[nabs-l] The Real World... OH REALLY????
Arielle Silverman
arielle71 at gmail.com
Thu Nov 14 00:49:43 UTC 2013
Hi all,
I have never really paid much mind to how the amount of time or effort
I spend on things compares with my sighted classmates and colleagues.
I don't think such comparisons are useful. Everyone has their own set
of strengths and challenges, abilities and disabilities. Maybe it
takes me longer to do math because of accessibility limitations, but I
can probably do it faster and better than someone with less math
aptitude or training. There are some Internet-related tasks that take
me longer than my sighted husband because JAWS gets stalled. However,
there are times when I've read through an article usingJAWS faster
than he has in print. Sighted people vary greatly in how much effort
they require to master a new concept or complete a project. It's just
not productive to try to compare ourselves with some figure that's
supposed to represent all sighted people. I've never given much
thought to the amount of time I spend on work, as long as I have a way
to get it done. Now if something is set up so that it's completely
inaccessible--not just inconvenient but actually impossible to
use--then that's something we should be fighting against. But if the
system is accessible, or if there is an accessible work-around such as
a reader, then I think we need to hold ourselves to the same
productivity standards that others are held to in our chosen
educational or career field.
Best,
Arielle
On 11/13/13, Steve Jacobson <steve.jacobson at visi.com> wrote:
> It is often difficult to know when something that isn't fair should be
> challenged or not. The fact is that having
> a disability isn't fair. Even without a disability, the abilities dealt to
> each of us are not equally useful.
> Life just isn't equally fair to everyone. What needs to be kept in mind is
> that when one is done with school and
> is looking for a job, some things are different. In some sectors, ADA and
> other regulations apply fairly well,
> but in some job situations, there might be little guarantee of reasonable
> accommodations. While an employer can
> be flexible, I know of nothing in the law that requires an employer to give
> one extra time on a project as can be
> granted on tests, for example. The expectation is going to be that if one
> needs more time, one will either make
> it up in other ways or put in some extra time. Many professional jobs do
> not pay overtime, and even if one could
> get paid for working extra, that means that one costs their employer extra
> because of one's blindness.
>
> For this reason, it is a good idea to learn how to deal with less than ideal
> situations while one is in school,
> including time pressures. Certainly there are going to be times when
> something occurs that needs to be
> challenged, but Learning to work with a reader to deal with a short unit
> that requires you to use software that is
> not accessible rather than spending huge amounts of time trying to make the
> software accessible may be a good
> investment since you sometimes have to do that. I just think it is very
> important to realize that some of what
> one experiences as a student is, to some degree, not the real world, and
> choosing on some occasions to learn how
> to deal with an unfair practice might serve one well in the future.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:34:21 -0500, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>
>>If only, Tyler... a like button would be nice, but I agree with you.
>
>>I think what happens far too often, that is the source of all these
>>problems that blind students face, is that they are lazy as Ian said.
>>I have heard my share of stories from people who say, "Well, I
>>shouldn't have to do this because it's not fair," or they try to pawn
>>their responsibilities off on the teacher or some other entity with
>>the parent going to bat for them, vicariously pulling the blind card.
>>I am not saying teachers and others do not have certain
>>responsibilities in the education of blind students, as Ian is right
>>in that a lot of people do, but the student has responsibilities too.
>>It is not always fair; I can remember doing much more work and taking
>>much more time to do it than my sighted classmates, and it is
>>something I am even dealing with now in one of my music theory classes
>>in college. What takes some students an hour can take me three or
>>four, and from what I've seen I seem to have a lot more frustration
>>with it because it is visual and therefore more difficult for me to
>>understand, but that's all we can do if we want to succeed. Work
>>harder, smarter, and be more diligent in our studies and other aspects
>>of our lives than our typical classmates. That is something we will
>>face in the real world, and that is why it is the responsibility of
>>the parents to teach their children this concept at an early age. I
>>wish all parents would reem their kids for this kind of behavior the
>>first time they see it---for me it was about 4th grade, and I credit
>>my parents and my TVI with catching it early and preventing this
>>attitude to prevail through the rest of my education. It has served
>>me well. But, I also credit my parents with fighting for me, for
>>picking up the school's slack at times, and for teaching me all they
>>could. They made sure I got into music theory classes before college
>>so I could come in ahead, they made sure I took AP courses so I could
>>get used to the volume of material that would be covered in a college
>>course, and they helped me to be prepared to be independent and
>>function away from home. Were they perfect? By no means no, but they
>>tried to do the best they could with the things Ian pointed out.
>
>>I think a lot of the responsibility falls on the parents, because they
>>have to oversee the school following through, as well as the child.
