[nabs-l] Training centers not the real world

Wed Nov 13 01:23:35 UTC 2013

Yes, I do think that docking pay or telling someone to change their 
clothes are fair. But it's really all in how it's done.
Furthermore, the part of the message in question that I took issue with 
is, and I'm paraphrasing but the basic idea is intact, that personal 
boundaries were often crossed. I don't know in what context this was 
meant, but even as a blanket statement, that is not ok in my book.

On 11/12/2013 7:46 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
> Desiree and Ashley,
>
> You bring up some very good points.  I also don't know which message
> this comment was in, but it could also be one person's perception of
> the centers.
>
> In thinking about it, I can see why they dock pay for late arrival,
> and make you change into clean clothes if you do not come in them, as
> that teaches professionalism to those who might not have it already.
> But, it depends on what the criticism is, and how it's being dished
> out.  Or, it could just be that certain people take things that aren't
> meant to be criticisms more harshly than they are meant to be.
> However, the centers do have students with psychological disorders and
> other disabilities in addition to blindness, so I agree they need to
> be mindful of that if what was said is truly the case.
>
> Again, I think the best people to ask about these sorts of things are
> the directors themselves.
>
> I have never heard of someone being scorned in the federation for
> having multiple disabilities, and think that if the federation were to
> do so it would be totally counterintuitive to the disability rights
> efforts going on.  A lot of the laws the NFB is trying to push through
> are not just for blind people, but for people with all kinds of
> disabilities.  "Fair wages for workers with disabilities act," not
> "fair wages for blind workers."  The Teach act is the same way, and so
> on and so forth.  I agree that if you experienced this, it was
> probably just individuals who don't have a very good perspective on
> disabilities, not the fault of the organization itself.
>
> On 11/12/13, Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Desiree,
>> Good question; I think Gedi said what you're refering to.
>> At the center you attended, did they give constructive critisism?
>> If you were dressed inappropriately or had stains on your clothes, did they
>>
>> say something and have you change?
>> I know you told me on another list they taught and expected good eating
>> skills at pittsburg; that is good.
>>
>> I've also heard nfb centers are harsh, and I, too, wonder how on earth you
>> can build self esteem then.
>> Also, since you are not explicitly taught, its structured discovery, it
>> seems to me that the failures and mistakes you'd make would not garner self
>>
>> confidence. I know if I spend two hours in cooking class and my food came
>> out wrong like sour or something, I would feel terrible.
>> I have a psychological trait as a perfectionist.
>> So I fail to see how this guess work of structured discovery helpus and
>> harshness certainly does not help me.
>> My feelings get hurt easily  and then I engage in bad behaviors. I easily am
>>
>> stressed out and have anxiety.
>> I do not take pressure well.
>>
>> So, I'd rather be in a center which has a more nurturing environment. I'm
>> not saying the nfb center way is wrong, just that, maybe for some people,
>> the tough approach, being thrown to the wolves sort of speak, would not be
>> the best fit for all of us.
>>
>> I had a taste of structured discovery in richmond and it was awful. I was
>> not wearing those awful sleepshades on solo lessons, still, I felt
>> disoriented and very vunerable.
>> You never know what crazys are in the city. I would listen to the traffic
>> and could not tell if it was my turn to cross; this is because you need a
>> surge of traffic, and no surge came; other times, many cars came, but some
>> turned and I did not know if it was safe. so I got sighted assistance.
>> I did not feel very confident about my abilities but rather lost; I have
>> problems with spatial directions and O&M is always my weak area.
>> I did gain a little confidence when going to the malls; I was dropped off at
>>
>> malls and told to find certain stores and meet the instructor at a certain
>> department.
>> I did that with some issues, but did make it. It helped me feel better about
>>
>> my indoor travel; I was able to remember and perform the directions
>> strangers gave me. so since I was successful in that  endeavor, I think it
>> was helpful. But not for outside travel.
>>
>> Anyway, good question desiree. can I write off list to this address? We
>> should chat about the PA center.
>> Ashley
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Desiree Oudinot
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:32 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I apologize for not quoting the message I wish to speak about, but there
>> are so many that I've somehow lost it in the shuffle.
>> Someone, I can't remember who it was now, said something to the effect
>> that when one goes to a training center, they can expect to be
>> criticized, both constructively and harshly. The message in question
>> seemed to imply that this happened regularly.
>> Please forgive me if I have this wrong, and I sincerely hope I do, but
>> what, exactly, is a person supposed to get out of being harshly
>> criticized by staff who are supposed to be helping the students achieve
>> their goals? Positive affirmations go a long way in building someone up,
>> and if that's what the NFB centers are supposed to do, I should hope
>> that this is a priority.
