[nabs-l] Training centers not the real world

Wed Nov 13 01:19:42 UTC 2013

RJ,
I have to respectfully disagree with you here.
I would be careful with the generalizations. You came in asking whether 
training centers could be beneficial. After receiving differing 
opinions, it now appears that you had your mind made up anyway, so why 
did you ask? I don't mean that as a criticism, I honestly am curious.
But it seems to me that people have made the case for why they found 
training centers to be helpful. As Arielle said, though, most of the 
"evidence" you'll find in discussions of this nature is purely 
anecdotal. If it's cold, hard facts you want, it's sad to say, but you 
won't find them in this area. That's just how it is. But to devalue the 
experiences of others is something that I feel is wrong. I don't agree 
with many of the policies of NFB training centers; however, I feel like 
I can question such policies without attacking the people who benefitted 
from them or making people uncomfortable.
I hope that you took something away from this discussion, even if it 
just cemented the fact in your mind that a training center isn't right 
for you.

On 11/12/2013 7:25 PM, RJ Sandefur wrote:
> Well, I still stand by my statement Their is the real world and I learned my
> cane travel and other blindness skills in the real world and not at some
> training center NFB or otherwise! The reality is when rehab said
>   atempt college, I did it any way. The reality is, when rehab said that
> ministry was not a realistic goal for a blind person, I am actually doing
> it. The reality is I just graduated with a 3.8  from the seminary where
> their were not any student disabilities services. Training centers for y.
> the blind... what a joke! That's putting it bluntly.
> -- That is reality! --- Original Message -----
> From: "Desiree Oudinot" <turtlepower17 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>
>
>> Hi all,
>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there
>> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle.
>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect
>> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be
>> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question
>> seemed to imply that this happened regularly.
>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but
>> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly
>> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve
>> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up,
>> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope
>> that this is a priority.
>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large,
>> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being
>> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional
>> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge
>> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who
>> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems
>> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing
>> down like a house of cards!
>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't
>> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind
>> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy.
>>
>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote:
>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In
> fact, some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was
> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana Center
> for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively than
> anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at  all, it is from individuals
> in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of its training
> centers. While  I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some folks in the
> federation, I would encourage you not to paint the organization was such a
> large brush, especially when you're generalization is not accurate.
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good morning,
>>>>
>>>>          After associating with, both on and off school time with
> students  at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of
> what being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life
> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until much
> later but dished out a round of brain damage instead.
>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped"
> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw at
> it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car 408-209-3239wrote:
>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't
> able to
>>>>> attend a center.RJ
>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have
> a
>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave
> Florida,
>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive
>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have
>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I
>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term.  When we refer to training
>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana
>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind
> Inc.
>>>>>>    Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond,
> and
>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different.
>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of
>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills.
>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to
>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy
>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center
>>>>>> directors.  They're all great people, and could probably do the best
>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer.  ;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what
> Bridgit
>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in  every state. I know
> a
>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great
>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first
> as
>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent
> contractors
>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very
> least,
>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with
>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those
> of
>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help
> most
>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least.
>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain
>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down
> in
>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in
> school
>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to
>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address,
>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who
>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to
>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance
> if
>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community
>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really
> designed
>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to
>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of
> academic
>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't
> know
>>>>>>>> exactly how.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it
>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I
> was
>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or
> not,
>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have
> helped
>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that
> is a
>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of
>>>>> listing
>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills
> or
>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one
>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> RJ,
>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to  a center graduate and
>>>>> you'll
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where
> rehabilitation
>>>>>>>>>>> centers
>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my
> sight
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially
>>>>>>>>>>>> children,
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted
> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical
> reasoning
>>>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability.
> Some
>>>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this
> way,
>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people
>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille,
>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized
>>>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills
> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the
>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you
> present
>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based
>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
>>>>>>>>>>>> polite,
>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room
>>>>>>> appearing
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and
>>>>> mentally,
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human
>>>>>>> nature.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience
> afforded
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit
> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer
> people
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy
> as
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself
> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this
>>>>>>> background,
>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do
>>>>> better
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit
>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep
>>>>>>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need
> to
>>>>>>> gain
>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these
>>>>>>>>>>>> success
>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain
>>>>> employment
>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and
> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few
>>>>> years
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I
>>>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was
>>>>> one
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together;
>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too
>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach
>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't
>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from
>>>>> society
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had
>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go
>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the
> independence
>>>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good
> without
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm
>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.
>>>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm
>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett
>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm
>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmai
>>>>> l.com
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm
>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carlymih%40comcast.net
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile
> .net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.co
> m
>> --
>> Desiree
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm
> ail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/turtlepower17%40gmail.com
>

-- 
Desiree