>>Parents can make all the difference in the world.
>
>>On 11/13/13, Littlefield, Tyler <tyler at tysdomain.com> wrote:
>>> Ian:
>>> Listserves really need a like button. I agree 1000% with this message,
>>> though I assume those who are "entitled" will just let it whoosh over
>>> their heads and those who understand your point are already putting a
>>> lot of this into practice anyway.
>>>
>>> On 11/13/2013 9:35 AM, I. C. Bray wrote:
>>>> To all of whom have posted on this thread.
>>>>
>>>> While we are all involved in various aspects of our blindness skills,
>>>> education, and professional careers, there is something we all have in
>>>> common. That simple fact is, "We are all different". I myself have
>>>> had
>>>> problems in both Public School, in College, and Adult Blindness
>>>> Training
>>>> Centers.
>>>> Because I am about to speak openly about my feelings, my criticism, and
>>>> my
>>>> objective opinions as a future educator here, I am not going to
>>>> indicate
>>>> which schools I attended.
>>>> I will however indicate the fact that I did not attend any "school for
>>>> the
>>>> Blind".
>>>> Any School for the Blind is designed to develop skills for blind
>>>> students.
>>>> Regardless of the child's ability, aptitude, or intrests. These
>>>> institutions are principally to teach Braille, Slate & Stylus,
>>>> Listening
>>>> Skills, Mobility, and prepare the young students for an eventual High
>>>> School
>>>> equelevant Education. All of this is presumptive that the student is
>>>> capable of attaining that High School Education.
>>>> There are thousands of drop outs who come from many demographic
>>>> conditions
>>>> who are perfectly sighted, motivated, and capable of attaining much
>>>> more
>>>> for
>>>> themselves than a GED some 3 to 10 years later.
>>>> I graduated in the top 25% of my School. There were 556 students in my
>>>> Senior Class that graduated. My rank was 125. I went on to
>>>> Engineering
>>>> School with the full support of my math, physics, and myguidance
>>>> counselors.
>>>> I had to drop out of Engineering school because of Calculus. The plain
>>>> &
>>>> simple truth was that I was not prepared. I lacked the ability to use
>>>> alternative methods of learning. Calculus notes were useless because I
>>>> was
>>>> too busy trying to write down stuff I didn't understand and trying to
>>>> decipher the hyroglyphic nature of a level of Mathematics I did not
>>>> understand the point of.
>>>> Simillarly with Adult Training Schools, there is a point to what they
>>>> are
>>>> trying to do for you that you ARE NOT GOING TO UNDERSTAND until AFTER
>>>> YOU
>>>> ARE FINISHED.
>>>> For whatever reason there is apparent entitlement to services just
>>>> because
>>>> you are afflicted with some drastic or gradual vision impairment is
>>>> absurd.
>>>> The presumption that it is the School's Fault because can't or won't or
>>>> don't cater to every individual's specific expectation of what they
>>>> need,
>>>> want, or feel they deserve is also ridiculous.
>>>> Most of the prevailent attitude about Schools for the Blind are
>>>> correct;
>>>> The
>>>> education is not up to higher Public Education Standards. Simillarly,
>>>> Public Schools ( Elementary, Middle, and Secondary ) are required by
>>>> Federal
>>>> Law to provide EVERY student presented to them a suitable Education.
>>>> At
>>>> this point, is up to parents to fight, fight, fight for their student's
>>>> opportunity. Most of the time, however; this isn't likely to be
>>>> successful
>>>> because parents are not often aware of their options. School Systems
>>>> take
>>>> this fact and use it as a way to avoid spending money they are already
>>>> short
>>>> on toward the specific needs of a substantially small number of
>>>> students.
>>>> College is somewhat of an exception, but you tend to have a larger
>>>> population of young adults seeking services from Disability Resource
>>>> Centers. Here again, unless you have an administration sensitive to
>>>> the
>>>> importance of Fair and Equal opportunities for all students, you are
>>>> STILL
>>>> going to find yourself at the mercy of equipment, time, andinsufficient
>>>> training of instructors.
>>>> I can not find the particular demographic that I heard at one time with
>>>> regard to the number of instructors who have attended "Adaptive
>>>> Curricula"
>>>> seminars, and know that they are required to find some way to modiffy
>>>> or
>>>> enhance their lessons for disabled students, and the actual number of
>>>> those
>>>> who actually do.
>>>> Most rely soley upon the Disability Resource Centers to handle it...
>>>> which
>>>> usually ends up overloading those Centers greatly.