>> If tearing someone to the ground is a reflection of the world at large,
>> how is this supposed to help students gain self-esteem? People, being
>> people, have varying degrees of resilience, varying levels of emotional
>> sensitivity, and are already being asked to push their limits in a huge
>> way while training. And let's not even get into things like people who
>> have depression or another form of mental health difficulty. This seems
>> like a fragile time indeed. Not something you would want to go blowing
>> down like a house of cards!
>> I apologize for the strong tone of this message, but I really don't
>> think that encouraging people to believe that the world is out to remind
>> them of their faults on a daily basis is very healthy.
>>
>> On 11/12/2013 6:10 PM, Jedi Moerke wrote:
>>> The Federation does not scorn people with multiple disabilities. In fact,
>>>
>>> some of our best students have multiple disabilities. I myself was
>>> involved in training a couple of them while I worked at the Louisiana
>>> Center for the blind. They were not treated more positively nor negatively
>>>
>>> than  anyone else present. If you felt any scorn at  all, it is from
>>> individuals in the federation, not from the organization itself nor any of
>>>
>>> its training centers. While  I am sorry that you felt disrespected by some
>>>
>>> folks in the federation, I would encourage you not to paint the
>>> organization was such a large brush, especially when you're generalization
>>>
>>> is not accurate.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Carly Mihalakis <carlymih at comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good morning,
>>>>
>>>>          After associating with, both on and off school time with students
>>>>
>>>> at an NFB training center in Colorado, I feel I got a sampling of what
>>>> being steeped in the teachings of the Federation could entail. The life
>>>> path which found me did not include being a student at a center until
>>>> much later but dished out a round of brain damage instead.
>>>> Despite how the Federation pretty openly scorns us "multi handicapped"
>>>> people, I know my brain wouldn't be able to process everything they threw
>>>>
>>>> at it. So, mr. CP, I know your pain.very well for today, Car
>>>> 408-209-3239wrote:
>>>>> You didn't read the thread. Their are some blind people who aren't able
>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> attend a center.RJ
>>>>> I personally attended a center, and that is not my cup of tea. I have a
>>>>> secondary disability which requires I have help. If I were to leave
>>>>> Florida,
>>>>> then I would lose my provider, and my CP is progressive
>>>>> Had my family known about the NFB centers back in 1999, then I'd have
>>>>> attended but it is 20013, and my CP has progressed since then.
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Kaiti Shelton" <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think there is some confusion about what a training center is, so I
>>>>>> will try to more clearly define the term.  When we refer to training
>>>>>> centers, we are speaking specifically about either the Louisiana
>>>>>> Center for the Blind, the Colorado Center for the Blind, or Blind Inc.
>>>>>>    Other rehab agencies, like the Cleveland Sight Center, Richmond, and
>>>>>> Lions World, offer some of the same services but are very different.
>>>>>> To be rehabilitated connotates that blindness is a problem in need of
>>>>>> fixing, but training implies working to more effectively use skills.
>>>>>> The outlook of some staff at rehab agencies is not very good, but to
>>>>>> be trained under those who are well-versed in the positive philosophy
>>>>>> of the NFB is totally different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would encourage you to talk to one of the three training center
>>>>>> directors.  They're all great people, and could probably do the best
>>>>>> job of explaining what the training centers have to offer.  ;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/12/13, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Is this something the NFB could look at as a possibility? RJ
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <arielle71 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 7:33 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think a volunteer-based in-home training program like what Bridgit
>>>>>>>> described would be really excellent to have in  every state. I know
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> bunch of blind folks who are unemployed but who would make great
>>>>>>>> in-home teachers for other blind people. Why not set them up first
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> volunteers, and then allow them to be hired as independent
>>>>>>>> contractors
>>>>>>>> of the state VR once they gain enough experience? At the very least,
>>>>>>>> voc rehab needs to be better about matching blind mentors up with
>>>>>>>> menttes particularly those who cannot go to a formal center. Those
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> us who have other disabilities or health conditions need the help
>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>> and tend to get it least.
