[nabs-l] guide dog debate again: was Re: Over Night College Visit

Sun Nov 10 22:54:34 UTC 2013

I've changed the subject line of this thread so that maybe lizzy can get 
more good information without more spurious facts being given.

Josh:
You've told us a lot about how it is in the sticks where you're from, 
and I'm sorry you've came into contact with handlers who do not take 
care of their dogs. Truth is though, while I've seen some aweful 
handlers I've seen some really good handlers. We are getting off topic 
here and this has nothing to do with lizzy's origenal question, but most 
dogs will not do this. It seems like you're coming to these threads with 
these misconceptions which you point out again and again on every thread 
which vaguely talks about guide dogs. While there are dogs who do go to 
the bathroom in doors from time to time, this is not the norm. I find it 
rude and at least somewhat close minded then, to continually ignore 
those good dogs who you may have came into contact with.

Ashley:
I am a bit concerned at your logical conclusion that someone who has a 
guide will remain forever lonely and not have the life you white-cane 
users will have, just because they may have a dog. Again with the 
misconceptions, but let me try to clear some things up for you, always 
assuming that you will bother to read and process it.

First, you can threaten to sue someone all you want, but I'm having 
trouble picturing this suit go to court. Perhaps you and Josh should 
exchange emails so you can keep this crap off list, but I digress.

A dog will generally sniff at people, and I've not really found anyone 
who it's a problem for. If they don't like it, either the person with 
the issue or myself can move and that's that. It's not a sign of bad 
manners, but more a sign of the dog being curious. This really isn't 
disruptive by any means--if this is an issue one just has to mention it 
to the handler.

As to your licks, sniffs, barks and jumps, O my!
If you pet a dog, it will probably lick you, so I recommend you don't 
actually pet the dog if you don't want to be licked. I don't remember 
O'Mally ever just randomly licking someone unless they were giving him 
attention, in which case that's your own problem yourself. Dogs also 
don't tend to just jump on random people unless they know them, which is 
again something the handler should work on. As for the barks, I've never 
in the more than two years I've had O'Mally heard him bark in public, 
nor have I ever seen other dogs do this during training or hwen I came 
into contact with them. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it is 
uncommon.

What it basically comes down to is this. You, Josh and others prefer the 
cane; if that is your prefered mode of travel, I could honestly care 
less as long as you are comfortable with it. I am, however getting tired 
of hearing tall tales about a dog who once went to the bathroom in a 
public place and your assumptions. The chance of a dog going to the 
bathroom in public is fairly unlikely, but then again so is getting 
struck by lightning. I therefore recommend you stay indoors!

Now, I'd like to address one other point before I sign off. Peter has 
not been kind enough to enlighten me as to the depths of his vast guide 
handling and/or training experiences, but I'll address the message he sent.

When one attends a training program, the goal of that program is to 
teach you the basic skills you will need in order to work with your 
guide as a team. You will not leave knowing everything there is to know 
about guide work, just as one who attends a few mobility lessons will 
not leave knowing everything there is to travel. To add to this, having 
a new guide is challenging. Not only are these guides puppies generally, 
but they will also do what they can to test you and figure out the 
bounds of what they can and can not do. it takes a handler and their 
guide a while to become comfortable with their work and work well 
together. This is a lot of givve and take on both sides, but from my own 
experiences I can honestly say that the time when you begin to connect 
with your guide is amazing. The thing also to remember here is unlike 
canes your guides do have a mind of their own, and they might have their 
off days, just like anyone else.