>>>> Fundamentally, the question becomes, "Who is responsible?". The
>>>> truthful
>>>> answer in my not so humble opinion is that it is everyone's
>>>> responsibility.
>>>>
>>>> When you sign up for a program from an NFB Center, or a Voc. Rehab.
>>>> Center,
>>>> or aMainstream Educational facility, YOU are responsible for learning
>>>> the
>>>> material, Jumping through the ridiculousness that often is involved
>>>> with
>>>> textbook and lecture material inaccessibility, and you ar going to have
>>>> to
>>>> utilize whatever protest options available until you are so tired of it
>>>> that
>>>> it seems worthless.
>>>> You must not simply throw your hands up and and give in to the
>>>> mired-down
>>>> attitudes of those who are probably scared or ashamed that they are
>>>> illequipped to help you.
>>>>
>>>> ALWAYS take the high road when dealing with people who are supposed
>>>> to
>>>> help
>>>> you, and when things go wrong, you seek appointments with Department
>>>> Heads,
>>>> University Provosts, and Presidents. When those meetings fail, you go
>>>> to
>>>> the Accredidation boards, the Federal Board of Education where funding
>>>> comes
>>>> from and you write letters... and letters... and letters... and you
>>>> save
>>>> coppies of every one, and every response you receive. Eventually, you
>>>> have
>>>> 80 pounds of paper to take to a lawyer who has the know how and the
>>>> desire
>>>> to make lots of money and you get things worked out.
>>>> Does this suck? YES it does. Is there another way around? Yes there
>>>> is,
>>>> but no one ever thinks about it until it's way too late.
>>>> Make sure that YOU as a consummer / student are not being lazy. Insist
>>>> upon
>>>> having your instructors explain verbally, things that you are not able
>>>> to
>>>> see. Remain professional, and polite at all times. Get a friend to
>>>> take
>>>> pictures so someone can describe them later. When a professor tells
>>>> you
>>>> you
>>>> are not allowed to record his lectures, ignore HIM. He cannot prevent
>>>> it.
>>>> If you are reprimanded for taking matters into your own hands, by that
>>>> Professor, You report him immediately to the Department Head, or
>>>> Provost.
>>>> Keep in mind that you may be wrong, but if you do not bring light to
>>>> the
>>>> situation, then nothing gets seen by sighted people. YOU have to be
>>>> that
>>>> useless flashlight for the sighted community.
>>>> Take your mobility lessons seriously-- regardless of how inept you
>>>> think
>>>> your instructor is.
>>>> Have friends come out to watch you on your lessons-- I guarantee
>>>> instructors
>>>> attitudes change.
>>>> Don't think that you will never use or need Braille. That is a
>>>> ridiculous
>>>> notion. You may one day need it.
>>>> Become a nerd. Theese days, Geek is Sheek. It is the Information Age!
>>>> The
>>>> more you know the better off you are. Do not become lazy, read ahead
>>>> in
>>>> your texts. Know what the teacher is going to tell you before you hear
>>>> it.
>>>> Spend every minute you have avoiding homework. Get it done early, and
>>>> check
>>>> it over it until you know it's right.
>>>> Forcde your fellow students to work just as hard as you do. Ask
>>>> questions!!
>>>> Answer them when you're pretty sure you know the answer. Even if you
>>>> are
>>>> wrong, it is the simple fact that you appear to be invested and engaged
>>>> in
>>>> your learning that will help you succeed.
>>>> Irrespective of whatever "training school" you go to, ultimately, you
>>>> are
>>>> responsible for what happens to you.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ian C. Bray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Bridget Walker" <bridgetawalker13 at aol.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:30 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> : Hi Katy,
>>>> :
>>>> : I agree with Minh it is down right wrong to ship a student off to a
>>>> school
>>>> for the blind because they refuse to adapt the curriculum but that is
>>>> just
>>>> what happened to me. Do I know it's down right illegal? Absolutely, as
>>>> a
>>>> future educator I will never let something like this happen. People
>>>> always
>>>> ask me if I would teach at a school for the blind because for some
>>>> reason
>>>> they think its easier. I always say no. We need more teachers who are
>>>> blind
>>>> setting an example in the public school.
>>>> : One down side to the training centers and schools for the blind I
>>>> feel
>>>> misleads the public is that people who are blind need to be in their
>>>> own
>>>> little world. A person without sleight can't function without all these
>>>> modifications when we all know that we just use some minor adaptations.
>>>> It's
>>>> a big difference. In fact I know after training I threw some of my
>>>> techniques aside after I got the hang of things and function just as
>>>> any
>>>> other person. I'm sure most everyone on this list is the same.