>>>>>>>> I will also admit that I've met several NFB center grads who remain
>>>>>>>> unemployed for a long time after graduating, and often settle down
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the town where the center is located but don't participate in school
>>>>>>>> or work. This can happen for many reasons. Some have barriers to
>>>>>>>> employment or higher education that the centers just can't address,
>>>>>>>> like psychiatric conditions, chronic illnesses etc. For others who
>>>>>>>> come to the center from out of state, they find it difficult to
>>>>>>>> integrate what they learn into their old environment, for instance
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> they have over-protective families or a lack of blindness community
>>>>>>>> support where they live. And finally, our centers are really
>>>>>>>> designed
>>>>>>>> to teach access and independence skills but they're not designed to
>>>>>>>> teach job-specific professional skills or much in the way of
>>>>>>>> academic
>>>>>>>> skills. Perhaps our centers could improve on that, though I don't
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> exactly how.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I have often told my employers about blindness training and how it
>>>>>>>>> made me an effective problem solver. Use it to your advantage. I
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> in a quandry of having a school year look blank on my resume or
>>>>>>>>> not,
>>>>>>>>> so I choose to list it. I also explain how my experiences have
>>>>>>>>> helped
>>>>>>>>> me and how they will make me a more effective employee. But that is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> personal choice. I may have missed a few interviews because of
>>>>> listing
>>>>>>>>> it, but I have also gotten some.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cindy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/13, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ashley, the rehab center I attended did not teach any job skills
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> anything. Sure they had us read a bunch of hand outs, but any one
>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> read
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> bunch of hand outs and pass a test! RJ
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:28 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> RJ,
>>>>>>>>>>> They do teach job skills. just talk to  a center graduate and
>>>>> you'll
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> answer.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: RJ Sandefur
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 4:18 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I could be wrong here, but I don't really see where
>>>>>>>>>>> rehabilitation
>>>>>>>>>>> centers
>>>>>>>>>>> are teaching both social and job skills. RJ
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 11:50 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to have had a very fortunate experience. I lost my
>>>>>>>>>>>> sight
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> adult, but in my experience, most blind people, especially
>>>>>>>>>>>> children,
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't have an experience like yours. If more families adopted an
>>>>>>>>>>>> attitude like yours, we may not be having this discussion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And on a side note, I notice few people have analytical
>>>>>>>>>>>> reasoning
>>>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the ability to be self-taught regardless of disability. Some
>>>>>>>>>>>> people,
>>>>>>>>>>>> for whatever reason, don't possess the ability to learn this
>>>>>>>>>>>> way,
>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore requiring a more formal teaching process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And life skills, these can easily be taught to blind people
>>>>> without
>>>>>>>>>>>> shipping off to a specialized training center. But skills like
>>>>>>>>>>>> Braille,
>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive technology, cane travel, etc., these are specialized
>>>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>>>> that are not always easily picked up. It's for these skills that
>>>>>>>>>>>> training centers are necessary.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think how we comport ourselves has a lot to do with how the
>>>>> world
>>>>>>>>>>>> perceives us and our abilities. Right or wrong, when you present
>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself to an employer, they are immediately judging you based
>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> physical appearance. If you walk in well-groomed, confident and
>>>>>>>>>>>> polite,
>>>>>>>>>>>> this goes a long way, sighted or blind. If you enter a room
>>>>>>> appearing
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> not be confident and not looking polished physically and
>>>>> mentally,
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> employer will automatically have red flags. This is just human
>>>>>>> nature.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, sadly, few blind people are provided the experience afforded
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> this department. They don't naturally possess confidence, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> regretfully, many people in their lives do not foster a spirit
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence. So without training centers, I do think fewer people
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>> be employed. This isn't to say that getting a job will be easy
>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>>> blind person because you received training or carry yourself
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> confidence, but your chances certainly are better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And yes, a few studies have been conducted pointing to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> advantage
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> attending a training center for the blind. Those with this
>>>>>>> background,
>>>>>>>>>>>> especially those not taught nonvisual skills beforehand, do
>>>>> better
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> school, employment and life in general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridgit
>>>>>>>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 00:33:06 -0500
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: minh ha <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>>>>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> <CAAJqG9hYUgmy=_M2GLmwOmdknimkhUc6Y=Fgg8fBdHC0z6RX-g at mail.gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep
>>>>>>>>>>>> saying
>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>>> going to one will give blind individuals the skills they need to
>>>>>>> gain
>>>>>>>>>>>> employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how these
>>>>>>>>>>>> success
>>>>>>>>>>>> stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain
>>>>> employment
>>>>>>>>>>>> afterwards because of their new found independence skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers higher than those that do not attend training centers?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's different for me because I had vision for the first few
>>>>> years
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> life, but all the skills that I've acquired over the years, I
>>>>>>> learned
>>>>>>>>>>>> from my family and friends. I remember growing up, cooking was
>>>>> one
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the activities that my best friend and I experimented together;
>>>>> she
>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't know cooking skills either so we played around in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> kitchen
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> taught ourselves how to use a stove, etc. I think we place too
>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility on others--if I want to learn something, I teach
>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>>>> or I ask someone who knows it to teach me. Furthermore, I can't
>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>>>> myself taking 6-9 months to essentially remove myself from
>>>>> society
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on blindness skills so I can gain employment. I have had
>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>> internships and opportunities in college because I actually go
>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>> and network and present myself to potential employers. My point
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience is the best teacher--I can learn all the independence
>>>>>>>>>>>> skills
>>>>>>>>>>>> I need at a center, but it's not going to do me any good without
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Minh
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.
>>>>>>>>>> net
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>>>> ail.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Cindy Bennett
>>>>>>>>> Secretary: National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> B.A. Psychology, UNC Wilmington
>>>>>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/arielle71%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>> l.com
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kaiti
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>> --
>> Desiree
>>
>>
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>

-- 
Desiree