to walk the few blocks to the Caseys store and gas station for a pop, or to pick up a pizza, or whatever, but currently I don't have the skills to do this. I have had a lot of o and m people tell me because the way our streets are laid out and the highway that comes before the store, that I would need help to get their safely. I know, that having a severe hearing loss would make it very difficult to hear which way traffic is coming from and when it is safe to cross. I'm glad you were able to graduate from your training course at the NFB center. On 11/26/13, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hi Everyone: > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time > whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to > post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd > post my frustrations. > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the > only one going through this. > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy > using my cane and traveling. > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go > around my area I'd be okay. > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen > as they were supposed to. > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use > my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere > indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting > much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and > crossing streets. > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to > show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and > then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street > from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is > extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted > intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I > arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot > one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and > has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to > try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this > friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental > mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend > can't help me again for another week or so. > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or > more. > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been > able to do as much afterwords? > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to > post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only > one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are > able to get right out there and travel completely independently > without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone > around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just > feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like > with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who > graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to > travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel > frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so > wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle > with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/louvins%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Nov 26 20:53:22 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 15:53:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016E208D0B29451DBB7444C70BF8C428@OwnerPC> Kerri, Calm down. I have fine hearing, but I can identify with the mental mapping issue. I'm hoping to work on skills at some center, but I think I might be a route traveler for the most part. What happens with me is that when I turn around, for instance 3/4 turn, I have trouble relating where one thing is to another. My mental mapping skills are terrible too! I also have a tough time reversing directions, and I cannot describe how frustrating that can be. I got good service from the department for the blind for mobility; my teacher as I grew up was so so traditional and just went through routes; no transferable skills such as intersection analysis or how to read a map were covered. She did not encourage exploration either; just walk the route she told me and find a location was all we did. As an adult, my O&M teacher was more progressive and she believed in blind people. She encouraged discovery learning and exploration; she was not structured discovery though, just that she used elements of discovery learning and guided learning. She encouraged me to ask directions from the public and taught me how to plan routes; she taught me general skills about using the metro system. Well, I got confident from this style of training. Well, here is my point. I also got frustrated about not using my new skills outside of training. I live and still do live with protective parents. Like you, I go travel indoors like the mall, but not outside on city blocks. Do you live with family? if so, its very understandable that you cannot use your skills enough. All I can say is just have people show you routes and then you can go through that yourself. How is the public transit? Why not take the bus to a strip mall area if possible? Then you're working on finding stores from the outside. Can you walk to any neighborhoods where friends live? If so, try this. I think if people show you routes you'll be okay as long as they're descriptive enough. For the parking lot, why not just get help crossing it as you would a street? I sure hope they taught you how to communicate with the public. One way is with cards that inform people what you need. Just practice with friends and then go on your own; also get a home based O&M instructor from your rehab agency. Make the most of what you have. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Hi Everyone: I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my frustrations. I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the only one going through this. I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my cane and traveling. Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my area I'd be okay. To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen as they were supposed to. I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for another week or so. I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been able to do as much afterwords? Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 21:34:58 2013 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:34:58 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: <016E208D0B29451DBB7444C70BF8C428@OwnerPC> References: <016E208D0B29451DBB7444C70BF8C428@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Kerri, It is completely normal to be frustrated after training. I don't think anyone finishes and never has trouble again. I have a lot of issues with my family understanding my sudden not only independence, but persistence on being independent. A lot of students face this. I cannot relate to your situation as I live in a big city and I do not have a hearing loss, but rest assured, I do have to ask for help sometimes, and I sometimes get a friend to show me some things. For example, I recently had a job interview in a giant store. So I asked a friend to show me around the store and explain the layout so when I went in for the interview, I knew where to go. The goal of structure discovery training is to choose your travel path and to give you more freedom, and to travel like a sighted person who is taught to read maps and not to be intimidated by alternate routes. However, when I moved to Seattle, I did ask for our rehab agency to have an O&M instructor show me some things on the campus that I work. I agree that I could have asked a friend, but at this time, I was very new to town and did not know anyone. Also, I had the opportunity to have someone show me around and the agency picked up the bill whereas, I would have taken the risk of asking a sighted person and not being sure of their ability to describe things and paid them for their time. In saying this though, I was assertive to the O&M instructor of what I wanted to learn. I noticed that she immediately mapped a route for me, but I kind of detracted during the lesson and asked questions and walked around several other places so I could learn alternatives. Similarly, there was one route that was more convenient but through large open spaces and I had to tell her that I wanted to learn that route. I may have not even known that was there if I had just gone with her plan and not asked questions about my surroundings. So I think that taking advantage of agency-sponsored O&M can really help one to get some initial orientation, but if you want to use structure discovery, you might have to be more assertive during the lesson and tell the instructor how and what you want to learn. All that being said, I think that forming routes is pretty typical. I go to work the same way each day. I think the problem arises when you are not equipped with the skills to take an alternate route if necessary or if your skills are such that the only route you know is out of the way and takes significantly more time. There are definitely times when I avoid a busy intersection by going to the next block, but if there was no other option for a few blocks, I would just cross the street at the busy intersection. So it is all a balance, and independence is a continuum that is different for each person and even fluctuates with each person. Training gives you a foundation of skills, and I certainly understand why you are frustrated, but I know that you are not the only one. I really appreciate that you have the courage to ask such questions and to be open to such frustrations. It seems like a healthy way of dealing with them. I hope that you find ways to get more opportunities to travel, because it seems that it really makes you happy. I am not sure of your situation and feel that it would be ignorant to say things like, why don't you move to a big city, or something, but I think that if you are not satisfied with your current ability to use the skills that you learned at LCB, brainstorm some possibilities of how you could improve that situation and what is preventing you from improving the situation. This might help you figure out if there are things you can change in your current living situation or what needs to happen for you to change your living situation, or if that is something you can do at all. Cindy On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > Kerri, > > Calm down. I have fine hearing, but I can identify with the mental mapping > > issue. > I'm hoping to work on skills at some center, but I think I might be a route > > traveler for the most part. What happens with me is that when I turn around, > > for instance 3/4 turn, I have trouble relating where one thing is to > another. My mental mapping skills are terrible too! > I also have a tough time reversing directions, and I cannot describe how > frustrating that can be. > I got good service from the department for the blind for mobility; my > teacher as I grew up was so so traditional and just went through routes; no > > transferable skills such as intersection analysis or how to read a map were > > covered. > She did not encourage exploration either; just walk the route she told me > and find a location was all we did. > As an adult, my O&M teacher was more progressive and she believed in blind > > people. She encouraged discovery learning and exploration; she was not > structured discovery though, just that she used elements of discovery > learning and guided learning. > She encouraged me to ask directions from the public and taught me how to > plan routes; she taught me general skills about using the metro system. > Well, I got confident from this style of training. Well, here is my point. I > > also got frustrated about not using my new skills outside of training. > I live and still do live with protective parents. > Like you, I go travel indoors like the mall, but not outside on city > blocks. > > Do you live with family? if so, its very understandable that you cannot use > > your skills enough. > All I can say is just have people show you routes and then you can go > through that yourself. > How is the public transit? Why not take the bus to a strip mall area if > possible? Then you're working on finding stores from the outside. > Can you walk to any neighborhoods where friends live? If so, try this. > > > I think if people show you routes you'll be okay as long as they're > descriptive enough. > For the parking lot, why not just get help crossing it as you would a > street? > I sure hope they taught you how to communicate with the public. One way is > > with cards that inform people what you need. > Just practice with friends and then go on your own; also get a home based > O&M instructor from your rehab agency. > > > Make the most of what you have. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Kerri Kosten > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > Hi Everyone: > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time > whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to > post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd > post my frustrations. > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the > only one going through this. > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy > using my cane and traveling. > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go > around my area I'd be okay. > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen > as they were supposed to. > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use > my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere > indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting > much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and > crossing streets. > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to > show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and > then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street > from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is > extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted > intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I > arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot > one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and > has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to > try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this > friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental > mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend > can't help me again for another week or so. > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or > more. > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been > able to do as much afterwords? > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to > post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only > one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are > able to get right out there and travel completely independently > without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone > around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just > feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like > with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who > graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to > travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel > frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so > wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle > with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com > -- Cindy Bennett Secretary: National Association of Blind Students B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington clb5590 at gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 21:46:54 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:46:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] job advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0146B476-A915-427B-BBF4-7A89FA59647C@gmail.com> Does your school have a book store or concession counter? You could get a job through your school working in the bookstore, selling snacks in the lunch room or working the concession stand at sporting events. The mall is another great place to look for work. You can work at a food counter, a movie theater, or in some retail outlets that hire teens. If you're confident with technology you can look for a job at a computer store like best buy, or a smart phone retailer. Tutoring is another option. You can tutor kids, or adults. My boyfriend is totally blind, and when he was your age he worked part time for a rehab agency teaching senior citizens how to use their computers. If you're looking for work experience and aren't too concerned about pay, you should also ask your school's guidance councilor to help you find internships in your area of interest. If you do this, though, be sure to tell her you want to hear all your options, and not just the ones she thinks a blind kid is capable of. Tell her to let you worry about how to get the job and do the job. This way you don't miss any opportunities out of ignorance. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 26, 2013, at 11:54 AM, Jeff Crouch wrote: > > Hi all, > I had a question. > I am 16 and i am looking for a job, now i'm totaly blind, and don't > know what jobs are out there that i could do, at this point i would be > intrested in any job. > > thanks > > -- > 73 > k8tvv > jeff crouch > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From arielle71 at gmail.com Tue Nov 26 23:34:00 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 16:34:00 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: <016E208D0B29451DBB7444C70BF8C428@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Kerri and all, I think that often what we tend to hear from center graduates is a lot of positive stuff, but in reality not everyone has an amazing perfect experience, and all of us come into the center with our own issues, which don't completely disappear by the end of the nine months. I am sure that many many NFB center grads can relate to your situation but you may not necessarily know their stories. For me, going to an NFB center has helped me to focus on true independence, which is getting where you want to go when you want to go there with minimal inconvenience to yourself or others. Sometimes having a sighted guide or taking a taxi somewhere is the most independent solution, and that is fine. The point is that you get to go where you want to with minimal inconvenience to yourself or to another person. If after trying out various solutions, the most convenient one involves getting help of some sort, that is OK. Arielle On 11/26/13, Cindy Bennett wrote: > Hi Kerri, > > It is completely normal to be frustrated after training. I don't think > anyone finishes and never has trouble again. I have a lot of issues > with my family understanding my sudden not only independence, but > persistence on being independent. A lot of students face this. > > I cannot relate to your situation as I live in a big city and I do not > have a hearing loss, but rest assured, I do have to ask for help > sometimes, and I sometimes get a friend to show me some things. For > example, I recently had a job interview in a giant store. So I asked a > friend to show me around the store and explain the layout so when I > went in for the interview, I knew where to go. > > The goal of structure discovery training is to choose your travel path > and to give you more freedom, and to travel like a sighted person who > is taught to read maps and not to be intimidated by alternate routes. > However, when I moved to Seattle, I did ask for our rehab agency to > have an O&M instructor show me some things on the campus that I work. > I agree that I could have asked a friend, but at this time, I was very > new to town and did not know anyone. Also, I had the opportunity to > have someone show me around and the agency picked up the bill whereas, > I would have taken the risk of asking a sighted person and not being > sure of their ability to describe things and paid them for their time. > In saying this though, I was assertive to the O&M instructor of what I > wanted to learn. I noticed that she immediately mapped a route for me, > but I kind of detracted during the lesson and asked questions and > walked around several other places so I could learn alternatives. > Similarly, there was one route that was more convenient but through > large open spaces and I had to tell her that I wanted to learn that > route. I may have not even known that was there if I had just gone > with her plan and not asked questions about my surroundings. So I > think that taking advantage of agency-sponsored O&M can really help > one to get some initial orientation, but if you want to use structure > discovery, you might have to be more assertive during the lesson and > tell the instructor how and what you want to learn. > > All that being said, I think that forming routes is pretty typical. I > go to work the same way each day. I think the problem arises when you > are not equipped with the skills to take an alternate route if > necessary or if your skills are such that the only route you know is > out of the way and takes significantly more time. There are definitely > times when I avoid a busy intersection by going to the next block, but > if there was no other option for a few blocks, I would just cross the > street at the busy intersection. So it is all a balance, and > independence is a continuum that is different for each person and even > fluctuates with each person. > > Training gives you a foundation of skills, and I certainly understand > why you are frustrated, but I know that you are not the only one. > > I really appreciate that you have the courage to ask such questions > and to be open to such frustrations. It seems like a healthy way of > dealing with them. > > I hope that you find ways to get more opportunities to travel, because > it seems that it really makes you happy. I am not sure of your > situation and feel that it would be ignorant to say things like, why > don't you move to a big city, or something, but I think that if you > are not satisfied with your current ability to use the skills that you > learned at LCB, brainstorm some possibilities of how you could improve > that situation and what is preventing you from improving the > situation. This might help you figure out if there are things you can > change in your current living situation or what needs to happen for > you to change your living situation, or if that is something you can > do at all. > > Cindy > > On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> Kerri, >> >> Calm down. I have fine hearing, but I can identify with the mental >> mapping >> >> issue. >> I'm hoping to work on skills at some center, but I think I might be a >> route >> >> traveler for the most part. What happens with me is that when I turn >> around, >> >> for instance 3/4 turn, I have trouble relating where one thing is to >> another. My mental mapping skills are terrible too! >> I also have a tough time reversing directions, and I cannot describe how >> frustrating that can be. >> I got good service from the department for the blind for mobility; my >> teacher as I grew up was so so traditional and just went through routes; >> no >> >> transferable skills such as intersection analysis or how to read a map >> were >> >> covered. >> She did not encourage exploration either; just walk the route she told me >> and find a location was all we did. >> As an adult, my O&M teacher was more progressive and she believed in >> blind >> >> people. She encouraged discovery learning and exploration; she was not >> structured discovery though, just that she used elements of discovery >> learning and guided learning. >> She encouraged me to ask directions from the public and taught me how to >> plan routes; she taught me general skills about using the metro system. >> Well, I got confident from this style of training. Well, here is my point. >> I >> >> also got frustrated about not using my new skills outside of training. >> I live and still do live with protective parents. >> Like you, I go travel indoors like the mall, but not outside on city >> blocks. >> >> Do you live with family? if so, its very understandable that you cannot >> use >> >> your skills enough. >> All I can say is just have people show you routes and then you can go >> through that yourself. >> How is the public transit? Why not take the bus to a strip mall area if >> possible? Then you're working on finding stores from the outside. >> Can you walk to any neighborhoods where friends live? If so, try this. >> >> >> I think if people show you routes you'll be okay as long as they're >> descriptive enough. >> For the parking lot, why not just get help crossing it as you would a >> street? >> I sure hope they taught you how to communicate with the public. One way >> is >> >> with cards that inform people what you need. >> Just practice with friends and then go on your own; also get a home based >> O&M instructor from your rehab agency. >> >> >> Make the most of what you have. >> >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kerri Kosten >> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... >> >> Hi Everyone: >> >> I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time >> whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to >> post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd >> post my frustrations. >> I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the >> only one going through this. >> I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe >> hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and >> such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. >> Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. >> Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I >> really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy >> using my cane and traveling. >> Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great >> at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor >> told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go >> around my area I'd be okay. >> To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen >> as they were supposed to. >> I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use >> my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere >> indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting >> much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and >> crossing streets. >> Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to >> show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and >> then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. >> For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street >> from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is >> extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted >> intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I >> arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot >> one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and >> has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. >> I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to >> try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this >> friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental >> mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend >> can't help me again for another week or so. >> I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille >> compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in >> training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this >> type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or >> more. >> I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? >> I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there >> anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? >> Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been >> able to do as much afterwords? >> Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick >> primarily to someone showing them where something is first? >> Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show >> them where things are? If so, what was your experience? >> As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to >> post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel >> frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only >> one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are >> able to get right out there and travel completely independently >> without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone >> around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just >> feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like >> with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are >> limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who >> graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to >> travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel >> frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so >> wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle >> with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. >> Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, >> Kerri >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > Secretary: National Association of Blind Students > > B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington > clb5590 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 27 00:46:54 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 19:46:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kerri, I think Cindy had some excellent points. I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? My response: I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an out of state center. However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing guidance in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how much training I have. To some extent, I think I will be a route traveler for sake of my sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes more time and I feel that going unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. I mean, you have the whole world out there. Sure I'd go out and stroll around if I had the time and knew it was a fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, I'm not going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably follow a route that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For me, I believe route travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking thing. Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go to work or the same store all the time. So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing wrong with that. I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't work I'd ask a mobility instructor. Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If you intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor assist in orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If writing down directions helps you remember it, then either you or the instructor can do that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M instructor can make a map of the area. I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind and vision impaired or DBVI. All instructors but one were fine. I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing up was real route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not analyze intersections. However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of O&M was the frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they have too many to serve to teach you more consistently. Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open to teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside was one of them told me to rely too much on my vision. I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the metro. The instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and gave me a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are on. She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd ask someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color lines alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I would do alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right train and getting off it and out of the station. I also learned more about crossing streets including pressing buttons to activate those pedestrian walk signs. She also oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I was also shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. If you want more info on this, I can explain. So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, and I have used agency O&M instruction. I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a hard skill for you, it will always be that way. But you can still travel, just may need you use other ways. I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said sighted people don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. Sighted people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories than others just as blind people do. Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent miles of space on paper. They also see signs. Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. They might go out and find it if they know the general area and then read numbers to locate a specific address. My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so she knows where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they certainly use some guidance. Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also sighted and blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone showing you where building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn directions. Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just take off and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use tools to help them out too. How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can move soon to be more independent. Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on yourself. You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You might be able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off somewhere like a strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions clubs; then take your driver out to lunch or something as payment. Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know cabs are expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I was at college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro station and from there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. When I came home, I missed the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus stop as it’s a dangerous busy road with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so you can practice your skills. HTH, Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Hi Everyone: I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my frustrations. I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the only one going through this. I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my cane and traveling. Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my area I'd be okay. To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen as they were supposed to. I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for another week or so. I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been able to do as much afterwords? Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 01:03:30 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 20:03:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the side trails just in case I get entangled or a little off the path so that I know what happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Kerri, I think Cindy had some excellent points. I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? My response: I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an out of state center. However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing guidance in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how much training I have. To some extent, I think I will be a route traveler for sake of my sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes more time and I feel that going unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. I mean, you have the whole world out there. Sure I'd go out and stroll around if I had the time and knew it was a fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, I'm not going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably follow a route that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For me, I believe route travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking thing. Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go to work or the same store all the time. So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing wrong with that. I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't work I'd ask a mobility instructor. Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If you intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor assist in orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If writing down directions helps you remember it, then either you or the instructor can do that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M instructor can make a map of the area. I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind and vision impaired or DBVI. All instructors but one were fine. I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing up was real route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not analyze intersections. However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of O&M was the frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they have too many to serve to teach you more consistently. Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open to teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside was one of them told me to rely too much on my vision. I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the metro. The instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and gave me a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are on. She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd ask someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color lines alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I would do alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right train and getting off it and out of the station. I also learned more about crossing streets including pressing buttons to activate those pedestrian walk signs. She also oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I was also shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. If you want more info on this, I can explain. So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, and I have used agency O&M instruction. I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a hard skill for you, it will always be that way. But you can still travel, just may need you use other ways. I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said sighted people don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. Sighted people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories than others just as blind people do. Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent miles of space on paper. They also see signs. Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. They might go out and find it if they know the general area and then read numbers to locate a specific address. My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so she knows where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they certainly use some guidance. Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also sighted and blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone showing you where building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn directions. Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just take off and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use tools to help them out too. How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can move soon to be more independent. Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on yourself. You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You might be able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off somewhere like a strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions clubs; then take your driver out to lunch or something as payment. Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know cabs are expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I was at college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro station and from there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. When I came home, I missed the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus stop as it’s a dangerous busy road with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so you can practice your skills. HTH, Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Hi Everyone: I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my frustrations. I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the only one going through this. I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my cane and traveling. Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my area I'd be okay. To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen as they were supposed to. I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for another week or so. I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been able to do as much afterwords? Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Nov 27 01:12:48 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 20:12:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> References: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> Message-ID: justin, I like to do the same thing. It combines route travel with exploration. Once I know the environment, I'll go a little off course to see what is there. -----Original Message----- From: justin williams Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:03 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the side trails just in case I get entangled or a little off the path so that I know what happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Kerri, I think Cindy had some excellent points. I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? My response: I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an out of state center. However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing guidance in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how much training I have. To some extent, I think I will be a route traveler for sake of my sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes more time and I feel that going unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. I mean, you have the whole world out there. Sure I'd go out and stroll around if I had the time and knew it was a fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, I'm not going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably follow a route that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For me, I believe route travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking thing. Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go to work or the same store all the time. So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing wrong with that. I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't work I'd ask a mobility instructor. Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If you intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor assist in orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If writing down directions helps you remember it, then either you or the instructor can do that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M instructor can make a map of the area. I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind and vision impaired or DBVI. All instructors but one were fine. I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing up was real route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not analyze intersections. However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of O&M was the frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they have too many to serve to teach you more consistently. Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open to teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside was one of them told me to rely too much on my vision. I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the metro. The instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and gave me a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are on. She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd ask someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color lines alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I would do alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right train and getting off it and out of the station. I also learned more about crossing streets including pressing buttons to activate those pedestrian walk signs. She also oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I was also shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. If you want more info on this, I can explain. So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, and I have used agency O&M instruction. I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a hard skill for you, it will always be that way. But you can still travel, just may need you use other ways. I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said sighted people don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. Sighted people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories than others just as blind people do. Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent miles of space on paper. They also see signs. Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. They might go out and find it if they know the general area and then read numbers to locate a specific address. My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so she knows where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they certainly use some guidance. Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also sighted and blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone showing you where building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn directions. Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just take off and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use tools to help them out too. How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can move soon to be more independent. Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on yourself. You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You might be able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off somewhere like a strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions clubs; then take your driver out to lunch or something as payment. Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know cabs are expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I was at college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro station and from there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. When I came home, I missed the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus stop as it’s a dangerous busy road with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so you can practice your skills. HTH, Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Hi Everyone: I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my frustrations. I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the only one going through this. I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my cane and traveling. Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my area I'd be okay. To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen as they were supposed to. I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for another week or so. I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been able to do as much afterwords? Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From andrewjedg at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 03:09:30 2013 From: andrewjedg at gmail.com (Andrew) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:09:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi I myself can identify with you a bit. I live in the country with no transit or busses or anything like that I live out in the middle of nowhere. I actually have to count on my family to take me places or somebody to drive me places to take me into town and things. I find that very frusterating as it keeps me from doing all I really would want to do it is not like I can go down a street to a coffee shop. I don't have streets here it is just long gravel roads. I can't really be independent while living in the country. You people in the states are very lucky to have the big training centers Canada does not have that at all. I been considering moving into a big city for these reasons brought out by people on this list. and so I can have a life of my own and things. On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > justin, > I like to do the same thing. It combines route travel with exploration. Once > I know the environment, I'll go a little off course to see what is there. > > -----Original Message----- > From: justin williams > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:03 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the side trails > just in case I get entangled or a little off the path so that I know what > happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Bramlett > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > Kerri, > I think Cindy had some excellent points. > I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them > where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > > My response: > I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an out of > state center. > However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing guidance > in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how much training I > have. To some extent, I think I will be a route traveler for sake of my > sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes more time and I feel that going > unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. I mean, you have the whole world out > there. Sure I'd go out and stroll around if I had the time and knew it was a > fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, I'm not > going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably follow a route > that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For me, I believe route > travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking thing. > > Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go to work > or the same store all the time. > So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing wrong with > that. > I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't work I'd > ask a mobility instructor. > Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If you > intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor assist in > orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If writing down > directions helps you remember it, then either you or the instructor can do > that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M instructor can make a map of the > area. > > I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind and > vision impaired or DBVI. > All instructors but one were fine. > I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing up was real > route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not analyze > intersections. > However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of O&M was the > frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they have > too many to serve to teach you more consistently. > Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open to > teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside was one of > them told me to rely too much on my vision. > I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the metro. The > instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and gave me > a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are on. > She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd ask > someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color lines > alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. > She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I would do > alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right train and getting > off it and out of the station. I also learned more about crossing streets > including pressing buttons to activate those pedestrian walk signs. She also > oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I was also > shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. > If you want more info on this, I can explain. > > So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, and I > have used agency O&M instruction. > I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a hard skill > for you, it will always be that way. But you can still travel, just may need > you use other ways. > > I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said sighted people > don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. Sighted > people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories than others just > as blind people do. > Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent miles > of space on paper. They also see signs. > Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. > They might go out and find it if they know the general area and then read > numbers to locate a specific address. > My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so she knows > where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. > Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. > So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they certainly > use some guidance. > Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also sighted and > blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone showing you where > building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn directions. > Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just take off > and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use tools to help > them out too. > > How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can move > soon to be more independent. > Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on yourself. > You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You might be > able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off somewhere like a > strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions clubs; then take your driver > out to lunch or something as payment. > > Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know cabs are > expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. > It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I was at > college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro station and from > there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. When I came home, I missed > the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus stop as it’s a dangerous busy road > with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. > I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so you can > practice your skills. > HTH, > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kerri Kosten > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > Hi Everyone: > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time whether > to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on > topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my > frustrations. > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the only one > going through this. > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe hearing > loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I > can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really > enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my cane > and traveling. > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at > mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me > when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my > area I'd be okay. > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen as they > were supposed to. > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my > cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere indoors > and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much practice > is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to show me > something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have to > wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street from > me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely > busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without > assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me > cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a > huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the > echos from the building. > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to try to > map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, I was able > to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like I > was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for another week > or so. > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille compass, > and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more > often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for a > day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there anyone > else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been able to > do as much afterwords? > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them > where things are? If so, what was your experience? > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to post > rants, or negative threads, but I just feel frustrated/discouraged sometimes > because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who > graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel > completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them > anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess > sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I > feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who graduates > from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I > guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am > the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation > where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your > cane that much. > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 03:09:44 2013 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:09:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good evening Kerri and all, Kerri, I don't think you have to apologize for your post. Your frustrations with travel is blindness related, and as other have said you are not the only one who struggles. I will not repeat what has already been so eloquently stated, however I would just add every situation is highly individualized. There is not a cookie cutter method of success for all NFB center graduates. What wors best for you is ok. If you use a mobility instructor for orientation, then go for it! I can only empathize with how your hearing loss impacts your travel, so I will not say I understand. You have made it past training. You have goals, and by posting here you are doing something about your frustrations. Remember you are not alone and training is not a magic pill to the bla moments of blindness or hearing loss. -Anjelina Sent from my iPad > On Nov 26, 2013, at 3:26 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > > Hi Everyone: > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time > whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to > post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd > post my frustrations. > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the > only one going through this. > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy > using my cane and traveling. > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go > around my area I'd be okay. > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen > as they were supposed to. > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use > my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere > indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting > much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and > crossing streets. > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to > show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and > then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street > from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is > extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted > intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I > arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot > one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and > has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to > try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this > friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental > mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend > can't help me again for another week or so. > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or > more. > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been > able to do as much afterwords? > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to > post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only > one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are > able to get right out there and travel completely independently > without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone > around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just > feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like > with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who > graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to > travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel > frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so > wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle > with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Nov 27 03:11:01 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 21:11:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [BANA-Announce] BANA Affirms Date for Implementation of UEB Message-ID: > >Press Release > >November 2013 > >For Immediate Release > >CONTACT: Frances Mary D’Andrea, Chair > >Braille Authority of North America > >Phone: 412-521-5797 > >Email: literacy2 at mindspring.com > >BANA Affirms Date for Implementation of UEB > >The Braille Authority of North America (BANA), >at its November 8–10 meeting in Louisville, >Kentucky, affirmed January 4, 2016, as the date >by which the United States will implement the >general use of Unified English Braille (UEB). >This action was based on a year of dialogue and >planning that included the UEB Transition Forum, >held on October 16. The forum, which involved 48 >delegates representing 31 organizations from the >braille community, was structured to help >organizations craft the steps and timetable >through which the United States will make an >effective transition to Unified English Braille. > >The decision to adopt UEB in the United States >was made by a decisive vote of the BANA Board on >November 2, 2012. The full motion is posted on >the BANA website at >http://www.brailleauthority.org/ueb/UEBpassed.html. > > >BANA recognizes that the implementation of UEB >will require major adjustments to the >infrastructures that produce, deliver, and teach >braille, as well as time and strategies for >braille users to become familiar with changes in >the code. BANA continues to work with leaders >throughout the field to build a carefully >designed timeline and coordinated plan. Detailed >timelines are under development by individual >organizations, and transition efforts are now >being initiated. BANA stands ready to >collaborate with the braille community as it >builds and adapts the infrastructure necessary for a smooth transition to UEB. > >NOTE: This press release is available in HTML on >the BANA website at >http://www.brailleauthority.org/pressreleases/pr-2013-11-26.html. > > > >For additional resource information, visit >www.brailleauthority.org. > >The Board of BANA consists of appointed >representatives from seventeen member >organizations of braille producers, transcribers, teachers, and consumers. > >The mission of the Braille Authority of North >America is to assure literacy for tactile >readers through the standardization of braille and/or tactile graphics. > > > >The purpose of BANA is to promote and to >facilitate the uses, teaching, and production of >braille. Pursuant to this purpose, BANA will >promulgate rules, make interpretations, and >render opinions pertaining to braille codes and >guidelines for the provisions of literary and >technical materials and related forms and >formats of embossed materials now in existence >or to be developed in the future for the use of >blind persons in North America. When >appropriate, BANA shall accomplish these >activities in international collaboration with >countries using English braille. In exercising >its function and authority, BANA shall consider >the effects of its decisions on other existing >braille codes and guidelines, forms and formats; >ease of production by various methods; and acceptability to readers. > > > > > From jeffanel at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 04:46:38 2013 From: jeffanel at gmail.com (Jeff Crouch) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:46:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] job advice In-Reply-To: <7559173D-EFAD-41BC-92B7-5F148FD66081@gmail.com> References: <7559173D-EFAD-41BC-92B7-5F148FD66081@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, Well with school, work hours versis school isn't a facter for me because i do online self teaching classes, there for i have pretty much all of my day open. I know bestbuy won't higher. Most of the things that i am running into is liability problems. I am very skilled in computers. The only problem is that sence i live in Flint Michigan, jobs are scairse. I'm just looking for something that will put a little cash in my pocket, at this point, i'd be willing to do anything, i know tech support would be a option, but yet again i'd have to find a place that highers a person under the age of 18. hope this helps. On 11/26/13, Josh Gregory wrote: > This will depend largely on your hobbies and what you like to do, you don't > want to do something that you don't really like, you might have to do that > at first, but eventually you'll find what you're into and get into that > field. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 26, 2013, at 1:54 PM, Jeff Crouch wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> I had a question. >> I am 16 and i am looking for a job, now i'm totaly blind, and don't >> know what jobs are out there that i could do, at this point i would be >> intrested in any job. >> >> thanks >> >> -- >> 73 >> k8tvv >> jeff crouch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com > -- 73 k8tvv jeff crouch From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Nov 27 05:29:37 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 21:29:37 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Justin, To frame your frustration, in terms of your life in Canada is not inclusive of the whole picture, and I imagine you know this. After all, there are rural areas of the US in which blinks tend to languish, in the same way there are probably big cities in Canada which, if relocated too, can offer the opportunity for independence you crave.Do some research. Find yourself a training program situated in a Canadian province in which you wish to live. then, look at training centers as a way to establish residency and, if you find nothing that tickles your fancy, then see about coming to a training center Stateside. There is no reason if you have access to GOOGLE, you need to be languishing in the country with no access to means of exercising free will, if you want it. for today, Car 408-209-3239-08-209-3230 a >Hi I myself can identify with you a bit. I live in the country with >no transit or busses or anything like that I live out in the middle >of nowhere. I actually have to count on my family to take me places >or somebody to drive me places to take me into town and things. I >find that very frusterating as it keeps me from doing all I really >would want to do it is not like I can go down a street to a coffee >shop. I don't have streets here it is just long gravel roads. > > I can't really be independent while living in the country. You >people in the states are very lucky to have the big training centers >Canada does not have that at all. I been considering moving into a >big city for these reasons brought out by people on this list. and so >I can have a life of my own and things. > >On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > > justin, > > I like to do the same thing. It combines route travel with > exploration. Once > > I know the environment, I'll go a little off course to see what is there. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: justin williams > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:03 PM > > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the side trails > > just in case I get entangled or a little off the path so that I know what > > happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Ashley Bramlett > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > Kerri, > > I think Cindy had some excellent points. > > I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. > > > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them > > where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > > > > > My response: > > I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an out of > > state center. > > However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing guidance > > in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how much training I > > have. To some extent, I think I will be a route traveler for sake of my > > sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes more time and I feel that going > > unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. I mean, you have the whole world out > > there. Sure I'd go out and stroll around if I had the time and > knew it was a > > fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, I'm not > > going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably follow a route > > that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For me, I believe route > > travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking thing. > > > > Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go to work > > or the same store all the time. > > So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing wrong with > > that. > > I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't work I'd > > ask a mobility instructor. > > Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If you > > intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor assist in > > orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If writing down > > directions helps you remember it, then either you or the instructor can do > > that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M instructor can make a > map of the > > area. > > > > I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind and > > vision impaired or DBVI. > > All instructors but one were fine. > > I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing > up was real > > route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not analyze > > intersections. > > However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of > O&M was the > > frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they have > > too many to serve to teach you more consistently. > > Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open to > > teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside was one of > > them told me to rely too much on my vision. > > I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the > metro. The > > instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and gave me > > a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are on. > > She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd ask > > someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color lines > > alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. > > She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I would do > > alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right train and getting > > off it and out of the station. I also learned more about crossing streets > > including pressing buttons to activate those pedestrian walk > signs. She also > > oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I was also > > shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. > > If you want more info on this, I can explain. > > > > So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, and I > > have used agency O&M instruction. > > I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a hard skill > > for you, it will always be that way. But you can still travel, > just may need > > you use other ways. > > > > I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said > sighted people > > don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. Sighted > > people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories than others just > > as blind people do. > > Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent miles > > of space on paper. They also see signs. > > Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. > > They might go out and find it if they know the general area and then read > > numbers to locate a specific address. > > My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so she knows > > where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. > > Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. > > So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they certainly > > use some guidance. > > Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also sighted and > > blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone showing you where > > building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn directions. > > Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just take off > > and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use tools to help > > them out too. > > > > How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can move > > soon to be more independent. > > Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on yourself. > > You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You might be > > able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off somewhere like a > > strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions clubs; then take > your driver > > out to lunch or something as payment. > > > > Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know cabs are > > expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. > > It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I was at > > college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro station and from > > there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. When I came home, I missed > > the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus stop as it's a > dangerous busy road > > with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. > > I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so you can > > practice your skills. > > HTH, > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kerri Kosten > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long > time whether > > to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on > > topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my > > frustrations. > > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am > the only one > > going through this. > > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe hearing > > loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I > > can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really > > enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my cane > > and traveling. > > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at > > mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me > > when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my > > area I'd be okay. > > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't > happen as they > > were supposed to. > > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my > > cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere indoors > > and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much practice > > is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. > > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone > to show me > > something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have to > > wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street from > > me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely > > busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without > > assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me > > cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a > > huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the > > echos from the building. > > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General > just to try to > > map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, > I was able > > to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like I > > was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for > another week > > or so. > > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille compass, > > and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more > > often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for a > > day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. > > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there anyone > > else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really > been able to > > do as much afterwords? > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them > > where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to post > > rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > frustrated/discouraged sometimes > > because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who > > graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel > > completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them > > anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess > > sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I > > feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are > > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who graduates > > from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I > > guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am > > the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation > > where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your > > cane that much. > > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Nov 27 06:30:52 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 22:30:52 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Evening, Kerri, Your post did speak to me for a reason that, I became brain damaged 10 years ago before attending a training center here in the San Francisco Bay Area. A feature of brain damage, for me, has been unreliable street crossings and short term memory problems so, I cannot retrace my steps or know how many city blocks I have traveled. For me, this wasn't cutting it for too long. My partner happens to be a budding teacher of the visually impaired and, for us, It just isn't practical trying to get our schedules to jive, so I have figured out traveling "Turkey" style, after learning from some friends who worked in Turkey about getting people on the street to help you travel.. So, like when I need to cross streets or figure out where I currently am, or simple features of the rout, I just grab someone happening to be in the vicinity. I grab their shoulder, asking them the information I am after. Now, I realize people may get up in arms, but for me, it works like a charm. And, you hear blinks, all the time say, part of what makes them a strategic traveler is, knowing when to recruit ol' Sighty's help... for today, Car 408=-209-3239 PM 11/26/2013, Anjelina wrote: >Good evening Kerri and all, >Kerri, I don't think you have to apologize for your post. Your >frustrations with travel is blindness related, and as other have >said you are not the only one who struggles. I will not repeat what >has already been so eloquently stated, however I would just add >every situation is highly individualized. There is not a cookie >cutter method of success for all NFB center graduates. What wors >best for you is ok. If you use a mobility instructor for >orientation, then go for it! >I can only empathize with how your hearing loss impacts your travel, >so I will not say I understand. You have made it past training. You >have goals, and by posting here you are doing something about your >frustrations. Remember you are not alone and training is not a magic >pill to the bla moments of blindness or hearing loss. > > > >-Anjelina >Sent from my iPad > > > On Nov 26, 2013, at 3:26 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time > > whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to > > post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd > > post my frustrations. > > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the > > only one going through this. > > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe > > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and > > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I > > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy > > using my cane and traveling. > > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great > > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor > > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go > > around my area I'd be okay. > > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen > > as they were supposed to. > > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use > > my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere > > indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting > > much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and > > crossing streets. > > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to > > show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and > > then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street > > from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is > > extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted > > intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I > > arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot > > one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and > > has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. > > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to > > try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this > > friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental > > mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend > > can't help me again for another week or so. > > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille > > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in > > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this > > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or > > more. > > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there > > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been > > able to do as much afterwords? > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to > > post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > > frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only > > one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are > > able to get right out there and travel completely independently > > without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone > > around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just > > feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like > > with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are > > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who > > graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to > > travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel > > frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so > > wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle > > with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. > > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, > > Kerri > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 07:03:04 2013 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina Cruz) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 02:03:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: <529591c7.4950e00a.752e.ffffb922SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <529591c7.4950e00a.752e.ffffb922SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Good morning Carly, I like your can-do attitude! Even though your methods of seeking out information may be seen as unconventional for some, it works for you and you are still able to accomplish what you want! This is how I define independence. On 11/27/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Evening, Kerri, > > Your post did speak to me for a reason that, I became brain > damaged 10 years ago before attending a training center here in the > San Francisco Bay Area. A feature of brain damage, for me, has been > unreliable street crossings and short term memory problems so, I > cannot retrace my steps or know how many city blocks I have traveled. > For me, this wasn't cutting it for too long. My partner happens to be > a budding teacher of the visually impaired and, for us, It just isn't > practical trying to get our schedules to jive, so I have figured out > traveling "Turkey" style, after learning from some friends who worked > in Turkey about getting people on the street to help you travel.. So, > like when I need to cross streets or figure out where I currently am, > or simple features of the rout, I just grab someone happening to be > in the vicinity. I grab their shoulder, asking them the information I > am after. Now, I realize people may get up in arms, but for me, it > works like a charm. > And, you hear blinks, all the time say, part of what makes them a > strategic traveler is, knowing when to recruit ol' Sighty's help... > for today, Car > 408=-209-3239 > > PM 11/26/2013, Anjelina wrote: >>Good evening Kerri and all, >>Kerri, I don't think you have to apologize for your post. Your >>frustrations with travel is blindness related, and as other have >>said you are not the only one who struggles. I will not repeat what >>has already been so eloquently stated, however I would just add >>every situation is highly individualized. There is not a cookie >>cutter method of success for all NFB center graduates. What wors >>best for you is ok. If you use a mobility instructor for >>orientation, then go for it! >>I can only empathize with how your hearing loss impacts your travel, >>so I will not say I understand. You have made it past training. You >>have goals, and by posting here you are doing something about your >>frustrations. Remember you are not alone and training is not a magic >>pill to the bla moments of blindness or hearing loss. >> >> >> >>-Anjelina >>Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Nov 26, 2013, at 3:26 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> > >> > Hi Everyone: >> > >> > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time >> > whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to >> > post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd >> > post my frustrations. >> > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the >> > only one going through this. >> > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe >> > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and >> > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. >> > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. >> > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I >> > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy >> > using my cane and traveling. >> > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great >> > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor >> > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go >> > around my area I'd be okay. >> > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen >> > as they were supposed to. >> > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use >> > my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere >> > indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting >> > much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and >> > crossing streets. >> > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to >> > show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and >> > then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. >> > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street >> > from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is >> > extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted >> > intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I >> > arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot >> > one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and >> > has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. >> > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to >> > try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this >> > friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental >> > mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend >> > can't help me again for another week or so. >> > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille >> > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in >> > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this >> > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or >> > more. >> > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? >> > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there >> > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? >> > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been >> > able to do as much afterwords? >> > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick >> > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? >> > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show >> > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? >> > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to >> > post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel >> > frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only >> > one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are >> > able to get right out there and travel completely independently >> > without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone >> > around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just >> > feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like >> > with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are >> > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who >> > graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to >> > travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel >> > frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so >> > wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle >> > with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. >> > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, >> > Kerri >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > -- Anjelina From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Nov 27 07:08:50 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 23:08:50 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: <529591c7.4950e00a.752e.ffffb922SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: It's alll in getting done what you need to get done, at a minal risk, githt? In the end, it's the ends that ought count, not the means? for today, Car 408-209-3239 t 11:03 PM 11/26/2013, Anjelina Cruz wrote: >Good morning Carly, >I like your can-do attitude! Even though your methods of seeking out >information may be seen as unconventional for some, it works for you >and you are still able to accomplish what you want! This is how I >define independence. > >On 11/27/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > > > > Evening, Kerri, > > > > Your post did speak to me for a reason that, I became brain > > damaged 10 years ago before attending a training center here in the > > San Francisco Bay Area. A feature of brain damage, for me, has been > > unreliable street crossings and short term memory problems so, I > > cannot retrace my steps or know how many city blocks I have traveled. > > For me, this wasn't cutting it for too long. My partner happens to be > > a budding teacher of the visually impaired and, for us, It just isn't > > practical trying to get our schedules to jive, so I have figured out > > traveling "Turkey" style, after learning from some friends who worked > > in Turkey about getting people on the street to help you travel.. So, > > like when I need to cross streets or figure out where I currently am, > > or simple features of the rout, I just grab someone happening to be > > in the vicinity. I grab their shoulder, asking them the information I > > am after. Now, I realize people may get up in arms, but for me, it > > works like a charm. > > And, you hear blinks, all the time say, part of what makes them a > > strategic traveler is, knowing when to recruit ol' Sighty's help... > > for today, Car > > 408=-209-3239 > > > > PM 11/26/2013, Anjelina wrote: > >>Good evening Kerri and all, > >>Kerri, I don't think you have to apologize for your post. Your > >>frustrations with travel is blindness related, and as other have > >>said you are not the only one who struggles. I will not repeat what > >>has already been so eloquently stated, however I would just add > >>every situation is highly individualized. There is not a cookie > >>cutter method of success for all NFB center graduates. What wors > >>best for you is ok. If you use a mobility instructor for > >>orientation, then go for it! > >>I can only empathize with how your hearing loss impacts your travel, > >>so I will not say I understand. You have made it past training. You > >>have goals, and by posting here you are doing something about your > >>frustrations. Remember you are not alone and training is not a magic > >>pill to the bla moments of blindness or hearing loss. > >> > >> > >> > >>-Anjelina > >>Sent from my iPad > >> > >> > On Nov 26, 2013, at 3:26 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Everyone: > >> > > >> > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time > >> > whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to > >> > post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd > >> > post my frustrations. > >> > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the > >> > only one going through this. > >> > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe > >> > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and > >> > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > >> > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > >> > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I > >> > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy > >> > using my cane and traveling. > >> > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great > >> > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor > >> > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go > >> > around my area I'd be okay. > >> > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen > >> > as they were supposed to. > >> > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use > >> > my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere > >> > indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting > >> > much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and > >> > crossing streets. > >> > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to > >> > show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and > >> > then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > >> > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street > >> > from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is > >> > extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted > >> > intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I > >> > arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot > >> > one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and > >> > has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. > >> > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to > >> > try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this > >> > friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental > >> > mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend > >> > can't help me again for another week or so. > >> > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille > >> > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in > >> > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this > >> > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or > >> > more. > >> > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > >> > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there > >> > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > >> > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been > >> > able to do as much afterwords? > >> > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick > >> > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > >> > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > >> > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > >> > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to > >> > post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > >> > frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only > >> > one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are > >> > able to get right out there and travel completely independently > >> > without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone > >> > around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just > >> > feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like > >> > with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are > >> > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who > >> > graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to > >> > travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel > >> > frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so > >> > wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle > >> > with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. > >> > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, > >> > Kerri > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > nabs-l mailing list > >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for nabs-l: > >> > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>nabs-l mailing list > >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > > > > >-- >Anjelina > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 07:19:24 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 02:19:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: <529583d0.4668e50a.3f6f.ffffc5cdSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> <529583d0.4668e50a.3f6f.ffffc5cdSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <001301ceeb41$006fc690$014f53b0$@gmail.com> That was Andrew who is our resident Canadian, not me. It's good though; I' sure he saw the message. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:30 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Hi, Justin, To frame your frustration, in terms of your life in Canada is not inclusive of the whole picture, and I imagine you know this. After all, there are rural areas of the US in which blinks tend to languish, in the same way there are probably big cities in Canada which, if relocated too, can offer the opportunity for independence you crave.Do some research. Find yourself a training program situated in a Canadian province in which you wish to live. then, look at training centers as a way to establish residency and, if you find nothing that tickles your fancy, then see about coming to a training center Stateside. There is no reason if you have access to GOOGLE, you need to be languishing in the country with no access to means of exercising free will, if you want it. for today, Car 408-209-3239-08-209-3230 a >Hi I myself can identify with you a bit. I live in the country with no >transit or busses or anything like that I live out in the middle of >nowhere. I actually have to count on my family to take me places or >somebody to drive me places to take me into town and things. I find >that very frusterating as it keeps me from doing all I really would >want to do it is not like I can go down a street to a coffee shop. I >don't have streets here it is just long gravel roads. > > I can't really be independent while living in the country. You >people in the states are very lucky to have the big training centers >Canada does not have that at all. I been considering moving into a big >city for these reasons brought out by people on this list. and so I >can have a life of my own and things. > >On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > > justin, > > I like to do the same thing. It combines route travel with > exploration. Once > > I know the environment, I'll go a little off course to see what is there. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: justin williams > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:03 PM > > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the side > > trails just in case I get entangled or a little off the path so that > > I know what happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > Ashley Bramlett > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > Kerri, > > I think Cindy had some excellent points. > > I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. > > > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to > > stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > > > > > My response: > > I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an > > out of state center. > > However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing > > guidance in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how > > much training I have. To some extent, I think I will be a route > > traveler for sake of my sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes > > more time and I feel that going unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. > > I mean, you have the whole world out there. Sure I'd go out and > > stroll around if I had the time and > knew it was a > > fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, > > I'm not going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably > > follow a route that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For > > me, I believe route travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking thing. > > > > Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go > > to work or the same store all the time. > > So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing > > wrong with that. > > I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't > > work I'd ask a mobility instructor. > > Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If > > you intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor > > assist in orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If > > writing down directions helps you remember it, then either you or > > the instructor can do that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M > > instructor can make a > map of the > > area. > > > > I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind > > and vision impaired or DBVI. > > All instructors but one were fine. > > I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing > up was real > > route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not > > analyze intersections. > > However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of > O&M was the > > frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they > > have too many to serve to teach you more consistently. > > Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open > > to teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside > > was one of them told me to rely too much on my vision. > > I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the > metro. The > > instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and > > gave me a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are on. > > She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd > > ask someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color > > lines alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. > > She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I > > would do alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right > > train and getting off it and out of the station. I also learned more > > about crossing streets including pressing buttons to activate those > > pedestrian walk > signs. She also > > oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I > > was also shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. > > If you want more info on this, I can explain. > > > > So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, > > and I have used agency O&M instruction. > > I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a > > hard skill for you, it will always be that way. But you can still > > travel, > just may need > > you use other ways. > > > > I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said > sighted people > > don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. > > Sighted people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories > > than others just as blind people do. > > Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent > > miles of space on paper. They also see signs. > > Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. > > They might go out and find it if they know the general area and > > then read numbers to locate a specific address. > > My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so > > she knows where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. > > Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. > > So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they > > certainly use some guidance. > > Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also > > sighted and blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone > > showing you where building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn directions. > > Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just > > take off and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use > > tools to help them out too. > > > > How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can > > move soon to be more independent. > > Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on yourself. > > You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You > > might be able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off > > somewhere like a strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions > > clubs; then take > your driver > > out to lunch or something as payment. > > > > Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know > > cabs are expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. > > It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I > > was at college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro > > station and from there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. > > When I came home, I missed the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus > > stop as it's a > dangerous busy road > > with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. > > I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so > > you can practice your skills. > > HTH, > > Ashley > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kerri Kosten > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long > time whether > > to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post > > on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd > > post my frustrations. > > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am > the only one > > going through this. > > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe > > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and > > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I > > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy > > using my cane and traveling. > > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great > > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor > > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to > > go around my area I'd be okay. > > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't > happen as they > > were supposed to. > > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to > > use my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or > > somewhere indoors and to get directions from people but where I am > > not getting much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. > > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone > to show me > > something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I > > have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the > > street from me. The problem is first though that this particular > > street is extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or > > lighted intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. > > I arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I > > forgot one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is > > open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. > > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General > just to try to > > map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, > I was able > > to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just > > like I was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again > > for > another week > > or so. > > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille > > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in > > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this > > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. > > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there > > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really > been able to > > do as much afterwords? > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to > > stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not > > to post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > frustrated/discouraged sometimes > > because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else > > who graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and > > travel completely independently without having to depend on anyone > > to show them anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so > > drives, and I guess sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who > > struggles with travel. I feel like with sighted people they don't > > have to be shown anything, or are limited in where they can drive. > > It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able > > to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I > > just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only > > one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation where > > you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. > > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > 0gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > hlink.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gma > > il.com > > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. >net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 07:25:16 2013 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 02:25:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] job advice In-Reply-To: <8892E8DD33A44D49BF4699534FF6EBFF@OwnerPC> References: <8892E8DD33A44D49BF4699534FF6EBFF@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <96FD9541-F0EA-46D7-ADC3-C56D2CCBA46D@gmail.com> Hi Jeff, When I was a teenager I worked part time at Taco Bell on the order assembly line. Some other tasks I did was portion chips or the good ole dish washing job. :) Many of the blindness skills you would use in your kitchen are transferrable to a larger fast food setting. Best wishes. -Anjelina Sent from my iPad > On Nov 26, 2013, at 2:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Jeff, > Can you provide more info. I assume you are in high school. > So your work hours are limited. Are you seeking a job at night after school? Are you seeking a little weekend job? > > Try to do something you're interested in. What skills do you have? Can you use the Microsoft office suite and databases? > You can obviously use the computer since you emailed us. > > If so, some part time jobs are working customer service, selling tickets at a box office, being one of those survey rep callers, working at mall guest services which basically means you answer people's questions at the desk, and providing office assistance. > > If you do not want to use a pc and you feel you can teach people, tutoring children or adults is another good part time job; since you yourself are a teen, I recommend tutoring people younger than you which should not be hard to find as kids and nonprofits serving them are numerous. > You could also be a babysitter. > > There are many jobs you can do being totally blind. These are just some ideas that can be done part time since you are a student. Once you decide a career path, I suggest networking with blind professionals in that field. You can do most any white collar professional job provided you have good grades and usually you need a masters degree and you take certification tests. Once that is done and you have internships and references, you can go job hunting. Some jobs I know blind people doing are computer programmer, database manager, lawyer, writer, social worker, and pr professional. There are others, but this is what I've experienced by meeting people in NFB. Oh, and many blind people work in the federal government; this is because they have a target number of people with disabilities to hire. > > So these are some ideas. With more specifics, we can help you figure out how you can do the job you want to do. > > Unfortunately, many part time teenage jobs are not accessible, so I can see why you'd wonder what can you do? We cannot be servers, delivery drivers like for Dominos, or in many cases receptionists. These jobs are often filled by teens. > > Good luck. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Crouch > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:54 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] job advice > > Hi all, > I had a question. > I am 16 and i am looking for a job, now i'm totaly blind, and don't > know what jobs are out there that i could do, at this point i would be > intrested in any job. > > thanks > > -- > 73 > k8tvv > jeff crouch > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Wed Nov 27 13:27:25 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 05:27:25 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: <001301ceeb41$006fc690$014f53b0$@gmail.com> References: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> <529583d0.4668e50a.3f6f.ffffc5cdSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <001301ceeb41$006fc690$014f53b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Good mornng, Andrew, Just wanted to see if you knew!! for today, 408-209-3239CarAt 11:19 PM 11/26/2013, justin williams wrote: >That was Andrew who is our resident Canadian, not me. It's good though; I' >sure he saw the message. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis >Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:30 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > >Hi, Justin, > > To frame your frustration, in terms of your life in Canada is not >inclusive of the whole picture, and I imagine you know this. >After all, there are rural areas of the US in which blinks tend to languish, >in the same way there are probably big cities in Canada which, if relocated >too, can offer the opportunity for independence you crave.Do some research. >Find yourself a training program situated in a Canadian province in which >you wish to live. then, look at training centers as a way to establish >residency and, if you find nothing that tickles your fancy, then see about >coming to a training center Stateside. There is no reason if you have access >to GOOGLE, you need to be languishing in the country with no access to means >of exercising free will, if you want it. >for today, Car >408-209-3239-08-209-3230 a > >Hi I myself can identify with you a bit. I live in the country with no > >transit or busses or anything like that I live out in the middle of > >nowhere. I actually have to count on my family to take me places or > >somebody to drive me places to take me into town and things. I find > >that very frusterating as it keeps me from doing all I really would > >want to do it is not like I can go down a street to a coffee shop. I > >don't have streets here it is just long gravel roads. > > > > I can't really be independent while living in the country. You > >people in the states are very lucky to have the big training centers > >Canada does not have that at all. I been considering moving into a big > >city for these reasons brought out by people on this list. and so I > >can have a life of my own and things. > > > >On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > > > justin, > > > I like to do the same thing. It combines route travel with > > exploration. Once > > > I know the environment, I'll go a little off course to see what is >there. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: justin williams > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:03 PM > > > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > > > Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the side > > > trails just in case I get entangled or a little off the path so that > > > I know what happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > > Ashley Bramlett > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > > > Kerri, > > > I think Cindy had some excellent points. > > > I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. > > > > > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to > > > stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > > > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > > > > > > > > My response: > > > I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an > > > out of state center. > > > However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing > > > guidance in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how > > > much training I have. To some extent, I think I will be a route > > > traveler for sake of my sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes > > > more time and I feel that going unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. > > > I mean, you have the whole world out there. Sure I'd go out and > > > stroll around if I had the time and > > knew it was a > > > fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, > > > I'm not going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably > > > follow a route that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For > > > me, I believe route travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking >thing. > > > > > > Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go > > > to work or the same store all the time. > > > So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing > > > wrong with that. > > > I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't > > > work I'd ask a mobility instructor. > > > Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If > > > you intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor > > > assist in orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If > > > writing down directions helps you remember it, then either you or > > > the instructor can do that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M > > > instructor can make a > > map of the > > > area. > > > > > > I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind > > > and vision impaired or DBVI. > > > All instructors but one were fine. > > > I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing > > up was real > > > route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not > > > analyze intersections. > > > However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of > > O&M was the > > > frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they > > > have too many to serve to teach you more consistently. > > > Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open > > > to teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside > > > was one of them told me to rely too much on my vision. > > > I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the > > metro. The > > > instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and > > > gave me a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are >on. > > > She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd > > > ask someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color > > > lines alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. > > > She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I > > > would do alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right > > > train and getting off it and out of the station. I also learned more > > > about crossing streets including pressing buttons to activate those > > > pedestrian walk > > signs. She also > > > oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I > > > was also shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. > > > If you want more info on this, I can explain. > > > > > > So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, > > > and I have used agency O&M instruction. > > > I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a > > > hard skill for you, it will always be that way. But you can still > > > travel, > > just may need > > > you use other ways. > > > > > > I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said > > sighted people > > > don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. > > > Sighted people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories > > > than others just as blind people do. > > > Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent > > > miles of space on paper. They also see signs. > > > Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. > > > They might go out and find it if they know the general area and > > > then read numbers to locate a specific address. > > > My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so > > > she knows where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. > > > Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. > > > So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they > > > certainly use some guidance. > > > Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also > > > sighted and blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone > > > showing you where building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn >directions. > > > Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just > > > take off and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use > > > tools to help them out too. > > > > > > How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can > > > move soon to be more independent. > > > Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on >yourself. > > > You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You > > > might be able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off > > > somewhere like a strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions > > > clubs; then take > > your driver > > > out to lunch or something as payment. > > > > > > Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know > > > cabs are expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. > > > It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I > > > was at college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro > > > station and from there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. > > > When I came home, I missed the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus > > > stop as it's a > > dangerous busy road > > > with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. > > > I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so > > > you can practice your skills. > > > HTH, > > > Ashley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kerri Kosten > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long > > time whether > > > to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post > > > on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd > > > post my frustrations. > > > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am > > the only one > > > going through this. > > > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe > > > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and > > > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > > > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > > > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I > > > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy > > > using my cane and traveling. > > > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great > > > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor > > > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to > > > go around my area I'd be okay. > > > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't > > happen as they > > > were supposed to. > > > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to > > > use my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or > > > somewhere indoors and to get directions from people but where I am > > > not getting much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to >block and crossing streets. > > > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone > > to show me > > > something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I > > > have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > > > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the > > > street from me. The problem is first though that this particular > > > street is extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or > > > lighted intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. > > > I arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I > > > forgot one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is > > > open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. > > > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General > > just to try to > > > map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, > > I was able > > > to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just > > > like I was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again > > > for > > another week > > > or so. > > > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille > > > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in > > > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this > > > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or >more. > > > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > > > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there > > > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > > > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really > > been able to > > > do as much afterwords? > > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to > > > stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show > > > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not > > > to post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > > frustrated/discouraged sometimes > > > because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else > > > who graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and > > > travel completely independently without having to depend on anyone > > > to show them anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so > > > drives, and I guess sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who > > > struggles with travel. I feel like with sighted people they don't > > > have to be shown anything, or are limited in where they can drive. > > > It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are able > > > to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I > > > just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only > > > one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation where > > > you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane >that much. > > > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > > hlink.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%4 > > 0gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40eart > > hlink.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gma > > > il.com > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. > >net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From justin.williams2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 13:38:56 2013 From: justin.williams2 at gmail.com (justin williams) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 08:38:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: <5295f386.ca07e00a.20e2.ffffeafeSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> <529583d0.4668e50a.3f6f.ffffc5cdSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> <001301ceeb41$006fc690$014f53b0$@gmail.com> <5295f386.ca07e00a.20e2.ffffeafeSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <001501ceeb76$05d0ee90$1172cbb0$@gmail.com> That is a rather interesting way you have of getting across the street Carly. Sometimes you just got to do what you got to do. Can't argue with that. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly Mihalakis Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 8:27 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Good mornng, Andrew, Just wanted to see if you knew!! for today, 408-209-3239CarAt 11:19 PM 11/26/2013, justin williams wrote: >That was Andrew who is our resident Canadian, not me. It's good though; I' >sure he saw the message. > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Carly >Mihalakis >Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:30 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; National >Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > >Hi, Justin, > > To frame your frustration, in terms of your life in Canada is >not inclusive of the whole picture, and I imagine you know this. >After all, there are rural areas of the US in which blinks tend to >languish, in the same way there are probably big cities in Canada >which, if relocated too, can offer the opportunity for independence you crave.Do some research. >Find yourself a training program situated in a Canadian province in >which you wish to live. then, look at training centers as a way to >establish residency and, if you find nothing that tickles your fancy, >then see about coming to a training center Stateside. There is no >reason if you have access to GOOGLE, you need to be languishing in the >country with no access to means of exercising free will, if you want it. >for today, Car >408-209-3239-08-209-3230 a > >Hi I myself can identify with you a bit. I live in the country with > >no transit or busses or anything like that I live out in the middle > >of nowhere. I actually have to count on my family to take me places > >or somebody to drive me places to take me into town and things. I > >find that very frusterating as it keeps me from doing all I really > >would want to do it is not like I can go down a street to a coffee > >shop. I don't have streets here it is just long gravel roads. > > > > I can't really be independent while living in the country. You > >people in the states are very lucky to have the big training centers > >Canada does not have that at all. I been considering moving into a > >big city for these reasons brought out by people on this list. and > >so I can have a life of my own and things. > > > >On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: > > > justin, > > > I like to do the same thing. It combines route travel with > > exploration. Once > > > I know the environment, I'll go a little off course to see what is >there. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: justin williams > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:03 PM > > > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > > > Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the > > > side trails just in case I get entangled or a little off the path > > > so that I know what happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of > > Ashley Bramlett > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > > > Kerri, > > > I think Cindy had some excellent points. > > > I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. > > > > > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to > > > stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to > > > show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > > > > > > > > My response: > > > I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try > > > an out of state center. > > > However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing > > > guidance in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter > > > how much training I have. To some extent, I think I will be a > > > route traveler for sake of my sanity and time. Discovering new > > > ways takes more time and I feel that going unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. > > > I mean, you have the whole world out there. Sure I'd go out and > > > stroll around if I had the time and > > knew it was a > > > fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, > > > I'm not going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably > > > follow a route that someone showed me or gave me directions to. > > > For me, I believe route travel would be the fastest and less nerve > > > racking >thing. > > > > > > Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to > > > go to work or the same store all the time. > > > So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing > > > wrong with that. > > > I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't > > > work I'd ask a mobility instructor. > > > Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If > > > you intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility > > > instructor assist in orientation is helpful. Do you know how you > > > learn best? If writing down directions helps you remember it, then > > > either you or the instructor can do that. If you learn well with > > > maps, your O&M instructor can make a > > map of the > > > area. > > > > > > I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind > > > and vision impaired or DBVI. > > > All instructors but one were fine. > > > I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing > > up was real > > > route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not > > > analyze intersections. > > > However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of > > O&M was the > > > frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; > > > they have too many to serve to teach you more consistently. > > > Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more > > > open to teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The > > > downside was one of them told me to rely too much on my vision. > > > I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the > > metro. The > > > instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations > > > and gave me a braille guide of stations which shows which line > > > stations are >on. > > > She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd > > > ask someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times > > > color lines alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. > > > She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I > > > would do alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right > > > train and getting off it and out of the station. I also learned > > > more about crossing streets including pressing buttons to activate > > > those pedestrian walk > > signs. She also > > > oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I > > > was also shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. > > > If you want more info on this, I can explain. > > > > > > So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly > > > routes, and I have used agency O&M instruction. > > > I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a > > > hard skill for you, it will always be that way. But you can still > > > travel, > > just may need > > > you use other ways. > > > > > > I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said > > sighted people > > > don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. > > > Sighted people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories > > > than others just as blind people do. > > > Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which > > > represent miles of space on paper. They also see signs. > > > Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. > > > They might go out and find it if they know the general area and > > > then read numbers to locate a specific address. > > > My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so > > > she knows where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. > > > Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. > > > So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they > > > certainly use some guidance. > > > Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also > > > sighted and blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone > > > showing you where building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn >directions. > > > Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just > > > take off and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to > > > use tools to help them out too. > > > > > > How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you > > > can move soon to be more independent. > > > Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on >yourself. > > > You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You > > > might be able to get a driver from a community club to drop you > > > off somewhere like a strip mall while you shop. Check with the > > > lions clubs; then take > > your driver > > > out to lunch or something as payment. > > > > > > Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know > > > cabs are expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. > > > It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I > > > was at college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro > > > station and from there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. > > > When I came home, I missed the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a > > > bus stop as it's a > > dangerous busy road > > > with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. > > > I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible > > > so you can practice your skills. > > > HTH, > > > Ashley > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kerri Kosten > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM > > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > > Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... > > > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > > > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long > > time whether > > > to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to > > > post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured > > > I'd post my frustrations. > > > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am > > the only one > > > going through this. > > > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe > > > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people > > > and such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. > > > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. > > > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I > > > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy > > > using my cane and traveling. > > > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that > > > great at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My > > > instructor told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed > > > me where to go around my area I'd be okay. > > > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't > > happen as they > > > were supposed to. > > > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to > > > use my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or > > > somewhere indoors and to get directions from people but where I am > > > not getting much practice is outdoors like walking from city block > > > to >block and crossing streets. > > > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone > > to show me > > > something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I > > > have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. > > > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the > > > street from me. The problem is first though that this particular > > > street is extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or > > > lighted intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. > > > I arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I > > > forgot one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that > > > is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. > > > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General > > just to try to > > > map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, > > I was able > > > to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such > > > just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me > > > again for > > another week > > > or so. > > > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille > > > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was > > > in training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do > > > this type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another > > > week or >more. > > > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? > > > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is > > > there anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? > > > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really > > been able to > > > do as much afterwords? > > > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to > > > stick primarily to someone showing them where something is first? > > > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to > > > show them where things are? If so, what was your experience? > > > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not > > > to post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel > > frustrated/discouraged sometimes > > > because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else > > > who graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and > > > travel completely independently without having to depend on anyone > > > to show them anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so > > > drives, and I guess sometimes I just feel like I am the only one > > > who struggles with travel. I feel like with sighted people they > > > don't have to be shown anything, or are limited in where they can drive. > > > It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are > > > able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. I guess > > > sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I > > > am the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar > > > situation where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out > > > there and use your cane >that much. > > > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, > > > Kerri > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea > > rt > > hlink.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2 > > %4 > > 0gmail.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea > > rt > > hlink.net > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > nabs-l mailing list > > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > > for > > > nabs-l: > > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40g > > > ma > > > il.com > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. > >net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40 >gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast. >net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail .com From mkvnfb94 at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 16:15:39 2013 From: mkvnfb94 at gmail.com (Mariya Vasileva) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:15:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Ashley. I am in the same boat as you are. i went to the Louisiana Center last summer to do some STEP training, and because of my family being so uneducated about blindness, I to have not been able to travel on my own and do all the things that I was taught, however, I will talk to my mentor and a few federationists to help solve this problem. I do want to tell you that route travel is a good way to problem solve and work through situations I agree. I believe that if you get some people from this wonderful organization to assist you and help you get through this time you will get back the independence and self confidence that you have gained from the center, and if you come in contact with the right people, like Dr. maurer, then we as a whole organization will get you to where you need to be, I promise you. Sincerely, Mariya P.S. If you need anymore assistance or words of wisdom, you can contact me back. On 11/26/13, Andrew wrote: > Hi I myself can identify with you a bit. I live in the country with > no transit or busses or anything like that I live out in the middle > of nowhere. I actually have to count on my family to take me places > or somebody to drive me places to take me into town and things. I > find that very frusterating as it keeps me from doing all I really > would want to do it is not like I can go down a street to a coffee > shop. I don't have streets here it is just long gravel roads. > > I can't really be independent while living in the country. You > people in the states are very lucky to have the big training centers > Canada does not have that at all. I been considering moving into a > big city for these reasons brought out by people on this list. and so > I can have a life of my own and things. > > On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >> justin, >> I like to do the same thing. It combines route travel with exploration. >> Once >> I know the environment, I'll go a little off course to see what is there. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: justin williams >> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:03 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... >> >> Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the side >> trails >> just in case I get entangled or a little off the path so that I know what >> happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >> Bramlett >> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... >> >> Kerri, >> I think Cindy had some excellent points. >> I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. >> >> Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick >> primarily to someone showing them where something is first? >> Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them >> where things are? If so, what was your experience? >> >> >> My response: >> I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an out >> of >> state center. >> However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing >> guidance >> in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how much training >> I >> have. To some extent, I think I will be a route traveler for sake of my >> sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes more time and I feel that >> going >> unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. I mean, you have the whole world out >> there. Sure I'd go out and stroll around if I had the time and knew it was >> a >> fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, I'm not >> going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably follow a route >> that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For me, I believe route >> travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking thing. >> >> Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go to >> work >> or the same store all the time. >> So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing wrong >> with >> that. >> I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't work >> I'd >> ask a mobility instructor. >> Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If you >> intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor assist >> in >> orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If writing down >> directions helps you remember it, then either you or the instructor can >> do >> that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M instructor can make a map of >> the >> area. >> >> I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind and >> vision impaired or DBVI. >> All instructors but one were fine. >> I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing up was >> real >> route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not analyze >> intersections. >> However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of O&M was >> the >> frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they have >> too many to serve to teach you more consistently. >> Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open to >> teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside was one of >> them told me to rely too much on my vision. >> I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the metro. >> The >> instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and gave >> me >> a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are on. >> She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd ask >> someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color lines >> alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. >> She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I would do >> alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right train and >> getting >> off it and out of the station. I also learned more about crossing streets >> including pressing buttons to activate those pedestrian walk signs. She >> also >> oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I was >> also >> shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. >> If you want more info on this, I can explain. >> >> So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, and >> I >> have used agency O&M instruction. >> I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a hard >> skill >> for you, it will always be that way. But you can still travel, just may >> need >> you use other ways. >> >> I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said sighted >> people >> don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. Sighted >> people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories than others >> just >> as blind people do. >> Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent >> miles >> of space on paper. They also see signs. >> Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. >> They might go out and find it if they know the general area and then >> read >> numbers to locate a specific address. >> My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so she >> knows >> where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. >> Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. >> So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they >> certainly >> use some guidance. >> Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also sighted >> and >> blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone showing you where >> building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn directions. >> Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just take >> off >> and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use tools to help >> them out too. >> >> How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can move >> soon to be more independent. >> Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on yourself. >> You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You might >> be >> able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off somewhere like >> a >> strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions clubs; then take your >> driver >> out to lunch or something as payment. >> >> Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know cabs are >> expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. >> It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I was at >> college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro station and from >> there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. When I came home, I >> missed >> the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus stop as it’s a dangerous busy >> road >> with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. >> I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so you >> can >> practice your skills. >> HTH, >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kerri Kosten >> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... >> >> Hi Everyone: >> >> I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time >> whether >> to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on >> topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my >> frustrations. >> I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the only >> one >> going through this. >> I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe hearing >> loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I >> can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. >> Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. >> Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really >> enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my cane >> and traveling. >> Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at >> mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me >> when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my >> area I'd be okay. >> To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen as >> they >> were supposed to. >> I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my >> cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere >> indoors >> and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much >> practice >> is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. >> Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to show >> me >> something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have >> to >> wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. >> For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street >> from >> me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely >> busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without >> assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me >> cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a >> huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the >> echos from the building. >> I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to try >> to >> map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, I was >> able >> to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like >> I >> was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for another >> week >> or so. >> I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille compass, >> and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more >> often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for a >> day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. >> I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? >> I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there >> anyone >> else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? >> Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been able >> to >> do as much afterwords? >> Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick >> primarily to someone showing them where something is first? >> Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them >> where things are? If so, what was your experience? >> As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to >> post >> rants, or negative threads, but I just feel frustrated/discouraged >> sometimes >> because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who >> graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel >> completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them >> anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess >> sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I >> feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or >> are >> limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who >> graduates >> from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel everywhere. >> I >> guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I >> am >> the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation >> where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use your >> cane that much. >> Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mkvnfb94%40gmail.com > From mkvnfb94 at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 16:22:09 2013 From: mkvnfb94 at gmail.com (Mariya Vasileva) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:22:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... In-Reply-To: References: <001401ceeb0c$7d66d830$78348890$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/27/13, Mariya Vasileva wrote: > Hi Ashley. > I am in the same boat as you are. i went to the Louisiana Center last > summer to do some STEP training, and because of my family being so > uneducated about blindness, I to have not been able to travel on my > own and do all the things that I was taught, however, I will talk to > my mentor and a few federationists to help solve this problem. I do > want to tell you that route travel is a good way to problem solve and > work through situations I agree. I believe that if you get some people > from this wonderful organization to assist you and help you get > through this time you will get back the independence and self > confidence that you have gained from the center, and if you come in > contact with the right people, like Dr. maurer, then we as a whole > organization will get you to where you need to be, I promise you. > Sincerely, > Mariya > P.S. If you need anymore assistance or words of wisdom, you can contact me > back. > > On 11/26/13, Andrew wrote: >> Hi I myself can identify with you a bit. I live in the country with >> no transit or busses or anything like that I live out in the middle >> of nowhere. I actually have to count on my family to take me places >> or somebody to drive me places to take me into town and things. I >> find that very frusterating as it keeps me from doing all I really >> would want to do it is not like I can go down a street to a coffee >> shop. I don't have streets here it is just long gravel roads. >> >> I can't really be independent while living in the country. You >> people in the states are very lucky to have the big training centers >> Canada does not have that at all. I been considering moving into a >> big city for these reasons brought out by people on this list. and so >> I can have a life of my own and things. >> >> On 11/26/13, Ashley Bramlett wrote: >>> justin, >>> I like to do the same thing. It combines route travel with exploration. >>> Once >>> I know the environment, I'll go a little off course to see what is >>> there. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: justin williams >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:03 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... >>> >>> Once I know an area, I do like to wander around and look at the side >>> trails >>> just in case I get entangled or a little off the path so that I know >>> what >>> happened and how to correct myself if this occurs. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley >>> Bramlett >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 7:47 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... >>> >>> Kerri, >>> I think Cindy had some excellent points. >>> I wanted to add a little more and respond to these questions. >>> >>> Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick >>> primarily to someone showing them where something is first? >>> Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them >>> where things are? If so, what was your experience? >>> >>> >>> My response: >>> I have not been to a nfb center and don't plan to but I might try an out >>> of >>> state center. >>> However, as I have spatial challenges, I anticipate always needing >>> guidance >>> in mapping out routes I'll do over and over, no matter how much training >>> I >>> have. To some extent, I think I will be a route traveler for sake of my >>> sanity and time. Discovering new ways takes more time and I feel that >>> going >>> unfamiliar places outdoors is scary. I mean, you have the whole world >>> out >>> there. Sure I'd go out and stroll around if I had the time and knew it >>> was >>> a >>> fairly safe area. But if I need to get to say, a doctor's office, I'm >>> not >>> going around to figure out what is around it. I'd probably follow a >>> route >>> that someone showed me or gave me directions to. For me, I believe route >>> travel would be the fastest and less nerve racking thing. >>> >>> Sighted people use routes too. They often take the same route to go to >>> work >>> or the same store all the time. >>> So, learning a route to work or a grocery store is fine, nothing wrong >>> with >>> that. >>> I would use a reliable friend or family member, or if that doesn't work >>> I'd >>> ask a mobility instructor. >>> Many instructors will let you discover more and problem solve. If you >>> intend to do a route over and over, having a mobility instructor assist >>> in >>> orientation is helpful. Do you know how you learn best? If writing down >>> directions helps you remember it, then either you or the instructor can >>> do >>> that. If you learn well with maps, your O&M instructor can make a map of >>> the >>> area. >>> >>> I have used the O&M service from our vr agency, dept for the blind and >>> vision impaired or DBVI. >>> All instructors but one were fine. >>> I mentioned my O&M growing up last email; my instruction growing up was >>> real >>> route based and I was not encouraged to problem solve and did not >>> analyze >>> intersections. >>> However, as an adult, I have had more success. The worst part of O&M was >>> the >>> frequency. I received it a few times per month in my community; they >>> have >>> too many to serve to teach you more consistently. >>> Instruction was more helpful. I feel that instructors were more open to >>> teaching me what I needed and how I learned best. The downside was one >>> of >>> them told me to rely too much on my vision. >>> I was shown techniques to ride our WMATA subway system called the metro. >>> The >>> instructor explained the layouts of different types of stations and gave >>> me >>> a braille guide of stations which shows which line stations are on. >>> She told me to listen for our stop and if I could not hear it, I'd ask >>> someone which stop we were at. She told me that most times color lines >>> alternated, but to be sure of the color, I'd have to ask someone. >>> She had me interact with the public and fellow riders just as I would do >>> alone. I had to take responsibility for finding the right train and >>> getting >>> off it and out of the station. I also learned more about crossing >>> streets >>> including pressing buttons to activate those pedestrian walk signs. She >>> also >>> oriented me to college. There is more, but those are highlights. I was >>> also >>> shown how to use the metro to go to a few internships. >>> If you want more info on this, I can explain. >>> >>> So to answer your questions, yes and yes. I have done mostly routes, and >>> I >>> have used agency O&M instruction. >>> I don't think all problems disappear after training. If O&M is a hard >>> skill >>> for you, it will always be that way. But you can still travel, just may >>> need >>> you use other ways. >>> >>> I also wanted to add something about sighted people. You said sighted >>> people >>> don't have to be shown anything. I believe that is inaccurate. Sighted >>> people use guidance too. Some have better spatial memories than others >>> just >>> as blind people do. >>> Its just not obvious because sighted people see maps which represent >>> miles >>> of space on paper. They also see signs. >>> Sighted people might have a friend show them where building y or x is. >>> They might go out and find it if they know the general area and then >>> read >>> numbers to locate a specific address. >>> My mom has gone out to find places before she has appointments so she >>> knows >>> where it is in order to find it quickly with time pressure. >>> Sighted people also ask for directions a lot in new environments. >>> So while they may not have as much hands on guidance as us, they >>> certainly >>> use some guidance. >>> Its via maps or verbal directions or computer directions. Also sighted >>> and >>> blind people can use GPS which is almost like someone showing you where >>> building y is because GPS gives you turn by turn directions. >>> Its not like all sighted people know where everything is and just take >>> off >>> and go. No, not at the beginning at least. They have to use tools to >>> help >>> them out too. >>> >>> How is the public transit in your area? II f its bad, I hope you can >>> move >>> soon to be more independent. >>> Meanwhile remember other ways to travel and don't be so hard on >>> yourself. >>> You could use paratransit if that exists. You could use taxis. You might >>> be >>> able to get a driver from a community club to drop you off somewhere >>> like >>> a >>> strip mall while you shop. Check with the lions clubs; then take your >>> driver >>> out to lunch or something as payment. >>> >>> Could you take a taxi to that dollar store you mentioned? I know cabs >>> are >>> expensive, but once in a while you might be able to afford it. >>> It sounds like you feel trapped and I know how that can e. When I was at >>> college, I used the campus shuttle to get to the metro station and from >>> there I went to the mall or nearby restaurants. When I came home, I >>> missed >>> the freedom I had; I cannot walk to a bus stop as it’s a dangerous busy >>> road >>> with no sidewalks. I can use paratransit and taxis though. >>> I think you'll be fine. Just try and get out as much as possible so you >>> can >>> practice your skills. >>> HTH, >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Kerri Kosten >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... >>> >>> Hi Everyone: >>> >>> I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time >>> whether >>> to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to post on >>> topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd post my >>> frustrations. >>> I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the only >>> one >>> going through this. >>> I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe >>> hearing >>> loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and such, but I >>> can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. >>> Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. >>> Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I really >>> enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy using my >>> cane >>> and traveling. >>> Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great at >>> mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor told me >>> when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go around my >>> area I'd be okay. >>> To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen as >>> they >>> were supposed to. >>> I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use my >>> cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere >>> indoors >>> and to get directions from people but where I am not getting much >>> practice >>> is outdoors like walking from city block to block and crossing streets. >>> Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to >>> show >>> me >>> something I love it because I get to really use my cane and then I have >>> to >>> wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. >>> For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street >>> from >>> me. The problem is first though that this particular street is extremely >>> busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted intersections without >>> assistance because of my hearing loss. I arranged for someone to help me >>> cross the street. However, I forgot one thing. This dollar general has a >>> huge parking lot that is open and has no landmarks and I can't hear the >>> echos from the building. >>> I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to >>> try >>> to >>> map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this friend, I was >>> able >>> to use my braille compass, and work on mental mapping and such just like >>> I >>> was taught in training. Well, my friend can't help me again for another >>> week >>> or so. >>> I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille >>> compass, >>> and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in training more >>> often. It really brings me down when I get to do this type of thing for >>> a >>> day, and then I can't do it for another week or more. >>> I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? >>> I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there >>> anyone >>> else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? >>> Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been >>> able >>> to >>> do as much afterwords? >>> Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick >>> primarily to someone showing them where something is first? >>> Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show them >>> where things are? If so, what was your experience? >>> As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to >>> post >>> rants, or negative threads, but I just feel frustrated/discouraged >>> sometimes >>> because I feel like I am the only one. It seems like everyone else who >>> graduates from NFB centers are able to get right out there and travel >>> completely independently without having to depend on anyone to show them >>> anything. Everyone around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess >>> sometimes I just feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. >>> I >>> feel like with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or >>> are >>> limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who >>> graduates >>> from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to travel >>> everywhere. >>> I >>> guess sometimes I just feel frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I >>> am >>> the only one and so wondered if others were also in a similar situation >>> where you struggle with travel or don't get to get out there and use >>> your >>> cane that much. >>> Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, Kerri >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/andrewjedg%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mkvnfb94%40gmail.com >> > From lilliepennington at fuse.net Wed Nov 27 16:50:23 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:50:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] job advice In-Reply-To: <96FD9541-F0EA-46D7-ADC3-C56D2CCBA46D@gmail.com> References: <8892E8DD33A44D49BF4699534FF6EBFF@OwnerPC> <96FD9541-F0EA-46D7-ADC3-C56D2CCBA46D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7F0C1691-0E68-4612-9C73-D40B349B484D@fuse.net> Have you looked into possibly starting your own business? If you are good at audio editing or sound designing, website production, or computer programming you could possibly try some of those. There possibly other options I am not thinking of. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 27, 2013, at 2:25 AM, Anjelina wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > When I was a teenager I worked part time at Taco Bell on the order assembly line. Some other tasks I did was portion chips or the good ole dish washing job. :) Many of the blindness skills you would use in your kitchen are transferrable to a larger fast food setting. Best wishes. > > > -Anjelina > Sent from my iPad > >> On Nov 26, 2013, at 2:13 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: >> >> Jeff, >> Can you provide more info. I assume you are in high school. >> So your work hours are limited. Are you seeking a job at night after school? Are you seeking a little weekend job? >> >> Try to do something you're interested in. What skills do you have? Can you use the Microsoft office suite and databases? >> You can obviously use the computer since you emailed us. >> >> If so, some part time jobs are working customer service, selling tickets at a box office, being one of those survey rep callers, working at mall guest services which basically means you answer people's questions at the desk, and providing office assistance. >> >> If you do not want to use a pc and you feel you can teach people, tutoring children or adults is another good part time job; since you yourself are a teen, I recommend tutoring people younger than you which should not be hard to find as kids and nonprofits serving them are numerous. >> You could also be a babysitter. >> >> There are many jobs you can do being totally blind. These are just some ideas that can be done part time since you are a student. Once you decide a career path, I suggest networking with blind professionals in that field. You can do most any white collar professional job provided you have good grades and usually you need a masters degree and you take certification tests. Once that is done and you have internships and references, you can go job hunting. Some jobs I know blind people doing are computer programmer, database manager, lawyer, writer, social worker, and pr professional. There are others, but this is what I've experienced by meeting people in NFB. Oh, and many blind people work in the federal government; this is because they have a target number of people with disabilities to hire. >> >> So these are some ideas. With more specifics, we can help you figure out how you can do the job you want to do. >> >> Unfortunately, many part time teenage jobs are not accessible, so I can see why you'd wonder what can you do? We cannot be servers, delivery drivers like for Dominos, or in many cases receptionists. These jobs are often filled by teens. >> >> Good luck. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Crouch >> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2013 1:54 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] job advice >> >> Hi all, >> I had a question. >> I am 16 and i am looking for a job, now i'm totaly blind, and don't >> know what jobs are out there that i could do, at this point i would be >> intrested in any job. >> >> thanks >> >> -- >> 73 >> k8tvv >> jeff crouch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Wed Nov 27 16:59:09 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 09:59:09 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] job advice In-Reply-To: References: <7559173D-EFAD-41BC-92B7-5F148FD66081@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1B8BBB7D-B3FB-4E30-B55D-DBCC73C4D693@gmail.com> You may also consider personal business ventures then, since you seem to have a lot of skill and time and motivation. Can you program? Write an app. Start with something free and open source, and then maybe release a paid app if your work is popular. Start a PC help desk kind of business where you assist people by phone or in person with their tech problems. Do some tech teaching on your own for a reasonable rate and advertise your services on library and grocery store bulletin boards. Help people build their websites or do copy writing for other people's businesses. There's a lot you can do for yourself to make money. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 26, 2013, at 9:46 PM, Jeff Crouch wrote: > > Hi all, > Well with school, work hours versis school isn't a facter for me > because i do online self teaching classes, there for i have pretty > much all of my day open. I know bestbuy won't higher. Most of the > things that i am running into is liability problems. I am very skilled > in computers. The only problem is that sence i live in Flint Michigan, > jobs are scairse. > I'm just looking for something that will put a little cash in my > pocket, at this point, i'd be willing to do anything, i know tech > support would be a option, but yet again i'd have to find a place that > highers a person under the age of 18. > > hope this helps. > >> On 11/26/13, Josh Gregory wrote: >> This will depend largely on your hobbies and what you like to do, you don't >> want to do something that you don't really like, you might have to do that >> at first, but eventually you'll find what you're into and get into that >> field. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 26, 2013, at 1:54 PM, Jeff Crouch wrote: >>> >>> Hi all, >>> I had a question. >>> I am 16 and i am looking for a job, now i'm totaly blind, and don't >>> know what jobs are out there that i could do, at this point i would be >>> intrested in any job. >>> >>> thanks >>> >>> -- >>> 73 >>> k8tvv >>> jeff crouch >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joshkart12%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jeffanel%40gmail.com > > > -- > 73 > k8tvv > jeff crouch > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Thu Nov 28 01:56:56 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:56:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Ringing in the holidays with a special promotion Message-ID: >From: "Serotek Announcements" >Subject: Ringing in the holidays with a special promotion >To: dandrews at visi.com >Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:37:30 -0500 (EST) > >Please do not reply to this message. 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The whole idea is that >anyone can tap into our growing menu of services >for the undisputed king of prices, free! > >Self-restraint? What self-restraint. Some of us >have already bought gadgets we probably didn’t >need, but >DocuScan >Plus will be right there to turn that printed manual into spoken word. > >And speaking of words, spread this one: >Socializer >is a fully-featured platform that lets you >reconnect with friends and family you may not >see in person this holiday season. Facebook, >Twitter, Skype, Google Chat, Windows Live and >several other popular options are fair game for >this intuitive communications tool. > >If conventional social networking is not your >cup of tea, that’s okay. The Game Room and >Sports of All Sorts voice chat rooms on >SAMNet are a >great place to exchange smack about your >favorite football teams. 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We dare you to find a >more comprehensive set of services neatly >packaged into one convenient bundle of >awesomeness. Our products were built from the >ground up to be used easily right out of the >box, but customer service representatives will >be standing by to guide you through any difficulties you may encounter. > >Ready to get started? >Download the >latest Serotek software if you don’t already >have it installed. If you do own Serotek >products, just choose the shortcuts already on >your desktop to launch the products you want to >use, or access them by activating the System >Access menu with modifier+f and choosing the appropriate option. > >Got questions? Send us an email at >ifo at serote.cor call us toll-free at (866) 202-0520. > >Happy holidays from the Serotek team! > >---------- > >---------- >Activate >this link to stop receiving Serotek announcements. From dandrews at visi.com Thu Nov 28 01:58:19 2013 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:58:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: ADV: The Clear View News, November 2013 Message-ID: > >Having trouble viewing this email? >Click >here > >My Blind Spot, the clear view to diversity > >In This Issue >JUST HOW WE SEE IT >We Did It! >A Letter From John Martyn >VIEWS GONE WILD >FOCUSED VIEWS >Quest for QuickBooks >SUPPORT OUR VIEW >Thank You! >LAST BUT NOT LEAST >Quick Survey >About Us >My Blind Spot is an organization dedicated to >helping visually impaired individuals. >PLEASE SHARE! > >Please feel free to share this newsletter with >your friends and colleagues. We would also >appreciate your taking time to >like >us on Facebook by clicking here. > > >Like us on Facebook > > >Join our mailing list! > > >© My Blind Spot, Inc. >Drop Shadow Accent Image > >The Clear View News >November 2013 Volume 1 Issue 1 >Dear David, > > JUST HOW WE SEE IT >Newsletter - Dance Drop Shadow Image > >We Did It! > >I don't even know where to begin. For starters, >this is the first release of our quarterly newsletter, The Clear View News. > >We have come a long way since seeing the launch >of My Blind Spot. We have secured meaningful >funding to deliver on our mission and vision for >the community. We have addressed specific >accessibility issues plaguing the blind and >print disabled communities in the area of >financial management. We have grown from what >was an organization handled by a single set of >hands, to a group with many hands and many >shoulders making light work for all we need to do. > >This is only the beginning, and I continue to >invite you, our supporters, to help guide us in >the direction of addressing the next big thing >for the community. We have a significant success >under our belts with the completion of our >QuickBooks project, with sights set on training, >outreach and educating people of all abilities >about our mantra, "Access to the right tools >creates ability and restores infinite possibilities." > >Much thanks and gratitude to Jim and Ted, Tom, >Brian, Dianna and Bob, Jim, Cathy, Kathleen, >Lori, John, Steve, Dixie, Daniel, Ted, Cheryl, >Sujasree, Denise, Jon, David, Lisa, and, last but not least, Mom and Dad. > >"The only thing worse than being blind is having >sight, but no vision." Helen Keller > >Appreciatively, Albert J. Rizzi, CEO and Founder > > >A Letter From John Martyn > >Hi all, > >My name is John Martyn and I have been dreaming >about QuickBooks accessibility for more than 2 >years. It started off with something I thought >would grab Intuit's interest: scripts I had >written for QuickBooks 13. I presented the >scripts for what I called "QuickBooks Blind" to >Lori Samuels, Accessibility Program Manager at >Intuit, when I first met her at the CSUN conference in early 2012. > >Just a few months earlier, Lori had been >speaking with Albert Rizzi of My Blind Spot >about making an accessible and usable version of >QuickBooks. Thanks to Lori, Albert and I were >introduced, and the three of us started >brainstorming about actually making a usable and >accessible version of QuickBooks. > >As I worked on the scripts, writing and >rewriting code, it became apparent that we >needed to attack this from a different angle if >we were going to be successful. After >investigating potential partners and speaking >with experts in the field, of whom some stayed >and some did not, My Blind Spot decided that in >order to get the ball rolling on the development >of a usable version of QB, we needed to expand >the team. Lori set out to secure support from >the engineering team at Intuit while Albert set >his sights on reaching out to the best in the >field when it came to programming and accessibility. > >Soon we were all working with Steve Clark of >Adaptive Technology Services, and the real fun began. > >Steve set his sights on auditing and assessing >the platform of QuickBooks, and Lori expanded >the team internally at Intuit to include Cheryl Aranha and Ted Drake. > >For many years the blind and print disabled >community had searched for an accessible version >of QuickBooks, and it had been said time and >again that someone was doing QuickBooks >accessibility, but people kept waiting and hoping. Until now. > >The momentum we generated led to executive >support from Intuit, which was that shot in the >arm we needed to proceed. With buy-in from the >executive level and the engineering level, we >were able to transform an accounting program >only marginally usable to the blind into a >program usable and accessible to all. > >A short while ago, my dream to make it possible >for blind business owners, accountants, and >bookkeepers to manage their own finances became >a reality. We have been beta testing everything >the team has done to get QuickBooks working for the community. > >I am happy to be working with the team that My >Blind Spot pulled together on what is to become, >in my opinion, the largest accessibility project >for the blind, opening doors of employment and >creating opportunities for blind small business >owners to independently manage their own businesses. > >This is why this project is so important to me >personally and professionally. A lot was >sacrificed to make my dream a reality. I thank >all who that have been involved in the Quest for >QuickBooks, for their hard work and their >dedication to making QuickBooks accessible to people of all abilities. > >Thanks to all who volunteered to beta test. We >are working hard to get it all pieced together, >andwith your help, we can make it even better. > >John Martyn > > > VIEWS GONE WILD >Contributed by Albert J. Rizzi > >Do you know Donna Triply? Have you ever gotten an email from Donna? > >This week a funny thing happened. I had been >sending out updates and announcements through My >Blind Spot to keep our followers and supporters >advised of the latest and greatest accomplishments and strides made at MBS. > >A colleague and new friend, Ann, forwarded me an >email that was sent to her by Donna. She asked >why Donna had forwarded the email to her and why >I had not sent it to her directly. > >Admittedly, I was confused. I did not send an >email to Donna nor did I ask her to forward >anything to anyone on my behalf. Who was Donna, >and why was she forwarding our press release >about our project to make QuickBooks accessible >and usable to the blind and the print disabled? > >Putting on my best Sherlock Holmes outfit, I >took to investigating the matter. Turned out, >after a little sleuthing, that I did know Donna, >or at least who sent the email that seemed to >come from Donna Triply. It was our webmaster, David Annett. > >When David set up our announce list to keep >people informed on current events, he >established a one-way list that does not allow >people to reply to us. The "from" address field reads as follows: > >donotreply at myblindspot.org > >Now, for those of you who do not use a screen >reader or adaptive tools that the blind and the >print disabled use to translate text into audio >output, I suspect that you are scratching your >heads. But when that address is translated into >audio output for screen reader users, what it >sounds like is Donna Triply. I just about fell >off my chair laughing once I figured out what was wrong. > >I immediately wrote to my friend, Ann, and told >her what I had deduced. She suggested that to >avoid that problem, I needed to use caps at the >start of each new word-for example, >DoNotReply at MyBlindSpot.org. >Then, what you all see as non-screen-reader >users will exactly match what we hear as blind >and print disabled users of adaptive technologies. > >If we all make that simple adjustment or ask our >webmasters to address this consideration, no one >will ever wonder who Donna Triply is and why she is writing to us. > > > > > FOCUSED VIEWS >Newsletter - Dance Drop Shadow Image > > >The Quest for QuickBooks > > > >There's an old saying when it comes to knowing >what will happen in the end: "It's not over till the fat lady sings." > > > >For more than twenty years, the blind and >visually impaired have been waiting for that >climactic aria in the opera that might be titled >"The Quest for QuickBooks;" that is, for an >ADA-compliant, usable QuickBooks that will give >them access to the preeminent accounting software on par with sighted users. > > > >Some in the audience had no choice but to give up on their quest. > > > >"I've only attempted to access QuickBooks a >dozen or so times, as there's really nothing I >can do with it and it gets me more frustrated >every time I make an attempt. I really need >access to QuickBooks to enhance my day to day >guiding of the company, as finances and accurate >bookkeeping are the foundation to any successful >business," said John Wellslager. > > > >In spite of the myriad challenges posed over the >years, others, out of necessity, and with varied >degrees of success, struggled to use the >available accounting programs by using any >number of props and accessories to bridge issues >that remain present even today. In the world of >financial software, this is nothing new. >Consider the experience of Richard Kelly: > > > >"I've been legally blind most of my life. In >1988 I began using computers, then screen >readers in 1990, and by 1992, my being able to >use a screen or a monitor ended. As my usable >vision was failing, I knew I had to find an >accessible accounting computer program if I had >any hopes of maintaining my financial >independence. Over the years I've heard, and >continue to hear, you cannot use QuickBooks with >a screen reader. It's not accessible. >Nonetheless, I found it usable until the 2013 >release, which I found to be neither accessible >nor usable. In my opinion, it had become utterly worthless." > > > >Sadly, there are always false finales. When we >do find a program that works, with no tweaking >or scripting solution required to bridge the >digital divide, we hold our breath and pray that >it stays usable and accessible as new releases >and upgrades are made to the core product. All >too often, however, what starts out well >screeches to an abrupt halt when a program is >rendered inaccessible due to an operating system >update. Even worse is when the core product is >rendered useless with an update by an engineer >or web designer with little understanding of accessibility issues. > > > >For example, Julie Warrington had deep concerns >when she first learned about the initiative to >make an accessible and usable version of QuickBooks. > > > >"The QB software is a major part of my >employment, and I am very concerned that if they >break the accessibility work-arounds I have developed, I will be out of a job." > > > >As a result, many of us have contacted software >companies over the years to encourage them to >design accessibility into, or return lost >accessibility to, their product. Occasionally, >we receive an empathetic response but more often >it is a dismissive comment. Joleen Ferguson got >the runaround from various customer service reps >who offered little or no appreciation for accessibility. > > > >"I don't have the confidence to believe that >things will not quickly become outdated again >with next year's product update, but I strongly >agree that we need choices. My choice is to >support the company that supports me and my needs." > > > >Yes, there is something operatic about >this-mistaken identities, misdirected magic, >broken hearts. Until recently, blind users had >the satisfaction of keeping track of their >finances with an earlier scripted version of >Quicken only to lose accessibility when a new >and improved version of the accounting program came out. > > > >The accessibility opera plays on. Off stage, the >critics scoff. With years of soaring promises >followed by dashed hopes, the community has >grown justifiably skeptical as to whether or not >the Diva will ever take center stage and belt out that high note. > > > >Yet, for those who are desperate for access to >QuickBooks, there is reason to remain hopeful. >My Blind Spot, a nonprofit organization founded >by Albert J. Rizzi, is championing accessibility >for the blind and visually impaired by >collaborating with Intuit, Inc. to make their >preeminent small business financial software >truly accessible, usable, and ADA compliant. My >Blind Spot has successfully reached out to >Intuit, at many levels, in order to convey to >them the urgency of improving accessibility to their financial products. > > > >Kim Thurman is one of those hopeful individuals >placing her trust in My Blind Spot and Intuit to >bring an accessible option for financial management to the community. > > > >"I am very intrigued with your efforts to >finally make QuickBooks accessible with screen >readers. I have attempted to use the software >several times over the years to no avail." > > > >Perhaps the most compelling story is the one >highlighted in a video produced by My Blind Spot >and posted on YouTube. Dixie Sanderson and her >circumstances are representative of the truths >the blind community has lived with, and continue >to live with, for far too long. > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZklXouXyORk > > > >Through the combined efforts of the engineering >teams at My Blind Spot and Intuit, the >20-year-long, seemingly Wagnerian quest for >accessible QuickBooks appears to be coming to an >end. If you listen carefully, you might hear the >conductor tuning up the orchestra from the pit >in preparation for the final act. The soprano, >waiting in the wings, is practicing her new lyrics. > > > >For Dixie, the song used to be, "I had to >dissolve my business and turn to disability >income." It has been replaced with, "My >contractors say that when I can use QuickBooks, >I will be their bookkeeper once again." > > > >To that end, and opening to a wide audience and >rave reviews, My Blind Spot, in concert with >Intuit, will be raising the curtain on a usable >and accessible version of QuickBooks for Windows >appearing live on a desktop near you. > > > >The community is approaching a crescendo, sung >loud and strong, promising hope and opportunity for people of all abilities. > > > >Finally! > > >SUPPORT OUR VIEW > >Thanks to all who contributed to our recent >fundraiser held in conjunction with Macy's >Annual Shop for a Cause Event. We are constantly >looking for additional support and resources to >continue our work for people of all abilities. >We are open to suggestions of ways we can secure >the precious resources needed to do what we do best-opening doors for others. > > > >In the coming months, we plan to launch a >fundraising effort through an online platform. Stay tuned! > > > >Albert J. Rizzi, M.Ed. > >access equals ability, infinite possibilities > > > >LAST BUT NOT LEAST > >Take our super-quick survey! > > > >Our web professionals have put together an >Accessibility Awareness Survey consisting of 6 >true or false questions on Survey Monkey. The >survey is for developers and novices alike. >Please take a moment to fill it out. You can find it at: > > > > >http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RZGZ2J8 > > > > >We will share the results as soon as we have >more than 100 participants. Please share the >link with all the developers you know! > > >Forward >this email > >[] > >[] > >This email was sent to dandrews at visi.com by >webmaster at myblindspot.org | >Update >Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with >SafeUnsubscribe™ >| Privacy Policy. >My Blind Spot | 90 Broad Street - 18th Fl. | New York | NY | 10004 From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Nov 28 02:57:16 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 21:57:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering Message-ID: <00e701ceebe5$8c44a470$a4cded50$@net> Hello all Seeing the recent job question sparked a question that had been residing in the back of my mind for a while, and I'm hoping you all may have some suggestions. I am wondering if any of you would know of or have ideas of a volunteering or job that would preferably help me in my chosen field for the future. I am pondering the fields of social work, psychology, and nursing. This would probably be during the summer seeing as I have a heavy courseload during the school year. I will be sixteen in March, and I would like some experience in these fields so I could maybe get a more specific idea of what these fields entail, or if I'd even be interested in them. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu Nov 28 03:40:51 2013 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 20:40:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering In-Reply-To: <00e701ceebe5$8c44a470$a4cded50$@net> References: <00e701ceebe5$8c44a470$a4cded50$@net> Message-ID: <4BA1CF82-6CBB-4F92-A402-535D02FCCDC3@gmail.com> I did a lot of volunteering during high school in jobs that are somewhat related to these fields. All of these professions will require you to have an understanding of people in different stages of life, including children and the elderly. I used to volunteer with my local library's Summer Reading Program, which gave me the opportunity to work with children of all ages with many unique backgrounds. I also worked at the senior center, helping with recreational activities, and learned a lot about senior life and the many unique challenges the elderly face. When I was a bit younger, I spent three years as a student aide in my school's special education department and worked very closely with children and other teens who spanned a wide spectrum of physical and cognitive exceptionalities. I helped mostly with classroom activities and had a lot of one on one time with students, but I observed a lot to relating to care of students medical needs. If your school has a program like this, you should consider getting involved. It would be great for the career paths you've mentioned. Tutoring is great, too. When I started college, I tutored at a local middle school with a study buddy program for underprivileged students who were struggling with the basics. It was a great opportunity to learn about how kids learn, and experience the perspectives of kids facing some very grown up challenges in life, like poverty and hunger and abandonment. It's a great way to help and broaden your mind at the same time. Best, Jamie Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 27, 2013, at 7:57 PM, "Lillie Pennington" wrote: > > Hello all > > Seeing the recent job question sparked a question that had been residing in > the back of my mind for a while, and I'm hoping you all may have some > suggestions. > > > > I am wondering if any of you would know of or have ideas of a volunteering > or job that would preferably help me in my chosen field for the future. I am > pondering the fields of social work, psychology, and nursing. This would > probably be during the summer seeing as I have a heavy courseload during the > school year. I will be sixteen in March, and I would like some experience in > these fields so I could maybe get a more specific idea of what these fields > entail, or if I'd even be interested in them. Any ideas would be > appreciated. > > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Nov 28 03:41:47 2013 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley Bramlett) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 22:41:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering In-Reply-To: <00e701ceebe5$8c44a470$a4cded50$@net> References: <00e701ceebe5$8c44a470$a4cded50$@net> Message-ID: Lillie, I suggest you job shadow some people in these fields. Also conduct informational interviews which basically means you interview someone in the field about their job; ask how they got there, what skills they use, what typical duties are like, and what they like and dislike about the job. Its smart of you to research careers because so many people just take jobs they don't like or they go to higher education and study a lot. After studying and obtaining a degree, they get jobs and find out they hate the field. Preparing early will help you get a good career and a happy one too. To volunteer, look at nonprofits. I assume you want to work with people because psychologists, social workers, and nurses all work with people and help them. For the social work and psychology fields, you could assist in a nonprofit. You could help clients. Some nonprofits need people to perform intake screenings which means you ask questions to assess elligibility. You could do that. I do not know the rules about helping psychologists; they may not let you help directly due to the license needed and confidentiality. But, what I'm thinking is psychologists lead support groups all the time. Maybe you could help facilitate them. I know agencies often take office volunteers, but I think what you're seeking is more hands on with clients. If talking to people in crisis interests you, there are nonprofits who need hotline volunteers. Although, I'm not sure you can do it in summer as the training is so long and they often require at least a 6 month commitment. You could also work at a homeless shelter assisting their case managers. You could do presentations at the homeless shelter to their clients on a life topic like nutrition as long as you know it and research it well. If working with the prison population is of interest, you can lead classes in a jail or prison if they run a volunteer program. For the nursing, I don't know. That is such a specialized field requiring training to do that intricate work of using the equipment. I cannot think of a way to help a nurse since you lack the training for health care workers. I know nursing homes take volunteers, so maybe you could assist in a health related capacity there. When I tried to volunteer in the summer, I found that they wanted a longer commitment than I could give. Also I ran into computer issues because not all nonprofits let me install jaws. I hope you find one that works for you. Keep in mind you need to often apply, be interviewed, and go through a background check. This takes time. My suggestion would be start early! Fill out applications during spring break and try to get an interview or two in spring break when you're home. Some applications are online, others are a downloadable form which you need sighted assistance to fill out. It can take a few weeks for a background check. So, do start early, otherwise the summer will be half over before you are cleared to volunteer. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Lillie Pennington Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:57 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering Hello all Seeing the recent job question sparked a question that had been residing in the back of my mind for a while, and I'm hoping you all may have some suggestions. I am wondering if any of you would know of or have ideas of a volunteering or job that would preferably help me in my chosen field for the future. I am pondering the fields of social work, psychology, and nursing. This would probably be during the summer seeing as I have a heavy courseload during the school year. I will be sixteen in March, and I would like some experience in these fields so I could maybe get a more specific idea of what these fields entail, or if I'd even be interested in them. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From lilliepennington at fuse.net Thu Nov 28 04:01:22 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 23:01:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering In-Reply-To: References: <00e701ceebe5$8c44a470$a4cded50$@net> Message-ID: Thanks for all of the suggestions. I will begin looking into some nonprofits around here and talking to some people as to what I could do. Again, thanks for all the help. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 27, 2013, at 10:41 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" wrote: > > Lillie, > I suggest you job shadow some people in these fields. Also conduct informational interviews which basically means you interview someone in the field about their job; ask how they got there, what skills they use, what typical duties are like, and what they like and dislike about the job. > > Its smart of you to research careers because so many people just take jobs they don't like or they go to higher education and study a lot. After studying and obtaining a degree, they get jobs and find out they hate the field. > > Preparing early will help you get a good career and a happy one too. > To volunteer, look at nonprofits. > I assume you want to work with people because psychologists, social workers, and nurses all work with people and help them. > For the social work and psychology fields, you could assist in a nonprofit. You could help clients. > Some nonprofits need people to perform intake screenings which means you ask questions to assess elligibility. > You could do that. I do not know the rules about helping psychologists; they may not let you help directly due to the license needed and confidentiality. > But, what I'm thinking is psychologists lead support groups all the time. Maybe you could help facilitate them. > I know agencies often take office volunteers, but I think what you're seeking is more hands on with clients. > > If talking to people in crisis interests you, there are nonprofits who need hotline volunteers. Although, I'm not sure you can do it in summer as the training is so long and they often require at least a 6 month commitment. > You could also work at a homeless shelter assisting their case managers. > You could do presentations at the homeless shelter to their clients on a life topic like nutrition as long as you know it and research it well. > If working with the prison population is of interest, you can lead classes in a jail or prison if they run a volunteer program. > For the nursing, I don't know. That is such a specialized field requiring training to do that intricate work of using the equipment. > I cannot think of a way to help a nurse since you lack the training for health care workers. > I know nursing homes take volunteers, so maybe you could assist in a health related capacity there. > > When I tried to volunteer in the summer, I found that they wanted a longer commitment than I could give. Also I ran into computer issues because not all nonprofits let me install jaws. > I hope you find one that works for you. Keep in mind you need to often apply, be interviewed, and go through a background check. This takes time. My suggestion would be start early! Fill out applications during spring break and try to get an interview or two in spring break when you're home. Some applications are online, others are a downloadable form which you need sighted assistance to fill out. > It can take a few weeks for a background check. So, do start early, otherwise the summer will be half over before you are cleared to volunteer. > > Good luck. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Lillie Pennington > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:57 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering > > Hello all > > Seeing the recent job question sparked a question that had been residing in > the back of my mind for a while, and I'm hoping you all may have some > suggestions. > > > > I am wondering if any of you would know of or have ideas of a volunteering > or job that would preferably help me in my chosen field for the future. I am > pondering the fields of social work, psychology, and nursing. This would > probably be during the summer seeing as I have a heavy courseload during the > school year. I will be sixteen in March, and I would like some experience in > these fields so I could maybe get a more specific idea of what these fields > entail, or if I'd even be interested in them. Any ideas would be > appreciated. > > Thanks > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From denverqueen1107 at comcast.net Thu Nov 28 09:04:54 2013 From: denverqueen1107 at comcast.net (Beth Taurasi) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 02:04:54 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Ringing in the holidays with a special promotion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52970736.1030608@comcast.net> How much is ti normally per month? I'm considering a subscription, but have to think on it real quick. BethOn 11/27/2013 6:56 PM, David Andrews wrote: > >> From: "Serotek Announcements" >> Subject: Ringing in the holidays with a special promotion >> To: dandrews at visi.com >> Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:37:30 -0500 (EST) >> >> Please do not reply to this message. If you don't wish to receive any >> more Serotek announcements, activate the link at the end of this >> message. >> >> Nothing kicks off the holiday season like Thanksgiving. Think about >> it: food, football, door buster deals, parades and plenty of >> justification for the Christmas decorations you never took down! >> Well, this year, Serotek is going to add one more bonus to make the >> gateway holiday even more memorable than usual. >> >> Perhaps we should have come up with a name for it. But then, what do >> you call fourteen days of free, unfiltered, use all you can, where >> ever you want, whenever you want access to all of our Serotek >> consumer products? >> >> That’s right. Starting Wednesday, November 27 you’ll be able to >> e-mail, chat, scan, entertain and socialize to your heart’s >> content. Existing customers do not need to contact us for trial >> access to products they do not own or subscribe to. The whole idea is >> that anyone can tap into our growing menu of services for the >> undisputed king of prices, free! >> >> Self-restraint? What self-restraint. Some of us have already bought >> gadgets we probably didn’t need, but >> DocuScan Plus will be right >> there to turn that printed manual into spoken word. >> >> And speaking of words, spread this one: >> Socializer is a >> fully-featured platform that lets you reconnect with friends and >> family you may not see in person this holiday season. Facebook, >> Twitter, Skype, Google Chat, Windows Live and several other popular >> options are fair game for this intuitive communications tool. >> >> If conventional social networking is not your cup of tea, that’s >> okay. The Game Room and Sports of All Sorts voice chat rooms on >> SAMNet are a great place to exchange >> smack about your favorite football teams. Chat together over a hot >> cup of coffee in the café, or join your friends for a drink in the pub, >> >> What else can you do with our wide range of tools? >> * Use System Access and your favorite word processor to create your >> detailed Christmas list. >> * Remotely access your home computer to review that Christmas list >> while you’re out and about. >> * Listen to hundreds of hours of described movies >> * Send text or voice messages using the world’s most intuitive >> e-mail platform >> * Swap Black Friday deals on our interactive forums >> * Figure out what to do with all those holiday leftovers by browsing >> SAMNet’s huge collection of great recipes. >> * Crank up the tunes from hundreds of streaming radio stations. >> * Access your previously scanned documents and many of your favorite >> SAMNet features from your iDevice. >> >> We think you’ll be kept quite busy exploring all the world Serotek >> has to offer. Don’t believe us? Well, don’t take our word for it. >> Check it out for yourself. We dare you to find a more comprehensive >> set of services neatly packaged into one convenient bundle of >> awesomeness. Our products were built from the ground up to be used >> easily right out of the box, but customer service representatives >> will be standing by to guide you through any difficulties you may >> encounter. >> >> Ready to get started? Download the >> latest Serotek software if you don’t already have it installed. If >> you do own Serotek products, just choose the shortcuts already on >> your desktop to launch the products you want to use, or access them >> by activating the System Access menu with modifier+f and choosing the >> appropriate option. >> >> Got questions? Send us an email at ifo at serote.cor call us >> toll-free at (866) 202-0520. >> >> Happy holidays from the Serotek team! >> >> ---------- >> >> ---------- >> Activate >> this link to stop receiving Serotek announcements. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > From arielle71 at gmail.com Thu Nov 28 20:33:24 2013 From: arielle71 at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 13:33:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering In-Reply-To: References: <00e701ceebe5$8c44a470$a4cded50$@net> Message-ID: Hi illie, I volunteered for a teen crisis hotline when I was in high school. It would be a great way to learn what it is like to counsel people dealing with serious life challenges and to see if this is something you enjoy and feel comfortable with. You could also volunteer for a Hospice or other facility that involves nursing care. Some of these kinds of programs may have job shadow or summer intern opportunities for teens. Good luck! Arielle On 11/27/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: > Thanks for all of the suggestions. I will begin looking into some nonprofits > around here and talking to some people as to what I could do. Again, thanks > for all the help. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 27, 2013, at 10:41 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >> wrote: >> >> Lillie, >> I suggest you job shadow some people in these fields. Also conduct >> informational interviews which basically means you interview someone in >> the field about their job; ask how they got there, what skills they use, >> what typical duties are like, and what they like and dislike about the >> job. >> >> Its smart of you to research careers because so many people just take jobs >> they don't like or they go to higher education and study a lot. After >> studying and obtaining a degree, they get jobs and find out they hate the >> field. >> >> Preparing early will help you get a good career and a happy one too. >> To volunteer, look at nonprofits. >> I assume you want to work with people because psychologists, social >> workers, and nurses all work with people and help them. >> For the social work and psychology fields, you could assist in a >> nonprofit. You could help clients. >> Some nonprofits need people to perform intake screenings which means you >> ask questions to assess elligibility. >> You could do that. I do not know the rules about helping psychologists; >> they may not let you help directly due to the license needed and >> confidentiality. >> But, what I'm thinking is psychologists lead support groups all the time. >> Maybe you could help facilitate them. >> I know agencies often take office volunteers, but I think what you're >> seeking is more hands on with clients. >> >> If talking to people in crisis interests you, there are nonprofits who >> need hotline volunteers. Although, I'm not sure you can do it in summer as >> the training is so long and they often require at least a 6 month >> commitment. >> You could also work at a homeless shelter assisting their case managers. >> You could do presentations at the homeless shelter to their clients on a >> life topic like nutrition as long as you know it and research it well. >> If working with the prison population is of interest, you can lead classes >> in a jail or prison if they run a volunteer program. >> For the nursing, I don't know. That is such a specialized field requiring >> training to do that intricate work of using the equipment. >> I cannot think of a way to help a nurse since you lack the training for >> health care workers. >> I know nursing homes take volunteers, so maybe you could assist in a >> health related capacity there. >> >> When I tried to volunteer in the summer, I found that they wanted a >> longer commitment than I could give. Also I ran into computer issues >> because not all nonprofits let me install jaws. >> I hope you find one that works for you. Keep in mind you need to often >> apply, be interviewed, and go through a background check. This takes time. >> My suggestion would be start early! Fill out applications during spring >> break and try to get an interview or two in spring break when you're home. >> Some applications are online, others are a downloadable form which you >> need sighted assistance to fill out. >> It can take a few weeks for a background check. So, do start early, >> otherwise the summer will be half over before you are cleared to >> volunteer. >> >> Good luck. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Lillie Pennington >> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:57 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering >> >> Hello all >> >> Seeing the recent job question sparked a question that had been residing >> in >> the back of my mind for a while, and I'm hoping you all may have some >> suggestions. >> >> >> >> I am wondering if any of you would know of or have ideas of a >> volunteering >> or job that would preferably help me in my chosen field for the future. I >> am >> pondering the fields of social work, psychology, and nursing. This would >> probably be during the summer seeing as I have a heavy courseload during >> the >> school year. I will be sixteen in March, and I would like some experience >> in >> these fields so I could maybe get a more specific idea of what these >> fields >> entail, or if I'd even be interested in them. Any ideas would be >> appreciated. >> >> Thanks >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com > From lissa1531 at gmail.com Thu Nov 28 22:37:08 2013 From: lissa1531 at gmail.com (melissa Green) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 15:37:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... References: <529591c7.4950e00a.752e.ffffb922SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7B4035E3AE874383AAB43DA20524A459@HP30910210001> carly and all. I also define indepenedence in this way. If we were the same. It would be a boring world. I think that people have a view of independence is wrapped in their idea of the nfb. Happy thanksgiving all. and happu Hanukkah to those celebrating. Best, Melissa R. Green and Pj COAGDU President "We love because he first loved us." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anjelina Cruz" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 12:03 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need Some Encouragement/Some Travel Questions... Good morning Carly, I like your can-do attitude! Even though your methods of seeking out information may be seen as unconventional for some, it works for you and you are still able to accomplish what you want! This is how I define independence. On 11/27/13, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Evening, Kerri, > > Your post did speak to me for a reason that, I became brain > damaged 10 years ago before attending a training center here in the > San Francisco Bay Area. A feature of brain damage, for me, has been > unreliable street crossings and short term memory problems so, I > cannot retrace my steps or know how many city blocks I have traveled. > For me, this wasn't cutting it for too long. My partner happens to be > a budding teacher of the visually impaired and, for us, It just isn't > practical trying to get our schedules to jive, so I have figured out > traveling "Turkey" style, after learning from some friends who worked > in Turkey about getting people on the street to help you travel.. So, > like when I need to cross streets or figure out where I currently am, > or simple features of the rout, I just grab someone happening to be > in the vicinity. I grab their shoulder, asking them the information I > am after. Now, I realize people may get up in arms, but for me, it > works like a charm. > And, you hear blinks, all the time say, part of what makes them a > strategic traveler is, knowing when to recruit ol' Sighty's help... > for today, Car > 408=-209-3239 > > PM 11/26/2013, Anjelina wrote: >>Good evening Kerri and all, >>Kerri, I don't think you have to apologize for your post. Your >>frustrations with travel is blindness related, and as other have >>said you are not the only one who struggles. I will not repeat what >>has already been so eloquently stated, however I would just add >>every situation is highly individualized. There is not a cookie >>cutter method of success for all NFB center graduates. What wors >>best for you is ok. If you use a mobility instructor for >>orientation, then go for it! >>I can only empathize with how your hearing loss impacts your travel, >>so I will not say I understand. You have made it past training. You >>have goals, and by posting here you are doing something about your >>frustrations. Remember you are not alone and training is not a magic >>pill to the bla moments of blindness or hearing loss. >> >> >> >>-Anjelina >>Sent from my iPad >> >> > On Nov 26, 2013, at 3:26 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> > >> > Hi Everyone: >> > >> > I hope it's okay for me to post this. I have debated for a long time >> > whether to post about this but I feel like everyone else is allowed to >> > post on topics such as family issues and other things so I figured I'd >> > post my frustrations. >> > I really just want some encouragement, and to know whether I am the >> > only one going through this. >> > I am totally blind, and in addition to my blindness I have severe >> > hearing loss. I can hear sounds and can communicate with people and >> > such, but I can't tell which direction sounds are coming from. >> > Basically, my hearing really affects my travel. >> > Last year, I graduated from the Louisiana Center for The Blind. I >> > really enjoyed it, and I really enjoyed cane travel class. I enjoy >> > using my cane and traveling. >> > Anyway, because of my hearing loss, and the fact I am not that great >> > at mental mapping, I did a lot of routes in training. My instructor >> > told me when I returned home if someone (anyone) showed me where to go >> > around my area I'd be okay. >> > To make a long story short, I returned home and things didn't happen >> > as they were supposed to. >> > I guess I just feel frustrated because I don't feel like I get to use >> > my cane that much. Sure, I can go to the mall, or a game or somewhere >> > indoors and to get directions from people but where I am not getting >> > much practice is outdoors like walking from city block to block and >> > crossing streets. >> > Another thing that frustrates me is when I do finally get someone to >> > show me something I love it because I get to really use my cane and >> > then I have to wait a week or more to be able to go out there again. >> > For example, there is a Dollar General store located across the street >> > from me. The problem is first though that this particular street is >> > extremely busy. I am unable to cross busy streets or lighted >> > intersections without assistance because of my hearing loss. I >> > arranged for someone to help me cross the street. However, I forgot >> > one thing. This dollar general has a huge parking lot that is open and >> > has no landmarks and I can't hear the echos from the building. >> > I had a friend on Saturday walk with me to the dollar General just to >> > try to map it out and see how big the parking lot was. With this >> > friend, I was able to use my braille compass, and work on mental >> > mapping and such just like I was taught in training. Well, my friend >> > can't help me again for another week or so. >> > I just wish I got to work on the things such as using my braille >> > compass, and mental mapping, and really using my cane like I was in >> > training more often. It really brings me down when I get to do this >> > type of thing for a day, and then I can't do it for another week or >> > more. >> > I guess I just wondered am I the only one in this situation? >> > I know on this list nobody else likely has hearing loss but is there >> > anyone else who doesn't get to go out and travel much? >> > Have any of you been to training and then afterwords not really been >> > able to do as much afterwords? >> > Is anybody else on this list also a route traveler or who has to stick >> > primarily to someone showing them where something is first? >> > Does anyone on here have to use a local mobility instructor to show >> > them where things are? If so, what was your experience? >> > As I said, I hope it's okay for me to post this. I usually try not to >> > post rants, or negative threads, but I just feel >> > frustrated/discouraged sometimes because I feel like I am the only >> > one. It seems like everyone else who graduates from NFB centers are >> > able to get right out there and travel completely independently >> > without having to depend on anyone to show them anything. Everyone >> > around here is sighted, and so drives, and I guess sometimes I just >> > feel like I am the only one who struggles with travel. I feel like >> > with sighted people they don't have to be shown anything, or are >> > limited in where they can drive. It seems like everyone else who >> > graduates from NFB centers are able to just use their hearing to >> > travel everywhere. I guess sometimes I just feel >> > frustrated/discouraged because I feel like I am the only one and so >> > wondered if others were also in a similar situation where you struggle >> > with travel or don't get to get out there and use your cane that much. >> > Thanks, and this is the only negative post from me I promise!, >> > Kerri >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >> >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > -- Anjelina _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lissa1531%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Nov 29 01:09:09 2013 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 17:09:09 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Happy Thanksgiving Message-ID: My NABS family, I would like to take a moment to wish you and yours a very happy thanksgiving. Hopefully you are going to read this tomorrow because you will be nowhere near this list serve. best wishes, Darian From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Fri Nov 29 03:43:22 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 22:43:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6279735425113755914@unknownmsgid> Darian, Call me addicted, but here I am, back on Twitter and the listserv while still recovering from the effects of eating way too much yummy goodness with the family. Triptophan is beginning to take its toll. Oh well... At least my Ravens are winning. :) Happy Thanksgiving to all! Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 28, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > > My NABS family, > I would like to take a moment to wish you and yours a very happy thanksgiving. > Hopefully you are going to read this tomorrow because you will be nowhere near this list serve. > best wishes, > Darian > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From lilliepennington at fuse.net Fri Nov 29 03:57:35 2013 From: lilliepennington at fuse.net (Lillie Pennington) Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 22:57:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Happy Thanksgiving In-Reply-To: <6279735425113755914@unknownmsgid> References: <6279735425113755914@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Happy thanksgiving to all as well. Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 28, 2013, at 10:43 PM, christopher nusbaum wrote: > > Darian, > > Call me addicted, but here I am, back on Twitter and the listserv > while still recovering from the effects of eating way too much yummy > goodness with the family. Triptophan is beginning to take its toll. Oh > well... At least my Ravens are winning. :) Happy Thanksgiving to all! > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 28, 2013, at 8:10 PM, Darian Smith wrote: >> >> My NABS family, >> I would like to take a moment to wish you and yours a very happy thanksgiving. >> Hopefully you are going to read this tomorrow because you will be nowhere near this list serve. >> best wishes, >> Darian >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net From beckyasabo at gmail.com Fri Nov 29 20:09:57 2013 From: beckyasabo at gmail.com (Rebecca Sabo) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 13:09:57 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering In-Reply-To: References: <00e701ceebe5$8c44a470$a4cded50$@net> Message-ID: <41F7FA74-40B4-4D22-9996-B2CE3D93A951@gmail.com> Hi How do you get involved to fine volunteer positions ? I have my AA degree in Human Services. I am working toward my BA in human services. I am looking for work or volunteer in the field of human service. I need more work experience on my resume. Becky On Nov 28, 2013, at 1:33 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi illie, > > I volunteered for a teen crisis hotline when I was in high school. It > would be a great way to learn what it is like to counsel people > dealing with serious life challenges and to see if this is something > you enjoy and feel comfortable with. You could also volunteer for a > Hospice or other facility that involves nursing care. Some of these > kinds of programs may have job shadow or summer intern opportunities > for teens. Good luck! > Arielle > > On 11/27/13, Lillie Pennington wrote: >> Thanks for all of the suggestions. I will begin looking into some nonprofits >> around here and talking to some people as to what I could do. Again, thanks >> for all the help. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Nov 27, 2013, at 10:41 PM, "Ashley Bramlett" >>> wrote: >>> >>> Lillie, >>> I suggest you job shadow some people in these fields. Also conduct >>> informational interviews which basically means you interview someone in >>> the field about their job; ask how they got there, what skills they use, >>> what typical duties are like, and what they like and dislike about the >>> job. >>> >>> Its smart of you to research careers because so many people just take jobs >>> they don't like or they go to higher education and study a lot. After >>> studying and obtaining a degree, they get jobs and find out they hate the >>> field. >>> >>> Preparing early will help you get a good career and a happy one too. >>> To volunteer, look at nonprofits. >>> I assume you want to work with people because psychologists, social >>> workers, and nurses all work with people and help them. >>> For the social work and psychology fields, you could assist in a >>> nonprofit. You could help clients. >>> Some nonprofits need people to perform intake screenings which means you >>> ask questions to assess elligibility. >>> You could do that. I do not know the rules about helping psychologists; >>> they may not let you help directly due to the license needed and >>> confidentiality. >>> But, what I'm thinking is psychologists lead support groups all the time. >>> Maybe you could help facilitate them. >>> I know agencies often take office volunteers, but I think what you're >>> seeking is more hands on with clients. >>> >>> If talking to people in crisis interests you, there are nonprofits who >>> need hotline volunteers. Although, I'm not sure you can do it in summer as >>> the training is so long and they often require at least a 6 month >>> commitment. >>> You could also work at a homeless shelter assisting their case managers. >>> You could do presentations at the homeless shelter to their clients on a >>> life topic like nutrition as long as you know it and research it well. >>> If working with the prison population is of interest, you can lead classes >>> in a jail or prison if they run a volunteer program. >>> For the nursing, I don't know. That is such a specialized field requiring >>> training to do that intricate work of using the equipment. >>> I cannot think of a way to help a nurse since you lack the training for >>> health care workers. >>> I know nursing homes take volunteers, so maybe you could assist in a >>> health related capacity there. >>> >>> When I tried to volunteer in the summer, I found that they wanted a >>> longer commitment than I could give. Also I ran into computer issues >>> because not all nonprofits let me install jaws. >>> I hope you find one that works for you. Keep in mind you need to often >>> apply, be interviewed, and go through a background check. This takes time. >>> My suggestion would be start early! Fill out applications during spring >>> break and try to get an interview or two in spring break when you're home. >>> Some applications are online, others are a downloadable form which you >>> need sighted assistance to fill out. >>> It can take a few weeks for a background check. So, do start early, >>> otherwise the summer will be half over before you are cleared to >>> volunteer. >>> >>> Good luck. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Lillie Pennington >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 9:57 PM >>> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >>> Subject: [nabs-l] volunteering >>> >>> Hello all >>> >>> Seeing the recent job question sparked a question that had been residing >>> in >>> the back of my mind for a while, and I'm hoping you all may have some >>> suggestions. >>> >>> >>> >>> I am wondering if any of you would know of or have ideas of a >>> volunteering >>> or job that would preferably help me in my chosen field for the future. I >>> am >>> pondering the fields of social work, psychology, and nursing. This would >>> probably be during the summer seeing as I have a heavy courseload during >>> the >>> school year. I will be sixteen in March, and I would like some experience >>> in >>> these fields so I could maybe get a more specific idea of what these >>> fields >>> entail, or if I'd even be interested in them. Any ideas would be >>> appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilliepennington%40fuse.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/beckyasabo%40gmail.com From carlymih at comcast.net Sat Nov 30 00:42:05 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 16:42:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world In-Reply-To: <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> References: <528CDCCA.90808@comcast.net> <006001cee62e$7338f600$59aae200$@gmail.com> <528D5335.3000706@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi, Beth, Seems to me, you may wanna be sure clear in your mind, the world according to whom? Remember, the world looks differently to each person according to his priorities, and his capabilities. And, everyone has his own reality. You sound a little nutty with this mad dash to have kids, anyway. How old are you? Remember, just because physiologically speaking, Mama nature says you can be a mother, doesn't mean you ought too. We don't want a baby, to be having a baby, now do we? I imagine Blake will undergo a change for the better, should you cool it on the kid thing. Just sayin, sister. for today, Car 408-209-3239 , Beth Taurasi wrote: >I faced problems in Florida, and no, I won't take my cousin's advice >to any mind, Arielle. She doesn't understand any of what I would >have said in this message. I'm glad you at least had some say in >your life as to whom you should marry, but my cousins and family are >saying I am obsessed with boys and don't give it time. Well, I'm 27 >and don't have any kids yet, and I really want to have healthy >pregnancies like everyone else and not at 35 or older. I'd like to >be able to marry as young as I can, but 35 is an unacceptable age to >be pregnant, and Blake's a bit younger anyway, so we have to gauge >how much time we have left before there's complications due to age >and stuff. My family doesn't really want me to do it because >they're fleshly and require fleshly things. Blake and I are devout >Christians, and don't believe so much that the all important job >should be first before marriage. I gained a lot of freedom by >coming to Denver, and I'm afraid it will be ripped away because of >whatever reason. It's so sad what families often think of us, as >their pets, not full members of the family. >Beth On 11/20/2013 3:48 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote: >>Hi Beth and all, >> >>The phrase "real world" has always bothered me, in a similar fashion >>as the word "normal". I'm not sure what the one "real world" is >>supposed to be, but in my observation it seems that everyone's reality >>is a little different. I would submit that people are living in the >>real world whether they are adolescents living with their parents, >>college students not yet paying their own bills, people paying their >>bills through SSI, or working people. Your cousin's implication that >>the "real world" is one dominated by sighted people is something I >>find particularly offensive. I would consider people working in the >>blindness field, or married to blind people, as still living in >>reality. >> >>I have dated both blind and sighted people. My husband is sighted, but >>I didn't marry him because I was specifically looking for a sighted >>husband; I married him because I fell in love with him and he fell in >>love with me even though I am blind. My parents never told me outright >>that I should marry a sighted person, but they did send me that >>message indirectly by being less enthusiastic about my blind >>boyfriends than about my sighted one. It is sad, but many of our >>family members just don't understand what blind partners have to offer >>us. I don't think you should give your cousin's advice in that area >>much mind. Anyone who has not met your boyfriend, blind or sighted, is >>not qualified to judge him in my opinion. >> >>I'm not sure what your family members think you will gain by moving >>back to Florida, but it sounds like they don't quite understand what >>you have in Denver or what problems you faced in Florida. Again, it is >>your decision, not theirs. >> >>Best, >>Arielle >> >>On 11/20/13, justin williams wrote: >>>Beth, do your thing. I don't know whether you should or shouldn't date the >>>man, but if you like him, then enjoy the moment and see where it takes you. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Beth Taurasi >>>Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:01 AM >>>To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>Subject: [nabs-l] family's misunderstandings of the real world >>> >>>Hi, all. >>>I was recently Facebook chatting my cousin and she accused me of doing the >>>following things: >>>1. Obsession with my latest boyfriend, who she might have a problem with >>>because he is blind. >>>2. She said I should be open to dating sighted people, yes, Arielle, you >>>are >>>married to a sighted man, but not all sighted people like a blind woman, >>>and >>>statistically it isn't true that sighted people will go out with blind >>>women. >>>3. She says that blind people can do things, but she says I don't >>>understand >>>the real world. What? I told her I do understand the real world, I pay my >>>bills, I save money, I work with money. I don't pay taxes because in my >>>understanding of the so-called "real world", SSI is not taxable, and >>>finding >>>a job for me is hard because I am dually disabled. >>>I need help also convincing her that parenting is possible even with my >>>particular disabilities. I've tried referring her to NFB's parenting >>>without Sight thingies, and she doesn't seem interested. I have a lot of >>>friends on here so I'm posing this question. Also, she says I should move >>>back to Florida, but after all this stuff I've been through back there, I >>>said to her, "No. I've got all I need in Denver." >>>Please help. >>>Beth >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >>>.com >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>nabs-l: >>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/denverqueen1107%40comcast.net > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From audioaccess2013 at gmail.com Sat Nov 30 06:34:58 2013 From: audioaccess2013 at gmail.com (David Dunphy) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 01:34:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration Starts Today And You're Invited To Join Us Message-ID: Hi Everybody! Saturday is going to be an interesting day on Audio Access FM. Kick it off at 9 AM eastern with Memory Lane from Big Bob. Then at 12 Noon, we begin our holiday programming and music. At noon eastern, we'll be showing Frosty The Snowman with audio descrition. Then at 12:25PM eastern we'll show Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer, also described. Then at 1:15PM eastern we'll be showing Home Alone, which will be described too! Then at 3 PM eastern since Radio Connection Live is off for the Thanksgiving holiday, enjoy two hours of our holiday automation; Christmas music of all types from all genres, and we'll be adding to the holiday library throughout the month of December. In fact, the automation will be playing all holiday music instead of our normal library whenever a live or pre recorded show isn't on the air until December 26. And we'll be throwing in some Christmas specials along the way too! Then at 5 PM eastern, John Sanders interrupts the holiday automation with his show, followed by The Affection Asylum at 8 PM eastern. So join us for our normal programming, and in between shows, the start of this year's holiday celebration on Audio Access FM! And in addition to the start of holiday music, which can all be heard at http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen be sure to check out our holiday page, which will go live at noon eastern, where you can find out how you can... Sing your favorite Christmas song and maybe win 50 dollars Send an audio Christmas card to that special someone or friend in your life and even attach a song to it while giving back to the station too... Record a holiday greeting for friends or family to be heard in between holiday songs and Christmas commercials on automation and maybe a live show or two Tell us about a gift you'd like to give someone special and maybe we'll help you pay for it! And of course, our Make A Wish Fund Raiser, which you can donate to right now at http://www.audioaccess.fm/makeawish2013 Our holiday page with all the infformation about our Christmas events will go live at noon eastern at http://www.audioaccess.fm/christmas2013 So join us tomorrow, Saturday November 30 2013 for our Saturday lineup and the start of our holiday celebration! Hope to see you there! >From David Dunphy, Station Manager, Audio Access FM http://www.audioaccess.fm From tyler at tysdomain.com Sat Nov 30 16:03:00 2013 From: tyler at tysdomain.com (Littlefield, Tyler) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 11:03:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration Starts Today And You're Invited To Join Us In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <529A0C34.9020009@tysdomain.com> Hello: I feel like I'm subscribed to some audio access list, rather than nabs sometimes. Any chance you could set up a mailing list and put these announcements there? On 11/30/2013 1:34 AM, David Dunphy wrote: > Hi Everybody! > Saturday is going to be an interesting day on Audio Access FM. > Kick it off at 9 AM eastern with Memory Lane from Big Bob. > Then at 12 Noon, we begin our holiday programming and music. > At noon eastern, we'll be showing Frosty The Snowman with audio descrition. > Then at 12:25PM eastern we'll show Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer, also described. > Then at 1:15PM eastern we'll be showing Home Alone, which will be described too! > > Then at 3 PM eastern since Radio Connection Live is off for the Thanksgiving holiday, enjoy two hours of our holiday automation; Christmas music of all types from all genres, and we'll be adding to the holiday library throughout the month of December. In fact, the automation will be playing all holiday music instead of our normal library whenever a live or pre recorded show isn't on the air until December 26. And we'll be throwing in some Christmas specials along the way too! > > Then at 5 PM eastern, John Sanders interrupts the holiday automation with his show, followed by The Affection Asylum at 8 PM eastern. > So join us for our normal programming, and in between shows, the start of this year's holiday celebration on Audio Access FM! > And in addition to the start of holiday music, which can all be heard at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen > be sure to check out our holiday page, which will go live at noon eastern, where you can find out how you can... > > Sing your favorite Christmas song and maybe win 50 dollars > > Send an audio Christmas card to that special someone or friend in your life and even attach a song to it while giving back to the station too... > > Record a holiday greeting for friends or family to be heard in between holiday songs and Christmas commercials on automation and maybe a live show or two > > Tell us about a gift you'd like to give someone special and maybe we'll help you pay for it! > And of course, our Make A Wish Fund Raiser, which you can donate to right now at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/makeawish2013 > > Our holiday page with all the infformation about our Christmas events will go live at noon eastern at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/christmas2013 > So join us tomorrow, Saturday November 30 2013 for our Saturday lineup and the start of our holiday celebration! > Hope to see you there! > From David Dunphy, Station Manager, Audio Access FM > http://www.audioaccess.fm > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sat Nov 30 16:16:12 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 16:16:12 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration Starts Today And You're Invited To Join Us In-Reply-To: <529A0C34.9020009@tysdomain.com> References: , <529A0C34.9020009@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <82b824f1ed7145988f10122fa69b62c2@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> Tyler, since he's a member of our list, he has subscribed this list to the Audio ACcess list. He records our membership calls, and is over Nabslink Audio. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Littlefield, Tyler [tyler at tysdomain.com] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:03 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration Starts Today And You're Invited To Join Us Hello: I feel like I'm subscribed to some audio access list, rather than nabs sometimes. Any chance you could set up a mailing list and put these announcements there? On 11/30/2013 1:34 AM, David Dunphy wrote: > Hi Everybody! > Saturday is going to be an interesting day on Audio Access FM. > Kick it off at 9 AM eastern with Memory Lane from Big Bob. > Then at 12 Noon, we begin our holiday programming and music. > At noon eastern, we'll be showing Frosty The Snowman with audio descrition. > Then at 12:25PM eastern we'll show Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer, also described. > Then at 1:15PM eastern we'll be showing Home Alone, which will be described too! > > Then at 3 PM eastern since Radio Connection Live is off for the Thanksgiving holiday, enjoy two hours of our holiday automation; Christmas music of all types from all genres, and we'll be adding to the holiday library throughout the month of December. In fact, the automation will be playing all holiday music instead of our normal library whenever a live or pre recorded show isn't on the air until December 26. And we'll be throwing in some Christmas specials along the way too! > > Then at 5 PM eastern, John Sanders interrupts the holiday automation with his show, followed by The Affection Asylum at 8 PM eastern. > So join us for our normal programming, and in between shows, the start of this year's holiday celebration on Audio Access FM! > And in addition to the start of holiday music, which can all be heard at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen > be sure to check out our holiday page, which will go live at noon eastern, where you can find out how you can... > > Sing your favorite Christmas song and maybe win 50 dollars > > Send an audio Christmas card to that special someone or friend in your life and even attach a song to it while giving back to the station too... > > Record a holiday greeting for friends or family to be heard in between holiday songs and Christmas commercials on automation and maybe a live show or two > > Tell us about a gift you'd like to give someone special and maybe we'll help you pay for it! > And of course, our Make A Wish Fund Raiser, which you can donate to right now at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/makeawish2013 > > Our holiday page with all the infformation about our Christmas events will go live at noon eastern at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/christmas2013 > So join us tomorrow, Saturday November 30 2013 for our Saturday lineup and the start of our holiday celebration! > Hope to see you there! > From David Dunphy, Station Manager, Audio Access FM > http://www.audioaccess.fm > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccuaedu.onmicrosoft.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Nov 30 18:13:14 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 13:13:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration Starts Today And You're Invited To Join Us In-Reply-To: <529A0C34.9020009@tysdomain.com> References: <529A0C34.9020009@tysdomain.com> Message-ID: <-5572277303446429284@unknownmsgid> Tyler, As Joshua said, David is using this list as yet another vehicle through which he can advertises station. He does not post all audio access FM related announcements here. If you would like to receive all announcements related to the station and it's programming, you can subscribe to the announcements list by clicking on the link from www.audio access.FM. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 30, 2013, at 11:03 AM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > Hello: > I feel like I'm subscribed to some audio access list, rather than nabs sometimes. Any chance you could set up a mailing list and put these announcements there? > >> On 11/30/2013 1:34 AM, David Dunphy wrote: >> Hi Everybody! >> Saturday is going to be an interesting day on Audio Access FM. >> Kick it off at 9 AM eastern with Memory Lane from Big Bob. >> Then at 12 Noon, we begin our holiday programming and music. >> At noon eastern, we'll be showing Frosty The Snowman with audio descrition. >> Then at 12:25PM eastern we'll show Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer, also described. >> Then at 1:15PM eastern we'll be showing Home Alone, which will be described too! >> >> Then at 3 PM eastern since Radio Connection Live is off for the Thanksgiving holiday, enjoy two hours of our holiday automation; Christmas music of all types from all genres, and we'll be adding to the holiday library throughout the month of December. In fact, the automation will be playing all holiday music instead of our normal library whenever a live or pre recorded show isn't on the air until December 26. And we'll be throwing in some Christmas specials along the way too! >> >> Then at 5 PM eastern, John Sanders interrupts the holiday automation with his show, followed by The Affection Asylum at 8 PM eastern. >> So join us for our normal programming, and in between shows, the start of this year's holiday celebration on Audio Access FM! >> And in addition to the start of holiday music, which can all be heard at >> http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen >> be sure to check out our holiday page, which will go live at noon eastern, where you can find out how you can... >> >> Sing your favorite Christmas song and maybe win 50 dollars >> >> Send an audio Christmas card to that special someone or friend in your life and even attach a song to it while giving back to the station too... >> >> Record a holiday greeting for friends or family to be heard in between holiday songs and Christmas commercials on automation and maybe a live show or two >> >> Tell us about a gift you'd like to give someone special and maybe we'll help you pay for it! >> And of course, our Make A Wish Fund Raiser, which you can donate to right now at >> http://www.audioaccess.fm/makeawish2013 >> >> Our holiday page with all the infformation about our Christmas events will go live at noon eastern at >> http://www.audioaccess.fm/christmas2013 >> So join us tomorrow, Saturday November 30 2013 for our Saturday lineup and the start of our holiday celebration! >> Hope to see you there! >> From David Dunphy, Station Manager, Audio Access FM >> http://www.audioaccess.fm >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com Sat Nov 30 18:34:24 2013 From: pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com (Marissa) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 10:34:24 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration StartsToday And You're Invited To Join Us Message-ID: <529a2fe6.29e0440a.5237.ffff9533@mx.google.com> Can this be accessed on the radio? FM radio? ----- Original Message ----- From: christopher nusbaum , National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Hello: I feel like I'm subscribed to some audio access list, rather than nabs sometimes. Any chance you could set up a mailing list and put these announcements there? On 11/30/2013 1:34 AM, David Dunphy wrote: Hi Everybody! Saturday is going to be an interesting day on Audio Access FM. Kick it off at 9 AM eastern with Memory Lane from Big Bob. Then at 12 Noon, we begin our holiday programming and music. At noon eastern, we'll be showing Frosty The Snowman with audio descrition. Then at 12:25PM eastern we'll show Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer, also described. Then at 1:15PM eastern we'll be showing Home Alone, which will be described too! Then at 3 PM eastern since Radio Connection Live is off for the Thanksgiving holiday, enjoy two hours of our holiday automation; Christmas music of all types from all genres, and we'll be adding to the holiday library throughout the month of December. In fact, the automation will be playing all holiday music instead of our normal library whenever a live or pre recorded show isn't on the air until December 26. And we'll be throwing in some Christmas specials along the way too! Then at 5 PM eastern, John Sanders interrupts the holiday automation with his show, followed by The Affection Asylum at 8 PM eastern. So join us for our normal programming, and in between shows, the start of this year's holiday celebration on Audio Access FM! And in addition to the start of holiday music, which can all be heard at http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen be sure to check out our holiday page, which will go live at noon eastern, where you can find out how you can... Sing your favorite Christmas song and maybe win 50 dollars Send an audio Christmas card to that special someone or friend in your life and even attach a song to it while giving back to the station too... Record a holiday greeting for friends or family to be heard in between holiday songs and Christmas commercials on automation and maybe a live show or two Tell us about a gift you'd like to give someone special and maybe we'll help you pay for it! And of course, our Make A Wish Fund Raiser, which you can donate to right now at http://www.audioaccess.fm/makeawish2013 Our holiday page with all the infformation about our Christmas events will go live at noon eastern at http://www.audioaccess.fm/christmas2013 So join us tomorrow, Saturday November 30 2013 for our Saturday lineup and the start of our holiday celebration! Hope to see you there! From David Dunphy, Station Manager, Audio Access FM http://www.audioaccess.fm _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdo main.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pianogirlforl ife7%40gmail.com From dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com Sat Nov 30 18:38:28 2013 From: dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com (christopher nusbaum) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 13:38:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration StartsToday And You're Invited To Join Us In-Reply-To: <529a2fe6.29e0440a.5237.ffff9533@mx.google.com> References: <529a2fe6.29e0440a.5237.ffff9533@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <-7453120870168672554@unknownmsgid> No, it's internetradio and can only be accessed via a computer or smart phone with an Internet connection. Chris Nusbaum Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 30, 2013, at 1:36 PM, Marissa wrote: > > > Can this be accessed on the radio? FM radio? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: christopher nusbaum To: "tyler at tysdomain.com" , National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 13:13:14 -0500 > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration StartsToday And You're Invited To Join Us > > Tyler, > > As Joshua said, David is using this list as yet another vehicle > through which he can advertises station. He does not post all audio > access FM related announcements here. If you would like to receive all > announcements related to the station and it's programming, you can > subscribe to the announcements list by clicking on the link from > www.audio access.FM. > > Chris Nusbaum > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 30, 2013, at 11:03 AM, "Littlefield, Tyler" wrote: > > Hello: > I feel like I'm subscribed to some audio access list, rather than nabs sometimes. Any chance you could set up a mailing list and put these announcements there? > > On 11/30/2013 1:34 AM, David Dunphy wrote: > Hi Everybody! > Saturday is going to be an interesting day on Audio Access FM. > Kick it off at 9 AM eastern with Memory Lane from Big Bob. > Then at 12 Noon, we begin our holiday programming and music. > At noon eastern, we'll be showing Frosty The Snowman with audio descrition. > Then at 12:25PM eastern we'll show Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer, also described. > Then at 1:15PM eastern we'll be showing Home Alone, which will be described too! > > Then at 3 PM eastern since Radio Connection Live is off for the Thanksgiving holiday, enjoy two hours of our holiday automation; Christmas music of all types from all genres, and we'll be adding to the holiday library throughout the month of December. In fact, the automation will be playing all holiday music instead of our normal library whenever a live or pre recorded show isn't on the air until December 26. And we'll be throwing in some Christmas specials along the way too! > > Then at 5 PM eastern, John Sanders interrupts the holiday automation with his show, followed by The Affection Asylum at 8 PM eastern. > So join us for our normal programming, and in between shows, the start of this year's holiday celebration on Audio Access FM! > And in addition to the start of holiday music, which can all be heard at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen > be sure to check out our holiday page, which will go live at noon eastern, where you can find out how you can... > > Sing your favorite Christmas song and maybe win 50 dollars > > Send an audio Christmas card to that special someone or friend in your life and even attach a song to it while giving back to the station too... > > Record a holiday greeting for friends or family to be heard in between holiday songs and Christmas commercials on automation and maybe a live show or two > > Tell us about a gift you'd like to give someone special and maybe we'll help you pay for it! > And of course, our Make A Wish Fund Raiser, which you can donate to right now at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/makeawish2013 > > Our holiday page with all the infformation about our Christmas events will go live at noon eastern at > http://www.audioaccess.fm/christmas2013 > So join us tomorrow, Saturday November 30 2013 for our Saturday lineup and the start of our holiday celebration! > Hope to see you there! > From David Dunphy, Station Manager, Audio Access FM > http://www.audioaccess.fm > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdo > main.com > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. > Sent from my Toaster (tm). > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau > m%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pianogirlforl > ife7%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbaum%40gmail.com From JLester8462 at pccua.edu Sat Nov 30 18:40:20 2013 From: JLester8462 at pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 18:40:20 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration StartsToday And You're Invited To Join Us In-Reply-To: <529a2fe6.29e0440a.5237.ffff9533@mx.google.com> References: <529a2fe6.29e0440a.5237.ffff9533@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <3386104256c24d058a9842957a36a7fe@BLUPR07MB258.namprd07.prod.outlook.com> No. It's just an online station. Blessings, Joshua ________________________________________ From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Marissa [pianogirlforlife7 at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 12:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; tyler at tysdomain.com Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT: The Audio Access FM Christmas Celebration StartsToday And You're Invited To Join Us Can this be accessed on the radio? FM radio? ----- Original Message ----- From: christopher nusbaum , National Association of Blind Students mailing list wrote: Hello: I feel like I'm subscribed to some audio access list, rather than nabs sometimes. Any chance you could set up a mailing list and put these announcements there? On 11/30/2013 1:34 AM, David Dunphy wrote: Hi Everybody! Saturday is going to be an interesting day on Audio Access FM. Kick it off at 9 AM eastern with Memory Lane from Big Bob. Then at 12 Noon, we begin our holiday programming and music. At noon eastern, we'll be showing Frosty The Snowman with audio descrition. Then at 12:25PM eastern we'll show Rudolph The Red Nosed Reindeer, also described. Then at 1:15PM eastern we'll be showing Home Alone, which will be described too! Then at 3 PM eastern since Radio Connection Live is off for the Thanksgiving holiday, enjoy two hours of our holiday automation; Christmas music of all types from all genres, and we'll be adding to the holiday library throughout the month of December. In fact, the automation will be playing all holiday music instead of our normal library whenever a live or pre recorded show isn't on the air until December 26. And we'll be throwing in some Christmas specials along the way too! Then at 5 PM eastern, John Sanders interrupts the holiday automation with his show, followed by The Affection Asylum at 8 PM eastern. So join us for our normal programming, and in between shows, the start of this year's holiday celebration on Audio Access FM! And in addition to the start of holiday music, which can all be heard at http://www.audioaccess.fm/listen be sure to check out our holiday page, which will go live at noon eastern, where you can find out how you can... Sing your favorite Christmas song and maybe win 50 dollars Send an audio Christmas card to that special someone or friend in your life and even attach a song to it while giving back to the station too... Record a holiday greeting for friends or family to be heard in between holiday songs and Christmas commercials on automation and maybe a live show or two Tell us about a gift you'd like to give someone special and maybe we'll help you pay for it! And of course, our Make A Wish Fund Raiser, which you can donate to right now at http://www.audioaccess.fm/makeawish2013 Our holiday page with all the infformation about our Christmas events will go live at noon eastern at http://www.audioaccess.fm/christmas2013 So join us tomorrow, Saturday November 30 2013 for our Saturday lineup and the start of our holiday celebration! Hope to see you there! From David Dunphy, Station Manager, Audio Access FM http://www.audioaccess.fm _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdo main.com -- Take care, Ty http://tds-solutions.net He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave. Sent from my Toaster (tm). _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dotkid.nusbau m%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pianogirlforl ife7%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccua.edu From carlymih at comcast.net Sat Nov 30 21:35:11 2013 From: carlymih at comcast.net (Carly Mihalakis) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 13:35:11 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, Tyler, Can't this student try working it out with instructors involved? Personally, I aggree. It's like atttacking something with an A-bomb, those lawsuits. Mellow out, guys!/2013, justin williams wrote: >Where should she take it? > >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >Tyler >Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > >Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but why >not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue lets >sue o yeah lawsuit!" >On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Bridget! > > Good grief! > > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >Danielson, and get the NFB involved! > > Can anyone say lawsuit? > > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >but it looks like you have! > > Good grief! > > Blessings, Joshua > > ________________________________________ > > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey > > [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] > > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM > > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues > > > > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and >most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to >work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that >had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue >or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >"illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them >know that you know your rights. > > > > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! > > > > Bobbi A. L. Pompey > > (336) 988-6375 > > pompey2010 at yahoo.com > > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey > > > >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >wrote: > >> > >> Hi everyone, > >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a >TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. > >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >least that's how the semester starts. > >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are >not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >focus on one disability and not the other? > >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating >for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. > >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with >DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I >sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >don't care. > >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The >professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and >can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail >for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter >grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to >the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part >there is already documentation about my disability at DS. > >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math >lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven >it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >downgrading my technology for a book. > >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? > >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests >with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. > >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? > >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and >I get nowhere. > >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. > >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. > >> Thanks > >> Bridget > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPad > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho > >> o.com > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu > > a.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: > > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. > > com > > >-- >Take care, >Ty >http://tds-solutions.net >He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >dares not reason is a slave. > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >.com > > >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net From bridgetawalker13 at aol.com Sat Nov 30 22:29:15 2013 From: bridgetawalker13 at aol.com (Bridget Walker) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2013 17:29:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues In-Reply-To: <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> References: <37D7FA92-21AA-4F01-957D-6601A88FE2A9@yahoo.com> <528F6FCB.9090704@tysdomain.com> <000d01cee793$73534990$59f9dcb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Carly, Tyler, and all, I agree with Carly and Tyler. I am not about to go after anyone. I am doing all I can to keep things small. I am having several meetings with professors and administrators to get things back on track. I would never take this so far as to call for reinforcements unless I was really getting no where. It is not easy and sometimes I feel like I am talking to a wall but, I am making progress. Sent from my iPad > On Nov 30, 2013, at 4:35 PM, Carly Mihalakis wrote: > > > Hi, Tyler, > > Can't this student try working it out with instructors involved? Personally, I aggree. It's like atttacking something with an A-bomb, those lawsuits. > Mellow out, guys!/2013, justin williams wrote: >> Where should she take it? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Littlefield, >> Tyler >> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 9:53 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >> >> Why is it that instead of working on alternative options, everyone jumps >> straight for a lawsuit? Maybe she has went through a ton of options, but why >> not take it higher rather than say "o gawd nfb time lets sue lets sue lets >> sue o yeah lawsuit!" >> On 11/22/2013 4:49 AM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> > Bridget! >> > Good grief! >> > You've already gone the nice route, so now it's time to contact Chris >> Danielson, and get the NFB involved! >> > Can anyone say lawsuit? >> > I wouldn't reckomend suing unless you've exhausted all of your options, >> but it looks like you have! >> > Good grief! >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Bobbi Pompey >> > [pompey2010 at yahoo.com] >> > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 1:54 AM >> > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need some help college issues >> > >> > This is ridiculous. Based on the info provided, you have spoken with DS >> and professors. And both haven given you I ignorant, insensitive, rude, and >> most importantly illegal feedback. In my opinion this is the proper time to >> work your way up the chain of command. Talk to the head of >> departments/colleges that the class falls under. Talk to the department >> chair over DS. And need be, talk to the Chanselor. Document everything that >> had occurred and remind them of their legal obligations. I'm not saying sue >> or threaten to sue them. But in my experiences, Judy saying the word >> "illegal" scares them because they don't want a lawsuit. Plus it lets them >> know that you know your rights. >> > >> > I've had similar situations and this is what I did. I hope this helps! >> > >> > Bobbi A. L. Pompey >> > (336) 988-6375 >> > pompey2010 at yahoo.com >> > http://pompey2050.wix.com/bobbi-pompey >> > >> >> On Nov 22, 2013, at 12:26 AM, Bridget Walker >> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi everyone, >> >> I have reached a point where I need all the help I can get. First it >> helps to have some background. My primary disability is blindness due to a >> TBI. I have another component to my condition which is spastic CP. >> >> So I am now a junior, an education major, and think I have it all. At >> least that's how the semester starts. >> >> I need to know what do I do if due to my secondary disabilities that are >> not blindness professors either refuse to accommodate me all together or >> focus on one disability and not the other? >> >> My next question is in the area of equal access. I am all for advocating >> for yourself in this area and using whatever you have to get the job done. >> >> One of my professors uses google sites and although I made her along with >> DS aware of the accessibility problem I am still required to use the site. I >> sent everyone the letter Sean sent the list with my explanation but they >> don't care. >> >> Now we move on to art. I'm taking a sculpture class nice and tactile. The >> professor refuses to grade me because I'm blind and have CP. I can't see and >> can't move my hands the way other people do. She said I receive a pass fail >> for the class and am required to do everything but not for an actual letter >> grade. She told me at the start I can see powerpoints. Ok no if I read >> Braille, have a guide dog, and get migraines when I use my eyes I don't >> think I can see. DS didn't even back me up I had to bring my eye report to >> the head of the art department to prove my disability. Let's add in the part >> there is already documentation about my disability at DS. >> >> Finally we get to math. Let me say I knew math was going to be a >> challenge. My book is I not accessible on my math lab with jaws 15. The >> college wanted me to downgrade my screen reader and my IE version so my math >> lab might work. I tested it with an older version of jaws and windows seven >> it is not compatible as far spas I know. Bigger point I should not be >> downgrading my technology for a book. >> >> Then to have them say what is the big deal? >> >> We have an embosser on campus. We are lucky. I have Braille as an >> accommodation but, we need someone to Braille my tests because I can't >> that's not ok and DS is not trained. DS has brailled before and did well >> they just won't do it I guess a confidence thing. So I have to take my tests >> with jaws. Jaws and math are not a good combo. >> >> I just want to know what do people think of all of this? >> >> I have met with as many resources on campus to reach a common ground and >> I get nowhere. >> >> I have a year and a half left. I don't want it to be like this. >> >> I feel like I take five steps forward and ten steps back. >> >> Thanks >> >> Bridget >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pompey2010%40yaho >> >> o.com >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40pccu >> > a.edu >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain. >> > com >> >> >> -- >> Take care, >> Ty >> http://tds-solutions.net >> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that >> dares not reason is a slave. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/justin.williams2%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com