>>>> :
>>>> : Bridget
>>>> :
>>>> : Sent from my iPad
>>>> :
>>>> : On Nov 12, 2013, at 2:18 PM, Kaiti Shelton
>>>> <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> :
>>>> : > Bridget,
>>>> : >
>>>> : > It is great that you had a good experience at your school for the
>>>> : > blind, but this is a much broader discussion with people across the
>>>> : > country speaking about what they've seen from various schools. Of
>>>> : > course, like everything else, schools for the blind are certainly
>>>> not
>>>> : > created equal, and some are better than others. It sounds like you
>>>> : > happened to be in one of the better ones. I have heard horror
>>>> stories
>>>> : > from people at several state schools, and even know older people
>>>> who
>>>> : > are very sad about the decline in quality they have seen in there
>>>> : > almamaders. Apparently, back in the day OSSB was really good, and
>>>> now
>>>> : > for the most part it's something that parents try to avoid because
>>>> : > independence is not fostered there and expectations are very low.
>>>> I
>>>> : > don't know what you were referring to when you said mainstreamed
>>>> kids
>>>> : > are exempt from taking things like foreign language; in Ohio at
>>>> least,
>>>> : > it is a state requirement that all students take at least two years
>>>> of
>>>> : > a foreign language in order to graduate. I do know of one blind
>>>> : > person who somehow weasled out of the requirement, but I know
>>>> plenty
>>>> : > more who are well-versed in conversational Spanish because they've
>>>> : > taken it for years. I took 3 myself, and even was allowed to be in
>>>> : > the class that started it a year early; I did well enough to
>>>> qualify
>>>> : > for AP, but the course conflicted with another AP class that I
>>>> could
>>>> : > apply towards my major so I took it to save time in college.
>>>> : >
>>>> : > Minh commented on something that I missed before, and her comment
>>>> made
>>>> : > me cringe because she was right. In reference to school districts
>>>> : > sending kids off to the school for the blind to get them out of
>>>> their
>>>> : > hair, I'll add that in addition to what Minh said that that is
>>>> : > illegal, and any school district that does that can and should be
>>>> : > served with court papers for an ADA suit because that is blatant
>>>> : > descrimination.
>>>> : >
>>>> : > On 11/12/13, Beth Taurasi <denverqueen1107 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> : >> On 11/11/2013 2:15 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
>>>> : >>> Hi all,
>>>> : >>>
>>>> : >>> I will admit upfront that I did not read this entire thread, as I
>>>> am
>>>> : >>> trying to type a quick reply between classes, but here is what my
>>>> : >>> parents thought and what I believe as well.
>>>> : >>>
>>>> : >>> I'm not in any way knocking training centers; I think they're
>>>> great
>>>> : >>> for those who need or prefer to get the training they need in
>>>> that
>>>> : >>> manner. I think that choice is totally subjective to the
>>>> individual
>>>> : >>> person.
>>>> : >>>
>>>> : >>> However, in terms of schools for the blind, I have always been
>>>> : >>> thurroughly confused as to their purpose. Like others I've
>>>> talked
>>>> to,
>>>> : >>> going to the school for the blind was a bad thing---a threat my
>>>> mom
>>>> : >>> used to kick me into gear as a child. If I didn't want to do my
>>>> : >>> homework, she'd threaten to send me to the Ohio State School for
>>>> the
>>>> : >>> Blind, where people would make me do it, and I wouldn't get the
>>>> choice
>>>> : >>> of doing it right after school or later before bed. My mom also
>>>> : >>> wanted to instill the idea that I could be independent in me at a
>>>> very
>>>> : >>> early age, so the idea of having someone else be so custodial
>>>> over
>>>> me
>>>> : >>> made me instantly do whatever it was that I didn't want to do at
>>>> the
>>>> : >>> time.
>>>> : >>>
>>>> : >>> In reality, my parents thought very briefly about sending me to
>>>> the
>>>> : >>> state school when I was young, but a blind woman they consulted
>>>> on
>>>> the
>>>> : >>> matter said I was too bright for it. I have the impression that
>>>> most
>>>> : >>> schools for the blind provide sub-par academics, and while a much
>>>> : >>> larger portion of their student bodies have multiple disabilities
>>>> in
>>>> : >>> addition to blindness, my parents did not want that to hold me
>>>> back
>>>> : >>> from reaching my potential. So, they enrolled me in my local
>>>> : >>> elementary school, and kept me in the public school system from
>>>> : >>> pre-school to graduation. From what I've seen and heard this is
>>>> the
>>>> : >>> case for an ever increasing number of blind students, who are
>>>> capable
>>>> : >>> of doing the same work---even being labeled as gifted and going
>>>> on
>>>> to
>>>> : >>> be honors and AP students in high school. Some of these kids do
>>>> not
>>>> : >>> have the opportunities to do AP courses at schools for the blind,
>>>> and
>>>> : >>> miss out on time and money-saving opportunities for college in
>>>> the
>>>> : >>> process.