With all of this said, I do not believe it is right or even proper to 
sit here and trash a handler who you do not know, or have never seen 
work. If you have no experience in one of these training programs or 
working with a guide, it is a bit insane to assume that because one does 
not graduate with your vast knowledge, their handling skills are thus 
somewhat inferior or should be questioned.
On 11/10/2013 5:32 PM, Joshua Lester wrote:
> Great post, Ashley!
> Also, what about the dogs that do their mess anywhere they want to, or roam around the room, when not being handled?
> That has happened way too much where I'm from!
> Train them correctly, and expect them to act right!
> You wouldn't believe the number of times I've accidently stepped in dog, (don't even go there,) at conventions, and at World Services for the Blind!
> Most of these dogs, I knew came from a certain dog school, in CA, because that's where most of those trainees at WSB, when I was there, got them!
> That's the handlers' fault, and they should be doing their jobs!
> Thank God this hasn't happened at the NFB conventions I attended!
> Blessings, Joshua
> ________________________________________
> From: nabs-l [nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] on behalf of Ashley Bramlett [bookwormahb at earthlink.net]
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:21 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> Mark,
> I guess we won't agree. But I cannot help from making a point again.
> I have been offended by  disruptive guide dogs.
> I would say to Lizzy to take the dog if it were not so new. I would have no
> problem with her with a dog on a new campus if it did not sniff people or
> exhibit other behavior she mentioned.
> I fully support taking a dog to college if you will live and stay there.
>
> You can say its people's problem for being offended all your life, but when
> you are lonely or do not get a job because of your dog's behavior, you might
> think again.
>
> I respect guide dog handlers and do know its their right to have them in
> public places. However, I think with legal rights comes responsibility. You
> have the responsibility to keep your dog well groomed and behaving like a
> working dog. This means no licks, no sniffs, and no jumps. Oh, and should I
> mention barks?
> Yes, dogs will get excited with new people I know, even guide dogs. But to
> what extent should people put up with the dog in a professional setting
> before saying enough is enough? It’s a hard line to draw. With rights comes
> responsibility.
> I think you have to consider others too even though its your right to have a
> guide dog.
>
> Ashley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark J. Cadigan
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 4:11 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Perhaps you should ask your question on the National Association of Guide
> Dog Users (NAGDU) list serve. All the people on the NAGDU list are
> themselves guide dog handlers, and have first hand experience to draw from
> when giving advice.
>
>
>
> Me personally, I am a guide dog handler, and current college student. I
> would definitely take my dog with me on the college visit, and in fact I
> have gone on college visits with my guide dog in the past. What people say
> about informing the college that you have a guide dog and requesting
> accommodations for printed materials is good advice. I would definitely do
> so, not only to make your life easier while on the college visit, but to get
> an idea of the school's willingness to work with you when you are a student.
>
>
>
> My theory about people not liking my guide dog is that it is there problem
> and not mine. I have the legal right to be accompanied by my guide dog, and
> if someone is offended for whatever reason to bad for them. That being said,
> you have to be polite to the people who are offended, however you should
> stand your ground, and never back down on your rights.
>
>
>
> The people who think it is a simple decision to leave your dog with someone
> while on the college visit, are clearly not dog handlers, and have no clue
> what they are talking about. That being said, when you have your dog on the
> college visit, it is your responsibility to be firm with the dog, and not
> let it test you. People may object to you correcting your dog, but they are
> just ignorant, and do your best to politely ignore them.
>
>
>
> Feel free to email me off list
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "lizzy" <lizzym0827 at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2013 10:44 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Over Night College Visit
>
>
>> Hi All,
>> I usually just read the outstanding advice given on this list, but now I
>> am in need of some help.  I am currently a senior in high school going not
>> for my first college visit, but to my first over night visit and it is at
>> my number one choice school.  To all of the guide dog users, I've had my
>> lab for about three and a half months now but I'm still undecided about if
>> it would be fair and easier to take her with me on this trip.  My reasons
>> are that I don't know the campus and so she would probably be doing a lot
>> of following (which I know everyone has their own opinions about).  I've
>> taught her things using the cane but it has usually been pretty simple (a
>> specific doorway, bus stop etc) so I'm not sure if it'll work for this or
>> not (since I'll be all over campus).  Also, her behavior is slightly
>> unpredictable (typically she is very excited around new people and she is
>> very sniffy in new places which interferes with her work and doesn't make
>> her look like a trained dog).  I will be sitting in on a class, doing an
>> interview, meeting with the department chair and rooming with a current
>> student and I'm afraid she might offend someone who doesn't like dogs or
>> vice versa someone may see me give a correction and be upset by it.  I
>> haven't requested any accommodations because I don't really think I'll
>> need any since I'll be there for less than twenty-four hours.  But is
>> there anything I'm forgetting? Should I tell them ahead of time about the
>> dog (if I decide to take her)? Any tips you all could give would be
>> greatly appreciated.
>> Thanks,
>> Lizzy
>>
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-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.