>>>> : >>>
>>>> : >>> I disagree that going to a school for the blind hinders one's
>>>> ability
>>>> : >>> to get involved in extracurriculars, even when you specifically
>>>> talk
>>>> : >>> about sports. My parents found non-profit organizations which
>>>> hosted
>>>> : >>> sporting events for kids with disabilities and they worked out
>>>> fine
>>>> : >>> for me. Top Soccer was one I and a few friends of mine
>>>> participated
>>>> : >>> in, and I did Special Olympics swimming when I was in middle
>>>> school
>>>> : >>> too. I think the advantage of doing sports through these
>>>> : >>> organizations rather than as a student at a school for the blind
>>>> is
>>>> : >>> that you gain perspective on people with other disabilities; one
>>>> of
>>>> my
>>>> : >>> best friends in soccer was a boy who used a walker, and we became
>>>> a
>>>> : >>> tag team on the field. My job was to find the ball and get it
>>>> down
>>>> : >>> field, then I would pass it to him and he'd take shots at the
>>>> goal.
>>>> : >>> So, it was a nice way for us to learn that in spite of our
>>>> : >>> disabilities, we could still be successful, probably the design
>>>> of
>>>> our
>>>> : >>> parents. I also getting really mad at a kid on the same team who
>>>> was
>>>> : >>> the coach's son, because he would always push me down for what I
>>>> : >>> thought was no apparent reason. It took me a while to understand
>>>> that
>>>> : >>> he wasn't doing it to be mean or that he really couldn't help it,
>>>> but
>>>> : >>> once I got it I was able to understand him and others like him
>>>> better.
>>>> : >>> Even after I stopped participating in sports specifically set up
>>>> for
>>>> : >>> kids with disabilities to participate, I still found activities
>>>> to
>>>> do
>>>> : >>> at school. I was a member of the Academic Quiz Team, the drama
>>>> club
>>>> : >>> and in the cast of a Shakespeare play, and even did marching band
>>>> : >>> without assistance. I don't think you should expect adaptations
>>>> or
>>>> : >>> modifications to be provided for you like they are at the schools
>>>> for
>>>> : >>> the blind, and doing these things while taking a trial and error
>>>> : >>> approach to finding ways to do them as well as sighted
>>>> classmates,
>>>> is
>>>> : >>> one of the best ways to learn how to do it with other things in
>>>> the
>>>> : >>> future. Example, in quiz team I got my study packets in braille,
>>>> and
>>>> : >>> read books on subjects that other kids weren't as familiar on,
>>>> like
>>>> : >>> Genetics, Music History, and Anatomy to make up for the other
>>>> subjects
>>>> : >>> I didn't have as much access to. This worked out really well in
>>>> cases
>>>> : >>> when the category was, "Composers from the 1600s," or "Anatomy of
>>>> the
>>>> : >>> eye." In marching band I worked with my director to come up with
>>>> a
>>>> : >>> way for me to read the field diagrams, which to my knowledge is a
>>>> : >>> totally original system based on what my needs were and the
>>>> solutions
>>>> : >>> we came up with to work.
>>>> : >>>
>>>> : >>> I also think it is the responsibility of the parents to do a lot
>>>> of
>>>> :>>> the training for their child. I know my parents did it for me,
>>>> and
>>>> : >>> although I resisted at times I'm thankful for what they did to
>>>> help
>>>> me
>>>> : >>> learn to be independent. On that same note, I disagree with the
>>>> claim
>>>> : >>> that blind people cannot teach themselves how to do things, as I
>>>> : >>> believe there should come a point where mom and dad should step
>>>> back,
>>>> : >>> and you should have the confidence in your abilities to try to
>>>> learn
>>>> : >>> to do things yourself. That is what I'm doing now with cooking,
>>>> and
>>>> I
>>>> : >>> love how I'm teaching myself. Have I burned things? Yes. Have
>>>> I
>>>> had
>>>> : >>> to put meat back on the stove to cook it a little longer because
>>>> I
>>>> : >>> misjudged how cooked it really was? Yes, but it's through
>>>> experience
>>>> : >>> that we learn, and sometimes doing things ourselves is in our own
>>>> : >>> favor. In the cooking vein, I've asked my mom to teach me
>>>> before,
>>>> but
>>>> : >>> she's always been busy, or when we have cooked she usually has
>>>> ended
>>>> : >>> up taking over. She also has a fear of me getting burned, so
>>>> when
>>>> I
>>>> : >>> got to college and wanted to make a burger, I didn't let the fact
>>>> that
>>>> : >>> my mother never taught me hold me back from getting what I
>>>> wanted,
>>>> : >>> even if my first attempt was not perfect. Different parents will
>>>> : >>> teach their blind children different things, and sometimes they
>>>> have
>>>> : >>> one thing they don't do as well as others in that area. When
>>>> those
>>>> : >>> weak areas become apparent and one has the resources and
>>>> capability
>>>> to
>>>> : >>> teach themself to make up for it, I think they should because
>>>> : >>> ultimately it is their independence that is effected.
>>>> : >>>
>>>> : >>> I do not regret my parents decision to put me in public school,
>>>> : >>> because in spite of the rough patches where I didn't have a
>>>> textbook
>>>> : >>> for my last year of Spanish, or my parents were duking it out in
>>>> an
>>>> : >>> IEP meeting, I developed self-advocacy, independence, and
>>>> : >>> communication skills which are serving me well in college an hour
>>>> away
>>>> : >>> from my family. Even in cooking I am becoming more
>>>> self-sufficient,
>>>> : >>> and I'm not afraid to figure things out as I go, problem-solve,
>>>> and
>>>> : >>> make them work. That, I think, is a skill that is lacking at the
>>>> : >>> schools of the blind since the staff is much more custodial. I
>>>> could
>>>> : >>> be wrong there, but that's what I've seen from my state school at
>>>> : >>> least.
>>>> : >>>
>>>> : >>> Just my thoughts.
>>>> : >>> On 11/11/13, Misty Dawn Bradley <mistydbradley at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> : >>>> RJ,
>>>> : >>>> Your friend may also be able to speak to the director of
>>>> whichever
>>>> : >>>> center
>>>> : >>>> she would like to attend, and arrangements may be able to be
>>>> made
>>>> for
>>>> her
>>>> : >>>> to
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> bring her child with her. This probably would not work in a
>>>> dormitory
>>>> : >>>> setting, but since the NFB centers use apartments instead of
>>>> : >>>> dormitories,
>>>> : >>>> sometimes, it can be worked out for a parent to bring their
>>>> child
>>>> to
>>>> : >>>> stay
>>>> : >>>> with them in the apartment while they attend the center. Your
>>>> friend
>>>> may
>>>> : >>>> have to work out child care or after school care for the child
>>>> while
>>>> she
>>>> : >>>> is
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> attending center classes during the day, but the director of the
>>>> center
>>>> : >>>> may
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> be able to refer her to resources she can use for that or work
>>>> with
>>>> her
>>>> : >>>> on
>>>> : >>>> that aspect so she will be able to finish her training
>>>> successfully.
>>>> : >>>> I am currently going through this myself, as I am a single
>>>> mother,
>>>> but
>>>> : >>>> the
>>>> : >>>> director has been willing to allow me to bring my child and also
>>>> help
>>>> me
>>>> : >>>> work out the child care situation so that I will have the
>>>> opportunity
>>>> to
>>>> : >>>> attend the center and get the training I need. I am planning to
>>>> attend
>>>> : >>>> next
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> year, so I am not there yet, but the director has been very open
>>>> to
>>>> me
>>>> : >>>> bringing my child and has assured me that we will work
>>>> everything
>>>> out
>>>> so
>>>> : >>>> I
>>>> : >>>> can attend. I am just in the process of getting VR in my state
>>>> to
>>>> allow
>>>> : >>>> me
>>>> : >>>> to go. The one I am trying to attend is the Colorado Center, but
>>>> your
>>>> : >>>> friend
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> may be able to discuss her situation with any of the directors
>>>> of
>>>> any
>>>> of
>>>> : >>>> the
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> centers she would like to attend, and they will probably work
>>>> with
>>>> her
>>>> : >>>> on
>>>> : >>>> it.
>>>> : >>>> Thanks,
>>>> : >>>> Misty
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> : >>>> From: Steve Jacobson
>>>> : >>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:44 PM
>>>> : >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> : >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> RJ,
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> It is really hard to know what is going to work in an individual
>>>> case
>>>> : >>>> such
>>>> : >>>> as that of your friend. In general,
>>>> : >>>> though, one really has to weigh what learning certain skills
>>>> well
>>>> might
>>>> : >>>> mean
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> for bringing up a child in the long
>>>> : >>>> run. I believe, for example, that it is pretty hard to become a
>>>> : >>>> confident
>>>> : >>>> independent traveler without putting in
>>>> : >>>> some serious time learning and experiencing. If one is not a
>>>> confident
>>>> : >>>> traveler, for example, one is going to
>>>> : >>>> find it more difficult to get one's child where that child needs
>>>> to
>>>> be,
>>>> : >>>> or
>>>> : >>>> to be there for that child. Your
>>>> : >>>> friend may not have had any options in terms of family who could
>>>> take
>>>> : >>>> care
>>>> : >>>> of the child, and there could be other
>>>> : >>>> considerations, but to simply state that one can't leave one's
>>>> child
>>>> to
>>>> : >>>> take
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> training seems very short-sighted to
>>>> : >>>> me, and I am a parent so I am not unfamiliar with the dilema.
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> Best regards,
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:05:28 -0500, RJ Sandefur wrote:
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>> Men, Thank you for that point. My friend Rohanda went blind
>>>> four
>>>> years
>>>> : >>>>> ago.
>>>> : >>>>> Her daughter is Ten years old. Our ehab agency wanted to send
>>>> her
>>>> to
>>>> a
>>>> : >>>>> training center. She doesn't want to leave her child. RJ
>>>> : >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> : >>>>> From: "minh ha" <minh.ha927 at gmail.com>
>>>> : >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> : >>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> : >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 12:33 AM
>>>> : >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Training centers not the real world
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>> All the proponents of training centers, NFB or otherwise keep
>>>> saying
>>>> : >>>>> how going to one will give blind individuals the skills they
>>>> need
>>>> to
>>>> : >>>>> gain employment or to be successful. I'm just wondering how
>>>> these
>>>> : >>>>> success stories are measured? Do the majority of graduates gain
>>>> : >>>>> employment afterwards because of their new found independence
>>>> skills
>>>> : >>>>> and are these numbers higher than those that do not attend
>>>> training
>>>> : >>>>> centers? Maybe it's different for me because I had vision for
>>>> the
>>>> : >>>>> first few years of my life, but all the skills that I've
>>>> acquired
>>>> over
>>>> : >>>>> the years, I learned from my family and friends. I remember
>>>> growing
>>>> : >>>>> up, cooking was one of the activities that my best friend and I
>>>> : >>>>> experimented together; she didn't know cooking skills either so
>>>> we
>>>> : >>>>> played around in the kitchen and taught ourselves how to use a
>>>> stove,
>>>> : >>>>> etc. I think we place too much responsibility on others--if I
>>>> want
>>>> to
>>>> : >>>>> learn something, I teach myself or I ask someone who knows it
>>>> to
>>>> teach
>>>> : >>>>> me. Furthermore, I can't see myself taking 6-9 months to
>>>> essentially
>>>> : >>>>> remove myself from society to focus on blindness skills so I
>>>> can
>>>> gain
>>>> : >>>>> employment. I have had many internships and opportunities in
>>>> college
>>>> : >>>>> because I actually go out there and network and present myself
>>>> to
>>>> : >>>>> potential employers. My point is experience is the best
>>>> teacher--I
>>>> can
>>>> : >>>>> learn all the independence skills I need at a center, but it's
>>>> not
>>>> : >>>>> going to do me any good without the experience.
>>>> : >>>>> Minh
>>>> : >>>>> On 11/10/13, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> : >>>>>> Hi all,
>>>> : >>>>>> good points thus far, and great discussion.
>>>> : >>>>>> The idea of schools for the blind (at least as I understand
>>>> them)
>>>> : >>>>>> is
>>>> : >>>>> that
>>>> : >>>>>> students in these schools may get the proper instruction in
>>>> skills
>>>> : >>>>>> that
>>>> : >>>>>> would allow them to be as successful in the classroom as
>>>> their
>>>> : >>>>> classmates.
>>>> : >>>>>> They may also benefit from gaining access to sports that are
>>>> adapted
>>>> : >>>>>> for
>>>> : >>>>> the
>>>> : >>>>>> blind where in the public school setting these things are not
>>>> always
>>>> : >>>>> readily
>>>> : >>>>>> available .
>>>> : >>>>>> In the training center environment, you are learning skills
>>>> that
>>>> : >>>>>> will
>>>> : >>>>> help
>>>> : >>>>>> you become confident and competent enough to compete and
>>>> succeed
>>>> : >>>>>> in
>>>> : >>>>> the
>>>> : >>>>>> world. in our NFB training centers, we learn the skills that
>>>> enable
>>>> : >>>>>> us
>>>> : >>>>> to
>>>> : >>>>>> be successful and gain the attitude and belief that not
>>>> only
>>>> can
>>>> : >>>>>> we
>>>> : >>>>>> lead productive successful, and meaningful lives, but that
>>>> this
>>>> : >>>>>> should
>>>> : >>>>>> be the exact expectation we should have for ourselves.
>>>> : >>>>>> So, while the implication one might get is that such learning
>>>> : >>>>> environments
>>>> : >>>>>> shelter people from the real world , it is my view that
>>>> generally
>>>> : >>>>>> speaking they can serve to help you be prepared for that
>>>> real
>>>> world
>>>> : >>>>>> in
>>>> : >>>>> a
>>>> : >>>>>> way that matriculating through mainstream schooling might
>>>> leave
>>>> you
>>>> : >>>>>> otherwise ill equipped to do.
>>>> : >>>>>> Darian
>>>> : >>>>>>
>>>> : >>>>>>
>>>> : >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info
>>>> for
>>>> : >>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> : >>>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/minh.ha927%40gmail.com
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>> --
>>>> : >>>>> "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in
>>>> the
>>>> dusty
>>>> : >>>>> recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was
>>>> vanity:
>>>> : >>>>> but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act
>>>> on
>>>> : >>>>> their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible." T. E.
>>>> Lawrence
>>>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info
>>>> for
>>>> : >>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> : >>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gm
>>>> : >>>>> ail.com
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> : >>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> : >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info
>>>> for
>>>> : >>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> : >>>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info
>>>> for
>>>> : >>>> nabs-l:
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mistydbradley%40gmail.com
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> : >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> : >>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> : >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> : >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>> info
>>>> for
>>>> : >>>> nabs-l:
>>>> : >>>>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
>>>> : >> Hi, Misty and all,
>>>> : >> St. Augustine's School for the Blind is indeed too custodial for
>>>> me
>>>> and
>>>> : >> too conservative for others. I met my love and life at the
>>>> Colorado
>>>> : >> Center for the Blind, and it's really a nice thing for both of us,
>>>> but
>>>> : >> then a sighted person tried to reteach the skills because the
>>>> things
>>>> : >> were not clean enough. Like the shower or toilet. I was cleaning,
>>>> and
>>>> : >> she would judge why or what was clean. I ended up saying, "Forget
>>>> it.
>>>> : >> This is not going to work." I shouldn't have done it, but I"m
>>>> being
>>>> : >> alienated by others because I have long term care. I already knew
>>>> I
>>>> was
>>>> : >> diagnosed with bipolar, and this oculd be a problem. Blake and I
>>>> are
>>>> : >> trying to work something out sohe can work and so can I, but
>>>> workplaces
>>>> : >> are wary of having blind and something else people in them, so Idk
>>>> why
>>>> I
>>>> : >> went to CCB in the first place, but then as I continue to cook for
>>>> : >> myself, yes, I realize it's the best choice I made. However, my
>>>> parents
>>>> : >> still have a legal situation to work out, and they still try to
>>>> refuse
>>>> : >> to get to know the person I wish tospend my life with, and so on.
>>>> They
>>>> : >> still believe the thoughts and attitudes that their baby girl is
>>>> : >> property, not a person. I can't be my own person in their mind,
>>>> and
>>>> it's
>>>> : >> really hard for me to understand why. Training centers can't
>>>> possibly
>>>> : >> be a real world thing because in hick town Florida, it's
>>>> definitely
>>>> not
>>>> : >> real. People take your rights from you as a disabled person, and
>>>> because
>>>> : >> of that, I've been more anxious about skills than others, and I'd
>>>> rather
>>>> : >> have someone clean the place up than have a sighted person walk in
>>>> and
>>>> : >> say, "This place is filthy/not clean enough."
>>>> : >> Beth
>>>> : >>
>>>> : >> _______________________________________________
>>>> : >> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> : >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> : >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> : >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> : >> nabs-l:
>>>> : >>
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
>>>> : >
>>>> : >
>>>> : > --
>>>> : > Kaiti
>>>> : >
>>>> : > _______________________________________________
>>>> : > nabs-l mailing list
>>>> : > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> : > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> : > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>> for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> : >
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bridgetawalker13%40aol.com
>>>> :
>>>> : _______________________________________________
>>>> : nabs-l mailing list
>>>> : nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> : http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> : To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> :
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/i.c.bray%40win.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tyler%40tysdomain.com
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Take care,
>>> Ty
>>> http://tds-solutions.net
>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he
>>> that
>>> dares not reason is a slave.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/crazy4clarinet104%40gmail.com
>>>
>
>
>>--
>>Kaiti
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
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>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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